January 14, 2022 • 52 mins
Lisa is joined by her bestie Lisa Hochberger, who’s a sex therapist. Lisa Hochberger shares her own story of feeling sexually unworthy because of her weight, and how she broke free from those limiting beliefs to live her truthiest life.
In this episode we:
- Gain tools on how talk to our kids about sex/pleasure
- Learn how anxiety impacts our sexuality
- Discuss how sex can be self-centered
- Explore the purpose of boobs in our culture vs. others
- Unpack the intersect between and DIET CULTURE AND SEX
- And more!
Guest Info: Lisa@wisersextherapy.com
Instagram: @Lisahochbergertherapy
The Truthiest Life on Instagram @thetruthiestlife
Host @lisahayim
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Edited by Houston Tilley
Intro Jingle by Alyssa Chase aka @findyoursails
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
M hm, No, It'll be all right, even when times
gethart and feel you're in the due Cusye, just how
beautiful I can be when you soph in your heart,
(00:22):
you can findly star you're to see. Is life? Hello? Truth?
Is life? Fam, Welcome back and happy new year. We're
settling into two. And if you're anything like me, maybe
you thought that this year would be magically different than
(00:42):
one and but turns out it's not. And I think
a lot of people are going through collective pain, grief suffering,
this feeling like COVID is never gonna end. I am
certainly no stranger to seasonal depression and what I kind
of call functional depression, but I think a lot of people,
no matter kind of where you fall with your past history,
(01:03):
could understand that this is situationally a very depressing and
hard time. And being kind of candid right now to
kind of share that I'm in the thick of it
and to you all who show up here every week,
I am and will continue to put out fantastic content
and show up to my job just like all of
(01:24):
you who are struggling but also showing up to your
own jobs. Um, And I share that to kind of
showcase that even though I'm showing up and I'm so
charged positively by these conversations, you know, behind the scenes,
and there's the struggle bus and I'm on it right now,
And that's okay to to admit and and kind of
say that everything you see or here that gets produced
(01:47):
published online, um is certainly truthful. But I think you
deserve to know that underneath all of that is the
same emotions that that you're feeling. And I hope that
this podcast can serve as an element to take you
out of the trance, just like it does that for me.
This year. I focus that I would like to bring
to the podcast if I can, is to explore sexual health,
(02:12):
sexual wellness, sexuality in general. I think that it's a
super taboo topic or we all have some sort of
a relationship to how we perceive the way the topic
should be addressed or the way it should be even
physically done. And it's a topic that I was certainly
uncomfortable with for a long time. But as I grow
(02:32):
more into my body wellness, becoming a mom, all these
things going through the life cycle, it becomes crystal clear
to me that the way we seek pleasure from one
thing defines how we seek pleasure from another and the
way that we accept pleasure in our life from one
thing allows for pleasure in other areas. So allowing ourselves
(02:55):
to get pleasure from a cup of tea, coffee, chocolate,
to me, is the same as allowing ourselves to get
pleasure from sex, sexual activity, or perhaps even if it's
done by yourself masturbation. Again, like, still kind of working
through this myself, my own discomfort around these these topics,
because I too am a product of a society where
it was really hushed, and anything that's hushed really suppresses
(03:19):
us from being who we were meant to be. And
this upcoming episode is with one of my best friends
in real life, Lisa Hawkburger, who's a sex therapist, and
hearing from her, which you will in just a moment,
about how her weight and diet culture really contributed to
her own sexual desire and preferences that she suppressed really
(03:40):
illustrates to me everything that I kind of just discussed,
and how wellness is really full circle and we're not
really talking about wellness unless we talk about all the
things that humans do, drink, eat, breathe think. So that
is a topic that I personally would like to continue
to explore to have X spurts on to break down
(04:01):
this topic. I have mentioned in this episode again coming
up that if it's uncomfortable for you, I invite you
to stay. I invite you to bring curiosity to it.
So many of us have ideas about sex that stem
from the way we were raised or religion that, um,
it could make it really uncomfortable. And in this episode
with Lisa, we even talked about something that I did
(04:23):
semi recently that really portrays my discomfort with this topic publicly,
and I'm leaving it in the episode because I want
to invite you to see that I'm along for this
ride with you. So I would love to hear some
feedback about this episode or if you'd like to explore
this as we make our way through two guests and content,
(04:44):
because I think we can make a real impact and
change and use sex as a way to live our
most authentic lives. All right, let's jump into this episode
with my dear friend Lisa hawk Burger. Welcome back to
the Truth is Life, Everybody. Today's a really special episode
for me because it's with a personal friend of mine.
(05:05):
More than a personal friend, We've done huge life things together.
We went to college together and then we studied abroad together,
doing this program called Semester at Sea where we went
around the world on like a cruise ship and we
were roommates in a very intimate setting. We've experienced, you know,
different cultures together, gotten into precarious dangerous situations when traveling
(05:29):
through those countries. We almost capsized ones remember that I
fell out of bed. You were strapped to yours. So anyway,
let me introduce Lisa hawk Burger. We're both Lisa's. We
both it confused, a lot of people were both light
We're both Lisa Beth. There's a lot of similarities but
a lot of differences between us two. But nonetheless Lisa
(05:53):
is the best. Who's the coolest woman? You're a woman
now recently engaged and a sex therapist. And Lisa, if
you would have asked me to predict your career in
two thousand nine when we went all across the world,
I don't know if I could have ever landed on
you being a sex therapistiness. It's so funny. It's kind
(06:14):
of like the reason why I went into this is
because I was so romantically curious about what was going
on and sexually curious, but harboring that within me because
I wanted to be whatever was the normal twentiesothing at
the time, and then I let it all out after
(06:35):
I grew up a little. I mean, it's fascinating because,
like I said, like I'm a pretty intuitive person. I
know who people are without them having to speak. But
I didn't pick up on that energy and frequency of yours.
It's so interesting that you're suppressing it. Why do you
think you felt like you had to suppress it for
so long? Really interesting talking to you about this, Lisa,
(06:55):
because I've known you for so long. But when I
was young, growing up in Long Island, and I was
not a stick skinny girl, I really didn't want to
admit to myself that I wanted. Well, I admitted it
to myself, but I didn't wanted to admit to others
how badly I wanted romance boyfriend and it became my mission.
I loved watching rum comes. I fantasized about some ideal
(07:19):
that is not true at all, but I became as
a defense mechanism, the matchmaker, trying to set everyone up,
and which I still love to do. But I didn't
want to feel bad that no one would want to
be with me because I didn't feel like I was
this prototypical Long Island girl. Right. So Lisa and I
actually knew each other in high school, different high schools,
(07:41):
But that is actually how I would accurately describe you.
You were really good at having male friends as friends,
and you were really good at setting them up with
your friends. And it was lost on me that that
came from a place of they would never want to
be with me, so I'll set them up with friends
as a way to avoid potential rejection. Yeah, and a
(08:05):
lot of them I didn't even think of like that
because I wouldn't even let myself go there. I wouldn't
even let myself be like, oh, this person is attractive,
because I didn't even want to hit on that rejection piece.
That totally transformed with time and life and experience. But
high school, I look back on it, it was so
much fun. I know. I wasn't authentically myself, so well
(08:28):
is anybody you know, and especially like you said, growing
up in a Long Island where we're from, and everybody
kind of looks stick skinny and wears the same clothes
and all of that you know, you were still friends
with everybody that looked like that, and you you always
were the nicest person. But I know that your weight
was really challenging for you. It's something that you were
very kind of open about. At the same time, it
(08:51):
seems like you have overcome that a lot. And before
we even get into your specialty, I think a lot
of people can relate to diet after die. I mean
you were on crazy diets, like you were eating gel
packets of protein from one nutritionists. I remember that. I
mean you were always on some sort of a diet.
(09:12):
How have you found comfort in your physical body? Thank you? Really,
I've learned from you and a lot of people about
how diets truly do not work. But aside from what
I externally looked like, from all my research, from our
my studies, I started studying really intensely dating relationships, what
(09:33):
people want attraction, and I realized there were people of
all body types, you know, married around the world, in
New York, in Long Island even right, And so I
was like, what is it? And I lost all this
weight and I didn't find a boyfriend. I really thought
when I lost weight, I would find a boyfriend. And
that was like the cure to my problems. As soon
as I found that, and I started to realize that
(09:55):
people were attracted to me when I was heavier. That's
actually when I've always had my Boyfrien, when I was
heavier than the skinnier guys. And I realized people who
want to date me will date me, people who don't
want to date me won't date me. But I can't
try to be someone I'm not. And I also know
that there is so much anxiety relationship with sexuality. I
(10:17):
was learning how to get in touch with what is sexuality,
how do we relax and enjoy pleasure? And I was
learning that you cannot do that when you're anxious and
self conscious. You lose out on play, on fun. And
we'll get into that later, but that became so important
to me. I wanted to learn how to enjoy one
of the pleasures of life, which is my own sexuality.
(10:40):
I think this episode is really timely during a very
stressful time of COVID and everything, and just at the
time of this recording, at least, the world feels super
heavy and for me, despite having a baby and going
through a huge joy in my life, there's really not
a lot of pleasure in my life, and I will
admit to my audience and to you that I'm also
(11:02):
not inviting it in in a very sexual way right
now because of my anxiety, because of my exhaustion. And
I could also admit that I know I need to
because healthy sexuality, whether with a partner or yourself or whatever,
it is a conversation that I think I felt too
taboo to talk about on platforms for a long time,
(11:24):
is a critical piece to wellness, of feeling, happiness, of
getting the chemicals that we're supposed to be making um.
And I think there's a lot of shame around this conversation,
whether it's about masturbation or intercourse or intercourse that sends
a little uh sexiety, you know, sex or um, multiple partners,
(11:46):
you know, whatever, whatever it is. And I'm really enjoying
how the conversation is shifting in the in my world
to include that, because it's really challenging everything I ever
thought of out when it came to what it means
to be sexually healthy. And there's so many ways that
that could look when we're not confined to that narrow
(12:09):
way that we were taught. So actually, I am not
that familiar with what sex therapy actually is. Is it
the same thing as couples therapy. I don't mean to
hit on people who call themselves a couples therapists that
don't have sexuality training, But in my opinion, every therapist
should have a sexuality training, right because I have clients
(12:31):
coming to me all the time that have been in
therapy for ten years, in marriages, having affairs, that have
never talked about sex with their therapists. Sex is a
for lack of we'll call it. How about that people
come in they think they have a problem with sex.
A lack of sex begins with an emotional mismatch or
not a connection. There's something lacking within the connection. People
(12:53):
often say, what am I missing? So what is a
sex therapist? A sex therapist is truly a regular therapist.
I've kind of training, but I have all this background
in human sexuality. I've studied sexuality, alternative sexualities. I understand
what our heaths of sexuality are, not just our sexual orientation,
(13:13):
not just sexual health and reproduction, the difference between sexual intimacy,
what pleasure is what in hunger. I'll get into that
when we talk about you know a little later, but
what it is to want touch or not want touch,
and our sexuality is largely based on the way we
developed as children, so sometimes it means relearning things that
(13:34):
we learned as a child, like how to be a
lady or how to be a dude. Yeah, that's really fascinating.
So I actually asked you, is it the same as
couples therapy? And you said yes, But it sounds like
the answer is really no, because when I think of
couples therapy, I think of whether it's pre marital or marital.
It's about sitting in the room and talking about the
issues that you're going through or maybe not necessarily the issues,
(13:58):
but the very fast things discussing the sexual nature of
your relationship together in a safe container. To be clear,
a sex therapist is a therapist, but not all therapists
who do couples are sex therapists. Is that correct? That's
exactly true. And one major thing about sex therapists that
(14:20):
they've been through sexual attitude reassessment training, meaning we have
been exposed to whatever you can think of the most
alternative thing. People could say things to me, they're like, oh,
we think you're gonna laugh, even just like friends, right,
I don't laugh. I don't have a reaction. I know
that there are various ways to express ourselves actually, and
(14:40):
I think they're wonderful. As long as it's consensual, it's legal,
it's not anything related to minors. It's you know, one
of consensual sex. I don't care what you're doing, as
long as you can be open and get in touch
with what I like to call your erotic self, or
you know that person you might have been when you
(15:01):
were a little little kid that your mom told you
how to behave and you stopped being that little kid
because you had to keep up with the society. Right,
you learn the boundaries and the confines to live in.
You want to take them back to that place before
they learned the box to live in, so that they
can freely express what they want to say, and you
create that safe container. Now it seems kind of obvious
(15:24):
that a couple or a I think there's a threatle
when there's three people can would go maybe see a
sex therapist, But can an individual go see a sex
therapist on their own. I see a lot of individuals
and a lot of couples A lot of times it's
really important to figure out what is going on with
yourself first before you introduce it to a partner. And
(15:46):
some of my clients are single people that are dating
but afraid of their sexuality or experience pain with sexuality
and I think there's something wrong with them, or they
don't feel desire and they're like, I'm just not sexual
in my a sexual or they're curious about who they're
attracted to. So there's a lot of exploring to be done.
And also it is really hard up there for men
(16:07):
and women dating. So a lot of people dating thinking like, oh,
it's me, there's something I'm doing, um, And it's kind
of reframing what is true because dating is a very
very new thing. Marriage was not about love until the
nine hundreds. It was really I mean sort of. It
was introduced in the Lady eighteen hundreds that marriage wasn't
(16:30):
about love. I mean that marriage that there could be love,
And I think that the late like is when they
introduced the term night and shining armor, but knights were
a thing of medieval times, so night in shining arm
or fairy tale. It's an interesting I could go in
all different angles. And that's why sex therapists are so
interesting because we understand sexuality as being so many things
(16:52):
more than a penis coming together with either another penis
or of volva or whatever it is. I'm going to
have that. Yeah, it's so much to to on earth.
I know that my own. You know, for anybody listening
who may feel uncomfortable during this episode, you're probably not alone.
At my bachelotte party, Lisa came and I'm a very
(17:14):
atypical bachelorette. I do not like the strip I was
very against having a stripper or you know, all the
things that would happen at a bachelorette. But because of
Lisa's training, she decided to give us a banana demonstration.
You know, you can kind of lock that through yourself. Um,
but it made me really uncomfortable during that, and I
(17:37):
kind of voice that here so that our listeners maybe
if there's any time that you want to shy away
from this conversation, to know that you're not alone, and
we can kind of sit with the discomfort and hopefully
bring curiosity to that. Why did that make me feel uncomfortable?
Is it a bad thing that that made me feel uncomfortable? Um?
Is there something to learn from that? And I hope
(17:58):
that throughout this conversation and you are able to kind
of bring that there as well. Let's talk about the
importance of play in a relationship, because I'm a year
and a half married in a pandemic and there's not
(18:21):
much play outside of the bedroom. For sure. It's a
very high stressed time of our life. Uh, and I
would like to learn the importance of play. So play
is the most critical factor in a relationship in our lives.
It teaches us how to enjoy things. But again, we
grew up in a society that is pleasure negative. So
(18:45):
I always start with as a child, you see a
little kid, let's say he or she's eating an ice
cream cone. They're really enjoying that ice cream cone, and
you know what, it's all over their face, having the
best time. And then mom start or dad starts telling
you eat that ice cream slower, or that ice creams fattening,
or you should only have a little bit or less
(19:05):
than that, and all of a sudden you're robbed of
like the joy, the play because you're so busy trying
to be whatever is appropriate, be an adult, be an
uptight person. Almost. That's the way I view it. Pleasure
and player interconnected. In order to enjoy our partner, we
have to play with them to get pleasure. So that's
(19:28):
why I talk about play being so related to sexuality,
because we need to get in touch with if we
have a loving partner. Not always do we have that,
but if we're consentually having sex with some one or
in a loving relationship, there is nothing more intimate than
being your inner child in front of your partner. So
if we are a little girl exploring our body and curious,
(19:52):
which often happens, mom's dads walk in on their child
just touching, little boy touching, just being like what is this?
It's not sexual, it's really just like what is this?
This feels good? Then mom says put that away, never
show your penis, never touch your volva, keep that away.
In that moment, there is a sexual negativity getting taught
(20:15):
to that little child that this is this is dangerous
or this is bad and I should not be doing this.
So it depends on how we process. If we're someone
who has obsessive thoughts, we can really take on that
role that like there is something wrong with sex, and
our bodies can react to that and just to kind
of harp on that for a second, because I think
(20:35):
if you're a parent or or an adult that knows
a child, obviously you don't want them walking around rubbing
their private parts or taking it out. You know, given
the norms within our society and what's appropriate and safe,
is there something that you could say or do to
expand that boundary to allow them to be curious and
(20:57):
do that in their own way with out I guess
putting the sexual negative charge to it or Yeah. So
the first thing I'll say is kids don't need an explanation.
They just need one sentence and they'll usually go back
to doing whatever they're doing. And you know, if you
they say, asked, what is sex and you say it's
when a penis goes into a vagina or whatever you
(21:18):
describe a sex, that's not my definition of sex, but
what many people to find a sex. If you just
stop there, the kid is gonna walk away. They're not
even going to really be like, so when do you
do that? How do you do that? Most of the time,
like nine out of ten times, they're just gonna walk
away and be like okay. But then when it comes
to their then playing with their genitals, Wow, what a
(21:40):
beautiful penis? But that's something for you and you can
enjoy that in your private time, and you really want
to encourage that their body is beautiful. You want to
use the words, but encourage them to say, you know
what that is for you, keep that you know that's
your special part, that's for you, and you can explore
are that on your own. I think that sounds really
(22:02):
out there for a lot of parents, though, and I
want to be so transparent that I know that that
may not be easy to do. Yeah, and to really
trust that they are digesting what you're saying and not
impose your own fears out there. That makes that makes
a lot of sense. Earlier on, you mentioned anxiety and
the ability to have sex. Now, I'm somebody who's very
(22:24):
in touch with my emotions and my nervous system, and
as much work as I do to nourish my nervous system,
as I say, and keep myself at baseline or at
least a balance, when I'm anxious, when I'm depressed, when
i'm any really emotion, the last thing I want to
(22:45):
do is have sex. And it's hard to really say, Okay,
I don't want to have sex because I'm anxious, but
my body feels very closed off. What's happening when we're
anxious and what's the relationship to desire at that point.
So we have our autonomic nervous system that I'm sure
(23:07):
Lisa has heard of, but I will just explain briefly.
There's two branches sympathetic, powers sympathetic. When you are anxious, nervous, tired, hungary, exhausted,
your sympathetic nervous system, which is fight or flight, is
on overdrive. It's your survival mechanism, part of your nervous system.
So your powers sympathetic, which regulates you. It's homeostasis. It
(23:27):
makes you feel calm. Your sympathetic nervous system it goes
into survival mode. So when you're anxious, your neurons are
firing to your for your heart rate and your blood
pressure to go up, up, up up up, and in
the process it stops firing neurons to areas that you
don't need. So maybe you've heard stress can help make
people gain weight because you're you don't need to digest
(23:47):
quickly to survive. Same thing for emotional regulation. You don't
need to emotionally regulate to survive. Go to bed angry,
don't ever listen to that BS tail that you should
make up before bed, oh, let yourself regularly it overnight.
But when it comes to the genitals, we pick up
on survival mechanisms. It's directly attached to the nervous system.
(24:08):
So let's say as the child, you grow up in
a very religious community that's telling you that sex is
only to be had in a marriage, or mom told
you do not masturbate. Ever, that is bad. All of
a sudden, you have attached this danger zone to your genitals.
And your genitals are more connected to your nervous system
(24:31):
than they are your brain. So your nervous system might say, constrict, constrict, constrict,
constrict is what I think of pleasure. Negative, no play,
bansion is pleasure. So when your body is open and
you're breathing and you're relaxing, and you're letting your body regulate.
But sometimes it's not that easy. So it goes into
like what is normal for desire and all those topics
(24:55):
that are fun, and perhaps you're feeling anxious from your
current environ mint. But I imagine for both male and
female who may have sexual trauma in their past, the
act of sex might induce anxiety. The act of touch
or potential touch or potential pleasure could actually cause UM.
(25:16):
I don't know if the right word would be like
sexual dysfunction in the male. I would call it a
rectile dysfunction, but maybe not the right term. But I
know that what it feels like as a woman to
shut down, and I know what it looks like for
a man to shut down. But I think there there's
so much to say about that, because is there a
spectrum of sexual trauma that you know, we think of
(25:37):
sexual trauma as being maybe more obvious too obviously horrendous acts,
but a lot of us harness less obvious sexual trauma
that might come up during sex. So, first of all,
erectile unpredictability is what I like to call things associated Okay,
the mind um And we'll get into whether us you know,
(25:58):
we can get into that at another time. It what
I will say is absolutely there's big T trauma and
small T trauma. And that is exactly what I'm talking
about when I say mother sees their child mass already
and goes, oh my god, what are you doing? Stop
that moment in time? Kids are like adults all the time,
are like my parents were fine, Like sex is fine,
and then we get to this moment they've never thought
(26:21):
of that, that moment in time that they have a
memory of that their mother, our father was That's what
we were parents were told to do. It's not their fault,
right like the way we were fond. I just want
any parents who's done this before to not be like,
oh my god, I messed up my kid forever. That's
certainly not true. And none of us are obviously, none
of us are perfect. And everything we do, no matter
who you are, and you know, impacts people around you.
(26:43):
But it's not necessarily and intentionally bad things, So don't
overthink it, parents, But but yes, it's the smallest things
in life that can create memories in our nervous system
to go WHOA, my body needs to go into survival
mode right now. So it's really not even always in
your mind. It's your body's reaction. And the same thing
goes for yeah, not just sexual trauma, but religious for
(27:08):
all different types of things where experiencing. I think this
conversation is so important because without the awareness of what
anxiety is, what it feels like, how it affects your body,
it could continue to your sexual shame. You know, if
you're a male, Mike, I can't. I don't know what's
the right term here for how you can't perform right. Um,
(27:29):
you might continue to perpetuate the anxiety or the same
for a female. But I'm all about that mind body connection.
If you can notice, Hey, I'm anxious right now, and
that's why I don't want to invite pleasure into my life.
I think in the right setting, given the circumstances, you
could also take a moment to calm your nervous system
down and say, Okay, I am anxious, but I also
(27:50):
need some pleasure in my life. Can I recognize that
I'm bringing my anxiety into the bedroom and can I
sidestep it for just a moment to allow something safe
in Yeah. And the first step is stop thinking that
sex is about performance. It's not. It's really about enjoying
and and and Lisa, you didn't do anything wrong in
(28:12):
saying that, right, and that is something that most people
come into my office saying. But it's really about can
I relax and enjoy touch? And it's very tricky for
people with Volvo's because sex is less whatever it looks like.
And I don't even mean internal because internal sex is
usually not what gives women the most pleasure. That's important
(28:34):
for every want to hear. Oh yeah, we can get
into that for a long time. But it is really
the way our bodies work, right It's it's really external
clicked poral pressures. And we can talk about the internal
clitter as people don't even know that they're clitter is
way bigger than just the little part that we see
um and it wraps around the vagina. But I was
(28:55):
really wanting to get into the point that it's really
about getting into our body being mindful. It's almost this
meditative act. What do I feel? Because pleasure is everywhere,
It's in front of us. Right now, I am experiencing
so much pleasure having a conversation with my oldie but
best deleas lely right now, Like this is so fun
for me and we again, our whole society is diet culture.
(29:19):
But I say this to my clients, and I don't
mean food. It's like, do your homework and then you
can have fun. All of a sudden, work becomes this
bad thing. You can enjoy work, what why why not?
Or eat your vegetables and then you can have dessert,
and vegetables become bad dessert becomes the good thing, but
vegetables are delicious. So there's this culture of pleasure negative
(29:39):
through the negative thing and then you can have pleasure.
But for a women, it's really about can I just relax?
And I call it self centered sex for both men
and women. Can I just relax? And can I breathe
and and make noise? And it's really interesting. Sometimes I
have my clients watch fifty Shades of Gray just so
that they can see, you know, the main actor been there.
(30:00):
And a lot of times they're like, oh, it doesn't
feel that good. She was exaggerating. She was making sex
sound like it was the most amazing thing in the world.
And I'm like, yes, but that breath, that noise, that
that is a release that is pleasurable. So there is
a lot to be said about making noise and breathing
in this experience and not worrying is my partner laughing
(30:22):
at me because I'm making a really aware noise. No,
I'm not even focused on my partner right now. I'm
just enjoying what I'm experiencing. Of course, there's ways to
include your partner and and make it a really communicative act,
but communication is not just through the words. It's much
louder our communication through our bodies. Wow, sex is so
(30:42):
much more layered than what we've been taught and the
way it's been simplified and the way it's been for
lack of a better word, over sexualized. Like, there's so
many layers beneath that that is key to our health
and well being and our emotional regulation, whether with a
partner or without. And even hearing you say the words
(31:06):
meditative for yourself and pairing that with the experience, I
think is really important because I loved what you said
when you said, stop thinking sex is about performance, stop
even thinking it's about the other person. Can sex be
a radical act of self care? Whether again, whether it's
masturbation or whether it's with a partner. Can you allow
(31:28):
it to be about you? I think is these are
just the conversations that need to be have because I
truly believe that if we have these conversations, people are
more emotionally regulated as a result, and more emotionally regulated
people means a healthier society when it comes to all
the ways that we function. Like you said that release
(31:49):
of the breath, Like, imagine if people could really get
that release and be less angry starting their day. Um
and I also loved how you framed the idea that, like,
we're pleasure negative of a pleasure negative society, and how
we can get pleasure from everything that we're doing, whether
it's sipping our cup of coffee, having a conversation with
our friends. I know, for one, that I'm very conscious
(32:10):
of my subconscious scurry around feeling good because I need
to get something done on my to do list, or
if I'm like watching a movie, I'm on my phone
at the same time, like I'm I'm afraid to just
be a lot of the times. And that's coming from
somebody who does a lot of the work. So imagine
all the people in the world that are just subconscious
(32:30):
living under this and missing out on all the pleasures
that are around them. Yeah, play living pleasure. It's all
about process. But we get so caught up in like
what things are supposed to be. And unfortunately, nobody taught
us about communication, and nobody taught us about sex. We
only got taught that we're gonna get a disease. So
most women I think that sex is penis and a vagina,
(32:53):
and they they're embarrassed to receive chrono linguists or or
a pleasure because they think, oh, I'm melly on this,
and that that is like the ultimate way, if only, if,
and only when we can like go of a lot
of the anxiety associated that with that that a lot
of women have. That is like the best way for
women to experience pleasure, like nine out of ten times
(33:15):
or nine and I would say nineties seven out of
a hundred times those people. It's very hard for women
to have aginal orgasms like internal orgasms. They can have
things in their in their volva, and you know, that's
a whole another topic. But really I want women out
there to know that if you look at sex as
it being about penis and vagina, it is going to
(33:36):
be really hard for you to get the most out
of your experience, specifically at different points in your life,
like being a new mom. Very hard at first your
vulva and vagina has been medicalized, medicalized for like nine
months ten months. Yeah, And speaking of that topic, which
is where I'm kind of at right now, you would
(33:58):
mentioned that you work with a lot of women who
are experiencing sexual issues after childbirth. I could definitely speak
to sex being and kind of still is four months
right now scary for me. It's it's having a vain
after having a vaginal birth. There's some I wouldn't say
trauma because that doesn't feel like the right word word.
(34:21):
But this isn't just a pleasure center. It performed a
huge task and it changed obviously, you know, and and
maybe there's some feelings of nervousness about that it changed,
that it might not be the same. And I could
hear myself now speaking to you and this kind of
out loud therapy, going back to like sex is not
(34:42):
about performance, Like it's not about performance, and I think
there's a lot to digest out of that. So let's
talk about a lot of postpartum women that you do
work with. What sort of feelings are they experiencing, because
(35:05):
you seem to really digest without having kids of your
own yet that it's a really hard time when it
comes to just about everything, but sex specifically, it's so
hard and everything is sex, our body images sex. When
we are have a newborn, part of our sensuality is
our skin hunger. We crave touch a lot of us,
but when a newborn is hanging on to your boob
or even if you're an operate. Its breastfiting attached to
(35:28):
mom all day right. Sometimes we are touched out, right,
even if we were hardcore cuddlers before baby comes and
we are touched out, So don't come near me. The
biggest problem I hear in sex is making sex a problem.
Sex is to me, evan coming home and giving you
a little massage. That is sex to me. But there's
(35:49):
there's such a narrow definition, and it's unfortunate because a
lot of men have ingrained in them, like and it's
not their fault, but it's a product of time and evolution.
I am a man if I'm having a lot of
sex with my wife and for them because sex it's
kind of I don't want to call it easier, and
I don't want to say this is true for all men,
because that's certainly not true. But they have this process.
(36:11):
They get in erect penis, they have sex, they ejaculate,
and they are like, oh, I had an orgasm. Men
can be multi orgasmic without ejaculating. But because they have
such a process, the mechanical act, it's very obvious to them.
But what I was trying to get into before, it's like,
it's not that obvious for women. So a lot of
times there is desired discrepancy. And so these new moms,
(36:32):
they're like trying to figure out who their body is.
They're like, oh body and my attractive Like what is
going on? Do I like this this person even though
it's like a different size and I'm only okay? Maybe
a lot of them say when I get back in
my new genes, So like, I have to be on
this diet culture again, I'm being bad if I eat
enjoy a bagel or whatever. It is, right, And it's
(36:53):
a lot of pressure. Plus you're trying to keep your
head above water. But it's so hard because you're just
taking care of your kids. And and you know what,
I haven't really spoken that much about or at least
I think about a lot. Like you said, touched out,
Like every mom knows what it feels like to be
touched out, And if you're breastfeeding specifically, it's it's a lot.
Right now, I'm in this weird trying to figure things
(37:14):
out where I'm breastfeeding nursing and I'm pumping six to
seven times a day, and the last thing I want
anyone to do is touch my breasts, and that is
a huge change to have your boobs, which were part
of the pleasure experience, become off limits and also served
this secondary function. And I remember distinctly when you and
(37:36):
I traveled to Africa, a lot of the African culture
that we got to experience was topless, Like the women
just walked around topless, and I just thought it was beautiful.
And in that moment it really shifted for me this
idea that that breasts are not sexual. We have sexualized them.
That's not to say that they don't contribute to pleasure
(37:57):
during a sexual act, because I've experienced at But where
where do boobs kind of fall for you? Lisa? And
you're somebody by the way, if it's okay to say,
and we'll take this out if you want me to.
But I had implants, you had reduction, right, but and
neither I believe we're for sexual function? Where where do
(38:17):
boobs fall for you when it comes to sex or
not sex? Where do what category do we put them in?
Are they the same as an elbow? Are they the
same as a vagina? Where do we put them? For me?
Sort of yes, like obviously they're amazing, they feed human beings. Well,
when you're woman as pressed. But like when I think
of a body in Africa just being I really appreciate
(38:42):
that they're not so caught up on whether they're being
objectified or not, because I think there's the huge fear
of being objectified women thinking that the man is going
to just use them for sex or my really large
thing that comes up. There's a discrepancy. Women are craving
more emotional intimacy many times, and this is not true
(39:02):
for all couples. It could be the opposite. The many
times women are creating more emotional intimacy and they look
at their partner wanting sex like if we don't get
a better sex life, I can't stay with you, or
like I'm really unhappy. And for the men, a lot
of times, sex is how they know that their partner
wants to feel vulnerable with them and desires them in
(39:25):
a way that like they would not with other people.
It is a true act of vulnerability, right. So I
want people to get into the rotic self and not
fear whether they're being objectified, because in my head I
always say, like objectification is kind of like okay during sex,
Like it's okay to be called talk dirty if that's
what you like. And I don't even like the word
dirty because it's like implies or something like gross about it.
(39:48):
But like if someone's saying something in a very erotic
way that in any other light might be considered offensive,
but it's with the partner that you're consensually wanting, maybe
someone you love. Of then, to me, making love is
not about like, oh, we're making eye contact and this
is like the Titanic we ow and like it's not
(40:08):
like that. It could be like any shape anyway. You
don't need to be looking at the each other eye.
To me, it's like we're so in love. I get
to have self centered sex right now. I get to
be mindful and in my body. I don't have to
worry that they're objectifying me already know they're not. They
love me, they want a life with me, and that's
I guess the importance of making sure that you're in
(40:28):
a relationship where you feel safe outside of the bedroom,
because that's safety needs to be established before you make
it to the bedroom. Without that, you might be looking
for clues of of safety and feel very unsafe if
that person calls you a word or however they speak,
you know, whatever that is because that hasn't been you know,
addressed out before you made it to the bedroom. Alright.
(40:50):
One question I want to ask you before we go
is that as society progresses, I feel like we are progressing,
in my opinion, quickly, I'm sure in and many other
people's opinions not so quickly. But I'm learning more about
fluidity in relationships and the idea that monogamy really is
extinct for many people. And what I mean by that
(41:13):
is not necessarily that a husband and a wife aren't together.
But in modern day we have access to things like
porn or other things that other societies didn't, and that
might to some people mean you're not monogamous. If one
partners watching porn, a couple might want to bring another
(41:34):
person into the relationship, whether that be you know, short term,
long term, or perhaps bring you know, or be more
fluid with there have an open relationship. I know Will
Smith I believe has an open relationship. I heard you
didn't know that. I'm not the celebrities sexual. I don't know.
I'd have to google. I'm not. I'm not sure if
(41:55):
that if that's correct or not. But the conversation around
more fluid relationships open relations and chips is certainly mind
blowing to me. Is it's something that you're seeing a
lot in your practice, Yeah, I see a lot of
open relationships. Listen, We're covering so many topics and I
can't do any of them justice in just these these
short times. So anyone feel free to contact me. But
I don't look at porn as being bad unless it is.
(42:18):
It's like anything is bad, bad as fruit bad, well
anything if you're feeling like a compulsion to have it
excessively and excessively excessively. Okay, non we can look into live.
But there's a huge misnomer about most sex therapists in
our country, and there's a huge argument about this in
the field, but Certifying American Association for Sex Educators, counselors
and therapists have made statements that they have no proof
(42:40):
and reason to believe that sex addiction exists or like
this porn addiction or a lot of people have this
like porn, you know, anti porn rhetoric from our totally.
And I think that's like maybe a whole other conversation.
But I guess the question is if your partners is
using porn on to masturbate on their spare time whatever, um,
and they're attracted to somebody else. Whether again, whether that's
(43:04):
porn or just walking down the street, they're attracted to
somebody else. I think we suppressed those feelings because we're
afraid of what that means to our monogamous relationship. One
thing that's really important is fantasy. Just because you have
a fantasy doesn't mean you want it to happen in
real life. I am so sorry to anyone who has
not heard this or really process this, and this might
(43:24):
be hard to hear, but like, we're all attracted to
a lot of people constantly, and we don't need to
suppress that because it's okay. You can be attracted to
people and also only want to be with one person.
If you're feeling like, no, I really want to be
with a lot of people, well maybe you're really feeling
(43:46):
this powerful feeling that you don't want to be monogamous.
And the thing that couples do that is problematic in
my opinion, is they open the relationship without creating a
contract and doing it in a very educated way. And
there's a huge misnomer that like kinky people and people
who have sex with multiple partners are unsafe or dangerous.
They're actually the most safe. They are people that are
(44:09):
trained can keep people are trained into making sure things
are consensual and careful. It's more of these like heteronormative
little kids going around having one night stands that put
themselves almost that more risks sometimes because they aren't sexually
educated and trained to have those conversations. But when it
comes to like do I want an open relationship, sure
(44:30):
they can work, but it requires, in my opinion, months
of contracting and recontracting so that there is safety for
the primary partners. And I will never shame anyone for
wanting to have a third or anything like that. I
have a lot of couples like that, but I encourage
them not to do that without being very clear on
what their boundaries are, because, like all things, boundaries are
(44:52):
really important too, individual and emotional safety. So what you're
saying is a couple who's let's say married, you know,
kind of like the highest form of togetherness might explore
having an open relationship. But I know my own judgments
come up when we talk about this, to say, well,
this is a couple that's ultimately going to fail. But
you're saying that might not necessarily be true. In fact,
(45:16):
their relationship might be more concrete than a couple that's
silencing those feelings because they're being so open and vulnerable
that they want to invite other people in and and
and big end. There's boundaries around how far that can
go that are constantly being discussed. Whenever we repressed. Think
(45:36):
about like a diet. If I don't eat carbs for
like a year, and all of a sudden, I have
like one bite of a car, there's a good chance
I'm gonna binge on those cars. So think about repressing
how you what you want your whole life. Think about
what we've heard in the news about celebrities transitioning. Caitlyn Jenner, Right,
Caitlyn Jenner was repressing that part of herself her entire life,
(46:00):
and she could not bear it anymore. She couldn't live
another day pretending to be someone she wasn't. And it's
the same thing with affairs or people. A lot of
people feel so much shame. They grew up in really
religious places or different countries that really were anti sexuality
at all outside of marriage and outside of reproduction, and
they find themselves going to strip clubs or meeting sex
(46:22):
workers away from their wife who may not have any
education about sex, but they're like, something's wrong with me.
I'm horrible, but I can't hold it in, And it's
it's a compulsion to trying to repress a huge part
of yourself, which is your sexuality. So that's where when
we talk about, like you know, sex service called out
of control sexual behavior, not sex addiction, while some do,
(46:42):
but not me. I call it out of sexual behavior.
It's more rooted in why am I repressing a part
of me? What really is out of control behavior? Is
it having sex with unsafely with a lot of people,
or is it having sex? I think this convert this
conversation goes hand in hand with the idea that there's
no such thing as a sugar addiction. And the party
(47:03):
that advocates that there's no such thing as a sugar
addiction is saying the same thing as you when talking
about there's no such thing as a sex addiction. If
you're not repressing something, if you're not saying sugar is bad,
if you're not saying sex is bad, if you're allowing
yourself to have sugar for breakfast, you know, if you're
allowing sugar to be in your diet. If you're allowing
sex to be part of your life in a really
open way, you're not addicted to it as long as
(47:26):
you're being open about what it is. And the same
thing with sugar. You know, you might find that it's
just part of your life and it's not something that
you're thinking about all the time, or you're not doing
being bad for returning to it again. It just exists.
They both provide pleasure. Like I think that that the
arguments are very parallel, and it's super interesting to continue
to talk about the the intersect between diet culture and
(47:49):
pleasure negative cosex culture because all of it is rooted
in repression and repressing just being a human. Yeah, hones in.
It circles back to how we started, so, which is
how did I work on my healing. While I'm still healing,
I'll never be actualized. They'll still have and I still
do work through anxiety related to my way. Wait, it's
(48:12):
deep rooted. I do have to breathe through experiences the
same thing. I still find myself here and they're not
often because I've really really dried, but sometimes still like
sexuality things. It's been a lot of one what's amazing
about a loving relationship is the best therapy happens in
couples work. I really believe that because you can have
an insecure attachment or different anxiety, you know, anxious attachments,
(48:36):
but with a loving foundation with another person, to be
able to work through that and build a secure base,
to become an earned secure person is amazing. And I
think that's really what I've been able to earn through
my relationship with sexuality, through my relationship with food, and
through my relationship with my partner. It's this earned security
and it's it's really what I hope for all people
(48:58):
to get in our lives is the yes. And I
love that like a little place to start. If talking
about pleasure and sex feels uncomfortable for you, are there
other areas of your life where you're denying yourself pleasure
that you could open that door that might feel more comfortable,
whether it's with food or silliness or dance, you know,
whatever it is. Because I think as soon as we
(49:18):
open the door in one way, we can open the
door in another way, and that could have a trickle
down effect. And I certainly am not an expert, and
I have a lot to learn from you, Lisa, but
I just I know from experience. When I opened the
door to food and trusting myself around food, the door
to trusting myself around all these other things, and my
body's wisdom began to speak much louder. And I think
(49:39):
that's kind of what it's about, about breaking through these
ideas that we should and we shouldn't, the good and
the bad um and allowing ourselves to talk with our friends,
with our partners, with ourselves honestly about our our desires,
because no desire, like you said, unless you know a
legal activity is is bad. And I'll finish with this, Lisa,
(50:02):
you said something, it's amazing to see you having this
conversation with me, because I've been doing this for a
while now. But I knew it was always hard for
Lisa to talk to me about GDA asked random questions
along the way, and on her Bachelor at party, I
put a cucumber in a banana town and we labeled
it something, but really what we were talking about our
relationships and dating, and then the activity was sort of
(50:22):
at the end about like the banana and it was
a lot for at least at the time. And maybe
you remember that maybe you kind of like just frozen
at the end with the banana, and that's what you
take away from it. But look for anyone who's uncomfortable, now,
that's okay, because you'll figure out when you're ready to
have this conversation, it will happen for you. And it
(50:43):
really is not about these extreme acts. They're silly moments.
It's about opening up a dialogue and gaining comfort being vulnerable,
because that's how we connect. Yeah, I mean there's a
lot to unpack I think from that experience, but I
think from me, I subscribe subscribed to this idea that
like sex is reserved for closed doors, so even just
(51:05):
being around girlfriends. And I'm the most open naked person.
You know, all my friends have seen me me naked.
I've never you know, I don't. I don't sexualize my
body when with friends, so I've I've never been afraid
to be naked. You know that you're a big naked
or to Lisa. But I think for me, like having
that experience wasn't something I wanted to maybe do with girlfriends.
I don't know. We'll save that for a personal conversation,
(51:27):
but I think people listening and will keep this in
the episode because it's something to really listen to about
how it makes you feel and explore, explore that or
any judgments about me that might be coming up as
we kind of had this open, honest conversation. All right, Lisa,
you're amazing. I'm gonna put your information below so people
can reach out to you with questions to work with
you to learn more. And thank you so much and
(51:48):
congrats on your engagement and hopefully we'll have you back
on real soon and of course thank you for living
your truthious life. M
M hm, No, It'll be all right, even when times
gethart and feel you're in the due Cusye, just how
beautiful I can be when you soph in your heart,
(00:22):
you can findly star you're to see. Is life? Hello? Truth?
Is life? Fam, Welcome back and happy new year. We're
settling into two. And if you're anything like me, maybe
you thought that this year would be magically different than
(00:42):
one and but turns out it's not. And I think
a lot of people are going through collective pain, grief suffering,
this feeling like COVID is never gonna end. I am
certainly no stranger to seasonal depression and what I kind
of call functional depression, but I think a lot of people,
no matter kind of where you fall with your past history,
(01:03):
could understand that this is situationally a very depressing and
hard time. And being kind of candid right now to
kind of share that I'm in the thick of it
and to you all who show up here every week,
I am and will continue to put out fantastic content
and show up to my job just like all of
(01:24):
you who are struggling but also showing up to your
own jobs. Um, And I share that to kind of
showcase that even though I'm showing up and I'm so
charged positively by these conversations, you know, behind the scenes,
and there's the struggle bus and I'm on it right now,
And that's okay to to admit and and kind of
say that everything you see or here that gets produced
(01:47):
published online, um is certainly truthful. But I think you
deserve to know that underneath all of that is the
same emotions that that you're feeling. And I hope that
this podcast can serve as an element to take you
out of the trance, just like it does that for me.
This year. I focus that I would like to bring
to the podcast if I can, is to explore sexual health,
(02:12):
sexual wellness, sexuality in general. I think that it's a
super taboo topic or we all have some sort of
a relationship to how we perceive the way the topic
should be addressed or the way it should be even
physically done. And it's a topic that I was certainly
uncomfortable with for a long time. But as I grow
(02:32):
more into my body wellness, becoming a mom, all these
things going through the life cycle, it becomes crystal clear
to me that the way we seek pleasure from one
thing defines how we seek pleasure from another and the
way that we accept pleasure in our life from one
thing allows for pleasure in other areas. So allowing ourselves
(02:55):
to get pleasure from a cup of tea, coffee, chocolate,
to me, is the same as allowing ourselves to get
pleasure from sex, sexual activity, or perhaps even if it's
done by yourself masturbation. Again, like, still kind of working
through this myself, my own discomfort around these these topics,
because I too am a product of a society where
it was really hushed, and anything that's hushed really suppresses
(03:19):
us from being who we were meant to be. And
this upcoming episode is with one of my best friends
in real life, Lisa Hawkburger, who's a sex therapist, and
hearing from her, which you will in just a moment,
about how her weight and diet culture really contributed to
her own sexual desire and preferences that she suppressed really
(03:40):
illustrates to me everything that I kind of just discussed,
and how wellness is really full circle and we're not
really talking about wellness unless we talk about all the
things that humans do, drink, eat, breathe think. So that
is a topic that I personally would like to continue
to explore to have X spurts on to break down
(04:01):
this topic. I have mentioned in this episode again coming
up that if it's uncomfortable for you, I invite you
to stay. I invite you to bring curiosity to it.
So many of us have ideas about sex that stem
from the way we were raised or religion that, um,
it could make it really uncomfortable. And in this episode
with Lisa, we even talked about something that I did
(04:23):
semi recently that really portrays my discomfort with this topic publicly,
and I'm leaving it in the episode because I want
to invite you to see that I'm along for this
ride with you. So I would love to hear some
feedback about this episode or if you'd like to explore
this as we make our way through two guests and content,
(04:44):
because I think we can make a real impact and
change and use sex as a way to live our
most authentic lives. All right, let's jump into this episode
with my dear friend Lisa hawk Burger. Welcome back to
the Truth is Life, Everybody. Today's a really special episode
for me because it's with a personal friend of mine.
(05:05):
More than a personal friend, We've done huge life things together.
We went to college together and then we studied abroad together,
doing this program called Semester at Sea where we went
around the world on like a cruise ship and we
were roommates in a very intimate setting. We've experienced, you know,
different cultures together, gotten into precarious dangerous situations when traveling
(05:29):
through those countries. We almost capsized ones remember that I
fell out of bed. You were strapped to yours. So anyway,
let me introduce Lisa hawk Burger. We're both Lisa's. We
both it confused, a lot of people were both light
We're both Lisa Beth. There's a lot of similarities but
a lot of differences between us two. But nonetheless Lisa
(05:53):
is the best. Who's the coolest woman? You're a woman
now recently engaged and a sex therapist. And Lisa, if
you would have asked me to predict your career in
two thousand nine when we went all across the world,
I don't know if I could have ever landed on
you being a sex therapistiness. It's so funny. It's kind
(06:14):
of like the reason why I went into this is
because I was so romantically curious about what was going
on and sexually curious, but harboring that within me because
I wanted to be whatever was the normal twentiesothing at
the time, and then I let it all out after
(06:35):
I grew up a little. I mean, it's fascinating because,
like I said, like I'm a pretty intuitive person. I
know who people are without them having to speak. But
I didn't pick up on that energy and frequency of yours.
It's so interesting that you're suppressing it. Why do you
think you felt like you had to suppress it for
so long? Really interesting talking to you about this, Lisa,
(06:55):
because I've known you for so long. But when I
was young, growing up in Long Island, and I was
not a stick skinny girl, I really didn't want to
admit to myself that I wanted. Well, I admitted it
to myself, but I didn't wanted to admit to others
how badly I wanted romance boyfriend and it became my mission.
I loved watching rum comes. I fantasized about some ideal
(07:19):
that is not true at all, but I became as
a defense mechanism, the matchmaker, trying to set everyone up,
and which I still love to do. But I didn't
want to feel bad that no one would want to
be with me because I didn't feel like I was
this prototypical Long Island girl. Right. So Lisa and I
actually knew each other in high school, different high schools,
(07:41):
But that is actually how I would accurately describe you.
You were really good at having male friends as friends,
and you were really good at setting them up with
your friends. And it was lost on me that that
came from a place of they would never want to
be with me, so I'll set them up with friends
as a way to avoid potential rejection. Yeah, and a
(08:05):
lot of them I didn't even think of like that
because I wouldn't even let myself go there. I wouldn't
even let myself be like, oh, this person is attractive,
because I didn't even want to hit on that rejection piece.
That totally transformed with time and life and experience. But
high school, I look back on it, it was so
much fun. I know. I wasn't authentically myself, so well
(08:28):
is anybody you know, and especially like you said, growing
up in a Long Island where we're from, and everybody
kind of looks stick skinny and wears the same clothes
and all of that you know, you were still friends
with everybody that looked like that, and you you always
were the nicest person. But I know that your weight
was really challenging for you. It's something that you were
very kind of open about. At the same time, it
(08:51):
seems like you have overcome that a lot. And before
we even get into your specialty, I think a lot
of people can relate to diet after die. I mean
you were on crazy diets, like you were eating gel
packets of protein from one nutritionists. I remember that. I
mean you were always on some sort of a diet.
(09:12):
How have you found comfort in your physical body? Thank you? Really,
I've learned from you and a lot of people about
how diets truly do not work. But aside from what
I externally looked like, from all my research, from our
my studies, I started studying really intensely dating relationships, what
(09:33):
people want attraction, and I realized there were people of
all body types, you know, married around the world, in
New York, in Long Island even right, And so I
was like, what is it? And I lost all this
weight and I didn't find a boyfriend. I really thought
when I lost weight, I would find a boyfriend. And
that was like the cure to my problems. As soon
as I found that, and I started to realize that
(09:55):
people were attracted to me when I was heavier. That's
actually when I've always had my Boyfrien, when I was
heavier than the skinnier guys. And I realized people who
want to date me will date me, people who don't
want to date me won't date me. But I can't
try to be someone I'm not. And I also know
that there is so much anxiety relationship with sexuality. I
(10:17):
was learning how to get in touch with what is sexuality,
how do we relax and enjoy pleasure? And I was
learning that you cannot do that when you're anxious and
self conscious. You lose out on play, on fun. And
we'll get into that later, but that became so important
to me. I wanted to learn how to enjoy one
of the pleasures of life, which is my own sexuality.
(10:40):
I think this episode is really timely during a very
stressful time of COVID and everything, and just at the
time of this recording, at least, the world feels super
heavy and for me, despite having a baby and going
through a huge joy in my life, there's really not
a lot of pleasure in my life, and I will
admit to my audience and to you that I'm also
(11:02):
not inviting it in in a very sexual way right
now because of my anxiety, because of my exhaustion. And
I could also admit that I know I need to
because healthy sexuality, whether with a partner or yourself or whatever,
it is a conversation that I think I felt too
taboo to talk about on platforms for a long time,
(11:24):
is a critical piece to wellness, of feeling, happiness, of
getting the chemicals that we're supposed to be making um.
And I think there's a lot of shame around this conversation,
whether it's about masturbation or intercourse or intercourse that sends
a little uh sexiety, you know, sex or um, multiple partners,
(11:46):
you know, whatever, whatever it is. And I'm really enjoying
how the conversation is shifting in the in my world
to include that, because it's really challenging everything I ever
thought of out when it came to what it means
to be sexually healthy. And there's so many ways that
that could look when we're not confined to that narrow
(12:09):
way that we were taught. So actually, I am not
that familiar with what sex therapy actually is. Is it
the same thing as couples therapy. I don't mean to
hit on people who call themselves a couples therapists that
don't have sexuality training, But in my opinion, every therapist
should have a sexuality training, right because I have clients
(12:31):
coming to me all the time that have been in
therapy for ten years, in marriages, having affairs, that have
never talked about sex with their therapists. Sex is a
for lack of we'll call it. How about that people
come in they think they have a problem with sex.
A lack of sex begins with an emotional mismatch or
not a connection. There's something lacking within the connection. People
(12:53):
often say, what am I missing? So what is a
sex therapist? A sex therapist is truly a regular therapist.
I've kind of training, but I have all this background
in human sexuality. I've studied sexuality, alternative sexualities. I understand
what our heaths of sexuality are, not just our sexual orientation,
(13:13):
not just sexual health and reproduction, the difference between sexual intimacy,
what pleasure is what in hunger. I'll get into that
when we talk about you know a little later, but
what it is to want touch or not want touch,
and our sexuality is largely based on the way we
developed as children, so sometimes it means relearning things that
(13:34):
we learned as a child, like how to be a
lady or how to be a dude. Yeah, that's really fascinating.
So I actually asked you, is it the same as
couples therapy? And you said yes, But it sounds like
the answer is really no, because when I think of
couples therapy, I think of whether it's pre marital or marital.
It's about sitting in the room and talking about the
issues that you're going through or maybe not necessarily the issues,
(13:58):
but the very fast things discussing the sexual nature of
your relationship together in a safe container. To be clear,
a sex therapist is a therapist, but not all therapists
who do couples are sex therapists. Is that correct? That's
exactly true. And one major thing about sex therapists that
(14:20):
they've been through sexual attitude reassessment training, meaning we have
been exposed to whatever you can think of the most
alternative thing. People could say things to me, they're like, oh,
we think you're gonna laugh, even just like friends, right,
I don't laugh. I don't have a reaction. I know
that there are various ways to express ourselves actually, and
(14:40):
I think they're wonderful. As long as it's consensual, it's legal,
it's not anything related to minors. It's you know, one
of consensual sex. I don't care what you're doing, as
long as you can be open and get in touch
with what I like to call your erotic self, or
you know that person you might have been when you
(15:01):
were a little little kid that your mom told you
how to behave and you stopped being that little kid
because you had to keep up with the society. Right,
you learn the boundaries and the confines to live in.
You want to take them back to that place before
they learned the box to live in, so that they
can freely express what they want to say, and you
create that safe container. Now it seems kind of obvious
(15:24):
that a couple or a I think there's a threatle
when there's three people can would go maybe see a
sex therapist, But can an individual go see a sex
therapist on their own. I see a lot of individuals
and a lot of couples A lot of times it's
really important to figure out what is going on with
yourself first before you introduce it to a partner. And
(15:46):
some of my clients are single people that are dating
but afraid of their sexuality or experience pain with sexuality
and I think there's something wrong with them, or they
don't feel desire and they're like, I'm just not sexual
in my a sexual or they're curious about who they're
attracted to. So there's a lot of exploring to be done.
And also it is really hard up there for men
(16:07):
and women dating. So a lot of people dating thinking like, oh,
it's me, there's something I'm doing, um, And it's kind
of reframing what is true because dating is a very
very new thing. Marriage was not about love until the
nine hundreds. It was really I mean sort of. It
was introduced in the Lady eighteen hundreds that marriage wasn't
(16:30):
about love. I mean that marriage that there could be love,
And I think that the late like is when they
introduced the term night and shining armor, but knights were
a thing of medieval times, so night in shining arm
or fairy tale. It's an interesting I could go in
all different angles. And that's why sex therapists are so
interesting because we understand sexuality as being so many things
(16:52):
more than a penis coming together with either another penis
or of volva or whatever it is. I'm going to
have that. Yeah, it's so much to to on earth.
I know that my own. You know, for anybody listening
who may feel uncomfortable during this episode, you're probably not alone.
At my bachelotte party, Lisa came and I'm a very
(17:14):
atypical bachelorette. I do not like the strip I was
very against having a stripper or you know, all the
things that would happen at a bachelorette. But because of
Lisa's training, she decided to give us a banana demonstration.
You know, you can kind of lock that through yourself. Um,
but it made me really uncomfortable during that, and I
(17:37):
kind of voice that here so that our listeners maybe
if there's any time that you want to shy away
from this conversation, to know that you're not alone, and
we can kind of sit with the discomfort and hopefully
bring curiosity to that. Why did that make me feel uncomfortable?
Is it a bad thing that that made me feel uncomfortable? Um?
Is there something to learn from that? And I hope
(17:58):
that throughout this conversation and you are able to kind
of bring that there as well. Let's talk about the
importance of play in a relationship, because I'm a year
and a half married in a pandemic and there's not
(18:21):
much play outside of the bedroom. For sure. It's a
very high stressed time of our life. Uh, and I
would like to learn the importance of play. So play
is the most critical factor in a relationship in our lives.
It teaches us how to enjoy things. But again, we
grew up in a society that is pleasure negative. So
(18:45):
I always start with as a child, you see a
little kid, let's say he or she's eating an ice
cream cone. They're really enjoying that ice cream cone, and
you know what, it's all over their face, having the
best time. And then mom start or dad starts telling
you eat that ice cream slower, or that ice creams fattening,
or you should only have a little bit or less
(19:05):
than that, and all of a sudden you're robbed of
like the joy, the play because you're so busy trying
to be whatever is appropriate, be an adult, be an
uptight person. Almost. That's the way I view it. Pleasure
and player interconnected. In order to enjoy our partner, we
have to play with them to get pleasure. So that's
(19:28):
why I talk about play being so related to sexuality,
because we need to get in touch with if we
have a loving partner. Not always do we have that,
but if we're consentually having sex with some one or
in a loving relationship, there is nothing more intimate than
being your inner child in front of your partner. So
if we are a little girl exploring our body and curious,
(19:52):
which often happens, mom's dads walk in on their child
just touching, little boy touching, just being like what is this?
It's not sexual, it's really just like what is this?
This feels good? Then mom says put that away, never
show your penis, never touch your volva, keep that away.
In that moment, there is a sexual negativity getting taught
(20:15):
to that little child that this is this is dangerous
or this is bad and I should not be doing this.
So it depends on how we process. If we're someone
who has obsessive thoughts, we can really take on that
role that like there is something wrong with sex, and
our bodies can react to that and just to kind
of harp on that for a second, because I think
(20:35):
if you're a parent or or an adult that knows
a child, obviously you don't want them walking around rubbing
their private parts or taking it out. You know, given
the norms within our society and what's appropriate and safe,
is there something that you could say or do to
expand that boundary to allow them to be curious and
(20:57):
do that in their own way with out I guess
putting the sexual negative charge to it or Yeah. So
the first thing I'll say is kids don't need an explanation.
They just need one sentence and they'll usually go back
to doing whatever they're doing. And you know, if you
they say, asked, what is sex and you say it's
when a penis goes into a vagina or whatever you
(21:18):
describe a sex, that's not my definition of sex, but
what many people to find a sex. If you just
stop there, the kid is gonna walk away. They're not
even going to really be like, so when do you
do that? How do you do that? Most of the time,
like nine out of ten times, they're just gonna walk
away and be like okay. But then when it comes
to their then playing with their genitals, Wow, what a
(21:40):
beautiful penis? But that's something for you and you can
enjoy that in your private time, and you really want
to encourage that their body is beautiful. You want to
use the words, but encourage them to say, you know
what that is for you, keep that you know that's
your special part, that's for you, and you can explore
are that on your own. I think that sounds really
(22:02):
out there for a lot of parents, though, and I
want to be so transparent that I know that that
may not be easy to do. Yeah, and to really
trust that they are digesting what you're saying and not
impose your own fears out there. That makes that makes
a lot of sense. Earlier on, you mentioned anxiety and
the ability to have sex. Now, I'm somebody who's very
(22:24):
in touch with my emotions and my nervous system, and
as much work as I do to nourish my nervous system,
as I say, and keep myself at baseline or at
least a balance, when I'm anxious, when I'm depressed, when
i'm any really emotion, the last thing I want to
(22:45):
do is have sex. And it's hard to really say, Okay,
I don't want to have sex because I'm anxious, but
my body feels very closed off. What's happening when we're
anxious and what's the relationship to desire at that point.
So we have our autonomic nervous system that I'm sure
(23:07):
Lisa has heard of, but I will just explain briefly.
There's two branches sympathetic, powers sympathetic. When you are anxious, nervous, tired, hungary, exhausted,
your sympathetic nervous system, which is fight or flight, is
on overdrive. It's your survival mechanism, part of your nervous system.
So your powers sympathetic, which regulates you. It's homeostasis. It
(23:27):
makes you feel calm. Your sympathetic nervous system it goes
into survival mode. So when you're anxious, your neurons are
firing to your for your heart rate and your blood
pressure to go up, up, up up up, and in
the process it stops firing neurons to areas that you
don't need. So maybe you've heard stress can help make
people gain weight because you're you don't need to digest
(23:47):
quickly to survive. Same thing for emotional regulation. You don't
need to emotionally regulate to survive. Go to bed angry,
don't ever listen to that BS tail that you should
make up before bed, oh, let yourself regularly it overnight.
But when it comes to the genitals, we pick up
on survival mechanisms. It's directly attached to the nervous system.
(24:08):
So let's say as the child, you grow up in
a very religious community that's telling you that sex is
only to be had in a marriage, or mom told
you do not masturbate. Ever, that is bad. All of
a sudden, you have attached this danger zone to your genitals.
And your genitals are more connected to your nervous system
(24:31):
than they are your brain. So your nervous system might say, constrict, constrict, constrict,
constrict is what I think of pleasure. Negative, no play,
bansion is pleasure. So when your body is open and
you're breathing and you're relaxing, and you're letting your body regulate.
But sometimes it's not that easy. So it goes into
like what is normal for desire and all those topics
(24:55):
that are fun, and perhaps you're feeling anxious from your
current environ mint. But I imagine for both male and
female who may have sexual trauma in their past, the
act of sex might induce anxiety. The act of touch
or potential touch or potential pleasure could actually cause UM.
(25:16):
I don't know if the right word would be like
sexual dysfunction in the male. I would call it a
rectile dysfunction, but maybe not the right term. But I
know that what it feels like as a woman to
shut down, and I know what it looks like for
a man to shut down. But I think there there's
so much to say about that, because is there a
spectrum of sexual trauma that you know, we think of
(25:37):
sexual trauma as being maybe more obvious too obviously horrendous acts,
but a lot of us harness less obvious sexual trauma
that might come up during sex. So, first of all,
erectile unpredictability is what I like to call things associated Okay,
the mind um And we'll get into whether us you know,
(25:58):
we can get into that at another time. It what
I will say is absolutely there's big T trauma and
small T trauma. And that is exactly what I'm talking
about when I say mother sees their child mass already
and goes, oh my god, what are you doing? Stop
that moment in time? Kids are like adults all the time,
are like my parents were fine, Like sex is fine,
and then we get to this moment they've never thought
(26:21):
of that, that moment in time that they have a
memory of that their mother, our father was That's what
we were parents were told to do. It's not their fault,
right like the way we were fond. I just want
any parents who's done this before to not be like,
oh my god, I messed up my kid forever. That's
certainly not true. And none of us are obviously, none
of us are perfect. And everything we do, no matter
who you are, and you know, impacts people around you.
(26:43):
But it's not necessarily and intentionally bad things, So don't
overthink it, parents, But but yes, it's the smallest things
in life that can create memories in our nervous system
to go WHOA, my body needs to go into survival
mode right now. So it's really not even always in
your mind. It's your body's reaction. And the same thing
goes for yeah, not just sexual trauma, but religious for
(27:08):
all different types of things where experiencing. I think this
conversation is so important because without the awareness of what
anxiety is, what it feels like, how it affects your body,
it could continue to your sexual shame. You know, if
you're a male, Mike, I can't. I don't know what's
the right term here for how you can't perform right. Um,
(27:29):
you might continue to perpetuate the anxiety or the same
for a female. But I'm all about that mind body connection.
If you can notice, Hey, I'm anxious right now, and
that's why I don't want to invite pleasure into my life.
I think in the right setting, given the circumstances, you
could also take a moment to calm your nervous system
down and say, Okay, I am anxious, but I also
(27:50):
need some pleasure in my life. Can I recognize that
I'm bringing my anxiety into the bedroom and can I
sidestep it for just a moment to allow something safe
in Yeah. And the first step is stop thinking that
sex is about performance. It's not. It's really about enjoying
and and and Lisa, you didn't do anything wrong in
(28:12):
saying that, right, and that is something that most people
come into my office saying. But it's really about can
I relax and enjoy touch? And it's very tricky for
people with Volvo's because sex is less whatever it looks like.
And I don't even mean internal because internal sex is
usually not what gives women the most pleasure. That's important
(28:34):
for every want to hear. Oh yeah, we can get
into that for a long time. But it is really
the way our bodies work, right It's it's really external
clicked poral pressures. And we can talk about the internal
clitter as people don't even know that they're clitter is
way bigger than just the little part that we see
um and it wraps around the vagina. But I was
(28:55):
really wanting to get into the point that it's really
about getting into our body being mindful. It's almost this
meditative act. What do I feel? Because pleasure is everywhere,
It's in front of us. Right now, I am experiencing
so much pleasure having a conversation with my oldie but
best deleas lely right now, Like this is so fun
for me and we again, our whole society is diet culture.
(29:19):
But I say this to my clients, and I don't
mean food. It's like, do your homework and then you
can have fun. All of a sudden, work becomes this
bad thing. You can enjoy work, what why why not?
Or eat your vegetables and then you can have dessert,
and vegetables become bad dessert becomes the good thing, but
vegetables are delicious. So there's this culture of pleasure negative
(29:39):
through the negative thing and then you can have pleasure.
But for a women, it's really about can I just relax?
And I call it self centered sex for both men
and women. Can I just relax? And can I breathe
and and make noise? And it's really interesting. Sometimes I
have my clients watch fifty Shades of Gray just so
that they can see, you know, the main actor been there.
(30:00):
And a lot of times they're like, oh, it doesn't
feel that good. She was exaggerating. She was making sex
sound like it was the most amazing thing in the world.
And I'm like, yes, but that breath, that noise, that
that is a release that is pleasurable. So there is
a lot to be said about making noise and breathing
in this experience and not worrying is my partner laughing
(30:22):
at me because I'm making a really aware noise. No,
I'm not even focused on my partner right now. I'm
just enjoying what I'm experiencing. Of course, there's ways to
include your partner and and make it a really communicative act,
but communication is not just through the words. It's much
louder our communication through our bodies. Wow, sex is so
(30:42):
much more layered than what we've been taught and the
way it's been simplified and the way it's been for
lack of a better word, over sexualized. Like, there's so
many layers beneath that that is key to our health
and well being and our emotional regulation, whether with a
partner or without. And even hearing you say the words
(31:06):
meditative for yourself and pairing that with the experience, I
think is really important because I loved what you said
when you said, stop thinking sex is about performance, stop
even thinking it's about the other person. Can sex be
a radical act of self care? Whether again, whether it's
masturbation or whether it's with a partner. Can you allow
(31:28):
it to be about you? I think is these are
just the conversations that need to be have because I
truly believe that if we have these conversations, people are
more emotionally regulated as a result, and more emotionally regulated
people means a healthier society when it comes to all
the ways that we function. Like you said that release
(31:49):
of the breath, Like, imagine if people could really get
that release and be less angry starting their day. Um
and I also loved how you framed the idea that, like,
we're pleasure negative of a pleasure negative society, and how
we can get pleasure from everything that we're doing, whether
it's sipping our cup of coffee, having a conversation with
our friends. I know, for one, that I'm very conscious
(32:10):
of my subconscious scurry around feeling good because I need
to get something done on my to do list, or
if I'm like watching a movie, I'm on my phone
at the same time, like I'm I'm afraid to just
be a lot of the times. And that's coming from
somebody who does a lot of the work. So imagine
all the people in the world that are just subconscious
(32:30):
living under this and missing out on all the pleasures
that are around them. Yeah, play living pleasure. It's all
about process. But we get so caught up in like
what things are supposed to be. And unfortunately, nobody taught
us about communication, and nobody taught us about sex. We
only got taught that we're gonna get a disease. So
most women I think that sex is penis and a vagina,
(32:53):
and they they're embarrassed to receive chrono linguists or or
a pleasure because they think, oh, I'm melly on this,
and that that is like the ultimate way, if only, if,
and only when we can like go of a lot
of the anxiety associated that with that that a lot
of women have. That is like the best way for
women to experience pleasure, like nine out of ten times
(33:15):
or nine and I would say nineties seven out of
a hundred times those people. It's very hard for women
to have aginal orgasms like internal orgasms. They can have
things in their in their volva, and you know, that's
a whole another topic. But really I want women out
there to know that if you look at sex as
it being about penis and vagina, it is going to
(33:36):
be really hard for you to get the most out
of your experience, specifically at different points in your life,
like being a new mom. Very hard at first your
vulva and vagina has been medicalized, medicalized for like nine
months ten months. Yeah, And speaking of that topic, which
is where I'm kind of at right now, you would
(33:58):
mentioned that you work with a lot of women who
are experiencing sexual issues after childbirth. I could definitely speak
to sex being and kind of still is four months
right now scary for me. It's it's having a vain
after having a vaginal birth. There's some I wouldn't say
trauma because that doesn't feel like the right word word.
(34:21):
But this isn't just a pleasure center. It performed a
huge task and it changed obviously, you know, and and
maybe there's some feelings of nervousness about that it changed,
that it might not be the same. And I could
hear myself now speaking to you and this kind of
out loud therapy, going back to like sex is not
(34:42):
about performance, Like it's not about performance, and I think
there's a lot to digest out of that. So let's
talk about a lot of postpartum women that you do
work with. What sort of feelings are they experiencing, because
(35:05):
you seem to really digest without having kids of your
own yet that it's a really hard time when it
comes to just about everything, but sex specifically, it's so
hard and everything is sex, our body images sex. When
we are have a newborn, part of our sensuality is
our skin hunger. We crave touch a lot of us,
but when a newborn is hanging on to your boob
or even if you're an operate. Its breastfiting attached to
(35:28):
mom all day right. Sometimes we are touched out, right,
even if we were hardcore cuddlers before baby comes and
we are touched out, So don't come near me. The
biggest problem I hear in sex is making sex a problem.
Sex is to me, evan coming home and giving you
a little massage. That is sex to me. But there's
(35:49):
there's such a narrow definition, and it's unfortunate because a
lot of men have ingrained in them, like and it's
not their fault, but it's a product of time and evolution.
I am a man if I'm having a lot of
sex with my wife and for them because sex it's
kind of I don't want to call it easier, and
I don't want to say this is true for all men,
because that's certainly not true. But they have this process.
(36:11):
They get in erect penis, they have sex, they ejaculate,
and they are like, oh, I had an orgasm. Men
can be multi orgasmic without ejaculating. But because they have
such a process, the mechanical act, it's very obvious to them.
But what I was trying to get into before, it's like,
it's not that obvious for women. So a lot of
times there is desired discrepancy. And so these new moms,
(36:32):
they're like trying to figure out who their body is.
They're like, oh body and my attractive Like what is
going on? Do I like this this person even though
it's like a different size and I'm only okay? Maybe
a lot of them say when I get back in
my new genes, So like, I have to be on
this diet culture again, I'm being bad if I eat
enjoy a bagel or whatever. It is, right, And it's
(36:53):
a lot of pressure. Plus you're trying to keep your
head above water. But it's so hard because you're just
taking care of your kids. And and you know what,
I haven't really spoken that much about or at least
I think about a lot. Like you said, touched out,
Like every mom knows what it feels like to be
touched out, And if you're breastfeeding specifically, it's it's a lot.
Right now, I'm in this weird trying to figure things
(37:14):
out where I'm breastfeeding nursing and I'm pumping six to
seven times a day, and the last thing I want
anyone to do is touch my breasts, and that is
a huge change to have your boobs, which were part
of the pleasure experience, become off limits and also served
this secondary function. And I remember distinctly when you and
(37:36):
I traveled to Africa, a lot of the African culture
that we got to experience was topless, Like the women
just walked around topless, and I just thought it was beautiful.
And in that moment it really shifted for me this
idea that that breasts are not sexual. We have sexualized them.
That's not to say that they don't contribute to pleasure
(37:57):
during a sexual act, because I've experienced at But where
where do boobs kind of fall for you? Lisa? And
you're somebody by the way, if it's okay to say,
and we'll take this out if you want me to.
But I had implants, you had reduction, right, but and
neither I believe we're for sexual function? Where where do
(38:17):
boobs fall for you when it comes to sex or
not sex? Where do what category do we put them in?
Are they the same as an elbow? Are they the
same as a vagina? Where do we put them? For me?
Sort of yes, like obviously they're amazing, they feed human beings. Well,
when you're woman as pressed. But like when I think
of a body in Africa just being I really appreciate
(38:42):
that they're not so caught up on whether they're being
objectified or not, because I think there's the huge fear
of being objectified women thinking that the man is going
to just use them for sex or my really large
thing that comes up. There's a discrepancy. Women are craving
more emotional intimacy many times, and this is not true
(39:02):
for all couples. It could be the opposite. The many
times women are creating more emotional intimacy and they look
at their partner wanting sex like if we don't get
a better sex life, I can't stay with you, or
like I'm really unhappy. And for the men, a lot
of times, sex is how they know that their partner
wants to feel vulnerable with them and desires them in
(39:25):
a way that like they would not with other people.
It is a true act of vulnerability, right. So I
want people to get into the rotic self and not
fear whether they're being objectified, because in my head I
always say, like objectification is kind of like okay during sex,
Like it's okay to be called talk dirty if that's
what you like. And I don't even like the word
dirty because it's like implies or something like gross about it.
(39:48):
But like if someone's saying something in a very erotic
way that in any other light might be considered offensive,
but it's with the partner that you're consensually wanting, maybe
someone you love. Of then, to me, making love is
not about like, oh, we're making eye contact and this
is like the Titanic we ow and like it's not
(40:08):
like that. It could be like any shape anyway. You
don't need to be looking at the each other eye.
To me, it's like we're so in love. I get
to have self centered sex right now. I get to
be mindful and in my body. I don't have to
worry that they're objectifying me already know they're not. They
love me, they want a life with me, and that's
I guess the importance of making sure that you're in
(40:28):
a relationship where you feel safe outside of the bedroom,
because that's safety needs to be established before you make
it to the bedroom. Without that, you might be looking
for clues of of safety and feel very unsafe if
that person calls you a word or however they speak,
you know, whatever that is because that hasn't been you know,
addressed out before you made it to the bedroom. Alright.
(40:50):
One question I want to ask you before we go
is that as society progresses, I feel like we are progressing,
in my opinion, quickly, I'm sure in and many other
people's opinions not so quickly. But I'm learning more about
fluidity in relationships and the idea that monogamy really is
extinct for many people. And what I mean by that
(41:13):
is not necessarily that a husband and a wife aren't together.
But in modern day we have access to things like
porn or other things that other societies didn't, and that
might to some people mean you're not monogamous. If one
partners watching porn, a couple might want to bring another
(41:34):
person into the relationship, whether that be you know, short term,
long term, or perhaps bring you know, or be more
fluid with there have an open relationship. I know Will
Smith I believe has an open relationship. I heard you
didn't know that. I'm not the celebrities sexual. I don't know.
I'd have to google. I'm not. I'm not sure if
(41:55):
that if that's correct or not. But the conversation around
more fluid relationships open relations and chips is certainly mind
blowing to me. Is it's something that you're seeing a
lot in your practice, Yeah, I see a lot of
open relationships. Listen, We're covering so many topics and I
can't do any of them justice in just these these
short times. So anyone feel free to contact me. But
I don't look at porn as being bad unless it is.
(42:18):
It's like anything is bad, bad as fruit bad, well
anything if you're feeling like a compulsion to have it
excessively and excessively excessively. Okay, non we can look into live.
But there's a huge misnomer about most sex therapists in
our country, and there's a huge argument about this in
the field, but Certifying American Association for Sex Educators, counselors
and therapists have made statements that they have no proof
(42:40):
and reason to believe that sex addiction exists or like
this porn addiction or a lot of people have this
like porn, you know, anti porn rhetoric from our totally.
And I think that's like maybe a whole other conversation.
But I guess the question is if your partners is
using porn on to masturbate on their spare time whatever, um,
and they're attracted to somebody else. Whether again, whether that's
(43:04):
porn or just walking down the street, they're attracted to
somebody else. I think we suppressed those feelings because we're
afraid of what that means to our monogamous relationship. One
thing that's really important is fantasy. Just because you have
a fantasy doesn't mean you want it to happen in
real life. I am so sorry to anyone who has
not heard this or really process this, and this might
(43:24):
be hard to hear, but like, we're all attracted to
a lot of people constantly, and we don't need to
suppress that because it's okay. You can be attracted to
people and also only want to be with one person.
If you're feeling like, no, I really want to be
with a lot of people, well maybe you're really feeling
(43:46):
this powerful feeling that you don't want to be monogamous.
And the thing that couples do that is problematic in
my opinion, is they open the relationship without creating a
contract and doing it in a very educated way. And
there's a huge misnomer that like kinky people and people
who have sex with multiple partners are unsafe or dangerous.
They're actually the most safe. They are people that are
(44:09):
trained can keep people are trained into making sure things
are consensual and careful. It's more of these like heteronormative
little kids going around having one night stands that put
themselves almost that more risks sometimes because they aren't sexually
educated and trained to have those conversations. But when it
comes to like do I want an open relationship, sure
(44:30):
they can work, but it requires, in my opinion, months
of contracting and recontracting so that there is safety for
the primary partners. And I will never shame anyone for
wanting to have a third or anything like that. I
have a lot of couples like that, but I encourage
them not to do that without being very clear on
what their boundaries are, because, like all things, boundaries are
(44:52):
really important too, individual and emotional safety. So what you're
saying is a couple who's let's say married, you know,
kind of like the highest form of togetherness might explore
having an open relationship. But I know my own judgments
come up when we talk about this, to say, well,
this is a couple that's ultimately going to fail. But
you're saying that might not necessarily be true. In fact,
(45:16):
their relationship might be more concrete than a couple that's
silencing those feelings because they're being so open and vulnerable
that they want to invite other people in and and
and big end. There's boundaries around how far that can
go that are constantly being discussed. Whenever we repressed. Think
(45:36):
about like a diet. If I don't eat carbs for
like a year, and all of a sudden, I have
like one bite of a car, there's a good chance
I'm gonna binge on those cars. So think about repressing
how you what you want your whole life. Think about
what we've heard in the news about celebrities transitioning. Caitlyn Jenner, Right,
Caitlyn Jenner was repressing that part of herself her entire life,
(46:00):
and she could not bear it anymore. She couldn't live
another day pretending to be someone she wasn't. And it's
the same thing with affairs or people. A lot of
people feel so much shame. They grew up in really
religious places or different countries that really were anti sexuality
at all outside of marriage and outside of reproduction, and
they find themselves going to strip clubs or meeting sex
(46:22):
workers away from their wife who may not have any
education about sex, but they're like, something's wrong with me.
I'm horrible, but I can't hold it in, And it's
it's a compulsion to trying to repress a huge part
of yourself, which is your sexuality. So that's where when
we talk about, like you know, sex service called out
of control sexual behavior, not sex addiction, while some do,
(46:42):
but not me. I call it out of sexual behavior.
It's more rooted in why am I repressing a part
of me? What really is out of control behavior? Is
it having sex with unsafely with a lot of people,
or is it having sex? I think this convert this
conversation goes hand in hand with the idea that there's
no such thing as a sugar addiction. And the party
(47:03):
that advocates that there's no such thing as a sugar
addiction is saying the same thing as you when talking
about there's no such thing as a sex addiction. If
you're not repressing something, if you're not saying sugar is bad,
if you're not saying sex is bad, if you're allowing
yourself to have sugar for breakfast, you know, if you're
allowing sugar to be in your diet. If you're allowing
sex to be part of your life in a really
open way, you're not addicted to it as long as
(47:26):
you're being open about what it is. And the same
thing with sugar. You know, you might find that it's
just part of your life and it's not something that
you're thinking about all the time, or you're not doing
being bad for returning to it again. It just exists.
They both provide pleasure. Like I think that that the
arguments are very parallel, and it's super interesting to continue
to talk about the the intersect between diet culture and
(47:49):
pleasure negative cosex culture because all of it is rooted
in repression and repressing just being a human. Yeah, hones in.
It circles back to how we started, so, which is
how did I work on my healing. While I'm still healing,
I'll never be actualized. They'll still have and I still
do work through anxiety related to my way. Wait, it's
(48:12):
deep rooted. I do have to breathe through experiences the
same thing. I still find myself here and they're not
often because I've really really dried, but sometimes still like
sexuality things. It's been a lot of one what's amazing
about a loving relationship is the best therapy happens in
couples work. I really believe that because you can have
an insecure attachment or different anxiety, you know, anxious attachments,
(48:36):
but with a loving foundation with another person, to be
able to work through that and build a secure base,
to become an earned secure person is amazing. And I
think that's really what I've been able to earn through
my relationship with sexuality, through my relationship with food, and
through my relationship with my partner. It's this earned security
and it's it's really what I hope for all people
(48:58):
to get in our lives is the yes. And I
love that like a little place to start. If talking
about pleasure and sex feels uncomfortable for you, are there
other areas of your life where you're denying yourself pleasure
that you could open that door that might feel more comfortable,
whether it's with food or silliness or dance, you know,
whatever it is. Because I think as soon as we
(49:18):
open the door in one way, we can open the
door in another way, and that could have a trickle
down effect. And I certainly am not an expert, and
I have a lot to learn from you, Lisa, but
I just I know from experience. When I opened the
door to food and trusting myself around food, the door
to trusting myself around all these other things, and my
body's wisdom began to speak much louder. And I think
(49:39):
that's kind of what it's about, about breaking through these
ideas that we should and we shouldn't, the good and
the bad um and allowing ourselves to talk with our friends,
with our partners, with ourselves honestly about our our desires,
because no desire, like you said, unless you know a
legal activity is is bad. And I'll finish with this, Lisa,
(50:02):
you said something, it's amazing to see you having this
conversation with me, because I've been doing this for a
while now. But I knew it was always hard for
Lisa to talk to me about GDA asked random questions
along the way, and on her Bachelor at party, I
put a cucumber in a banana town and we labeled
it something, but really what we were talking about our
relationships and dating, and then the activity was sort of
(50:22):
at the end about like the banana and it was
a lot for at least at the time. And maybe
you remember that maybe you kind of like just frozen
at the end with the banana, and that's what you
take away from it. But look for anyone who's uncomfortable, now,
that's okay, because you'll figure out when you're ready to
have this conversation, it will happen for you. And it
(50:43):
really is not about these extreme acts. They're silly moments.
It's about opening up a dialogue and gaining comfort being vulnerable,
because that's how we connect. Yeah, I mean there's a
lot to unpack I think from that experience, but I
think from me, I subscribe subscribed to this idea that
like sex is reserved for closed doors, so even just
(51:05):
being around girlfriends. And I'm the most open naked person.
You know, all my friends have seen me me naked.
I've never you know, I don't. I don't sexualize my
body when with friends, so I've I've never been afraid
to be naked. You know that you're a big naked
or to Lisa. But I think for me, like having
that experience wasn't something I wanted to maybe do with girlfriends.
I don't know. We'll save that for a personal conversation,
(51:27):
but I think people listening and will keep this in
the episode because it's something to really listen to about
how it makes you feel and explore, explore that or
any judgments about me that might be coming up as
we kind of had this open, honest conversation. All right, Lisa,
you're amazing. I'm gonna put your information below so people
can reach out to you with questions to work with
you to learn more. And thank you so much and
(51:48):
congrats on your engagement and hopefully we'll have you back
on real soon and of course thank you for living
your truthious life. M
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