March 10, 2022 • 22 mins
The conclusion of our series on the civil war in Myanmar.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Robert Evans, and this is part four of me
and mar printing the revolution.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And then once we got there, we couldn't rest, you know,
rain sun whatever. Women as well, we were all like
try it when they came when we were leaving, they
were all like very fair skinned, beautiful. And then we
went in and then everyone got tanned. In the jungle.
We're training all the time, you know, people in training camp.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
We were driven apart.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
And the reason that we were all doing this is
because of minimal nice Coup as students and how much
he has terrorized the public and the people. And that's
why we were We have this morale and the ability
to get through the training and be able to wield weapons.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Zora and his friends went into the jungles students, programmers
and kids. Now they're fighters. They would tech savvy young
peop what he says. They grew up online and that
generational divide which the Internet brought here came much later
in Memah. It wasn't until twenty eleven that people really
gained actisty internet and with it the new ideas and
(01:13):
identities that they brought. Soul's generation are among the first
to embrace global connectivity and now after having it taken away,
they're refusing to give it up.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
The start of the coup in February, the military, well,
gen Z was organizing online social media and all that,
and they were kind of I think this is from
my experience, but from kind of organizing around like gen
Z is going to be different than the Eightya generation
(01:44):
because we have the Internet, and also we know more
about the world and can come communicate to the rest
of the world. I think one thing that was big
was that in two thousand and eight, it just took
one video leaking out of the country for there to
be big international repercussions.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
It's worth noting that when people in Burma talk about
the Internet, they mean Facebook. Phones come with the Facebook
app installed and it's sometimes exempt from data charges. For
many people in Burma, using the internet means using Facebook.
Zora and his friends are different from their parents in
many ways, not at least in their perceptions of authority.
(02:23):
This has led to a situation where the PDF people's
defense force units are much less hierarchical than units of
the Tamador.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So when we make decisions in our group, there's no
master and student, there's no teacher and student. But you
know the way that it works, there are people who
are good, they're older people who are more trained, and
then there are new recruits, new people who just came in.
So of course the people who are there for longer
(02:51):
and know more about the situation have more voice. And
when we discuss so especially people who were there when
we founded the groups. There are only really eight people
from when we group, so those eight people kind of
discussed on the bigger strategy. You know, we don't really
vote there. He says he wants to do it. He
(03:15):
thinks it's good. We are there's the seven of us
we think is good, or we support him, or someone
says we don't really like that idea, then we don't
do it.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
They try to achieve more gender quality as well. Those
are explained that in his unit, the women are not
always the frontline fighters.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
That's the place there's no discrimination. You know, women can
women and men were training whoever could come. But like
on the battlefield, people, we don't use women that much
on the battlefield. That's one thing that we do know
is that it's not it's not really discrimination. But if
(03:54):
women are with us together, we have a confusion about
whether we need to protect them or we're just fighting
with them, or they're fighting in front of us, and
that there's one thing that is very different is that
in terms of mentality, we can't. We never take the
(04:20):
women out really far into very dangerous fights. So often
they're in the back as backup or to supplies or
things like that. But as you know, the military government,
the military terrorists are very very they're very unethical. They
don't follow the rules, so you know they're going to
(04:41):
shoot whoever they see. So even if they're hanging back
and they're sending medical supplies, they can still get hit.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
For Zora in particular, there's a lot at stake. After
almost an hour and a half of talking, I asked
about his parents. I'd heard of retribution attacks against the
families of fighters and wondered if he was worried about that.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Mom and dad are both they support me fighting against
the military. They're very happy. Dad really wants to do CDM,
but he can't run away because the military has taken
his mother and his sisters. He still has five sisters.
(05:21):
They're all still in that military command their work, they're
in the military school schools, so it's very hard for
them to run away, right, So he really wants to
leave the military, but he can't. So while so that
the fact that I am there trying to fight against
(05:42):
the military is very happy, but he tells me to
be careful about my own life. They're supportive and they
really want to come fight themselves, but they can't because
of my sisters and my mother, so and seeing that
I can do it, it's really wonderful for them. So
his father, his other brother and other people three of
(06:06):
them below him. They have all usually just lived together
with his grandfather and stuff in the military tompounds or
near the military. So he really wants to call all
the people that are still there, but they can't leave.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
This is what civil ward does.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
It traps us in a situation where we can't make
the right choice even when we know what it is,
and in many situations it's pretty hard to discern right
from wrong in the midst of so much violence. Zaul
has been able to fight, but his dad is stuck
fighting against people like his son in order to protect
his daughters. Thousands of families across the country, divided in
(06:45):
the same way by circumstance or ideology. The military is
something of a separate society. It has its own schools
and its own culture, but ethnic armed organizations have not
been close to urban populations either, and so whole new
identities being forged by Generation z while their families often
struggle to abandon all certainties.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
As we record this, Zaw is still fighting, his girlfriend
is still healing. Every few weeks a video of him
and his friends pops up on Reddit or Facebook. They
have optics on their rifles now and are taking long
range shots at the Top Mada who rely on iron sights.
They shoot and reload like soldiers, and they laugh like kids.
The Top Madaw still controls the cities, but to move
(07:36):
between them they have to travel in convoys at breakneck speeds,
using ambushes, mines and knowledge of the terrain. EAOs and
the PDF are able to deny the military access to
large portions of the countryside. Without a serious change in
the conflict, it might stay like this for years. A
report published this month detailed the attacks in the Karini
(07:56):
State by the Top Madaw on churches, residential homes camps
for displaced people, which killed sixty one in the months
since Zau left the city on Christmas Eve in Upruso's township.
They killed at least forty civilians. Autopsy show some were
gagged and burned alive. In recent months, the TOTMADA has
increased its use of air strikes against targets that it
(08:16):
deems legitimate. Ming An Hlang, the junta's leader, flew to
Russia twice. In twenty twenty one, he was proclaimed an
honorary professor of the Military University of the Russian Armed Forces.
We are determined to continue our efforts to strengthen bilateral
ties based on the mutual understanding, respect and trust that
have been established between our two countries, Russian Defense Minister
(08:39):
Sergei Shoigu said at a meeting with the coup leader
on June twenty second. We pay special attention to this
meeting as we see Myanmar as a time tested strategic
partner and a reliable ally in Southeast Asia and the
Asia Pacific region. He went on. Min An Hlang was
equally lavish with his praise, saying that he saw Russia
as a friend forever. Myanmar relies heavily on Russi hind
(09:00):
Mi I thirty five helicopter gunships transport helicopters MiG twenty
nine and SU thirty fighter jets and Yak one thirty
ground attack aircraft to carry out bombing raids and straight civilians.
All of these weapons systems have been seen more recently
in the fighting in Ukraine. One prominent Burmese Irish family,
the kiah Toongs, has helped the junta avoid an international
(09:22):
arms embargo using their global connections and a network of
shady shadow companies. They have purchased helicopters under the pretense
of using them for tourism and the oil and gas industry,
and handed them over to the top MADA. They've also
helped shuttle coastal radar to Myanmar, which the Top Medal
used to track Rohinga refugees and provide cover for several
aircraft purchases. To fund these armed purchases, the top Mada
(09:45):
has found willing markets for luxury goods abroad. According to
Justice for Me Andmar, since the coup in February twenty
twenty one, the United States has imported fifteen hundred and
sixty five metric tons of teak from Myanmar using intermediaries
to avoid sayingtions. In the twenty seventeen twenty eighteen financial year,
the last year for which data is available, the government
(10:06):
received one hundred million US dollars in revenue from taxes
and royalties applied to the timber trade. In twenty twenty one,
there were more shipments than twenty eighteen, offering the top
Madal the chance to make enough money to continue purchasing
weapons to use against their population. The conflict in Myanmar
remains complicated. It's easy to reduce the alphabet soup of
(10:26):
revel groups to EAOs and the PDF, but these groups
and their motivations are diverse. Pierre explained to us that
even within the Kouran there are deep divisions.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
Well, first, you have to know that historically the Kalian
rebellion that started in nineteen forty eight nineteen forty nine,
so quite a long time ago, was led by Christian
by the Christian minority of the Italian people, because obviously
(10:55):
that was the most western ed Ukt people at the time.
And so this Elits kind of reproduced itself in the
new without being the can new is the current National
Union is democratic movement. But you know elits tend to
(11:21):
reproduce themselves, and so most of the leadership, let's say,
of the Karen National Union and the current National Liberation
Army was christian like, and so the Burmese Junta, the
(11:42):
Burmese military government decided to use this to create a
wedge between between the Karen Christians and the Karran Buddhists
and the center a monks to say agitate and tried
(12:04):
to cause this split on religious grounds no uh. And
they succeeded in parts and succeeded to separate a part
of Karent Buddhists that created the Democratic Karen Buddhist Army
d B, which then I like themselves of course to
(12:28):
the to the junta and to to attack the to
attack the Kinel and the Manorplow which of course they
knew all the all the roads there and the defenses
and where was the defense is situated, et cetera. And
succeeded in destroying the capital of the Karen National Union
(12:51):
in Manorplo in ninety five. So that was the situation
pretty much when I arrived.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
It was.
Speaker 5 (13:02):
Like there was not so much territory anymore held by
the Karen. And more importantly is they lost a lot
of income because a lot of their income come from
tax at the border that they can control you know, So, yeah,
(13:23):
that was the situation.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Not every EAO has embraced the National Unity Government directly,
after all, many of its members were enthusiastically running cover
for the Rohinga genocide a few years ago. Many of
the EAOs remain technically under a ceasefire with the Top
Medal and the Top MADA knows that if it pushes
too far into EEO territory, it risks provoking a full
blown response. The eos, meanwhile, have been aiding and training
(13:48):
the PDF, and still maintaining enough deniability that the Top
Meda has not been forced into a confrontation. EAO PDF
alliances look different in different regions and often realities on
the ground, their little relationship to the back door diplomacy
and official stances embraced by leadership and public The.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
War continues to have a huge toll on civilians. According
to United Nations, in total, some four hundred and forty
thousand people have been newly displaced since the coup happened
in February twenty twenty one, adding to an existing three
hundred and seventy thousand who had fled their homes from
earlier waves of violence, and over a million people who
had fled the Rahingia genocide. More than half the population
(14:28):
of Kareni State has fled. Humanitarian access is hard. Much
of the relief effort for displaced people occurs within local communities.
Thousands of refugees a camp along the border with Thailand,
which is defined by rivers. Initially, many people fled into Thailand,
but terrible conditions in refugee camps led some of them
(14:50):
to return to Mi and Mah. Now they weighed across
the river for international aid donations of food and water,
but they can't bring themselves to stay in the crowded
camps overnight, so they waded back to sleep on the
Burmese side of the bank. The UNHCR, the High Commission
on Refugees, has been unable to access camps in Thailand
or Me and Mah to check on the conditions, but
(15:13):
it has urged a Thai government, which has been credibly
accused of forcing people back across the border, to move
people to better conditions further into Thailand instead of keeping
them in camps near the border. And here we find
the unfortunate, unavoidable reality of the civil war in Me
and Mah. For all the uniqueness of aspects of the conflict,
the innovative ways gen Z militias have interfaced with older
(15:34):
ethnic military forces, the three D printed arms, etc. At
the end of the day, this is another brutal, horrific
conflict between large numbers of people who want to be
free and a small number of people who want to
control them. From Miah Mah to Armenia, Ukraine, to Syria,
Ethiopia to Iraq and beyond. The novelties of twenty first
(15:55):
century conflict don't change the fact that, at the end
of the day, each war brings with it what might
be the truest symbol of our current age, parents saying
goodbye to their kids. Camp's filled with desperate people fleeing violence,
governments all over the world willing to send nothing more
than kind words to stern warnings.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
This is a PostScript episode four.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
It's not one that we'd been intending to record, because
it's not news that we'd ever hoped to have to share, But.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Here we are.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Unfortunately, we found out that about ten days after we
last spoke, and a couple of weeks before we released
our podcast, Zor died, and he died in battle fighting
with the Tutmador he's really was, I suppose, an amazingly
brave and courageous young man, and I think that his
(16:53):
loss is one that reflects the realities of what war is,
which is not great and glorious and exciting. It's young
men and sometimes young women, young non binary folks I
imagine too, dying when they had no quarrel with anyone,
(17:16):
when they just wanted to live their lives. Two years ago,
a year and a half ago, even he was just
loving the people he loved, having fun, being a kid,
riding his motorcycle, speaking to his girlfriend on his phone,
living a happy life. And then someone who had power
(17:36):
decided that they wanted to have more power, and they
decided that it didn't matter how many kids had to
die so they could have what they want. And he
decided to say no to that, And that's brave, and
I think all of us would agree that what he
did was right and morally courageous, and that we would
(17:58):
hope to be brave enough to do the same of
this same thing happened to us.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
This once hit me quite hard.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
Honestly, I know this is my job, and this happens,
that it's happened before, and it will happen again. But
he was such a happy, polite, kind young man. He
never didn't pick up the phone, He never got tired
of explaining stuff that we didn't understand, and he always
(18:25):
answered our questions. It was nothing that was off the table.
There was nothing that he wouldn't talk about with us.
He was completely open, And yeah, we will miss him greatly.
He died fighting the thing that we all have to
fight right, fascism, dictatorship, totalitarianism, militarization, and yeah, we will
(18:52):
grieve his loss. Both Robert and I. We've just spoken
on the phone, and we found out because the contact
of mine on the ground sent a Reddit message with
a link to a Facebook post and it's very clearly
zorin no doubt about that. It names him, and unfortunately
it also shows him dead. So we're not in any
(19:14):
doubt that it was him who died, and we're not
in any doubt that we will gravely miss him either.
We both hoped to go over and record with him,
to speak with him, to meet him. I've spoken to
him several times on video, sometimes just to chat, not
even to record anything, just just a chat just to
(19:35):
catch up and look at what each of us was
doing that day. So it's a hard loss for me
and for Robert till as I said, we've just spoken.
So yeah, that's the news that we hadn't hoped to
end on. Obviously, though, this is the reality of war.
(19:56):
As the world is looking at the conflict in Ukraine now,
i'd urge you to look at the conflict in Myanmar
to another Russian bomb killed another nice kid who never
had any quarrel with anyone, who just wanted to live
his life and didn't want to live the rest of
his life with a boot on his neck, so he
(20:18):
decided to stand up against it. As you can probably
hear in my voice, I'm quite upset by his loss
and will be probably for a few days. So I'm
sorry to have to end this podcast on such a
sad note.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I'm sorry for.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
His family who are now caught between the loss of
their son and trying to protect their daughters. I'm sorry
for his girlfriend who's dealing with shrapnel in her own
leg and now the loss of the person she loved.
And I'm sorry for his comrades. And they've said they'll
go on fighting, and I hope they do. And I
(20:58):
don't think there's any point really pretending to be objective
at this stage in the games. And I hope they win,
but I mostly just hope that like one day, young
men and women and everyone else just gets to live
their lives without having to kill and die, because ultimately,
(21:21):
no one should have to and no parents should have
to bury their kids. So yeah, as much as we're
all focusing on Ukraine and what's happening there is terrible.
Please don't forget Zor's comrades, Please don't forget his legacy,
and please don't forget him. We won't and we obviously
want to dedicate this podcast to him and what he
(21:43):
stood for.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
So yeah, thanks. It could Happen here as a production
of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Thanks for listening
I'm Robert Evans, and this is part four of me
and mar printing the revolution.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And then once we got there, we couldn't rest, you know,
rain sun whatever. Women as well, we were all like
try it when they came when we were leaving, they
were all like very fair skinned, beautiful. And then we
went in and then everyone got tanned. In the jungle.
We're training all the time, you know, people in training camp.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
We were driven apart.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
And the reason that we were all doing this is
because of minimal nice Coup as students and how much
he has terrorized the public and the people. And that's
why we were We have this morale and the ability
to get through the training and be able to wield weapons.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Zora and his friends went into the jungles students, programmers
and kids. Now they're fighters. They would tech savvy young
peop what he says. They grew up online and that
generational divide which the Internet brought here came much later
in Memah. It wasn't until twenty eleven that people really
gained actisty internet and with it the new ideas and
(01:13):
identities that they brought. Soul's generation are among the first
to embrace global connectivity and now after having it taken away,
they're refusing to give it up.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
The start of the coup in February, the military, well,
gen Z was organizing online social media and all that,
and they were kind of I think this is from
my experience, but from kind of organizing around like gen
Z is going to be different than the Eightya generation
(01:44):
because we have the Internet, and also we know more
about the world and can come communicate to the rest
of the world. I think one thing that was big
was that in two thousand and eight, it just took
one video leaking out of the country for there to
be big international repercussions.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
It's worth noting that when people in Burma talk about
the Internet, they mean Facebook. Phones come with the Facebook
app installed and it's sometimes exempt from data charges. For
many people in Burma, using the internet means using Facebook.
Zora and his friends are different from their parents in
many ways, not at least in their perceptions of authority.
(02:23):
This has led to a situation where the PDF people's
defense force units are much less hierarchical than units of
the Tamador.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So when we make decisions in our group, there's no
master and student, there's no teacher and student. But you
know the way that it works, there are people who
are good, they're older people who are more trained, and
then there are new recruits, new people who just came in.
So of course the people who are there for longer
(02:51):
and know more about the situation have more voice. And
when we discuss so especially people who were there when
we founded the groups. There are only really eight people
from when we group, so those eight people kind of
discussed on the bigger strategy. You know, we don't really
vote there. He says he wants to do it. He
(03:15):
thinks it's good. We are there's the seven of us
we think is good, or we support him, or someone
says we don't really like that idea, then we don't
do it.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
They try to achieve more gender quality as well. Those
are explained that in his unit, the women are not
always the frontline fighters.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
That's the place there's no discrimination. You know, women can
women and men were training whoever could come. But like
on the battlefield, people, we don't use women that much
on the battlefield. That's one thing that we do know
is that it's not it's not really discrimination. But if
(03:54):
women are with us together, we have a confusion about
whether we need to protect them or we're just fighting
with them, or they're fighting in front of us, and
that there's one thing that is very different is that
in terms of mentality, we can't. We never take the
(04:20):
women out really far into very dangerous fights. So often
they're in the back as backup or to supplies or
things like that. But as you know, the military government,
the military terrorists are very very they're very unethical. They
don't follow the rules, so you know they're going to
(04:41):
shoot whoever they see. So even if they're hanging back
and they're sending medical supplies, they can still get hit.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
For Zora in particular, there's a lot at stake. After
almost an hour and a half of talking, I asked
about his parents. I'd heard of retribution attacks against the
families of fighters and wondered if he was worried about that.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Mom and dad are both they support me fighting against
the military. They're very happy. Dad really wants to do CDM,
but he can't run away because the military has taken
his mother and his sisters. He still has five sisters.
(05:21):
They're all still in that military command their work, they're
in the military school schools, so it's very hard for
them to run away, right, So he really wants to
leave the military, but he can't. So while so that
the fact that I am there trying to fight against
(05:42):
the military is very happy, but he tells me to
be careful about my own life. They're supportive and they
really want to come fight themselves, but they can't because
of my sisters and my mother, so and seeing that
I can do it, it's really wonderful for them. So
his father, his other brother and other people three of
(06:06):
them below him. They have all usually just lived together
with his grandfather and stuff in the military tompounds or
near the military. So he really wants to call all
the people that are still there, but they can't leave.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
This is what civil ward does.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
It traps us in a situation where we can't make
the right choice even when we know what it is,
and in many situations it's pretty hard to discern right
from wrong in the midst of so much violence. Zaul
has been able to fight, but his dad is stuck
fighting against people like his son in order to protect
his daughters. Thousands of families across the country, divided in
(06:45):
the same way by circumstance or ideology. The military is
something of a separate society. It has its own schools
and its own culture, but ethnic armed organizations have not
been close to urban populations either, and so whole new
identities being forged by Generation z while their families often
struggle to abandon all certainties.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
As we record this, Zaw is still fighting, his girlfriend
is still healing. Every few weeks a video of him
and his friends pops up on Reddit or Facebook. They
have optics on their rifles now and are taking long
range shots at the Top Mada who rely on iron sights.
They shoot and reload like soldiers, and they laugh like kids.
The Top Madaw still controls the cities, but to move
(07:36):
between them they have to travel in convoys at breakneck speeds,
using ambushes, mines and knowledge of the terrain. EAOs and
the PDF are able to deny the military access to
large portions of the countryside. Without a serious change in
the conflict, it might stay like this for years. A
report published this month detailed the attacks in the Karini
(07:56):
State by the Top Madaw on churches, residential homes camps
for displaced people, which killed sixty one in the months
since Zau left the city on Christmas Eve in Upruso's township.
They killed at least forty civilians. Autopsy show some were
gagged and burned alive. In recent months, the TOTMADA has
increased its use of air strikes against targets that it
(08:16):
deems legitimate. Ming An Hlang, the junta's leader, flew to
Russia twice. In twenty twenty one, he was proclaimed an
honorary professor of the Military University of the Russian Armed Forces.
We are determined to continue our efforts to strengthen bilateral
ties based on the mutual understanding, respect and trust that
have been established between our two countries, Russian Defense Minister
(08:39):
Sergei Shoigu said at a meeting with the coup leader
on June twenty second. We pay special attention to this
meeting as we see Myanmar as a time tested strategic
partner and a reliable ally in Southeast Asia and the
Asia Pacific region. He went on. Min An Hlang was
equally lavish with his praise, saying that he saw Russia
as a friend forever. Myanmar relies heavily on Russi hind
(09:00):
Mi I thirty five helicopter gunships transport helicopters MiG twenty
nine and SU thirty fighter jets and Yak one thirty
ground attack aircraft to carry out bombing raids and straight civilians.
All of these weapons systems have been seen more recently
in the fighting in Ukraine. One prominent Burmese Irish family,
the kiah Toongs, has helped the junta avoid an international
(09:22):
arms embargo using their global connections and a network of
shady shadow companies. They have purchased helicopters under the pretense
of using them for tourism and the oil and gas industry,
and handed them over to the top MADA. They've also
helped shuttle coastal radar to Myanmar, which the Top Medal
used to track Rohinga refugees and provide cover for several
aircraft purchases. To fund these armed purchases, the top Mada
(09:45):
has found willing markets for luxury goods abroad. According to
Justice for Me Andmar, since the coup in February twenty
twenty one, the United States has imported fifteen hundred and
sixty five metric tons of teak from Myanmar using intermediaries
to avoid sayingtions. In the twenty seventeen twenty eighteen financial year,
the last year for which data is available, the government
(10:06):
received one hundred million US dollars in revenue from taxes
and royalties applied to the timber trade. In twenty twenty one,
there were more shipments than twenty eighteen, offering the top
Madal the chance to make enough money to continue purchasing
weapons to use against their population. The conflict in Myanmar
remains complicated. It's easy to reduce the alphabet soup of
(10:26):
revel groups to EAOs and the PDF, but these groups
and their motivations are diverse. Pierre explained to us that
even within the Kouran there are deep divisions.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
Well, first, you have to know that historically the Kalian
rebellion that started in nineteen forty eight nineteen forty nine,
so quite a long time ago, was led by Christian
by the Christian minority of the Italian people, because obviously
(10:55):
that was the most western ed Ukt people at the time.
And so this Elits kind of reproduced itself in the
new without being the can new is the current National
Union is democratic movement. But you know elits tend to
(11:21):
reproduce themselves, and so most of the leadership, let's say,
of the Karen National Union and the current National Liberation
Army was christian like, and so the Burmese Junta, the
(11:42):
Burmese military government decided to use this to create a
wedge between between the Karen Christians and the Karran Buddhists
and the center a monks to say agitate and tried
(12:04):
to cause this split on religious grounds no uh. And
they succeeded in parts and succeeded to separate a part
of Karent Buddhists that created the Democratic Karen Buddhist Army
d B, which then I like themselves of course to
(12:28):
the to the junta and to to attack the to
attack the Kinel and the Manorplow which of course they
knew all the all the roads there and the defenses
and where was the defense is situated, et cetera. And
succeeded in destroying the capital of the Karen National Union
(12:51):
in Manorplo in ninety five. So that was the situation
pretty much when I arrived.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
It was.
Speaker 5 (13:02):
Like there was not so much territory anymore held by
the Karen. And more importantly is they lost a lot
of income because a lot of their income come from
tax at the border that they can control you know, So, yeah,
(13:23):
that was the situation.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Not every EAO has embraced the National Unity Government directly,
after all, many of its members were enthusiastically running cover
for the Rohinga genocide a few years ago. Many of
the EAOs remain technically under a ceasefire with the Top
Medal and the Top MADA knows that if it pushes
too far into EEO territory, it risks provoking a full
blown response. The eos, meanwhile, have been aiding and training
(13:48):
the PDF, and still maintaining enough deniability that the Top
Meda has not been forced into a confrontation. EAO PDF
alliances look different in different regions and often realities on
the ground, their little relationship to the back door diplomacy
and official stances embraced by leadership and public The.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
War continues to have a huge toll on civilians. According
to United Nations, in total, some four hundred and forty
thousand people have been newly displaced since the coup happened
in February twenty twenty one, adding to an existing three
hundred and seventy thousand who had fled their homes from
earlier waves of violence, and over a million people who
had fled the Rahingia genocide. More than half the population
(14:28):
of Kareni State has fled. Humanitarian access is hard. Much
of the relief effort for displaced people occurs within local communities.
Thousands of refugees a camp along the border with Thailand,
which is defined by rivers. Initially, many people fled into Thailand,
but terrible conditions in refugee camps led some of them
(14:50):
to return to Mi and Mah. Now they weighed across
the river for international aid donations of food and water,
but they can't bring themselves to stay in the crowded
camps overnight, so they waded back to sleep on the
Burmese side of the bank. The UNHCR, the High Commission
on Refugees, has been unable to access camps in Thailand
or Me and Mah to check on the conditions, but
(15:13):
it has urged a Thai government, which has been credibly
accused of forcing people back across the border, to move
people to better conditions further into Thailand instead of keeping
them in camps near the border. And here we find
the unfortunate, unavoidable reality of the civil war in Me
and Mah. For all the uniqueness of aspects of the conflict,
the innovative ways gen Z militias have interfaced with older
(15:34):
ethnic military forces, the three D printed arms, etc. At
the end of the day, this is another brutal, horrific
conflict between large numbers of people who want to be
free and a small number of people who want to
control them. From Miah Mah to Armenia, Ukraine, to Syria,
Ethiopia to Iraq and beyond. The novelties of twenty first
(15:55):
century conflict don't change the fact that, at the end
of the day, each war brings with it what might
be the truest symbol of our current age, parents saying
goodbye to their kids. Camp's filled with desperate people fleeing violence,
governments all over the world willing to send nothing more
than kind words to stern warnings.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
This is a PostScript episode four.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
It's not one that we'd been intending to record, because
it's not news that we'd ever hoped to have to share, But.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Here we are.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Unfortunately, we found out that about ten days after we
last spoke, and a couple of weeks before we released
our podcast, Zor died, and he died in battle fighting
with the Tutmador he's really was, I suppose, an amazingly
brave and courageous young man, and I think that his
(16:53):
loss is one that reflects the realities of what war is,
which is not great and glorious and exciting. It's young
men and sometimes young women, young non binary folks I
imagine too, dying when they had no quarrel with anyone,
(17:16):
when they just wanted to live their lives. Two years ago,
a year and a half ago, even he was just
loving the people he loved, having fun, being a kid,
riding his motorcycle, speaking to his girlfriend on his phone,
living a happy life. And then someone who had power
(17:36):
decided that they wanted to have more power, and they
decided that it didn't matter how many kids had to
die so they could have what they want. And he
decided to say no to that, And that's brave, and
I think all of us would agree that what he
did was right and morally courageous, and that we would
(17:58):
hope to be brave enough to do the same of
this same thing happened to us.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
This once hit me quite hard.
Speaker 4 (18:04):
Honestly, I know this is my job, and this happens,
that it's happened before, and it will happen again. But
he was such a happy, polite, kind young man. He
never didn't pick up the phone, He never got tired
of explaining stuff that we didn't understand, and he always
(18:25):
answered our questions. It was nothing that was off the table.
There was nothing that he wouldn't talk about with us.
He was completely open, And yeah, we will miss him greatly.
He died fighting the thing that we all have to
fight right, fascism, dictatorship, totalitarianism, militarization, and yeah, we will
(18:52):
grieve his loss. Both Robert and I. We've just spoken
on the phone, and we found out because the contact
of mine on the ground sent a Reddit message with
a link to a Facebook post and it's very clearly
zorin no doubt about that. It names him, and unfortunately
it also shows him dead. So we're not in any
(19:14):
doubt that it was him who died, and we're not
in any doubt that we will gravely miss him either.
We both hoped to go over and record with him,
to speak with him, to meet him. I've spoken to
him several times on video, sometimes just to chat, not
even to record anything, just just a chat just to
(19:35):
catch up and look at what each of us was
doing that day. So it's a hard loss for me
and for Robert till as I said, we've just spoken.
So yeah, that's the news that we hadn't hoped to
end on. Obviously, though, this is the reality of war.
(19:56):
As the world is looking at the conflict in Ukraine now,
i'd urge you to look at the conflict in Myanmar
to another Russian bomb killed another nice kid who never
had any quarrel with anyone, who just wanted to live
his life and didn't want to live the rest of
his life with a boot on his neck, so he
(20:18):
decided to stand up against it. As you can probably
hear in my voice, I'm quite upset by his loss
and will be probably for a few days. So I'm
sorry to have to end this podcast on such a
sad note.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
I'm sorry for.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
His family who are now caught between the loss of
their son and trying to protect their daughters. I'm sorry
for his girlfriend who's dealing with shrapnel in her own
leg and now the loss of the person she loved.
And I'm sorry for his comrades. And they've said they'll
go on fighting, and I hope they do. And I
(20:58):
don't think there's any point really pretending to be objective
at this stage in the games. And I hope they win,
but I mostly just hope that like one day, young
men and women and everyone else just gets to live
their lives without having to kill and die, because ultimately,
(21:21):
no one should have to and no parents should have
to bury their kids. So yeah, as much as we're
all focusing on Ukraine and what's happening there is terrible.
Please don't forget Zor's comrades, Please don't forget his legacy,
and please don't forget him. We won't and we obviously
want to dedicate this podcast to him and what he
(21:43):
stood for.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
So yeah, thanks. It could Happen here as a production
of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Thanks for listening
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!