September 8, 2025 • 49 mins
In this emotionally rich episode of Naked Sports, Cari opens up about loss: the recent passing of your grandmother and how that grief became both a wound and a window. Grief, being the ultimate proof of love, was evident in and how the community has shown up with support, reminding Cari of what really matters.
Cari reflects briefly on how that moment shifted her perspective, re-centered her priorities, and made space for meaningful conversations, like the one that follows with today’s guest, the brilliant Selwyn Seyfu Hinds.
Selwyn, a screenwriter, and producer who went from hip-hop journalism as The Source’sformer Editor-in-Chief to Hollywood creative, joins Naked Sports for a wide-ranging conversation. Together, we explore his new Hulu series, Washington Black, a powerful story rooted in human resilience and the refusal to be defined by trauma.
Cari and Selwyn unpack the cultural legacy of ’90s hip-hop, the evolution of storytelling, and the role of Black creatives in shaping narratives that matter. The conversation touches on identity, legacy, and the fight to remain authentic in industries that often want to shape you.
Throughout, there’s a thread of truth: that community, creativity, and perseverance are how we carry forward — in grief, in art, and in life.
Watch: George Washington Black on Hulu
Connect: @CariChampion @SelwynHinds
Subscribe: Naked Sports with Cari Champion
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
The Black Effect is five years strong, and I am
so happy to be here and celebrating.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
But we're just getting started.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Just like today's episode, Welcome to Naked Sports, the podcast
where we live at the intersection of sports, politics, and culture.
Our purpose reveal the common threads that bind them all.
So what's happening in women's basketball right now is what
we've been trying.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
To get to for almost thirty years.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
From the stadiums where athletes break barriers and set records.
Caitlin Quark broke the all time single game assists record.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
This is crazy for rookies to be doing.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Our discussions will uncover the vital connections between these realms
and the community we create. And each episode we'll sit
down with athletes, political analysts, and culture critics because at
the core of it all, how we see one issue
shines the light on all others. Welcome to Naked Sports.
I'm your host, Carrie Champion. Hey everybody, Welcome back to
(01:02):
Naked Sports. Appreciate you all for being here. I am
excited about today's podcast for very many reasons. I am
going to one just letting you know, recommend a series
for y'all to watch. We always need content. My best
friend Kendrick and I we do this thing. We get
on the phone with each other and we're like, where's
the content. We are such a spoiled nation right because
of streaming. We always want something good to watch. So
(01:22):
we have a really good series, which I'm going to
tell you about that. But I'm also going to give
you what I'd like to do, you know, an update.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Family.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
You all have shown up for me in so many
wonderful ways. I talked about losing my grandmother on the
podcast last week and the messages were overwhelming, the phone
calls that what do you need? And I thought to myself,
I did not know that I had such a deep community,
whether it be people I know or don't know, everyone
(01:51):
is so generous. And it's just another reminder, at least
to me that no matter how I feel about the
world that we live in, or what I think of people.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
In general, I'm wrong.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I am learning every day that the compassion of the
everyday citizen, the empathy, the hearts are still there. We
still care. We haven't lost our way. Love to all
those who've reached out to me. Sorry for those I
haven't responded back to right away, but I'm really really grateful,
and I said to a friend of mine that I
(02:25):
am learning to do this dance with grief. It is
a very tricky dance. The lady the lady of grief
is tricky. It ebbs and it flows. As I've mentioned,
so some days are really really amazing and then some
days are really really hard. All still fresh because it's
only been a couple of weeks. However, I think that
(02:47):
I am more transitioning to the space of I feel
her watching over me, and I also feel that grief
is a shared experience. It gives us community, it makes
you more human. I'm relating to people differently.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I'm also I'm.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Also finding that things that bother me don't really matter anymore,
and that is because what matters is the heart, things
of the heart. So I'm really grateful. That's all I
want to say. To the family of Naked Sports, to
my friends, to my chosen family, to my family in general.
And then in the process, as I mentioned earlier, everyone's
(03:29):
recommending shows and I found, with the help of my producer,
jac quis a wonderful show which you all have probably
seen Washington Black on Hulu or you've heard of it.
At least it is a sterling K. Brown project, but
actually the showrunner and writer is a wonderful gentleman who
is on the podcast today. His name is Helen Hines,
(03:50):
and Selwyn Hines has an amazing story, a beautiful arc.
Where he started in his career and where he is
currently is wonderful to show that you can still do
it no matter what.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
At the highest point of his career, when he was
in his early twenties, he was the editor in chief
of a magazine called The Source.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I don't know if you all remember that.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
It was a hip hop magazine and it was The Source,
and there was this and I remember it like it
was yesterday. You can even find it on YouTube. There
were the Source Awards, and those were the infamous awards
where we knew that East Coast versus West Coast was
a real thing. East Coast rappers didn't like West Coast
rappers and vice versa. Shug Knight, the aforementioned Shug Knight,
(04:32):
was not in jail and he went on stage and
he was like talking mad trash about Diddy. He was like,
if you don't want your producer dancing in your videos
and hopping around in your videos literally talking about Diddy
come to death Row. It was just it was crazy.
You'll never see anything like it. It should be a
reality show. Nevertheless, today on Naked Sports, not only are
(04:56):
we going to talk about that great TV show Washington Black,
we're gonna talk about that moment in hip hop and
Selwyn was there to literally document it all because he
was the editor in chief. And I thought that was
just a beautiful way to start today's episode, because not
only do we see this man who is now writing
movies and really great television shows, he started off literally
(05:21):
as a writer for hip hop.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I mean, look at that.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
You can start here and move there and you never
know where your career.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Will take you.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And I needed that inspiration as well. So I hope
you enjoyed today's podcast. I did, and again, family, I
just appreciate y'all so much, so thanks for listening to
Naked Sports.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
My name is Selwyn Safe, who heines. I am a
screenwriter and producer in TV and film, but a lot
of my notoriety in media and in writing comes from
my days as editor in chief of The Source magazine
back in the hip hop nineties.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Explain to me that decade that time. How you were
able to rise to the top of being the editor
in chief of Source, which to me, at one point
for many people was the choice, the source of where
you would go too.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
There was a Source Awards.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
If you needed any information, it was there. That was
the only way that we could catch up with what
we thought was inside of our hip hop industry.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I tell mam, I've got a daughter in her twenties,
and I tell her that the Source then was like
TikTok ig all that stuff like in one right, Like
that was where you got your information, your perspective, your
analysis about hip hop, which is the driving you know,
culture for young people. You know, we were really the
rolling stone of hip hop, if you will. And the
(06:35):
nineties was just an incredible error, incredible moment and you know,
incredible decade. I mean, I think people will look back
at it the way they talk about like the Roaring twenties.
You know, with jazz, you've got everybody from Jade and
Nas to the Fujis, you know, merging and beginning their myth,
beginning their legend, and we were right in the middle
(06:55):
of it. I mean, every major artist you can think of,
you know, they all that they all worked with us,
They've all come to my office. I have all these
stories of you know, everybody from Bust to the Tropical Quest.
They would come to our offices and they'd really come
to my office and put the new album on and
like perform it. So I had all these like imprompts,
(07:17):
you like, you know, concerts in my office back in
the day.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
When I think of Source, the Source hit the magazine,
and then I think of the Hit, there were awards
at the Source awards, remember, it was just it was
they were starting to do what people are doing now.
The branding of it was really amazing. And because I
grew up in La I think of the East Coast
versus West Coast. How would you describe that time, because
just as someone on the outside looking in, all it
reminded me of just you know, Poc and Biggie or
(07:44):
you know Snoop going on stage was like you know where.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
You gonna do? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah? Yeah, things did versus dre like there were all
of these different back and forth which are so simple
and silly. But how would you remember that time? How
would you what synopsis would you give it? For those
who were not aware.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Of it and or old enough that sure, you know,
there's a couple of things that I keep in mind
about that time. I think, you know, we always say
that it was really a tussle between two labels and
two camps of artists that you know, so that got
blown up into entire coasts, right, this is really a
bad boy versus death row sort of situation. I think
(08:22):
about it in terms of the highs of some of
the great music you know that came out of it,
and also with a lot of sadness, you know, with
a lot of sadness. I mean I was there. I
at that Vibe party, maybe six or seven cars behind
Big the night he got shot. And this is not
to ascribe his killing to that particular beef, but it's
(08:43):
more about the climate, you know, you know, you know
that was there when they were both brilliant young men,
brilliant young artists, and to lose both of them within
seven seven month period, it's one of the more like
it was horrific rough times.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, And I.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Don't you obviously I wasn't you know. I just remember
being on on UCLA's campus and they're saying and they're like, oh,
Tupac died.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Yeah, Yeah, And I remember.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
My mother being like, who is this Tupac? They're ascribing him,
They're saying he's similar to Elvis Presley and he was
one of the kind, and they had all of these
and it was so so sad. It was just the
most shocking news you could think of, because the what
ifs of it all really do make you even more sad.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Do you remember where you were when Pod died?
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Yeah, and I was in New York. And what was
wild is if you remember, he didn't die right away,
right and we were closing the magazine, so I actually
had to prepare kind of two different edit letters, one
if he pulled through and one if he passed away,
and I wrote both, and you know, a few days
(09:50):
later we got the news that he didn't make it,
and that's the one that ended up getting printed. But
even just the psychological way of having to say, you know,
Pop gets job and survives again and then Pop passes away.
Doing that at twenty five, it's just it's just, you know,
screws that your mind a little bit.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
It's interesting because when I talk to people who remember
it from New York and were documented you were young,
you were a kid. You were a kid, and I
didn't really even understand what it was. I tell the story,
and I've said this on the podcast before, of how
I was maybe fifteen four fist sixteen when I first
met POC had a hair salon in Pasadena. It was
(10:26):
on those salons where you get your hair done and
the guy could get his haircut, and he walked in
there and I'm just like just starstruck. But he was
also just a kid as well, and so there were
all of these moments that you don't even realize that
become a part of our history.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, you talk about those.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Two letters, what was the difference outside of the outcome.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
You know, one of them, you know, obviously the one
that we didn't run, the one where he survived. I
kind of try to, I kind of I wrote about
Pockets on metaphor for hip hop itself and for young
black cultural stuff, and the idea of the sort of
intensity of pressure and blows and the force is all
(11:08):
trying to push you down and push you down, but
somehow you have the resilience to get back up. You know,
I really really really really really breaks my heart. And
that's not the one that you know that we ran
I can't. I mean, I'm just imagine what he would
be today.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
It's it's just, you know, it would be fascinating.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, I think that was a turning point in hip
hop when he died and Biggie died. I think that
was a turning point in hip hop. Now, I'm not
an officient what did you see change?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
What happened?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Because it was still so hip hop was still so
much in its infancy. We just celebrated the fiftieth anniversary, yeah, recently,
so it was still pretty much in its infancy, if you.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Yeah, yeah, tons tons changed. I mean, you know, those
two were, i'd say, definitively the the leading lights, you
know that we had in the time. You know. Losing
both of them affected not only Bad Boy and the Throw,
but the entire industry. Right. I think from an economic standpoint,
(12:11):
I think we were fortunate in that a couple of
years later, acts like jay Z and DMX and death
Jaz specifically really sort of picked up the weight, you know,
if you will, and charged forward. And it's probably not
a coincidence that, you know, people like jay Z were
friends with you know what Big and people took that
sort of you know, personally. But what I most remember
(12:34):
is the kind of emotional pain, you know, after Big Past,
and we were all, you know, generalizing a little bit,
but we were all between like twenty four and twenty six,
you know, and it just felt like we'd gone through
losing John Lennon twice, you know, and people had a
distinct sense of I don't know what happens next. I
(12:56):
don't know where this goes next. I don't know where
this music goes, where it's called goes unlike anything that
I felt that I felt since, you know, but hip
hop again, I think, is this kind of definition, this
living metaphor of American and cultural and black resilience. And
and we bounced back, I mean, different, never the same.
(13:20):
I mean I wish we had ten albums from From
From Big and Park to look back on the day.
I can't imagine what it'd be artistically.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
That just gave me chills the thought of it. I churse,
because you know, music will narrate your life. I remember
going back to Cali and just you know, everything is
college and driving down you know, Westwood Boulevard leaving campus
and listening to that thinking what is this that I am?
Why is this so this this in my ears, the
reaction to my body, everything.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
That I loved about it.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
In the same with Park, like he was just so
ahead of his time. He watched these documentaries and you're
just like, you were so ahead of your time. I
almost don't even know if you were supposed to. His
songs today have so much relevance. Brenda's Got a Baby.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
You think of those these songs and you're listening to
the words and.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Why do we hate our women?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Why you know, all the things that he was trying
to explain it. I'm just in my mind, I'm like, oh,
this young man was so he was such a prophet.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
Yeah, you're right. I mean historically, you know, cross genre,
across culture, there are areds incredible bright stars that burn fast,
burn early, and burn out, you know, but we're left
with the legacy and we're left with the art all
the things. Maybe Park was just one of those, I hope.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
So of course I'm giving you most of my West
Coast version.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
That's okay, That's how that's how it works.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And I almost you know, I would hate for anybody
to listen to this, and they would fight me because
I am not a music you know. Ahead I don't
know that, but I always think of those stars from
West Coast. Obviously, you guys new n w A. You
don't give me ice cube, but you can't tell me
like that's all home. But then you think who else
picks up the mantle? And we had Nipsey. Nipsey was
a slow burn, not as bright, I think because death
(15:00):
made him even more inviting other people, because you're larger
in death and in life. Sometimes then I'm like, Kendrick
comes in and he brings back this h He is
the epitome of everything they all were, but on such
a much more sophisticated level. Right like he understood the call,
(15:20):
but he took it to an entirely different level. And
then his genius at the Super Bowl, I'm all like,
I I'm here to say it's to me. Hip hop
is one of the most beautiful things, the most beautiful
forms of fact.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
It just is so.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
And while I know that you had a beautiful hand
in that history, you're still doing the same and it
has to feel I don't know if you understand, because
sometimes we don't know when we're doing it, how we
are creating history or her history. However, you would like
to call it. But when you left the Source, did
you feel depressed? Did you feel like when it closed rather,
(15:58):
did you feel like, what's next? Will I be able
to do something just as great?
Speaker 4 (16:02):
That's so weird. I tell people my joke for years,
my joke in my drive, my motivating force, was I
cannot have the first line of my oh bit read
former editor in chief of the Source, right, you know, like,
why not? Because no, because it's fantastic. But I was
(16:22):
so young, right, and it would mean that I peaked
in my twenties, yeah, you know. And and I spent
a lot of years sort of obsessing about that and
being driven, you know by that, especially once I decided
to make the turn and and go to Hollywood. I mean,
I think it was all really beneficial because you need
such a complex out of motivations to push you through
(16:44):
that amount that you have to climb in the world
that I exist now. And I think the the drive
to compete, if you will, with my younger self was
a big part, you know, you know, part of it.
But that's all an equilibrium. Now. I'm happy. I don't
mind have the sources first or second. I feel like
I've done enough work, feels like a body at work.
But early on it's kind of like, man, I'm twenty eight,
(17:06):
Am I done? You know, like it's that feeling, you
know that.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
No one's reading anymore. We don't read anymore in America's
which is evident.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
We cannot have seen. I cannot have seen this time
come in.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Nobody back then, right, nobody, nobody, And it comes so quickly,
and you're like, am I am I with the times?
So you make this turn to Hollywood? And what is
your intention? What are you thinking you're going to do?
What was your goal when you set up?
Speaker 4 (17:31):
I wanted to do much what I did the Source,
which which is two part right, So I wanted to
be able to create work that would speak to the
communities that I'm from, the communities that I care about.
I mean, speak to the whole world, you know, as
a whole, but speak to speak to young black people,
you know, speak speak to the daspora. And secondly, what
(17:52):
I did as an editor the Source, and that I'm
most proud of is really create and architecture, really create
a home for other creatives to come and shine and
then come and do their work. All of the young
writers and photographers like so many people came through the
sources doors back in the day, and so for me,
you know, and coming to Hollywood, it wasn't just about
(18:13):
you know, becoming success as a writer, but also as
a producer, you know, also being able to again create
the vehicles, create the architecture that let other people like
me have a chance as well.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Sure, so when you think of all the projects that
you've worked on thus far, anyone in particular that stands
out where you're most proud? And then is there anyone
that had the most commercial success?
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Well, not necessarily, I think in my place case, they're
pretty close. Obviously. This most recent Baby Washing, the Black
Mike kurrent Shaw and Hulu kind of checks so many
of the boxes. It was a real labor of love.
I really put everything I have as an artist into it.
(18:58):
It's done immensely well and who Lou and I'm completely
you know, you know, proud of it got to you know,
employ fifteen hundred people around the world and two continents
in three countries, you know, so it did all the
things you know pretty close you know, behind it different
because it wasn't my show. I was just a writer
on the show. But I'm also really proud of the
(19:19):
work I did with Jordan Peel on The Twilight Zone,
you know, because I was able to write an episode
that you know, tackled one of our you know, contemporary
issues that hasn't hasn't gone away, this idea of police
praying on our community. And I was able to work
with with the wonderful Sonilthan and a much younger Damson interests.
(19:44):
You know, when I see Daphs and Desas, I'm like
superstar blowing up, you know, like day And you know,
it really did a wonderful episode called Replay that kind
of takes that sci fi fantasy genre portrait of the
Twilight Zone wraps it around a really sharing social political issue.
So I'm really proud of that. This is a piece
(20:04):
of work. But Washing Black is everything man. Working with
Sterling K. Brown, working with Tom Ellis, working with Charles Dance,
It's all the amazing actors you know on the show.
It was. We can talk about that one all day.
Sterling K.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Brown can do no wrong and everything that he touches
I am such a fan of and he's just a
good guy. Yeah, I would like to talk about Washington Black.
So I am watching the episodes last night in preparation.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
But I am telling you.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
I'm like, oh, I've been going and going, but I
love period pieces, so I thought i'd watch and be exhausted.
I was like, wait a second, this is really wonderful.
I'm giving my own review. But I love period pieces.
I really do. I think that's right up my alley,
Like I could watch that all day, but the silliness
in me and I didn't read the book.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
You could if you will, no problem. Can you tell
everyone what the book is about?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
And they don't ask my, my really really super black question?
I have a super super black group in a ghetto question.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Not a problem, but a problem. The series Watching Black
and the book are generally the same, right. It is
a story of It's a period piece. It's about a
young boy who grows up on a sugar plantation in Barbados.
(21:31):
A tragic event happens, and he is forced to flee
that plantation through some slightly fantastical means, and then essentially
proceeds on a coming of age journey around the world,
during which he becomes a great scientist and an inventor
in his own right. The book tells that story linearly, right,
(21:54):
So the the narrator is our lead character as an
adult looking back on this life. The series takes a
nonlinear approach, so you you're meeting both the young character
and the old character and sort of bouncing back, you know,
in between. And there's tons of other differences in terms
of what the show highlights and explores, but that basic
(22:17):
story idea is the same.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Well, his I don't want to say his mentor, but
and then the first episode, I'm watching his mentor would
you call would you call it the starling characteracter? No?
Speaker 4 (22:27):
No, no, yeah, yeah, yeah is that his?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Is his mentor?
Speaker 4 (22:31):
If you would call him, yeah, he's He's a complicated,
flawed mentor. How far have you gotten?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Because I want to ruin it for okay, you don't
don't know. I literally I had just finished episode two,
like carry, there's more. I need everybody to tune in
because it's so good. But there's this wonder like early
on in the series, the first episode, and he's.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Like George Washington Black.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
He was like interesting, like saying his name, like like
you have a lot to live up to, George Washington Black,
And in my mind, I'm like, oh, so clearly you're black.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
George Washington. That's what like this real black.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
I was just like, was that was that where we're
going in the book? He's a black George Washington. I
don't understand. I was like, why is his name George
Washington black?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Are you trying to say he black? George Washington? Just
real hood?
Speaker 1 (23:13):
And I was like, that's my simple connection to right away.
And I was like, that's fascinating actually, and that's how
names probably did come about in that day. There's real simple,
there's nothing, nothing tricky to it. But I thought it
was really beautiful and funny at the same time, because
that's my immediate go to.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
It was such a great actor. What is his name?
Speaker 4 (23:32):
His name is Sims Eddie Kranja Eddie. He is a
young actor from the from the UK oh.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
I thought, so, okay, okay, I thought I heard that.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Yeah, just a beautiful soul, you know, And I mean
that was the most important. I mean also adult watch too,
but the kid part of why the show feels the
way it does in terms of its whimsy and it's dreaminess,
it's optimism, it's joy is because it's from a child pov,
you know, and so.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
That's what that is.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
I didn't know why.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
It felt light, but still it was some moments where like, oh,
that's a little too heavy. I have a problem just
me generally, I don't I don't like to see black
people getting hit by white people.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Sure, I do not.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
I know people like I think my last film that
I watched, it was like twelve years I was like,
I can't do that anymore. It just makes me do
it. It just makes me so angry. I can't take it.
It's it's a revolution.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
But it was so light, and I wanted to talk
to you about that, and yeah, so it is that
the approach when you want to tell those stories that
can be difficult, you take it from a child's point
of view and leave out that and leave out.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
The I think that's part of it, you know. I
also think it is possible to tell those kind of
stories emotionally right, meaning that I don't have to see
somebody getting like whipped and beat and all that stuff.
I need it. I need to see it. I can
feel it in the emotion of the characters.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
I don't want to see it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
It's not it doesn't add any thing. Again, this is
my personal other artist. Well, you know, we'll do it.
You know, differently, I think great actors can carry I'm
living in a place that is restrictive to my soul
and I don't want to be here, and they can
get that across, right, you know, And our whole goal
is that first episode.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Can you say that again?
Speaker 4 (25:18):
I am living in a place that is restrictive to
my soul and I don't want to be here.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
In America, I'm like currently as we exist, and I'm
not saying that if I just I'm seeking for myself,
don't know about nobody else.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I'm living the place.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
It's restrictive to my soul right now, I know, right,
I need't.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Mean to do it.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
I was like, oh no, that was a beautiful that
was very hip hops ahead. No, no, And that's you
know the I talk about the show a lot, you know,
I am I'm a st Indian, I'm Caribbean, right, and
I talk about the show so sometimes. And there's something
that my Jamaican friends would say that the show is
(26:05):
a walk from Babylon to Zion, right, meaning from hell
to heaven. And so you get enough of the hell
in episode one, and that many catapults out of there.
It's a journey divorce, joy and finding his agency and
finding finding who he is.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I think, and now it means you should read the book.
Apparently everyone you should read the book.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
This is what it's telling me right now.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
But I really truly felt a lightness. I don't know
what it is about. And I'm curious if you outside
of reading the book, how do you feel about the
And it's not necessarily it's fiction, right, yeah, but it's not.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
Yes, but it's not exactly exactly exactly.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
So how how do you approach something like that?
Speaker 2 (26:53):
And I use it.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I try to think of just life lessons because everything
seems feasible, everything seems within reach. Dreams are for you
know what I mean? And to be chosen and to
be spotlighted like Wash was and being George Washington Black
Calum Wash, to be chosen because there's something special and
set apart. We all have experienced that, and if we haven't, gosh,
I pray, yeah, I hope we all do experience being
(27:17):
set apart and being and know that you're different in
ways that can set you onto different trajectories. How do
you when you're trying to tell that story, because that
was so beautifully cemented in that first episode, and I
was like, I'm.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
All in on that.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
I love that, I'm all in on that we need
some hope, right.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
We absolutely do. I Mean Sterling always says this every
time he talks about the show, because you know how
people will when they hear about it in a broad sense,
you know, and they know that it starts in a plantation,
you know, they'll they'll have the reaction that you have.
And we have been really adamant about telling people like,
I ain't really what we set out to do. You know,
(27:56):
it's a show about finding joy. It's a show about
just won't ruin it for you as you get deeper,
but you'll find out it's a show about finding your wings. Right, Like,
there's a reason that flying is like the central metaphor,
you know, you know to the show. He is building
a machine, you know, his adult self that will take
him into the sky. And you'll see the way that
kind of develops as you go further and further in
(28:18):
the show. But my kind of central idea was we
all got wings. You know, some of us haven't found
the yet, some of us haven't on Furlom and starts
flying yet. But we all have wings of one kind
or another, and I wanted to write a show that
it would inspire you. If this kid could come where
he came out of and figure out a way to
find his wings to fly.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
We all can We all can't. It's great.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
It does have a very beautiful fantasy element to it.
It's so gorgeous. Thus far, I'll get to you. I'll
call you when you finish, give you my thoughts, tell
you where we could do some rewrites. Look at your
people who don't know nothing, like, let me tell you
what I was thinking about an episode for I know.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
I'm sure you deal with that kind of people too.
That's all. It's hilarious, do you.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
And not to? But this brings some reality into it.
I was joking. But you think about the.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Times that we are in right now currently at the administration,
what we see on television. I do believe eight months
into this new presidency, we nine months in. Rather, I
think Americans in general are shocked. Yeah, I think all Americans.
I don't care what color you are, You're just like, wait,
is this really happening in real life? Some people forwards,
you know, I believe a lot of people are not
(29:32):
for it. The climate that we're in. Does it help
or hurt the series?
Speaker 4 (29:37):
I think it helps it, you know, And obviously I'm
not an objective view right now, but I think it
helps it. I think I think in times like this,
it's a couple of things. I think people need hope,
you know, people need, you know, art that provides them
hope and escape. I think people need art that provides
them a sense of inspiration. I think, particularly for our
(29:58):
community and these times, you also need art that shows
you the different phases of resistance, right, because that's also
what the show is about. But it's about joy as resistance, right.
It's about kindness as resistance. It's about having a sense
of purpose as resistance, you know. You know, because wash
(30:20):
Wash gets a lot of incoming, and he'll get more
and more as he goes through this journey, but his
spirit stays unbowed, right, And I think we're living in
a time where you know, we're catching hell spiritually, and
it's the question of how do we stay unbowed Because
you don't want that stuff to corrupt you and change you,
so you end up looking and feeling and be as
(30:41):
you know, spiritually defunct. As quote unquote, they are right.
So it's how do you maintain How do we maintain
a certain kind of grace? How do we maintain a
certain kind of kindness? How do we maintain a certain
kind of purpose while the world's trying to shoot us down?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
How do we do that? I'm asking, are you a
life coach as well?
Speaker 4 (30:57):
I am?
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Because joy is resistance, you know it, rest is resistance.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Being honest is resistance. Like the simple things.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
That bring you the easiest joy that you can find,
or the easiest way to live is so hard to do,
or it feels as if well, you know.
Speaker 4 (31:14):
I think the way I do it, I mean, no surprise,
writers just replicate themselves in their shows is the same
way that Wash does it, and that the show suggests,
which is the role of family, you know, Washing Black,
as much of anything else, is about family, and like
chosen family, right, not just like my bluff. The people
that you choose to surround yourself with, they should provide
(31:40):
you with like respite spiritually, you know, you should all
when it works, You know, we should all be kind
of mutually reinforcing each other because nobody's going to get
through times like like this alone. You know. So I
think family is key, and whether that's your found family
of two or twenty, who knows, right, But the point
(32:00):
and is like, don't isolate, don't go through these times
by yourself.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
I haven't really understood that until obviously this current situation
and you pay attention to the world. I am so
protective over my space. I am Carrie who all going
to be their champion? I am you know what I mean, like,
because it's so necessary. Right now everything is so fragile
(32:24):
and it's not bleak, but it is fragile. So I
do enjoy the idea of a chosen family or your
family and friends and making sure they give you peace
and spiritually. It is so important. I don't think people
even really understand how important it is.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
There is a we were talking about this maybe a
couple of months ago on the podcast and I was
listening to this one clip and it was about the
art of frenemies, people who are actively your friends but
really don't like and you keep them around very healthy.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
It's a real thing.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
And I was like, I I've done that, you know,
because maybe it's the access or perhaps resources or what
you or what you think you liked.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
About them, or maybe you've moved on.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
And I realize that is so unhealthy, but much more
normalized than being around people who make you feel good.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Believe it or not. The show will touch on that
another reason. Yeah, there's you know.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Sometimes I know but by the way, I mean, I
have an idea and I.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Know, I was like, I don't want to ruin it,
but yes, I was like, that's disappointing everybody.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
You're supposed to be there, everybody.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Life is supposed to be there, and that's a disappointment.
That is a disappointment of life.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I love this.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Okay, So okay, with that being said, if you were
to uh tell anyone uh to watch the show, you
can watch it over and over again. It's also one
of those shows that you can watch over and over again.
Please do over and over again just for to feel good.
I can tell that already. But if there is someone
who is saying, you know what I want to do?
Speaker 4 (34:00):
What you do?
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Look how you look at this beautiful career you've created
for yourself. There is no blueprint. I love how people
think you just sit down and you figure it out,
and nine times out of ten you stumble into something great,
and you're like, wait this works. You know you you
moved to Hollywood to pursue Hollywood, So were you an
overnight success?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yeah? Did it happen right away? Says it happens right away?
Speaker 4 (34:28):
Right, yeah? Mixing it always it always looks that way
from the outside, you know, like, oh, this is yesterday,
but obviously it does not. I think, I think I've
I've had a rapid success, but those years of agony
and pain, you know, I mean, look, keeping it completely real.
I mean, I left New York when I'm going to
(34:49):
Hollywood fifteen fourteen years ago, something like that. But you know,
after a very successful career as an editor and a
writer and this and that, and you know, moving to Hollywood,
I'm signed by w Ame, like all the fancy things,
and then you know, two and a half years, I'm
a forty some year old man sleeping on my father's
couch for ten dollars in the bank. Right like it
(35:10):
is the likewash, you got to have the mental commitment
to walk from Babylon to Zion because you are going
to go through Everybody has their own version of the
I had to sleep in my car story, right, Like
the specifics might change but the kind of idea that
the business is going to break you all the way
(35:30):
down before you can get back up to the top
is real, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
So why do you think that is talked about?
Speaker 4 (35:37):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I think success requires an intimate knowledge
of sacrifice. I do, I do. I think. I think.
I think true success, true success that is selfless, right,
because I think there's a way to be successful that's
also like selfish that I think is ephemeral, that that
you know that what does it mean that goes away?
(35:59):
Meaning like you know, you see people who like achieve
whatever the brass ring and it's all about them and
not necessarily like the community that they came from, the
people that empowered them along the way. And maybe it's
karmik maybe because I'm a believer like in karma, I
don't think that kind of success lasts, right because I
(36:19):
think no one ever stays at the top of whatever
your discipline is, like you like, like this happens, and
if you don't have if you haven't been self lessed
at the top, if you haven't brought your family or
you know, your chosen family with you, if you haven't
empowered people on the way, there's nobody to catch you
when this happens, and this will happen like nobody stays
(36:40):
like that. You know you're gonna do that. So I
think the hard times that all of us go through, hopefully,
I'm sure there's no part of everybody on your way
up the top of the ladder is to teach you
that kind of empathy, right, you know, like you should
never forget what it feels like, you know, when you
whatever you're doing fine to be like I remember it
felt like to be like, oh man, I gotta choose
(37:02):
life bill of food, right, you know I got it
beside like am I doing the three piece? Like chicken tenders?
You know what I mean? You should have a ting.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
What life is about, because it makes you appreciate.
Speaker 4 (37:17):
That thanks you appreciated, and I think makes you much
more empathetic towards people who were trying to do what
you wanted. What what you've done?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
You know, so rapid success? What happened? Are you still
with w and noses?
Speaker 4 (37:29):
No? I love my friends, endeavor.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
I'm a ceass the street. Oh that's cool.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
I love, love love my team there. They've been very
very very good to me and you know, just just
trying to be a black man in his business, making
work that matters, and making work there counts, and making
work that looks like us.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I have been told over and over again when I
am everything that I've done is for the culture collectively
women also. But like I'm standing on black and brown
because that's my experience and I know very intimately. But
so if I start a foundation and I call it
(38:21):
Brown Girls Dream, I'm always told do you really want
to call it that? I'm like, yeah, because we all
have a dream and we're brown girls. Well, you know,
as opposed to Carrie Champion foundation. People always name some
chapter themselves. And then there is this conversation that I've
been having and it's popping up all the time, and
my good friends are gently saying this to me, my
chosen family. I don't know if this is the time
(38:43):
to be speaking out. I don't know if you should
be saying what you're saying. And I'm not up there
like fuck the police, I hate whitey. You know, I'm
literally just speaking facts and suggesting that what is wrong
is wrong, and it's clear that it's wrong. And I
had a girlfriend on the podcast shout out to my
(39:05):
friend Aaron Haynes, the new president n ABJ, which is
the National Association.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Of Black.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
And she said, and sometimes I wonder is it worth it?
Because when it's all said and done, if you were
here doing work specifically trying to uplift the culture and
build the culture, do you ever find that that will
prevent you from doing something that is And I don't
even want to use the word mainstream because that would
(39:32):
be century whites.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
But do you think that would prevent you?
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Do you think it has prevented you from doing work
that would be considered mainstream.
Speaker 4 (39:44):
I don't think so at all. And look, you know,
people have different approaches to this. I think mine comes
out of being a hip hop kid, right, So for me,
it's like I take the full essence of who I
am into whatever I do, so you know, you know perfect.
I mean, I'll talk about a couple of other things
(40:05):
I've done because I mean, as you may know, you
can do a lot of stuff in Hollywood that the
public doesn't see, right because it just doesn't get you know, produced.
But I've been lucky enough to do some really cool stuff.
I mean, so not only have I don't watch him
black like I also wrote the first not the first,
but I also wrote like a big, huge, like Joker
movie that never got made. Right. So, like after Jared
(40:25):
Leto did this whole suit squad thoughts, you know, squad
thing he was, you know, he's going to do the
Joker solo film, you know up at DC. So I wrote,
I wrote that movie, and you know it's a big,
splashy com book film. But I think there's something about
the way I wrote the central characters that that was
very hip hop, you know what I mean, That was
(40:46):
very like reflective of who I am as an artistan
and a writer. You know. Obviously, quick cut that movie
did not come out because they also made this other
Joker movie that made ten billion dollars, and that happens
in Hollywood, you know, all the time. But it's more
alterative the fact that, like my career hasn't constrained me
to like, well, you just got to sit in this
corner and do this, you know what I mean. It's like, no,
(41:08):
I do everything, I just do it from the pov
of you know, a Caribbean kid who moved to Brooklyn
as a teenager and grew up in Flatbush and you
know worked, you know what I mean? Like like the
full totality of who I am. So, you know, hopefully
I continue to do that. And I would encourage, you know,
other writers and whatever you're disciplined, other artists, you know,
(41:28):
to sort of think that way. Don't feel don't feel limited,
but by who you are, bring who you are to everything.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
That is a bold thing to do in today's America,
when everyone is.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
Looking for followers, you're trying to reduce themselves and.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Reduce themselves to to fit into what they think works.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Where does that come from?
Speaker 4 (41:48):
Yeah, well, you know, you know, the the governing. I
think emotion POV on a mass level is fair, right,
and I think it's justifiable, right. I mean, and it's
you go back to high school with that, right, Like
we're afraid, so we conform and we want to fit in.
We don't want to like stand out, we don't want
to get bullied like that. That's an essential sort of
(42:11):
human state. But I also think things like bravery and
standing up for oneself and standing up for one's family
and standing up for one's community are also an essential
part of the human condition as well. And I think
our survival as people as a community in these times
are going to require everybody for themselves negotiating that balance
(42:35):
between those two things.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Okay, that to end in So those things are just
you say it so eloquently.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
It just requires and you just do it and then
it should be fine and we'll do it tomorrow. You
be yourself, tomorrow, be great, tomorrow, Okay, good. I don't
need you to come with all this wisdom with that
I do. I'm kidding, but you know my point being
is that is just so effortlessless.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
And I just think that really just requires us sense
of self.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
I'm like, yeah, are you selling that?
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Is that the next show.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
How to where the book be a good idea? Just
really just double down on that, double down in an
authentic way, like I think I think everyone goes about, yeah,
I'm myself, and myself with the authenticity of it is
clearly lacking.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
And the confidence.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
So what you speak from is experience and from a
level of confidence that you have from your experiences.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
For those who don't have that, how does that work?
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Because confidence is I mean, I enjoy mine, but it
can it can work against you as well.
Speaker 4 (43:34):
Sure, sure, and it's not you know, and to be fair,
it's not the easiest thing in the world to, you know,
to build. I don't want to make it sound like
it's just so you like you drink a magic juice
and you're all this, but to go back something that
we're tiring about before. I also think this is why
family is so important, you know what I mean, because
(43:55):
strength multiplies, you know, bravery multiplies. You know, like we
all feel, including me, you know, afraid and unsure and
anxious on our own, you know, isolated, like who's that
friend you can call, Who's that family member that who
makes you feel stronger and better and more confident about
(44:17):
your place in the world. So maybe I guess what
we're coming to is beyond all the kind of high
falutine like thematic and intellectual stuff like the key thing
for this moment, you know, talking about where we are
in the country really does go back to nurturing. Who
are you? Who do you surround yourself with? That's right,
you know, who gives you what you need to get
(44:39):
to get to the days? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, if you look around and you got to see
if it's right or wrong. And also I got to
be honest with you. I know, the idea of hanging
around the cool kids is it? But I have never
been able.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
To do that.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
I just like so I like my own company.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
I think it's the only child in me.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Oh yeah, well, let me be clear because I have
brothers and sisters, Papo, I love them.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
I love you all. If you're watching it before I
let you go.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Any projects that you're working on that we should know
about up and coming or you can't talk about it,
or is there something that you want us to do
as a community to make sure that we are watching
Washington Black.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
Yeah, no, thank you for that. Well, let's start with
one first. Thank you guys here, and thank you to
everybody who has already watched Washington Black, because it's it's
done really well, really well, and I hope people, as
you said, watch it again and again and again. I
think there's lessons and layers in there. So I'm really
excited about that. I can't talk about a couple of
(45:40):
new things. Sterling and I just sold a new show
to Netflix.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
Oh congratulation, change, change, give me two dollars.
Speaker 4 (45:50):
So all super excited to continue our our creative relationship.
It's a show called The Trees. I'm just producing this
for not writing it. It'll be written by an amazing
writer named Marcus Gardley. It'll be on Netflix. It's adapted
from a book by Percival Everett, who is one of
our treasures of writing in this country. So super excited
(46:12):
about that. And then right behind that, I've been developing
a one hour drama with Usher that is inspired by
his Confession's album. So I will leave that for your imagine.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Is he starting it, is he cheating?
Speaker 4 (46:29):
He is producing it? And if you have listened to
the record, which I know you have over and over,
you can imagine it's not little. It's a fictionalized inspiration
from the album, and it goes.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Young Carey is ready, she ready for the tt okay,
Young Cary. You remember his confession really meant a lot
to me.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
It changed my life. He educated us. I appreciated that truth.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
Well, I'll have to come back with him.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
Yeah, I love that. I'm so happy for you.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
You really deserve I'm so happy. Let me let me
just say this shout out to Jock Quee, producer. She
was like, she was like, I really would like she's
been pressing this and she was like she knew it.
Young director in the making, still directing producer, extravagant does
all the things she's a creative spirit as well. So
thank you for bringing him to my world.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
It has been such a pleasure to meet you, Selwyn amazing.
Thank you for being here so much.
Speaker 4 (47:21):
Have a great bag, you.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Too, Washington Black. Seriously, you guys have to watch it.
Know who will support this man?
Speaker 1 (47:28):
At least turn it on, at least right let him
get some streams because y'all know what we need all
the help we can get. And I also I also
am very very proud of him for saying.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
I can do work for the culture.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
I can always bring my POV to every scene, every
single thing that I do, and it doesn't limit me.
It doesn't mean that if I'm only doing a movie
about a young black slave who turns into this great scientist,
I can't write a movie about the Joker. We can
do all these things. We are not a monolith. We
can live in so many different worlds. And I think
it is his confidence that encouraged me today to still
(48:04):
be you, the authentic you, and I hope that you
were able to take that away. He felt very authentic,
felt very in touch with what his purpose is. That's
arguably the bigger point, Like what is your goal? What
do you want to do? What does that look like?
Figure all that out, but find out a way to
do it authentically. And all of these messages, I can
feel myself saying, Oh, I need that. I needed to
(48:25):
hear that. I needed to hear that. So today's podcast
for me very restoring. I hope you enjoyed it. We
have how many more episodes left, Jack Quiz?
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Four? Three?
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Three more episodes left before we push on to a
season five?
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Three? Can you imagine we season five years? Jack Quiz?
Speaker 3 (48:45):
Can you still like me after five years?
Speaker 2 (48:46):
That's wild? We go together, that's wild. She loves me? Ah,
that's even more wild. Thank you all for listening. We
appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Shout out to Dwayne. We ain't seen Dwayne in it forever.
We're gonna get him back maybe hopefully.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
We love you too.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Duane, thanks for listening and celebrating five years of the
Black Effect podcast network.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
We really appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Keep following and sharing and streaming and telling everyone about
what we're doing over here, especially for my show Naked Sports,
because the next five they're about to be even better.
Follow us on all the socials Black Effect. Join the conversation.
With us at hashtag black Effect turns five and keep
supporting its most important keep supporting the voices and shifting
the culture. Naked Sports written and executive produced by me
(49:34):
Carrie Champion, produced by Joacquise Thomas, sound designed and mastered
by Dwayne Crawford. Naked Sports is a part of the
Black Effect podcast
Speaker 2 (49:42):
Network in iHeartMedia
The Black Effect is five years strong, and I am
so happy to be here and celebrating.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
But we're just getting started.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Just like today's episode, Welcome to Naked Sports, the podcast
where we live at the intersection of sports, politics, and culture.
Our purpose reveal the common threads that bind them all.
So what's happening in women's basketball right now is what
we've been trying.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
To get to for almost thirty years.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
From the stadiums where athletes break barriers and set records.
Caitlin Quark broke the all time single game assists record.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
This is crazy for rookies to be doing.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Our discussions will uncover the vital connections between these realms
and the community we create. And each episode we'll sit
down with athletes, political analysts, and culture critics because at
the core of it all, how we see one issue
shines the light on all others. Welcome to Naked Sports.
I'm your host, Carrie Champion. Hey everybody, Welcome back to
(01:02):
Naked Sports. Appreciate you all for being here. I am
excited about today's podcast for very many reasons. I am
going to one just letting you know, recommend a series
for y'all to watch. We always need content. My best
friend Kendrick and I we do this thing. We get
on the phone with each other and we're like, where's
the content. We are such a spoiled nation right because
of streaming. We always want something good to watch. So
(01:22):
we have a really good series, which I'm going to
tell you about that. But I'm also going to give
you what I'd like to do, you know, an update.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Family.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
You all have shown up for me in so many
wonderful ways. I talked about losing my grandmother on the
podcast last week and the messages were overwhelming, the phone
calls that what do you need? And I thought to myself,
I did not know that I had such a deep community,
whether it be people I know or don't know, everyone
(01:51):
is so generous. And it's just another reminder, at least
to me that no matter how I feel about the
world that we live in, or what I think of people.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
In general, I'm wrong.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I am learning every day that the compassion of the
everyday citizen, the empathy, the hearts are still there. We
still care. We haven't lost our way. Love to all
those who've reached out to me. Sorry for those I
haven't responded back to right away, but I'm really really grateful,
and I said to a friend of mine that I
(02:25):
am learning to do this dance with grief. It is
a very tricky dance. The lady the lady of grief
is tricky. It ebbs and it flows. As I've mentioned,
so some days are really really amazing and then some
days are really really hard. All still fresh because it's
only been a couple of weeks. However, I think that
(02:47):
I am more transitioning to the space of I feel
her watching over me, and I also feel that grief
is a shared experience. It gives us community, it makes
you more human. I'm relating to people differently.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I'm also I'm.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Also finding that things that bother me don't really matter anymore,
and that is because what matters is the heart, things
of the heart. So I'm really grateful. That's all I
want to say. To the family of Naked Sports, to
my friends, to my chosen family, to my family in general.
And then in the process, as I mentioned earlier, everyone's
(03:29):
recommending shows and I found, with the help of my producer,
jac quis a wonderful show which you all have probably
seen Washington Black on Hulu or you've heard of it.
At least it is a sterling K. Brown project, but
actually the showrunner and writer is a wonderful gentleman who
is on the podcast today. His name is Helen Hines,
(03:50):
and Selwyn Hines has an amazing story, a beautiful arc.
Where he started in his career and where he is
currently is wonderful to show that you can still do
it no matter what.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
At the highest point of his career, when he was
in his early twenties, he was the editor in chief
of a magazine called The Source.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I don't know if you all remember that.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
It was a hip hop magazine and it was The Source,
and there was this and I remember it like it
was yesterday. You can even find it on YouTube. There
were the Source Awards, and those were the infamous awards
where we knew that East Coast versus West Coast was
a real thing. East Coast rappers didn't like West Coast
rappers and vice versa. Shug Knight, the aforementioned Shug Knight,
(04:32):
was not in jail and he went on stage and
he was like talking mad trash about Diddy. He was like,
if you don't want your producer dancing in your videos
and hopping around in your videos literally talking about Diddy
come to death Row. It was just it was crazy.
You'll never see anything like it. It should be a
reality show. Nevertheless, today on Naked Sports, not only are
(04:56):
we going to talk about that great TV show Washington Black,
we're gonna talk about that moment in hip hop and
Selwyn was there to literally document it all because he
was the editor in chief. And I thought that was
just a beautiful way to start today's episode, because not
only do we see this man who is now writing
movies and really great television shows, he started off literally
(05:21):
as a writer for hip hop.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I mean, look at that.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
You can start here and move there and you never
know where your career.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Will take you.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And I needed that inspiration as well. So I hope
you enjoyed today's podcast. I did, and again, family, I
just appreciate y'all so much, so thanks for listening to
Naked Sports.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
My name is Selwyn Safe, who heines. I am a
screenwriter and producer in TV and film, but a lot
of my notoriety in media and in writing comes from
my days as editor in chief of The Source magazine
back in the hip hop nineties.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Explain to me that decade that time. How you were
able to rise to the top of being the editor
in chief of Source, which to me, at one point
for many people was the choice, the source of where
you would go too.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
There was a Source Awards.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
If you needed any information, it was there. That was
the only way that we could catch up with what
we thought was inside of our hip hop industry.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I tell mam, I've got a daughter in her twenties,
and I tell her that the Source then was like
TikTok ig all that stuff like in one right, Like
that was where you got your information, your perspective, your
analysis about hip hop, which is the driving you know,
culture for young people. You know, we were really the
rolling stone of hip hop, if you will. And the
(06:35):
nineties was just an incredible error, incredible moment and you know,
incredible decade. I mean, I think people will look back
at it the way they talk about like the Roaring twenties.
You know, with jazz, you've got everybody from Jade and
Nas to the Fujis, you know, merging and beginning their myth,
beginning their legend, and we were right in the middle
(06:55):
of it. I mean, every major artist you can think of,
you know, they all that they all worked with us,
They've all come to my office. I have all these
stories of you know, everybody from Bust to the Tropical Quest.
They would come to our offices and they'd really come
to my office and put the new album on and
like perform it. So I had all these like imprompts,
(07:17):
you like, you know, concerts in my office back in
the day.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
When I think of Source, the Source hit the magazine,
and then I think of the Hit, there were awards
at the Source awards, remember, it was just it was
they were starting to do what people are doing now.
The branding of it was really amazing. And because I
grew up in La I think of the East Coast
versus West Coast. How would you describe that time, because
just as someone on the outside looking in, all it
reminded me of just you know, Poc and Biggie or
(07:44):
you know Snoop going on stage was like you know where.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
You gonna do? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah? Yeah, things did versus dre like there were all
of these different back and forth which are so simple
and silly. But how would you remember that time? How
would you what synopsis would you give it? For those
who were not aware.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Of it and or old enough that sure, you know,
there's a couple of things that I keep in mind
about that time. I think, you know, we always say
that it was really a tussle between two labels and
two camps of artists that you know, so that got
blown up into entire coasts, right, this is really a
bad boy versus death row sort of situation. I think
(08:22):
about it in terms of the highs of some of
the great music you know that came out of it,
and also with a lot of sadness, you know, with
a lot of sadness. I mean I was there. I
at that Vibe party, maybe six or seven cars behind
Big the night he got shot. And this is not
to ascribe his killing to that particular beef, but it's
(08:43):
more about the climate, you know, you know, you know
that was there when they were both brilliant young men,
brilliant young artists, and to lose both of them within
seven seven month period, it's one of the more like
it was horrific rough times.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, And I.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Don't you obviously I wasn't you know. I just remember
being on on UCLA's campus and they're saying and they're like, oh,
Tupac died.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Yeah, Yeah, And I remember.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
My mother being like, who is this Tupac? They're ascribing him,
They're saying he's similar to Elvis Presley and he was
one of the kind, and they had all of these
and it was so so sad. It was just the
most shocking news you could think of, because the what
ifs of it all really do make you even more sad.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Do you remember where you were when Pod died?
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Yeah, and I was in New York. And what was
wild is if you remember, he didn't die right away,
right and we were closing the magazine, so I actually
had to prepare kind of two different edit letters, one
if he pulled through and one if he passed away,
and I wrote both, and you know, a few days
(09:50):
later we got the news that he didn't make it,
and that's the one that ended up getting printed. But
even just the psychological way of having to say, you know,
Pop gets job and survives again and then Pop passes away.
Doing that at twenty five, it's just it's just, you know,
screws that your mind a little bit.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
It's interesting because when I talk to people who remember
it from New York and were documented you were young,
you were a kid. You were a kid, and I
didn't really even understand what it was. I tell the story,
and I've said this on the podcast before, of how
I was maybe fifteen four fist sixteen when I first
met POC had a hair salon in Pasadena. It was
(10:26):
on those salons where you get your hair done and
the guy could get his haircut, and he walked in
there and I'm just like just starstruck. But he was
also just a kid as well, and so there were
all of these moments that you don't even realize that
become a part of our history.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, you talk about those.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Two letters, what was the difference outside of the outcome.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
You know, one of them, you know, obviously the one
that we didn't run, the one where he survived. I
kind of try to, I kind of I wrote about
Pockets on metaphor for hip hop itself and for young
black cultural stuff, and the idea of the sort of
intensity of pressure and blows and the force is all
(11:08):
trying to push you down and push you down, but
somehow you have the resilience to get back up. You know,
I really really really really really breaks my heart. And
that's not the one that you know that we ran
I can't. I mean, I'm just imagine what he would
be today.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
It's it's just, you know, it would be fascinating.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, I think that was a turning point in hip
hop when he died and Biggie died. I think that
was a turning point in hip hop. Now, I'm not
an officient what did you see change?
Speaker 2 (11:39):
What happened?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Because it was still so hip hop was still so
much in its infancy. We just celebrated the fiftieth anniversary, yeah, recently,
so it was still pretty much in its infancy, if you.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Yeah, yeah, tons tons changed. I mean, you know, those
two were, i'd say, definitively the the leading lights, you
know that we had in the time. You know. Losing
both of them affected not only Bad Boy and the Throw,
but the entire industry. Right. I think from an economic standpoint,
(12:11):
I think we were fortunate in that a couple of
years later, acts like jay Z and DMX and death
Jaz specifically really sort of picked up the weight, you know,
if you will, and charged forward. And it's probably not
a coincidence that, you know, people like jay Z were
friends with you know what Big and people took that
sort of you know, personally. But what I most remember
(12:34):
is the kind of emotional pain, you know, after Big Past,
and we were all, you know, generalizing a little bit,
but we were all between like twenty four and twenty six,
you know, and it just felt like we'd gone through
losing John Lennon twice, you know, and people had a
distinct sense of I don't know what happens next. I
(12:56):
don't know where this goes next. I don't know where
this music goes, where it's called goes unlike anything that
I felt that I felt since, you know, but hip
hop again, I think, is this kind of definition, this
living metaphor of American and cultural and black resilience. And
and we bounced back, I mean, different, never the same.
(13:20):
I mean I wish we had ten albums from From
From Big and Park to look back on the day.
I can't imagine what it'd be artistically.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
That just gave me chills the thought of it. I churse,
because you know, music will narrate your life. I remember
going back to Cali and just you know, everything is
college and driving down you know, Westwood Boulevard leaving campus
and listening to that thinking what is this that I am?
Why is this so this this in my ears, the
reaction to my body, everything.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
That I loved about it.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
In the same with Park, like he was just so
ahead of his time. He watched these documentaries and you're
just like, you were so ahead of your time. I
almost don't even know if you were supposed to. His
songs today have so much relevance. Brenda's Got a Baby.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
You think of those these songs and you're listening to
the words and.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Why do we hate our women?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Why you know, all the things that he was trying
to explain it. I'm just in my mind, I'm like, oh,
this young man was so he was such a prophet.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
Yeah, you're right. I mean historically, you know, cross genre,
across culture, there are areds incredible bright stars that burn fast,
burn early, and burn out, you know, but we're left
with the legacy and we're left with the art all
the things. Maybe Park was just one of those, I hope.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
So of course I'm giving you most of my West
Coast version.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
That's okay, That's how that's how it works.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And I almost you know, I would hate for anybody
to listen to this, and they would fight me because
I am not a music you know. Ahead I don't
know that, but I always think of those stars from
West Coast. Obviously, you guys new n w A. You
don't give me ice cube, but you can't tell me
like that's all home. But then you think who else
picks up the mantle? And we had Nipsey. Nipsey was
a slow burn, not as bright, I think because death
(15:00):
made him even more inviting other people, because you're larger
in death and in life. Sometimes then I'm like, Kendrick
comes in and he brings back this h He is
the epitome of everything they all were, but on such
a much more sophisticated level. Right like he understood the call,
(15:20):
but he took it to an entirely different level. And
then his genius at the Super Bowl, I'm all like,
I I'm here to say it's to me. Hip hop
is one of the most beautiful things, the most beautiful
forms of fact.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
It just is so.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
And while I know that you had a beautiful hand
in that history, you're still doing the same and it
has to feel I don't know if you understand, because
sometimes we don't know when we're doing it, how we
are creating history or her history. However, you would like
to call it. But when you left the Source, did
you feel depressed? Did you feel like when it closed rather,
(15:58):
did you feel like, what's next? Will I be able
to do something just as great?
Speaker 4 (16:02):
That's so weird. I tell people my joke for years,
my joke in my drive, my motivating force, was I
cannot have the first line of my oh bit read
former editor in chief of the Source, right, you know, like,
why not? Because no, because it's fantastic. But I was
(16:22):
so young, right, and it would mean that I peaked
in my twenties, yeah, you know. And and I spent
a lot of years sort of obsessing about that and
being driven, you know by that, especially once I decided
to make the turn and and go to Hollywood. I mean,
I think it was all really beneficial because you need
such a complex out of motivations to push you through
(16:44):
that amount that you have to climb in the world
that I exist now. And I think the the drive
to compete, if you will, with my younger self was
a big part, you know, you know, part of it.
But that's all an equilibrium. Now. I'm happy. I don't
mind have the sources first or second. I feel like
I've done enough work, feels like a body at work.
But early on it's kind of like, man, I'm twenty eight,
(17:06):
Am I done? You know, like it's that feeling, you
know that.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
No one's reading anymore. We don't read anymore in America's
which is evident.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
We cannot have seen. I cannot have seen this time
come in.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Nobody back then, right, nobody, nobody, And it comes so quickly,
and you're like, am I am I with the times?
So you make this turn to Hollywood? And what is
your intention? What are you thinking you're going to do?
What was your goal when you set up?
Speaker 4 (17:31):
I wanted to do much what I did the Source,
which which is two part right, So I wanted to
be able to create work that would speak to the
communities that I'm from, the communities that I care about.
I mean, speak to the whole world, you know, as
a whole, but speak to speak to young black people,
you know, speak speak to the daspora. And secondly, what
(17:52):
I did as an editor the Source, and that I'm
most proud of is really create and architecture, really create
a home for other creatives to come and shine and
then come and do their work. All of the young
writers and photographers like so many people came through the
sources doors back in the day, and so for me,
you know, and coming to Hollywood, it wasn't just about
(18:13):
you know, becoming success as a writer, but also as
a producer, you know, also being able to again create
the vehicles, create the architecture that let other people like
me have a chance as well.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Sure, so when you think of all the projects that
you've worked on thus far, anyone in particular that stands
out where you're most proud? And then is there anyone
that had the most commercial success?
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Well, not necessarily, I think in my place case, they're
pretty close. Obviously. This most recent Baby Washing, the Black
Mike kurrent Shaw and Hulu kind of checks so many
of the boxes. It was a real labor of love.
I really put everything I have as an artist into it.
(18:58):
It's done immensely well and who Lou and I'm completely
you know, you know, proud of it got to you know,
employ fifteen hundred people around the world and two continents
in three countries, you know, so it did all the
things you know pretty close you know, behind it different
because it wasn't my show. I was just a writer
on the show. But I'm also really proud of the
(19:19):
work I did with Jordan Peel on The Twilight Zone,
you know, because I was able to write an episode
that you know, tackled one of our you know, contemporary
issues that hasn't hasn't gone away, this idea of police
praying on our community. And I was able to work
with with the wonderful Sonilthan and a much younger Damson interests.
(19:44):
You know, when I see Daphs and Desas, I'm like
superstar blowing up, you know, like day And you know,
it really did a wonderful episode called Replay that kind
of takes that sci fi fantasy genre portrait of the
Twilight Zone wraps it around a really sharing social political issue.
So I'm really proud of that. This is a piece
(20:04):
of work. But Washing Black is everything man. Working with
Sterling K. Brown, working with Tom Ellis, working with Charles Dance,
It's all the amazing actors you know on the show.
It was. We can talk about that one all day.
Sterling K.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Brown can do no wrong and everything that he touches
I am such a fan of and he's just a
good guy. Yeah, I would like to talk about Washington Black.
So I am watching the episodes last night in preparation.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
But I am telling you.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
I'm like, oh, I've been going and going, but I
love period pieces, so I thought i'd watch and be exhausted.
I was like, wait a second, this is really wonderful.
I'm giving my own review. But I love period pieces.
I really do. I think that's right up my alley,
Like I could watch that all day, but the silliness
in me and I didn't read the book.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
You could if you will, no problem. Can you tell
everyone what the book is about?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
And they don't ask my, my really really super black question?
I have a super super black group in a ghetto question.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Not a problem, but a problem. The series Watching Black
and the book are generally the same, right. It is
a story of It's a period piece. It's about a
young boy who grows up on a sugar plantation in Barbados.
(21:31):
A tragic event happens, and he is forced to flee
that plantation through some slightly fantastical means, and then essentially
proceeds on a coming of age journey around the world,
during which he becomes a great scientist and an inventor
in his own right. The book tells that story linearly, right,
(21:54):
So the the narrator is our lead character as an
adult looking back on this life. The series takes a
nonlinear approach, so you you're meeting both the young character
and the old character and sort of bouncing back, you know,
in between. And there's tons of other differences in terms
of what the show highlights and explores, but that basic
(22:17):
story idea is the same.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Well, his I don't want to say his mentor, but
and then the first episode, I'm watching his mentor would
you call would you call it the starling characteracter? No?
Speaker 4 (22:27):
No, no, yeah, yeah, yeah is that his?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Is his mentor?
Speaker 4 (22:31):
If you would call him, yeah, he's He's a complicated,
flawed mentor. How far have you gotten?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Because I want to ruin it for okay, you don't
don't know. I literally I had just finished episode two,
like carry, there's more. I need everybody to tune in
because it's so good. But there's this wonder like early
on in the series, the first episode, and he's.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Like George Washington Black.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
He was like interesting, like saying his name, like like
you have a lot to live up to, George Washington Black,
And in my mind, I'm like, oh, so clearly you're black.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
George Washington. That's what like this real black.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
I was just like, was that was that where we're
going in the book? He's a black George Washington. I
don't understand. I was like, why is his name George
Washington black?
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Are you trying to say he black? George Washington? Just
real hood?
Speaker 1 (23:13):
And I was like, that's my simple connection to right away.
And I was like, that's fascinating actually, and that's how
names probably did come about in that day. There's real simple,
there's nothing, nothing tricky to it. But I thought it
was really beautiful and funny at the same time, because
that's my immediate go to.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
It was such a great actor. What is his name?
Speaker 4 (23:32):
His name is Sims Eddie Kranja Eddie. He is a
young actor from the from the UK oh.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
I thought, so, okay, okay, I thought I heard that.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Yeah, just a beautiful soul, you know, And I mean
that was the most important. I mean also adult watch too,
but the kid part of why the show feels the
way it does in terms of its whimsy and it's dreaminess,
it's optimism, it's joy is because it's from a child pov,
you know, and so.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
That's what that is.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
I didn't know why.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
It felt light, but still it was some moments where like, oh,
that's a little too heavy. I have a problem just
me generally, I don't I don't like to see black
people getting hit by white people.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Sure, I do not.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
I know people like I think my last film that
I watched, it was like twelve years I was like,
I can't do that anymore. It just makes me do
it. It just makes me so angry. I can't take it.
It's it's a revolution.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
But it was so light, and I wanted to talk
to you about that, and yeah, so it is that
the approach when you want to tell those stories that
can be difficult, you take it from a child's point
of view and leave out that and leave out.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
The I think that's part of it, you know. I
also think it is possible to tell those kind of
stories emotionally right, meaning that I don't have to see
somebody getting like whipped and beat and all that stuff.
I need it. I need to see it. I can
feel it in the emotion of the characters.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
I don't want to see it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
It's not it doesn't add any thing. Again, this is
my personal other artist. Well, you know, we'll do it.
You know, differently, I think great actors can carry I'm
living in a place that is restrictive to my soul
and I don't want to be here, and they can
get that across, right, you know, And our whole goal
is that first episode.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Can you say that again?
Speaker 4 (25:18):
I am living in a place that is restrictive to
my soul and I don't want to be here.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
In America, I'm like currently as we exist, and I'm
not saying that if I just I'm seeking for myself,
don't know about nobody else.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I'm living the place.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
It's restrictive to my soul right now, I know, right,
I need't.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Mean to do it.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
I was like, oh no, that was a beautiful that
was very hip hops ahead. No, no, And that's you
know the I talk about the show a lot, you know,
I am I'm a st Indian, I'm Caribbean, right, and
I talk about the show so sometimes. And there's something
that my Jamaican friends would say that the show is
(26:05):
a walk from Babylon to Zion, right, meaning from hell
to heaven. And so you get enough of the hell
in episode one, and that many catapults out of there.
It's a journey divorce, joy and finding his agency and
finding finding who he is.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I think, and now it means you should read the book.
Apparently everyone you should read the book.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
This is what it's telling me right now.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
But I really truly felt a lightness. I don't know
what it is about. And I'm curious if you outside
of reading the book, how do you feel about the
And it's not necessarily it's fiction, right, yeah, but it's not.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
Yes, but it's not exactly exactly exactly.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
So how how do you approach something like that?
Speaker 2 (26:53):
And I use it.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I try to think of just life lessons because everything
seems feasible, everything seems within reach. Dreams are for you
know what I mean? And to be chosen and to
be spotlighted like Wash was and being George Washington Black
Calum Wash, to be chosen because there's something special and
set apart. We all have experienced that, and if we haven't, gosh,
I pray, yeah, I hope we all do experience being
(27:17):
set apart and being and know that you're different in
ways that can set you onto different trajectories. How do
you when you're trying to tell that story, because that
was so beautifully cemented in that first episode, and I
was like, I'm.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
All in on that.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
I love that, I'm all in on that we need
some hope, right.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
We absolutely do. I Mean Sterling always says this every
time he talks about the show, because you know how
people will when they hear about it in a broad sense,
you know, and they know that it starts in a plantation,
you know, they'll they'll have the reaction that you have.
And we have been really adamant about telling people like,
I ain't really what we set out to do. You know,
(27:56):
it's a show about finding joy. It's a show about
just won't ruin it for you as you get deeper,
but you'll find out it's a show about finding your wings. Right, Like,
there's a reason that flying is like the central metaphor,
you know, you know to the show. He is building
a machine, you know, his adult self that will take
him into the sky. And you'll see the way that
kind of develops as you go further and further in
(28:18):
the show. But my kind of central idea was we
all got wings. You know, some of us haven't found
the yet, some of us haven't on Furlom and starts
flying yet. But we all have wings of one kind
or another, and I wanted to write a show that
it would inspire you. If this kid could come where
he came out of and figure out a way to
find his wings to fly.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
We all can We all can't. It's great.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
It does have a very beautiful fantasy element to it.
It's so gorgeous. Thus far, I'll get to you. I'll
call you when you finish, give you my thoughts, tell
you where we could do some rewrites. Look at your
people who don't know nothing, like, let me tell you
what I was thinking about an episode for I know.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
I'm sure you deal with that kind of people too.
That's all. It's hilarious, do you.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
And not to? But this brings some reality into it.
I was joking. But you think about the.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Times that we are in right now currently at the administration,
what we see on television. I do believe eight months
into this new presidency, we nine months in. Rather, I
think Americans in general are shocked. Yeah, I think all Americans.
I don't care what color you are, You're just like, wait,
is this really happening in real life? Some people forwards,
you know, I believe a lot of people are not
(29:32):
for it. The climate that we're in. Does it help
or hurt the series?
Speaker 4 (29:37):
I think it helps it, you know, And obviously I'm
not an objective view right now, but I think it
helps it. I think I think in times like this,
it's a couple of things. I think people need hope,
you know, people need, you know, art that provides them
hope and escape. I think people need art that provides
them a sense of inspiration. I think, particularly for our
(29:58):
community and these times, you also need art that shows
you the different phases of resistance, right, because that's also
what the show is about. But it's about joy as resistance, right.
It's about kindness as resistance. It's about having a sense
of purpose as resistance, you know. You know, because wash
(30:20):
Wash gets a lot of incoming, and he'll get more
and more as he goes through this journey, but his
spirit stays unbowed, right, And I think we're living in
a time where you know, we're catching hell spiritually, and
it's the question of how do we stay unbowed Because
you don't want that stuff to corrupt you and change you,
so you end up looking and feeling and be as
(30:41):
you know, spiritually defunct. As quote unquote, they are right.
So it's how do you maintain How do we maintain
a certain kind of grace? How do we maintain a
certain kind of kindness? How do we maintain a certain
kind of purpose while the world's trying to shoot us down?
Speaker 2 (30:54):
How do we do that? I'm asking, are you a
life coach as well?
Speaker 4 (30:57):
I am?
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Because joy is resistance, you know it, rest is resistance.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Being honest is resistance. Like the simple things.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
That bring you the easiest joy that you can find,
or the easiest way to live is so hard to do,
or it feels as if well, you know.
Speaker 4 (31:14):
I think the way I do it, I mean, no surprise,
writers just replicate themselves in their shows is the same
way that Wash does it, and that the show suggests,
which is the role of family, you know, Washing Black,
as much of anything else, is about family, and like
chosen family, right, not just like my bluff. The people
that you choose to surround yourself with, they should provide
(31:40):
you with like respite spiritually, you know, you should all
when it works, You know, we should all be kind
of mutually reinforcing each other because nobody's going to get
through times like like this alone. You know. So I
think family is key, and whether that's your found family
of two or twenty, who knows, right, But the point
(32:00):
and is like, don't isolate, don't go through these times
by yourself.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
I haven't really understood that until obviously this current situation
and you pay attention to the world. I am so
protective over my space. I am Carrie who all going
to be their champion? I am you know what I mean, like,
because it's so necessary. Right now everything is so fragile
(32:24):
and it's not bleak, but it is fragile. So I
do enjoy the idea of a chosen family or your
family and friends and making sure they give you peace
and spiritually. It is so important. I don't think people
even really understand how important it is.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
There is a we were talking about this maybe a
couple of months ago on the podcast and I was
listening to this one clip and it was about the
art of frenemies, people who are actively your friends but
really don't like and you keep them around very healthy.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
It's a real thing.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
And I was like, I I've done that, you know,
because maybe it's the access or perhaps resources or what
you or what you think you liked.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
About them, or maybe you've moved on.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
And I realize that is so unhealthy, but much more
normalized than being around people who make you feel good.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Believe it or not. The show will touch on that
another reason. Yeah, there's you know.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Sometimes I know but by the way, I mean, I
have an idea and I.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Know, I was like, I don't want to ruin it,
but yes, I was like, that's disappointing everybody.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
You're supposed to be there, everybody.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Life is supposed to be there, and that's a disappointment.
That is a disappointment of life.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I love this.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Okay, So okay, with that being said, if you were
to uh tell anyone uh to watch the show, you
can watch it over and over again. It's also one
of those shows that you can watch over and over again.
Please do over and over again just for to feel good.
I can tell that already. But if there is someone
who is saying, you know what I want to do?
Speaker 4 (34:00):
What you do?
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Look how you look at this beautiful career you've created
for yourself. There is no blueprint. I love how people
think you just sit down and you figure it out,
and nine times out of ten you stumble into something great,
and you're like, wait this works. You know you you
moved to Hollywood to pursue Hollywood, So were you an
overnight success?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yeah? Did it happen right away? Says it happens right away?
Speaker 4 (34:28):
Right, yeah? Mixing it always it always looks that way
from the outside, you know, like, oh, this is yesterday,
but obviously it does not. I think, I think I've
I've had a rapid success, but those years of agony
and pain, you know, I mean, look, keeping it completely real.
I mean, I left New York when I'm going to
(34:49):
Hollywood fifteen fourteen years ago, something like that. But you know,
after a very successful career as an editor and a
writer and this and that, and you know, moving to Hollywood,
I'm signed by w Ame, like all the fancy things,
and then you know, two and a half years, I'm
a forty some year old man sleeping on my father's
couch for ten dollars in the bank. Right like it
(35:10):
is the likewash, you got to have the mental commitment
to walk from Babylon to Zion because you are going
to go through Everybody has their own version of the
I had to sleep in my car story, right, Like
the specifics might change but the kind of idea that
the business is going to break you all the way
(35:30):
down before you can get back up to the top
is real, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
So why do you think that is talked about?
Speaker 4 (35:37):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I think success requires an intimate knowledge
of sacrifice. I do, I do. I think. I think.
I think true success, true success that is selfless, right,
because I think there's a way to be successful that's
also like selfish that I think is ephemeral, that that
you know that what does it mean that goes away?
(35:59):
Meaning like you know, you see people who like achieve
whatever the brass ring and it's all about them and
not necessarily like the community that they came from, the
people that empowered them along the way. And maybe it's
karmik maybe because I'm a believer like in karma, I
don't think that kind of success lasts, right because I
(36:19):
think no one ever stays at the top of whatever
your discipline is, like you like, like this happens, and
if you don't have if you haven't been self lessed
at the top, if you haven't brought your family or
you know, your chosen family with you, if you haven't
empowered people on the way, there's nobody to catch you
when this happens, and this will happen like nobody stays
(36:40):
like that. You know you're gonna do that. So I
think the hard times that all of us go through, hopefully,
I'm sure there's no part of everybody on your way
up the top of the ladder is to teach you
that kind of empathy, right, you know, like you should
never forget what it feels like, you know, when you
whatever you're doing fine to be like I remember it
felt like to be like, oh man, I gotta choose
(37:02):
life bill of food, right, you know I got it
beside like am I doing the three piece? Like chicken tenders?
You know what I mean? You should have a ting.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
What life is about, because it makes you appreciate.
Speaker 4 (37:17):
That thanks you appreciated, and I think makes you much
more empathetic towards people who were trying to do what
you wanted. What what you've done?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
You know, so rapid success? What happened? Are you still
with w and noses?
Speaker 4 (37:29):
No? I love my friends, endeavor.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
I'm a ceass the street. Oh that's cool.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
I love, love love my team there. They've been very
very very good to me and you know, just just
trying to be a black man in his business, making
work that matters, and making work there counts, and making
work that looks like us.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I have been told over and over again when I
am everything that I've done is for the culture collectively
women also. But like I'm standing on black and brown
because that's my experience and I know very intimately. But
so if I start a foundation and I call it
(38:21):
Brown Girls Dream, I'm always told do you really want
to call it that? I'm like, yeah, because we all
have a dream and we're brown girls. Well, you know,
as opposed to Carrie Champion foundation. People always name some
chapter themselves. And then there is this conversation that I've
been having and it's popping up all the time, and
my good friends are gently saying this to me, my
chosen family. I don't know if this is the time
(38:43):
to be speaking out. I don't know if you should
be saying what you're saying. And I'm not up there
like fuck the police, I hate whitey. You know, I'm
literally just speaking facts and suggesting that what is wrong
is wrong, and it's clear that it's wrong. And I
had a girlfriend on the podcast shout out to my
(39:05):
friend Aaron Haynes, the new president n ABJ, which is
the National Association.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Of Black.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
And she said, and sometimes I wonder is it worth it?
Because when it's all said and done, if you were
here doing work specifically trying to uplift the culture and
build the culture, do you ever find that that will
prevent you from doing something that is And I don't
even want to use the word mainstream because that would
(39:32):
be century whites.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
But do you think that would prevent you?
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Do you think it has prevented you from doing work
that would be considered mainstream.
Speaker 4 (39:44):
I don't think so at all. And look, you know,
people have different approaches to this. I think mine comes
out of being a hip hop kid, right, So for me,
it's like I take the full essence of who I
am into whatever I do, so you know, you know perfect.
I mean, I'll talk about a couple of other things
(40:05):
I've done because I mean, as you may know, you
can do a lot of stuff in Hollywood that the
public doesn't see, right because it just doesn't get you know, produced.
But I've been lucky enough to do some really cool stuff.
I mean, so not only have I don't watch him
black like I also wrote the first not the first,
but I also wrote like a big, huge, like Joker
movie that never got made. Right. So, like after Jared
(40:25):
Leto did this whole suit squad thoughts, you know, squad
thing he was, you know, he's going to do the
Joker solo film, you know up at DC. So I wrote,
I wrote that movie, and you know it's a big,
splashy com book film. But I think there's something about
the way I wrote the central characters that that was
very hip hop, you know what I mean, That was
(40:46):
very like reflective of who I am as an artistan
and a writer. You know. Obviously, quick cut that movie
did not come out because they also made this other
Joker movie that made ten billion dollars, and that happens
in Hollywood, you know, all the time. But it's more
alterative the fact that, like my career hasn't constrained me
to like, well, you just got to sit in this
corner and do this, you know what I mean. It's like, no,
(41:08):
I do everything, I just do it from the pov
of you know, a Caribbean kid who moved to Brooklyn
as a teenager and grew up in Flatbush and you
know worked, you know what I mean? Like like the
full totality of who I am. So, you know, hopefully
I continue to do that. And I would encourage, you know,
other writers and whatever you're disciplined, other artists, you know,
(41:28):
to sort of think that way. Don't feel don't feel limited,
but by who you are, bring who you are to everything.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
That is a bold thing to do in today's America,
when everyone is.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
Looking for followers, you're trying to reduce themselves and.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Reduce themselves to to fit into what they think works.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Where does that come from?
Speaker 4 (41:48):
Yeah, well, you know, you know, the the governing. I
think emotion POV on a mass level is fair, right,
and I think it's justifiable, right. I mean, and it's
you go back to high school with that, right, Like
we're afraid, so we conform and we want to fit in.
We don't want to like stand out, we don't want
to get bullied like that. That's an essential sort of
(42:11):
human state. But I also think things like bravery and
standing up for oneself and standing up for one's family
and standing up for one's community are also an essential
part of the human condition as well. And I think
our survival as people as a community in these times
are going to require everybody for themselves negotiating that balance
(42:35):
between those two things.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Okay, that to end in So those things are just
you say it so eloquently.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
It just requires and you just do it and then
it should be fine and we'll do it tomorrow. You
be yourself, tomorrow, be great, tomorrow, Okay, good. I don't
need you to come with all this wisdom with that
I do. I'm kidding, but you know my point being
is that is just so effortlessless.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
And I just think that really just requires us sense
of self.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
I'm like, yeah, are you selling that?
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Is that the next show.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
How to where the book be a good idea? Just
really just double down on that, double down in an
authentic way, like I think I think everyone goes about, yeah,
I'm myself, and myself with the authenticity of it is
clearly lacking.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
And the confidence.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
So what you speak from is experience and from a
level of confidence that you have from your experiences.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
For those who don't have that, how does that work?
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Because confidence is I mean, I enjoy mine, but it
can it can work against you as well.
Speaker 4 (43:34):
Sure, sure, and it's not you know, and to be fair,
it's not the easiest thing in the world to, you know,
to build. I don't want to make it sound like
it's just so you like you drink a magic juice
and you're all this, but to go back something that
we're tiring about before. I also think this is why
family is so important, you know what I mean, because
(43:55):
strength multiplies, you know, bravery multiplies. You know, like we
all feel, including me, you know, afraid and unsure and
anxious on our own, you know, isolated, like who's that
friend you can call, Who's that family member that who
makes you feel stronger and better and more confident about
(44:17):
your place in the world. So maybe I guess what
we're coming to is beyond all the kind of high
falutine like thematic and intellectual stuff like the key thing
for this moment, you know, talking about where we are
in the country really does go back to nurturing. Who
are you? Who do you surround yourself with? That's right,
you know, who gives you what you need to get
(44:39):
to get to the days? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, if you look around and you got to see
if it's right or wrong. And also I got to
be honest with you. I know, the idea of hanging
around the cool kids is it? But I have never
been able.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
To do that.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
I just like so I like my own company.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
I think it's the only child in me.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Oh yeah, well, let me be clear because I have
brothers and sisters, Papo, I love them.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
I love you all. If you're watching it before I
let you go.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Any projects that you're working on that we should know
about up and coming or you can't talk about it,
or is there something that you want us to do
as a community to make sure that we are watching
Washington Black.
Speaker 4 (45:18):
Yeah, no, thank you for that. Well, let's start with
one first. Thank you guys here, and thank you to
everybody who has already watched Washington Black, because it's it's
done really well, really well, and I hope people, as
you said, watch it again and again and again. I
think there's lessons and layers in there. So I'm really
excited about that. I can't talk about a couple of
(45:40):
new things. Sterling and I just sold a new show
to Netflix.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
Oh congratulation, change, change, give me two dollars.
Speaker 4 (45:50):
So all super excited to continue our our creative relationship.
It's a show called The Trees. I'm just producing this
for not writing it. It'll be written by an amazing
writer named Marcus Gardley. It'll be on Netflix. It's adapted
from a book by Percival Everett, who is one of
our treasures of writing in this country. So super excited
(46:12):
about that. And then right behind that, I've been developing
a one hour drama with Usher that is inspired by
his Confession's album. So I will leave that for your imagine.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
Is he starting it, is he cheating?
Speaker 4 (46:29):
He is producing it? And if you have listened to
the record, which I know you have over and over,
you can imagine it's not little. It's a fictionalized inspiration
from the album, and it goes.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Young Carey is ready, she ready for the tt okay,
Young Cary. You remember his confession really meant a lot
to me.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
It changed my life. He educated us. I appreciated that truth.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
Well, I'll have to come back with him.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
Yeah, I love that. I'm so happy for you.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
You really deserve I'm so happy. Let me let me
just say this shout out to Jock Quee, producer. She
was like, she was like, I really would like she's
been pressing this and she was like she knew it.
Young director in the making, still directing producer, extravagant does
all the things she's a creative spirit as well. So
thank you for bringing him to my world.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
It has been such a pleasure to meet you, Selwyn amazing.
Thank you for being here so much.
Speaker 4 (47:21):
Have a great bag, you.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Too, Washington Black. Seriously, you guys have to watch it.
Know who will support this man?
Speaker 1 (47:28):
At least turn it on, at least right let him
get some streams because y'all know what we need all
the help we can get. And I also I also
am very very proud of him for saying.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
I can do work for the culture.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
I can always bring my POV to every scene, every
single thing that I do, and it doesn't limit me.
It doesn't mean that if I'm only doing a movie
about a young black slave who turns into this great scientist,
I can't write a movie about the Joker. We can
do all these things. We are not a monolith. We
can live in so many different worlds. And I think
it is his confidence that encouraged me today to still
(48:04):
be you, the authentic you, and I hope that you
were able to take that away. He felt very authentic,
felt very in touch with what his purpose is. That's
arguably the bigger point, Like what is your goal? What
do you want to do? What does that look like?
Figure all that out, but find out a way to
do it authentically. And all of these messages, I can
feel myself saying, Oh, I need that. I needed to
(48:25):
hear that. I needed to hear that. So today's podcast
for me very restoring. I hope you enjoyed it. We
have how many more episodes left, Jack Quiz?
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Four? Three?
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Three more episodes left before we push on to a
season five?
Speaker 2 (48:40):
Three? Can you imagine we season five years? Jack Quiz?
Speaker 3 (48:45):
Can you still like me after five years?
Speaker 2 (48:46):
That's wild? We go together, that's wild. She loves me? Ah,
that's even more wild. Thank you all for listening. We
appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Shout out to Dwayne. We ain't seen Dwayne in it forever.
We're gonna get him back maybe hopefully.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
We love you too.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Duane, thanks for listening and celebrating five years of the
Black Effect podcast network.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
We really appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Keep following and sharing and streaming and telling everyone about
what we're doing over here, especially for my show Naked Sports,
because the next five they're about to be even better.
Follow us on all the socials Black Effect. Join the conversation.
With us at hashtag black Effect turns five and keep
supporting its most important keep supporting the voices and shifting
the culture. Naked Sports written and executive produced by me
(49:34):
Carrie Champion, produced by Joacquise Thomas, sound designed and mastered
by Dwayne Crawford. Naked Sports is a part of the
Black Effect podcast
Speaker 2 (49:42):
Network in iHeartMedia
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.