May 5, 2025 • 53 mins
Devi Brown — a true force in the wellness space — joins Naked Sports to talk about what it means to take care of yourself in a world that never seems to slow down.
We get into her journey, how she found her way to healing, what it means to be a calming presence in chaotic times, and how every chapter of life, even the messy ones, shapes us into who we’re becoming.
Focusing on self-care, growth, and showing yourself grace — because in today’s world of go-go-go, being still might be the most powerful move you can make.
We also learn about Devi’s new book, Living Wisdom, and her reasoning and process for bringing it to life.
Connect @CariChampion @DeviBrown
Learn More: DeviBrown.com
Subscribe Cari Champion's YOUTUBE Channel
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
So I've been working in wellness and well being for
about a decade now, I've been studying it for probably
two decades, and a lot of what I came to
understand when it came time for me to teach or
share this work specifically like meditation nervous system regulation, I
noticed how many people reject it. So part of my
(00:26):
process on learning how to be a great teacher of
these phenomenal life changing tools and modalities was to kind of.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Reverse engineer understanding pain and.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
To really approach it, not by saying, Okay, here's what
you need, here is what you need, but kind of
approach it by being really curious about why don't you
want this? Right, Like, why don't you want good things?
Why don't you want to meet your needs? Why don't
you want to approach looking closer at some of the
harder things, And through taking that approach, it taught me
(01:03):
so much about the ways that we can hide ourselves
from ourselves. And so my biggest intention with this book,
you know, and I got to tell you, like, I
really did kind of struggle with There's so much I
left out of the book because it started to feel
too depressing, and so many miracles too.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
It's like life is bold. It's the duality of both.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
But I've wanted people to understand this work from multiple,
multiple lenses.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Welcome to Naked Sports, the podcast where we live at
the intersection of sports, politics, and culture. Our purpose reveal
the common threads that bind them all. So what's happening
in women's basketball right now is what we've been trying
to get to for almost thirty years. From the stadiums
where athletes break barriers and set records, Kayman Clark broke
(01:55):
the all time single game assists record.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
This is crazy for rookies to be doing.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Our discussions will uncover the vital connections between these realms
and the community we create. In each episode, we'll sit
down with athletes, political analysts, and culture critics, because at
the core of it all, how we see one issue
shines the light on all others. Welcome to the Naked Sports.
I'm your host, Carrie Champion. Hey, everybody, welcome to another
(02:29):
edition of Naked Sports. Carrie Champion here, So I am
in studio. I never do this. This is really interesting.
I normally try to record the podcast during the day,
but our guests today it felt special. It felt like
it should have a nighttime vibe in the city because
we were in New York City recording, but a few
little housekeeping tools. So remember I told everybody we had
(02:50):
the Black Effect Podcast Festival. I really appreciate everybody for
coming out and really giving everybody all the support that
they needed. It was a real beautiful event. So again,
thank you guys for coming out and supporting us. We're
in season four of Naked. I can't believe it. It
just it flew literally right past us. With that being said,
(03:11):
I wanted to give you a little background about our
next guest. I often tell people I'm just like, whatever
city you're from, you're probably proud you're from that city.
I am proud. I like to say I'm from La
Like whatever that means, whatever that is, is what it means.
And if you know, you know, it's one of those
(03:31):
moments like if you're from New York from my Midwest people,
if you're from Chicago, Detroit, there's a certain special representation
that you feel very very proud of to say that's
your city. And so my next guest is from my city.
And the moment that I met her and I knew
of her, but the moment that I met her, I
felt like, Oh, there was this synergy, this vibe. But
(03:54):
she's so low key. She never talks about who she
is or what this world has gets give her. It
is really truly about the experience. And during this time
where our country is uncertain and we are not sure
what will happen, and I know there's a lot of
uncertainty out there and people just don't want to deal
with it, don't want to watch the news. I think
it's really important to have a calm, centering voice in
(04:18):
your life. And she came into my life right on time,
literally right on time. I'm talking about Debbie Brown. Debbie
Brown is a wellness expert. She has a podcast on
this network. She has worked with the Deepak Chopra. She
has been featured in every wellness magazine there could be.
(04:40):
But she had a whole life before that, and that
is where we will begin today's podcast. I'm really curious
how your life started off in radio, essentially doing what
I'm doing right now in a different way. How'd you
get there? Okay, years we both grew up in LA
(05:02):
Where were you What radio stations did you listen to? You?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Oh my god?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Growing up My favorite station was ninety two point three
The Beat My TiO Gone.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
THEO did ninety with the voice Yes, that deep deep boy.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
And then when I found out that he was Filipino it,
I was like, wait, hold on, you mean to tell.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Me the THEO was that guy? The actually gave me
my first job on the radio many years later. It
was very full circle.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Crazy, but I love ninety two point three. Are you
to listening to Theo? Naica de la Cruz PJ Butter
Like it was like La had such a hybrid radio scene,
like it really did. Like every all the artists that
would come to town. You'd hear like Biggie doing drops Park.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
I was like, oh, I want to do the radio.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
It's gone.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
It is not gone, but it has changed form and
it doesn't feel as localized anymore. It don't felt like
there was that special energy when you're not trying to
create something necessarily for everybody, like when you have a
little more culture on it. And I feel like that's
what LA was at the time, because you remember it
used to be about like, you know, what was the thing?
(06:13):
Oh my god, ninety two point three they have this
saying it was like, No, it was it was seen
no well, no color lines, no color lines because they
were really in the community. They had worn in their
nineties when there was a lot of like gang violence, and.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
So yeah, it just it was such a special time
and that's what we grew up listening to.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
And so that well, in a way, can I be
honest with you, that may have inspired me, I be
to your point, everything felt localized. I didn't really I
didn't think about it as radio. I thought about it
as TV. But all of it played its part because
we listened to certain people. Did you ever call.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Into the radio, oh my god all the time?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Did you ever get through?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yes, Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
What would you do when you get through?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
I remember there.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
You'd be like, yeah, well the tickets what?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, I'd like where the tickets at?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
And then I remember one time me and my girlfriends
and we were total squares, like we were just you know,
like he he watching like you know, like probably tj
IF on a Friday night. But we used to call
in and there was this other really great radio personality
with an incredible voice, and I remember his name was admu.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yes, do you remember it? Oh my god?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Still to this day, have no idea what he looks like,
but I remember that voice. Yeah, And I remember one
time we called up to the station we were we were.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
So young, and we were like, hey, Demo.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
And you know, we were like thinking, we were flirting
with him. We were trying to get tickets on you know,
we're on the party line.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And I remember he was like, I think it's time
for y'all to go to bed girls.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
By Demo.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Where are your goods?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
See you soon? What is THEO?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I know, I don't. I have no idea he was.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
I saw at a club once and I kept walking
around him just to try to get his attention, and
he was like, I'm too famous. And by the way,
it was the club I was supposed to be in.
But that's not the point, damn ougi.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I want to see a little Younghucci in the club.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Okay, I digress. You grow up listening to that and then.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, you know, when I was so when I was younger,
I was influenced by a lot of specific things. One
was like PBS and kc ET, so I did have
cable growing up, so that's all I could really watch.
And I was always like inspired honestly by mister Rogers
by LeVar Burton By by the blend of education and
exposure for young minds like it. It gripped me and
(08:39):
it really kind of taught me how to learn. And
so anytime I've touched anything to this day, no matter
what I'm doing, even if it was my former life
like interviewing rappers, whatever, I was always thinking of it
through that lens, like how do we add like some education,
some exposure to whatever it is that we're talking about.
So that was a big influence for me. LA radio
was a massive influence for me. But then I also
(09:01):
wanted to be a child psychologist and I wanted to
be an anchor woman. So it was kind of like
all of those things at once were always kind of
swirling around me. And then when I got into college,
I had kind of really started emerging in the underground
hip hop scene, Like the blogs hadn't come out yet,
there wasn't that culture, like you still had to get
(09:22):
a physical mixtape. And I started doing like some internet
radio before that was a thing. And then I went
and got an internship at the radio station. I got
an extra internship at like one of the label's universal innerscope,
and I was just grinding it out and working my
way up. But my first, very first gig on the
radio was THEO had stopped. No, he hadn't stopp being
(09:45):
on air, but he had become a program director. And
I was kind of wallowing away at the station, filling
every position, and he was like, I really like your voice.
I want you to do the gossip for my show.
And so we had this like late night gossip segment
called Dirt with Debbie. But it was at a time
before there was gossip that was readily available because there
weren't blogs and there was no Instagram. Yeah, so you
(10:09):
would have to find your gossip once a month when
a when a magazine came out. Yeah, and so yeah,
it was a hard It was a hard thing for
me to do.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I never had enough tea.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Imagine a world, imagine a world with not enough TA.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Couldn't you imagine? I'm like, was there ever a world? Truly?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I know? That's like crazy, I know.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
And then after that I kind of worked my way
up and I ended up doing the news and the
weather and traffic report for the Steaming Show.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
As you're explaining this, I see I see little Debbie,
and I see baby, I see little David Debbie building
and building and building and building, and then there's just
a whole nother world for you after the bill, right, Yeah,
So when did you? Did you ever and during? Because
radio is a different beast now it's not gone to
your point, but it is definitely a different beast.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
But when you when you were, you know, coming up,
who did you see yourself as? Who did you look
up to? Because there are people who you probably admire
that had been there a little bit before you. Or
were you truly just the only one?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:12):
I mean definitely not the only one, right, because I
think something I've come to know is like just how
many women were out there getting it while I was
getting it that I necessarily didn't see or know. Okay,
but I do feel like at that time I didn't
really have anyone I was modeling myself after there weren't
a ton of women on the radio, And then the
(11:32):
few times you'd hear women, it would usually be in
like morning show kind of companion mode, right, so it
would be a lot more focused on ya seeing on
you know, given the gossip on you know, just kind
of like really holding up the male personality. And so
I didn't know, I didn't even think I wanted to
(11:53):
be on air, to be honest, like I wanted to
just help make things happen. And I had really kind
of I had been coming up in the underground hip
hop world of LA, So it was really for me
at that time about getting like certain artists to be
able to get opportunity to get some recognition. And then
I got like my first four am shift, and I
was like, what do I say?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
What am I supposed to? What do I do? I
don't have anything to say.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
I appreciate you humblely being like just kind of getting
some LA artists up and going and kind of just
helping them because there is you don't even know where
I'm going right this. There's just so much humility and
what you've been able to do in this scene and
who people are and you and you say it so casually,
and I know the kids say, humble Bragg, would you
really do have that? Like yeah, No, I grew up
(12:37):
with No. I knew Kendrick, And then there was like
there are people who really are changing the game that
you were friends with and help them and introduce them,
you've and you've watched them grow. How does that make
you feel now looking back on it so inspired. Did
you even know that you were in that type of company?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Absolutely, Oh wow, oh my god, absolutely, yeah, you know,
and I Kendrick was Kendrick hundred thousand percent, Yeah, both
of them. I was really blessed to start in radio
at the same time that just some phenomenal talent like
was coming out of LA and.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Two of the biggest youngest people at.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
That time coming out when I'm like climbing, were you know,
Kendrick Lamar and Nipsey Hustle And yeah, I mean but honestly,
if you really got to look at them when they started,
it was hard not to know, you know, like there
is an anointing as something different, right, Like it gives
a different glow.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
It's not just talent, it's not just music.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
And I remember, you know, watching early Kendrick and like
one of the first times he ever did like a
pop up and this is before the rest of the
country knew him. This was like on the Kendrick Lamar
EP which.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Was early, early, early, early early.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
And I remember going to this like little signing he
did at a record store and like women and children
were crying, but like the rest of the country hadn't
heard of him yet, like deeply emotionally moved by his
work and his presence and wow, like was barely getting started.
And so I think when it comes to someone like him.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
It's just.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
You don't need to be discovered, you it's divine plan
that your work touches the world.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So I think when I look at the fact that
I was able to kind of glimpse and see, you know,
minds like that, heart's like that talent like that so early, early,
young in their career, Like it's just a privilege.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
I wonder for you to say you knew right away.
Now we think about Nipsey, may he rest in peace,
and you think about Kendrick, how beautifully talented they are,
and I'll use current as in, yes they are. It is.
It is what it is. But do you do you
ever think about just being a part of LA culture
(15:01):
for me? And someone kind of tried to, you know,
push back on this at one point, and I was like, no,
I think you know, the LA West Coast rap definitely,
we have our Mount Rushmore and of that started it.
But then you have a whole new world with Nipsey
and Kendrick Yeah, and they picked up this mantle that
(15:22):
was already considered to me golden in so many ways,
and they took it to a much more higher level
of consciousness. Yeah, that was just so to me surreal
to your point, Anointed, and I don't you can't, you
can't quite describe what they were sent here to do
for whatever period of time, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah, Yeah, La is something special, you know. And I
say that as us La native, so not trying to
take away from anyone else that's seen. Every area has,
you know, the things that they do, you know, really incredibly,
but to come from LA is just really something else.
Like the kind of creativity, the kind of adversity, the
(16:05):
kind of opportunity that exists in La. It just creates
this like bubble of synchronicity and genius. And I think
at that time right like we're thinking and kind of
so our brother Charlemagne.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
So I'm so grateful for this.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
I'm so grateful he did the forwards to my book
and one of the things that he shares in the
book is like his first time touching down in La
and like me taking him to meet like Nip and Kendrick, and.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I remember I had. I had told him.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
I was like, wait right here, I have to get
you music, and I thought I'd be able to like
get home and back quickly. It ended up taking me
like an hour and a half in LA traffic. But
I brought back like literally like five pounds worth of
mixtape of every LA artist that was like making noise
at the time, and I was like, listen to all
of these when you get back to New York, you know.
(16:56):
And I think it's like the talent was just surreal,
and I hope someone makes it a documentary about it
one day, like this moment between like two thousand and
five and twenty ten before music completely changed. But there,
you know, when there's a lot of names that maybe
people around the world won't hear of, but they were
phenomenal talents. LA had something so special. There was a
(17:18):
scene for everything. There was like the new version against
a rap. There was more melodic rap. There was you know,
more you know what you'd call then, like backpacker rap,
conscious rap. Like there was such a lane for so
many different landscapes of Los Angeles.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
I get I feel sorry for people, and I know
we're having our LA moment, but I didn't think about
just like remember back in the day and not not
that we could really enjoy it and enjoy it. I
enjoyed it a little, but like Crenshaw and Sundays and
the car clubs, yes, oh my god, like you're just
like it's there's no way to describe it. Boys and
(17:54):
a Hood did a great job right right at at
the end of the day, there's no way to describe
something that is so special. And listening to you talk
about the city, I wonder, did you ever see a life,
especially during that time when you're literally taking Charlotte made
so you can hear new music from Nipsey and Kendrick,
did you ever see a life where you would leave
radio at that time.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I'll tell you this, I don't wrap my identity around anything.
So like I did radio, and I loved radio and
eventually did it in a couple other states.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
But I wasn't like I am radio. I'm radio forever.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
You know. It's like, this is the way my purpose
is expressing itself right now. But I've always had a
lot of interest, and I think for me it's always
about what is like.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
What makes me feel like I'm.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Being useful to the world, like what makes me feel
like I'm using the best parts of me my brain,
my heart, whatever skills. I'm amassed, right, And so for me,
I'm a very and we're both geminis. I can be
a very restless person and I can be a very
non middle person.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
I feel attacked. I feel attacked. I feel attacked.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
But we're also like loyal to the soil, like we
are there, sheep, We're so loyal and we are. But
you know, there is this piece of us that just
always wants to learn, like always wants to have a
little bit more of something or more understanding. And I
think you know, when it came to.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Radio, I loved it.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
I felt like I was good at it, but I
also felt really limited by it from the start because
I have so many interests and working specifically in hip
hop radio, I can't bring those interests to work.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I got to talk about one thing all the time.
So yeah, I feel like I was always ready to
do whatever.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
You have been. You were on your path, your spiritual path,
when you when you were drawn to when Nipsey and
Kendrick were drawn to you, You've always been you know
what I mean, Like that wasn't an accident that you
all had met during that time, and our brother Charlemagne.
And if that's an accident, you were always on the path.
You just look back and see You're like, oh, okay
(20:05):
from where I'm supposed to be yea, because it feels
that way. Yeah, for me knowing you, it feels that
way from this story as you share it. We're gonna
take a quick break because we have to pay some bills.
We'll be right back in just a few moments. I
(20:26):
am restless. I will share this with you with Debbie.
Anyone who knows Debbie, if you're listening and or watching,
she won't be your friend if she don't get your
birth chart. She can't get your birth chart. My girl
needs your birth chart before she sit down, you have water, tea,
a sniff, a cry, a drop.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Definitely before I go on a date. I gotta see that.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
What time was you born? In? What hospital?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I know? No? And I'm not even like shy about
it anymore. I'm like, uh huh, okay, yeah, what time?
I'm trying to So, did you ask your mom? No?
Is she around?
Speaker 1 (21:04):
If you're like I don't know, If they're like, who
can you ask? Can you send a text right now,
I got a note.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
This is such a private joke. I'm sorry, I know.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I definitely like when I remember when we first met
on the beach.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
We met on the beach in Florida. She's like, now,
what time were you born? Okay, oh Jim and oh joh.
In like five seconds, you just told me. I was like, correct,
well and we became friends. Have you ever someone give
you their birch chart and you're like, well, I can't
talk to you anymore.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Sorry, Absolutely, that's why, Alice, Oh, for sure in real time. Absolutely,
Oh my god, absolutely, Okay, I think, yeah, listen for
any other astrology lovers out there, or if you're not,
but you're curious right now, I highly recommend the pattern app,
Time Passages, co Star. Those are great apps to learn
about your astrology. But yeah, like I don't have a
(21:59):
lot of time, so fundamental compatibility with friends, with love,
with work with anything, Like anybody that works for me
got to come up off that birth chart too, Like
I need to know what those deeper layers, you know,
things are.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I just got real uncomfortable. Thanks came over my body.
I'm all like, should trying to get a job and
You're like, what time were you born? You're like, tat
five on a Wednesday. If that's cold?
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I know, but it's it can it can't? It can't
tell you so much.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
I I and as we talk about this transition, as
I was asking how did you know? And I felt
like just listening to you tell the story, even of
those two particular artists, your journey Charlemagne, You've always been
on the path. It may have been the platform, may
have been radio at one point, but now you have
really been able to and I don't want to even
(22:53):
say pivot, but you've been Now you've been able to
show your other curious everything else that is that you are,
other things that you want to learn about. In Living
in Wisdom, you give us a lot of out today
April twenty second, buy it a SAP, help my girl
time out everywhere, Audible, listen to it, download, go and
(23:16):
do it. That was a wrap. Could I be a rapper? No? Yeah? No?
By the book is the point. But in Living in Wisdom,
I just think, gosh, how does she do this all
so well? But you share very specific moments that were crushing,
soul crushing, painful physically mentally. Yeah, And each one of
(23:37):
these could be considered pain and or grief. You were
able to turn into magic, the beautiful alchemy of something
that seems painful turning into magic, being a blessing, being better.
Why did you just decide to share your story in
this particular book? Hm?
Speaker 1 (23:56):
So, I've been working in wellness and well being for
about a decade now. I've been studying it for probably
two decades, and a lot of what I came to
understand when it came time for me to teach or
share this work specifically like meditation nervous system regulation, I
noticed how many people reject it.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
So part of my process on learning how to.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Be a great teacher of these phenomenal life changing tools
and modalities was to kind of reverse engineer understanding pain
and to really approach it, not by saying, Okay, here's
what you need, here is what you need, but kind
of approach it by being really curious about why.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Don't you want this?
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Right?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Like why don't you want good things? Why don't you
want to meet your needs? Why don't you want to
approach looking closer at some of the harder things, And
through taking that approach, it taught me so much about
the ways that we can hide ourselves from ourselves, and
so intention with this book, you know, and I got
(25:03):
to tell you, like, I really did kind of struggle
with There's so much I left out of the book
because it started to feel too depressing, and so many
miracles too. It's like life is both, it's the duality
of both. But I wanted people to understand this work
from multiple, multiple lenses, multiple facets, right, And so I
(25:24):
felt that it was really important that people hear stories
from a place of wisdom, not from a place of
centering self or a place of embitterment or a place
of you know, this is what I went through. That's
not how I present it. I share some of the
griefs I felt in a way to explain the processes
(25:46):
of grief and also the miraculous nature that is always available.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
To you when you choose to spend time.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
With your grief.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
You Know, something I was saying to someone recently, and
I'm like, I know this sounds so odd, but I
get so excited to teach grief. I get so excited
to teach and understand pain because it's not something everyone
can do. It's hard to be with those things, but
it's something everyone feels. And I think that I'm really
(26:19):
passionate about what it is to be alive on earth
and a human being. And I think that, you know,
the way emotion is designed, the way that God designed
our human experience. No emotion is more holy, is more important,
is more necessary than any other emotion. We're meant to
kind of be with whatever is true and whatever is present.
(26:42):
So that means grief, that means joy, that means happiness,
that means sadness, that means jealousy, and that means anger,
that means anxiousness, that means all of the full spectrum
of what it is to emote as a human being.
And I think it fascinates me. It fascinates me, And
so yeah, yeah, I think when it came to like
(27:02):
sharing some of my stories, you know it, all of
life hasn't been pretty for me, but it hasn't been
pretty for everybody. A lot of people go through really
hard things and not just one thing, right, Like we're
used to hearing and learning about trauma through the lens
of like, you know, one thing happened to you or
or you know, you had an accident, or you had
(27:24):
this you know, this big harm happen, and that was it.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
That was it. So that's all you got to work through.
How realistic is that for most of us, most of us.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Have had tens and twenties and hundreds of things big
and small happen, compound it continuously, And so those are
usually the reasons why.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
It's harder for me, for you, for us, for they,
for everyone to.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Find this elusive peace, that wellness always telts right. And
so when I teach them, like, it's not that you're
in search of peace in this pristine way.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Of like, ah, you know, that'll come. That can come.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
It takes a lot of time and a lot of work.
But this work is about how do you alleviate some
of your daily suffering, how do you alleviate some of
the internal struggle only you know about, so that your
life actually feels good inside in the same way you
want people to believe it is on the outside.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
It reads first of all, that was so beautiful, And
I just went through a bevy of emotions. I emoated
the entire time because I want you to know the
feeling of especially right now where we are in today's age.
And I can say over the last four or five years,
maybe just the uncertainty, the anxiety that comes with living
in America. There are all of these issues that pop up.
(28:45):
And as soon as I feel something, I want to medicate.
I want it to go away. I don't want to
see the pain. Yeah, this one therapist tell me you
got to sit with that because pretty soon. It doesn't
take forever. It doesn't take forever, as you talk about
in the book. Doesn't take forever. You said one part,
it could be it could start six weeks, six mouths,
thirty days, three seconds, three minutes. You gave some kind
(29:06):
of amount of time. But it goes and it comes
and you get better at it. But I'm really really
curious about a section that you wrote in the book Mastery.
You talk about mastering who you are. Like, to me,
that is the hardest thing. How did you feel okay
(29:27):
with letting everything break and then just leaving it there?
Is that mastering?
Speaker 2 (29:31):
My god?
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, So when something in us kind of falls apart
and we're hurriedly looking to place the pieces back together
or gluten them back together, right, it's really to replicate
some semblance of control. It's really to think, no, no, no,
I'm fine, I'm fine.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
See everything is back together in its place.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
I'm okay, right, And that is actually not the attended path.
Like there's no learning there, there's no growth there, there's
no freedom there. So what I found for myself and
what I hope other people will find, is like, sometimes
you are really brought to your knees by life. There
is no making sense of it. There is no way
to rationalize it, There is no way to you know,
(30:13):
kind of talk yourself out of the pain, the humiliation,
the disappointment, the hurt. And so something I realized in
one of my darkest moments is like I spent my
whole life trying to glue myself back together after every hit.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
What if I didn't do that? What would happen?
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Must I look like?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
What that felt like to me was just shattering and
letting the pieces fall and now experiencing what is it
to be uncontained? Right?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
What if it is if I'm not packed into this tight,
little neat vessel.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
What happens if I just kind of fill the space?
Speaker 3 (30:49):
That feels scary?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, and it is at first, like it does feel scary.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
That sounds scary.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
It's scary because it's unknown, but it's not scary because
anything is wrong. And I think that's what's really important
as we do whatever kind of healing work we're called
to do on ourselves, whatever self actualization. It's like you
have to learn through pain until you realize you don't.
You know, like there is this way you can begin
(31:16):
to be in a relationship with yourself where I believe
you can really work with God, work with the energy
of the universe of humanity to say, like, you know,
I can get that lesson through observation. Show me you
know I can get that observation through like you know,
a twinkling moment.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
I can get it through a breakthrough thought.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I don't always have to wait to get the punch
in the face, to get the shatter, to get the
devastating blow.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
And I think it's important to know that we do
hold that power.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
But if we don't feel our emotions, if we don't
process ourselves, we don't get that option. The only way
to get that option is to choose to feel. And
much like your therapist said, which is just such a
powerful truth. It's like it doesn't take as long as
you think, right, we run from that thing that we
don't want to think about everybody has that thing. Some
(32:12):
people have a lot of time those ruminating thoughts, those
things that no matter.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Where you are.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
You could be at your kids game, at your office,
at a concert, you could be alone in your own
bed thinking about that. It's flashing up and there's no
stone left unturned. There's no reason to keep cycling it forward. Right,
But that happens because it wants to be brought to
your review so it can be accepted and released. And
I think we feel like to accept some of the
(32:38):
harder stories means weakness.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
You living is proof of strength. You living is proof of.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Your adaptability and your ability to be resilient. And to
create the acceptance is just admitting that it happened because
it's true. Not that you liked it, not that it
broke you, not that it was okay, not that that
person should be forgiven, none of it. It's just saying
that it actually did happen. When you see that, when
(33:05):
you look at that, you then get for yourself the
opportunity to change the way that charge feels in your
body when the memory comes back up, and so you'll
find that instead of spending years trying to run from
thinking about it. But it's still like eating a hole
in your brain and your heart every day and the
gut of your stomach every day.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Instead of it being.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Like that, you look at it, you probably have a
few really good cries, right, But.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
What is wrong with crying?
Speaker 1 (33:35):
It's a biological response, feels good, it's a release. It's
your body being able to have a response and release
something that is storing and feeling inside. You'll have a
few good cries and then you'll notice I don't need
a cry as hard anymore. Then you'll notice I'm not
actually crying. I'm curious about this pain.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Now.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Then you'll notice, how is this actually useful to me?
And how can I develop even more esteem and self
respect for myself because I know what it takes to
be me. And then that's where power comes and that's
where purpose gets to emerge.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
But it's all a.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Process, just like you know for those that have babies.
When you have a baby, the doctors always like hit
these developmental milestones. You know, they got to do this
before they flip over. Then they got to flip over
before they can crawl. Then they got to crawl before
they can walk. Right, everything feeds upon itself. It's evolutionary,
but all those steps have to happen at a certain
point for the next step to take place. That is
(34:34):
the same way with our emotional, with our mental, with
our spiritual, with our physical healing, with all healing. You
have to get your reps in, you have to get
your practice in, you have to bear witness to it,
and you have to go step by step developmentally, and
every step of acceptance of process takes you to the
next till eventually it really is this wisdom that resides
(34:56):
in you and not this like crushing weight that holds
you back.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Ladies and gentlemen. That is living in wisdom in a nutshell.
That is a Ted Talk straight from Debbie Brown.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
I'll be giving my Ted talk. Friend, We're not even
wrapping the podcast.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
I was like, that's living in Okay, one more and
then another stuff and another step. Easier said than done.
Because you and I have talked about this, I would
like and this is and honestly I feel like your
book really it's gonna save souls. You know that because
when you share your story and you were candid and
you show that you can break and you can be
built back again and even better if you will people
(35:33):
are going to be like, oh okay, this exists. Her
life isn't as perfect as I think it is.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Oh god, no, how.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
How uncomfortable I am you You mentioned we're geminized. We
could gemini all day, all through this entire podcast, but
we don't like to share our business.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Oh girl, she just roll her eyes talk to me.
I asked myself every day, why did you write this?
Speaker 3 (36:00):
How did you do it? How did you do it?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Why not? I'm not ashamed of anything in my life.
I'm not ashamed I have it.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
When did you arrive? There? Not necessarily be ashamed aspect,
but why not? Why not tell everything? It doesn't mean? Yeah,
all we can do is help, not harm? When did
you arrive? At that point?
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I think that that maybe something that is always up
a review, right, depending on what it is that we're
working with. But what I will say is that every
story I shared in this book is something that I've
made peace with, and so it's not anything in that
book does not actively trigger me. It's something that is
many years behind me, and it's also something that even
(36:41):
if I didn't share the full circleness of it in
the book, has come back.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
To me full circle.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
There has been some kind of restoration, there has been
some kind of healing, there has been a wisdom like
none of it is like outstanding, right, there's no warrants
out for this.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
I'm just like I love it.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
I'm in accept and.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Said, these experiences were my life. They were, And I
have a life I love, and I think that that
is where ideally you arrive on your journey. It's not
that these things didn't happen to you. It's not that
you know you get to go back in time and
change it and now be happy.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
It's that like, yeah, they happened.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I have found a way to have reverence for those
things and to make them useful to my life and
to use them to serve others. And I have a
beautiful life. I have a life filled with special people.
I love, yourself included. I have an incredible child that
it's like an honor, like an absolute honor to be
(37:44):
his mother. And just yeah, in so many ways, I
have a life that is filled with adventure, with joy,
with happiness, with challenges, but with a lot of a
lot of specialness.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
And so why not, why not?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Why not? I have reasons I'm not awry, and you
still be my friend. I'm not.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
I mean, I'm just not a hut.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
I don't have it yet. I'm almost I don't have it.
I'm just talking to the fam.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Well that's absolutely not true in any way.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Almost not quite. I look at you, and all I'm
thinking is most is what many people think. Gosh, she's
so beautiful, she's so smart, as she's so common. Should
I should I curse in front of her?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Can I curse in front of her? And you know
I feel real?
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Yeah, I know I can curse. But this is when
people what people feel when they first meet you, you know,
like so strict, feel like they have to be on
their absolute best behavior.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Git me off the pedestal it.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Yeah, you, and and that is who you are, true, true,
true drive. And I don't forget a pistol. I'm just
I'm just out here doing it.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
I am flawed. I am never hot.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
I don't know anything. I know nothing. I know nothing
about you, being flawed.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Simple, complex, blawed creature.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
But yeah, I know what you are is a beautiful
God that's sent here for so many people. We're gonna
take a quick break because we have to pay some bills.
We'll be right back in just a few moments. I
try to take our friendship and use it as a
(39:14):
guide of just what pure love is. I always am.
I am really conscious of this, and I tell her this.
I don't want to give you all my problems and
they make you feel like you got to solve them.
But that's what happens to girlfriends. Like we talk girlfriends
tall him, but let me tell you what he did,
and I just don't want to be with him now,
you know that's that is a constant conversation that we
are having. Oh lordy, do we not do that because
(39:37):
you're playing with her here? Do we not see person
or no personal.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Relations Let's go you first?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Okay, family, have you been dealing with this on?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Tell me? Are you are you dating?
Speaker 3 (39:51):
I am dating? I am dating? Uh, every other day
I'm breaking up with my date though true story. But
you said something earlier and I think it's really interesting
and I trust me. I'm going to turn this back
on you. When we feel something you already know when
we feel something good, why are we fighting it?
Speaker 1 (40:09):
So?
Speaker 3 (40:09):
When I first started dating this guy, I felt like
a little girl, like it was I was in my
my most my innermost cuddly state, and it felt so
awkward and unfamiliar, and I was fighting it because I
didn't want to be sweet and so made me so tough.
And then so I lean into the sweet and soft
of it, and I'm like, this, this feels fine, Okay,
(40:32):
I can do this. Oh yeah, let me relax. Yeah?
Why was I fighting it? Why do we do that
as humans? You explained in the book. But why can't
we just rest in whatever this is?
Speaker 2 (40:44):
It's so natural and we can it's sure.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, why do we have to just say this feels foreign?
Let me relax into it instead of fighting it?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
But why does it have to happen immediately? That's part
of the process. Okay, then won't give me the wisdom.
That's why I'm asking a question.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
That is part of what building love is, right, It's
like moving through your discomfort, through your hang ups, through
your fears, through your old programs, you know, through also
your old projections of other people.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
I think.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Joy intimacy takes practice, you know, And I think that's
the thing that it should be really fair and open
and easy to talk about. Everything takes practice. And earlier
you said something you were like easier said than done.
And I have like a gripe with that particular statement,
because it's like, yeah, like no one is saying it's
(41:41):
easy though, like I'm saying it with my words, but
I'm letting you know it's hard. It's not easy. That
it's going to take practice, and that's the thing. Everyone
wants it to happen immediately. And I think even when
we meet people.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
It's this idea that like it all has to be
perfect now, but like we have to.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Establish like powerful intimate communication. We have to be willing
to be a little naked in front of each other,
to be a little revealed in front of each other.
And if you do that right away, it absolutely doesn't
have the same effect. You haven't had the chance for
other parts of you to catch up, you know, to
even understand what that feeling or that experience is. So
it's like, let it happen slowly, let it unfold, and
(42:22):
then when you make yourself cringe, just have grace for
yourself and laugh at yourself and.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Be like, look at me being so cringe, so ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
I guess age, small ass kid, Like it's all the same, okay,
So going, No, I love that you.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Were talking about like that that nervousness of being able
to feel soft, because I feel like that's what.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
So many women are coming into right now.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
You know.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
It's like when we talk about soft girl era, when
we talk about it, and I think this is for
men too, because like, yes, God, men really deserve to
be soft.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
They do.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Like men truly deserve to be able to take a
load off, to be able to not have it all together,
to reveal themselves emotionally, to be held in safe space
without judgment, with the truth of who they are. And
you know, men go through a lot a lot of
things too, like all of us do, but they don't
have as many avenues to emote about it or to
(43:15):
share about it, you know, And so I think that's
that's really important to keep in mind. But yeah, the softness,
it's so funny because I feel like whenever I date,
that is what I'm like, why can't you let me
be a lover girl? Like, why can't I just be softy?
Speaker 2 (43:32):
I just want to cut my hair?
Speaker 1 (43:33):
And I get this projection, Yeah, let's just let's just
be like, let me be a sweet girl.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Be a sweet girl. I get this projection.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
One either that I'm like two wise or have it
all together, which I'm not and I don't get.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Me off a pedestal.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
But then there's also I get this projection of like
be an aggressive alpha, and I'm like, yeah, sure, I
can show it powerfully in rooms easily.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
I can.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Sure, I can. You know, I have a business. I
can show up in spaces and you know, command my worth.
But with my man no, No, I want to be
I want.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
To be soft. I want to be lad. I want
to be Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Grab me by the hand. Where are we going?
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (44:14):
I don't know, Yeah where? Yeah, No, I'll wait for
you to open the car door. I'll just wait here, honey.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
It's very delicate and d I am so dainty. I
am so stafy.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
This is us every day on the phone.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
This dainty, so fragile. Yeah. And so with that being said,
how's dating for you?
Speaker 2 (44:37):
It's fascinating. Dating is so fascinating. I think, like, what.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
I'm looking to make sure, I'm looking over to the family.
Am I going to get in trouble for asking that?
Speaker 2 (44:50):
I think dating is fascinating. And I think that.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
As someone who was married and got divorced and kind
of came back into the dating world after being gone
for a really long time. I personally think dating has
gotten better than it used to be when I was single,
before I got married in my twenties. I feel like
men are so much more communicative now. I feel like
there's like you're looking at me, like what really, you
(45:16):
know they're not.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
I saw that little glimmer in your eye. You have
this thing in your eye and I know it's like
clicking and you're.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
Like, uh no, no, I'm recalling stories. I'm like, Okay,
that track, that track, That's what I was doing.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
I think a lot of men are more communicative, which
is really nice. I think, you know, the thing about
dating is we're all looking for such different things and
I have a very particular recipe of what I am
looking for in another person, sure, and I have to
have the patience for what that recipe requires, and I
(45:54):
have to be honest with the fact that that is, yes,
thing that takes some deep presents.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Yeah, I dating is hard. I just think it's that
and it doesn't have to be. But I think it's.
As I've mentioned to you before, and I've seen around,
it's the only thing you can get ten thousand hours
too and still be like, how do you do this
this whole because you're supposed to be a expert after
ten thousand hours with dating.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
You don't know how that is so funny because.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
You're just like, wait, okay, and it's the awkwardness. But
it also goes back to what you've been saying in
your book and what you've been saying, let ourselves just feel. Yeah,
if we just allow ourselves to feel, none of this
would be as difficult as it appears to be allowed
ourselves to just feel. Which is why I think your
book is a beautiful revelation and such a great gift God,
(46:41):
and get it today wherever you get your books.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
We are doing a book signing, yes, Atlanta. So by
the time this podcast airs, we have already did the
book signing and people were banging down the doors. Prince
Charmy was outside waiting for you. He had a carriage,
he came on a white horse. He was like, can
I take you and whisk you off into the sunset?
All these things have happened. I'm just I'm just manifesting.
(47:05):
I don't know how I want that. You don't what
would you like?
Speaker 2 (47:09):
I just want someone stable and sturdy and solid.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
But you know, what I wanted to say though, like
last thought about dating would be no, no, I.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
You know what, So this is the thing I.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Think, Yes, ma'am, I'm going to ask you a question. Okay, First,
I'm going to tell you when I think of, like
what what I think is really amazing in another person,
What I would look for in another person, what I
would what I find is attracted.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
It's like, this is going to sound ridiculous to some people,
but I think it's the highest ideal. It's not.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
I don't want the things everybody else wants, but I
want some really big specific things.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
You don't want stable, stirty strong, I.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Want stable, stirty strong, But I want like emotional depth.
I want great communication. I want integrity. Integrity is the
leader there for me. Integrity, honor, dignity. I feel like
if someone is built with that, everything else is workable,
(48:17):
everything else is figure outable.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Everything else would just be a plus.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
Yeah, because you can figure it out. Just if they
have integrity, if they can communicate, they have emotional depth,
that it's all there. All the tools are there. Now
let's talk about the physical. Is there any particular preference because.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
They're doing this?
Speaker 3 (48:36):
You just I'm not doing a sturdy and strong I
am following up as Oprah Wood.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
You said, Jesus, I have a lot of different types.
It's totally just like, man, give me some great intellect, like,
oh my god, be smart.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Uh have integrity.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
There's no physical love. You don't require certain height. You
don't require it because.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
I wouldn't say so. Oh okay, yeah, I think I
think I've dated. I've dated people that I'm five eight.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
I've dated someone that is like my heighight, maybe a
little under dated, much taller.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
And if they had those qualities you just described in abundance,
they would be attractive anyway. I agree with you, they
would want to that. You're nothing more your emotional stable
King is around the corner. He's waiting. I feel it.
You're responsible king.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
I'm gonna wait and I'm not hoping. I like, I'm
living a beautiful full light and I'm taking light.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
I just can I just have somebody walk this journey
with you? Don't you hate your chidents who always want
to get you married.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
I don't like that.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Actually I absolutely hate it too, because I think the
thing that I discovered after I got divorced, I didn't
realize women talked about men so much, and it was
kind of like shocking.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
For me and and a little.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Frustrating for me because anytime I get together with a girlfriend,
everybody wants to talk about men. And I'm like, I
have so many things to talk about. I have so
many other things, and it's always about waiting or wanting
or something coming.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
And I'm like, my life is great.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
You're busy. I feel busy.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
I feel amazing, and I have a lot of fun
and I date and I have I have a full, great, adventurous,
beautiful life. And I think, why can't that be more
than enough? And if something takes me by surprise, it will,
but it's not something I have to like give a
lot of thought to. I'm like, surprise me, life, surprise me.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
You're onto something, though, And I don't necessarily think everyone
women are having the same epiphany you are. Maybe it
might be in a different way, but more and more
you're hearing women being like, no, I'm okay, I'm chill.
Let me just spend some time with my girls for
a day. Great, But I'm not forciate. I'm thinking of
what will happen with Generation Alpha. What I see happening
now with Generation Z. Like you talk to these these
(50:56):
people and they're these kids, and they're like, no, I'm cool.
I know't it's expensive. I'm also that well, I'm gonna
take some photos. I'm gonna like and too.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
Not all dating has to be has to evolve into
something to be valuable, right, Like I feel like I've
dated a bunch and I've dated some really special people
that have like a lot to offer. We just weren't
compatible in really specific ways. But it's like no one
was wrong, no one did anything wrong, and there's nothing
wrong with them, nothing wrong with me.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
It's just like, wow, I.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Really like that was special, Like I really enjoyed this time.
And I also understand that this may not be the
pathboard for both of us for whatever reasons. And it's
like that is okay, you know.
Speaker 3 (51:38):
Oh, And I don't want to say this. I don't
because I hate when people say it to me. But
you are a force and it is so hard for
them to understand all that you are and how humble
that you are. So I could imagine dating Debby might
be difficult or some or intimidating to others. Can you
(51:58):
read them out?
Speaker 2 (51:59):
It's fine, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (52:02):
Know, you know.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
Every everybody got everyone has to Everyone operates in their
emotional capabilities, right like, everyone operates from the best of
what they are in each moment, and I think I'm
just always looking to operate that way too.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
So yeah, I love you. Yeah, And that mean same
to you. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:25):
I mean, damn relationship such as a burden, but I
just deal it. How much do I love you? This
is such a beautiful time, Debbie Brown. The book is
out today right now, go get it wherever you get
your books. I'll say that if you have listened to
this podcast and you understand how amazing my friend is,
(52:47):
she truly is living in wisdom and she just breaks
it down so simply, so eloquently, and there's no pressure
to it, even from the theory of who God is
in your life. There's no pressure to sit with all
of it. And so I appreciate you. I'm learning so much.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
I really am.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
I love you, I really, I really really amid time.
Naked Sports written and executive produced by me Kerry Champion,
produced by Jock Vies Thomas, sound designed and mastered by
Dwayne Crawford. Naked Sports is a part of the Black
Effect Podcast Network, in iHeartMedia,
So I've been working in wellness and well being for
about a decade now, I've been studying it for probably
two decades, and a lot of what I came to
understand when it came time for me to teach or
share this work specifically like meditation nervous system regulation, I
noticed how many people reject it. So part of my
(00:26):
process on learning how to be a great teacher of
these phenomenal life changing tools and modalities was to kind of.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Reverse engineer understanding pain and.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
To really approach it, not by saying, Okay, here's what
you need, here is what you need, but kind of
approach it by being really curious about why don't you
want this? Right, Like, why don't you want good things?
Why don't you want to meet your needs? Why don't
you want to approach looking closer at some of the
harder things, And through taking that approach, it taught me
(01:03):
so much about the ways that we can hide ourselves
from ourselves. And so my biggest intention with this book,
you know, and I got to tell you, like, I
really did kind of struggle with There's so much I
left out of the book because it started to feel
too depressing, and so many miracles too.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
It's like life is bold. It's the duality of both.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
But I've wanted people to understand this work from multiple,
multiple lenses.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Welcome to Naked Sports, the podcast where we live at
the intersection of sports, politics, and culture. Our purpose reveal
the common threads that bind them all. So what's happening
in women's basketball right now is what we've been trying
to get to for almost thirty years. From the stadiums
where athletes break barriers and set records, Kayman Clark broke
(01:55):
the all time single game assists record.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
This is crazy for rookies to be doing.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Our discussions will uncover the vital connections between these realms
and the community we create. In each episode, we'll sit
down with athletes, political analysts, and culture critics, because at
the core of it all, how we see one issue
shines the light on all others. Welcome to the Naked Sports.
I'm your host, Carrie Champion. Hey, everybody, welcome to another
(02:29):
edition of Naked Sports. Carrie Champion here, So I am
in studio. I never do this. This is really interesting.
I normally try to record the podcast during the day,
but our guests today it felt special. It felt like
it should have a nighttime vibe in the city because
we were in New York City recording, but a few
little housekeeping tools. So remember I told everybody we had
(02:50):
the Black Effect Podcast Festival. I really appreciate everybody for
coming out and really giving everybody all the support that
they needed. It was a real beautiful event. So again,
thank you guys for coming out and supporting us. We're
in season four of Naked. I can't believe it. It
just it flew literally right past us. With that being said,
(03:11):
I wanted to give you a little background about our
next guest. I often tell people I'm just like, whatever
city you're from, you're probably proud you're from that city.
I am proud. I like to say I'm from La
Like whatever that means, whatever that is, is what it means.
And if you know, you know, it's one of those
(03:31):
moments like if you're from New York from my Midwest people,
if you're from Chicago, Detroit, there's a certain special representation
that you feel very very proud of to say that's
your city. And so my next guest is from my city.
And the moment that I met her and I knew
of her, but the moment that I met her, I
felt like, Oh, there was this synergy, this vibe. But
(03:54):
she's so low key. She never talks about who she
is or what this world has gets give her. It
is really truly about the experience. And during this time
where our country is uncertain and we are not sure
what will happen, and I know there's a lot of
uncertainty out there and people just don't want to deal
with it, don't want to watch the news. I think
it's really important to have a calm, centering voice in
(04:18):
your life. And she came into my life right on time,
literally right on time. I'm talking about Debbie Brown. Debbie
Brown is a wellness expert. She has a podcast on
this network. She has worked with the Deepak Chopra. She
has been featured in every wellness magazine there could be.
(04:40):
But she had a whole life before that, and that
is where we will begin today's podcast. I'm really curious
how your life started off in radio, essentially doing what
I'm doing right now in a different way. How'd you
get there? Okay, years we both grew up in LA
(05:02):
Where were you What radio stations did you listen to? You?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Oh my god?
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Growing up My favorite station was ninety two point three
The Beat My TiO Gone.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
THEO did ninety with the voice Yes, that deep deep boy.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
And then when I found out that he was Filipino it,
I was like, wait, hold on, you mean to tell.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Me the THEO was that guy? The actually gave me
my first job on the radio many years later. It
was very full circle.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Crazy, but I love ninety two point three. Are you
to listening to Theo? Naica de la Cruz PJ Butter
Like it was like La had such a hybrid radio scene,
like it really did. Like every all the artists that
would come to town. You'd hear like Biggie doing drops Park.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
I was like, oh, I want to do the radio.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
It's gone.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
It is not gone, but it has changed form and
it doesn't feel as localized anymore. It don't felt like
there was that special energy when you're not trying to
create something necessarily for everybody, like when you have a
little more culture on it. And I feel like that's
what LA was at the time, because you remember it
used to be about like, you know, what was the thing?
(06:13):
Oh my god, ninety two point three they have this
saying it was like, No, it was it was seen
no well, no color lines, no color lines because they
were really in the community. They had worn in their
nineties when there was a lot of like gang violence, and.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
So yeah, it just it was such a special time
and that's what we grew up listening to.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
And so that well, in a way, can I be
honest with you, that may have inspired me, I be
to your point, everything felt localized. I didn't really I
didn't think about it as radio. I thought about it
as TV. But all of it played its part because
we listened to certain people. Did you ever call.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Into the radio, oh my god all the time?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Did you ever get through?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yes, Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
What would you do when you get through?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
I remember there.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
You'd be like, yeah, well the tickets what?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, I'd like where the tickets at?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
And then I remember one time me and my girlfriends
and we were total squares, like we were just you know,
like he he watching like you know, like probably tj
IF on a Friday night. But we used to call
in and there was this other really great radio personality
with an incredible voice, and I remember his name was admu.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yes, do you remember it? Oh my god?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Still to this day, have no idea what he looks like,
but I remember that voice. Yeah, And I remember one
time we called up to the station we were we were.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
So young, and we were like, hey, Demo.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
And you know, we were like thinking, we were flirting
with him. We were trying to get tickets on you know,
we're on the party line.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And I remember he was like, I think it's time
for y'all to go to bed girls.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
By Demo.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Where are your goods?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
See you soon? What is THEO?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I know, I don't. I have no idea he was.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
I saw at a club once and I kept walking
around him just to try to get his attention, and
he was like, I'm too famous. And by the way,
it was the club I was supposed to be in.
But that's not the point, damn ougi.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I want to see a little Younghucci in the club.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Okay, I digress. You grow up listening to that and then.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, you know, when I was so when I was younger,
I was influenced by a lot of specific things. One
was like PBS and kc ET, so I did have
cable growing up, so that's all I could really watch.
And I was always like inspired honestly by mister Rogers
by LeVar Burton By by the blend of education and
exposure for young minds like it. It gripped me and
(08:39):
it really kind of taught me how to learn. And
so anytime I've touched anything to this day, no matter
what I'm doing, even if it was my former life
like interviewing rappers, whatever, I was always thinking of it
through that lens, like how do we add like some education,
some exposure to whatever it is that we're talking about.
So that was a big influence for me. LA radio
was a massive influence for me. But then I also
(09:01):
wanted to be a child psychologist and I wanted to
be an anchor woman. So it was kind of like
all of those things at once were always kind of
swirling around me. And then when I got into college,
I had kind of really started emerging in the underground
hip hop scene, Like the blogs hadn't come out yet,
there wasn't that culture, like you still had to get
(09:22):
a physical mixtape. And I started doing like some internet
radio before that was a thing. And then I went
and got an internship at the radio station. I got
an extra internship at like one of the label's universal innerscope,
and I was just grinding it out and working my
way up. But my first, very first gig on the
radio was THEO had stopped. No, he hadn't stopp being
(09:45):
on air, but he had become a program director. And
I was kind of wallowing away at the station, filling
every position, and he was like, I really like your voice.
I want you to do the gossip for my show.
And so we had this like late night gossip segment
called Dirt with Debbie. But it was at a time
before there was gossip that was readily available because there
weren't blogs and there was no Instagram. Yeah, so you
(10:09):
would have to find your gossip once a month when
a when a magazine came out. Yeah, and so yeah,
it was a hard It was a hard thing for
me to do.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I never had enough tea.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Imagine a world, imagine a world with not enough TA.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Couldn't you imagine? I'm like, was there ever a world? Truly?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I know? That's like crazy, I know.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
And then after that I kind of worked my way
up and I ended up doing the news and the
weather and traffic report for the Steaming Show.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
As you're explaining this, I see I see little Debbie,
and I see baby, I see little David Debbie building
and building and building and building, and then there's just
a whole nother world for you after the bill, right, Yeah,
So when did you? Did you ever and during? Because
radio is a different beast now it's not gone to
your point, but it is definitely a different beast.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
But when you when you were, you know, coming up,
who did you see yourself as? Who did you look
up to? Because there are people who you probably admire
that had been there a little bit before you. Or
were you truly just the only one?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:12):
I mean definitely not the only one, right, because I
think something I've come to know is like just how
many women were out there getting it while I was
getting it that I necessarily didn't see or know. Okay,
but I do feel like at that time I didn't
really have anyone I was modeling myself after there weren't
a ton of women on the radio, And then the
(11:32):
few times you'd hear women, it would usually be in
like morning show kind of companion mode, right, so it
would be a lot more focused on ya seeing on
you know, given the gossip on you know, just kind
of like really holding up the male personality. And so
I didn't know, I didn't even think I wanted to
(11:53):
be on air, to be honest, like I wanted to
just help make things happen. And I had really kind
of I had been coming up in the underground hip
hop world of LA, So it was really for me
at that time about getting like certain artists to be
able to get opportunity to get some recognition. And then
I got like my first four am shift, and I
was like, what do I say?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
What am I supposed to? What do I do? I
don't have anything to say.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
I appreciate you humblely being like just kind of getting
some LA artists up and going and kind of just
helping them because there is you don't even know where
I'm going right this. There's just so much humility and
what you've been able to do in this scene and
who people are and you and you say it so casually,
and I know the kids say, humble Bragg, would you
really do have that? Like yeah, No, I grew up
(12:37):
with No. I knew Kendrick, And then there was like
there are people who really are changing the game that
you were friends with and help them and introduce them,
you've and you've watched them grow. How does that make
you feel now looking back on it so inspired. Did
you even know that you were in that type of company?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Absolutely, Oh wow, oh my god, absolutely, yeah, you know,
and I Kendrick was Kendrick hundred thousand percent, Yeah, both
of them. I was really blessed to start in radio
at the same time that just some phenomenal talent like
was coming out of LA and.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Two of the biggest youngest people at.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
That time coming out when I'm like climbing, were you know,
Kendrick Lamar and Nipsey Hustle And yeah, I mean but honestly,
if you really got to look at them when they started,
it was hard not to know, you know, like there
is an anointing as something different, right, Like it gives
a different glow.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
It's not just talent, it's not just music.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
And I remember, you know, watching early Kendrick and like
one of the first times he ever did like a
pop up and this is before the rest of the
country knew him. This was like on the Kendrick Lamar
EP which.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Was early, early, early, early early.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
And I remember going to this like little signing he
did at a record store and like women and children
were crying, but like the rest of the country hadn't
heard of him yet, like deeply emotionally moved by his
work and his presence and wow, like was barely getting started.
And so I think when it comes to someone like him.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
It's just.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
You don't need to be discovered, you it's divine plan
that your work touches the world.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So I think when I look at the fact that
I was able to kind of glimpse and see, you know,
minds like that, heart's like that talent like that so early, early,
young in their career, Like it's just a privilege.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
I wonder for you to say you knew right away.
Now we think about Nipsey, may he rest in peace,
and you think about Kendrick, how beautifully talented they are,
and I'll use current as in, yes they are. It is.
It is what it is. But do you do you
ever think about just being a part of LA culture
(15:01):
for me? And someone kind of tried to, you know,
push back on this at one point, and I was like, no,
I think you know, the LA West Coast rap definitely,
we have our Mount Rushmore and of that started it.
But then you have a whole new world with Nipsey
and Kendrick Yeah, and they picked up this mantle that
(15:22):
was already considered to me golden in so many ways,
and they took it to a much more higher level
of consciousness. Yeah, that was just so to me surreal
to your point, Anointed, and I don't you can't, you
can't quite describe what they were sent here to do
for whatever period of time, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah, Yeah, La is something special, you know. And I
say that as us La native, so not trying to
take away from anyone else that's seen. Every area has,
you know, the things that they do, you know, really incredibly,
but to come from LA is just really something else.
Like the kind of creativity, the kind of adversity, the
(16:05):
kind of opportunity that exists in La. It just creates
this like bubble of synchronicity and genius. And I think
at that time right like we're thinking and kind of
so our brother Charlemagne.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
So I'm so grateful for this.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
I'm so grateful he did the forwards to my book
and one of the things that he shares in the
book is like his first time touching down in La
and like me taking him to meet like Nip and Kendrick, and.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
I remember I had. I had told him.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
I was like, wait right here, I have to get
you music, and I thought I'd be able to like
get home and back quickly. It ended up taking me
like an hour and a half in LA traffic. But
I brought back like literally like five pounds worth of
mixtape of every LA artist that was like making noise
at the time, and I was like, listen to all
of these when you get back to New York, you know.
(16:56):
And I think it's like the talent was just surreal,
and I hope someone makes it a documentary about it
one day, like this moment between like two thousand and
five and twenty ten before music completely changed. But there,
you know, when there's a lot of names that maybe
people around the world won't hear of, but they were
phenomenal talents. LA had something so special. There was a
(17:18):
scene for everything. There was like the new version against
a rap. There was more melodic rap. There was you know,
more you know what you'd call then, like backpacker rap,
conscious rap. Like there was such a lane for so
many different landscapes of Los Angeles.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
I get I feel sorry for people, and I know
we're having our LA moment, but I didn't think about
just like remember back in the day and not not
that we could really enjoy it and enjoy it. I
enjoyed it a little, but like Crenshaw and Sundays and
the car clubs, yes, oh my god, like you're just
like it's there's no way to describe it. Boys and
(17:54):
a Hood did a great job right right at at
the end of the day, there's no way to describe
something that is so special. And listening to you talk
about the city, I wonder, did you ever see a life,
especially during that time when you're literally taking Charlotte made
so you can hear new music from Nipsey and Kendrick,
did you ever see a life where you would leave
radio at that time.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I'll tell you this, I don't wrap my identity around anything.
So like I did radio, and I loved radio and
eventually did it in a couple other states.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
But I wasn't like I am radio. I'm radio forever.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
You know. It's like, this is the way my purpose
is expressing itself right now. But I've always had a
lot of interest, and I think for me it's always
about what is like.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
What makes me feel like I'm.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Being useful to the world, like what makes me feel
like I'm using the best parts of me my brain,
my heart, whatever skills. I'm amassed, right, And so for me,
I'm a very and we're both geminis. I can be
a very restless person and I can be a very
non middle person.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
I feel attacked. I feel attacked. I feel attacked.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
But we're also like loyal to the soil, like we
are there, sheep, We're so loyal and we are. But
you know, there is this piece of us that just
always wants to learn, like always wants to have a
little bit more of something or more understanding. And I
think you know, when it came to.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Radio, I loved it.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
I felt like I was good at it, but I
also felt really limited by it from the start because
I have so many interests and working specifically in hip
hop radio, I can't bring those interests to work.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
I got to talk about one thing all the time.
So yeah, I feel like I was always ready to
do whatever.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
You have been. You were on your path, your spiritual path,
when you when you were drawn to when Nipsey and
Kendrick were drawn to you, You've always been you know
what I mean, Like that wasn't an accident that you
all had met during that time, and our brother Charlemagne.
And if that's an accident, you were always on the path.
You just look back and see You're like, oh, okay
(20:05):
from where I'm supposed to be yea, because it feels
that way. Yeah, for me knowing you, it feels that
way from this story as you share it. We're gonna
take a quick break because we have to pay some bills.
We'll be right back in just a few moments. I
(20:26):
am restless. I will share this with you with Debbie.
Anyone who knows Debbie, if you're listening and or watching,
she won't be your friend if she don't get your
birth chart. She can't get your birth chart. My girl
needs your birth chart before she sit down, you have water, tea,
a sniff, a cry, a drop.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Definitely before I go on a date. I gotta see that.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
What time was you born? In? What hospital?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I know? No? And I'm not even like shy about
it anymore. I'm like, uh huh, okay, yeah, what time?
I'm trying to So, did you ask your mom? No?
Is she around?
Speaker 1 (21:04):
If you're like I don't know, If they're like, who
can you ask? Can you send a text right now,
I got a note.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
This is such a private joke. I'm sorry, I know.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I definitely like when I remember when we first met
on the beach.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
We met on the beach in Florida. She's like, now,
what time were you born? Okay, oh Jim and oh joh.
In like five seconds, you just told me. I was like, correct,
well and we became friends. Have you ever someone give
you their birch chart and you're like, well, I can't
talk to you anymore.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Sorry, Absolutely, that's why, Alice, Oh, for sure in real time. Absolutely,
Oh my god, absolutely, Okay, I think, yeah, listen for
any other astrology lovers out there, or if you're not,
but you're curious right now, I highly recommend the pattern app,
Time Passages, co Star. Those are great apps to learn
about your astrology. But yeah, like I don't have a
(21:59):
lot of time, so fundamental compatibility with friends, with love,
with work with anything, Like anybody that works for me
got to come up off that birth chart too, Like
I need to know what those deeper layers, you know,
things are.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I just got real uncomfortable. Thanks came over my body.
I'm all like, should trying to get a job and
You're like, what time were you born? You're like, tat
five on a Wednesday. If that's cold?
Speaker 2 (22:27):
I know, but it's it can it can't? It can't
tell you so much.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
I I and as we talk about this transition, as
I was asking how did you know? And I felt
like just listening to you tell the story, even of
those two particular artists, your journey Charlemagne, You've always been
on the path. It may have been the platform, may
have been radio at one point, but now you have
really been able to and I don't want to even
(22:53):
say pivot, but you've been Now you've been able to
show your other curious everything else that is that you are,
other things that you want to learn about. In Living
in Wisdom, you give us a lot of out today
April twenty second, buy it a SAP, help my girl
time out everywhere, Audible, listen to it, download, go and
(23:16):
do it. That was a wrap. Could I be a rapper? No? Yeah? No?
By the book is the point. But in Living in Wisdom,
I just think, gosh, how does she do this all
so well? But you share very specific moments that were crushing,
soul crushing, painful physically mentally. Yeah, And each one of
(23:37):
these could be considered pain and or grief. You were
able to turn into magic, the beautiful alchemy of something
that seems painful turning into magic, being a blessing, being better.
Why did you just decide to share your story in
this particular book? Hm?
Speaker 1 (23:56):
So, I've been working in wellness and well being for
about a decade now. I've been studying it for probably
two decades, and a lot of what I came to
understand when it came time for me to teach or
share this work specifically like meditation nervous system regulation, I
noticed how many people reject it.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
So part of my process on learning how to.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Be a great teacher of these phenomenal life changing tools
and modalities was to kind of reverse engineer understanding pain
and to really approach it, not by saying, Okay, here's
what you need, here is what you need, but kind
of approach it by being really curious about why.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Don't you want this?
Speaker 3 (24:39):
Right?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Like why don't you want good things? Why don't you
want to meet your needs? Why don't you want to
approach looking closer at some of the harder things, And
through taking that approach, it taught me so much about
the ways that we can hide ourselves from ourselves, and
so intention with this book, you know, and I got
(25:03):
to tell you, like, I really did kind of struggle
with There's so much I left out of the book
because it started to feel too depressing, and so many
miracles too. It's like life is both, it's the duality
of both. But I wanted people to understand this work
from multiple, multiple lenses, multiple facets, right, And so I
(25:24):
felt that it was really important that people hear stories
from a place of wisdom, not from a place of
centering self or a place of embitterment or a place
of you know, this is what I went through. That's
not how I present it. I share some of the
griefs I felt in a way to explain the processes
(25:46):
of grief and also the miraculous nature that is always available.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
To you when you choose to spend time.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
With your grief.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
You Know, something I was saying to someone recently, and
I'm like, I know this sounds so odd, but I
get so excited to teach grief. I get so excited
to teach and understand pain because it's not something everyone
can do. It's hard to be with those things, but
it's something everyone feels. And I think that I'm really
(26:19):
passionate about what it is to be alive on earth
and a human being. And I think that, you know,
the way emotion is designed, the way that God designed
our human experience. No emotion is more holy, is more important,
is more necessary than any other emotion. We're meant to
kind of be with whatever is true and whatever is present.
(26:42):
So that means grief, that means joy, that means happiness,
that means sadness, that means jealousy, and that means anger,
that means anxiousness, that means all of the full spectrum
of what it is to emote as a human being.
And I think it fascinates me. It fascinates me, And
so yeah, yeah, I think when it came to like
(27:02):
sharing some of my stories, you know it, all of
life hasn't been pretty for me, but it hasn't been
pretty for everybody. A lot of people go through really
hard things and not just one thing, right, Like we're
used to hearing and learning about trauma through the lens
of like, you know, one thing happened to you or
or you know, you had an accident, or you had
(27:24):
this you know, this big harm happen, and that was it.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
That was it. So that's all you got to work through.
How realistic is that for most of us, most of us.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Have had tens and twenties and hundreds of things big
and small happen, compound it continuously, And so those are
usually the reasons why.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
It's harder for me, for you, for us, for they,
for everyone to.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Find this elusive peace, that wellness always telts right. And
so when I teach them, like, it's not that you're
in search of peace in this pristine way.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Of like, ah, you know, that'll come. That can come.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
It takes a lot of time and a lot of work.
But this work is about how do you alleviate some
of your daily suffering, how do you alleviate some of
the internal struggle only you know about, so that your
life actually feels good inside in the same way you
want people to believe it is on the outside.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
It reads first of all, that was so beautiful, And
I just went through a bevy of emotions. I emoated
the entire time because I want you to know the
feeling of especially right now where we are in today's age.
And I can say over the last four or five years,
maybe just the uncertainty, the anxiety that comes with living
in America. There are all of these issues that pop up.
(28:45):
And as soon as I feel something, I want to medicate.
I want it to go away. I don't want to
see the pain. Yeah, this one therapist tell me you
got to sit with that because pretty soon. It doesn't
take forever. It doesn't take forever, as you talk about
in the book. Doesn't take forever. You said one part,
it could be it could start six weeks, six mouths,
thirty days, three seconds, three minutes. You gave some kind
(29:06):
of amount of time. But it goes and it comes
and you get better at it. But I'm really really
curious about a section that you wrote in the book Mastery.
You talk about mastering who you are. Like, to me,
that is the hardest thing. How did you feel okay
(29:27):
with letting everything break and then just leaving it there?
Is that mastering?
Speaker 2 (29:31):
My god?
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, So when something in us kind of falls apart
and we're hurriedly looking to place the pieces back together
or gluten them back together, right, it's really to replicate
some semblance of control. It's really to think, no, no, no,
I'm fine, I'm fine.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
See everything is back together in its place.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
I'm okay, right, And that is actually not the attended path.
Like there's no learning there, there's no growth there, there's
no freedom there. So what I found for myself and
what I hope other people will find, is like, sometimes
you are really brought to your knees by life. There
is no making sense of it. There is no way
to rationalize it, There is no way to you know,
(30:13):
kind of talk yourself out of the pain, the humiliation,
the disappointment, the hurt. And so something I realized in
one of my darkest moments is like I spent my
whole life trying to glue myself back together after every hit.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
What if I didn't do that? What would happen?
Speaker 3 (30:31):
Must I look like?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
What that felt like to me was just shattering and
letting the pieces fall and now experiencing what is it
to be uncontained? Right?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
What if it is if I'm not packed into this tight,
little neat vessel.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
What happens if I just kind of fill the space?
Speaker 3 (30:49):
That feels scary?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, and it is at first, like it does feel scary.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
That sounds scary.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
It's scary because it's unknown, but it's not scary because
anything is wrong. And I think that's what's really important
as we do whatever kind of healing work we're called
to do on ourselves, whatever self actualization. It's like you
have to learn through pain until you realize you don't.
You know, like there is this way you can begin
(31:16):
to be in a relationship with yourself where I believe
you can really work with God, work with the energy
of the universe of humanity to say, like, you know,
I can get that lesson through observation. Show me you
know I can get that observation through like you know,
a twinkling moment.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
I can get it through a breakthrough thought.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I don't always have to wait to get the punch
in the face, to get the shatter, to get the
devastating blow.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
And I think it's important to know that we do
hold that power.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
But if we don't feel our emotions, if we don't
process ourselves, we don't get that option. The only way
to get that option is to choose to feel. And
much like your therapist said, which is just such a
powerful truth. It's like it doesn't take as long as
you think, right, we run from that thing that we
don't want to think about everybody has that thing. Some
(32:12):
people have a lot of time those ruminating thoughts, those
things that no matter.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Where you are.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
You could be at your kids game, at your office,
at a concert, you could be alone in your own
bed thinking about that. It's flashing up and there's no
stone left unturned. There's no reason to keep cycling it forward. Right,
But that happens because it wants to be brought to
your review so it can be accepted and released. And
I think we feel like to accept some of the
(32:38):
harder stories means weakness.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
You living is proof of strength. You living is proof of.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Your adaptability and your ability to be resilient. And to
create the acceptance is just admitting that it happened because
it's true. Not that you liked it, not that it
broke you, not that it was okay, not that that
person should be forgiven, none of it. It's just saying
that it actually did happen. When you see that, when
(33:05):
you look at that, you then get for yourself the
opportunity to change the way that charge feels in your
body when the memory comes back up, and so you'll
find that instead of spending years trying to run from
thinking about it. But it's still like eating a hole
in your brain and your heart every day and the
gut of your stomach every day.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Instead of it being.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Like that, you look at it, you probably have a
few really good cries, right, But.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
What is wrong with crying?
Speaker 1 (33:35):
It's a biological response, feels good, it's a release. It's
your body being able to have a response and release
something that is storing and feeling inside. You'll have a
few good cries and then you'll notice I don't need
a cry as hard anymore. Then you'll notice I'm not
actually crying. I'm curious about this pain.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Now.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Then you'll notice, how is this actually useful to me?
And how can I develop even more esteem and self
respect for myself because I know what it takes to
be me. And then that's where power comes and that's
where purpose gets to emerge.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
But it's all a.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Process, just like you know for those that have babies.
When you have a baby, the doctors always like hit
these developmental milestones. You know, they got to do this
before they flip over. Then they got to flip over
before they can crawl. Then they got to crawl before
they can walk. Right, everything feeds upon itself. It's evolutionary,
but all those steps have to happen at a certain
point for the next step to take place. That is
(34:34):
the same way with our emotional, with our mental, with
our spiritual, with our physical healing, with all healing. You
have to get your reps in, you have to get
your practice in, you have to bear witness to it,
and you have to go step by step developmentally, and
every step of acceptance of process takes you to the
next till eventually it really is this wisdom that resides
(34:56):
in you and not this like crushing weight that holds
you back.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Ladies and gentlemen. That is living in wisdom in a nutshell.
That is a Ted Talk straight from Debbie Brown.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
I'll be giving my Ted talk. Friend, We're not even
wrapping the podcast.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
I was like, that's living in Okay, one more and
then another stuff and another step. Easier said than done.
Because you and I have talked about this, I would
like and this is and honestly I feel like your
book really it's gonna save souls. You know that because
when you share your story and you were candid and
you show that you can break and you can be
built back again and even better if you will people
(35:33):
are going to be like, oh okay, this exists. Her
life isn't as perfect as I think it is.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Oh god, no, how.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
How uncomfortable I am you You mentioned we're geminized. We
could gemini all day, all through this entire podcast, but
we don't like to share our business.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Oh girl, she just roll her eyes talk to me.
I asked myself every day, why did you write this?
Speaker 3 (36:00):
How did you do it? How did you do it?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Why not? I'm not ashamed of anything in my life.
I'm not ashamed I have it.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
When did you arrive? There? Not necessarily be ashamed aspect,
but why not? Why not tell everything? It doesn't mean? Yeah,
all we can do is help, not harm? When did
you arrive? At that point?
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I think that that maybe something that is always up
a review, right, depending on what it is that we're
working with. But what I will say is that every
story I shared in this book is something that I've
made peace with, and so it's not anything in that
book does not actively trigger me. It's something that is
many years behind me, and it's also something that even
(36:41):
if I didn't share the full circleness of it in
the book, has come back.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
To me full circle.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
There has been some kind of restoration, there has been
some kind of healing, there has been a wisdom like
none of it is like outstanding, right, there's no warrants
out for this.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
I'm just like I love it.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
I'm in accept and.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Said, these experiences were my life. They were, And I
have a life I love, and I think that that
is where ideally you arrive on your journey. It's not
that these things didn't happen to you. It's not that
you know you get to go back in time and
change it and now be happy.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
It's that like, yeah, they happened.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
I have found a way to have reverence for those
things and to make them useful to my life and
to use them to serve others. And I have a
beautiful life. I have a life filled with special people.
I love, yourself included. I have an incredible child that
it's like an honor, like an absolute honor to be
(37:44):
his mother. And just yeah, in so many ways, I
have a life that is filled with adventure, with joy,
with happiness, with challenges, but with a lot of a
lot of specialness.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
And so why not, why not?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Why not? I have reasons I'm not awry, and you
still be my friend. I'm not.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
I mean, I'm just not a hut.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
I don't have it yet. I'm almost I don't have it.
I'm just talking to the fam.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Well that's absolutely not true in any way.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Almost not quite. I look at you, and all I'm
thinking is most is what many people think. Gosh, she's
so beautiful, she's so smart, as she's so common. Should
I should I curse in front of her?
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Can I curse in front of her? And you know
I feel real?
Speaker 3 (38:28):
Yeah, I know I can curse. But this is when
people what people feel when they first meet you, you know,
like so strict, feel like they have to be on
their absolute best behavior.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Git me off the pedestal it.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Yeah, you, and and that is who you are, true, true,
true drive. And I don't forget a pistol. I'm just
I'm just out here doing it.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
I am flawed. I am never hot.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
I don't know anything. I know nothing. I know nothing
about you, being flawed.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Simple, complex, blawed creature.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
But yeah, I know what you are is a beautiful
God that's sent here for so many people. We're gonna
take a quick break because we have to pay some bills.
We'll be right back in just a few moments. I
try to take our friendship and use it as a
(39:14):
guide of just what pure love is. I always am.
I am really conscious of this, and I tell her this.
I don't want to give you all my problems and
they make you feel like you got to solve them.
But that's what happens to girlfriends. Like we talk girlfriends
tall him, but let me tell you what he did,
and I just don't want to be with him now,
you know that's that is a constant conversation that we
are having. Oh lordy, do we not do that because
(39:37):
you're playing with her here? Do we not see person
or no personal.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
Relations Let's go you first?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Okay, family, have you been dealing with this on?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Tell me? Are you are you dating?
Speaker 3 (39:51):
I am dating? I am dating? Uh, every other day
I'm breaking up with my date though true story. But
you said something earlier and I think it's really interesting
and I trust me. I'm going to turn this back
on you. When we feel something you already know when
we feel something good, why are we fighting it?
Speaker 1 (40:09):
So?
Speaker 3 (40:09):
When I first started dating this guy, I felt like
a little girl, like it was I was in my
my most my innermost cuddly state, and it felt so
awkward and unfamiliar, and I was fighting it because I
didn't want to be sweet and so made me so tough.
And then so I lean into the sweet and soft
of it, and I'm like, this, this feels fine, Okay,
(40:32):
I can do this. Oh yeah, let me relax. Yeah?
Why was I fighting it? Why do we do that
as humans? You explained in the book. But why can't
we just rest in whatever this is?
Speaker 2 (40:44):
It's so natural and we can it's sure.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, why do we have to just say this feels foreign?
Let me relax into it instead of fighting it?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
But why does it have to happen immediately? That's part
of the process. Okay, then won't give me the wisdom.
That's why I'm asking a question.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
That is part of what building love is, right, It's
like moving through your discomfort, through your hang ups, through
your fears, through your old programs, you know, through also
your old projections of other people.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
I think.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Joy intimacy takes practice, you know, And I think that's
the thing that it should be really fair and open
and easy to talk about. Everything takes practice. And earlier
you said something you were like easier said than done.
And I have like a gripe with that particular statement,
because it's like, yeah, like no one is saying it's
(41:41):
easy though, like I'm saying it with my words, but
I'm letting you know it's hard. It's not easy. That
it's going to take practice, and that's the thing. Everyone
wants it to happen immediately. And I think even when
we meet people.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
It's this idea that like it all has to be
perfect now, but like we have to.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Establish like powerful intimate communication. We have to be willing
to be a little naked in front of each other,
to be a little revealed in front of each other.
And if you do that right away, it absolutely doesn't
have the same effect. You haven't had the chance for
other parts of you to catch up, you know, to
even understand what that feeling or that experience is. So
it's like, let it happen slowly, let it unfold, and
(42:22):
then when you make yourself cringe, just have grace for
yourself and laugh at yourself and.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Be like, look at me being so cringe, so ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
I guess age, small ass kid, Like it's all the same, okay,
So going, No, I love that you.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Were talking about like that that nervousness of being able
to feel soft, because I feel like that's what.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
So many women are coming into right now.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
You know.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
It's like when we talk about soft girl era, when
we talk about it, and I think this is for
men too, because like, yes, God, men really deserve to
be soft.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
They do.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Like men truly deserve to be able to take a
load off, to be able to not have it all together,
to reveal themselves emotionally, to be held in safe space
without judgment, with the truth of who they are. And
you know, men go through a lot a lot of
things too, like all of us do, but they don't
have as many avenues to emote about it or to
(43:15):
share about it, you know, And so I think that's
that's really important to keep in mind. But yeah, the softness,
it's so funny because I feel like whenever I date,
that is what I'm like, why can't you let me
be a lover girl? Like, why can't I just be softy?
Speaker 2 (43:32):
I just want to cut my hair?
Speaker 1 (43:33):
And I get this projection, Yeah, let's just let's just
be like, let me be a sweet girl.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Be a sweet girl. I get this projection.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
One either that I'm like two wise or have it
all together, which I'm not and I don't get.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Me off a pedestal.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
But then there's also I get this projection of like
be an aggressive alpha, and I'm like, yeah, sure, I
can show it powerfully in rooms easily.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
I can.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Sure, I can. You know, I have a business. I
can show up in spaces and you know, command my worth.
But with my man no, No, I want to be
I want.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
To be soft. I want to be lad. I want
to be Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Grab me by the hand. Where are we going?
Speaker 2 (44:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (44:14):
I don't know, Yeah where? Yeah, No, I'll wait for
you to open the car door. I'll just wait here, honey.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
It's very delicate and d I am so dainty. I
am so stafy.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
This is us every day on the phone.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
This dainty, so fragile. Yeah. And so with that being said,
how's dating for you?
Speaker 2 (44:37):
It's fascinating. Dating is so fascinating. I think, like, what.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
I'm looking to make sure, I'm looking over to the family.
Am I going to get in trouble for asking that?
Speaker 2 (44:50):
I think dating is fascinating. And I think that.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
As someone who was married and got divorced and kind
of came back into the dating world after being gone
for a really long time. I personally think dating has
gotten better than it used to be when I was single,
before I got married in my twenties. I feel like
men are so much more communicative now. I feel like
there's like you're looking at me, like what really, you
(45:16):
know they're not.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
I saw that little glimmer in your eye. You have
this thing in your eye and I know it's like
clicking and you're.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
Like, uh no, no, I'm recalling stories. I'm like, Okay,
that track, that track, That's what I was doing.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
I think a lot of men are more communicative, which
is really nice. I think, you know, the thing about
dating is we're all looking for such different things and
I have a very particular recipe of what I am
looking for in another person, sure, and I have to
have the patience for what that recipe requires, and I
(45:54):
have to be honest with the fact that that is, yes,
thing that takes some deep presents.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
Yeah, I dating is hard. I just think it's that
and it doesn't have to be. But I think it's.
As I've mentioned to you before, and I've seen around,
it's the only thing you can get ten thousand hours
too and still be like, how do you do this
this whole because you're supposed to be a expert after
ten thousand hours with dating.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
You don't know how that is so funny because.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
You're just like, wait, okay, and it's the awkwardness. But
it also goes back to what you've been saying in
your book and what you've been saying, let ourselves just feel. Yeah,
if we just allow ourselves to feel, none of this
would be as difficult as it appears to be allowed
ourselves to just feel. Which is why I think your
book is a beautiful revelation and such a great gift God,
(46:41):
and get it today wherever you get your books.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
We are doing a book signing, yes, Atlanta. So by
the time this podcast airs, we have already did the
book signing and people were banging down the doors. Prince
Charmy was outside waiting for you. He had a carriage,
he came on a white horse. He was like, can
I take you and whisk you off into the sunset?
All these things have happened. I'm just I'm just manifesting.
(47:05):
I don't know how I want that. You don't what
would you like?
Speaker 2 (47:09):
I just want someone stable and sturdy and solid.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
But you know, what I wanted to say though, like
last thought about dating would be no, no, I.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
You know what, So this is the thing I.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Think, Yes, ma'am, I'm going to ask you a question. Okay, First,
I'm going to tell you when I think of, like
what what I think is really amazing in another person,
What I would look for in another person, what I
would what I find is attracted.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
It's like, this is going to sound ridiculous to some people,
but I think it's the highest ideal. It's not.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
I don't want the things everybody else wants, but I
want some really big specific things.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
You don't want stable, stirty strong, I.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Want stable, stirty strong, But I want like emotional depth.
I want great communication. I want integrity. Integrity is the
leader there for me. Integrity, honor, dignity. I feel like
if someone is built with that, everything else is workable,
(48:17):
everything else is figure outable.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Everything else would just be a plus.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
Yeah, because you can figure it out. Just if they
have integrity, if they can communicate, they have emotional depth,
that it's all there. All the tools are there. Now
let's talk about the physical. Is there any particular preference because.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
They're doing this?
Speaker 3 (48:36):
You just I'm not doing a sturdy and strong I
am following up as Oprah Wood.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
You said, Jesus, I have a lot of different types.
It's totally just like, man, give me some great intellect, like,
oh my god, be smart.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Uh have integrity.
Speaker 3 (48:58):
There's no physical love. You don't require certain height. You
don't require it because.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
I wouldn't say so. Oh okay, yeah, I think I
think I've dated. I've dated people that I'm five eight.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
I've dated someone that is like my heighight, maybe a
little under dated, much taller.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
And if they had those qualities you just described in abundance,
they would be attractive anyway. I agree with you, they
would want to that. You're nothing more your emotional stable
King is around the corner. He's waiting. I feel it.
You're responsible king.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
I'm gonna wait and I'm not hoping. I like, I'm
living a beautiful full light and I'm taking light.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
I just can I just have somebody walk this journey
with you? Don't you hate your chidents who always want
to get you married.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
I don't like that.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
Actually I absolutely hate it too, because I think the
thing that I discovered after I got divorced, I didn't
realize women talked about men so much, and it was
kind of like shocking.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
For me and and a little.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Frustrating for me because anytime I get together with a girlfriend,
everybody wants to talk about men. And I'm like, I
have so many things to talk about. I have so
many other things, and it's always about waiting or wanting
or something coming.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
And I'm like, my life is great.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
You're busy. I feel busy.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
I feel amazing, and I have a lot of fun
and I date and I have I have a full, great, adventurous,
beautiful life. And I think, why can't that be more
than enough? And if something takes me by surprise, it will,
but it's not something I have to like give a
lot of thought to. I'm like, surprise me, life, surprise me.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
You're onto something, though, And I don't necessarily think everyone
women are having the same epiphany you are. Maybe it
might be in a different way, but more and more
you're hearing women being like, no, I'm okay, I'm chill.
Let me just spend some time with my girls for
a day. Great, But I'm not forciate. I'm thinking of
what will happen with Generation Alpha. What I see happening
now with Generation Z. Like you talk to these these
(50:56):
people and they're these kids, and they're like, no, I'm cool.
I know't it's expensive. I'm also that well, I'm gonna
take some photos. I'm gonna like and too.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
Not all dating has to be has to evolve into
something to be valuable, right, Like I feel like I've
dated a bunch and I've dated some really special people
that have like a lot to offer. We just weren't
compatible in really specific ways. But it's like no one
was wrong, no one did anything wrong, and there's nothing
wrong with them, nothing wrong with me.
Speaker 3 (51:24):
It's just like, wow, I.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
Really like that was special, Like I really enjoyed this time.
And I also understand that this may not be the
pathboard for both of us for whatever reasons. And it's
like that is okay, you know.
Speaker 3 (51:38):
Oh, And I don't want to say this. I don't
because I hate when people say it to me. But
you are a force and it is so hard for
them to understand all that you are and how humble
that you are. So I could imagine dating Debby might
be difficult or some or intimidating to others. Can you
(51:58):
read them out?
Speaker 2 (51:59):
It's fine, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (52:02):
Know, you know.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
Every everybody got everyone has to Everyone operates in their
emotional capabilities, right like, everyone operates from the best of
what they are in each moment, and I think I'm
just always looking to operate that way too.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
So yeah, I love you. Yeah, And that mean same
to you. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:25):
I mean, damn relationship such as a burden, but I
just deal it. How much do I love you? This
is such a beautiful time, Debbie Brown. The book is
out today right now, go get it wherever you get
your books. I'll say that if you have listened to
this podcast and you understand how amazing my friend is,
(52:47):
she truly is living in wisdom and she just breaks
it down so simply, so eloquently, and there's no pressure
to it, even from the theory of who God is
in your life. There's no pressure to sit with all
of it. And so I appreciate you. I'm learning so much.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
I really am.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
I love you, I really, I really really amid time.
Naked Sports written and executive produced by me Kerry Champion,
produced by Jock Vies Thomas, sound designed and mastered by
Dwayne Crawford. Naked Sports is a part of the Black
Effect Podcast Network, in iHeartMedia,
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