January 6, 2025 • 32 mins
On today’s episode host Cari Champion engages with Napheesa Collier, a player and co-founder of the new women's basketball league, Unrivaled. They discuss the evolution of women's basketball, the challenges faced by female athletes, and the innovative approach of Unrivaled in addressing salary disparities and creating generational wealth for players. The conversation also touches on the impact of NIL in college sports, the growing fan base for women's basketball, and the need for consistent officiating in the WNBA. Collier expounds on the importance of equity and recognition for female athletes and expresses optimism for the future of women's sports.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Naked Sports, the podcast where we live at
the intersection of sports, politics, and culture. Our purpose reveal
the common threads that bind them all.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So what's happening in women's basketball right now is what
we've been trying.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
To get to for almost thirty years.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
From the stadiums where athletes break barriers and set records,
Kamen Quark broke the all time single game assists record.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
This is crazy for rookies to be doing.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
To the polls where history is written, and now we
have Kamala Harrison. It feels more like women are sort
of taking what they've always deserved, as opposed to waiting
on somebody to give them what they deserve. Our discussions
will uncover the vital connections between these realms and the
community we create. In each episode, we'll sit down with athletes,
(00:48):
political analysts, and culture critics because at the core of
it all, how we see one issue shines the light
on all others. Welcome to Naked Sports. I'm your home
host carry Champion.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
My name is Nafisa Collier and I play in Unrivaled
and the DUBNBA for the Minnesota Leagues.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Listen carefully because Nafisa Collier just casually identified herself with history.
Not only is she a player in the WNBA, but
she's also part owner, founder, and player in Unrivaled. It's
a league built in collaboration with some of the biggest
stars in women's basketball Brittany Griner, Skyler Diggins, Angel Rees,
(01:31):
and Sabrina Unescue, just to name a few. Unrivaled will
start its inaugural season this new year, January twenty twenty five.
It's an innovative three on three professional women's basketball league
founded by US Olympians Nafisa Collier and Breonna Stewart. The
league will feature six teams with six players on each team.
(01:52):
It's also setting your record for the highest average salaries
in women's sports history. That according to all reports and
from Unrivaled as well. All thirty six initial players will
receive equity ownership. Well. According to a senior Administration official,
Britney Rener is free after two hundred and ninety four
days in Russian captivity. Britney Griner's captivity in Russia highlighted
(02:15):
the inequities and professional women's basketball, a few of the
main concerns since its inception in nineteen ninety seven. Women's salary,
women who must play overseas to make a better living
and create a solid future for after basketball. So Unrivaled
will attempt to be a solution for all of these problems.
I had an opportunity to catch up just before the
(02:36):
holidays and again a month away from the season start.
So Unrivaled three on three basketball starts in January. It's
inaugural season. Please talk to me about what three on
three basketball is, just the basics. We normally know what
we see in the WNBA. What is three on three basketball?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
So for our three on three basketball, we actually have
two baskets, just like normal five on five, and we
wanted to like, it's going to be exactly like five
on five, the same rules as the WNBA, but we
wanted to give more space to the players because the
premise is we have the best players in the world here.
And so I've heard the WNBA a lot of times
be compared to like the NBA of the eighties just
(03:17):
really bogged down the paint, really physical, and so we
took two people from each team off, so it's three
on three and it just gives you more space to
create more space to see these amazing players' skills a
little bit faster paced. So I think it's gonna be
like highly entertaining for many reasons, because it's gonna be
really fast, and because you get to see all these
amazing players.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Now, when you say amazing players, it was almost as
if when you had announced that this league was coming unrivaled,
can you tell me the inception, Like where was this
idea born and how did it come to life?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I think just like being in the league for several
years at that point, you kind of just see what
is working really well and where the holes are. And
I think one of them was you know a lot
of players are having to go overseas and so you're
seeing like a lot of injuries through that, you see
people missing time at home for the holidays and with
their families.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
And a huge one is we make most of our money.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
A lot of people don't know this off the court,
like we make the least amount of money almost on
the court, and so brand building is the most important
aspect of our job. You have to be able to
build your brand in order to activate with you know,
if you want to get like a deal with Nike
or with you know, a drink or whatever, it is,
and when you go overseas, you kind of go dark
for six months, you're not able to activate with brands,
(04:33):
you're not able to grow your own brand, and so
kind of through all that we came up with unrivaled.
And then another huge thing is the sport is just
absolutely exploding. I think that was really apparent this year.
We have been in the works for two and a
half years now, so we just kind of came in
at the there's just perfect timing for.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Us, but you can see it exploding.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It feels like everyone except for the people who are
putting the products out there, are you know, capitalizing off
of that. And so we wanted to create generational wealth
for these athletes who are the ones like putting in
this work. And so we're super proud that every athlete
has equity in the league as well.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Everyone involved in this league should be proud. Each player,
according to reports, start somewhere between two hundred and two
hundred and fifty k, give or take a few thousand.
The concept was an idea she and her husband Alex,
an entrepreneur and also a well respected trainer in our sport,
talked about some time ago.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So originally it started with like Alex and I talking
at home about it, and then in the very very beginning,
we're like, Okay, if we're going to do this, we
needed to be the best players because you in order
to have a successful product, you have to have the
best players. I just really believe that you any league
that started, you have to have the best people.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
So, like, Okay, who's one of the best players in
the world.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Obviously Stuwie is one of the best players in the world,
and so we went to her really early when it
was like just in its inception, We're like, we have
this idea.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Do you want to be a part of it with us?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
And so, you know, she said yes, and then it
started to grow from there where we started to really
flush things out and so yeah, that's that's kind of
like the beginning of it.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
That's amazing. That really truly is amazing. And here it is.
You have just about every single superstar. There's so many
superstars a the WNBA. First of all, let me just
not single out just the many that are playing for unrival.
You say every single player has equity, how much money
or how much equity they have? What is the percentage?
Does it vary depending on the player and their contract.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
It does vary on the player, varies on if you've
signed for multiple years. Some people are on one year,
some people are on a two or three. So that's
kind of how that was based.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Okay, all right, So then I if you want to
if the concept is to raise generational wealth, can you
think of another league that's doing what you all are
doing giving the player the actual equity.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I don't any leaks.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, I don't know if any league that has equity
with players that are currently playing.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I think you're the only ones.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, I'm i And I mean i'd have to do
the research on that, but I'm really cur I am
very confused because I'm thinking you all might.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Be live golf. Maybe I don't.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Know, Yes, yeah, maybe maybe. But you're in rare air
and this, this blueprint now has put you in a
position where not only are you a quote unquote employee
at the WNBA, but now you're a boss with unrivaled
How does that transition feel? What have you learned as
a player being a player now that you're a boss.
And then I'll ask the question in reverse, obviously.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I think just I mean, it's a whole different world
and you just you don't get it if you're a player.
Like the logistics bind everything, I mean, creating a whole
entire league, like just everything that goes into you don't
know what, you don't know until you get there. We're
really fortunate to have like the best of the best.
We really were really intentional about going out and getting
those people so that we are great in our lanes.
(07:43):
You know, we're gonna stay in our lanes. We need
to get people who are good in their lanes. We're
not trying to be the best everything. We're trying to
get people who are the best in their respective fields
so that we can make a whole, you know, united
best product. And so I think we did a really
great job of doing that. But I think what I
learned is just the business. You know, as players, you're
always asking for more money, and that is our number
one goal is to give players more money.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
But I think just learning the logistics behind it was
a lot different.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
When you say the goal as players is to give
more money, and that's all we ever hear, pay these
women more money. We want more money. The salary disparity
is huge now that you are on the receiving end,
of people saying want more money. Do you understand why
certain women are excuse me, why the women of the
WNBA aren't paid as much as that's still outrageous to you.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
I think we have a really good business plan.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
You know, we were able to create our own business
model which allows us to pay players as much money.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
There's a lot of reasons why the w can't. I
think we do.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
We still can get more money in the WNBA, but
they are handcuffed by a lot of things, Like you know,
the NBA owns a lart I think the majority of
the WNBA and just you know, it's been running for
a long time in a time where women's sports wasn't
as popular. We came in at a time where we
could capitalize off of that and we can play pay
the players accordingly to what you know, our market value is.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
So I think our business plan is just really good.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
And I mean, you know, and I don't have real
insight into W's business plan, but I feel really confident
in ours.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Well. Also, you saw what they did and you were
able to do things differently improve on where the lack is.
And that's not a disrespectful thing. That's why there's always
a first so that you can improve on the second
and the third and the fourth. I'm curious as to
what the average salary is for each player in unrival.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
We are really proud of what we've been able to make.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, I mean yeah, I think just really proud, like
this is what we wanted. We want to lift the game,
and I really think that, you know, high tide lifts
all boats. We are here to supplement the WNBA. We
by building these players up a build the WNBA and
vice versa. When they're built in the w it will
build us. Same with overseas. We're seeing people get a
lot higher contracts overseas and in other leagues, you know,
(09:49):
other off season leagues, the contracts are growing. So I
think just the entire market. That's what we're trying to
do is lift all, like all areas of our sport.
And so I think just that we're super proud to
able to have you accomplished that without even playing it.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
That's a true team approach, that is true. We are
a team a response, you are all we all got
to we in this together. So it says average Unrivaled
salary to twenty two WNBA two fourteen and it's eight weeks. Okay,
we got it right here, thank you, all right, eight
weeks put it in. We got the researcher on the line. Okay.
So so in two months, in two months, because that's
(10:24):
eight weeks in two months. My math is amazing. You
all are going to be able to give these players
their max salary that they would make if they had
been a tenured player in the WNBA, according to this
new business plan. So what you're proving is that the
(10:45):
money is there and available if you create the actual
conduit the vehicle to do so. Moving forward, what would
you like Unrivaled to be in your greatest wildest dreams?
What does unrivaled become?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
I honestly feel like the sky's a limit, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I think when you have the best players behind you,
you can do anything. You know, I hope we do expanding,
you know, selling off to different cities for different teams.
You know, we're traveling, We're going on the road for
different tour stops in the next couple of years.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
When we returned, Defisa talks about the good and the
bad growing pains of the WNBA back in a moment,
do you mind telling us a little bit about what
we are witnessing. I watched you on Sixty Minutes when
they were talking about the rise of the WNBA, and
(11:42):
you talked about a world that you have lived in
in real time when you first got to the league
and what it is like now. Tell me, tell me
the difference from when you graduated from Yukon and you
were a rookie in this league and then how it
feels now in terms of travel, respect, notoriety, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
It's way different.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
And it's crazy to say that because I mean, I
came in six years ago. It's not like it's been
decades like change usually happened so slowly when.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I came in. I mean, of course the w's on
the rides every year is on the rise. But I
think just with.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
The explosion of social media in the college game, I
really think, honestly, the catalyst was when you know, they
put those videos out of the weight room at the
Final four and everybody was outraged about how different it
was from the men's to the women's. For me, that
is when it feels like it exploded, like where everybody
started paying attention, not just like diehard fans of women's sports.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
And then you had the bubble.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
That happened, which added to that where we were on
the only sports on TV, so you had no choice
but to watch us. Something we've been saying for years
is if you just put us on TV, people will watch.
And so we were finally put on TV and we
gained a following there, and then you have again the
explosion of these people in college where they're bringing their
fan bases and it just compiles on and to see that.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Happening so so quickly, it's just been so fun.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And to be able to like have any part of
that at all, to be able to play in that time,
it was just like it's just been incredible to watch.
And I think it's just so it's so it's just
a really cool experience to see something growing that you
feel really passionate about, like coming to life and everything
that people who.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Are been in women's sports have been saying.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Finally can be like, see, we told you so, we
were right, and like that feeling is always great.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yeah, it definitely isn't and I told you so feeling.
I was talking to one of the players and I
think they when they were playing the Liberty. She was
saying the difference between the hotel they would have had
two years ago versus the hotel they have now when
they come to New York is night and day, and
the theater.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
We are playing in and now we're there at Barclays, Like.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, like you literally the beginning of what they had
for at the Liberty and here you are packed out
in Barclays arguably better games than the Nets, not even
arguably if I'm being honest with you, and you are,
you're seeing an entire new fan base. Now. I don't
think that this. I think that this has exactly what
it takes to last. I don't think some people critics
(14:02):
will say, I don't know how long this can last.
But I feel as if the maturation process the twenty
five plus years is right around when the now NBA
started to find its legs and you could see who
these players were. It's not necessarily par for part, but
it is very similar that it does need this transition period.
You need that one or two or you need that thing.
(14:24):
And you're absolutely right about that video because I think
everyone was like, is this what's happening? How unfair? How
blatantly unfair? And I always said this about women. When
you play basketball, you play it because you love it.
You don't do it for the money. You definitely don't
do it for the fame, And to see a time
now where you guys are doing getting it for those
(14:45):
reasons plus just the pure love. Do you still think
you'd still play this game until you couldn't play anymore
if you didn't have this type of access in terms
of new resources and new money.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Absolutely, I mean sports are just a part of me,
you know.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
It's just like in my DNA and I honestly I
still don't play for those things. Like, yes, obviously it's
really nice that you don't have to play overseas or
do other things in order to be able to do
this thing that you love. But like, how how fortunate
are we that we do get to play something that
we love? And when I'm done playing, there are very
few games that I'll actually remember, but I'm always gonna
(15:23):
remember the bonds that I've made with these people that
I've played with. I mean, several girls that I went
to college with were bridesmaids in my wedding. You know,
people on my link seeing were bridesmaids in my wedding.
Just the relationships that you form with people, the experiences
that you get the different countries, have been able to
go to the different people from all different cultures and backgrounds,
and you know, everything that.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I've gotten through the sport. I didn't do that for
money or fame.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
I did it for the experience and because I love
playing basketball, So I absolutely it'd still I would still
play even if you know it wasn't growing the way
it is now.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
So of course with all the growing pains, there are adjustments.
Piece of shares what could be the next trend in
college sports, We'll be right back. So if you are
familiar with college sports, you know that NIL has changed
the game. Women specifically in college sports, make more money
(16:18):
than women in the pros and that could change the
dynamic of the league and years to come. Do you
ever fear that it will change? And by fear, I
mean not in a bad way, but like the motives
for why some of the women play the sport will change.
Do you feel like that's on the horizon.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
No, I honestly fear more for college than I do
for professional sports, because like professional sports, I think that's
the nature of the game, like you are playing for money,
but in college I feel like NIL is taking that away,
Like I think college just takes one of the times
where you're supposed to, you know, find who you are
in experience life, and create that fond with.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
People that you're playing for for four years.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
I think turning that into a professional sport by having
people like sign one year contracts with NIL, I think
I'm a little bit sad about that for them, and
I also such a great thing.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
I just think they need to hone it in. But
I'm not really worried about the professional game as much.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
It's interesting you bring that up because we've been saying
that it's definitely the wild wild West. We're starting to
see players sue certain schools for not giving them the money,
or certain you know, entities that are not giving them
the money they promised, or just refusing to play it is.
It's becoming a different it's a different world. This is
why you see different coaches leaving. You come from royalty
when it comes to college basketball, more specifically women's college
(17:38):
basketball at Yukon. Do you feel it's interesting to me
because I don't hear so much about NIL and the
money at Yukon like I do at other programs. Is
it because of the respect that people have for Junium
and that program or is that not something you believe
he adheres too because he's still very much an old
(17:58):
school coach.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Yeah, I think it's both.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I mean he they're in a position where they've built
up the name of Yukon for forty years. We're just
the forty year you know, anniversary, and so people you.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Don't go there for the money.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
You go there because it's Yukon, you know, and you
go there to play for those coaches. So I think
that hasn't like maintained its integrity a little bit. And
I'm sure there's other programs like that too, but you know,
when you it's a new program and you got new
coaches and they haven't built that, like you have to
bring other things in, which now is money and whatever
else it is. So yeah, I think coaches, I think,
(18:37):
And he'sn't like you said, he's old school. You know,
we weren't allowed to like our fingernails or have colored
hair like that when I was there. Like, they do
things a certain way and it's worked for them for
a really long time. And they recruit a certain player. Also,
they're not going to try to get a player that's
asking them for all this money, because that's not the way.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
They do it there.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, they want you to do it for the love
in IL is going to be really interesting. I do believe, though,
to your point earlier about the fan bases that are
following these players. We saw what happened with Kaitlyn Clark,
we saw what happened with Angel Reese. Their fan bases
followed them to the league. And I think that most recently,
and you were asked about this in that sixty minute special,
(19:16):
most recently, Kitlyn Clark had acknowledged her what she calls
her white privilege and how she wanted to make sure
that she acknowledged all of the players who built this
league before she came, and there was a lot of
pushback Caitlyn Clark. Do you feel is one of the
main reasons why people are paying attention to college mean,
excuse me, to women's basketball now?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah, And I don't think that should be something that's debated.
Like she did bring in a really big fan base.
I think the argument comes in when people are saying,
like she is the WNBA or she built the DUBNBA.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Well, that's not true. We've had it for a really
long time.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
You've had amazing like Hall of Fame players that have
built this every step of the way.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
We've never had an explosion like this.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
We've never had the exposure like this, like just the
access to the players.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
It's never more than it is now.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And so you weren't able to see these amazing players
that are long retired, you know, who have built it
before then, and even starts in the league now who
were here before this rookie class came in, have built
this league. And so one hundred percent, they did bring
a lot of fans, but also we had a growing
fan base. But I think you no question they accelerated it.
(20:25):
But I think that they do, Like I don't think
that's something that should be debated. I think it's pretty
obvious if they did accelerated it. But the product was
already there. I think we already had amazing players, and
that's what you need to do to grow a business.
You need to add more amazing players, which is what
we did.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
It's the yes and of it all. Yes, and this
league was already great. And the reason why she was
inspired to play in the league is because she saw
other women play in the league who also happened to
be black or black women who were killing it, and
she was like, I want to be able to do this.
This is the the issue that I think people have
(21:01):
is that the WNBA was such an exclusive club for
so long. You know, it felt like a very exclusive
group of people with an exclusive club, and you're not
invited to the party, and if you want to come, great,
we'll welcome you in. And then all of a sudden,
all these people got in line and a club got
real crowded, and then everybody was like, wait a second,
you are you in the club now? So I think
(21:23):
there's a growing and adjustment period that the league is
experiencing right now with its fan base. How would you
describe this growing and or adjustment period with this new
fan base and the existing WNBA fans.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I think there are definitely growing pains, just like with anything,
you know, but I think it's good and bad.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Like there's no room for hate.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
In our league, no room for you know, like homophobia
or racism or any of those things.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
But the ignorance. You can't be too mad at people.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
They they're new, Like they're new people and to have
something grow this is what we been asking for. We
want more people to watch us. Well, they're not going
to know everything when they first come in. You know
they're going to come in for one player, sure, but
then they fall in love with other players are they
fall them with love with other teams, and they're learning more.
When you're new to something, you're not going to know
everything about it right away, and that might be frustrating
(22:16):
for the people who are already here who knew we
had something great. But we do have something great, and
we want it to grow. We don't want to keep
it to ourselves. And so I think that's kind of
been like the adjustment period. Again, it's a lot different
when you get into like the toxicity of some of
the things that were happening this year, but as far
as like the casual fan coming in, and I think
it's great for the game, the discourse around it. When
(22:37):
people are arguing, you're still talking about it. You know,
whether you love this player, hate this player, you're still
talking about it. Whoever you're cheering for, whatever it is.
So I actually think that the casual fan you need
that in.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
A growing business, you there is nothing And I forgive me,
and I hope you understand when I say this rivalry
competition all the things sports are made of needed, so
you should be able to have that when people I
have when we did a series on Caitlin Clark versus
angel Rees, and it was just about the rivalry and
(23:09):
why it's so amazing. My hope is that women are
allowed to compete as athletes period, no gender assigned, but
just as athletes. I've noticed so much sensitivity around the idea,
especially coming from new fans, of how women should compete.
What do you think that expectation is? What do you
(23:30):
think they're coming to see when women play basketball?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
The new fans who thinks that we are that are
too sensitive, Oh because they're so physical?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Correct? No?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I mean maybe it's.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Just like a social bias that women aren't physical and
we should be like danty and stuff. But it's hard
for me because I've been in sports my whole life,
so I've never seen that, you know, like I've only
ever been aggressive, but I've only ever been around aggressive people,
So it's kind of hard for me to like see
the side they're coming from.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
But I hope they know now, like where about choke,
like find the death to win? We are competitors.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
It doesn't matter our gender, like we want to win,
just like anybody who's competitive. We're out there too for
a common goal with our teammates and we're going to
do whatever canada or achieve it.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
I think it's bizarre because they're like, wait, they're so
physical with how they're playing, and I'm like, wait, do
you say that when you watch the NBA?
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I think you know what it is. The NBA is
not that physical. We are anymore. So, Yeah, you're only
used to watching that.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
We I think our game is more physical, especially in
the first half of this WNBA season.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
There's like a technical every game. We were throwing punches
every game.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Wait, so listen, do you you think women are more
physical than men?
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Really?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Because it is? And well is there any assignment to that?
Why is that? Why is the woman's game more physical
in the men's game?
Speaker 3 (24:47):
In your opinion, I think they're refereeing. They were like
letting us.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And again, when you put like a bunch of competitive
people around, emotions are so high. When you're playing, you're
physically and mentally exhausted, you know, and people are push
you the whole time. You're gonna get testy. And if
you're allowed to be like that, it's going to escalate.
So it's the referees job to keep that under the control.
And that's why I was saying, we've been compared to
the NBA of the eighties a lot. Especially have you
(25:12):
seen the Michael Jordan documentary The Last Dance where they're
just like tackling.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Him mad air.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
You know, we're not doing that, but the referees allowed that,
and so it was that's what happened. And then they
cleaned up the game. And you know, now it's like
TIGGI Tech foules whole time in the NBA, but we're
still allowed to be more physical, and so that's what
that's what we are.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
And and I do believe that makes the game more
exciting because people will tell you that the the NBA,
obviously the bad boy Pistons that you refer to when
they were beating up Michael Jordan, the NBA of yesteryear
is considered you know, let some let anybody tell you
those are the good times. Charles Barkley, you have many
fights that we've seen him in, and I mean literally
physical fights, like two piece in a biscuit fights, And
(25:55):
I just used to be like, that's not happening. You're
absolutely right. That's not happening in the NBA, are you.
I always reference when they talk about Caitlin Clark being
physically pushed around our reference. Do you remember the Do
you remember the canvas Parker her rookie years? You remember that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:08):
You remember people?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
She was Pearson, she was my assistant coach when I
first came into the Links.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Oh do you know that? Like they there was no
love lost like and it was very clear and in
my mind, I think people appreciate that and want to
see that. So if you're telling me that the w
NBA is more physical, which I'm just blown away by
right now, because now that you think about it, that
makes it. It makes it so, It makes it so
(26:36):
clear why people are so sensitive. Do you think that
the referees will change in this coming season because of
all the new fans and all the attention that you
all received this past season. Do you think the officiating
will change.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Grassing the wrong person? I hope the entire officiating crew changes.
Grassing the wrong girl, Carrie. I hope yes.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Vote can tell me why I see the right person.
I'm glad. That's honest, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I think everyone across the board, no matter which team
you played for in the WNBA, no matter who you
were a fan of. Like, the refereing was abysmal this year.
Like it's really bad. It's just really inconsistent. And whether
you let us play physically or not physically, I just
wanted to be consistent throughout the whole game.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Throughout the whole year would be awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
But if I could just get throughout the whole game,
I'll take it. And so you know, I think everybody
had a complain about that. And with again a growing
business and we are getting more money, more funding, we're
like becoming more and more of a top league.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Is what we want. We have to have consistent, reliable referering,
and so I hope that that is something that changes.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I think I'm asking the right person only because when
you played in the finals this year and it was
the Liberty taking on the Links, and I said this
to you in person and off camera. You were twenty
twenty four WNBA Defensive Player of the Year, You received
MVP honors after you guys won a Commissioner's Cup. I
will tell you this was your season, this was your year.
(28:03):
You and you'll have more. But for those who it
just came as new fans and people who maybe have
forgotten you, You has cemented your place as one of
the greats. And when you all played in that finals game,
many people afterwards criticize the officiating. Your coach did not
hold back and she was like, I'm taking this out.
(28:23):
I do not care. This was unfair and I'm and
you all were sitting there like yes, go and yeah
tell her, and I want I want to know how
does because I'm not a professional athlete, how does one
walk away from a loss like that without feeling How
long does it take to get over that? Or do
you ever get over that?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I think it's definitely something that will stay with me forever.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
But I think just like not letting it, you know,
impact you for the next year as in a bad way,
I think I should use it as motivation where okay,
let's not put ourselves in that situation again where the
game is that close, where is decided by the referees,
like thanks yields one by twenty, you know, where there's
nothing that can happen with the referees. So I think
it just gives you motivation in that way to come
(29:07):
back even better. And so that you're not relying on
people outside of your team to decide the game.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
That's by the way right at tattoo. Do you see
why she's good at what she does? Do you see
why she's the all around team player? Like she's like,
let's do this team last, but not least, and I'm
gonna let you guys you get ready to finish up
your holiday shopping and whatnot and your last minute deals.
Do you feel like the WNBA, more specifically, what you
(29:36):
are creating will be a place that will ultimately reach
the level of attention, the lucrativeness. I don't want to
make sure I get the right words where men and
women who play the same sport will have equal salaries.
You ever think there will be a time? I remember
Candice Parker tweeting this. She's like, I hope a time comes,
(29:58):
or I can say I'm turning down thirty four million
a year. It won't be for me, but maybe for
my daughter, hopefully when my daughter is playing like she was,
just like, I hope the time comes. Do you ever
believe that's that's in the future for the WNBA?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
I do?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I mean, because I think the demand is there, you know,
and I think that the way that we play is
different than men's sports. I also don't really like the
comparison so much because I think we play a different
basketball game than the NBA. I think ours is a
lot more technical. I think Ours a lot more I
think just pure to the game of basketball. Their's just
really fun to watch. They're super athletic, they're dunky all
over the place. But I think ours is more of
(30:33):
a pure, like just more pure of the sport. And
so I think you can be a fan of both.
And I think always trying to put us against each other,
like you love the NBA or you love the WNBA,
I think is the wrong approach because it's two different
forms of basketball. You can still have five on five
and three on three. It's two different forms of basketball.
And so I do think we'll get there, just because
(30:55):
I think when we start figuring that out, figuring out
what we need to do to market, to write crowds
and to get people in, to give us the access
that people are wanting from us, you know, on TV
and all those things, I think we will get there, hopefully.
I don't know if it'll be in my lifetime either, playing,
but I think one day.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
We will rival picks off Friday, January seventeenth. Tune in
on TNT to watch a game, or you can go
check the ladies out. They play in Miami and the
season ends in March. Tickets are available everywhere. Hope you
enjoyed this edition of Naked Huge shout out Tonfisa Collier
and Breonna Stewart for doing something that is quite literally
(31:37):
history making and for the benefit of all the players
and women's professional sports. Good luck with this new adventure
and y'all make sure y'all support Naked Sports. Written and
executive produced by me Carry Champion, produced by Jock VI's
Thomas Sound Design, and mastered by Dwayne Crawford. Associate producer
(31:58):
Olabusayo Shabby. Naked Sports is a part of the Black
Effect podcast network in iHeartMedia
Welcome to Naked Sports, the podcast where we live at
the intersection of sports, politics, and culture. Our purpose reveal
the common threads that bind them all.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
So what's happening in women's basketball right now is what
we've been trying.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
To get to for almost thirty years.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
From the stadiums where athletes break barriers and set records,
Kamen Quark broke the all time single game assists record.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
This is crazy for rookies to be doing.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
To the polls where history is written, and now we
have Kamala Harrison. It feels more like women are sort
of taking what they've always deserved, as opposed to waiting
on somebody to give them what they deserve. Our discussions
will uncover the vital connections between these realms and the
community we create. In each episode, we'll sit down with athletes,
(00:48):
political analysts, and culture critics because at the core of
it all, how we see one issue shines the light
on all others. Welcome to Naked Sports. I'm your home
host carry Champion.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
My name is Nafisa Collier and I play in Unrivaled
and the DUBNBA for the Minnesota Leagues.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Listen carefully because Nafisa Collier just casually identified herself with history.
Not only is she a player in the WNBA, but
she's also part owner, founder, and player in Unrivaled. It's
a league built in collaboration with some of the biggest
stars in women's basketball Brittany Griner, Skyler Diggins, Angel Rees,
(01:31):
and Sabrina Unescue, just to name a few. Unrivaled will
start its inaugural season this new year, January twenty twenty five.
It's an innovative three on three professional women's basketball league
founded by US Olympians Nafisa Collier and Breonna Stewart. The
league will feature six teams with six players on each team.
(01:52):
It's also setting your record for the highest average salaries
in women's sports history. That according to all reports and
from Unrivaled as well. All thirty six initial players will
receive equity ownership. Well. According to a senior Administration official,
Britney Rener is free after two hundred and ninety four
days in Russian captivity. Britney Griner's captivity in Russia highlighted
(02:15):
the inequities and professional women's basketball, a few of the
main concerns since its inception in nineteen ninety seven. Women's salary,
women who must play overseas to make a better living
and create a solid future for after basketball. So Unrivaled
will attempt to be a solution for all of these problems.
I had an opportunity to catch up just before the
(02:36):
holidays and again a month away from the season start.
So Unrivaled three on three basketball starts in January. It's
inaugural season. Please talk to me about what three on
three basketball is, just the basics. We normally know what
we see in the WNBA. What is three on three basketball?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
So for our three on three basketball, we actually have
two baskets, just like normal five on five, and we
wanted to like, it's going to be exactly like five
on five, the same rules as the WNBA, but we
wanted to give more space to the players because the
premise is we have the best players in the world here.
And so I've heard the WNBA a lot of times
be compared to like the NBA of the eighties just
(03:17):
really bogged down the paint, really physical, and so we
took two people from each team off, so it's three
on three and it just gives you more space to
create more space to see these amazing players' skills a
little bit faster paced. So I think it's gonna be
like highly entertaining for many reasons, because it's gonna be
really fast, and because you get to see all these
amazing players.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Now, when you say amazing players, it was almost as
if when you had announced that this league was coming unrivaled,
can you tell me the inception, Like where was this
idea born and how did it come to life?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I think just like being in the league for several
years at that point, you kind of just see what
is working really well and where the holes are. And
I think one of them was you know a lot
of players are having to go overseas and so you're
seeing like a lot of injuries through that, you see
people missing time at home for the holidays and with
their families.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
And a huge one is we make most of our money.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
A lot of people don't know this off the court,
like we make the least amount of money almost on
the court, and so brand building is the most important
aspect of our job. You have to be able to
build your brand in order to activate with you know,
if you want to get like a deal with Nike
or with you know, a drink or whatever, it is,
and when you go overseas, you kind of go dark
for six months, you're not able to activate with brands,
(04:33):
you're not able to grow your own brand, and so
kind of through all that we came up with unrivaled.
And then another huge thing is the sport is just
absolutely exploding. I think that was really apparent this year.
We have been in the works for two and a
half years now, so we just kind of came in
at the there's just perfect timing for.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Us, but you can see it exploding.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It feels like everyone except for the people who are
putting the products out there, are you know, capitalizing off
of that. And so we wanted to create generational wealth
for these athletes who are the ones like putting in
this work. And so we're super proud that every athlete
has equity in the league as well.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Everyone involved in this league should be proud. Each player,
according to reports, start somewhere between two hundred and two
hundred and fifty k, give or take a few thousand.
The concept was an idea she and her husband Alex,
an entrepreneur and also a well respected trainer in our sport,
talked about some time ago.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So originally it started with like Alex and I talking
at home about it, and then in the very very beginning,
we're like, Okay, if we're going to do this, we
needed to be the best players because you in order
to have a successful product, you have to have the
best players. I just really believe that you any league
that started, you have to have the best people.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
So, like, Okay, who's one of the best players in
the world.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Obviously Stuwie is one of the best players in the world,
and so we went to her really early when it
was like just in its inception, We're like, we have
this idea.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Do you want to be a part of it with us?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
And so, you know, she said yes, and then it
started to grow from there where we started to really
flush things out and so yeah, that's that's kind of
like the beginning of it.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
That's amazing. That really truly is amazing. And here it is.
You have just about every single superstar. There's so many
superstars a the WNBA. First of all, let me just
not single out just the many that are playing for unrival.
You say every single player has equity, how much money
or how much equity they have? What is the percentage?
Does it vary depending on the player and their contract.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
It does vary on the player, varies on if you've
signed for multiple years. Some people are on one year,
some people are on a two or three. So that's
kind of how that was based.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Okay, all right, So then I if you want to
if the concept is to raise generational wealth, can you
think of another league that's doing what you all are
doing giving the player the actual equity.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I don't any leaks.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, I don't know if any league that has equity
with players that are currently playing.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I think you're the only ones.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, I'm i And I mean i'd have to do
the research on that, but I'm really cur I am
very confused because I'm thinking you all might.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Be live golf. Maybe I don't.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Know, Yes, yeah, maybe maybe. But you're in rare air
and this, this blueprint now has put you in a
position where not only are you a quote unquote employee
at the WNBA, but now you're a boss with unrivaled
How does that transition feel? What have you learned as
a player being a player now that you're a boss.
And then I'll ask the question in reverse, obviously.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I think just I mean, it's a whole different world
and you just you don't get it if you're a player.
Like the logistics bind everything, I mean, creating a whole
entire league, like just everything that goes into you don't
know what, you don't know until you get there. We're
really fortunate to have like the best of the best.
We really were really intentional about going out and getting
those people so that we are great in our lanes.
(07:43):
You know, we're gonna stay in our lanes. We need
to get people who are good in their lanes. We're
not trying to be the best everything. We're trying to
get people who are the best in their respective fields
so that we can make a whole, you know, united
best product. And so I think we did a really
great job of doing that. But I think what I
learned is just the business. You know, as players, you're
always asking for more money, and that is our number
one goal is to give players more money.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
But I think just learning the logistics behind it was
a lot different.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
When you say the goal as players is to give
more money, and that's all we ever hear, pay these
women more money. We want more money. The salary disparity
is huge now that you are on the receiving end,
of people saying want more money. Do you understand why
certain women are excuse me, why the women of the
WNBA aren't paid as much as that's still outrageous to you.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
I think we have a really good business plan.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
You know, we were able to create our own business
model which allows us to pay players as much money.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
There's a lot of reasons why the w can't. I
think we do.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
We still can get more money in the WNBA, but
they are handcuffed by a lot of things, Like you know,
the NBA owns a lart I think the majority of
the WNBA and just you know, it's been running for
a long time in a time where women's sports wasn't
as popular. We came in at a time where we
could capitalize off of that and we can play pay
the players accordingly to what you know, our market value is.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
So I think our business plan is just really good.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
And I mean, you know, and I don't have real
insight into W's business plan, but I feel really confident
in ours.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Well. Also, you saw what they did and you were
able to do things differently improve on where the lack is.
And that's not a disrespectful thing. That's why there's always
a first so that you can improve on the second
and the third and the fourth. I'm curious as to
what the average salary is for each player in unrival.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
We are really proud of what we've been able to make.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, I mean yeah, I think just really proud, like
this is what we wanted. We want to lift the game,
and I really think that, you know, high tide lifts
all boats. We are here to supplement the WNBA. We
by building these players up a build the WNBA and
vice versa. When they're built in the w it will
build us. Same with overseas. We're seeing people get a
lot higher contracts overseas and in other leagues, you know,
(09:49):
other off season leagues, the contracts are growing. So I
think just the entire market. That's what we're trying to
do is lift all, like all areas of our sport.
And so I think just that we're super proud to
able to have you accomplished that without even playing it.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
That's a true team approach, that is true. We are
a team a response, you are all we all got
to we in this together. So it says average Unrivaled
salary to twenty two WNBA two fourteen and it's eight weeks. Okay,
we got it right here, thank you, all right, eight
weeks put it in. We got the researcher on the line. Okay.
So so in two months, in two months, because that's
(10:24):
eight weeks in two months. My math is amazing. You
all are going to be able to give these players
their max salary that they would make if they had
been a tenured player in the WNBA, according to this
new business plan. So what you're proving is that the
(10:45):
money is there and available if you create the actual
conduit the vehicle to do so. Moving forward, what would
you like Unrivaled to be in your greatest wildest dreams?
What does unrivaled become?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
I honestly feel like the sky's a limit, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I think when you have the best players behind you,
you can do anything. You know, I hope we do expanding,
you know, selling off to different cities for different teams.
You know, we're traveling, We're going on the road for
different tour stops in the next couple of years.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
When we returned, Defisa talks about the good and the
bad growing pains of the WNBA back in a moment,
do you mind telling us a little bit about what
we are witnessing. I watched you on Sixty Minutes when
they were talking about the rise of the WNBA, and
(11:42):
you talked about a world that you have lived in
in real time when you first got to the league
and what it is like now. Tell me, tell me
the difference from when you graduated from Yukon and you
were a rookie in this league and then how it
feels now in terms of travel, respect, notoriety, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
It's way different.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
And it's crazy to say that because I mean, I
came in six years ago. It's not like it's been
decades like change usually happened so slowly when.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I came in. I mean, of course the w's on
the rides every year is on the rise. But I
think just with.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
The explosion of social media in the college game, I
really think, honestly, the catalyst was when you know, they
put those videos out of the weight room at the
Final four and everybody was outraged about how different it
was from the men's to the women's. For me, that
is when it feels like it exploded, like where everybody
started paying attention, not just like diehard fans of women's sports.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
And then you had the bubble.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
That happened, which added to that where we were on
the only sports on TV, so you had no choice
but to watch us. Something we've been saying for years
is if you just put us on TV, people will watch.
And so we were finally put on TV and we
gained a following there, and then you have again the
explosion of these people in college where they're bringing their
fan bases and it just compiles on and to see that.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Happening so so quickly, it's just been so fun.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And to be able to like have any part of
that at all, to be able to play in that time,
it was just like it's just been incredible to watch.
And I think it's just so it's so it's just
a really cool experience to see something growing that you
feel really passionate about, like coming to life and everything
that people who.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Are been in women's sports have been saying.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Finally can be like, see, we told you so, we
were right, and like that feeling is always great.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yeah, it definitely isn't and I told you so feeling.
I was talking to one of the players and I
think they when they were playing the Liberty. She was
saying the difference between the hotel they would have had
two years ago versus the hotel they have now when
they come to New York is night and day, and
the theater.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
We are playing in and now we're there at Barclays, Like.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, like you literally the beginning of what they had
for at the Liberty and here you are packed out
in Barclays arguably better games than the Nets, not even
arguably if I'm being honest with you, and you are,
you're seeing an entire new fan base. Now. I don't
think that this. I think that this has exactly what
it takes to last. I don't think some people critics
(14:02):
will say, I don't know how long this can last.
But I feel as if the maturation process the twenty
five plus years is right around when the now NBA
started to find its legs and you could see who
these players were. It's not necessarily par for part, but
it is very similar that it does need this transition period.
You need that one or two or you need that thing.
(14:24):
And you're absolutely right about that video because I think
everyone was like, is this what's happening? How unfair? How
blatantly unfair? And I always said this about women. When
you play basketball, you play it because you love it.
You don't do it for the money. You definitely don't
do it for the fame, And to see a time
now where you guys are doing getting it for those
(14:45):
reasons plus just the pure love. Do you still think
you'd still play this game until you couldn't play anymore
if you didn't have this type of access in terms
of new resources and new money.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Absolutely, I mean sports are just a part of me,
you know.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
It's just like in my DNA and I honestly I
still don't play for those things. Like, yes, obviously it's
really nice that you don't have to play overseas or
do other things in order to be able to do
this thing that you love. But like, how how fortunate
are we that we do get to play something that
we love? And when I'm done playing, there are very
few games that I'll actually remember, but I'm always gonna
(15:23):
remember the bonds that I've made with these people that
I've played with. I mean, several girls that I went
to college with were bridesmaids in my wedding. You know,
people on my link seeing were bridesmaids in my wedding.
Just the relationships that you form with people, the experiences
that you get the different countries, have been able to
go to the different people from all different cultures and backgrounds,
and you know, everything that.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I've gotten through the sport. I didn't do that for
money or fame.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
I did it for the experience and because I love
playing basketball, So I absolutely it'd still I would still
play even if you know it wasn't growing the way
it is now.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
So of course with all the growing pains, there are adjustments.
Piece of shares what could be the next trend in
college sports, We'll be right back. So if you are
familiar with college sports, you know that NIL has changed
the game. Women specifically in college sports, make more money
(16:18):
than women in the pros and that could change the
dynamic of the league and years to come. Do you
ever fear that it will change? And by fear, I
mean not in a bad way, but like the motives
for why some of the women play the sport will change.
Do you feel like that's on the horizon.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
No, I honestly fear more for college than I do
for professional sports, because like professional sports, I think that's
the nature of the game, like you are playing for money,
but in college I feel like NIL is taking that away,
Like I think college just takes one of the times
where you're supposed to, you know, find who you are
in experience life, and create that fond with.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
People that you're playing for for four years.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
I think turning that into a professional sport by having
people like sign one year contracts with NIL, I think
I'm a little bit sad about that for them, and
I also such a great thing.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
I just think they need to hone it in. But
I'm not really worried about the professional game as much.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
It's interesting you bring that up because we've been saying
that it's definitely the wild wild West. We're starting to
see players sue certain schools for not giving them the money,
or certain you know, entities that are not giving them
the money they promised, or just refusing to play it is.
It's becoming a different it's a different world. This is
why you see different coaches leaving. You come from royalty
when it comes to college basketball, more specifically women's college
(17:38):
basketball at Yukon. Do you feel it's interesting to me
because I don't hear so much about NIL and the
money at Yukon like I do at other programs. Is
it because of the respect that people have for Junium
and that program or is that not something you believe
he adheres too because he's still very much an old
(17:58):
school coach.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Yeah, I think it's both.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I mean he they're in a position where they've built
up the name of Yukon for forty years. We're just
the forty year you know, anniversary, and so people you.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Don't go there for the money.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
You go there because it's Yukon, you know, and you
go there to play for those coaches. So I think
that hasn't like maintained its integrity a little bit. And
I'm sure there's other programs like that too, but you know,
when you it's a new program and you got new
coaches and they haven't built that, like you have to
bring other things in, which now is money and whatever
else it is. So yeah, I think coaches, I think,
(18:37):
And he'sn't like you said, he's old school. You know,
we weren't allowed to like our fingernails or have colored
hair like that when I was there. Like, they do
things a certain way and it's worked for them for
a really long time. And they recruit a certain player. Also,
they're not going to try to get a player that's
asking them for all this money, because that's not the way.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
They do it there.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, they want you to do it for the love
in IL is going to be really interesting. I do believe, though,
to your point earlier about the fan bases that are
following these players. We saw what happened with Kaitlyn Clark,
we saw what happened with Angel Reese. Their fan bases
followed them to the league. And I think that most recently,
and you were asked about this in that sixty minute special,
(19:16):
most recently, Kitlyn Clark had acknowledged her what she calls
her white privilege and how she wanted to make sure
that she acknowledged all of the players who built this
league before she came, and there was a lot of
pushback Caitlyn Clark. Do you feel is one of the
main reasons why people are paying attention to college mean,
excuse me, to women's basketball now?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Yeah, And I don't think that should be something that's debated.
Like she did bring in a really big fan base.
I think the argument comes in when people are saying,
like she is the WNBA or she built the DUBNBA.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Well, that's not true. We've had it for a really
long time.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
You've had amazing like Hall of Fame players that have
built this every step of the way.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
We've never had an explosion like this.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
We've never had the exposure like this, like just the
access to the players.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
It's never more than it is now.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And so you weren't able to see these amazing players
that are long retired, you know, who have built it
before then, and even starts in the league now who
were here before this rookie class came in, have built
this league. And so one hundred percent, they did bring
a lot of fans, but also we had a growing
fan base. But I think you no question they accelerated it.
(20:25):
But I think that they do, Like I don't think
that's something that should be debated. I think it's pretty
obvious if they did accelerated it. But the product was
already there. I think we already had amazing players, and
that's what you need to do to grow a business.
You need to add more amazing players, which is what
we did.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
It's the yes and of it all. Yes, and this
league was already great. And the reason why she was
inspired to play in the league is because she saw
other women play in the league who also happened to
be black or black women who were killing it, and
she was like, I want to be able to do this.
This is the the issue that I think people have
(21:01):
is that the WNBA was such an exclusive club for
so long. You know, it felt like a very exclusive
group of people with an exclusive club, and you're not
invited to the party, and if you want to come, great,
we'll welcome you in. And then all of a sudden,
all these people got in line and a club got
real crowded, and then everybody was like, wait a second,
you are you in the club now? So I think
(21:23):
there's a growing and adjustment period that the league is
experiencing right now with its fan base. How would you
describe this growing and or adjustment period with this new
fan base and the existing WNBA fans.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I think there are definitely growing pains, just like with anything,
you know, but I think it's good and bad.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Like there's no room for hate.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
In our league, no room for you know, like homophobia
or racism or any of those things.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
But the ignorance. You can't be too mad at people.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
They they're new, Like they're new people and to have
something grow this is what we been asking for. We
want more people to watch us. Well, they're not going
to know everything when they first come in. You know
they're going to come in for one player, sure, but
then they fall in love with other players are they
fall them with love with other teams, and they're learning more.
When you're new to something, you're not going to know
everything about it right away, and that might be frustrating
(22:16):
for the people who are already here who knew we
had something great. But we do have something great, and
we want it to grow. We don't want to keep
it to ourselves. And so I think that's kind of
been like the adjustment period. Again, it's a lot different
when you get into like the toxicity of some of
the things that were happening this year, but as far
as like the casual fan coming in, and I think
it's great for the game, the discourse around it. When
(22:37):
people are arguing, you're still talking about it. You know,
whether you love this player, hate this player, you're still
talking about it. Whoever you're cheering for, whatever it is.
So I actually think that the casual fan you need
that in.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
A growing business, you there is nothing And I forgive me,
and I hope you understand when I say this rivalry
competition all the things sports are made of needed, so
you should be able to have that when people I
have when we did a series on Caitlin Clark versus
angel Rees, and it was just about the rivalry and
(23:09):
why it's so amazing. My hope is that women are
allowed to compete as athletes period, no gender assigned, but
just as athletes. I've noticed so much sensitivity around the idea,
especially coming from new fans, of how women should compete.
What do you think that expectation is? What do you
(23:30):
think they're coming to see when women play basketball?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
The new fans who thinks that we are that are
too sensitive, Oh because they're so physical?
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Correct? No?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I mean maybe it's.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Just like a social bias that women aren't physical and
we should be like danty and stuff. But it's hard
for me because I've been in sports my whole life,
so I've never seen that, you know, like I've only
ever been aggressive, but I've only ever been around aggressive people,
So it's kind of hard for me to like see
the side they're coming from.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
But I hope they know now, like where about choke,
like find the death to win? We are competitors.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
It doesn't matter our gender, like we want to win,
just like anybody who's competitive. We're out there too for
a common goal with our teammates and we're going to
do whatever canada or achieve it.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
I think it's bizarre because they're like, wait, they're so
physical with how they're playing, and I'm like, wait, do
you say that when you watch the NBA?
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I think you know what it is. The NBA is
not that physical. We are anymore. So, Yeah, you're only
used to watching that.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
We I think our game is more physical, especially in
the first half of this WNBA season.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
There's like a technical every game. We were throwing punches
every game.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Wait, so listen, do you you think women are more
physical than men?
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Really?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Because it is? And well is there any assignment to that?
Why is that? Why is the woman's game more physical
in the men's game?
Speaker 3 (24:47):
In your opinion, I think they're refereeing. They were like
letting us.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
And again, when you put like a bunch of competitive
people around, emotions are so high. When you're playing, you're
physically and mentally exhausted, you know, and people are push
you the whole time. You're gonna get testy. And if
you're allowed to be like that, it's going to escalate.
So it's the referees job to keep that under the control.
And that's why I was saying, we've been compared to
the NBA of the eighties a lot. Especially have you
(25:12):
seen the Michael Jordan documentary The Last Dance where they're
just like tackling.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Him mad air.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
You know, we're not doing that, but the referees allowed that,
and so it was that's what happened. And then they
cleaned up the game. And you know, now it's like
TIGGI Tech foules whole time in the NBA, but we're
still allowed to be more physical, and so that's what
that's what we are.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
And and I do believe that makes the game more
exciting because people will tell you that the the NBA,
obviously the bad boy Pistons that you refer to when
they were beating up Michael Jordan, the NBA of yesteryear
is considered you know, let some let anybody tell you
those are the good times. Charles Barkley, you have many
fights that we've seen him in, and I mean literally
physical fights, like two piece in a biscuit fights, And
(25:55):
I just used to be like, that's not happening. You're
absolutely right. That's not happening in the NBA, are you.
I always reference when they talk about Caitlin Clark being
physically pushed around our reference. Do you remember the Do
you remember the canvas Parker her rookie years? You remember that? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:08):
You remember people?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
She was Pearson, she was my assistant coach when I
first came into the Links.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Oh do you know that? Like they there was no
love lost like and it was very clear and in
my mind, I think people appreciate that and want to
see that. So if you're telling me that the w
NBA is more physical, which I'm just blown away by
right now, because now that you think about it, that
makes it. It makes it so, It makes it so
(26:36):
clear why people are so sensitive. Do you think that
the referees will change in this coming season because of
all the new fans and all the attention that you
all received this past season. Do you think the officiating
will change.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Grassing the wrong person? I hope the entire officiating crew changes.
Grassing the wrong girl, Carrie. I hope yes.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Vote can tell me why I see the right person.
I'm glad. That's honest, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I think everyone across the board, no matter which team
you played for in the WNBA, no matter who you
were a fan of. Like, the refereing was abysmal this year.
Like it's really bad. It's just really inconsistent. And whether
you let us play physically or not physically, I just
wanted to be consistent throughout the whole game.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
Throughout the whole year would be awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
But if I could just get throughout the whole game,
I'll take it. And so you know, I think everybody
had a complain about that. And with again a growing
business and we are getting more money, more funding, we're
like becoming more and more of a top league.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Is what we want. We have to have consistent, reliable referering,
and so I hope that that is something that changes.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I think I'm asking the right person only because when
you played in the finals this year and it was
the Liberty taking on the Links, and I said this
to you in person and off camera. You were twenty
twenty four WNBA Defensive Player of the Year, You received
MVP honors after you guys won a Commissioner's Cup. I
will tell you this was your season, this was your year.
(28:03):
You and you'll have more. But for those who it
just came as new fans and people who maybe have
forgotten you, You has cemented your place as one of
the greats. And when you all played in that finals game,
many people afterwards criticize the officiating. Your coach did not
hold back and she was like, I'm taking this out.
(28:23):
I do not care. This was unfair and I'm and
you all were sitting there like yes, go and yeah
tell her, and I want I want to know how
does because I'm not a professional athlete, how does one
walk away from a loss like that without feeling How
long does it take to get over that? Or do
you ever get over that?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I think it's definitely something that will stay with me forever.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
But I think just like not letting it, you know,
impact you for the next year as in a bad way,
I think I should use it as motivation where okay,
let's not put ourselves in that situation again where the
game is that close, where is decided by the referees,
like thanks yields one by twenty, you know, where there's
nothing that can happen with the referees. So I think
it just gives you motivation in that way to come
(29:07):
back even better. And so that you're not relying on
people outside of your team to decide the game.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
That's by the way right at tattoo. Do you see
why she's good at what she does? Do you see
why she's the all around team player? Like she's like,
let's do this team last, but not least, and I'm
gonna let you guys you get ready to finish up
your holiday shopping and whatnot and your last minute deals.
Do you feel like the WNBA, more specifically, what you
(29:36):
are creating will be a place that will ultimately reach
the level of attention, the lucrativeness. I don't want to
make sure I get the right words where men and
women who play the same sport will have equal salaries.
You ever think there will be a time? I remember
Candice Parker tweeting this. She's like, I hope a time comes,
(29:58):
or I can say I'm turning down thirty four million
a year. It won't be for me, but maybe for
my daughter, hopefully when my daughter is playing like she was,
just like, I hope the time comes. Do you ever
believe that's that's in the future for the WNBA?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
I do?
Speaker 2 (30:12):
I mean, because I think the demand is there, you know,
and I think that the way that we play is
different than men's sports. I also don't really like the
comparison so much because I think we play a different
basketball game than the NBA. I think ours is a
lot more technical. I think Ours a lot more I
think just pure to the game of basketball. Their's just
really fun to watch. They're super athletic, they're dunky all
over the place. But I think ours is more of
(30:33):
a pure, like just more pure of the sport. And
so I think you can be a fan of both.
And I think always trying to put us against each other,
like you love the NBA or you love the WNBA,
I think is the wrong approach because it's two different
forms of basketball. You can still have five on five
and three on three. It's two different forms of basketball.
And so I do think we'll get there, just because
(30:55):
I think when we start figuring that out, figuring out
what we need to do to market, to write crowds
and to get people in, to give us the access
that people are wanting from us, you know, on TV
and all those things, I think we will get there, hopefully.
I don't know if it'll be in my lifetime either, playing,
but I think one day.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
We will rival picks off Friday, January seventeenth. Tune in
on TNT to watch a game, or you can go
check the ladies out. They play in Miami and the
season ends in March. Tickets are available everywhere. Hope you
enjoyed this edition of Naked Huge shout out Tonfisa Collier
and Breonna Stewart for doing something that is quite literally
(31:37):
history making and for the benefit of all the players
and women's professional sports. Good luck with this new adventure
and y'all make sure y'all support Naked Sports. Written and
executive produced by me Carry Champion, produced by Jock VI's
Thomas Sound Design, and mastered by Dwayne Crawford. Associate producer
(31:58):
Olabusayo Shabby. Naked Sports is a part of the Black
Effect podcast network in iHeartMedia
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