ALI LEROI - A Masterclass

It’s not an agenda to tell black stories in our totality, it is simply innate.  Leroi’s creative objective is not necessarily to go outside of the box, but simply not to ignore everything that fills it. His resume speaks volumes, but he started as a stand-up comedian. He shares stories from those earlier years; meeting Chris Rock and how that relationship developed over time both personally and professionally.  Leroi breaks down the career trajectory of a comedian’s lifespan, and his process as a writer and as a Director/Jazz composer. LeRoi also shares his opinion on the unavoidable topic of his fellow Chi-town native, Kanye West. (Fortunately, we don’t end on that note). Creatives get your notepads ready, because there are some free nuggets of feedback courtesy of Mr. Leroi all throughout this episode.

Connect: @CariChampion @AliLeroi

Learn More: MrLeroi.com

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Kevin was doing the Real Husbands of Hollywood, and you
want chaos, get JB. Smooth and Nelly and you and
Kevin Harden, you know, and Dwayne Martin is there and
and Boris and they have a loose idea of what's
going to be said and JB. Smooth is amazing, but
you know, I can't trust JB to say the exact

(00:22):
same line the exact same way twice. So you know,
like you got to really kind of have a sense
of how you think this is supposed to work, and
you can't be afraid when it's you know, does what
it does. Could you imagine doing a special that way,
a comedy special and you just have to listen. You
don't know where to go, Well find out more. Ali

(00:45):
Leroy on the other side of the break, and you
know you can pass forward, but Mama got to pay
these bills. Naked coming up in just a few moments.
It's the greatest and then the same connective CHAPPI and

(01:07):
they carry champions to be champion, A champion, they carry champion, Champion,
they carry champion. They care chap can make it. Hey, everybody,
Welcome to another edition of Naked. Today's episode for me
was very educational. I I told you all, I'm embarking
on yet again another adventure, and I'm slaying these hosting jobs.

(01:30):
But I as someone who considers themselves a storyteller and
a creator. Uh, this next guest is by far someone
who can talk about the process to creative process. I
often try to have people in front of the camera
and behind the scenes so you can feel like you
understand what it takes to be successful. You can understand

(01:52):
what it takes to be a human for that matter,
right to be completely honest. And usually creatives do that.
They come with a lot of raw all honesty, and
our guest, Ali le Roy has done exactly that. Television producer, director, writer,
actor from the Shy joins us some of his most
notable work. Some of his most known work, let me

(02:14):
correct myself, could be with The Chris Rock Show. He
wrote a few episodes, was a supervising producer on that
show that was the HBO late night talk show. He
also directed episodes of Obviously what everyone knows is Everybody
Hates Chris Rock. And I just added to Chris Rock
because it's not actually called Everybody Hates Chris Rock, as

(02:34):
everybody hates Chris and he worked and created that with Chris,
and I thought that was something super special. Uh, you
guys know that changed and launched so many careers, Bernie
Max everyone And by the way, side note, Bernie Mac
was already hustling and winning. I want to put that in,
but it became quote unquote mainstream to know who he
was and and he's been introduced to the world in

(02:56):
that way. So Ali does a lot of wonderful work,
as you'll hear him talk about in the podcast. He
directed Rail Special, which is coming up on HBO as
comedy Special. Uh, he was a comedian himself. That's how
he met Chris Rock. His resume is is long, and
his work is impressive. And when you listen to him,

(03:17):
especially if you're a creative, this is a master class.
I don't care if you're not a writer, director, actor, producer,
just someone who likes to tell stories. He's giving us
a master class about the process, what it looks like
and what he does to get to the truth. And
you can tell by listening to him talk. He has
an incredible amount of empathy, extremely wise, and he lives

(03:38):
in a space that I don't know if I can
say that I live in quite yet as a creative,
but he he's dropping gems. I like to learn from folks.
That's why I have you on the podcast. We get
into the creative process, we get into people he has
worked with, namely Chris Rock. And we also talked about
Kanye because he's from the shot and he has a

(03:59):
very unique perspective. And it's not so much like, oh,
I don't want to hear about Kanye anymore. It's really
about the human experience and how Kanye isn't the only
person responsible for where he is right now in terms
of society, if you will, Canceling him in air quotes
are sitting him down. And I appreciate it because, um,

(04:22):
it's nuanced. It's not black or white, it's gray. I
live in the gray. So everyone, welcome to the podcast.
I'll leroy, you're growing to enjoy it. You're welcome. And
first off, thank you for joining me on Naked um
and and and researching and having you on the show.

(04:44):
There are a few things that I wanted to talk
to you about. The First thing about you that I'm
really curious about when I talk to creatives, and especially
creatives who have a directive to tell the black story
and this totality to see as far a humanity and
not just being black folks, um I just because we are,
but the totality of who we are UM As a creative,

(05:05):
every project that you take on is that is that
the main goal? Not every project, but when you get
that opportunity to tell our stories, how do you go in?
UM with what mindset? I mean literally that absolutely every
single time. And it doesn't necessarily present itself as an

(05:26):
agenda because I just think of it as a thing
that is an eight. I mean, we our whole people.
You know, we do have wildly varying experiences and perspectives,
and we have nuanced shadings and colors, and so regardless
of whether or not the project itself is uh, you know,
sort of action oriented in terms of, you know, what

(05:48):
it wants the viewer to think or to feel or
respond to or what have you, you know, my goal
is just always to present you know, Black people in
uh storytelling in ways that are just you know, more
complex and more nuanced, you know, from drama all the
way over to comedy. And you know, we have varying
degrees of success, but that's always the goal right to

(06:11):
to it's not even painting outside the box. It's just
going into the box and using all of the things
that are available to use in there. You know, I think,
and I don't know why, it's just now in the
advent of and it may have been happening for a
very long time, but I'm just now really starting to
see roles within the last few years, um, where we

(06:32):
are a person as opposed to a black person. I
think of Britain and that was something interesting to me
that Shawna decided to have the male lead character black
and a lot of the and it was just smart.
I was like, Yeah, why weren't we you act as
if we did not belong until just most recently and
we were as a culture alive and well and thriving

(06:54):
in different times. Um. I say all that to say,
your most and it's not most recent project, but you
did American Refugee and I and when I watched, I thought,
this is a family that just so happens to be black, right, Um.

(07:15):
You know, when I came into that, that that project,
and I've really enjoyed it. You know, I wish we uh,
you know, as always, you know, you always wish you
had this, or you wish you had that, you wishually
had something else. Um, were you filmed during the pandemic,
so you probably were limited right to what you could mean.
There were definitely challenges in terms of type of schedule
that we had, and you know, and the uh the
model of the production was something that presented, you know,

(07:37):
certain types of challenges. The Buck Melters, who wrote that
original script, um, you know, I was brought on board
to to direct, so I had some conversations with them initially.
You know, in that story, both families were white, and
the story took place you know, roughly in the Pacific Northwest,
and we actually had to shoot in the southeast, so

(08:00):
there's no Northwest landscapes in the southeast. So it's like, okay, uh,
if we're having a story about the collapse of society
that's happening in a physical place that resembles the southeast,
there should be some black people. So we went back
and forth about what the nature of those uh characters
could look like and what the dynamics could be. What
if this is a black person in his family could
be the husband and dads should have been the kid.

(08:21):
You know, we had all of those kind of conversations
and just kind of came out of this space where
you know, we created. But I thought was a very
strong balance of of a family that is, you know,
tossed into some incredible circumstances and have to you know, uh,
depend on their ingenuity and each other entrusted love to
you know, to get themselves through. So that that's what

(08:42):
the exercise was. It was beautiful. Um. Anyway, you guys
should watch it for the listening. Um. It was with Eric,
Eric Alexander and Derek what's Derek's last name is Escapes
right now, Derek Luke, I say, lamb, that's an actual athlete.
So Derek Luke and h and Erica Alexander. It's available,
you can rent it, you can buy it. It's everywhere.

(09:02):
It was an excellent piece of work. I'm not um
surprised because I think most people, if in the industry,
would know you from working with Chris Rock and creating
some of our narrating some of our great moments. You
worked on the Chris Rock Talk Show and then ultimately
Everybody Hates Chris and then ultimately an animated version coming Now.

(09:24):
I am curious about the relationship between you and Chris
Rock and how that was able to formulate. I couldn't
imagine um walking into a room and talking to someone
who I find to be an utter genius and and
having this immediate connection. Because people who commit in specifically
I think of him and Dave Chappelle, they think differently.

(09:45):
They're just on a whole another stratosphere. And where in
the way in which they move. Well, I don't know
if you know that I was a stand up for
a number of years. I didn't know that. Is that
how you met Chris? I met christahen I was gonna
stand up me. So you were doing stand up? It
met Chris in New York in uh like mid to

(10:06):
late eighties something like that. Uh, you know, and this
is before he broke you know, Chris was still doing
you know, late nights at the Gosh. I can't even remember.
You know, we had stand up New York back then.
We had Catcherrizing Star and Infolution Holds Club. I just
can't remember the name of it. Right, Was this before
Chris Rock stand up Spike Lee where he was a crackhead?

(10:26):
This is before then? Oh that before New Jack City. Yeah,
this is before New Jack City. Yeah, I met I
met broke Chris Rock. Let me for to tell you
like that, because I mean I didn't want to say
that I was gonna say something else. So we knew
we wrote Chris Rock. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's how long

(10:49):
I've known Chris. Uh yeah, I mean we met on
the club circuit. I was actually with a comedy group
at the time, and I'm from Chicago and one of
the things that you know, I guess we were and
you know, we we were doing that thing. Uh and
you know, Chris was certainly doing his thing, which was fantastic. Um.
But I think one of the things that he found
interesting about me was that I wasn't from New York, right,

(11:14):
So you know, he got on the train to come,
you know, to the to the comedy clubs in the city.
You know, I had to drive a car, you know,
eight hundred miles and then hope for the best of
all that stuff. Not that he didn't have those sorts
of experiences, So you know, I just think he thought
that particular thing was interesting. And then you know, you talk, right,
you know, you talk and you kind of start to

(11:35):
find out, you know, you're kind of interesting. You got
these ideas you know, here's the stuff that you like.
Here is what I like. Uh. The next big encounter
after meeting Chris that I would have with him was
I was on a comedy show. Uh. It was the
Miller Light Comedy Competition was a big deal back in
the day. And um, and and I was in that

(11:56):
competition on a big show in Chicago at the park
S Theater at the time, and uh, Chris was hosting
the show. And they were like, you know, four comedians,
you know, uh, buying for the final prize whatever. Chris
host that show, and you know, that was just another
one of these opportunities where you know, we got a
further chance to you know, just to connect and and hanging.

(12:17):
You know, over time we just kind of it's like, Okay,
you know I get his vibe. You know, he respects
what I do in terms of writing and where I
was coming from in terms of the humor, and and
then just life. You know, you're meeting smart black people,
you know, two smart black men who have these wildly
varying influences from you know, Woody Allen to the Marx
Brothers and and and Mighty Python. But then also you

(12:38):
know Mom's maybe and and Dick Gregory and it's exciting
to you know, to have those kind of conversations, you know. So, um, yeah, yeah,
that's how you all met. Yeah. I have a question
about comedians, and I have a question about that, about
the relationship that I find very fascinating. My one of

(12:59):
my really close friends for a long time, UM worked
at NBC and it was a part of their diversity
initiative to look for different comedians, and I would oftentimes
go with her to the comedy store here in l
A where I live. UM and I would see these comedians,
these up and coming comedians, and they would go on
stage and I didn't you know, I don't, I didn't
know the world. But when I see them years because

(13:19):
years later, because it takes twenty years to to be
the new hot thing, right you You're you're busting your
balls for ten years and then all of a sudden,
you pop and they're like you just popped on the scene.
You're like, now I've been I've been here. So it
was before um, Kevin Hart was Kevin Hart. Um, it
was before, you know. And may he rest in peace.

(13:40):
David Arnold was really known to a lot of people,
and I was always so fascinated and what was the
recipe for who I In terms of when is it
your time to pop as a comedian? I'm always fascinated
by that. Is it just time and opportunity? Well, I mean,

(14:01):
you know, there's a lot of variables, right, um, because
you know the time to pop the you know, when
you're naming three or four comedians out of the the
actual literal thousands that are available to pick from. You know,
even when you rise to the level of being you know,

(14:21):
a known entity, you know, headlining clubs, you know, traveling,
maybe making a few television appearances, like that's a that's
a really incredible plateau to reach where you're actually you know,
you have a vibrant, a live career as a stand
up comedian. That's your job. And if you don't do
anything else, if you don't do if you don't get

(14:43):
a sitcom, if you don't get in a movie, you know,
you'll still have a career, you still have a life.
So that's that's like the baseline of successful comedians, right
And I think David Arnold's is a fantastic example of that.
You know, he never necessarily, you know, broke through in
the biggest a but he had some really you know,
great successes. You know, he had a couple of specials.

(15:05):
You know, I know, he created a show, but his
visibility and and his name brand as a comedian, you know,
wasn't as big as you know, of course as a
David or or Kevin. But he's got a great life
and very successful. So that's one level of it. And
in a manner of speaking, even with that level of success,
he didn't pop correct that like that never happened, right,

(15:29):
But on the flip side, you have a you know,
you have a Gerad Carmichael, right, who is kind of
a young phenom, and so the pop happens early. Right, Oh,
there's a guy that's not doing what the other guys
are doing in the way that they're doing it. So
then it's kind of like all eyes on this sort
of unique figure. And to the extent that you know,

(15:52):
he had that moment where he you know, pops through
and burst into the you know, the vernacular in the
conversation about stand up and our creativity, he continued on
in a way that continued to explore that creativity. What
he just did with Rathaniel was amazing. And that's after
you know, like almost ten years of working in the

(16:15):
public eye and then getting to a point where you know,
now I'm actually doing something that you know that's going
to have a great impact because you know it's award
winning and it's attacking his material in a way. And
you know, just one more I just directed uh Little
Rel's HBO special which is uh, which is about to

(16:36):
hear thank you, and even Rel like Real's He's, He's, he's,
he's Uh. You know, he's a recurring figure in a
in a bunch of great movies. We've seen him. He
keeps popping up all over the place. He's had two specials,
He's been on a number of series. He's had his
own series. He was on The Car Michaels and rail

(16:57):
still hasn't popped. What does that mean? I said it,
But what does pop mean? It's the Chris Rock moment
that happens when he does, um bring the pain, right
when Chris does bring the pain. He's been you know,
he's he's been on a on a number of shows.
You know, he's been in the public eye. He's been

(17:18):
in some movies, he's done some things. But as they
stand up on that stage in that moment he comes
up with a piece that you know, like takes the
audience by storm, right, And we also weren't inundated with
quite as many comedians and quite as many you know,
outlets for comedy at the time, So you know, when

(17:39):
you got everybody's attention, just like the level that you're
working on is a is a higher level. But it's
not until bring the Pain that, uh, you know that
he does a routine which was the Niggers and Black
People routine, which just like you know, everybody's head goes
like this. After that in my metric, after that, Chris

(18:00):
Rock becomes a star. Yeah, but at this point he's
been in New jack City, he's been he's working, he's
done all this stuff, but he's not Chris Rock yet. Okay,
So even taking that, even out of the comedy realm,
what I do, how does how does who Pops? How
does stephen A become the biggest name in sports? How

(18:22):
does Oprah become Oprah? Like? And I'm just saying that
in theory because you've been working significantly for so long,
is what I'm getting as you're illustrating this to me,
and I'm like, no, you're right, Tony Roight for that matter, right,
or or or guy Tory who had you have a
moment and then you and then okay, I'm still known,

(18:44):
I'm still working and that's my full time job. But
what what then catapults you? Is it? Is it just destiny?
Is it meant to be? How would you describe the differences?
It's it's you're talking about a moment in time, right. Uh.
Certain performers meet these unique moments in time when what

(19:07):
they're doing and how they're doing it meets this moment
when what they're doing is just really refreshing, you know,
in the space that it lands, and it's also situated
so that the most people can access it at the
same time. Right, it's galvanizing their galvanizing moments. Uh. There

(19:31):
was a there was a woman who got really popular
during the pandemic of Sarah Cooper, comedian, and I remember
she was doing so It's like, Okay, there's this incredible
moment where this woman has a particular skill, right, she
has particular access to technology. Everybody's in the house, right,

(19:56):
and so you know, suddenly boom, all eyes make it.
You know, okay, we can all look at her at
the same time and then Sarah Cooper gets a career
and we have yet to see, you know, how that
plays out and what other things she's gonna do. I'm
sure she's gonna do some amazing things. But the pop
moment where I got everybody's attention, you can't take that back.
So Jeannie's out of the bottle leyout. I know who

(20:18):
I know exactly who she is, and even if I
don't know her name, I know exactly what she did.
And so I'm like, oh, that looks like Trump girl. Yeah,
I know her. Yeah, and fame. Fame has everything to
do with reach. Right. I don't know necessarily what you
do or I haven't necessarily seen you do it, but
I know who you are. Mm hmmm mmm. But if

(20:43):
if Rail, yeah, if Rail had a moment that's close
to popping is and get out when he plays Rod
the brother and he's got this amazing moment at the
end of the film. Not he's funny during the film
entire film, but he's got an amazing moment at the
end to the film that rel is stapled into black

(21:05):
iconography forever for having this moment in the film. We
know exactly who that is. What do you do when
you have that moment. How what I'm asking is when
Chris Rock in your metric, has his moment and and
bring the pain, how does he transition and hold onto
that and take it to the next level. Dave Chappelle's

(21:26):
moment would be arguably when he had his Comedy Central
show right, the Dave Chappelle's show, Right, and and I
start me bona fide disappears comes back. It's been bigger? Right?
How does that happen? How do you do? How do
how in your opinion, as a comedian, and I'm not
referring to any other occupation, you're able to take these

(21:49):
moments and amplify well two things. Uh One, you keep
doing what you've been doing, which is, you know, exercise
and working on your craft in the way that you're
because that's how you got to the place where you are.
But the other thing that occurs is that you garner
more trust. So suddenly the ideas that I that you

(22:14):
might have as a comedian in terms of how to
you know, scale your career. You know, whether it's film
or television or whatever the avenues you might go into. Um,
you know that's based on the type of ideas you
have right. So if you have good ideas, but what
was problematic before is that you couldn't necessarily get support
for them because they may have been unique or outside

(22:36):
the box. When you prove yourself on one stage, then
you get the opportunity to start slowly pushing and expanding
into other arenas. That's the Donald Glover story, right. So
Donald Glover has done sketches on YouTube. You know, he's done,
he's done music, but he came about in a slightly
different era because advances in technology allowed him to step

(23:00):
into the space without the ask, so to speak. He
could put sketches up on YouTube without calling YouTube and
asking them is it okay? Will you support this? Is
like now, just put it up there. Whatever you got,
you know, and if if you get eyeballs, you get eyeballs,
you know, but that's not our problem. That's up to you.
But he got eyeballs because he's talented and you know,
he's a great comic active but he's also a great

(23:21):
comedian and oh ship, he's a great musician. Oh wait,
wait wait wait, he can act, he can write, you
can do all these things. And so he was always
capable of that. But the trust and the support don't
always come until you make an impact that makes somebody think,
well maybe we should follow that guy. Okay, what I'm

(23:42):
hearing is that you have a moment where it registers
with everyone, and you didn't become for whatever the moment is.
You can put the even quantify the time whatever you want,
a month to months, three months, a summer, a pandemic, whatever.
Then now that you have that, you have to continue
in you to use the leverage that you have because

(24:02):
people now know you, and then you have to trust
or they have to trust you that you'll still take
that to the next level. All the ideas that you had,
all the creativity that you had, all of those things
that have been waiting that you've been waiting for. You're like, ah,
now I'm known. Let's push all this through. And the
talent then is separated from everyone else because everyone will

(24:23):
have their moment, their viral moment. But then that's when
we really know who will have the longevity, who will
have their time? Right. I mean I've worked with you know, um,
you know, work with Bernie Mac for a number of
years and Bernie Mac success didn't come until late um,
you know, even when he got on on deaf jam

(24:43):
Bernie had a moment that popped, right, Bernie popped. Yeah,
at the time when Bernie popps, Bernie has been doing
stand up of you know, fifteen years. That overnight success,
the overnight success. Then, because he's such a unique character
in the space of comedy, he runs into brick wall

(25:04):
after brick wall when people who don't necessarily appreciate who
he is, what he does, or how he does it,
they try to put him in a box and tailor
what he does to what they want. It's like, no, no, no, no,
that's not how this works, right, Bernie Max gotta be
Bernie Mack so until he gets to a space where
he's able to do that thing. You know. You know,

(25:25):
he keeps working now, he's selling out theaters and touring
and doing the whole thing. He's not you know, he's
not losing no money, you know, being a comic. But
the industry at large hasn't necessarily found a way, you know,
to embrace and execute something that works for him, because
that's what it's got to do. At the end of
the day, even if you enjoy it, it's got to

(25:46):
be something that I can sustain, I can't, you know,
the first Ellen sitcom can't sustain because she's being wholly
dishonest about the character that she's playing. And as a comedian,
dishonesty is the kiss death. Like I can't I can't
be funny, you know. I can get you some chuckles,
but I can't get you the realistic joke that you're

(26:08):
going to get because I'm lying to you about who
I am. Yeah, and that I think it's true for
my business. Authenticity, I think for anybody nowadays wins the day, right,
if you really want to be success. I mean, I'm
sure there are some phony secrets. So it does in
the space of storytelling and human interaction if you're talking
about the connection between people and items. Maybe not necessarily,

(26:30):
you know, but storytelling. I don't know what the story is, yeah,
you know, but storytelling and human interaction, Okay, I have
I have to believe when you're telling me, presenting characters
of stories, of jokes or whatever it is. You know,
I want to I want I'm looking for my reflection.
I'm looking for where I see myself. I'm looking for where,
you know, the experiences that I have are being shared. No,

(26:52):
that's how we, you know, come together. Whether it's around
you know, crying or laughing. You know, it's these intersections
where you go, oh yeah, I experienced that. And if
I didn't experience, can you presented to me in a
way that I can imagine myself in that scenario, right,
which is again the skill of a comedian, because comedians

(27:13):
don't get too uh tell you the joke and then
go you had to be there, No, my job is
to bring you there there all right, So I'm gonna
stop right there. I know you are on the edge
of your seat or you're driving in your car and
you're like, why Carrie, Why, Well, we gotta pay the bills.
A young lady has to pay the bills. Were back
in a moment, hit that pass forward but like two times,

(27:35):
and that's it. Every champion and carry champion is to
be a champion of Champion and carry champion and carry
chapian a champion and carry chappion and carry champions and
sports and entertaining connected work. Carry champion and carry champion

(27:55):
is to be a champion of Champion. They carry champion, Champion,
they carry Welcome back to naked at least here giving
us all the information we need to be successful. Creatives.
But more importantly, he gives me a lesson and empathy.

(28:15):
You talk about storytelling, um and and human interaction. You're
you are on everybody hates Chris Rock or everybody hates
Chris um and everyone. I mean, it's a hit. Did
you know you how to get right away? I mean
I knew I liked what we were doing, you know,
me and Christal looking at stuff, and you know, and

(28:37):
he's laughing, and you know, and and and liking the
way that we're going about telling the story and liking
the sorts of jokes that we're coming up with. And
you know, he's pulling stories from his past, and you know,
and to the extent that I'm able to, you know,
sprinkle my touch on certain characters and scenes and scenarios.
You know, we're doing what we feel good and what
we feel strongly about, right but we're coming from very
sort of specific places. Plus two of us have a relationship,

(28:59):
so that made you know, that may create the music
a little bit easier. But hit, you know, I mean,
you know it was it was good some people. But
some people feel like they know they have a hit.
I've heard this before. Some people like that got something
so good, that's about to pop that and then you
didn't know what did you feel good about? Um? I

(29:22):
feel good about being able to, you know, to be
funny and working with a guy that I love working with,
and and creating some characters that I thought were cool.
And you know, I'm um, I'm I'm not as uh.
I don't necessarily have that commercial sensibility. You know, certain
people think in terms of constructing it's like this is
gonna be a hit, and a lot of times it

(29:44):
can be very very correct. You know. I remember listening
to somebody to talk about a song by Tyler the Creator. Um,
I forget the one, but but he literally said that,
you know, he's writing this song with the intention of
this is the song long where at the concert people
are gonna wave the lighters back and forth. Like he

(30:04):
knows that before he even writes something, I want one
of those, right. So even in going into the construction,
he's trying to hit certain you know, uh marks and
certain types of emotions. The way the chords are constructed,
like just the exact feeling that I'm looking for as
opposed to what I think we were kind of doing
with Chris is going we're just expressing the ideas that

(30:27):
we have and then you know they're being responded to
in a particular way, and and it happens to to work,
and it happens to you know, to connect with people
and not to say that we couldn't be you know,
more intentional about attempting to do that. But again the
connection comes from you know, literally, like it's coming from

(30:49):
the heart, Like we're really in this. You know, I
see my mother, I I see my dad. You know,
he sees his mother's dad, and his little brother and
his sister. I know that block. I know what it's
like to not have this money, all of these things.
I oh, I think, uh oh. And that's just what
I'm taking away. This is my takeaway, UM, is this

(31:10):
being true to self doing something you enjoy, but definitely
being true being as a storyteller because I am a
storyteller as well, but just in a very different way.
I want to know what is the creative process for
you as a writer, as a director, as an actor,
as a comedian when you and I'll go back to
American Refugee you come onto the project and and I

(31:35):
think this is even particularly interesting for um my producers
Arquis because she is a writer and a director to
write like. I hear her creative spirit turning in here.
Um is there a routine? Is there a superstition? Athletes
like to wear the same socks if they keep winning? Right?

(31:57):
Is there something that you do when beginning every single
project that that makes you get into this creative space? Uh? No? Um? Well,
the first thing I do is nothing. What does that mean?

(32:20):
What does that? Just? Just my personal? Uh? You know,
And I might I might be lying, but I don't
think I am. Um. I think I'm lying, But I
don't think I am. I think I think that it's
mostly about for me. Um. You know, I gotta, I gotta.

(32:42):
I have something that I have to do, and I'm
thinking about it, and I'm thinking about it. I'm sessing
over what do I do about this? What do I
do about that? What do I do about this other thing?
What does this look like? What does that look like?
And it's all thought, it's all abstract. The most, the
single most important thing for me to do when I'm
beginning to write any project is after I get done
obsessing about, you know, all of these ideas and how

(33:04):
they can, cannot, might or might not work I'll sit
down at the computer and then it's those first few
words interior house day, and then you just start writing
down that people are doing stuff, you know. And and
once that happens, you know, once you crack that egg shale,

(33:25):
it's knowing it's never going back together again. So once
I break that shale of creativity, and I started to
kind of dive into that. Now when I sit down,
I don't have to start from scratch. I can pick
up from a moment. I can explore things. You know.
Sometimes I'm writing and I'll stop and I'll start, you know,
I'll start looking up something. I'll go into a deep
research dive, you know, trying to figure out what type

(33:47):
of shoes people wear, you know, when they're walking on
the snow, and where do you get those from? And
how does that inform story? And you just start going
off on all these tangents. But for me, it's the
that that time's been thinking about it. Then I gotta
sit down, put something on the page. And once I
put something on the page, that kind of opens up
the flood gates. And the second part of that is

(34:12):
you don't stop until you're done. Um that was a
thing early on I remember talking with John Ridley, who
I'm you know, if I could, if you know, if
if you if you said, okay, gun to your head.
You gotta trade careers with somebody, you know. I just
I love I love I love John's work. And one

(34:32):
of the things that that you know, we had a
conversation about early on is that he's very prolific as
a as a writer. Uh. But one of the things
you know, we discussed early on was that finish, you know,
don't once you start going forward, don't go backwards and
you know you're on page thirty five, don't go back
to page to trying to fix stuff. Just keep going

(34:54):
right because you gotta redo it anyway. And and the
more you work through it, it's almost like working on
your body when you're writing. You know, the ideas and
the language and the scenes and stuff starts to develop
as you're working through the piece. Right, So what I
had on page one, by the time I get to
page you know ten or fifteen or twenty or thirty

(35:15):
or whatever it is, the ideas are starting to develop, right,
And once they started to take some shape and they
started to get you know, like some contours, and that
starts to happen, right, just go all the way through
and finish it, and then you start go back. And
that's almost kind of like working on form, right, what
does that mean? As if you were an athlete working
like literal form? So so you know, like if you're

(35:37):
lifting weights, you might be doing your curls one way
and you're gonna get strong. But then when you're refining,
you start to isolate. You start to really be very
very specific about what you're putting into the work and
how you're constructing it. Are you doing these movements slow?
Do you twist risk this way to get this effect
or that way to get that effect? Those are all
things that you kind of put into the writing. You know,

(35:58):
once you have a foundation under your feet, then you
can start to explore ideas and you can start to
inform characters, come up with funny stuff, make decisions about, oh,
we need a funny moment in the film right now?
Makes sense? You know, makes sense? Now I'm doing the
tile of the Creator thing. I got the foundation. I
know what I'm trying to do, but at this moment,
I need this to happen. It makes perfect sense, perfect sense.

(36:20):
I understood that just perfectly. How do you do it?
You just talked about you are you did little Ls?
You directed his his his special That has to be
different than than writing an episode of Everybody Hates Chris.
It's incredibly different. Uh, And in this particular case, it
was it was, first of all, you know, I love

(36:42):
rel then you know, and he's a fantastic comedian and
his creative process is unique and so uh and decidedly
different than Chris. So, you know, I've worked with Chris before.
I haven't directed any specials, but you know, uh, you know,
he's done a number of them, and I've you know,
been with him alongside you know, some other great writers.

(37:05):
When Chris is performing and preparing one of his stand
up specials, he goes out on the road. He works
his material. You know, he'll bring a group of writers
and comedians out that he respects and things are funny,
and you know, we'll give him notes or ideas and
he'll take this idea and take that idea, you know,
and polish up around the edges. Chris is of his act,

(37:26):
but every now and again he gets one killer line
or one killer tag, or one great concept from one
of his you know, great comedian and writer friends, and
he'll integrate that material. But by the time you see
Chris's stand up special, yeah, I'm saying that he could
do it with his head cuff like like like he
knows what it is, you know, He's a well oiled

(37:49):
machine at that point. Rail on the other hand, for me,
was much more jazz like, right, Like he came into
his special with what I consider it's almost like like
a chord progression, right he said, he he knows, he
has this idea, he has that idea. He and these
are all you know, routines that he is, you know,

(38:10):
performed some version of at a point in time. But
the shows as we see them have not been rehearsed,
you know, from point A to point B. So when
I'm shooting them for him, like, I don't know what
he's about to do next because I haven't heard the material.
Why do you call it like jazz? Why do you

(38:32):
call it like jazz? What do you mean? Well, because
in jazz you have to listen. You have to listen.
Jazz as a conversation between the musicians, right, so what
the drummer and the bass player are doing in conjunction
with how the piano is For him, in the chords
and what is happening inside the melody. At that point
in time, you think that it's just this constructed piece
than anybody can sit down and play. But it's not,

(38:54):
and it's never going to be the same. If you
take four more musicians and give them the same chords
and tell them to play the same song, it's gonna
come out entirely different unless they just copy it. So
the jazz is I'm watching. I'm watching what he's doing
with his body. And if if you know, we shot
two particular shows that that the night that we shot Especial,

(39:16):
and so I get a peek at it the first show.
I have no idea what he's saying, by the way,
because I'm watching, right, I'm hearing him say words. I'm
watching his body and that's the conversation. So in this case,
the watching is the listening, so to speak. You know,
I know that he's about to do something based on
what he's doing with his body. I know that when
he walks back to this side of the stage, it's

(39:38):
gotta turn around and come back to the other side.
So I can anticipate some of his movements just based
on where he is on the stage right, and then
if he has certain ideas of certain physicality, I can
anticipate that he might do this or he might do that,
but I have to pay attention. There's no resting on
my laurels that oh he's about to do the bit

(40:01):
and he's going to talk about the puppy, So get
ready camera three to go to their own three to
one and bam. I can't do that. Literally, in the
middle of one of his shows, there's a wonderful Uh,
there's a whole riff and you'll see it. Rail goes
into a whole thing about Lean On Me the movie. Uh,
the big moment in the show really really funny, really

(40:23):
really great. He had no intention of doing it on
that night, but somebody yelled something when he was in
the middle of one routine and then he took a
detour into a whole other routine and that didn't only
happen on that one show, so you know, I was like, oh,
what the what's what's this? I don't like what's going

(40:44):
on here, But you don't get the panic. You gotta
stay in it. So yeah, you gotta listen, you gotta
hear where it's going, you gotta feel it. And you've
gotta be in tune with uh you know, with your
creative partners when this happening. And it's not different with
actors or anything else. I'm fascinated. I'm fascinated. I'm fascinated
by the jazz analogy. I am fascinated listening to you
say that you have to watch your watching. Rail is

(41:07):
listening as opposed to what it would be for someone else.
When I'm interviewing someone, I have to listen Otherwise I'm
not paying attention and I don't and I can't engage
and pick up on things. So I understand the listening
aspects slash watching for you with Rail? What I what
I'm curious about, though, God, I would be I would
be like if I'm used to directing in a way

(41:29):
in which I know what's coming, and I'm like, okay,
camera three, get ready, we gonna bring up camera three.
I would be so nervous if I had to watch
him in order to direct, because that the first time
that you've ever had to do that, or is it
something that you've dealt with before that's conditional? Yes, uh so,

(41:49):
Actually this is my first time shooting a stand up special. Um,
but I've done a lot of multicam directing work, but
in the creative space of the listening and the creating

(42:10):
on the moving train, you know, so to speak. Um,
I'm a fan of chaos, right, No, literally I am.
I'm I'm a huge fan of What I mean by
that is, um, I'll put it to you like like this, So, uh,
my favorite genre film is the heist movie, right, Roberts

(42:33):
get together going to rob a bank or a thing
or whatever it is. But to me, the best part
in the heist movie is when the plan falls apart
and everybody's gotta run. So when when that happened, it
just kind of speaks to this idea of that when
all of your plans go out the window, a right,
I mean right away but not read carry it's been nice,

(43:04):
I gotta go. So yeah, that that that moment when
when sort of all hell breaks loose, and and how
do you how do you maintain focus in that moment?
What's the most important thing to do? Like I kind
of I kind of love the creativity and and like

(43:25):
sort of that explosion of that moment, right, So I
just like that. It's kind of a high wire act
and it's kind of exciting. And all of your senses
kind of everything all turn everything on, like literally turn
every everything on. And so um, I had a different
experience with the same sort of thing I shot. Um.

(43:47):
Kevin was doing The Real Husbands of Hollywood last year
and I did a couple episodes with him, And you
want chaos, get JB. Smoove and Nelly and you know,
and Kevin Harden, you know, and Dwayne Martin is there
and and boris and they have a loose idea of
what's going to be said and j B. Smooth is amazing,

(44:10):
but you know, I can't trust JB to say the
exact same line the exact same way twice. So you know,
like you got to really kind of have a sense
of how you think this is supposed to work, and
you can't be afraid when it's you know, does what
it does? I think of curb your enthusiasm, Like if

(44:33):
you directed that, would that be very similar to go
it's whatever it is when it is what it is? Well,
what they have is uh yeah, I'm I'm really good
friends with Jeff Garland. We go way back to Chicago
and uh, you know, and Jeff is like, you know,
they get their bullet pointed outline the dialogue. It's not scripted,

(44:55):
although they know what the scenes are supposed to be, right,
and so you know to the that they play in
whatever way they go. But now again that's that's jazz,
because we go, here's what's supposed to happen in this scene,
and you know, we're gonna block it loosely in this
way and get some sort of parameters, and that's cord structure.

(45:15):
These are the lines that were painting inside or along
and then we you know, we dive in. You know,
I'm sure if you went and looked at you know,
two or three different cuts. I mean, I bet that
you could go into any Curb your Enthusiasm as an
episode and cut an entirely different episode of the same episode.
I bet you could. I bet you could, because in

(45:37):
jazz they have that they have the you know, they
got take number two, Take number three, same song, entirely
different performance. My mind is blown creatively. You said something
that I remember the first time I've ever heard it.
Michael Jackson when he was filming This is It, and
he passed away and it never ever really he wasn't
able to see its fruition. But the directors were like, Michael,

(45:59):
when do you think hit the third button and turn
here and moon walk and do that. And he was like,
I don't know when I feel it, just when I
feel it, when you feel it, fill it with me.
And the doctor was like, with British accent, okay, like
you could tell. Director was like, I don't know what
the hell this man is talking about, but he said
heel it, and that registered so deeply with me as

(46:21):
someone who is in front of the camera. I'm I
know when it's right, I feel it. I know when
I say it right. I know when the interview feels good.
And I was sold no one and I when I
quite frankly, so you're right, I also know that. So
I'm I mean, you try to say that, you're like,
this is this is some trash um. So when you

(46:41):
say you feel it, I am. I'm I'm a fan
of being inspired by creatives, and I'm inspired by this
moment because it truly is something that is instinctive, and
it truly separates they're super talented from those who are
somewhat talented. Just how you go about entrusting your instinct um.
I am a fan of chaos that you trust what
you trust what you feel. It sounds like you trust

(47:03):
in that moment what feels right, and there'sn't there's the exercise.
So here's the sports analogy for you. If Lebron James
is averaging twenties seven points, again, what that means is
some days he might hit fifty, some days he might

(47:26):
hit sixty. The other days he might you know, only
get ten points for some odd reason. But what you
can probably count on is twenty seven. Like that's his
base level of playing. If all the systems are functioning,
you're gonna get twenty seven points happen. Uh. And and
that is in whatever the circumstances of the competition are,

(47:49):
because that's the amount of training that he has his
you know, whatever the instincts are, he brings it to it,
whatever the practice is that he's brought to it. So
you know your ability in a moment, uh like reil
to have somebody yell out a thing which is not
a part of your performance, put that in your roller
decks and spit back out in a tenth of a second,

(48:12):
a whole routine that I had no intention of doing.
That's also not going to derail my path as I
try and make it to the end of the show,
because this was not a stop I plan to make.
So when I'm done with that, then I kind of
guide it back around to where I was before. And
I have a magic moment that occurred. But I also

(48:33):
have a skill set that allows me to to to
embrace the unexpected without fear because I know that I
have the ability to bring things back to where I
need them. I can reset in real time. Yeah, you'll
never even know what happened, and so that that's the

(48:56):
There's some instinct involved. But but you're but you're training
and your practice, your methodology, and your dedication to the
craft are what allow you to act on your instincts
with efficiency. I yo, I you're speaking my language. I
want to You're we're talking computer talk to one another,
whatever it is. Our computers are talking to one another.

(49:18):
You said something and I have to go back, and
it reminds me of something I saw that on your Instagram.
You're from Chicago. I am clearly well respected, working very
gainfully employed in this entertainment business. Opinions regarded your your
they love it what you do in your craft. You
just casually mentioned, you know, it's interesting. I directed a

(49:38):
few episodes of you know, Hollywood Husbands of Hollywood. Every
I don't know what is the name of the title
they have Hollywood Real Husbands of Hollywood. I had a
girlfriend who Angela, right was on there a couple of episodes.
Um shot Angela Ryan and Amazing. Because I'm a photographer.
Also I have I actually have a incredibly beautiful photo

(50:01):
of Angelo from behind the scenes. Uh that one day
I'll put up somewhere. Most of the most directors I
have met are beautiful photographers. I like people who really
enjoy that. I people the capturing of it all. But okay,
I digress. And then you mentioned little Well and we
obviously know you were Chris. So I'm listening to you
talk and talk and talk, and you say you're from Chicago,

(50:21):
and there's this creativeness that there's I almost feel like, well,
I mean, and I might be is everywhere, but when
I do meet people from Chicago who live in like
a J I V and they live in this world
are and there's just like this close knit group of y'all,
y'all like from the Shy and it's a gang and
can't nobody get in. I get it. But your thoughts

(50:46):
considering how where you are of our culture, how you
how you try to make sure you put black people
in a in a space where you see our humanity,
because we're not seeing as humans by and large. Sometimes
most times your thoughts on Kanye I mean and not

(51:08):
particularly complicated. UM, I have to believe that what he
has told us about himself is true. UM, all things
being equal, what I feel like I have experienced by

(51:30):
way of his his work and and his you know,
interactions with the public. Uh, I've always kind of felt
like he was a guy and maybe we didn't even
necessarily understand it before. UM. He may say or do
things that you know, in the creative space or are
groundbreaking and you know, in boundary pushing and in the

(51:52):
personal and human space, might be you know, offensive or outrageous.
But what I do believe about him is that he
does believe that what he's saying is true. And I
also believe that he does not have any desire to

(52:14):
to harm anyone emotionally, physically, or anything else. I do
believe that, Um, he is a person who has certain compromises.
You know, he has told us that he is bipolar,
and he has told us that he has issues around

(52:34):
you know, the medications that he's supposed to take and
to the extent that we accepted that is true, but
that we don't know the truth of how that plays
out in his life. All I would say is we
have a responsibility two trust what we have seen. Basically,

(52:58):
if you are a raging alcoholic, yeah, the last thing
I'm gonna give you is a drink. Right. I'm not
gonna bring you into a bar and ask you to
chill and hang out in there. And I'm not absolving
Kanye of anything, but I do believe that if the
damage that he has done has been by way of
the platforms that he's been given to speak on things

(53:18):
that we disagree in the way that he talks about them,
they quit giving him a microphone. Right. So, whether it's
you know, whether it is drink Champs or whether it's
Chucker Carlson or ABC or whoever else it is, you know,
that's it's not different. And I'm gonna say something that
I feel like it's kind of crazy here, but you know,

(53:39):
it's not different from a sexual assault in the sense
that if a woman is drunk, what we're saying is
that her ability to her judgment is compromised, and so
what we don't want is to put her in a
position of position where the decisions that she's going to
make or the things that she's going to do are
going to put her in danger. Because we understand that
she's compromised, right, we don't solve them wholly of being

(54:01):
in that space, because we go, well, you are an adult,
and you should have an idea of what the consequences
of your actions are. However, once you do the thing
that compromises your ability to make sound judgments, we take
that into consideration. So if I knew before you came
in the door that oh, here comes kindie, he's liable
to say something crazy. He says something crazy last week,

(54:22):
and you know he might say something crazy next week.
I'm gonna do a lot of things with you, but
I'm not gonna handle a microphone and go what do
you think? And so I'm gonna say, I'm just say
one last thing. As a black man, uh looking at
another black man who has reached some astounding creative you know,
heights as in business, you know, persona and everything else.

(54:46):
You know, I'm inhaviorative of of everything that he's done.
And I also have a great deal of concern for
the way um his health is being handled. Unfortunately, you know,
if he's not a billionaire. Now, there's still three hundred
million dollars in the bank, and it's hard to tell
a guy with three hundred million dollars what to do.

(55:07):
It's difficult. If we could do that, Michael Jackson would
still be alive. Hey, Mike, hold on, don't use propofile
to go to sleep. Why don't you exercise and drink tea? Yeah,
if anybody could stop him, and so, the amount of
power that comes with that amount of money is difficult
to stop a grown man from doing what he wants
to do. But I have empathy, I have concerned I

(55:29):
hope that he is able to find a way to
address his health. In front of our eyes. He's having
something that that that looks like incredible challenges with his
help and his ability to communicate his ideas. But it doesn't.

(55:50):
It doesn't absolve him though, correct. And but you're it
sounds like you're saying there are other people culpable in this.
If you put this man, you know he's clearly not well,
but yet you give him a microphone and you asked
him to talk. He is not singularly responsible for what
he has done. There are there are people who are

(56:12):
complicit their networks. There outlets that are competition. You can't invite.
You can't invite a person who is known to do
things in a particular way that tends to offend people.
In an episode where that's precisely what he's doing. You
invite him onto a platform. He does that, You get mad,
then you kick him off the platform because he did it.

(56:32):
I crashed the car into a wall before I got
in here. Then I borrowed your car, crashed your car,
and you're like, why did you crash my car? Like
because you loaned it to me. I just crashed the
car a minute ago. That's what I do. I can't drive. Yeah,
I can't drive. And you know that. You knew that
when you gave me this. I just crashed the car. Now.
There's a beautiful moment in Uh Devil in a Blue

(56:52):
Dress Denzel and Don Chee Uh great Walt mostly movie book,
you know, and Uh Denzel's character Easy Rowlings goes into
a building. They come to interrogate somebody and Easy leaves mouse.
That's done to look after this guy, to keep an
eye on him, and then he goes into the house,

(57:14):
he comes back out. By the time he comes back out,
mouse has killed him. And he said, like, why did
you do that? He's like a mouse? You know what
I do? You left him with me? What's expect fact?
And so to that end, I do feel like I
do feel like we do have some culpability in that

(57:35):
way that Kanye is in charge of his mouth, but
a lot of people are in charge of the platforms
where he's shooting his mouth off, and so at least
we could wholly and totally blame him if he got
on the corner with a megaphone and just started shouting
stuff and it's like, okay, well, you know what, what
are we gonna do? He's out on thirty Street with

(57:55):
a megaphone saying he hates the Jews. Okay, but that's
not what happened. So you know, I'm again it's a
He's a whole person. There's humanity there, there's an experience there. Uh.
And I don't wish for him to continue to be

(58:16):
in these spaces where we can't see through to the
amazing ideas and and his amazing accomplishments because of the
ways in which he's compromised around his ability to express
them in a way that doesn't offend and doesn't repulse
and doesn't repel. You know, even when it's difficult subject matter,
you know, he doesn't quite seem to be able to

(58:38):
present his ideas in a way that allows um us
to engage earnestly. You know, we're feeling triggered, you know,
amongst other things. And so whether that's you know, death
con three or whether that's a like white Lives Matter shirt,
you know, nobody, no one's getting spared. Every champion and

(58:59):
every champion is to be a champion, a champion and
carry champion and carry chapion A champion and carry champion
and carry champions and sports. And then the taming can
make you work. Every champion and carry champions to be
a champion, a champion, they carry champion, they champion, they

(59:20):
carry champion, they care with champion sports, And then the
saying can make it work. Here's my thought when when
people who have a platform such as yourself, I don't
know if it's the right word black thought leaders UM
people who want to present and shore humanity and who

(59:40):
we are all the things, all the things right, I wonder, Ali,
do we do you ever do you ever feel like
it is your responsibility to save someone like Kanye, to
save someone, to to save a particular industry to talk

(01:00:02):
about You just saw you know, another death in the
rap industry, and you think another person was murdered. Is
it our responsibility culturally to protect our own well? Again,
you know, you're talking about you know, uh, you're talking
about adults, and you're talking about adults who have the

(01:00:24):
means to move about the country freely, you know, if
not the world. And so you're you're going to be
challenged again around attempting to stop you know, a a
multi millionaire there, I say, a billionaire from doing what
he wants to do. Um. However, while we may not

(01:00:45):
be able to stop a person from doing a thing,
you know, we can refuse to participate. And the refusal
to participate, uh, is the power that we have if
if in fact, what we want is to be of

(01:01:05):
some aid or some assistance or help or give some
insight or guidance or whatever it is. We're trying to
keep the train on the tracks. We kind of treat
train on the tracks. They lock the conductor booth and
don't let this guy that's gonna drive the train off
the tracks and get in there and get his hands
on the wheel. Just just sit down for a minute.

(01:01:26):
If I if I run Adidas and Kanye said something crazy,
I could go, hey, man, what is what are you doing? Alright? Dude, listen, um.
I don't like what you're doing. I don't like the
way that you're doing. I do love the business that
we have together. But if you continue on in the
way that you are, we're going to have problems. I
see them coming. So what we're gonna do right now
is I'm gonna give you a couple of options. Do this,

(01:01:48):
don't do that, say this, don't say that, And not
to to make someone you know bow down or anything
like that, but just to have some acknowledgement around are
you going too? Can you admit at the bare minimum
that you're having some challenges right now? But why maybe

(01:02:09):
this isn't the best way? Why is it? Why is
he now canceled? And then this might be a difference.
Why is he now canceled quote unquote in theory after
his attack on Jewish people in Adidas, and he wasn't
canceled when he said slavery was a choice. Why why
is it that the disrespect of our community is always overlooked?

(01:02:35):
And we all know if you say anything about another
community and you Jewish people, you we all know you
just don't go there if you want to continue to
thrive in this world. I'm not saying their struggle is
are there are the Holocaust was less important than slavery.
I'm not doing that because right now there's a major

(01:02:55):
battle going on between Black people and Jewish people, and
it's so uncomfortable that we have, you we have to
compare traumas. I don't want to do that. But what
I am saying is, how come he wasn't, in your opinion,
shut down after that? Why did the world not jump up?
Why did the didus not say, uh, that was too
much for me, Kanye? Why did Kim say, you know what,

(01:03:17):
this is enough. I need to distance myself from you
at that moment. All right? So you asking a couple
of things, and one of them is wrapped around this
idea of why is it that he can speak out,
you know, in a particular way about the experiences of
black people and not have the same Vito words impact,

(01:03:39):
you know, his his business and his career in the
same way that, uh it does you know if he
speaks ill of the Jewish community, and I would dare
say it does, but it doesn't look the same. Okay,
we have we have different powers, Okay, Right, So in

(01:04:02):
the middle, you have a man who has a lot
of ideas and likes to sell us stuff, right, And
on one end of the end of the equation, you
have a group of people who can make that happen,
making manufacture and distribute and advertise and promote all of
the things that he wants to sell. He can make
those things real. And on the other side of the
equation you have people who are supposed to spend their

(01:04:23):
money on those things. Right. So if he says an
offensive thing, or hurts the feelings or runs a foul
of the people who are supposed to buy the thing,
then it's the responsibility of the people who are supposed
to buy the thing, if that's the statement they want

(01:04:43):
to make, to stop buying the thing. My statement to
you is you can say whatever you want. Slavery was
a choice. Well, your sneakers are still at the store. Yeah,
that's my response to slavery is a choice. Okay, Well,
good also, so as not buying easy. So I'm gonna
do that. We don't agree, right, And on the other
side of the equation, he can go, uh, Jewish people

(01:05:05):
did X y Z and I disagree with that, and
they go, okay, well you can disagree with him that.
I'm also not going to make your shoes or sell
your records, so you know, if you can find somebody
else to do it the right. You know, if if
if the black people who are mad at you about
whatever you said about them continue to buy your stuff,

(01:05:25):
then why should I quit making it and selling it
to him? Yeah. Conversely, if the people who are making
the stuff, you know, are are being offended by whatever
it is that he said, well you know that's that's
their thing to deal with in the way. So maybe
you are, maybe are Maybe we're having some envy, maybe

(01:05:48):
a little bit of jealousy because the ways in which
we think we'd like to be able to shut something
down looks like it's happening in one space, and we
think that we don't have the power the ability to
make it happen in our own space. Uh, And that's
not entirely true. So you know, I think what we're
looking for more often than not as empathy. You know,

(01:06:10):
it's not about him being cancel It's about wanting to
feel like you give a ship about what what what's
happening with me? You know, nobody's gonna win the battle
of who had it worst, right, because all of the debt,
all of the dead people are dead, right. All of
the people who suffered and have scars and have gone
through things that are you know, horrible things to go through.

(01:06:32):
All of those people have gone through those things. So
in the space of the human experience, you know, we
don't necessarily want for any of those people to have
had to have gone through that. Um and the extent
to which, again I empathize or sympathize with what your
experience was. And then you know, however, ride you know,
engage with you as as a result of that. Is
their dignity is there, is their respect, is their concerning

(01:06:54):
is their effort to see that never happens again? Right?
So that saw, I just think that a lot of
people have knee jerk reactions to these sorts of things.
I do think they're big, I do think they're important. Um,
has Kanye been canceled? Having a rough moment? Yeah, I

(01:07:16):
don't know if he sits down down for a minute.
You know, I don't know the answer to the question,
but I do know sometimes you gotta give people a minute.
I will tell you that I do believe our culture,
black folks in particular or very forgiving, incredibly forgiving. We
live in a whole country where people been trying to

(01:07:37):
kill us since we've been here and we stayed. There's
incredibly every week we gotta forgive something. Every week we
gotta forgive somebody. We Black people as a culture and
as a people, have to have the biggest hearts, have
the most empathy, have the most endurance. I dare say
more than everybody else. Ie is it? And sometimes I
often ask myself is it too much? Are we doing money? Why? Never?

(01:08:02):
What you know? I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna be the
crazy guy and I and you're not crazy. You you've
given me a message. Go ahead, I'm writing it down,
taking notes. Love is stronger. Love is stronger than hate.
It just is. It's very very simple. If two people

(01:08:27):
are tasked with doing a thing that they love or
be a thing that they hate, which thing do you
think they're going to be able to do? Longer. We can't.
We can't tie of hating people. Hating people gets exhausting.
That's like, damn, I've been mad at some people in
my life, and it's some people that at some point
it just gets exhausted. It's like, damn, why was that

(01:08:48):
mad at you? What you do? I forgot? I forgot,
I forgot even if even if you didn't forget, Sometimes
it's like, all right, that's that was a lot of
work to stay mad. It's a lot of work, to say,
a lot of work to stay mad. And we don't
have it as a people, as a culture, and so
and sometimes we gotta hand it off. Sometimes we gotta
go keep eye on that guy. I'm too tired to

(01:09:10):
stay mad at him. But you guys, pick up the
torch and don't let up the heat on this person.
But but anger as a means to an end, I
don't think it's as effective or as efficient as you know,
endeavors of love, so to speak. So even if the
goal of you know, uh, keeping the eye on the prize,

(01:09:32):
so to speak, you know, even if there's something that
is difficult to uh, you know, maintain about whatever that
challenge is the reason that you're doing it, if it
comes from a place of care and love and concern
and connection, you know, uh been, chances are you gonna
stand much better. You know, the odds are much better
if you, you know, completing this task than than failing

(01:09:54):
at it. You know, Ben Ldden blew up the buildings
day down. He's dead and now now we're doing some
other stuff. We built a new building and you're gone,
and I'm sorry that happened. Yeah, and now we will
carry on without you. Well, if I had a choice

(01:10:17):
between loving and hating, which one would I do? I
would love because it's I need you to do that
when I stay angry as I wrap up this interview
because you used to know my heart, because I'm on like, well,
I'm angry, but you're right, I do. I get mad.

(01:10:37):
I get mad all the time and it's okay, it's fine. Yeah,
but you know, um, this is you know now I'm
often the psychology. But but anger is a secondary emotion, right,
Anger comes after her? Yeah? Right? So you know, after
after I've been heard a compromise, you diminished in some way,

(01:10:59):
shape or form. The response that I have to that
is that I want that thing to stop. Whatever the
pain whatever, the discomfort, whatever I'm feeling from this thing,
this person, this event that is making me feel less
than that is causing me whatever, this pain, I hate
it because I wanted to stop. So my goal is

(01:11:19):
to make the thing stop. But that happened first. I
don't just you know, up and walk into a clothing
store and see a pair of jeans and go I
hate those. Nobody does. That hate is compared to something
else's compared to an experience that you had that was great,
that was something that you wanted to be a part of,
And whatever causes the hate is the polar opposite of that,

(01:11:39):
and you just wanted to stop. Okay, I'm gonna go
back and listen to this podcast when I'm angry and
I'm hateful. Any projects that I need to to talk
up about before you go. I know you just said
you're doing Worlse comedy Special Words. That is it on Netflix? Uh?
It will be on HBO starting uh tomorrow Today is

(01:12:02):
November No? No, no, it'll be this weekend. November twelve
is when it premiers. Okay, this podcast airs on a Monday,
so great people will have the opportunity to see it
by then. If not I'll definitely tell them to check
it out. Um. I appreciate your wisdom and more importantly,
your your kindness. It's just a reminder for us to

(01:12:23):
be kind in the world that sometimes doesn't feel very kind. Ali,
You're great, You're just great. I love it. I'm gonna
call Chloe and tell her. I guess who I talked to.
And he was just great, this is great. Uh, you
know it's cool that picture on the wall behind you. Uh,
there's a guy that put out the album with that

(01:12:45):
same photograph. I don't remember his name. I think it's
Adam something. This this this photo. I went to this
this guy's the hotel, like. I was shooting a project
with a really good friend of mine named Jayson and Kennedy,
and we went to the home of one of his friends.
He was a billionaire by guy, and he had this

(01:13:06):
in his house like life size and it was so
powerful for those at home we can't see it. And
it was like, what if you know? And he knew
the photographer who captured this years ago before it was
the racial reckoning of and years ago, and he just
was like, if you if this shocks you, imagine what

(01:13:29):
it really was like. It shouldn't shock you. The reverse image, right,
the reverse image of a black man being hung is
very familiar to us and doesn't make us feel uncomfortable.
So why should this be so shocking? And I just
made me feel like wow, let me think about a
world not promoting hate. But I should not be I
shouldn't be okay with the images of us being murdered

(01:13:53):
and killed because that's what we've been told, right, I
shouldn't be okay with that, and I should be okay
with anyone, but just for us particular. Just to reminder,
Kanye don't like it. I know that much. I'll tell
you that. I'll tell you that. Ali, thank you so
much for joining me on naked and being completely naked
and making me think so much, too so much that
you're on. Y'all, we've been blessed today. We've been blessed today.

(01:14:17):
I'm getting I'm getting sun kissed. I was trying to
find a decent light, but you know, I'm running around
my spot. That's okay, you know, the sun keeps coming
after me. I like it. I like it. I like it.
Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome, You're welcome. You Hey, folks,
did you hear what the man said. If you were
given a choice between doing something you love or something

(01:14:39):
you hate, which one would you do. If you were
given a choice between feeling one emotion versus the other,
which one would you like to feel. It's difficult to
feel hate. It's difficult to hold on the anger. It's
hard to stay in that space. And if you can
stay in that space, I advise you seek some help,

(01:14:59):
some at vice um, a place in which you understand
that you can't continue on that way. It's not healthy.
That's why we as a culture black folks are so forgiving.
I do believe that. I do believe that we were
brought to a country that did not want us, and
we stayed here, and we have fought our way to

(01:15:22):
the top to existence, to find our place to stake
our claim to be bold, and we continue. We continue
to do it. We never stop as black folks, we
never stopped. We always understand what it takes to be
who we are in this world, and we also know
how we show up in this world and how people
see us. But at the end of the day, I

(01:15:43):
have a friend who used to say black folks do trauma, well,
meaning all of the things that we've been through. We
find a way to laugh at it. We find a
way to forgive, We find a way to move on,
We find a way to push forward, even in spite
of what we know will perhaps been in the end
or perhaps um what will happen if we continue to

(01:16:04):
stay in a certain space that they don't respect us in.
We still push through more than more than most I think.
And I'm not getting into struggles, and I'm not getting
into who's whose injustice was worse. I'm not doing that,
all right. I don't want to. I don't want to
get into that. But what I do want to say
is is that we have an incredible, incredible ability to forgive.

(01:16:28):
And it's good to be reminded of that because it
takes a lot to stay angry. I hope you enjoyed
this edition of Naked. You gotta check out the special
It's It's here, It's now on HBO Rail, directed by
Ali le Roy. You gotta check it out. Also, go
back and watch some some old episodes of Everybody Hates Chris?

(01:16:49):
Why Not? Right? Why Not? What? What? What? Else? And
I know there's a reboot and animated version Everyone Still
Hates Chris an animated version that's coming out, so go
check out as well. Uh I am a fan. I'm
so glad I met Ali. Thank you all so much
for joining me. I'll talk to you next week. M