June 20, 2025 • 26 mins
Our hosts Angela Rye, Tiffany Cross, and Andrew Gillum discuss dynamics between the sexes in the Black community.
Relationships between husband and wife, father and daughter, sister and brother–they shape how we move through the world. Let’s recognize what we share and what sets us apart so we can heal together.
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Native Land Pod is brought to you by Reasoned Choice Media.
Thank you to the Native Land Pod team:
Angela Rye as host, executive producer and cofounder of Reasoned Choice Media; Tiffany Cross as host and producer, Andrew Gillum as host and producer, and Lauren Hansen as executive producer; Loren Mychael is our research producer, and Nikolas Harter is our editor and producer. Special thanks to Chris Morrow and Lenard McKelvey, co-founders of Reasoned Choice Media.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Native Land Pod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership
with Resent Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Well come, well come, well come, well come, well come, welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome home, y'all. It has been such a great, fruitful
week of discussion here on Native Land Pod. And so
I know, if you listen to our main episode, we
said that we were going to talk about leadership styles,
and then we got into a discussion on the whole
black men black women dynamic. And I don't know, I
(00:28):
feel like these two conversations somewhat intersect. You all correct
me if you think I'm wrong. But we had Cornell
Belter on a polster, a brilliant poster who runs a
brilliant corner strategy, and he was on with Gabrielle Wyatt
and they had done his really interesting poll about black women,
and Andrew, you made a really good point about well
wait a second, like I hear in the Cornell's point
(00:48):
about black women center community, but you gave a shout
out like, let me just say, black men were leading
until policies harm them, and you know they were still
even after that. Black men were leading, but policies eliminated
a lot of black men. And so that's where we
look up.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I mean, I think I appreciate that, and great summary
again to if it really wasn't to rebut what was stated.
I just think we have to do a more deliberate
job at contextualizing why a thing is a thing, Like
we didn't just wake up one day and black men
disappeared themselves from our neighborhoods. And you know, I think
(01:30):
my granddaddy, my mom's dad, who my grandmother was a housemaker,
raised eighteen headed children, my mother being the eight the
last of them. My granddaddy who ran a gas station
and did lawn maintenance on the weekends, and together in partnership,
not before women were leading, but rather in partnership, they
(01:53):
were leading a household and building neighborhood and community. And
men didn't just black men and just wake up one
day and say I'm done with that, I'm tired of it. Right,
there always been trifling folks. Right, Papa was a rolling stone.
I remember the lyrics from that before I even knew
what any of that, you know meant. So I'm not
I'm not repaying.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
He left alone l O n or alone, like he
took out alone and left it to us, nah Lord.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
But I was alone. I just think the threat that
we represented as a structure, as a as a as
a image to be revered was so such an intimidation
to the structure that existed that these folks had to
(02:48):
develop deeply seeded plans to create what industries. Industries principally
focused on breaking up that part partnership and not just
the marriage partnership. I just mean as black men and
black women who were modeling, not always perfectly, we have
(03:10):
our issues, but who were modeling what it meant in
that pole we saw earlier in the episode, the black
women were prioritizing fairness. They put fairness above DEI when
it came to priorities. I just want to be treated
fairly in this place that they developed these structures that
(03:31):
has bastardized fairness, has bastardized us being in these places.
And then did some jiu jitsu to make what is
our strength and their weakness their biggest strength coming after
us about don't even earn it when the truth is
your children aren't getting into the colleges that you want
(03:51):
them into. Your daughters and sons are not coming home
and sleeping on the couches, and you want them out
and the lie that you have said that you are
better than everyone else on your worst day is coming
home to roost that it was always a lie. Now
they're competing with us. Now they're learning what it means
to try to earn a slide, even though all the
structures have been built and designed for their angrandizement and advancement.
(04:16):
And so what do they do. They say, let's get
rid of hey, take all the diversity, all the inclusion,
and then my son and my daughter will get back
to their rightful place in society. Or if there was,
if that, if if that ain't didn't earn it, I
don't know what it is.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, everything you said, Andrew, I mean I completely echo that.
And you know the point I made in the episode
that dropped earlier this week is it is we We
are a hurt people. We are carrying so much pain around,
generational pain. Our time in this country, you know, was
(04:54):
started in strife, and you know it's taught us to
love just a little bit because our love was a weapon.
And if I birth this child, I'm nursing this child,
I'm caring for this child, and I know at any
minute you can snatch this baby from me. And sell
my child off while I'm raising your kids. That teaches
(05:16):
me I gotta love a little bit if you a man.
And it's like, I love this woman. This is my wife.
We have a family here, and I know at any
minute this white man could come along and rape her
and impregnate her. I can only love her a little bit.
We are carrying that level of pain with us. We've
never really had a collective healing. So that's why when
I hear some of these asinine comments coming from some
(05:38):
of these podcast bros. And you know some of this
very toxic space in the community, I do. I have
a lot of frustration and a lot of hurt because
my brother, I'm not your enemy. Let's keep in mind
who the enemy is. But I also have care. I
have a little I gotta care about you from a distance.
I can't always engage people who appear to hate me,
but I do have to consider this has come from
(06:00):
a place of trauma, and so to me, if we
are turning black love into a weapon, you know that
people can't stop and celebrate black women and what we do.
And as black women, like, we're holding your pain and
everybody else's pain because we see what the state is
doing to you, because the state is doing it to us.
(06:21):
Because when it happens to you, it happens to us,
we feel it.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I would suggest Tiffany also that some of the herd
that is being expressed, and quite frankly righteous frustration with
the fact that the only time you're talked about is
in proximity to a black woman or as opposed to
a black woman, that just as black women exist as individuals,
their joy can rise and fall all on its own.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
There.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
What do you mean? And what I mean by that
is my frustration that I am experiencing right in this
very moment about the systems that have colluded to knock
us down at every opportunity us. But I'm speaking very
specifically about black men here, not in juxtaposition to black women.
(07:12):
Is a terror all on its own, without ever factoring
in what my romantic relationship is. Who I've hurt in
that because white men have toxic behaviors, and white women
do too, and so do black women and so on
and so forth. I'm saying, when the hurt comes, or
what you interpret is hurt, might be really just righteous
(07:33):
indignation about a fucked up system that is weighing on
me absent what it's doing to a black woman, and
even that men black men are allowed to have these
emotions without it being in juxtaposition to how they were treated,
who they dated, what happened in that dating experience, but
(07:55):
as individual humans being able to experience a fierce and
emotion that ain't got nothing to do with the women
or men that we may date.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Wow, you might have been too deep for me there,
because I'm thinking about that, and it's true. When I
think about black men, I do often think through the
lens of black women. I think of the woman who
raised you. I think of your counterpart, you know who
you're attached to. Yeah, Angela what.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I just wanted to remind you all that even though
I need to get out of my hotel room, I
am still here. So I was like, I would tell
me in, tell me in. This is a good contraction
for it. I'm trying to do better than Andrew be.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Like yo yo, hey hey yeah yeah yeah, but no
bro jump in.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
No, it's it's so it's so good and it's it's
funny tip because I don't know where it comes from,
but I feel like we talk about it a lot,
especially in our friend group, I feel really protective of
black men, like really protective of black men. I think
some of it is the relationship with my dad, Like
even growing up, there would be he's all black men.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
I don't. I don't think.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
For yeah, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Because because I don't know, because I've heard you like
really go after some black men who you just don't
feel like represent. You know, I experienced.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Huci. I'm not feel like protective of Clarence, Uncle Clarence.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I'm not talking about him.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
It's definitely to.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Protect and to fa I think there are some men
but I've also heard with which we disagree on. I
don't want to raise it again because I don't want
it to get but I'm just saying, if you don't, well,
but this is the one I'm thinking about. Like you,
we were talking about black men and you were like
very protective of like Charlemagne for example. But like when
after plies, like you don't, so I wonder, like after.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Plies, I feel like I have questions come on the podcast.
I don't feel like I can't because now we're in
this so let me just stay here for a moment
to make sure it's really clear. I don't have an
issue with Plies. I've said he should come on the podcast.
I think that it is interesting how he chooses to
(10:24):
show up and win. But if he wants to be
a social media influencer, I support it, right, I think that,
But I don't feel anything to applies. Like you know,
he welcome to state to the people. He can write
a black paper if you got them to say. But
I do want him to, if he's comfortable with it,
to blend more with who he actually is and the
persona is it. And I think I would say that
(10:46):
about anybody. I love authenticity and so you and I
think that's the main thing. So if there was a criticism,
it would just be that. But I respected a brother. Okay,
so sorry, I don't know what moment.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Go back to. I didn't mean best of it.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
I think like I think, one of the things I
love most about our show is we give each other
the space to work through out loud, our hypocrisies and
our blind spots. So I think if there's a blind
spot called me on it, my blind spot is defending
the Brothers, and I will definitely do that, I think
to a fault. So yeah, I was saying I was
(11:22):
wondering where it was coming from and kind of wrestling
with that. I think a lot of it has to
do with my dad. I'm definitely a daddy's girl. I
love my mama, but I'm definitely a daddy's girl. And
I feel like my mom is more discerning and intuitive.
And I think that that is a natural thing that
black women have, Like we can see the thing before
it's coming, and y'all just ain't got it. So I'm
(11:44):
having a look out for y'all, like, don't cross that
street right there is a car coming both ways. And
I think that that's happened with what'd.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
You say, we got a different skill set? Yeah you do.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Andrew leaves his phone eighty thousand times in one days,
stressful and the and one in the same. My dad
is like that with human beings. You know, it could
be somebody who just stabbed him in the back and
he's like, oh, you can have my last dollar.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
And I'm like, no, forget too.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
So I think there's a natural protection. And I'm like
that about all my friends and loved ones, but it's
especially true for black men. It is especially true because
I'm just like, I don't know if they see the
same tip. I know you discerning and peeping the scene.
I just I love y'all, but I'll be concerned. So
I do think that that is that that's true, and
we don't ask for you never asked for it. I'm
(12:34):
so sorry natural disposition to do this.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Good luck.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
You can tell me you don't need it, and I'll
try to fall back.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
There are times where I don't see things, you know.
There are times where we've been on stage together and
I'm starting to say this and you're like, okay, Dad,
like let's go this way, and I don't know why.
I'm just like, okay, well, I'm not gonna say it
right now, but you'll tell me later. Like there's like
we all see things for each other. But I definitely
think you have like almost anxiety around the people that
(13:06):
you care about, to like I'm a leap frog ahead
and stop this thing from happening. But sometimes you can't,
you know, like you sometimes people gotta fall, sometimes people
gotta get burned. So I haven't experienced it that you
are protective of black men more than you are of
black women. I think you I would describe you as
somebody who is protective.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Yeah, people are hyper there. There's some hyper vigilance curious.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I'm not a black man, so maybe I haven't experienced that.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Of course I've experienced it. And what I would say is,
I think you are you are a justice. You are you,
you pursue justice. You were fully aware of the narrative
that black men didn't earn but often hit with. And
I think as part of your default disposition is you're
(13:58):
not going to contribute to the continuation of that kind
of abuse. So you're like, Okay, leve Ever, I know
what you read, I know what you heard, but let's
set the table again. Let's give this thing a chance.
And I definitely feel like you have it more towards
black men. I guess what I would caution is, yeah,
some things do need to play out, period. But similar
(14:19):
to how I set a couple of weeks ago that
I think we sometimes coddle too much in the electoral process.
Those who are confronted with economic horsship and da da
da da da, and all the reasons why it is
that they could give as to why they choose not
to vote or participate in the process or to go
you know, the extra And I'm not making I'm not
(14:41):
accusing anybody, but the point was to say we have
to treat everybody with the same expectation that if you
want this thing, you got to go get it. And
when you remove the incentive or less than the incentive
for the person to have to show up on their
own to do a thing, so that you can walk
(15:01):
away with an impression about them that they either they
go get us or they not. They hit us or
they not, they're you know, or in this moment, they're
those things. And the the the intention to make the
way just a little bit easier. And some instances could
be the harm. I don't mean that. I don't. I
(15:27):
don't mean when I say in some itsys to be
the harm. It could be keeping someone from the thing
that they absolutely needed to go through to get to
the next thing.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Okay, but there's.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
And by the way, Angela, I don't I don't mean
this as a as a criticism of you. Actually both
ways for men and okay, for both men and women
who predict because I'm a very protective person as well,
and I think sometimes, like you know what, they may
need it to have gone through that thing by doing
it their way, and it doesn't mean, their way would
(16:00):
have caused them collapse and fall on their face. Their
way could have taught me a new way, but we
will never know whether their way could have worked.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I'm curious Angela your response, because I I'm maintained. I
do know, but you know now that you're saying this,
I do notice a difference between me and Andrew, but
I never put it in the category of men and women.
I put it in the category of Andrew is going
to lose his phone, He's going Andrew is used to
having staff around him take care of everything. So Angela's like,
did you get this? Did you get that? Do you
(16:39):
do that? That is what Andrew. That's her way of
protecting Andrew. But I don't feel less protected by you,
Like I still feel like if anything is happening, like
you're gonna say something, if I'm saying something that you
don't want me to say, I feel like you are
right there. You're just a protective person.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I hear you.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Though maybe it's defensive then, like I think that they're
and I don't want to center me in this because
I think that the bottom line is there are some
experiences that black men have had in this country and therefore,
so have black women. But this is about to get
it to bolve us, and it's a mess. I'm to
be really honest, I don't believe all women. I don't.
(17:20):
I don't believe women, especially when black men have been
on the receiving end of harm that has caused them
a violent death in this country. I still don't believe
all women. I think that the experience around, you know,
just the appearance of someone and perceiving that they are,
(17:40):
you know, threatening innately. And my disposition is to naturally say, hey, brother,
how you doing to make sure people know that he's safe.
And that's not cool either, because we shouldn't have to
require that of them, you know that. Like even in
my professional development program, we get so many young women men,
so many young women who apply, and I find myself
(18:04):
kind of catering to the young men to make sure
they're herd because there's only a few of them, and
I want to make sure they go back and tell
their friends to come back around. So I don't know
what that is, but there's something about making sure when
they did beat the stereotype, when they when they do
deserve a chance, that we just give it.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, I guess protective or and I don't think that's
centering you because so many women feel like, like what
you're saying, I think you're representing a lot of women.
And I don't think as Black women we have the
privilege of believing all women because on our side of
the gender divide, it's one of the most dangerous predators,
and that is white women. If you go through the EJI,
(18:46):
the Equal Justice Initiative in Montgomery, Alabama, and this is
one of the largest hallowed grounds, comprehensive memorial dedicated to
people who were terrorized by slavery and who were lynched
during a certain time period. Ninety percent of the reason
behind the lynchings is white women. Somebody said, he whistled
(19:07):
at me. Somebody said, like emmettil was not singular.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
It was.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
It wasn't an anomaly, it was the common thing. So no,
I think because again we carry that trauma in pain
with our brothers, you know, journalists and anti lynching crusader
I to be Wells noted in her eighteen ninety two
pamphlet Southern Horrors that one third of the charges against
black men were for the rape of white women, and
(19:32):
investigations found that most of those relationships were consensual. So yeah,
we just we can't do that.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Now, Somewhere in that journey we lost our way, I
have to say, and in our effort to protect black men,
we forgot to protect ourselves and some of us. I
would argue for God to protect black women because there
are quite frankly black women who are harmed by black men.
And when I hear these comments about some of the
(20:03):
people in the limelight, I will start with just say
R Kelly, when I heard people say, well, should he
be in jail for all that? And please them? Little
girls look grown and they knew what they were doing
and where the parents? Like that breaks my heart because
we're talking about it completely. I know you're not. But
when I some of these comments are from black women,
and I'm looking at this, like you given this girl,
(20:25):
this baby girl less grace, but you have it all
for R.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Kelly.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
So somewhere, but I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Society makes that the permission structure, like like, like, consider
how those women then grew up and that if I
had to demonize my daddy, yes, bad things to me,
but also bought me some of the happiest Christmases. I
ever had or you know, express love to me in
a way that I knew heat stand in front of
(20:53):
a bullet and take it. So, you know, it's so complex,
and it's so nuanced, and where this stuff and comes
out of y'all is so it's so deep, and it
does it deserve a further enveloping. But I will just
you know, Baby Boy is one of my least favorite
movies ever in the world. My wife loves it. I
know a lot of women who love it. I mean,
(21:15):
you couldn't pay me to sit down and love the actors.
You can't pay this down and watch it. Because I
think we have to do better for each other. But
I also think we have to do better. I got
to do better as Andrew Gillum. I got to do
better as a black man. I have to do better
as a father. I have to do better. And all
of those things can be a requirement of me that
(21:36):
I put on myself that are without regard to all
the other influences women who I'm married to, what I'm doing,
da da da da have to you know, have going
on in my life. The man that had to watch
his woman be raped by Massa and see an illegitimate son.
His biggest anger probably had to resided with the fact
(21:58):
that he couldn't protect her, not even the porogeny that
flowed from that. But Yeah, the thing that you feel
most innately that you're responsible for, you feel it without
ever being told, is to protect. And that you can't protect,
(22:19):
there's a shame that comes over you. You know that.
I know we got a rap bud.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, well, but I just you say what that comes
out of and what I think that comes out of,
because anecdotally, we will ask a baby girl to who
endure sexual abuse to shoulder the pain of her abuser
for sure, because and what that comes from is so anecdotally,
and our families will say, Okay, this happens. So now
(22:46):
we got to keep this baby away from the uncle
who touched her. Why Because as sick and as subhuman
as it is to abuse a child, black people know
that the white invented criminal justice system, constructed from slavery
in cites a cruelty beyond even our imagination. So our
(23:06):
thing is, we are going to protect this child, We're
gonna keep this man away, and we're gonna keep it
all out of the hands of white folks because this
man is messed up here, and we were gonna handle
our justice our way, but we still not gonna turn
him over to y'all. And this baby girl is gonna
be safer in my arms and we not gonna turn
her over to y'all. That is what that pain is
(23:28):
born out of. Yeah, and that's a scary thing. So
somehow we gotta come that's not the system is fucked
up that we can't keep living on that system. So
somehow we have to come together. I just want to
thank y'all for just sharing this honesty, because that's the real.
I mean, some people, a lot of people feel how
Angelou do. I feel, well, how Angela does. But not
everybody's brave enough to say I don't believe all women.
(23:49):
I can't believe all women. Some people are afraid of,
you know, the mostly white feminist mafia to jump out
there and say a truth, and some people don't have
the nuance andrew to say what you're saying and about well,
wait a second, let me just stand up here and
say something on behalf of black men, and it is
not always in proximity to a black woman, like we
have a right to exist within our own skin So
(24:09):
these are the type of conversations that you can enjoy
every week on Native Podcast, and this is why we
ask you please tell a friend, please subscribe, but please
be sure to listen. These mini pods drop every Friday.
Our main episodes drop Thursday. You can also check out
the solo pods with Angela and Andrew Somedays y'all. I don't
know Mondays and Tuesdays, so you know, we do have pods.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Sometimes we do have sometimes I was supposed to have one. Wait.
Nick was like, okay, we're doing I was like, yeah, absolutely,
here comes to me yesterday. I can't do it today.
I just can't do it today.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
And you deserve it. You don't have to apologize. You
deserve that rest. You've been killing yourself with this tour
and you chose for I hope anyway that you chose
to rest, doing well, whatever, whatever it was. I hope
that you were doing something that brought you joy, because
you deserve that. Okay, I want.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
So deep and there ain't nothing you can do about it.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
We love you back, I love this and I love
our conversations that y'all can see are not filtered. We said,
we need you know what I was thinking.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
About you were talking about you said you said you're
not you did say you were protective, But I was
thinking about that time when Andrew was trying to say
some crazy ish he shouldn't say on the podcast yes,
and we were like, no, no, no, no, what you
mean to say is what.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Hood's at home everybody, And I was like, this.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Is not doing what you bigg's doing. Okay, Nick's on
camera telling us we gotta go at home, but Nick's
face is right here going to get out. So we
are gonna on that note say welcome home, y'all, and
we will see you back here next week. Tell a friend,
thank you, everybody Happy jeen Native Land Pod is the
(26:21):
production of iHeartRadio in partnership with Recent Choice Media. For
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or wherever you listen to your favorite shows
Native Land Pod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership
with Resent Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Well come, well come, well come, well come, well come, welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome home, y'all. It has been such a great, fruitful
week of discussion here on Native Land Pod. And so
I know, if you listen to our main episode, we
said that we were going to talk about leadership styles,
and then we got into a discussion on the whole
black men black women dynamic. And I don't know, I
(00:28):
feel like these two conversations somewhat intersect. You all correct
me if you think I'm wrong. But we had Cornell
Belter on a polster, a brilliant poster who runs a
brilliant corner strategy, and he was on with Gabrielle Wyatt
and they had done his really interesting poll about black women,
and Andrew, you made a really good point about well
wait a second, like I hear in the Cornell's point
(00:48):
about black women center community, but you gave a shout
out like, let me just say, black men were leading
until policies harm them, and you know they were still
even after that. Black men were leading, but policies eliminated
a lot of black men. And so that's where we
look up.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I mean, I think I appreciate that, and great summary
again to if it really wasn't to rebut what was stated.
I just think we have to do a more deliberate
job at contextualizing why a thing is a thing, Like
we didn't just wake up one day and black men
disappeared themselves from our neighborhoods. And you know, I think
(01:30):
my granddaddy, my mom's dad, who my grandmother was a housemaker,
raised eighteen headed children, my mother being the eight the
last of them. My granddaddy who ran a gas station
and did lawn maintenance on the weekends, and together in partnership,
not before women were leading, but rather in partnership, they
(01:53):
were leading a household and building neighborhood and community. And
men didn't just black men and just wake up one
day and say I'm done with that, I'm tired of it. Right,
there always been trifling folks. Right, Papa was a rolling stone.
I remember the lyrics from that before I even knew
what any of that, you know meant. So I'm not
I'm not repaying.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
He left alone l O n or alone, like he
took out alone and left it to us, nah Lord.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
But I was alone. I just think the threat that
we represented as a structure, as a as a as
a image to be revered was so such an intimidation
to the structure that existed that these folks had to
(02:48):
develop deeply seeded plans to create what industries. Industries principally
focused on breaking up that part partnership and not just
the marriage partnership. I just mean as black men and
black women who were modeling, not always perfectly, we have
(03:10):
our issues, but who were modeling what it meant in
that pole we saw earlier in the episode, the black
women were prioritizing fairness. They put fairness above DEI when
it came to priorities. I just want to be treated
fairly in this place that they developed these structures that
(03:31):
has bastardized fairness, has bastardized us being in these places.
And then did some jiu jitsu to make what is
our strength and their weakness their biggest strength coming after
us about don't even earn it when the truth is
your children aren't getting into the colleges that you want
(03:51):
them into. Your daughters and sons are not coming home
and sleeping on the couches, and you want them out
and the lie that you have said that you are
better than everyone else on your worst day is coming
home to roost that it was always a lie. Now
they're competing with us. Now they're learning what it means
to try to earn a slide, even though all the
structures have been built and designed for their angrandizement and advancement.
(04:16):
And so what do they do. They say, let's get
rid of hey, take all the diversity, all the inclusion,
and then my son and my daughter will get back
to their rightful place in society. Or if there was,
if that, if if that ain't didn't earn it, I
don't know what it is.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, everything you said, Andrew, I mean I completely echo that.
And you know the point I made in the episode
that dropped earlier this week is it is we We
are a hurt people. We are carrying so much pain around,
generational pain. Our time in this country, you know, was
(04:54):
started in strife, and you know it's taught us to
love just a little bit because our love was a weapon.
And if I birth this child, I'm nursing this child,
I'm caring for this child, and I know at any
minute you can snatch this baby from me. And sell
my child off while I'm raising your kids. That teaches
(05:16):
me I gotta love a little bit if you a man.
And it's like, I love this woman. This is my wife.
We have a family here, and I know at any
minute this white man could come along and rape her
and impregnate her. I can only love her a little bit.
We are carrying that level of pain with us. We've
never really had a collective healing. So that's why when
I hear some of these asinine comments coming from some
(05:38):
of these podcast bros. And you know some of this
very toxic space in the community, I do. I have
a lot of frustration and a lot of hurt because
my brother, I'm not your enemy. Let's keep in mind
who the enemy is. But I also have care. I
have a little I gotta care about you from a distance.
I can't always engage people who appear to hate me,
but I do have to consider this has come from
(06:00):
a place of trauma, and so to me, if we
are turning black love into a weapon, you know that
people can't stop and celebrate black women and what we do.
And as black women, like, we're holding your pain and
everybody else's pain because we see what the state is
doing to you, because the state is doing it to us.
(06:21):
Because when it happens to you, it happens to us,
we feel it.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I would suggest Tiffany also that some of the herd
that is being expressed, and quite frankly righteous frustration with
the fact that the only time you're talked about is
in proximity to a black woman or as opposed to
a black woman, that just as black women exist as individuals,
their joy can rise and fall all on its own.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
There.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
What do you mean? And what I mean by that
is my frustration that I am experiencing right in this
very moment about the systems that have colluded to knock
us down at every opportunity us. But I'm speaking very
specifically about black men here, not in juxtaposition to black women.
(07:12):
Is a terror all on its own, without ever factoring
in what my romantic relationship is. Who I've hurt in
that because white men have toxic behaviors, and white women
do too, and so do black women and so on
and so forth. I'm saying, when the hurt comes, or
what you interpret is hurt, might be really just righteous
(07:33):
indignation about a fucked up system that is weighing on
me absent what it's doing to a black woman, and
even that men black men are allowed to have these
emotions without it being in juxtaposition to how they were treated,
who they dated, what happened in that dating experience, but
(07:55):
as individual humans being able to experience a fierce and
emotion that ain't got nothing to do with the women
or men that we may date.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Wow, you might have been too deep for me there,
because I'm thinking about that, and it's true. When I
think about black men, I do often think through the
lens of black women. I think of the woman who
raised you. I think of your counterpart, you know who
you're attached to. Yeah, Angela what.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I just wanted to remind you all that even though
I need to get out of my hotel room, I
am still here. So I was like, I would tell
me in, tell me in. This is a good contraction
for it. I'm trying to do better than Andrew be.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Like yo yo, hey hey yeah yeah yeah, but no
bro jump in.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
No, it's it's so it's so good and it's it's
funny tip because I don't know where it comes from,
but I feel like we talk about it a lot,
especially in our friend group, I feel really protective of
black men, like really protective of black men. I think
some of it is the relationship with my dad, Like
even growing up, there would be he's all black men.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
I don't. I don't think.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
For yeah, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Because because I don't know, because I've heard you like
really go after some black men who you just don't
feel like represent. You know, I experienced.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Huci. I'm not feel like protective of Clarence, Uncle Clarence.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I'm not talking about him.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
It's definitely to.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Protect and to fa I think there are some men
but I've also heard with which we disagree on. I
don't want to raise it again because I don't want
it to get but I'm just saying, if you don't, well,
but this is the one I'm thinking about. Like you,
we were talking about black men and you were like
very protective of like Charlemagne for example. But like when
after plies, like you don't, so I wonder, like after.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Plies, I feel like I have questions come on the podcast.
I don't feel like I can't because now we're in
this so let me just stay here for a moment
to make sure it's really clear. I don't have an
issue with Plies. I've said he should come on the podcast.
I think that it is interesting how he chooses to
(10:24):
show up and win. But if he wants to be
a social media influencer, I support it, right, I think that,
But I don't feel anything to applies. Like you know,
he welcome to state to the people. He can write
a black paper if you got them to say. But
I do want him to, if he's comfortable with it,
to blend more with who he actually is and the
persona is it. And I think I would say that
(10:46):
about anybody. I love authenticity and so you and I
think that's the main thing. So if there was a criticism,
it would just be that. But I respected a brother. Okay,
so sorry, I don't know what moment.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Go back to. I didn't mean best of it.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
I think like I think, one of the things I
love most about our show is we give each other
the space to work through out loud, our hypocrisies and
our blind spots. So I think if there's a blind
spot called me on it, my blind spot is defending
the Brothers, and I will definitely do that, I think
to a fault. So yeah, I was saying I was
(11:22):
wondering where it was coming from and kind of wrestling
with that. I think a lot of it has to
do with my dad. I'm definitely a daddy's girl. I
love my mama, but I'm definitely a daddy's girl. And
I feel like my mom is more discerning and intuitive.
And I think that that is a natural thing that
black women have, Like we can see the thing before
it's coming, and y'all just ain't got it. So I'm
(11:44):
having a look out for y'all, like, don't cross that
street right there is a car coming both ways. And
I think that that's happened with what'd.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
You say, we got a different skill set? Yeah you do.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Andrew leaves his phone eighty thousand times in one days,
stressful and the and one in the same. My dad
is like that with human beings. You know, it could
be somebody who just stabbed him in the back and
he's like, oh, you can have my last dollar.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
And I'm like, no, forget too.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
So I think there's a natural protection. And I'm like
that about all my friends and loved ones, but it's
especially true for black men. It is especially true because
I'm just like, I don't know if they see the
same tip. I know you discerning and peeping the scene.
I just I love y'all, but I'll be concerned. So
I do think that that is that that's true, and
we don't ask for you never asked for it. I'm
(12:34):
so sorry natural disposition to do this.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Good luck.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
You can tell me you don't need it, and I'll
try to fall back.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
There are times where I don't see things, you know.
There are times where we've been on stage together and
I'm starting to say this and you're like, okay, Dad,
like let's go this way, and I don't know why.
I'm just like, okay, well, I'm not gonna say it
right now, but you'll tell me later. Like there's like
we all see things for each other. But I definitely
think you have like almost anxiety around the people that
(13:06):
you care about, to like I'm a leap frog ahead
and stop this thing from happening. But sometimes you can't,
you know, like you sometimes people gotta fall, sometimes people
gotta get burned. So I haven't experienced it that you
are protective of black men more than you are of
black women. I think you I would describe you as
somebody who is protective.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Yeah, people are hyper there. There's some hyper vigilance curious.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I'm not a black man, so maybe I haven't experienced that.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Of course I've experienced it. And what I would say is,
I think you are you are a justice. You are you,
you pursue justice. You were fully aware of the narrative
that black men didn't earn but often hit with. And
I think as part of your default disposition is you're
(13:58):
not going to contribute to the continuation of that kind
of abuse. So you're like, Okay, leve Ever, I know
what you read, I know what you heard, but let's
set the table again. Let's give this thing a chance.
And I definitely feel like you have it more towards
black men. I guess what I would caution is, yeah,
some things do need to play out, period. But similar
(14:19):
to how I set a couple of weeks ago that
I think we sometimes coddle too much in the electoral process.
Those who are confronted with economic horsship and da da
da da da, and all the reasons why it is
that they could give as to why they choose not
to vote or participate in the process or to go
you know, the extra And I'm not making I'm not
(14:41):
accusing anybody, but the point was to say we have
to treat everybody with the same expectation that if you
want this thing, you got to go get it. And
when you remove the incentive or less than the incentive
for the person to have to show up on their
own to do a thing, so that you can walk
(15:01):
away with an impression about them that they either they
go get us or they not. They hit us or
they not, they're you know, or in this moment, they're
those things. And the the the intention to make the
way just a little bit easier. And some instances could
be the harm. I don't mean that. I don't. I
(15:27):
don't mean when I say in some itsys to be
the harm. It could be keeping someone from the thing
that they absolutely needed to go through to get to
the next thing.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Okay, but there's.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
And by the way, Angela, I don't I don't mean
this as a as a criticism of you. Actually both
ways for men and okay, for both men and women
who predict because I'm a very protective person as well,
and I think sometimes, like you know what, they may
need it to have gone through that thing by doing
it their way, and it doesn't mean, their way would
(16:00):
have caused them collapse and fall on their face. Their
way could have taught me a new way, but we
will never know whether their way could have worked.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I'm curious Angela your response, because I I'm maintained. I
do know, but you know now that you're saying this,
I do notice a difference between me and Andrew, but
I never put it in the category of men and women.
I put it in the category of Andrew is going
to lose his phone, He's going Andrew is used to
having staff around him take care of everything. So Angela's like,
did you get this? Did you get that? Do you
(16:39):
do that? That is what Andrew. That's her way of
protecting Andrew. But I don't feel less protected by you,
Like I still feel like if anything is happening, like
you're gonna say something, if I'm saying something that you
don't want me to say, I feel like you are
right there. You're just a protective person.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
I hear you.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Though maybe it's defensive then, like I think that they're
and I don't want to center me in this because
I think that the bottom line is there are some
experiences that black men have had in this country and therefore,
so have black women. But this is about to get
it to bolve us, and it's a mess. I'm to
be really honest, I don't believe all women. I don't.
(17:20):
I don't believe women, especially when black men have been
on the receiving end of harm that has caused them
a violent death in this country. I still don't believe
all women. I think that the experience around, you know,
just the appearance of someone and perceiving that they are,
(17:40):
you know, threatening innately. And my disposition is to naturally say, hey, brother,
how you doing to make sure people know that he's safe.
And that's not cool either, because we shouldn't have to
require that of them, you know that. Like even in
my professional development program, we get so many young women men,
so many young women who apply, and I find myself
(18:04):
kind of catering to the young men to make sure
they're herd because there's only a few of them, and
I want to make sure they go back and tell
their friends to come back around. So I don't know
what that is, but there's something about making sure when
they did beat the stereotype, when they when they do
deserve a chance, that we just give it.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, I guess protective or and I don't think that's
centering you because so many women feel like, like what
you're saying, I think you're representing a lot of women.
And I don't think as Black women we have the
privilege of believing all women because on our side of
the gender divide, it's one of the most dangerous predators,
and that is white women. If you go through the EJI,
(18:46):
the Equal Justice Initiative in Montgomery, Alabama, and this is
one of the largest hallowed grounds, comprehensive memorial dedicated to
people who were terrorized by slavery and who were lynched
during a certain time period. Ninety percent of the reason
behind the lynchings is white women. Somebody said, he whistled
(19:07):
at me. Somebody said, like emmettil was not singular.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
It was.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
It wasn't an anomaly, it was the common thing. So no,
I think because again we carry that trauma in pain
with our brothers, you know, journalists and anti lynching crusader
I to be Wells noted in her eighteen ninety two
pamphlet Southern Horrors that one third of the charges against
black men were for the rape of white women, and
(19:32):
investigations found that most of those relationships were consensual. So yeah,
we just we can't do that.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Now, Somewhere in that journey we lost our way, I
have to say, and in our effort to protect black men,
we forgot to protect ourselves and some of us. I
would argue for God to protect black women because there
are quite frankly black women who are harmed by black men.
And when I hear these comments about some of the
(20:03):
people in the limelight, I will start with just say
R Kelly, when I heard people say, well, should he
be in jail for all that? And please them? Little
girls look grown and they knew what they were doing
and where the parents? Like that breaks my heart because
we're talking about it completely. I know you're not. But
when I some of these comments are from black women,
and I'm looking at this, like you given this girl,
(20:25):
this baby girl less grace, but you have it all
for R.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Kelly.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
So somewhere, but I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Society makes that the permission structure, like like, like, consider
how those women then grew up and that if I
had to demonize my daddy, yes, bad things to me,
but also bought me some of the happiest Christmases. I
ever had or you know, express love to me in
a way that I knew heat stand in front of
(20:53):
a bullet and take it. So, you know, it's so complex,
and it's so nuanced, and where this stuff and comes
out of y'all is so it's so deep, and it
does it deserve a further enveloping. But I will just
you know, Baby Boy is one of my least favorite
movies ever in the world. My wife loves it. I
know a lot of women who love it. I mean,
(21:15):
you couldn't pay me to sit down and love the actors.
You can't pay this down and watch it. Because I
think we have to do better for each other. But
I also think we have to do better. I got
to do better as Andrew Gillum. I got to do
better as a black man. I have to do better
as a father. I have to do better. And all
of those things can be a requirement of me that
(21:36):
I put on myself that are without regard to all
the other influences women who I'm married to, what I'm doing,
da da da da have to you know, have going
on in my life. The man that had to watch
his woman be raped by Massa and see an illegitimate son.
His biggest anger probably had to resided with the fact
(21:58):
that he couldn't protect her, not even the porogeny that
flowed from that. But Yeah, the thing that you feel
most innately that you're responsible for, you feel it without
ever being told, is to protect. And that you can't protect,
(22:19):
there's a shame that comes over you. You know that.
I know we got a rap bud.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, well, but I just you say what that comes
out of and what I think that comes out of,
because anecdotally, we will ask a baby girl to who
endure sexual abuse to shoulder the pain of her abuser
for sure, because and what that comes from is so anecdotally,
and our families will say, Okay, this happens. So now
(22:46):
we got to keep this baby away from the uncle
who touched her. Why Because as sick and as subhuman
as it is to abuse a child, black people know
that the white invented criminal justice system, constructed from slavery
in cites a cruelty beyond even our imagination. So our
(23:06):
thing is, we are going to protect this child, We're
gonna keep this man away, and we're gonna keep it
all out of the hands of white folks because this
man is messed up here, and we were gonna handle
our justice our way, but we still not gonna turn
him over to y'all. And this baby girl is gonna
be safer in my arms and we not gonna turn
her over to y'all. That is what that pain is
(23:28):
born out of. Yeah, and that's a scary thing. So
somehow we gotta come that's not the system is fucked
up that we can't keep living on that system. So
somehow we have to come together. I just want to
thank y'all for just sharing this honesty, because that's the real.
I mean, some people, a lot of people feel how
Angelou do. I feel, well, how Angela does. But not
everybody's brave enough to say I don't believe all women.
(23:49):
I can't believe all women. Some people are afraid of,
you know, the mostly white feminist mafia to jump out
there and say a truth, and some people don't have
the nuance andrew to say what you're saying and about well,
wait a second, let me just stand up here and
say something on behalf of black men, and it is
not always in proximity to a black woman, like we
have a right to exist within our own skin So
(24:09):
these are the type of conversations that you can enjoy
every week on Native Podcast, and this is why we
ask you please tell a friend, please subscribe, but please
be sure to listen. These mini pods drop every Friday.
Our main episodes drop Thursday. You can also check out
the solo pods with Angela and Andrew Somedays y'all. I don't
know Mondays and Tuesdays, so you know, we do have pods.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Sometimes we do have sometimes I was supposed to have one. Wait.
Nick was like, okay, we're doing I was like, yeah, absolutely,
here comes to me yesterday. I can't do it today.
I just can't do it today.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
And you deserve it. You don't have to apologize. You
deserve that rest. You've been killing yourself with this tour
and you chose for I hope anyway that you chose
to rest, doing well, whatever, whatever it was. I hope
that you were doing something that brought you joy, because
you deserve that. Okay, I want.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
So deep and there ain't nothing you can do about it.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
We love you back, I love this and I love
our conversations that y'all can see are not filtered. We said,
we need you know what I was thinking.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
About you were talking about you said you said you're
not you did say you were protective, But I was
thinking about that time when Andrew was trying to say
some crazy ish he shouldn't say on the podcast yes,
and we were like, no, no, no, no, what you
mean to say is what.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Hood's at home everybody, And I was like, this.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Is not doing what you bigg's doing. Okay, Nick's on
camera telling us we gotta go at home, but Nick's
face is right here going to get out. So we
are gonna on that note say welcome home, y'all, and
we will see you back here next week. Tell a friend,
thank you, everybody Happy jeen Native Land Pod is the
(26:21):
production of iHeartRadio in partnership with Recent Choice Media. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows
Hosts And Creators
Tiffany Cross
Andrew Gillum
Angela Rye
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