October 3, 2025 • 48 mins
On this week’s MiniPod, our hosts Angela Rye, Tiffany Cross, and Andrew Gillum are joined by the host of Therapy for Black Girls: Dr. Joy Harden Bradford.
You may have seen the 12 year old who caused 70K worth of damage after having his phone taken? Or perhaps you’ve seen the back and forth between Serena Williams and Megyn Kelly (CLIP FIXED) over cotton plant decorations in a hotel lobby. We’ll get therapist Dr. Joy to help us unpack these viral clips, PLUS we’ll hear from friend of the show, Roland Martin.
If you’d like to submit a question, check out our tutorial video: www.instagram.com/reel/C5j_oBXLIg0/
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Native Land Pod is brought to you by Reasoned Choice Media.
Thank you to the Native Land Pod team:
Angela Rye as host, executive producer and cofounder of Reasoned Choice Media; Tiffany Cross as host and producer, Andrew Gillum as host and producer, and Lauren Hansen as executive producer; Loren Mychael is our research producer, and Nikolas Harter is our editor and producer. Special thanks to Chris Morrow and Lenard McKelvey, co-founders of Reasoned Choice Media.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Native LAMB Pod is the production of iHeartRadio in partnership
with Reason Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome home, y'all is Mini pod Day, and I'm thrilled
because we have very special guests joining us Doctor Joy
Hard and Bradford. She's a licensed psychologist, a speaker, and
host of the wildly popular mental health podcast Therapy for
Black Girls. I've been a guest on her show before
and turned it into my own personal therapy session.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I got a free bee.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
Out of her.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
But we love doctor Joy. It's such a delight to
have you on the show. I was so thrill and
Angela said you would be our guest this week.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So welcome home, Welcome you, Thank you, touch and to
join you all.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Even your voice is so soothing. I love hearing you.
Speaker 5 (00:45):
Might put me out right exactly.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
But there's a reason, Angela, you wanted to have doctor
Joy on the show. I have my own personal therapy
questions I'll be getting to later, But what was your reason.
Speaker 6 (00:56):
Well, there's a clip that keeps circulating online. It's been
viral a few times, and I just want to play
that clip. The clip is of a mother who has
clearly sounded like she's sobbing as she moves around a
(01:19):
very destroyed house. They say that this was seventy thousand
dollars in damage done to her home by her twelve
year old son because she simply took his device away.
We regularly talk about on this show how these devices
are all consuming. We see children getting into them much younger.
(01:41):
I have a good friend of mine whose daughter. I
was watching her daughter when she was two, and this
was several years ago, and I had a book I
was reading to her and the baby was swiping the
page instead of turning the page. So you know, even
even that, like, there are so many ways in which
we begin to rely on these devices.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
For parents.
Speaker 6 (01:58):
Sometimes it's a necessary very mental health reprieve to give
the child something to do. And then you also see
kids whose minds are not developed enough to be able
to hold devices, and when they're taken away, they flip out.
I have never seen something online where a child flips
out and causes this much damage. Or refrigerator was tipped
(02:20):
over in here, every TV screen had a hole in
it or was broken in some way. Dresser's furniture completely destroyed. Again,
they said it was seventy thousand dollars worth of damage.
So before you answer, doctor Joy, I want to go
to my co host one who muttered under his breath.
I have three options that I would have provided this child,
(02:43):
and I want to see if my three options are
aligned with my co host Andrew as you shake your
head in person, all, oh.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
I'm not because I'm embarrassed with the doc here to
say my reaction, I.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Think you should say your reaction.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Well, i'd said, you know, was the video was taking
it in, I'd kick his ass, But I do not physically,
of course, uh harm my children. Of course we have
a stern talking to and I don't believe that would
be in their their set of options to do when
their devices are taken at all.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Yeah, Tiff, how did you feel watching that with you?
If this was your child, or a niece or nephew,
a child's friend, what do you feel like your response
would be to something like that?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Well, you know, I I have an issue with kids
on phones like that, and when I was watching it,
I'm like, this is an addiction, clear and simple, and
I think, you know, I don't want to blame parents,
but I do. I look at that and think the
parent has some responsibility because so often parents will make
(03:45):
these devices the babysitter and put you know, the iPad
down or give a phone down, and not only is
that detrimental to their mental development and their health, but
a study came out, I think last year or from
jama that looked at data more than four thousand kids
and linked addiction to social media, mobile phones, and video
(04:08):
games the higher risk of suicidal thoughts and behavior. So
when I see something like that, I think there is
no more clear example that this is a real problem.
That kid has some serious challenges that derived from the phone,
but also perhaps not the most attentive home life and
not getting enough mental stimulation elsewhere.
Speaker 6 (04:30):
Yeah, I definitely agree with both of y'all. I'm gonna
say my first thing was like, oh, somebody getting an
ass beat. And I don't even believe in whipping kids,
but it's like, at this point, you chose violence.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
I'm choosing violence.
Speaker 6 (04:43):
I don't know whose child you are, but you going
to whoever child you are because you're not my child
doing those stuff like this like this is beyond. And
the other thing that I thought about my mom used
to cheat tease me when we were little. There was
like some you know, Chitlin circuit play that came through Seattle,
and the lady got on there and she would say
I will kill you and tell God you died to
(05:04):
her child. And my mom used to say that to
me all the time, and that's the first thing I
thought of here.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
I was like, Oh, my God, you're going to meet
your maker. So God, did Joy, please tell us why
we're wrong?
Speaker 6 (05:14):
And if this is ever listen to this show what
you would advise her to do with this child that
clearly has an addiction and some clear detrimental, destructive anger
management issues.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So you know, when I watched, I had not seen
this video before before you all shared it, and I
was also struck by like the level of destruction in
the home. And my first thought was, this is not
just about the phone, right, Like I think the phones
and devices feel like very easy places for us to blame,
(05:49):
like what's happening. But my guess is that stuff has
been building up long before the phone was taking it away.
And I think it's also interesting I saw a lot
of people in the comments talking about, you know, similar
reactions like oh he needs to be beat, or people
talked about like getting police involved in all of these things,
all of which I do not think would be helpful.
You know, so much of parenting is really about regulating
(06:13):
ourselves so that we can then also help our children
to regulate. And what I am seeing is just a
complete lack of regulation. It feels like and maybe even
more right, like there may be some addiction things related
to the device, but also maybe some distress tolerance, some
impulse control. Like it feels like there are a host
(06:33):
of things that may be going on that were happening
even before the phone was taken away.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Doctor Joy, Can I ask.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
You know because you made me think that's that's you're
right about?
Speaker 7 (06:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I wanted to ask you because I don't think this
is a problem specific to children. I sit at tables
sometimes with people and they're looking down. I'm just out
of respect for myself and my words and what I
have to offer. When I'm not being listened to, I
don't speak, I won't contribute to the conversation. If you're
on your phone, then that has your attention. I'm not
going to weigh in, but I notice when I'm at
(07:09):
brunch and I'm looking at people and you have a
table full of people and they're all looking down like this.
And it's not that it just I think people don't
have social grace anymore, like they have no idea. We
talk on this show a lot about speaker phone. It
drives me crazy.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
On the train.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I take the train a lot between DC and New York,
and people will just be there watching shows on speaker
and I am the annoying person. It's like, excuse me,
you need headphones on the train. Like I say it
to everybody all the time in my workspace, I'm like, please,
you can't be on speaker. But it just feels like
we're so disconnected from each other, and these phones feel
(07:46):
detrimental to our social health, our mental development as grown
men and women. People don't know how to engage anymore.
It's frustrating for me. I leave my phone downstairs. I'm
intentional about not being on my phone all the time.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
What advice or.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
What would you say to not just children but adults, Like,
what are some practices we can employ to be more
connected and get off these devices.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
I mean, it's really ruining us. It annoys me, that's
how much I think it's ruining us.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, but look at how all of the energy that
you have related to this tiffany a lot, And I
think that that just speaks but it speaks to the
power that the devices often have over us. And so
when you think about as adults, we often struggle with
putting the phone down and being more attended and being
more engaging, you can only imagine what the young people
in our lives struggle with, right, Like, their brains aren't
(08:37):
even fully developed, so of course they struggle with setting
limits around it. And so a lot of it is
modeling for the young people in our lives. How do
we take breaks from our devices? How do we actually
engage with one another? I completely agree with you. I
think that there is a lot of a lot of
social graces that are just not being cultivated anymore. And
I think we also have to think about the fact
(08:58):
that many people also use their devices as a way
to manage anxiety. So if you are like waiting for
a friend to show up and you're like not wanting
to have small talk, what do you do when you're scrolling?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Maybe, right?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
And so I think that that's something else that people
aren't always tapped into, is that many of us are
using devices as a way to kind of regulate ourselves
and to manage any anxiety that we might be feeling.
So in terms of some tips you've already shared, like
having some distance between yourself and the device, so especially
at nighttime, right, Like there's all this research that talks
about the blue lights and like how our brains continue
(09:30):
to be engaged even when we are thinking the phone
is down. So if you can sleep with it in
a different room, that is incredibly helpful both to your
mental health but also for your sleep. There are all
these apps that you can also add to your devices
that turn certain apps off, right, So if you don't
want to be on the social media channels, or you
only want to be able to check your email, like
(09:51):
those kinds of things I think can also be really helpful.
But also making sure that you're getting enough physical activity,
So are you doing enough other things in your life
life to stimulate you so that there isn't necessarily the
need for the phone. But I do think it's important
to think about, Like the way that we're talking about
this is in a lot of ways the same ways
we talk about like managing addictions, right, Like all these
(10:13):
things we have to add to our lives to be
able to put distance between ourselves and these devices. And
it's meant to be that way, right, Like, there are
tons of people who are hired by these companies who
are their entire time is spant trying to figure out
how to keep us on our devices. So I want
people not to be ashamed by this, Like this is
something that has kind of come into our lives and
(10:33):
taken off, I think, much quicker than anybody anticipated. And
so it really is important for us to think about
how do we stay connected to our humanity, both for
ourselves and with one another.
Speaker 5 (10:42):
It's perfect your piece around the addiction piece. I mean,
I relate to that like strongly, just that people are
spending their paid big dollars to keep us right with
those devices. Now. Unlike Tiffany, I am not intentional about
the distance from my devices. I'm just distant from my devices.
I don't respond they yeah, they'd be another room sometimes
(11:04):
in other states, uh, Tiffany h Sometimes in the car
leave I left the last weekend, left it in the
caught a whole weekend because I had to keep my
attention on some sleepover and my three children. But the
of course, the problem he creates is that it creates
the expectation for everyone else that when they send you
(11:24):
a thing, that you're right there to get it in
the moment and then respond. And I say to people,
and anyone knows me already knows it, knows it. I
don't have to say it. If if I'm not physically
holding that device when it comes in the message, I
might not see that thing until I'm really trying to
waste time, you know, standing in a line or something,
and I may go back and revisit what that list
is like. But our society has now created this unbearable
(11:49):
expectation of instant everything, instant access, instant gratification, instant you know,
da da, da, da da. And the Surgeon General last
year issued a about these social media sites and sell
phones particular, and gave advice for parents. And I'm parents
of now these kids who are about to be teenagers
in two years middle school is nonetheless who all their
(12:11):
friends have them, And I told them, you're not getting one.
And if you have to get it, it's being recommended
that you're not by your children smartphones. That you get
them phones for safety and access to you, by and large,
but not to everything else in the world out there
that they're literally being guinea pigs for being experimented on.
As to what the effects are, we don't know the
(12:32):
effects yet because there's not been a generation brought up
under this culture. So I just appreciate you there and
want to echo again the regulation part of this, and
that we as parents also are modeling, you know, to
our children and those who are looking after us, what
it's like to be responsible with the devices.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
And I am joining you in that middle school struggle, Andrew.
I also have an eleven year old and holding off
on a phone for as long as we possibly can.
But it is really hard, right like when all of
the friends have and it's like, oh, this makes me
feel disconnected, but you know, knowing what I know, I
feel like I am trying to hold off as much
as long as I can.
Speaker 6 (13:08):
And friends, I want to ask for the parents who
have children who are battling cell phone addictions and are
afraid to take away devices because they're concerned. Maybe it
wouldn't be at this level, but they're afraid of the
type of destruction or the ways they engage, you know,
their children around devices. They maybe even feel some guilt,
(13:31):
Doctor Joy, like, how can I take away the thing
that I gave.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
To you that you're now relying upon.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
What is some advice that you have for parents who
are figuring out how to wean their kids off of
a device where the reliance on it now may be
a little too heavy.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah, I think it is really important to get a
professional involved, because as we are using this addiction language,
you know, like we if we are not trained, we
don't just stage interventions for people in our lives who
are addicted to other things, right, And so we need
to bring in trained professor about how do we talk
with our young people about these devices and what are
the steps to actually wean them, so to speak, from
(14:07):
these devices. I don't think for most people, cold turkey
is like you don't do that with other substances, and
so with a device you probably would not do that
as well. But I also think it's important for us
to be able to apologize and say like, hey, you know,
I gave you this device and I thought that it
was fine. But the more I learn and the more
I'm reading and the more things I see, I think
(14:30):
that this may be an issue for us. And I
want to backtrack, right, like it's okay to say oops,
I messed up, and again that's great modeling for the
young people in our lives that we can always go
back on the decision and we learn more information, we
can make a different decision. So I think getting a
professional involved and also just acknowledging, like, hey, I know
different things now and I want to make some different
(14:50):
decisions for our family. But I also think, you know,
to our earlier conversation, we have to look at our
own interactions with our devices, right, So we can't say
we want the young people to be their devices and
then every time they see us we have our head
buried in our phone, Like it doesn't work that way.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, doctor Joy, I want to ask a personal therapy question.
I'm trying to get into freebie, a freebie session. Yes, uh,
you know what so much going on? Angela and I
have certainly had some emotional episodes on this show where
you know, things that we're going through personally, but also
(15:26):
things that we're going through in this country. And I
know sometimes for me, like the sadness seems so overwhelming,
you know, it's just compounding we are I'm writing about
this now, about navigating our own internal trauma while experiencing
external trauma. I'm just curious your thoughts. You know, when
(15:48):
you wake up and you face the monstrosities of the day,
you are greeted by images of starving, murdered or starving
or murdered children in the Congo and Palestine. In Sudan.
You are greeted by images of children being ripped apart
screaming for their parents right here in America because ice
is you know, disappearing their parents. You're greeted with the
(16:11):
images of animals being returned to overcrowded shelters because their
humans got deported. And then there are the things in
your own life. You know, maybe you had an ugly
conversation with your mom, or maybe everybody in the family
asked you to brow two hundred dollars that day. Maybe
your mother is in chemo, you know, like real seriously
heavy things. I have been employing different practices on how
(16:33):
to stay afloat, on how to keep putting one foot
in front of the next. But for a lot of
people out there, it's not that they feel you know,
it's not as dire like they feel suicidal. They might
not feel like they need to be committed, but they
just need help managing life. Right now, And I'm just
curious any advice you can offer all of us who
need help managing life right now.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, I think that as much as possible, you really
have to try to disconnect from those images, Tiffany. And
I know it's hard given what y'all do, right, And
my heart often bleeds for you because I know this
is your work, right, Like, this is kind of what
you have been called to do, and it often feels
difficult to like, how do I not bear witness to
all of these awful things that are happening. But when
(17:15):
you think about like just human psychology, our brains cannot
often detect whether something is an image like a storybook
or a movie or a news clip versus you being
there in real life. And so what that means is
that you are often experiencing what we call vicarious trauma,
which is as if you were in the middle of
(17:37):
the war or on the scene of this awful thing happening.
And so you can start to experience things like PTSD symptoms,
you know, difficulty sleeping, difficulty regulating your emotions, and so
I think it is really important, even though there are
so many awful things happening, even if you read about
(17:57):
things that is a little less activating for us than
watching images, because the images really do stay with us.
And so I think as much as possible, really disconnecting
from images, not watching triggering videos again, making sure that
you're paying attention to your sleep, and also, you know,
infusing your life with other things that you are grateful for,
(18:18):
right so, you know, maybe spending time with your animals
or with family members you love, or taking girls trips
or you know, what kinds of things can you add
as a buffer, because your life can't be all this,
right Like, even though it is incredibly important and your
work is so important, it can't be everything. You also
have to build a life around those things as well.
Speaker 8 (18:38):
Yeah, free Well, speaking of trauma, Angela.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
So on this doctor Joy, you mentioned it when you
talked about kind of the articles are reading and vicarious trauma.
There's also some epide genetic trauma that we have, the
things that we carry in our physical bodies ancestrally.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
That sometimes it just feels like white folks don't understand.
Speaker 6 (19:08):
So on that there is a moment that Serena Williams
had recently in her on her hotel, and she brought
us into that if we can roll that clip, all right.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Everyone, how do we feel about cotton as decoration? Personally?
Speaker 5 (19:25):
For me, it doesn't feel great.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
So actually it feels like no polish.
Speaker 9 (19:33):
Means for cotton natural.
Speaker 6 (19:36):
So before you get to this, I want to play
a clip from Megan Kelly where she responded very cluelessly
to what it means to have ancestral trauma.
Speaker 10 (19:47):
Serena Williams is in the news. Why because she was
in New York to support her friend Kim Kardashian with
some things she's doing with Nike, and Serena will Siams
was in town to attend to it. And she's in
some hotel. We do not know which hotel she was staying,
and she did not publicize that. But Serena Williams, who
(20:10):
is one of the richest Americans alive, was triggered.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
By something Maureen.
Speaker 10 (20:16):
And so at the end of that video, she's plucked
one of the cotton balls off of the plant and
she's using it to buff her nails, and then she
she does the hand gesture of like ew, like where
you shake your hands like eh, gross, and she drops it. Now,
Serena Williams is triggered by cotton.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
I guess because.
Speaker 10 (20:34):
It used to be picked by slaves, and she's a
black American.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
It's twenty twenty five.
Speaker 10 (20:39):
Serena Williams is estimated by Forbes to be worth three
hundred and fifty million dollars. She's married to a very,
very rich man too. She hung up her racket in
twenty twenty two, ending a career in which she earned
ninety five million in prize money, more prize money than
any female athlete in history. She has endorsement deals to
(21:01):
this day with more than a dozen brands. She's active
as an investor in her own venture capital firm. She's
got a licensing deal with a beauty line. She's launched
a multimedia company. She owns part of the Miami Dolphins.
But she is an oppressed direct descendant of slaves. I guess,
And that's how she sees herself to this day, because
(21:23):
I guess. Generational trauma.
Speaker 6 (21:25):
Okay, so I want to play that for a couple reasons.
Let me just tell you two points that triggered me.
She said she was with her friend Kim Kardashian to
attend to it, not to attend the event, to attend
to it, which also I don't even know if Megan
understands that she is leaning into where her.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Ancestors probably were to attend to it.
Speaker 6 (21:50):
And then she said that Serena Williams one of the
most accomplished athletes of our time, not black women athletes,
not black athletes, one of the most accomplished athletes of
our time. One prize money. When else did we hear
prize money, y'all? When they had the Battle Royals and
they made enslave people fight. So she's leaning into some
(22:12):
of her own ancestral nonsense.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
So yes, I'm triggered.
Speaker 6 (22:15):
I actually I want to I want to tell you
guys this really quick, and then I am gonna yo,
doctor Joy. When I see cotton fields, I get nauseous.
I get nauseous. Every time I called my mom and
I was like, Mommy, what happens to you when you
see cotton fields? And she said it makes me sick.
There was an ancestor that we have, they said, was
(22:37):
allergic to cotton.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
These are not things that you make up.
Speaker 6 (22:41):
This is there is something called epigenetics that Megan should google.
These are things that we actually carry in our bloodline.
So imagine if you are a descendant of an enslaved person,
You actually.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Do carry some of that trauma.
Speaker 6 (22:55):
We also carry the you know, the victory, the resilience,
but we do carry that trauma anyway.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
I just wanted to point that out. The cotton one
particularly pricked me because I know my experience with cotton.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, I was really struck by how like trite she was,
as if like, this couldn't possibly be an issue for
Serena because money and wealth does not act as a
buffer against racism and oppression, especially for somebody like Serena
who has been so forthcoming about almost dying in the
hospital because of medical discrimination, right, and so you know,
(23:29):
that doesn't buffer her from experiences related to the things
that her ancestors that have experienced the things she's likely
learned and read about and maybe had family talk with
her about, you know. So I think it's a very
natural response, Like and I thought that, like the designer
world had kind of come further along than to decorate
with complaints anymore. Like it feels a bit outdated anyway,
(23:51):
But of course I think a lot of us react
to that because it's just so jarring, right, and it
instantly puts us in the minds of what our ancestors
had to do to survive, and so I was really
strugg though not because this is kind of who Megan
Kelly is and how she shows up right, but really
struck by the way she kind of, you know, brushed
it off, as if this reaction was being dramatic, and
(24:15):
because Serena is wealthy, she should not react this way.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
I wish I was less connected to these, but I
see them. You know, I'm in Florida. I'm in North Florida.
My house is thirty minutes from South Georgia over the
state line. In fact, one of the most regrettable things
that my mom, who listens faithfully, is we'll probably hear
this for the first time. But one of the reasons
I have a hard time driving to her house and
(24:42):
always want her to come to mind is because you
spend a significant amount of the drive passing by these
cotton fields that are still bloom right. I mean, you
go in the right season, it's just a sea of white,
and it bothers me so badly, means to my space.
I mean, my kids have caught me crying, you know,
(25:03):
sometimes when they're in the backseat and we're driving through this,
and I'm thinking about my grandparents, and you know, my
mom's parents who were actually born en slay into slavery.
And you wouldn't think that given our ages, but my grandpa,
my mom's parents were much older than my father's parents.
My mom's the the the what seventeenth child of her parents,
(25:25):
so her mother was laid into early fifty fifty one.
I think it was when my mother came. So it was,
it was, it is. It's everywhere you go to a gala,
you go to a wedding, you go into a hotel.
This is the decoration of choice. It hasn't always been
this way, but it's like it's made it as a revival,
and you know, a lot of it for us, I
(25:48):
think a lot of black folks in the South is
we have to steal ourselves nearly every day. And it's
probably true for black people everywhere, but I know, particularly here,
you literally are sitting desk to desk with someone who
you've read their Facebook posts and you know they don't
like you, not you the person, but your people who
you are. They resent you in every way, shape or form.
(26:11):
But yet you generate these niceties, these exchanges that you
have to have compulsory almost you know, every single day.
So this trauma piece is really what Megan's simple minded.
I don't expect her to understand anything as complex as
generational trauma. In fact, where she comes from is probably
the belief that money solves all problems. And that ought
(26:32):
to tell you enough about the type of type of
stock that she comes from. But for the rest of us,
we can be as wealthy, as situated, as positioned as
anything and still be visited. And the truth of it
is is they know what they are visiting upon us.
They know when they put that Confederate flag up in
the back of the truck driving and all through the city,
(26:55):
they know what they're symbolizing to us. So the feigning
of ignorance is also extremely offensive because they act like
they don't know with the message that they're sending you.
And so I appreciated your feedback on that. And if
there are others for those of us who live this
thing every day, where this is decoration common place, like
(27:17):
the navigating of that without losing your damn mind.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Doctor Joey, I wanted to because Angela and I were
having this discussion. So first off, the idea of intergenerational trauma.
It's actually, as I'm sure you know, being in this
your profession, a newly explored study, we're only five to
six generations from the horrors of enslavement. However, the psychological
and emotional injuries we inherited, as Angela just talked about,
(27:42):
as Andrew just spoke about, past two generations, and the
impact it can have on us is even on a
molecular level, waiting our biology and influencing our loarnged behaviors.
Research from the NIH, the National Institute of Health, suggests
that trauma can affect a person's DNA and potentially leave
an imprint on the health of future generations far removed
(28:05):
from the traumatic event itself. So trauma around this in
some way is in our genetic code. But where Angela
and I differed is we discussed like should we play
the Megan Kelly portion of this? And so Angela the
point was, I think people want to know, like what
do you say when someone says this kind of ridiculous
(28:26):
and ignorance, Like how do you respond? And my thought
is even to see her face and to hear her
voice is triggering. You know, I'm more of the mind
of you know, I don't want to promote her podcast
or what she has to say, and I don't want
to give her that attention. I think this is an
interesting question for you because as black people, we are
(28:47):
so often put in that position where we got point
two seconds to decide. So I know, and I know
Angela has been where you're in a space where somebody
has said something to you and you have to decide.
Am I going to just elevate past this and ignore you?
Or am I about to go spider monkey on your
ass and give you the righteous tongue lashing that you deserve.
(29:07):
Sometimes I don't make the right choice. Sometimes I you know,
I'm gonna go for I got time today. Other Times
I try to elevate above it. So I told angel
I'm like, let's play it so then we can at
least have a discussion about, like should we what kind
of attention we should give these things for the people
navigating those decisions.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
I'm curious what doctor Joy.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Was saying to do if it maybe that was in
your face saying that, like how do you respond?
Speaker 11 (29:32):
Now?
Speaker 6 (29:32):
This is Tip's second free point of advice, But doctor Jordan,
we would love.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
To hear it.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
That's a hard one because I feel like you tiff,
like it could go either way, right, depending on the
kind of day you're having. And I think that that's
the point that there are always so many things that
we are trying to calculate, right like who else is here?
Why am I in this experience? Who else is gonna
be seeing? This is somebody filming? Right Like, they're all
these decisions we're trying to calculate within two seconds, like
(30:00):
you mentioned. And so I don't know that there is
necessarily a right way. It is just what you choose
at the moment. Right, So if you feel like, you
know what, I don't even have time for this today.
I don't think it's wrong to just say, Okay, this
is ignorant, I'm not even going to give this any attention.
But I also think that it is okay to put
people in their place sometimes if you feel like that
is something that you want to do now and to
think about like the consequences, right, Like, well, the consequences
(30:23):
be more detrimental than you just moving on, But sometimes
you just got to let folks know. And so I
don't think that it is a wrong way to do anything.
I think it really is about what do you have
the bandwidth for that day? And thinking about okay, what
could be the potential consequences of this?
Speaker 5 (30:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Yeah, I think our audience when we play these things,
I think our audience actually likes it.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
I think our audience likes to.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Hear, you know, Angelo's response to some of these people,
because I think there are probably people all across the
country who are like, I'm going to respond like that,
so you know, I.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Think people Yeah, sorry, Jeff, go ahead.
Speaker 6 (31:00):
No, I didn't mean to do that, because we heard
about that on a survey too. I just it just
sparked something in me, just to say people have to
deal with these micro and macro aggressions every single day
and are just like, I want the tools.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
What do I say?
Speaker 6 (31:15):
And I think in this moment, all we can hope
for is that at some point people will find their
compassion for humanity. And so if they have been so
closed minded, so closed off, so restricted by who, by
the company they keep, by the books they read, by
the shows they listen to, by the people they entertain,
that allow us to bring you into our experience.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
I got an issue with cotton.
Speaker 6 (31:36):
So does Andrew right, Like that's not happenstand, we don't know, Serena,
you know, like that's not happenstance.
Speaker 7 (31:43):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Tip.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
You didn't say if you have one or not. Doctor Joy,
I don't know if you have one or not.
Speaker 6 (31:47):
But there are some folks that have visceral reactions to
seeing certain types of crops being in certain parts of
the country, you know, talking to a person with a
certain type of accent. It just just can cause different issues.
And so I see it as a teachable moment, even
when it is ignorant. I would love to wipe the
smug look off a face. But if I can do
(32:09):
that with facts and not hands, I would take that
any day.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Yeah, I mean I do. I do have.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
I carry generational trauma in different ways.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
I think we all do.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
I think.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Even who we are in life is so often.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
I interviewed this woman this week from my book, and
she talks about she was eight years old and saw
a woman, a black woman in the black section of
the hospital die, an elderly woman who's gasping for air,
and none of the doctors would treat her because they
had to see the white patients first. And she decided,
at eight years old she was going to become a doctor,
(32:44):
and it made me. I'm writing about probing ourselves and
even our aspirations in life. Even who we become is
in response to, or determined by some level of white
supremacy in this life. I write about this Andrew on
the heels of writing about our conversation we had about imagination,
and so yes, I think we are all impacted by it,
(33:05):
and it can weigh weigh me down. And so I
dare to imagine who am I and what does my
life look like? We're white people not at the center.
Even when I did my show on MSNBC. You know,
black older black folks always pull me aside, like babe,
we worried about you, like be careful. But I dare
to imagine what would this show be if I got
(33:26):
to be free, if I got to speak freely, if
I got to make cultural references the same way to
white folks get to make cultural references. Maybe I don't
get theirs, they don't get mine. If you ain't get
it, it wasn't for you to get you know, who would
we be if we got to talk in our own vernacular?
It didn't have the code switch for their comfort. So
and I think that's kind of the point for this
conversation I'll tell you about later, doctor Joy that Andrew
(33:49):
was making at one point saying that in some ways
white folks have taken our imagination and I'm daring to
reclaim that at least.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
And parts because of the way we have to calculate
our movements. I mean, you you mentioned this in part
doc and your response just who's who's watching? What calculus
must you include around consequence for you doing that thing?
And I talk about it a lot in the in
the form of voting. How you know, Obama didn't become
(34:20):
a thing until a lot of us in this South
saw that white people were willing to get behind him
and and huge fashion, and it changed the math. It's
not because we didn't like him and didn't want to
support him, but we're also we also calculate, and we
don't want to throw votes away because we know how
hard thought they are, and and and we have to
negotiate our power from from from moment to moment, election
(34:41):
to election. But I my agitation a lot of times,
certainly here in the South, is that mostly and I
find this a lot with conversations with white men, is
They use a lot of these painful instances in some
of these sort of gas lit yuh experiences they want
to call up, like black on black crime and why
(35:03):
isn't that there aren't marches when when a black You know,
these sort of things that I find to be really
intended to be provocative to sort of get their opinion
out there under the guise of curiosity. And it ain't curious.
It's largely judgmental. It's mostly meant to poke and mostly
meant to try to serve as it an opportunity for
(35:25):
them to indoctrina you and to believe in a subscribing
to what it is that that that they believe in,
not really hearing the fact that I don't say, why
don't white crime even though that's the majority of crimes
that take place in this country. No one says why
don't white crime? Not news, not people, So why don't
we say that?
Speaker 7 (35:41):
Right?
Speaker 5 (35:41):
I could return that, but I always find I often
find that it's meant to poke, to pride, to provoke,
And so if I if I deny you a response,
it's because I'm not going to entertain you. My choice
is not to entertain you.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
That's it. You have time about that?
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Why, like, listen, if you want to book a session
with me, the book a session with me?
Speaker 6 (36:08):
But I'm not hearing any question. Wait and she like,
am my roster fold? So y'all go way on the
wait list. I love it, she said, She said, do
you have any thoughts about this?
Speaker 4 (36:20):
I dress said about.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I did, but I did want to go back to
your your comment Tiffany around like how imagination gets stolen?
And I think about this a lot as a parent, right,
like how do I create a world from my kids
where they can just be who they are? But the
truth is that they're black boys, and so there is
some reality that I have to infuse and it does
(36:45):
often make me feel bad in some ways that I
am like stripping this imagination from them. But I also,
like I said, I think that's why spaces like this
are important, right, that you don't have to do the
code switching in their cultural references, that you can make
that are ore and that we get it right because
it is a spaceman for us, you know. So I
think that that is something really important to highlight, that
(37:07):
we can also create our own spaces where there is
maybe more an ability to play with our imagination.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
We had an interesting conversation as well. We were broadcasting
live from the Congressional Black Cocus Foundation's Annual Legislative Conference
and Roland Martin, our brother Rowe uncle Roe joined us
and he had some admonishing words about gen X.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
So you can take a listen to that.
Speaker 7 (37:43):
There were a group of people.
Speaker 12 (37:45):
They were the ones who sustained us from King's assassination
to present day. They were the ones who knew who
didn't vote. They did precinct walks, They showed up at
city council, county govern meant state government. I guess my
parents seventy eight, just like Eddie Rai, and we guess
(38:05):
what those people are retiring or in some many cases
they passed away. So there's a generation that did not
replace those people.
Speaker 11 (38:14):
Yea.
Speaker 12 (38:14):
So what we've done is we've become so technical where
we think that social media, text messchien, phone calls replaces
that on the ground infrastructure. And that's what's missing if
you go to place all around the country. That group,
dudey gen X did not step up.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
So one of our viewers actually weighed in with their thoughts,
and I think, you know, Roe's pointing around gen X,
you know, not meeting the moment and maybe failing resonated
with some people. One of our viewers took great offense
to it, so he sent in a comment, I want
you to take a listen. And on the other side,
(38:55):
of course, Roe had time, and so Roe responded to
the viewers, Well, let's first hear from the viewer.
Speaker 9 (39:02):
Greeting's native lampard.
Speaker 5 (39:04):
Hi, this is Keith from DC.
Speaker 11 (39:06):
What's going on?
Speaker 9 (39:06):
Andrew, Angela and Tiffany. This is a private message for
you guys.
Speaker 11 (39:11):
I checked out your town hall the other day that
you had with Roland Martin, and it was a statement
that he made that really inflated me or inflamed them.
Say it was a statement that he made that gen
X failed us. Well, I have a problem with that
because I'm a gen xer. You are gen xers. Roland
(39:31):
himself is a gen xer. Wes Moore, the person you
had on your town hall is a gener xer. Corey
Booker who made that longest speech and whatever, is a
gen xer.
Speaker 9 (39:42):
I participated in the two thousand and eight and twenty
twelve bought.
Speaker 11 (39:46):
President Obama and Biden election.
Speaker 9 (39:48):
I particiate in every election thereof.
Speaker 11 (39:51):
I have camp famous, I have done the phone banks,
I have replaced and removed signs.
Speaker 9 (39:58):
I've done don dore have participants participant in the elections
from whenever I was able to do set up. I'm
a gen xer and the fact that he said the
gen X has failed us is an insult to me.
And if Martin needs to reach out to me, y'all
have my information again, this is Keith. I'm a gen xer.
Put some respect on that name. Gen X fore a baby.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
If this is private by the time our audiences, we
will blur his face.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
He put on a video, but we'll get clarity from him.
So if you're.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Watching videos all the time, but.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
He may not want that.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
So if you see his face clearly, then we reached
out to him and got clarity. If we are blurring
his face, we will cut out his name so people
don't know, so that will explain whatever we'll we'll cut
out all audio that references him. However, I did send
this to Roland uh and Roro had time to respond.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
So let's take a listen to that, right, ro.
Speaker 7 (41:00):
Okay, listen up. I'm gonna need all your people who
are caught up in your feelings about my comments regarding
gen X to pay attention. I know that there are
gen X people who have run for office, but I
was very specific in my criticism. I was talking about
the infrastructure that exist in order for us to turn
(41:25):
out the vote. I'm talking about the people who were
pre seen captains, who were block captains, the people who
have been involved on the ground, the people who run
NAACP chapters, the people who are running community organizations who
are on the ground. Yes there are grassroots organizations. I'm
(41:48):
talking about the people who work elections, who are poll workers.
I'm saying that was this massive infrastructure, that it's not
being replaced. It's a fact. Okay, So you planning, what
you should be asking is where's the infrastructure. Not the
running for office, but the regular ordinary people who do
(42:09):
the work to drive our community engagement every single day.
And I'm telling you all across black communities across the country,
we're losing that because they are retiring or becoming ancestors.
So don't get in your feelings, focus and fix the
issue because that's our problem.
Speaker 8 (42:31):
Yo.
Speaker 6 (42:32):
Wait a minute, the fact that Roland got up in
the morning and recorded this, that you could tell Roland
just woke up. Then Okay, Tiffany was the provocatory.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
And whyonding?
Speaker 5 (42:57):
So Doc, who won? Who won the bat?
Speaker 10 (43:00):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (43:02):
Why have I get in? And how did I get it? Exactly?
Speaker 11 (43:07):
Well?
Speaker 1 (43:07):
There is a question though, of generations and how generations
have changed, even us, you know, talking about kids on
their phones and Andrew talking about his kids because you know,
we don't really know the impact because they haven't come
of age yet.
Speaker 11 (43:20):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
And I find myself slowly morphing into that get off
my lawn, oh theer person, like you kids, put down
your phones and pick up your pants and get into something.
And I feel like maybe we do. I feel like
maybe we do.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
Sound like that.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
And so as the generations come of age, and I
think he made a legitimate point about the infrastructure that
we built as black people. Are we a little bit
disaggregated these days? Even this idea when we were saying,
you know, I'd beat that kid's ass or whatever, A
lot of that is narrative, Like there really isn't any
evidence that this. You know, people would tell me on
(43:53):
growing up, like if I did something wrong.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
Then the neighbor would beat me.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
And then when I got home, my mom would beat
me too, Like there's no evidence this like collective neighborhood
beating who like form kids into perfect human beings who
never misbehaved anymore. So I do here when I hear
the generations like we knew how to do it and
you guys didn't, I am a little bit struck about
what that means for us, specifically as a black community,
(44:18):
because our community is the very thing that made us
survive this four hundred year nightmare. So I do wonder
what your thoughts are as you know, you're raising a
new generation of black boys, you're from a different generation.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Just curries your thoughts, mm hmm.
Speaker 5 (44:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
So what I think I was most struck by in
that exchange is that it felt like there wasn't a
place for feelings, which of course is my thing as
a psychologist, right, And I think that that is what
we're often missing, is that we are kind of talking
at and past one another, as opposed to let me
actually sit with what you're feeling and what you're telling me, right.
And so in the listener's response, he's saying, like, what
(44:56):
I picked up is that he was offended and maybe
hurt that it felt like he was being blamed for
this thing, and blame and shame is never going to
be an effective motivator. And so I think when we
are talking to young people, we are often trying to
use some of these shaming tactics and then wondering why
they are not effective, because shame is not effective, right,
And so I think, if we can actually come to
(45:17):
the table and then let me actually hear what you're saying,
and I apologize if I said something that offended you,
that wasn't my intent, but maybe that's how it happened, right,
And so can we actually get on a feeling level, right, Like,
maybe that's what we're missing, is that we're trying to
brushpast feelings moving to action when we really have to
deal with the feelings first.
Speaker 6 (45:36):
Okay, good episode should could be called do you know
what people say?
Speaker 4 (45:41):
Get out your feelings? Put in parentheses in get feelings.
I like it. I like it.
Speaker 5 (45:48):
I stay there, and I know why your roster's full.
I know why you're roster's full. Honestly, you're this is
really this is not just limited to like this exchange.
This is in life period. So often we find ourselves
trying to win our point and we don't hear that.
The person's like not really debating the marriage of that argument.
They're like, this is how I felt about what you did.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
But I also find myself in the blame and shame category,
like I do in my mind. I find it the
way I speak. Sometimes I find it when I see people,
you know, I feel it. I filter my thoughts sometimes
and sometimes I don't. And when I see people, you know,
disconnected from community or just being disrespectful or like I
(46:33):
don't care about none of this what's happening, Like I
do find.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
Myself not necessarily.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Somebody who does a great job at reaching people without
any blame or shame is Latasha Brown. Like she voting
rights activists who runs Black Voters Matter, and she just
has a way of speaking to people and pulling them in.
She is an evangelist who can make you a believer
in whatever she's preaching because she leads with love. And
so I've tried to learn how to do that. But
(46:59):
even with talking with my family, sometimes I do find
myself judging, you know, or when they say something, I'm like, what, like,
what does that even mean? So that's really good advice
for me and how I present and speak for sure,
I'll try to practice it at this big old gen
x age because I think you went over more people
with honey and not that you're not.
Speaker 5 (47:20):
About to give you another session. I know, I'm just
thinking I had.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
A question, but I stopped myself. I'm like, I'm not
asking a question.
Speaker 5 (47:26):
Judgment. You know you sent and you know.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
In therapy like it don't matter what you say. If
once that forty five fifty minute come up, you could
be like, you have docs.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
I just had an abortion yesterday and they're like, okay,
do that up next week.
Speaker 6 (47:40):
I literally said, and on that note, on that note.
Speaker 5 (47:45):
Welcome you got to come back.
Speaker 6 (47:47):
Though, there are so many people our listeners who come
up to us and say they just relate to wrestling
with not knowing what to do in this moment, balancing
micro trauma with macro, you know, from the government to
what's happening all over the world, you know, really wanting
a safe place to land. And while we convent with
them and we can give them calls to action, we
(48:09):
can't give them the psychological tools to combat the warfare
they're experiencing on every side. So you know, you're always
welcome back home, not just to counsel us, but to
also counsel our audience.
Speaker 4 (48:19):
So we thank God for you and really appreciate you
joining us today.
Speaker 5 (48:23):
You're here. You Welcome home.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
Welcome Home.
Speaker 5 (48:40):
Native lamd Pod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership
with reisent Choice Media. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Native LAMB Pod is the production of iHeartRadio in partnership
with Reason Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome home, y'all is Mini pod Day, and I'm thrilled
because we have very special guests joining us Doctor Joy
Hard and Bradford. She's a licensed psychologist, a speaker, and
host of the wildly popular mental health podcast Therapy for
Black Girls. I've been a guest on her show before
and turned it into my own personal therapy session.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I got a free bee.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
Out of her.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
But we love doctor Joy. It's such a delight to
have you on the show. I was so thrill and
Angela said you would be our guest this week.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So welcome home, Welcome you, Thank you, touch and to
join you all.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Even your voice is so soothing. I love hearing you.
Speaker 5 (00:45):
Might put me out right exactly.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
But there's a reason, Angela, you wanted to have doctor
Joy on the show. I have my own personal therapy
questions I'll be getting to later, But what was your reason.
Speaker 6 (00:56):
Well, there's a clip that keeps circulating online. It's been
viral a few times, and I just want to play
that clip. The clip is of a mother who has
clearly sounded like she's sobbing as she moves around a
(01:19):
very destroyed house. They say that this was seventy thousand
dollars in damage done to her home by her twelve
year old son because she simply took his device away.
We regularly talk about on this show how these devices
are all consuming. We see children getting into them much younger.
(01:41):
I have a good friend of mine whose daughter. I
was watching her daughter when she was two, and this
was several years ago, and I had a book I
was reading to her and the baby was swiping the
page instead of turning the page. So you know, even
even that, like, there are so many ways in which
we begin to rely on these devices.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
For parents.
Speaker 6 (01:58):
Sometimes it's a necessary very mental health reprieve to give
the child something to do. And then you also see
kids whose minds are not developed enough to be able
to hold devices, and when they're taken away, they flip out.
I have never seen something online where a child flips
out and causes this much damage. Or refrigerator was tipped
(02:20):
over in here, every TV screen had a hole in
it or was broken in some way. Dresser's furniture completely destroyed. Again,
they said it was seventy thousand dollars worth of damage.
So before you answer, doctor Joy, I want to go
to my co host one who muttered under his breath.
I have three options that I would have provided this child,
(02:43):
and I want to see if my three options are
aligned with my co host Andrew as you shake your
head in person, all, oh.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
I'm not because I'm embarrassed with the doc here to
say my reaction, I.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Think you should say your reaction.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Well, i'd said, you know, was the video was taking
it in, I'd kick his ass, But I do not physically,
of course, uh harm my children. Of course we have
a stern talking to and I don't believe that would
be in their their set of options to do when
their devices are taken at all.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Yeah, Tiff, how did you feel watching that with you?
If this was your child, or a niece or nephew,
a child's friend, what do you feel like your response
would be to something like that?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Well, you know, I I have an issue with kids
on phones like that, and when I was watching it,
I'm like, this is an addiction, clear and simple, and
I think, you know, I don't want to blame parents,
but I do. I look at that and think the
parent has some responsibility because so often parents will make
(03:45):
these devices the babysitter and put you know, the iPad
down or give a phone down, and not only is
that detrimental to their mental development and their health, but
a study came out, I think last year or from
jama that looked at data more than four thousand kids
and linked addiction to social media, mobile phones, and video
(04:08):
games the higher risk of suicidal thoughts and behavior. So
when I see something like that, I think there is
no more clear example that this is a real problem.
That kid has some serious challenges that derived from the phone,
but also perhaps not the most attentive home life and
not getting enough mental stimulation elsewhere.
Speaker 6 (04:30):
Yeah, I definitely agree with both of y'all. I'm gonna
say my first thing was like, oh, somebody getting an
ass beat. And I don't even believe in whipping kids,
but it's like, at this point, you chose violence.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
I'm choosing violence.
Speaker 6 (04:43):
I don't know whose child you are, but you going
to whoever child you are because you're not my child
doing those stuff like this like this is beyond. And
the other thing that I thought about my mom used
to cheat tease me when we were little. There was
like some you know, Chitlin circuit play that came through Seattle,
and the lady got on there and she would say
I will kill you and tell God you died to
(05:04):
her child. And my mom used to say that to
me all the time, and that's the first thing I
thought of here.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
I was like, Oh, my God, you're going to meet
your maker. So God, did Joy, please tell us why
we're wrong?
Speaker 6 (05:14):
And if this is ever listen to this show what
you would advise her to do with this child that
clearly has an addiction and some clear detrimental, destructive anger
management issues.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So you know, when I watched, I had not seen
this video before before you all shared it, and I
was also struck by like the level of destruction in
the home. And my first thought was, this is not
just about the phone, right, Like I think the phones
and devices feel like very easy places for us to blame,
(05:49):
like what's happening. But my guess is that stuff has
been building up long before the phone was taking it away.
And I think it's also interesting I saw a lot
of people in the comments talking about, you know, similar
reactions like oh he needs to be beat, or people
talked about like getting police involved in all of these things,
all of which I do not think would be helpful.
You know, so much of parenting is really about regulating
(06:13):
ourselves so that we can then also help our children
to regulate. And what I am seeing is just a
complete lack of regulation. It feels like and maybe even
more right, like there may be some addiction things related
to the device, but also maybe some distress tolerance, some
impulse control. Like it feels like there are a host
(06:33):
of things that may be going on that were happening
even before the phone was taken away.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Doctor Joy, Can I ask.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
You know because you made me think that's that's you're
right about?
Speaker 7 (06:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I wanted to ask you because I don't think this
is a problem specific to children. I sit at tables
sometimes with people and they're looking down. I'm just out
of respect for myself and my words and what I
have to offer. When I'm not being listened to, I
don't speak, I won't contribute to the conversation. If you're
on your phone, then that has your attention. I'm not
going to weigh in, but I notice when I'm at
(07:09):
brunch and I'm looking at people and you have a
table full of people and they're all looking down like this.
And it's not that it just I think people don't
have social grace anymore, like they have no idea. We
talk on this show a lot about speaker phone. It
drives me crazy.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
On the train.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
I take the train a lot between DC and New York,
and people will just be there watching shows on speaker
and I am the annoying person. It's like, excuse me,
you need headphones on the train. Like I say it
to everybody all the time in my workspace, I'm like, please,
you can't be on speaker. But it just feels like
we're so disconnected from each other, and these phones feel
(07:46):
detrimental to our social health, our mental development as grown
men and women. People don't know how to engage anymore.
It's frustrating for me. I leave my phone downstairs. I'm
intentional about not being on my phone all the time.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
What advice or.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
What would you say to not just children but adults, Like,
what are some practices we can employ to be more
connected and get off these devices.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
I mean, it's really ruining us. It annoys me, that's
how much I think it's ruining us.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, but look at how all of the energy that
you have related to this tiffany a lot, And I
think that that just speaks but it speaks to the
power that the devices often have over us. And so
when you think about as adults, we often struggle with
putting the phone down and being more attended and being
more engaging, you can only imagine what the young people
in our lives struggle with, right, Like, their brains aren't
(08:37):
even fully developed, so of course they struggle with setting
limits around it. And so a lot of it is
modeling for the young people in our lives. How do
we take breaks from our devices? How do we actually
engage with one another? I completely agree with you. I
think that there is a lot of a lot of
social graces that are just not being cultivated anymore. And
I think we also have to think about the fact
(08:58):
that many people also use their devices as a way
to manage anxiety. So if you are like waiting for
a friend to show up and you're like not wanting
to have small talk, what do you do when you're scrolling?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Maybe, right?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
And so I think that that's something else that people
aren't always tapped into, is that many of us are
using devices as a way to kind of regulate ourselves
and to manage any anxiety that we might be feeling.
So in terms of some tips you've already shared, like
having some distance between yourself and the device, so especially
at nighttime, right, Like there's all this research that talks
about the blue lights and like how our brains continue
(09:30):
to be engaged even when we are thinking the phone
is down. So if you can sleep with it in
a different room, that is incredibly helpful both to your
mental health but also for your sleep. There are all
these apps that you can also add to your devices
that turn certain apps off, right, So if you don't
want to be on the social media channels, or you
only want to be able to check your email, like
(09:51):
those kinds of things I think can also be really helpful.
But also making sure that you're getting enough physical activity,
So are you doing enough other things in your life
life to stimulate you so that there isn't necessarily the
need for the phone. But I do think it's important
to think about, Like the way that we're talking about
this is in a lot of ways the same ways
we talk about like managing addictions, right, Like all these
(10:13):
things we have to add to our lives to be
able to put distance between ourselves and these devices. And
it's meant to be that way, right, Like, there are
tons of people who are hired by these companies who
are their entire time is spant trying to figure out
how to keep us on our devices. So I want
people not to be ashamed by this, Like this is
something that has kind of come into our lives and
(10:33):
taken off, I think, much quicker than anybody anticipated. And
so it really is important for us to think about
how do we stay connected to our humanity, both for
ourselves and with one another.
Speaker 5 (10:42):
It's perfect your piece around the addiction piece. I mean,
I relate to that like strongly, just that people are
spending their paid big dollars to keep us right with
those devices. Now. Unlike Tiffany, I am not intentional about
the distance from my devices. I'm just distant from my devices.
I don't respond they yeah, they'd be another room sometimes
(11:04):
in other states, uh, Tiffany h Sometimes in the car
leave I left the last weekend, left it in the
caught a whole weekend because I had to keep my
attention on some sleepover and my three children. But the
of course, the problem he creates is that it creates
the expectation for everyone else that when they send you
(11:24):
a thing, that you're right there to get it in
the moment and then respond. And I say to people,
and anyone knows me already knows it, knows it. I
don't have to say it. If if I'm not physically
holding that device when it comes in the message, I
might not see that thing until I'm really trying to
waste time, you know, standing in a line or something,
and I may go back and revisit what that list
is like. But our society has now created this unbearable
(11:49):
expectation of instant everything, instant access, instant gratification, instant you know,
da da, da, da da. And the Surgeon General last
year issued a about these social media sites and sell
phones particular, and gave advice for parents. And I'm parents
of now these kids who are about to be teenagers
in two years middle school is nonetheless who all their
(12:11):
friends have them, And I told them, you're not getting one.
And if you have to get it, it's being recommended
that you're not by your children smartphones. That you get
them phones for safety and access to you, by and large,
but not to everything else in the world out there
that they're literally being guinea pigs for being experimented on.
As to what the effects are, we don't know the
(12:32):
effects yet because there's not been a generation brought up
under this culture. So I just appreciate you there and
want to echo again the regulation part of this, and
that we as parents also are modeling, you know, to
our children and those who are looking after us, what
it's like to be responsible with the devices.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
And I am joining you in that middle school struggle, Andrew.
I also have an eleven year old and holding off
on a phone for as long as we possibly can.
But it is really hard, right like when all of
the friends have and it's like, oh, this makes me
feel disconnected, but you know, knowing what I know, I
feel like I am trying to hold off as much
as long as I can.
Speaker 6 (13:08):
And friends, I want to ask for the parents who
have children who are battling cell phone addictions and are
afraid to take away devices because they're concerned. Maybe it
wouldn't be at this level, but they're afraid of the
type of destruction or the ways they engage, you know,
their children around devices. They maybe even feel some guilt,
(13:31):
Doctor Joy, like, how can I take away the thing
that I gave.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
To you that you're now relying upon.
Speaker 6 (13:36):
What is some advice that you have for parents who
are figuring out how to wean their kids off of
a device where the reliance on it now may be
a little too heavy.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah, I think it is really important to get a
professional involved, because as we are using this addiction language,
you know, like we if we are not trained, we
don't just stage interventions for people in our lives who
are addicted to other things, right, And so we need
to bring in trained professor about how do we talk
with our young people about these devices and what are
the steps to actually wean them, so to speak, from
(14:07):
these devices. I don't think for most people, cold turkey
is like you don't do that with other substances, and
so with a device you probably would not do that
as well. But I also think it's important for us
to be able to apologize and say like, hey, you know,
I gave you this device and I thought that it
was fine. But the more I learn and the more
I'm reading and the more things I see, I think
(14:30):
that this may be an issue for us. And I
want to backtrack, right, like it's okay to say oops,
I messed up, and again that's great modeling for the
young people in our lives that we can always go
back on the decision and we learn more information, we
can make a different decision. So I think getting a
professional involved and also just acknowledging, like, hey, I know
different things now and I want to make some different
(14:50):
decisions for our family. But I also think, you know,
to our earlier conversation, we have to look at our
own interactions with our devices, right, So we can't say
we want the young people to be their devices and
then every time they see us we have our head
buried in our phone, Like it doesn't work that way.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah, doctor Joy, I want to ask a personal therapy question.
I'm trying to get into freebie, a freebie session. Yes, uh,
you know what so much going on? Angela and I
have certainly had some emotional episodes on this show where
you know, things that we're going through personally, but also
(15:26):
things that we're going through in this country. And I
know sometimes for me, like the sadness seems so overwhelming,
you know, it's just compounding we are I'm writing about
this now, about navigating our own internal trauma while experiencing
external trauma. I'm just curious your thoughts. You know, when
(15:48):
you wake up and you face the monstrosities of the day,
you are greeted by images of starving, murdered or starving
or murdered children in the Congo and Palestine. In Sudan.
You are greeted by images of children being ripped apart
screaming for their parents right here in America because ice
is you know, disappearing their parents. You're greeted with the
(16:11):
images of animals being returned to overcrowded shelters because their
humans got deported. And then there are the things in
your own life. You know, maybe you had an ugly
conversation with your mom, or maybe everybody in the family
asked you to brow two hundred dollars that day. Maybe
your mother is in chemo, you know, like real seriously
heavy things. I have been employing different practices on how
(16:33):
to stay afloat, on how to keep putting one foot
in front of the next. But for a lot of
people out there, it's not that they feel you know,
it's not as dire like they feel suicidal. They might
not feel like they need to be committed, but they
just need help managing life. Right now, And I'm just
curious any advice you can offer all of us who
need help managing life right now.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, I think that as much as possible, you really
have to try to disconnect from those images, Tiffany. And
I know it's hard given what y'all do, right, And
my heart often bleeds for you because I know this
is your work, right, Like, this is kind of what
you have been called to do, and it often feels
difficult to like, how do I not bear witness to
all of these awful things that are happening. But when
(17:15):
you think about like just human psychology, our brains cannot
often detect whether something is an image like a storybook
or a movie or a news clip versus you being
there in real life. And so what that means is
that you are often experiencing what we call vicarious trauma,
which is as if you were in the middle of
(17:37):
the war or on the scene of this awful thing happening.
And so you can start to experience things like PTSD symptoms,
you know, difficulty sleeping, difficulty regulating your emotions, and so
I think it is really important, even though there are
so many awful things happening, even if you read about
(17:57):
things that is a little less activating for us than
watching images, because the images really do stay with us.
And so I think as much as possible, really disconnecting
from images, not watching triggering videos again, making sure that
you're paying attention to your sleep, and also, you know,
infusing your life with other things that you are grateful for,
(18:18):
right so, you know, maybe spending time with your animals
or with family members you love, or taking girls trips
or you know, what kinds of things can you add
as a buffer, because your life can't be all this,
right Like, even though it is incredibly important and your
work is so important, it can't be everything. You also
have to build a life around those things as well.
Speaker 8 (18:38):
Yeah, free Well, speaking of trauma, Angela.
Speaker 6 (18:51):
So on this doctor Joy, you mentioned it when you
talked about kind of the articles are reading and vicarious trauma.
There's also some epide genetic trauma that we have, the
things that we carry in our physical bodies ancestrally.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
That sometimes it just feels like white folks don't understand.
Speaker 6 (19:08):
So on that there is a moment that Serena Williams
had recently in her on her hotel, and she brought
us into that if we can roll that clip, all right.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Everyone, how do we feel about cotton as decoration? Personally?
Speaker 5 (19:25):
For me, it doesn't feel great.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
So actually it feels like no polish.
Speaker 9 (19:33):
Means for cotton natural.
Speaker 6 (19:36):
So before you get to this, I want to play
a clip from Megan Kelly where she responded very cluelessly
to what it means to have ancestral trauma.
Speaker 10 (19:47):
Serena Williams is in the news. Why because she was
in New York to support her friend Kim Kardashian with
some things she's doing with Nike, and Serena will Siams
was in town to attend to it. And she's in
some hotel. We do not know which hotel she was staying,
and she did not publicize that. But Serena Williams, who
(20:10):
is one of the richest Americans alive, was triggered.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
By something Maureen.
Speaker 10 (20:16):
And so at the end of that video, she's plucked
one of the cotton balls off of the plant and
she's using it to buff her nails, and then she
she does the hand gesture of like ew, like where
you shake your hands like eh, gross, and she drops it. Now,
Serena Williams is triggered by cotton.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
I guess because.
Speaker 10 (20:34):
It used to be picked by slaves, and she's a
black American.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
It's twenty twenty five.
Speaker 10 (20:39):
Serena Williams is estimated by Forbes to be worth three
hundred and fifty million dollars. She's married to a very,
very rich man too. She hung up her racket in
twenty twenty two, ending a career in which she earned
ninety five million in prize money, more prize money than
any female athlete in history. She has endorsement deals to
(21:01):
this day with more than a dozen brands. She's active
as an investor in her own venture capital firm. She's
got a licensing deal with a beauty line. She's launched
a multimedia company. She owns part of the Miami Dolphins.
But she is an oppressed direct descendant of slaves. I guess,
And that's how she sees herself to this day, because
(21:23):
I guess. Generational trauma.
Speaker 6 (21:25):
Okay, so I want to play that for a couple reasons.
Let me just tell you two points that triggered me.
She said she was with her friend Kim Kardashian to
attend to it, not to attend the event, to attend
to it, which also I don't even know if Megan
understands that she is leaning into where her.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Ancestors probably were to attend to it.
Speaker 6 (21:50):
And then she said that Serena Williams one of the
most accomplished athletes of our time, not black women athletes,
not black athletes, one of the most accomplished athletes of
our time. One prize money. When else did we hear
prize money, y'all? When they had the Battle Royals and
they made enslave people fight. So she's leaning into some
(22:12):
of her own ancestral nonsense.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
So yes, I'm triggered.
Speaker 6 (22:15):
I actually I want to I want to tell you
guys this really quick, and then I am gonna yo,
doctor Joy. When I see cotton fields, I get nauseous.
I get nauseous. Every time I called my mom and
I was like, Mommy, what happens to you when you
see cotton fields? And she said it makes me sick.
There was an ancestor that we have, they said, was
(22:37):
allergic to cotton.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
These are not things that you make up.
Speaker 6 (22:41):
This is there is something called epigenetics that Megan should google.
These are things that we actually carry in our bloodline.
So imagine if you are a descendant of an enslaved person,
You actually.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Do carry some of that trauma.
Speaker 6 (22:55):
We also carry the you know, the victory, the resilience,
but we do carry that trauma anyway.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
I just wanted to point that out. The cotton one
particularly pricked me because I know my experience with cotton.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah, I was really struck by how like trite she was,
as if like, this couldn't possibly be an issue for
Serena because money and wealth does not act as a
buffer against racism and oppression, especially for somebody like Serena
who has been so forthcoming about almost dying in the
hospital because of medical discrimination, right, and so you know,
(23:29):
that doesn't buffer her from experiences related to the things
that her ancestors that have experienced the things she's likely
learned and read about and maybe had family talk with
her about, you know. So I think it's a very
natural response, Like and I thought that, like the designer
world had kind of come further along than to decorate
with complaints anymore. Like it feels a bit outdated anyway,
(23:51):
But of course I think a lot of us react
to that because it's just so jarring, right, and it
instantly puts us in the minds of what our ancestors
had to do to survive, and so I was really
strugg though not because this is kind of who Megan
Kelly is and how she shows up right, but really
struck by the way she kind of, you know, brushed
it off, as if this reaction was being dramatic, and
(24:15):
because Serena is wealthy, she should not react this way.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
I wish I was less connected to these, but I
see them. You know, I'm in Florida. I'm in North Florida.
My house is thirty minutes from South Georgia over the
state line. In fact, one of the most regrettable things
that my mom, who listens faithfully, is we'll probably hear
this for the first time. But one of the reasons
I have a hard time driving to her house and
(24:42):
always want her to come to mind is because you
spend a significant amount of the drive passing by these
cotton fields that are still bloom right. I mean, you
go in the right season, it's just a sea of white,
and it bothers me so badly, means to my space.
I mean, my kids have caught me crying, you know,
(25:03):
sometimes when they're in the backseat and we're driving through this,
and I'm thinking about my grandparents, and you know, my
mom's parents who were actually born en slay into slavery.
And you wouldn't think that given our ages, but my grandpa,
my mom's parents were much older than my father's parents.
My mom's the the the what seventeenth child of her parents,
(25:25):
so her mother was laid into early fifty fifty one.
I think it was when my mother came. So it was,
it was, it is. It's everywhere you go to a gala,
you go to a wedding, you go into a hotel.
This is the decoration of choice. It hasn't always been
this way, but it's like it's made it as a revival,
and you know, a lot of it for us, I
(25:48):
think a lot of black folks in the South is
we have to steal ourselves nearly every day. And it's
probably true for black people everywhere, but I know, particularly here,
you literally are sitting desk to desk with someone who
you've read their Facebook posts and you know they don't
like you, not you the person, but your people who
you are. They resent you in every way, shape or form.
(26:11):
But yet you generate these niceties, these exchanges that you
have to have compulsory almost you know, every single day.
So this trauma piece is really what Megan's simple minded.
I don't expect her to understand anything as complex as
generational trauma. In fact, where she comes from is probably
the belief that money solves all problems. And that ought
(26:32):
to tell you enough about the type of type of
stock that she comes from. But for the rest of us,
we can be as wealthy, as situated, as positioned as
anything and still be visited. And the truth of it
is is they know what they are visiting upon us.
They know when they put that Confederate flag up in
the back of the truck driving and all through the city,
(26:55):
they know what they're symbolizing to us. So the feigning
of ignorance is also extremely offensive because they act like
they don't know with the message that they're sending you.
And so I appreciated your feedback on that. And if
there are others for those of us who live this
thing every day, where this is decoration common place, like
(27:17):
the navigating of that without losing your damn mind.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Doctor Joey, I wanted to because Angela and I were
having this discussion. So first off, the idea of intergenerational trauma.
It's actually, as I'm sure you know, being in this
your profession, a newly explored study, we're only five to
six generations from the horrors of enslavement. However, the psychological
and emotional injuries we inherited, as Angela just talked about,
(27:42):
as Andrew just spoke about, past two generations, and the
impact it can have on us is even on a
molecular level, waiting our biology and influencing our loarnged behaviors.
Research from the NIH, the National Institute of Health, suggests
that trauma can affect a person's DNA and potentially leave
an imprint on the health of future generations far removed
(28:05):
from the traumatic event itself. So trauma around this in
some way is in our genetic code. But where Angela
and I differed is we discussed like should we play
the Megan Kelly portion of this? And so Angela the
point was, I think people want to know, like what
do you say when someone says this kind of ridiculous
(28:26):
and ignorance, Like how do you respond? And my thought
is even to see her face and to hear her
voice is triggering. You know, I'm more of the mind
of you know, I don't want to promote her podcast
or what she has to say, and I don't want
to give her that attention. I think this is an
interesting question for you because as black people, we are
(28:47):
so often put in that position where we got point
two seconds to decide. So I know, and I know
Angela has been where you're in a space where somebody
has said something to you and you have to decide.
Am I going to just elevate past this and ignore you?
Or am I about to go spider monkey on your
ass and give you the righteous tongue lashing that you deserve.
(29:07):
Sometimes I don't make the right choice. Sometimes I you know,
I'm gonna go for I got time today. Other Times
I try to elevate above it. So I told angel
I'm like, let's play it so then we can at
least have a discussion about, like should we what kind
of attention we should give these things for the people
navigating those decisions.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
I'm curious what doctor Joy.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Was saying to do if it maybe that was in
your face saying that, like how do you respond?
Speaker 11 (29:32):
Now?
Speaker 6 (29:32):
This is Tip's second free point of advice, But doctor Jordan,
we would love.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
To hear it.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
That's a hard one because I feel like you tiff,
like it could go either way, right, depending on the
kind of day you're having. And I think that that's
the point that there are always so many things that
we are trying to calculate, right like who else is here?
Why am I in this experience? Who else is gonna
be seeing? This is somebody filming? Right Like, they're all
these decisions we're trying to calculate within two seconds, like
(30:00):
you mentioned. And so I don't know that there is
necessarily a right way. It is just what you choose
at the moment. Right, So if you feel like, you
know what, I don't even have time for this today.
I don't think it's wrong to just say, Okay, this
is ignorant, I'm not even going to give this any attention.
But I also think that it is okay to put
people in their place sometimes if you feel like that
is something that you want to do now and to
think about like the consequences, right, Like, well, the consequences
(30:23):
be more detrimental than you just moving on, But sometimes
you just got to let folks know. And so I
don't think that it is a wrong way to do anything.
I think it really is about what do you have
the bandwidth for that day? And thinking about okay, what
could be the potential consequences of this?
Speaker 5 (30:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Yeah, I think our audience when we play these things,
I think our audience actually likes it.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
I think our audience likes to.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Hear, you know, Angelo's response to some of these people,
because I think there are probably people all across the
country who are like, I'm going to respond like that,
so you know, I.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Think people Yeah, sorry, Jeff, go ahead.
Speaker 6 (31:00):
No, I didn't mean to do that, because we heard
about that on a survey too. I just it just
sparked something in me, just to say people have to
deal with these micro and macro aggressions every single day
and are just like, I want the tools.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
What do I say?
Speaker 6 (31:15):
And I think in this moment, all we can hope
for is that at some point people will find their
compassion for humanity. And so if they have been so
closed minded, so closed off, so restricted by who, by
the company they keep, by the books they read, by
the shows they listen to, by the people they entertain,
that allow us to bring you into our experience.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
I got an issue with cotton.
Speaker 6 (31:36):
So does Andrew right, Like that's not happenstand, we don't know, Serena,
you know, like that's not happenstance.
Speaker 7 (31:43):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Tip.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
You didn't say if you have one or not. Doctor Joy,
I don't know if you have one or not.
Speaker 6 (31:47):
But there are some folks that have visceral reactions to
seeing certain types of crops being in certain parts of
the country, you know, talking to a person with a
certain type of accent. It just just can cause different issues.
And so I see it as a teachable moment, even
when it is ignorant. I would love to wipe the
smug look off a face. But if I can do
(32:09):
that with facts and not hands, I would take that
any day.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Yeah, I mean I do. I do have.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
I carry generational trauma in different ways.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
I think we all do.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
I think.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Even who we are in life is so often.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
I interviewed this woman this week from my book, and
she talks about she was eight years old and saw
a woman, a black woman in the black section of
the hospital die, an elderly woman who's gasping for air,
and none of the doctors would treat her because they
had to see the white patients first. And she decided,
at eight years old she was going to become a doctor,
(32:44):
and it made me. I'm writing about probing ourselves and
even our aspirations in life. Even who we become is
in response to, or determined by some level of white
supremacy in this life. I write about this Andrew on
the heels of writing about our conversation we had about imagination,
and so yes, I think we are all impacted by it,
(33:05):
and it can weigh weigh me down. And so I
dare to imagine who am I and what does my
life look like? We're white people not at the center.
Even when I did my show on MSNBC. You know,
black older black folks always pull me aside, like babe,
we worried about you, like be careful. But I dare
to imagine what would this show be if I got
(33:26):
to be free, if I got to speak freely, if
I got to make cultural references the same way to
white folks get to make cultural references. Maybe I don't
get theirs, they don't get mine. If you ain't get
it, it wasn't for you to get you know, who would
we be if we got to talk in our own vernacular?
It didn't have the code switch for their comfort. So
and I think that's kind of the point for this
conversation I'll tell you about later, doctor Joy that Andrew
(33:49):
was making at one point saying that in some ways
white folks have taken our imagination and I'm daring to
reclaim that at least.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
And parts because of the way we have to calculate
our movements. I mean, you you mentioned this in part
doc and your response just who's who's watching? What calculus
must you include around consequence for you doing that thing?
And I talk about it a lot in the in
the form of voting. How you know, Obama didn't become
(34:20):
a thing until a lot of us in this South
saw that white people were willing to get behind him
and and huge fashion, and it changed the math. It's
not because we didn't like him and didn't want to
support him, but we're also we also calculate, and we
don't want to throw votes away because we know how
hard thought they are, and and and we have to
negotiate our power from from from moment to moment, election
(34:41):
to election. But I my agitation a lot of times,
certainly here in the South, is that mostly and I
find this a lot with conversations with white men, is
They use a lot of these painful instances in some
of these sort of gas lit yuh experiences they want
to call up, like black on black crime and why
(35:03):
isn't that there aren't marches when when a black You know,
these sort of things that I find to be really
intended to be provocative to sort of get their opinion
out there under the guise of curiosity. And it ain't curious.
It's largely judgmental. It's mostly meant to poke and mostly
meant to try to serve as it an opportunity for
(35:25):
them to indoctrina you and to believe in a subscribing
to what it is that that that they believe in,
not really hearing the fact that I don't say, why
don't white crime even though that's the majority of crimes
that take place in this country. No one says why
don't white crime? Not news, not people, So why don't
we say that?
Speaker 7 (35:41):
Right?
Speaker 5 (35:41):
I could return that, but I always find I often
find that it's meant to poke, to pride, to provoke,
And so if I if I deny you a response,
it's because I'm not going to entertain you. My choice
is not to entertain you.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
That's it. You have time about that?
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Why, like, listen, if you want to book a session
with me, the book a session with me?
Speaker 6 (36:08):
But I'm not hearing any question. Wait and she like,
am my roster fold? So y'all go way on the
wait list. I love it, she said, She said, do
you have any thoughts about this?
Speaker 4 (36:20):
I dress said about.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
I did, but I did want to go back to
your your comment Tiffany around like how imagination gets stolen?
And I think about this a lot as a parent, right,
like how do I create a world from my kids
where they can just be who they are? But the
truth is that they're black boys, and so there is
some reality that I have to infuse and it does
(36:45):
often make me feel bad in some ways that I
am like stripping this imagination from them. But I also,
like I said, I think that's why spaces like this
are important, right, that you don't have to do the
code switching in their cultural references, that you can make
that are ore and that we get it right because
it is a spaceman for us, you know. So I
think that that is something really important to highlight, that
(37:07):
we can also create our own spaces where there is
maybe more an ability to play with our imagination.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
We had an interesting conversation as well. We were broadcasting
live from the Congressional Black Cocus Foundation's Annual Legislative Conference
and Roland Martin, our brother Rowe uncle Roe joined us
and he had some admonishing words about gen X.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
So you can take a listen to that.
Speaker 7 (37:43):
There were a group of people.
Speaker 12 (37:45):
They were the ones who sustained us from King's assassination
to present day. They were the ones who knew who
didn't vote. They did precinct walks, They showed up at
city council, county govern meant state government. I guess my
parents seventy eight, just like Eddie Rai, and we guess
(38:05):
what those people are retiring or in some many cases
they passed away. So there's a generation that did not
replace those people.
Speaker 11 (38:14):
Yea.
Speaker 12 (38:14):
So what we've done is we've become so technical where
we think that social media, text messchien, phone calls replaces
that on the ground infrastructure. And that's what's missing if
you go to place all around the country. That group,
dudey gen X did not step up.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
So one of our viewers actually weighed in with their thoughts,
and I think, you know, Roe's pointing around gen X,
you know, not meeting the moment and maybe failing resonated
with some people. One of our viewers took great offense
to it, so he sent in a comment, I want
you to take a listen. And on the other side,
(38:55):
of course, Roe had time, and so Roe responded to
the viewers, Well, let's first hear from the viewer.
Speaker 9 (39:02):
Greeting's native lampard.
Speaker 5 (39:04):
Hi, this is Keith from DC.
Speaker 11 (39:06):
What's going on?
Speaker 9 (39:06):
Andrew, Angela and Tiffany. This is a private message for
you guys.
Speaker 11 (39:11):
I checked out your town hall the other day that
you had with Roland Martin, and it was a statement
that he made that really inflated me or inflamed them.
Say it was a statement that he made that gen
X failed us. Well, I have a problem with that
because I'm a gen xer. You are gen xers. Roland
(39:31):
himself is a gen xer. Wes Moore, the person you
had on your town hall is a gener xer. Corey
Booker who made that longest speech and whatever, is a
gen xer.
Speaker 9 (39:42):
I participated in the two thousand and eight and twenty
twelve bought.
Speaker 11 (39:46):
President Obama and Biden election.
Speaker 9 (39:48):
I particiate in every election thereof.
Speaker 11 (39:51):
I have camp famous, I have done the phone banks,
I have replaced and removed signs.
Speaker 9 (39:58):
I've done don dore have participants participant in the elections
from whenever I was able to do set up. I'm
a gen xer and the fact that he said the
gen X has failed us is an insult to me.
And if Martin needs to reach out to me, y'all
have my information again, this is Keith. I'm a gen xer.
Put some respect on that name. Gen X fore a baby.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
If this is private by the time our audiences, we
will blur his face.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
He put on a video, but we'll get clarity from him.
So if you're.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Watching videos all the time, but.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
He may not want that.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
So if you see his face clearly, then we reached
out to him and got clarity. If we are blurring
his face, we will cut out his name so people
don't know, so that will explain whatever we'll we'll cut
out all audio that references him. However, I did send
this to Roland uh and Roro had time to respond.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
So let's take a listen to that, right, ro.
Speaker 7 (41:00):
Okay, listen up. I'm gonna need all your people who
are caught up in your feelings about my comments regarding
gen X to pay attention. I know that there are
gen X people who have run for office, but I
was very specific in my criticism. I was talking about
the infrastructure that exist in order for us to turn
(41:25):
out the vote. I'm talking about the people who were
pre seen captains, who were block captains, the people who
have been involved on the ground, the people who run
NAACP chapters, the people who are running community organizations who
are on the ground. Yes there are grassroots organizations. I'm
(41:48):
talking about the people who work elections, who are poll workers.
I'm saying that was this massive infrastructure, that it's not
being replaced. It's a fact. Okay, So you planning, what
you should be asking is where's the infrastructure. Not the
running for office, but the regular ordinary people who do
(42:09):
the work to drive our community engagement every single day.
And I'm telling you all across black communities across the country,
we're losing that because they are retiring or becoming ancestors.
So don't get in your feelings, focus and fix the
issue because that's our problem.
Speaker 8 (42:31):
Yo.
Speaker 6 (42:32):
Wait a minute, the fact that Roland got up in
the morning and recorded this, that you could tell Roland
just woke up. Then Okay, Tiffany was the provocatory.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
And whyonding?
Speaker 5 (42:57):
So Doc, who won? Who won the bat?
Speaker 10 (43:00):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (43:02):
Why have I get in? And how did I get it? Exactly?
Speaker 11 (43:07):
Well?
Speaker 1 (43:07):
There is a question though, of generations and how generations
have changed, even us, you know, talking about kids on
their phones and Andrew talking about his kids because you know,
we don't really know the impact because they haven't come
of age yet.
Speaker 11 (43:20):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
And I find myself slowly morphing into that get off
my lawn, oh theer person, like you kids, put down
your phones and pick up your pants and get into something.
And I feel like maybe we do. I feel like
maybe we do.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
Sound like that.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
And so as the generations come of age, and I
think he made a legitimate point about the infrastructure that
we built as black people. Are we a little bit
disaggregated these days? Even this idea when we were saying,
you know, I'd beat that kid's ass or whatever, A
lot of that is narrative, Like there really isn't any
evidence that this. You know, people would tell me on
(43:53):
growing up, like if I did something wrong.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
Then the neighbor would beat me.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
And then when I got home, my mom would beat
me too, Like there's no evidence this like collective neighborhood
beating who like form kids into perfect human beings who
never misbehaved anymore. So I do here when I hear
the generations like we knew how to do it and
you guys didn't, I am a little bit struck about
what that means for us, specifically as a black community,
(44:18):
because our community is the very thing that made us
survive this four hundred year nightmare. So I do wonder
what your thoughts are as you know, you're raising a
new generation of black boys, you're from a different generation.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Just curries your thoughts, mm hmm.
Speaker 5 (44:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
So what I think I was most struck by in
that exchange is that it felt like there wasn't a
place for feelings, which of course is my thing as
a psychologist, right, And I think that that is what
we're often missing, is that we are kind of talking
at and past one another, as opposed to let me
actually sit with what you're feeling and what you're telling me, right.
And so in the listener's response, he's saying, like, what
(44:56):
I picked up is that he was offended and maybe
hurt that it felt like he was being blamed for
this thing, and blame and shame is never going to
be an effective motivator. And so I think when we
are talking to young people, we are often trying to
use some of these shaming tactics and then wondering why
they are not effective, because shame is not effective, right,
And so I think, if we can actually come to
(45:17):
the table and then let me actually hear what you're saying,
and I apologize if I said something that offended you,
that wasn't my intent, but maybe that's how it happened, right,
And so can we actually get on a feeling level, right, Like,
maybe that's what we're missing, is that we're trying to
brushpast feelings moving to action when we really have to
deal with the feelings first.
Speaker 6 (45:36):
Okay, good episode should could be called do you know
what people say?
Speaker 4 (45:41):
Get out your feelings? Put in parentheses in get feelings.
I like it. I like it.
Speaker 5 (45:48):
I stay there, and I know why your roster's full.
I know why you're roster's full. Honestly, you're this is
really this is not just limited to like this exchange.
This is in life period. So often we find ourselves
trying to win our point and we don't hear that.
The person's like not really debating the marriage of that argument.
They're like, this is how I felt about what you did.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
But I also find myself in the blame and shame category,
like I do in my mind. I find it the
way I speak. Sometimes I find it when I see people,
you know, I feel it. I filter my thoughts sometimes
and sometimes I don't. And when I see people, you know,
disconnected from community or just being disrespectful or like I
(46:33):
don't care about none of this what's happening, Like I
do find.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
Myself not necessarily.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
Somebody who does a great job at reaching people without
any blame or shame is Latasha Brown. Like she voting
rights activists who runs Black Voters Matter, and she just
has a way of speaking to people and pulling them in.
She is an evangelist who can make you a believer
in whatever she's preaching because she leads with love. And
so I've tried to learn how to do that. But
(46:59):
even with talking with my family, sometimes I do find
myself judging, you know, or when they say something, I'm like, what, like,
what does that even mean? So that's really good advice
for me and how I present and speak for sure,
I'll try to practice it at this big old gen
x age because I think you went over more people
with honey and not that you're not.
Speaker 5 (47:20):
About to give you another session. I know, I'm just
thinking I had.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
A question, but I stopped myself. I'm like, I'm not
asking a question.
Speaker 5 (47:26):
Judgment. You know you sent and you know.
Speaker 3 (47:29):
In therapy like it don't matter what you say. If
once that forty five fifty minute come up, you could
be like, you have docs.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
I just had an abortion yesterday and they're like, okay,
do that up next week.
Speaker 6 (47:40):
I literally said, and on that note, on that note.
Speaker 5 (47:45):
Welcome you got to come back.
Speaker 6 (47:47):
Though, there are so many people our listeners who come
up to us and say they just relate to wrestling
with not knowing what to do in this moment, balancing
micro trauma with macro, you know, from the government to
what's happening all over the world, you know, really wanting
a safe place to land. And while we convent with
them and we can give them calls to action, we
(48:09):
can't give them the psychological tools to combat the warfare
they're experiencing on every side. So you know, you're always
welcome back home, not just to counsel us, but to
also counsel our audience.
Speaker 4 (48:19):
So we thank God for you and really appreciate you
joining us today.
Speaker 5 (48:23):
You're here. You Welcome home.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
Welcome Home.
Speaker 5 (48:40):
Native lamd Pod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership
with reisent Choice Media. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Tiffany Cross
Andrew Gillum
Angela Rye
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