December 16, 2025 • 32 mins
On this week’s SoloPod, Angela Rye is joined by Damario Solomon-Simmons to discuss Mother Fletcher’s passing. Viola “Mother” Fletcher was one of the last survivors of the Tulsa Massacre and (with Damario’s help) a powerful advocate for reparations. Damario walks us through the ongoing fight for reparations PLUS a call to action for your holiday season: capture your families oral histories. We’ll get some tips on how to be intentional about asking your elders about their past.
You can pre-order Damario’s debut book, Redeem A Nation, where books are sold.
Attorney Damario Solomon-Simmons is a civil and human rights attorney, movement strategist, and author. He is the Founder and President of Justice for Greenwood and serves as legal counsel for the last known living survivors of the 1921 Tulsa Race Massacre. His work prompted the first-ever U.S. Department of Justice review of the massacre, helped secure the City of Tulsa’s $105 million Greenwood Trust, and played a key role in restoring citizenship rights to Black Creek Indians.
CORRECTION: Mr. Solomon-Simmons states in this episode that reparations have been paid by the U.S.A. to the "State of Israel." Mr. Solomon-Simmons has alerted NLP that that is not factual, he meant "Holocaust Survivors."
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Native Land Pod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership
with Reason Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome home everyone.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm Angela Raie, a host of Native Lamppod, and it
is Solo Pod Day. There is so much going on
in the world, and we will get into so many
of those topics on Thursday for our main show. Today,
I have the opportunity, the privilege, and the pleasure to
speak to someone who is a dear brother, dear friend
to me. He is a civil and human rights attorney.
(00:34):
He has long represented the survivors of the Tulsa Race massacre,
also known as Black Wall Street in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or
Greenwood as many of you know as well. He is
the founder and executive director of Justice for Greenwood. And
today we're going to get into a discussion about reparations
(00:54):
his upcoming book.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
That will be available for pre order very soon.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
And so let's bring de Mario Solomon Simmons to the stage.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Thank you so much, Hey d.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
What's going on? Angela's good to see you as always.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Thank you, good to see you virtually too.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
First, I want to hear about this new book that
you are dropping because it is so timely, so important.
We are living in a day and age where you know,
fact free debates, alternative facts, erasing of history. So Redeem
a Nation feels like a really appropriate title for a
really challenging time.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Talk to us a little bit about the book.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, I'm really excited about this, been working over over
four years. Redeem a Nation book dot com. You can
go there the book. As you stated, we're all feeling
in Angela, We're all feeling that America's going to a
place and particularly in our lifetime, has never been to.
And one of the main arguments I'm making in my
book is to redeem this country, you must have reparatory
justice for black people. That's the only way you're going
(01:53):
to ever have a country that it says it is
on paper. If you don't redeem and have a repertory
of justice for black people, who will not have And
when I talk about redeem a nation, I am talking
about getting us back to a place that we have
never been before. We've never been redeemed. The only way
it can actually occur if there is real repair, and
(02:13):
then that repair will allow us to become the nation
that we say on paper we want to be people
talk about democracy and this and that there is no
democracy without reparatory justice for black people. And what I'm
excited about the book as I outline and explain the
people get behind the scenes of my twenty five plus
years of fighting for reparations both here for the Tulsa
Race Masacre and in general, but also in my think
(02:36):
Greenwood Principles, which you and I have talked about, where
I really lay out a plan of action that any
black community can utilize to create the type of Greenwoods
we need. So a lot of people think when they
think about Greenwood, they think about, like you said, black
Wall Street, which is fine, But black Wall Street was
just a part of Greenwood. The real story is the
community of Greenwood, and that community was created by five
(02:59):
particular principles. In the first was community love. We need
that more than ever in today's world. The second was
the freedom mind state. The third was ownership, and not
just ownership of tangible things, for ownership of ourselves, ownership
of our mentality, ownership of where we want to go
in life. Numberfore we had education and web concentration, and
number five with our real resilience. And these are things
(03:21):
I'm talking about in the book because we're going to
need all of those as we continue to go in
this Magna two point ozero world.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
You know, it's timely because it's the holiday season. You know,
Black folks in this country sometimes also celebrate Kwansas. So
I like the fact that the think Greenwood principles are
closely aligned with the principles of Kwansas. So hopefully folks
can get the book. Where can they get a DN
Is it available now for purchase?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
It's available now for pre order. Go to Redeem nationbook
dot com. Redeem nation book dot com get your pre order.
If you pre order now, and in this holiday season,
my publisher is going to provide you expert died in
a chapter about the book. So the book actually publishes Tuesday,
May twelve, twenty twenty six, which is just a few
weeks before the one hundred and fifth anniversary of the
(04:09):
Tulsa Race Massacres. So yes, it's very very timely. And
I'll tell you Angel you know, about writing a book.
I was wanting this out a long time ago, but
I'm really happy that it's coming out right now, right
before the Anna Persi and the mid terms. I think
it's gonna be something that's gonna really move our community forward.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And I'm waiting on editor's notes right now, so you
are ahead of me, my friend. As you know, I
will just say to you that it's also very timely
because we lost a heroin from the Tulsa Race massacre.
With Mother Fletcher and all that she's done to make
sure that she keeps or she kept the Tulsa Race
(04:48):
massacre at the front of our minds and of our hearts,
I want you just to talk a little bit about
Mother Fletcher. For those who do not know her, I
have the privilege of hearing her story. Can you please
just share a little bit about Mother Fletcher Fletcher giving
her recent passes.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, and thank you for that. It's been about two weeks,
and honestly, the pain is still there. Mother Fletcher, Viola
Fort Fletcher, we call her Mother Fletcher, was one hundred
and eleven years old. She was the oldest living survivor
of the Tulsa Race massacre. She was born in nineteen fourteen.
She was an extraordinary woman who really if you think
about Angela, she lived the entire arc of black people
(05:29):
in this country right born in a great community of
greenwood and got to enjoy a little bit of that
before she had to run for her life on a
horse and buggy for her family where everything was destroyed.
Therefore she didn't get to get her education. They were sharecroppers.
Then she grows up as a jim crow. She's dealing
with being a domestic worker for over seventy years, working
(05:50):
for pennies, literally not getting the proper pension that she needed.
And yet despite all of that heartache, she's still volunteered
during World War Two to work and shipyard to San Diego, California,
building navy ships. She still raised a family, she still
became a grandmother and a great grandmother and an auntie.
And then in her twilight years, when I met her,
(06:11):
As you know, and I've been working on this for
a long time, so I've known literally over a couple
hundred survivors I've represented, but I didn't meet Mother Flesh
until twenty twenty. When I met her, she was one
hundred and six years old, living by herself, living on
her own, and she could have easily said, look, let
me just live out my life. I'm good, but she decided, no,
I want to I want to get justice because every
(06:33):
night I still see the bodies in the street. I
still can fill the flames and see the flames. And
this lady was relentless committed to the calls. Not for
herself she would always say, you know, hey, I'm over
one hundred, but for her family before the broader black community.
She never missed the court date. We had several court days.
She never missed. She flew to Washington, DC on three occasions.
(06:54):
She met She testified in Congress on May nineteen, twenty
twenty one. We met the Vice President, Kamala Harris. You
helped that happen in Angela. Thanks again. She came back
to d C and twenty twenty three to meet with
the Department of Justice to push for investigation. She told
me one time early on, I said, mother Fletcher, you know,
what can we do for you something you always wanted
(07:16):
to do? She said, you know, I always wanted to
go to Africa, And she went to Africa. We were
able to the community get her and get her to
Africa with her little brother, Hughes van Ellis. She went
over to Africa one hundred and seven years old, spent
two and a half weeks. The lady was amazing. What
on one hundred and eleventh birthday, which was last May tenth,
we sang Happy Birthday to her and we were in
(07:36):
this pack restaurant, one hundred people there. We seen the
heavy birthday, the black version of course, and at the
end we just started clapping. But she grabbed my shoulder,
my arm. I said, you forgot to say it many
more to say this lady was full of energy. I
was with her. She died on Monday the twenty third.
(07:57):
I was with her Friday night already before at the hospital,
right next to a hospital bed, and she was engaged.
She was talking, and she was someone that was still
wanting to see justice toward dying Dae. So you know,
that's our charger. If nothing else, we want to make
sure that we continue to push forward because we got
all the fletchers all over this country. Yes, we have
all the fletchers in our families. We need to continue
(08:18):
to fight for them. And that's what it means the
redeem a nation. That's what it means to think greenwood.
That's what it means to fight for paratory justice.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
You know, I think it's so important in this work
to just deepen into the humanity for a second. You
said something that I never really considered. You've been working
on restorative and reparative justice for the survivors and the
descendants of Black Wall Street for as long as I
(08:46):
can remember, and I've known you since law school. Can
you talk about how many people you've lost in this
fight and what that feels like to you knowing that, Yes,
there's been a local solve, and we'll talk about that
in a moment, but there's not been this federal recognition.
You heard from the former president that he was going
(09:08):
to do something about it that didn't happen. I want
you to talk about, just for a moment, the humanity.
Like I already know your rage. You know, you and
I can go toe to toe at the rage level,
but just like what that impact is like when you
think about all the people you've come to knowing this work,
they're gone, they didn't get to see justice before they passed.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
What does that feel like to you?
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Wow? Man? Powerful question? And you know, something I talk
about in the book a lot is the human side
of it, because you know, being out front, being the
leader and all that, you always want to project and
be strength and beyond beyond, but you're right, I mean
so many people just come to mind outside with one
of our mentors, Charles Overtry. You know, he wasn't a
(09:50):
survivor or decendent, but he was someone who poured his
last fifteen years of his professional life. He poured into
this work, you know, and I poured into us so much,
and you know he's gone. You think about people like
Otis Clark, who was one hundred and nine when he
died back in two thousand and seven, and the doctor
Olivia Hooker who was over one hundred and four I
think when she died, and the first African American female
(10:13):
in the Coastguard. And just I traveled with these folks
so much, I mean, Wes Young. It's to so many
names and to know that they all died without justice.
And as you know, Angela, when I grew up here
in told So, I went to middle school on Greenwood Avenue,
never heard about the mask, I didn't learn about the
mass couch. I went to University of Clones playing football
(10:35):
nineteen ninety seven, and so at that point it sparked
something to me to say, Okay, we're going to make
sure people never forget about this. But also for our survivors.
They all thought very strongly that once the conspiracy of
silence was broken, that now that the world would know
what actually happened, understand that fifteen hundred and fifty homes
(10:56):
was burnt down, that over a billion dollars in property damage,
that eight thousand people were main homeless, that three thousand
people disappeared, etc. They believe strongly, Angela that justice will come,
and it didn't, and that really hurts me deeply because
(11:17):
they deserve that. And it also says what does it
say about our standing as black people in this country
that you can have the worst ever race massacre that's
on video, that has hundreds of pictures, that has hundreds
of insurance claims, that no one dispute to happen, and
yet the local state and the federal government said we're
not going to do anything about it. What does that
(11:37):
say about our standing as full citizens?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Right?
Speaker 3 (11:41):
The Equal Protection Clause, the fourteenth Amendment that's trying to
be repealed, What does that say about us right now?
And those things are it's difficult and hurtful on a
personal level, but when I think about our people, we
got such a long way to go, and that's why
I say, preparatory justice is it's the barometer if America
can actually be a democracy, can actually be what it
(12:01):
says on paper.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
You know, the thing that comes to mind now is
the number of folks who say, why would you continue
in this fight?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
They're never going to do this. And it's not white
people saying this.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
It's not Latino people saying this, it's not indigenous folks
saying this. These are black folks who say, you know,
we're wasting your time. There's no reason for us to be,
you know, trying to get reparations. We need to move
beyond it. It's time to go past this, right What
do you say to people who say that ignorant? You
(12:36):
know what, I'm not going to cuss because you don't.
I'm going to be on my best behavior today. But
I want to know what you say to people who
really don't think that we have we should have a
dog in this fight anymore, even though it is absolutely
rightfully ours.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
I would say a couple of things. One, they don't
know their own history and they don't respect their ancestors.
I mean, our people from the day we got on
this continent. Be it if we were indigenous folks like
black and Dish, and as folks who were enslaved, or
if folks coming from Africa with slave From day one,
we've been fighting for our humanity, were fighting for our
dignity and fighting for our just compensation. So if you're
(13:11):
willing to say I don't care about what my ancestors
fault for, I don't care about what's old to us,
then you know I really don't know. We don't. We're
not the same. We're not the same. Secondly, it is
a very function again, are we equal underneath the law
or not. If we're equal underneath the law, then we
are old conversation for what happened to us, not just
(13:34):
the physical labor, but what was taken from us, the
narratives that were taking from us, the spiritual breakdown from us.
I explained it like this, the every you know, people
that love the NFL, Right, I'm a football guy, the
NFL believe I.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Have never guessed. With those two footballs sitting behind you, d.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
I talk about things. The NFL believes in reparations. Jerry
Jones believes very strongly in reparations. If Jerry Jones, let
me explain what I mean. In the NFL. If you
are the best team, you pick last in the draft.
The next year, if you're the worst team, you pick
what pick person in the draft. It's reparations. So if
(14:14):
Jerry Jones and these billionaire NFL owners can care about reparations,
you don't want to care about reparations for your people,
your community. That's actually old. And then, thirdly, reparations sometimes
gets so esoteric. I think people don't realize it's just
as simple as someone hitting your car from behind and
damaging your car, breaking your leg, causing you to miss
(14:35):
time for work. But obviously they got to pay to
fix your car o Reusly they need to pay a fix,
you get your leg fixed, oriusly need to pay for
the time off for work, and the need to pay
some pain and suffering. It's just that simple. So if
you're saying you don't believe that we deserve reparations or
we should fight reparations, you don't believe that black folks
are full a citizens in the United States of America.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Okay, let me ask you this.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I don't like the devil, but I'm gonna be his
advocate for one second, because I do believe this is
the devil speaking when they do this. What about the
folks who are like, okay, but you're talking about if
your car was hit and you were injured, but we're
talking about your great great grandparent who was injured.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Why do you deserve to receive what they.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Didn't Because the injury is a continuing harm. And this
is exactly what we talked about in on litigation for
four years, a continuing harm. So again, if we've used
the massacre as an example, the massacre, it's just the
event that started the harm. Let me use another impetus, right,
let me use another example. You remember back during the
Environment administration, I think it was twenty eleven where we
(15:39):
had that big explosion in the Gulf of Mexico, the
BP explosion, and all that oil was just shooting out
underneath the war billions of millions of gallons of oil.
So that's the impetus. That's like the massacre hadened, that's
the injuring event. But that oil, even though they plugged
that hole within you know, a couple of weeks, but
that oil continued to teraminate, continue to kill wildlife, continue
(16:02):
to contaminate the air, they can continue to contaminate the water,
continue to cause people to miss and lose their livelihood.
And it continued for years and years and years, and
guess what, it's still continued. And it's the same thing
with the master, it's the same thing with enslavement. It's
the same thing with any of these issues ever renewed
that destroy families, stop wealth, broke up communities. That harm
(16:24):
is ongoing until you repair the harm. The harm is ongoing.
And I think we don't have to really understand sometimes
what that harm is, or we don't want to accept
that we are still a harmed people. I know some
people say stop being a victim. Well I was victimized. Yeah,
my parents were victimized. My grandparents were victimizds. So it's
not like we're gonna stop doing what we're doing. Look,
we're still fighting every day, but you still owe us
(16:46):
last thing. I would say, do you know, well two things. One,
when the massurpation of proclamation came out at first they
did in eighteen sixty two they made enslavement illegal and
washed in DC and they paid reparations to the enslavers
in Washington, right, But you know in England when they
(17:06):
outlawed enslavement, they passed the bill I think was eighteen
thirty three, eighteen thirty two. I talk about this in
the book. They actually paid reparations to enslavers, and that
payment lasted up to like twenty fifteen, until the last
payments were paid out. Okay, I'm saying that again, from
eight thousand to twenty fifteen, so they understand what it means.
(17:29):
Look at Haiti. Haiti had to pay reparations for getting
their own their own freedom from the eighteen hundreds all
the way up to like nineteen forty. So I want
what everybody else in the world. I want four justice.
I want equal protection underneath the law.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And recognition, like if you can apologize, certainly you can
repair that.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
This country not ready for that? Oh man, what else
did they say? I reject that?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Actually in many Sorry sorry, no, no, no, I'm just
I'm mumbling. I'm saying, like David say, the country's not
ready for it. But I reject that.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Actually, Oh, this country's ready for US. Countries pay reparations
to Japanese Americans, the country pay reparations to Native Americans.
That was old. This country's pay reparations to the state,
this country's pay reparations all around. It just becomes the
black folks that is a problem. And I think more
of black folks are glad you asked the question and
we're addressing our own community. More of us would make
(18:25):
uncompromised and stands that preparatory justice is due and make
that one of our top issues. Is not saying we're
not going to vote if you don't do this preparatory justice,
but make it one of our top issues that we
push and push and be uncompromising, that we're old like
these other people groups across the world and in this country.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
So this year there was as a result of a
historic election in Tulsa, you saw a sea change for
the first time that went beyond recognition, beyond an apology,
beyond a committee that is, you know, smoking mirrors.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
You saw some actual shifts happening.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Can you talk a little bit about your work with
the mayor of Tulsa and what happened as a result
of his election.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, shout out Mayor Monroe Nichols, the first African American
mayor in the city of Tulsa history. We had been
working for a long time, known him a long time
as a state legislator, and campaign for him, pushed him
to get elected. But I told him every step of
the way, Hey, as soon as as soon as you
get into the mayor's office, I'm gonna be at your doorstep.
(19:41):
And I was. And we presented to him what was
called Project Greenwood, which you could learn more about in
the book, but also at Justice Foragreen with dot org
Project Greenwood, which was our thirteen point plan for a
comprehensive reparations. We worked on that with him for a
number of months. He didn't accept everything we wanted, but
he did accept about six of our proposals, including making
(20:04):
Tulsa June first, Tulsa Race Mask of Reparation Commemorates day,
which Angel you said something very interested in your acknowledgement.
One thing I found out in this work is that
as much as people want to be compensated, for sure,
they also want to be acknowledged for what happened. And
so to have in law that this day will be
a citywide holiday to commemorate the masker, particularly in this
(20:27):
time of a rasure of black history, is huge. He
also put forward one hundred and five million dollar private
trust that will provide scholarships to massacre descendants. It will
provide a business grant, a grant to our surviving entities.
We had twelve surviving entities of the massacre, so they
would be eligible for these grants. They will also provide
(20:49):
grants for business owners who are descendants. Also, twenty four
million dollars in there is going to be provided for
housing in the Greenwood community. And there's some other aspect.
He released over forty five thousand documents that we have
been suing the city for years to receive, and so
you know, we made a lot of progress, and we
really appreciate Mayor Nichols for his leadership and stepping out
(21:11):
as we continue to push him to do more. We
still want for those outstanding claims over two hundred million
dollars worth of claims to be paid. We still want
for those who suffered the harm that we know were
math killed, like doctor A. C. Jackson. We still want
conversation for those things, and we will do both things
at the same time. We can. We can advocate while
(21:31):
working with someone at the same time, and I encourage
all of our listeners, all of your listeners, to remember
that be steadfast, but it's okay to also work with
someone and continue to push them.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And that I think is so important we've gotten to
the place.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I don't know when this shift happened.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
I'm argue maybe two thousand and eight, when people started
becoming fans of politicians rather than the folks who pay them,
you know. I think of President Obama, who you know,
was in the limelight, had a ton of fanfare. Folks
were so excited, including me, about electing the first black president.
(22:09):
But in that excitement, I think we lost our ability
to truly hold our elected officials feet to the fire
and require something from their service. And so to that point,
there's another elected official from state of California, Governor Gavin Newsom,
who has received a ton of fanfare because he has
(22:29):
been one of Donald Trump's chief trolls.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
But he's also trolling.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Us to Mario because he vetoed several bills that were
part of a rep reparations package earlier this year. I
talked about it on the podcast two days after the veto,
and Yoka's was hot.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
They were so.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Mad at me because they think that I should not
criticize Donald Trump's chief troll. But if somebody is not
doing right by black people, I don't care if they green, white,
purple Democrat, Republican Liberty or Jill Stein Green Party, like
I got equal heat for you. So I just I'm
curious to know when you consider Gavin Newsom's veto of
(23:13):
preferential you know, admission. They have legacy admissions, but that
is still in effect housing like, there were so many
programs that would have been beneficial and additive to black
people who are the descendants of enslaved people in this country.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
He vetoed those very tactical clear.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Programs, some of them didn't cost anything, like that preferential
admission piece to California state colleges.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
And then you look at Gavin.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
I mean, I'm sorry, Wes Moore in the state of Maryland,
Maryland's first black governor who veto to study. And so
I want to know if you've contrasted between the two
vetos and or a package of ve those and a
veto over here, and whether or not there's something for
(24:06):
us to learn in our approach and challenging those two
governors who are also likely to be twenty twenty eight contenders.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Well, first I'll start by saying you absolutely right that
people don't understand that politicians are tools. They're not our friends.
I talk about this essentially in the book that politics
in general is about who gets what when we're and
how how much. And so when you understand that and
understand that politicians are not our friends, they are tools,
they are delivery mechanisms. So we should be able to
(24:38):
criticize them anytime we feel like they're not giving us
the resources that we deserve. And so the fact that
Gavin newso veto those bills, I mean I was very disappointed.
Like you said, these bills didn't cost me, didn't cost anything.
You talked about the preferential treatment, I mean preferential admission,
also a bill to give preferential professional licenses people who
(24:58):
are from enslaved background. These are things that should happen
because the damage was done we already talked about as
a continuing harm. And if you can document that you
are from some family who has suffered this harm, you
deserve to have preparatory justice. And so I think it's
inexcusable that he vetoed those bills. It's very disappointed. The
(25:19):
one bill he did go through is a six million
dollar package to study who could be eligible for the reparations. Well,
I mean we study who could be eligible, Well, what
are they going to get and to be honest, that's
something that we are still working with the mayor here
in Tulsa to make sure that we understand who's eligible
to receive and make sure the right people receive it.
(25:41):
So I absolutely wish should continue to push Gaven Newson.
I'm like everybody else, I like to see how he's
you know, trolling the administration continue to do that.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
And Nicki Minaj, by the way, I'm just like the
trolling is is one thing, but like showing us that
you're with us is something completely different.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
You know, natural policy that's gonna move our community. That's
right in a in a comprehensive way. That's what we're
talking about here. We're talking about We're not talking about
geting a few people a few jobs. We're not trying
to put some black faces and high places. We're not
talking about just the leader of us having opportune were
trying to get something that's going to break up the
entirety of our community. Because again we talked about Greenwood,
it was about the entirety of the community. As to
(26:26):
rest more, I think it was very interesting and I
don't want to step on the toes of those some
friends of mine who are working very hard in the
state of Maryland, and how they feel about the veto.
But what I thought was very interesting, and I don't
think people picked up on it. Wes Moore said he
veatoed the bill because we already know what to do,
(26:47):
all right, That's what he said. So my point with
the NB if I was in Maryland, I would say, Okay,
since you said we already know what to do, I
would provide him legislation, specific legislation and the veto that yeah, okay,
you don't want to do that, you don't want to
do the study. You said, we already have this information. Okay,
here's the bills, just like just like in California, they
(27:10):
had a list of bills the newsom veto give Gavin,
give wes Moore a list of bills and see. Is
it really true that he said I want to do
the work. That's what he said. I'm gonna take a
brother from his work. He said, I want to do
the work. I want to do more study. So I
would love to see. And we have huge majorities. I
understand the Democratic majorities in Maryland, and I don't know
(27:33):
if they're in session as soon as they get in session.
I would bring those reparations bills one by one and
send them to Wes Moore and say, brother, we heard
you say you didn't want to study. Here's the work,
signed the bill, and then let's have a conversation after that.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
And I think that that is so important again because
to your point, systemic, historic, and ongoing harm has been
our story in this country. And it has not just
been at the federal level. It has not just been
at the state level. It has also been at the
local level. So I appreciate your work, dear brother, at
every level of government, all of your advocacy.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
It's it just it means the world.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
And so I want you to let people know how
they can support your work with justice for Greenwood and beyond.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Especially in this holiday season.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Y'all can't spend all your money at the Nike store,
and y'all still supposed to be out of target, so
hopefully you got some money for just.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Say that target. We've been out of it been hurting Meal,
but she's been still, she's been staying strong. Job said listen.
I would say three things real quickly. If we're about
about the wrap, support uh redeemer, nationbook dot com. Pick
that up as a holiday gift. Go to Justicefrogreenwood dot org.
You know, make a donation to the word, sign up
(28:51):
for our newsletter, and thoroughly I'm asking everybody that's listening
if we talked about mother Fletcher when we when she
passed away, we you know, we lost so much. You
have mother inflectors in your own family. I want you
to right now make a plan for the holidays when
you're gonna be with your elders, make a plan to
get their or history. Make a plan to sit down
(29:13):
with them, turn on the phone and record them. And
these are the five questions, and you can go. You
can go to j Justice agree with We do genealogy.
We can support We have seminars on there. These are
the five questions. Though who are we? You know? What
is our what is our names? Sometimes our names have changed,
it's spelled a different way. We don't understand all our
(29:36):
family lines. We don't know where we migrated from. So
number one, who are we? Number two? Where did we?
Where all have we lived? And why? Find out when
you were living in Georgia or Mississippi or or Oklahoma?
And then why did you move and work parts of
the family win. Number three, what did we build and
(29:57):
what have we lost? You know, you never know that
business owner, that church that I mean, I found out
my family, my father's family that I didn't know very
well until I got grown built. We built churches in
the nineteen teen that still stand, that still has the
name on it, Jake Simmons, the Simmons Chapel. Right, So
find out and then find out number four, what have
(30:19):
we survived as a family? You know, is it a hurricane,
is it a tornado? Was a family member lynch? We
somebody laid off? Will we homeless at one point? Get
your history and number five from your elders. Find out
what do they want the future generations of your family
to know? What values are important to them, what lessons
(30:41):
are important to them? What unfinished work do they want
to make sure that the great nieces and the great
grandsons continue. So if you don't do anything else from
this conversation today, I just encourage you to capture your
own history and keep that for your own family, because
our history and our families are the most important thing,
(31:03):
and it's the only thing that we have that we
can control, and it's what has sustained us over five
hundred years here in the United States or what is
now known in the United States.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
For absolutely Attorney de Mario Solomon Simmons, my brother and friend,
reparations advocate, true teller and now author, So make sure.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
You go order that book. Mag deem a nation.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
The happy holidays to you, my dear sister Mia, and
happy Kwanza. Shout out to those Kwanza principles to think green.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Will y'all get into it. Welcome home y'all.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Native Lampard is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership with
Reason Choice Media. For more podcast from iHeartRadio, visits iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Native Land Pod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership
with Reason Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome home everyone.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm Angela Raie, a host of Native Lamppod, and it
is Solo Pod Day. There is so much going on
in the world, and we will get into so many
of those topics on Thursday for our main show. Today,
I have the opportunity, the privilege, and the pleasure to
speak to someone who is a dear brother, dear friend
to me. He is a civil and human rights attorney.
(00:34):
He has long represented the survivors of the Tulsa Race massacre,
also known as Black Wall Street in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or
Greenwood as many of you know as well. He is
the founder and executive director of Justice for Greenwood. And
today we're going to get into a discussion about reparations
(00:54):
his upcoming book.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
That will be available for pre order very soon.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
And so let's bring de Mario Solomon Simmons to the stage.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Thank you so much, Hey d.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
What's going on? Angela's good to see you as always.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Thank you, good to see you virtually too.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
First, I want to hear about this new book that
you are dropping because it is so timely, so important.
We are living in a day and age where you know,
fact free debates, alternative facts, erasing of history. So Redeem
a Nation feels like a really appropriate title for a
really challenging time.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Talk to us a little bit about the book.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yeah, I'm really excited about this, been working over over
four years. Redeem a Nation book dot com. You can
go there the book. As you stated, we're all feeling
in Angela, We're all feeling that America's going to a
place and particularly in our lifetime, has never been to.
And one of the main arguments I'm making in my
book is to redeem this country, you must have reparatory
justice for black people. That's the only way you're going
(01:53):
to ever have a country that it says it is
on paper. If you don't redeem and have a repertory
of justice for black people, who will not have And
when I talk about redeem a nation, I am talking
about getting us back to a place that we have
never been before. We've never been redeemed. The only way
it can actually occur if there is real repair, and
(02:13):
then that repair will allow us to become the nation
that we say on paper we want to be people
talk about democracy and this and that there is no
democracy without reparatory justice for black people. And what I'm
excited about the book as I outline and explain the
people get behind the scenes of my twenty five plus
years of fighting for reparations both here for the Tulsa
Race Masacre and in general, but also in my think
(02:36):
Greenwood Principles, which you and I have talked about, where
I really lay out a plan of action that any
black community can utilize to create the type of Greenwoods
we need. So a lot of people think when they
think about Greenwood, they think about, like you said, black
Wall Street, which is fine, But black Wall Street was
just a part of Greenwood. The real story is the
community of Greenwood, and that community was created by five
(02:59):
particular principles. In the first was community love. We need
that more than ever in today's world. The second was
the freedom mind state. The third was ownership, and not
just ownership of tangible things, for ownership of ourselves, ownership
of our mentality, ownership of where we want to go
in life. Numberfore we had education and web concentration, and
number five with our real resilience. And these are things
(03:21):
I'm talking about in the book because we're going to
need all of those as we continue to go in
this Magna two point ozero world.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
You know, it's timely because it's the holiday season. You know,
Black folks in this country sometimes also celebrate Kwansas. So
I like the fact that the think Greenwood principles are
closely aligned with the principles of Kwansas. So hopefully folks
can get the book. Where can they get a DN
Is it available now for purchase?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
It's available now for pre order. Go to Redeem nationbook
dot com. Redeem nation book dot com get your pre order.
If you pre order now, and in this holiday season,
my publisher is going to provide you expert died in
a chapter about the book. So the book actually publishes Tuesday,
May twelve, twenty twenty six, which is just a few
weeks before the one hundred and fifth anniversary of the
(04:09):
Tulsa Race Massacres. So yes, it's very very timely. And
I'll tell you Angel you know, about writing a book.
I was wanting this out a long time ago, but
I'm really happy that it's coming out right now, right
before the Anna Persi and the mid terms. I think
it's gonna be something that's gonna really move our community forward.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And I'm waiting on editor's notes right now, so you
are ahead of me, my friend. As you know, I
will just say to you that it's also very timely
because we lost a heroin from the Tulsa Race massacre.
With Mother Fletcher and all that she's done to make
sure that she keeps or she kept the Tulsa Race
(04:48):
massacre at the front of our minds and of our hearts,
I want you just to talk a little bit about
Mother Fletcher. For those who do not know her, I
have the privilege of hearing her story. Can you please
just share a little bit about Mother Fletcher Fletcher giving
her recent passes.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yeah, and thank you for that. It's been about two weeks,
and honestly, the pain is still there. Mother Fletcher, Viola
Fort Fletcher, we call her Mother Fletcher, was one hundred
and eleven years old. She was the oldest living survivor
of the Tulsa Race massacre. She was born in nineteen fourteen.
She was an extraordinary woman who really if you think
about Angela, she lived the entire arc of black people
(05:29):
in this country right born in a great community of
greenwood and got to enjoy a little bit of that
before she had to run for her life on a
horse and buggy for her family where everything was destroyed.
Therefore she didn't get to get her education. They were sharecroppers.
Then she grows up as a jim crow. She's dealing
with being a domestic worker for over seventy years, working
(05:50):
for pennies, literally not getting the proper pension that she needed.
And yet despite all of that heartache, she's still volunteered
during World War Two to work and shipyard to San Diego, California,
building navy ships. She still raised a family, she still
became a grandmother and a great grandmother and an auntie.
And then in her twilight years, when I met her,
(06:11):
As you know, and I've been working on this for
a long time, so I've known literally over a couple
hundred survivors I've represented, but I didn't meet Mother Flesh
until twenty twenty. When I met her, she was one
hundred and six years old, living by herself, living on
her own, and she could have easily said, look, let
me just live out my life. I'm good, but she decided, no,
I want to I want to get justice because every
(06:33):
night I still see the bodies in the street. I
still can fill the flames and see the flames. And
this lady was relentless committed to the calls. Not for
herself she would always say, you know, hey, I'm over
one hundred, but for her family before the broader black community.
She never missed the court date. We had several court days.
She never missed. She flew to Washington, DC on three occasions.
(06:54):
She met She testified in Congress on May nineteen, twenty
twenty one. We met the Vice President, Kamala Harris. You
helped that happen in Angela. Thanks again. She came back
to d C and twenty twenty three to meet with
the Department of Justice to push for investigation. She told
me one time early on, I said, mother Fletcher, you know,
what can we do for you something you always wanted
(07:16):
to do? She said, you know, I always wanted to
go to Africa, And she went to Africa. We were
able to the community get her and get her to
Africa with her little brother, Hughes van Ellis. She went
over to Africa one hundred and seven years old, spent
two and a half weeks. The lady was amazing. What
on one hundred and eleventh birthday, which was last May tenth,
we sang Happy Birthday to her and we were in
(07:36):
this pack restaurant, one hundred people there. We seen the
heavy birthday, the black version of course, and at the
end we just started clapping. But she grabbed my shoulder,
my arm. I said, you forgot to say it many
more to say this lady was full of energy. I
was with her. She died on Monday the twenty third.
(07:57):
I was with her Friday night already before at the hospital,
right next to a hospital bed, and she was engaged.
She was talking, and she was someone that was still
wanting to see justice toward dying Dae. So you know,
that's our charger. If nothing else, we want to make
sure that we continue to push forward because we got
all the fletchers all over this country. Yes, we have
all the fletchers in our families. We need to continue
(08:18):
to fight for them. And that's what it means the
redeem a nation. That's what it means to think greenwood.
That's what it means to fight for paratory justice.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
You know, I think it's so important in this work
to just deepen into the humanity for a second. You
said something that I never really considered. You've been working
on restorative and reparative justice for the survivors and the
descendants of Black Wall Street for as long as I
(08:46):
can remember, and I've known you since law school. Can
you talk about how many people you've lost in this
fight and what that feels like to you knowing that, Yes,
there's been a local solve, and we'll talk about that
in a moment, but there's not been this federal recognition.
You heard from the former president that he was going
(09:08):
to do something about it that didn't happen. I want
you to talk about, just for a moment, the humanity.
Like I already know your rage. You know, you and
I can go toe to toe at the rage level,
but just like what that impact is like when you
think about all the people you've come to knowing this work,
they're gone, they didn't get to see justice before they passed.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
What does that feel like to you?
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Wow? Man? Powerful question? And you know, something I talk
about in the book a lot is the human side
of it, because you know, being out front, being the
leader and all that, you always want to project and
be strength and beyond beyond, but you're right, I mean
so many people just come to mind outside with one
of our mentors, Charles Overtry. You know, he wasn't a
(09:50):
survivor or decendent, but he was someone who poured his
last fifteen years of his professional life. He poured into
this work, you know, and I poured into us so much,
and you know he's gone. You think about people like
Otis Clark, who was one hundred and nine when he
died back in two thousand and seven, and the doctor
Olivia Hooker who was over one hundred and four I
think when she died, and the first African American female
(10:13):
in the Coastguard. And just I traveled with these folks
so much, I mean, Wes Young. It's to so many
names and to know that they all died without justice.
And as you know, Angela, when I grew up here
in told So, I went to middle school on Greenwood Avenue,
never heard about the mask, I didn't learn about the
mass couch. I went to University of Clones playing football
(10:35):
nineteen ninety seven, and so at that point it sparked
something to me to say, Okay, we're going to make
sure people never forget about this. But also for our survivors.
They all thought very strongly that once the conspiracy of
silence was broken, that now that the world would know
what actually happened, understand that fifteen hundred and fifty homes
(10:56):
was burnt down, that over a billion dollars in property damage,
that eight thousand people were main homeless, that three thousand
people disappeared, etc. They believe strongly, Angela that justice will come,
and it didn't, and that really hurts me deeply because
(11:17):
they deserve that. And it also says what does it
say about our standing as black people in this country
that you can have the worst ever race massacre that's
on video, that has hundreds of pictures, that has hundreds
of insurance claims, that no one dispute to happen, and
yet the local state and the federal government said we're
not going to do anything about it. What does that
(11:37):
say about our standing as full citizens?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Right?
Speaker 3 (11:41):
The Equal Protection Clause, the fourteenth Amendment that's trying to
be repealed, What does that say about us right now?
And those things are it's difficult and hurtful on a
personal level, but when I think about our people, we
got such a long way to go, and that's why
I say, preparatory justice is it's the barometer if America
can actually be a democracy, can actually be what it
(12:01):
says on paper.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
You know, the thing that comes to mind now is
the number of folks who say, why would you continue
in this fight?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
They're never going to do this. And it's not white
people saying this.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
It's not Latino people saying this, it's not indigenous folks
saying this. These are black folks who say, you know,
we're wasting your time. There's no reason for us to be,
you know, trying to get reparations. We need to move
beyond it. It's time to go past this, right What
do you say to people who say that ignorant? You
(12:36):
know what, I'm not going to cuss because you don't.
I'm going to be on my best behavior today. But
I want to know what you say to people who
really don't think that we have we should have a
dog in this fight anymore, even though it is absolutely
rightfully ours.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
I would say a couple of things. One, they don't
know their own history and they don't respect their ancestors.
I mean, our people from the day we got on
this continent. Be it if we were indigenous folks like
black and Dish, and as folks who were enslaved, or
if folks coming from Africa with slave From day one,
we've been fighting for our humanity, were fighting for our
dignity and fighting for our just compensation. So if you're
(13:11):
willing to say I don't care about what my ancestors
fault for, I don't care about what's old to us,
then you know I really don't know. We don't. We're
not the same. We're not the same. Secondly, it is
a very function again, are we equal underneath the law
or not. If we're equal underneath the law, then we
are old conversation for what happened to us, not just
(13:34):
the physical labor, but what was taken from us, the
narratives that were taking from us, the spiritual breakdown from us.
I explained it like this, the every you know, people
that love the NFL, Right, I'm a football guy, the
NFL believe I.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Have never guessed. With those two footballs sitting behind you, d.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
I talk about things. The NFL believes in reparations. Jerry
Jones believes very strongly in reparations. If Jerry Jones, let
me explain what I mean. In the NFL. If you
are the best team, you pick last in the draft.
The next year, if you're the worst team, you pick
what pick person in the draft. It's reparations. So if
(14:14):
Jerry Jones and these billionaire NFL owners can care about reparations,
you don't want to care about reparations for your people,
your community. That's actually old. And then, thirdly, reparations sometimes
gets so esoteric. I think people don't realize it's just
as simple as someone hitting your car from behind and
damaging your car, breaking your leg, causing you to miss
(14:35):
time for work. But obviously they got to pay to
fix your car o Reusly they need to pay a fix,
you get your leg fixed, oriusly need to pay for
the time off for work, and the need to pay
some pain and suffering. It's just that simple. So if
you're saying you don't believe that we deserve reparations or
we should fight reparations, you don't believe that black folks
are full a citizens in the United States of America.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Okay, let me ask you this.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I don't like the devil, but I'm gonna be his
advocate for one second, because I do believe this is
the devil speaking when they do this. What about the
folks who are like, okay, but you're talking about if
your car was hit and you were injured, but we're
talking about your great great grandparent who was injured.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Why do you deserve to receive what they.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Didn't Because the injury is a continuing harm. And this
is exactly what we talked about in on litigation for
four years, a continuing harm. So again, if we've used
the massacre as an example, the massacre, it's just the
event that started the harm. Let me use another impetus, right,
let me use another example. You remember back during the
Environment administration, I think it was twenty eleven where we
(15:39):
had that big explosion in the Gulf of Mexico, the
BP explosion, and all that oil was just shooting out
underneath the war billions of millions of gallons of oil.
So that's the impetus. That's like the massacre hadened, that's
the injuring event. But that oil, even though they plugged
that hole within you know, a couple of weeks, but
that oil continued to teraminate, continue to kill wildlife, continue
(16:02):
to contaminate the air, they can continue to contaminate the water,
continue to cause people to miss and lose their livelihood.
And it continued for years and years and years, and
guess what, it's still continued. And it's the same thing
with the master, it's the same thing with enslavement. It's
the same thing with any of these issues ever renewed
that destroy families, stop wealth, broke up communities. That harm
(16:24):
is ongoing until you repair the harm. The harm is ongoing.
And I think we don't have to really understand sometimes
what that harm is, or we don't want to accept
that we are still a harmed people. I know some
people say stop being a victim. Well I was victimized. Yeah,
my parents were victimized. My grandparents were victimizds. So it's
not like we're gonna stop doing what we're doing. Look,
we're still fighting every day, but you still owe us
(16:46):
last thing. I would say, do you know, well two things. One,
when the massurpation of proclamation came out at first they
did in eighteen sixty two they made enslavement illegal and
washed in DC and they paid reparations to the enslavers
in Washington, right, But you know in England when they
(17:06):
outlawed enslavement, they passed the bill I think was eighteen
thirty three, eighteen thirty two. I talk about this in
the book. They actually paid reparations to enslavers, and that
payment lasted up to like twenty fifteen, until the last
payments were paid out. Okay, I'm saying that again, from
eight thousand to twenty fifteen, so they understand what it means.
(17:29):
Look at Haiti. Haiti had to pay reparations for getting
their own their own freedom from the eighteen hundreds all
the way up to like nineteen forty. So I want
what everybody else in the world. I want four justice.
I want equal protection underneath the law.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And recognition, like if you can apologize, certainly you can
repair that.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
This country not ready for that? Oh man, what else
did they say? I reject that?
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Actually in many Sorry sorry, no, no, no, I'm just
I'm mumbling. I'm saying, like David say, the country's not
ready for it. But I reject that.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Actually, Oh, this country's ready for US. Countries pay reparations
to Japanese Americans, the country pay reparations to Native Americans.
That was old. This country's pay reparations to the state,
this country's pay reparations all around. It just becomes the
black folks that is a problem. And I think more
of black folks are glad you asked the question and
we're addressing our own community. More of us would make
(18:25):
uncompromised and stands that preparatory justice is due and make
that one of our top issues. Is not saying we're
not going to vote if you don't do this preparatory justice,
but make it one of our top issues that we
push and push and be uncompromising, that we're old like
these other people groups across the world and in this country.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
So this year there was as a result of a
historic election in Tulsa, you saw a sea change for
the first time that went beyond recognition, beyond an apology,
beyond a committee that is, you know, smoking mirrors.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
You saw some actual shifts happening.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Can you talk a little bit about your work with
the mayor of Tulsa and what happened as a result
of his election.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, shout out Mayor Monroe Nichols, the first African American
mayor in the city of Tulsa history. We had been
working for a long time, known him a long time
as a state legislator, and campaign for him, pushed him
to get elected. But I told him every step of
the way, Hey, as soon as as soon as you
get into the mayor's office, I'm gonna be at your doorstep.
(19:41):
And I was. And we presented to him what was
called Project Greenwood, which you could learn more about in
the book, but also at Justice Foragreen with dot org
Project Greenwood, which was our thirteen point plan for a
comprehensive reparations. We worked on that with him for a
number of months. He didn't accept everything we wanted, but
he did accept about six of our proposals, including making
(20:04):
Tulsa June first, Tulsa Race Mask of Reparation Commemorates day,
which Angel you said something very interested in your acknowledgement.
One thing I found out in this work is that
as much as people want to be compensated, for sure,
they also want to be acknowledged for what happened. And
so to have in law that this day will be
a citywide holiday to commemorate the masker, particularly in this
(20:27):
time of a rasure of black history, is huge. He
also put forward one hundred and five million dollar private
trust that will provide scholarships to massacre descendants. It will
provide a business grant, a grant to our surviving entities.
We had twelve surviving entities of the massacre, so they
would be eligible for these grants. They will also provide
(20:49):
grants for business owners who are descendants. Also, twenty four
million dollars in there is going to be provided for
housing in the Greenwood community. And there's some other aspect.
He released over forty five thousand documents that we have
been suing the city for years to receive, and so
you know, we made a lot of progress, and we
really appreciate Mayor Nichols for his leadership and stepping out
(21:11):
as we continue to push him to do more. We
still want for those outstanding claims over two hundred million
dollars worth of claims to be paid. We still want
for those who suffered the harm that we know were
math killed, like doctor A. C. Jackson. We still want
conversation for those things, and we will do both things
at the same time. We can. We can advocate while
(21:31):
working with someone at the same time, and I encourage
all of our listeners, all of your listeners, to remember
that be steadfast, but it's okay to also work with
someone and continue to push them.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And that I think is so important we've gotten to
the place.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I don't know when this shift happened.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
I'm argue maybe two thousand and eight, when people started
becoming fans of politicians rather than the folks who pay them,
you know. I think of President Obama, who you know,
was in the limelight, had a ton of fanfare. Folks
were so excited, including me, about electing the first black president.
(22:09):
But in that excitement, I think we lost our ability
to truly hold our elected officials feet to the fire
and require something from their service. And so to that point,
there's another elected official from state of California, Governor Gavin Newsom,
who has received a ton of fanfare because he has
(22:29):
been one of Donald Trump's chief trolls.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
But he's also trolling.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Us to Mario because he vetoed several bills that were
part of a rep reparations package earlier this year. I
talked about it on the podcast two days after the veto,
and Yoka's was hot.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
They were so.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Mad at me because they think that I should not
criticize Donald Trump's chief troll. But if somebody is not
doing right by black people, I don't care if they green, white,
purple Democrat, Republican Liberty or Jill Stein Green Party, like
I got equal heat for you. So I just I'm
curious to know when you consider Gavin Newsom's veto of
(23:13):
preferential you know, admission. They have legacy admissions, but that
is still in effect housing like, there were so many
programs that would have been beneficial and additive to black
people who are the descendants of enslaved people in this country.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
He vetoed those very tactical clear.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Programs, some of them didn't cost anything, like that preferential
admission piece to California state colleges.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
And then you look at Gavin.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
I mean, I'm sorry, Wes Moore in the state of Maryland,
Maryland's first black governor who veto to study. And so
I want to know if you've contrasted between the two
vetos and or a package of ve those and a
veto over here, and whether or not there's something for
(24:06):
us to learn in our approach and challenging those two
governors who are also likely to be twenty twenty eight contenders.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Well, first I'll start by saying you absolutely right that
people don't understand that politicians are tools. They're not our friends.
I talk about this essentially in the book that politics
in general is about who gets what when we're and
how how much. And so when you understand that and
understand that politicians are not our friends, they are tools,
they are delivery mechanisms. So we should be able to
(24:38):
criticize them anytime we feel like they're not giving us
the resources that we deserve. And so the fact that
Gavin newso veto those bills, I mean I was very disappointed.
Like you said, these bills didn't cost me, didn't cost anything.
You talked about the preferential treatment, I mean preferential admission,
also a bill to give preferential professional licenses people who
(24:58):
are from enslaved background. These are things that should happen
because the damage was done we already talked about as
a continuing harm. And if you can document that you
are from some family who has suffered this harm, you
deserve to have preparatory justice. And so I think it's
inexcusable that he vetoed those bills. It's very disappointed. The
(25:19):
one bill he did go through is a six million
dollar package to study who could be eligible for the reparations. Well,
I mean we study who could be eligible, Well, what
are they going to get and to be honest, that's
something that we are still working with the mayor here
in Tulsa to make sure that we understand who's eligible
to receive and make sure the right people receive it.
(25:41):
So I absolutely wish should continue to push Gaven Newson.
I'm like everybody else, I like to see how he's
you know, trolling the administration continue to do that.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
And Nicki Minaj, by the way, I'm just like the
trolling is is one thing, but like showing us that
you're with us is something completely different.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
You know, natural policy that's gonna move our community. That's
right in a in a comprehensive way. That's what we're
talking about here. We're talking about We're not talking about
geting a few people a few jobs. We're not trying
to put some black faces and high places. We're not
talking about just the leader of us having opportune were
trying to get something that's going to break up the
entirety of our community. Because again we talked about Greenwood,
it was about the entirety of the community. As to
(26:26):
rest more, I think it was very interesting and I
don't want to step on the toes of those some
friends of mine who are working very hard in the
state of Maryland, and how they feel about the veto.
But what I thought was very interesting, and I don't
think people picked up on it. Wes Moore said he
veatoed the bill because we already know what to do,
(26:47):
all right, That's what he said. So my point with
the NB if I was in Maryland, I would say, Okay,
since you said we already know what to do, I
would provide him legislation, specific legislation and the veto that yeah, okay,
you don't want to do that, you don't want to
do the study. You said, we already have this information. Okay,
here's the bills, just like just like in California, they
(27:10):
had a list of bills the newsom veto give Gavin,
give wes Moore a list of bills and see. Is
it really true that he said I want to do
the work. That's what he said. I'm gonna take a
brother from his work. He said, I want to do
the work. I want to do more study. So I
would love to see. And we have huge majorities. I
understand the Democratic majorities in Maryland, and I don't know
(27:33):
if they're in session as soon as they get in session.
I would bring those reparations bills one by one and
send them to Wes Moore and say, brother, we heard
you say you didn't want to study. Here's the work,
signed the bill, and then let's have a conversation after that.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
And I think that that is so important again because
to your point, systemic, historic, and ongoing harm has been
our story in this country. And it has not just
been at the federal level. It has not just been
at the state level. It has also been at the
local level. So I appreciate your work, dear brother, at
every level of government, all of your advocacy.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
It's it just it means the world.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
And so I want you to let people know how
they can support your work with justice for Greenwood and beyond.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Especially in this holiday season.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Y'all can't spend all your money at the Nike store,
and y'all still supposed to be out of target, so
hopefully you got some money for just.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Say that target. We've been out of it been hurting Meal,
but she's been still, she's been staying strong. Job said listen.
I would say three things real quickly. If we're about
about the wrap, support uh redeemer, nationbook dot com. Pick
that up as a holiday gift. Go to Justicefrogreenwood dot org.
You know, make a donation to the word, sign up
(28:51):
for our newsletter, and thoroughly I'm asking everybody that's listening
if we talked about mother Fletcher when we when she
passed away, we you know, we lost so much. You
have mother inflectors in your own family. I want you
to right now make a plan for the holidays when
you're gonna be with your elders, make a plan to
get their or history. Make a plan to sit down
(29:13):
with them, turn on the phone and record them. And
these are the five questions, and you can go. You
can go to j Justice agree with We do genealogy.
We can support We have seminars on there. These are
the five questions. Though who are we? You know? What
is our what is our names? Sometimes our names have changed,
it's spelled a different way. We don't understand all our
(29:36):
family lines. We don't know where we migrated from. So
number one, who are we? Number two? Where did we?
Where all have we lived? And why? Find out when
you were living in Georgia or Mississippi or or Oklahoma?
And then why did you move and work parts of
the family win. Number three, what did we build and
(29:57):
what have we lost? You know, you never know that
business owner, that church that I mean, I found out
my family, my father's family that I didn't know very
well until I got grown built. We built churches in
the nineteen teen that still stand, that still has the
name on it, Jake Simmons, the Simmons Chapel. Right, So
find out and then find out number four, what have
(30:19):
we survived as a family? You know, is it a hurricane,
is it a tornado? Was a family member lynch? We
somebody laid off? Will we homeless at one point? Get
your history and number five from your elders. Find out
what do they want the future generations of your family
to know? What values are important to them, what lessons
(30:41):
are important to them? What unfinished work do they want
to make sure that the great nieces and the great
grandsons continue. So if you don't do anything else from
this conversation today, I just encourage you to capture your
own history and keep that for your own family, because
our history and our families are the most important thing,
(31:03):
and it's the only thing that we have that we
can control, and it's what has sustained us over five
hundred years here in the United States or what is
now known in the United States.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
For absolutely Attorney de Mario Solomon Simmons, my brother and friend,
reparations advocate, true teller and now author, So make sure.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
You go order that book. Mag deem a nation.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
The happy holidays to you, my dear sister Mia, and
happy Kwanza. Shout out to those Kwanza principles to think green.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Will y'all get into it. Welcome home y'all.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Native Lampard is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership with
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Hosts And Creators
Tiffany Cross
Andrew Gillum
Angela Rye
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