August 8, 2025 • 29 mins
On this week’s MiniPod, our hosts Angela Rye and Andrew Gillum gotta talk more about redistricting. Trump is putting pressure on Republican-controlled states to redraw their electoral maps in order to give Republicans more seats in congress, an anti-democratic practice known as gerrymandering. This practice typically undercuts the representation of the Black community and others, reducing political influence on a state and national level.
Our hosts dig into the mechanics of how electoral maps are created, what the rules are now, and what they could be.
If you’d like to submit a question, check out our tutorial video: www.instagram.com/reel/C5j_oBXLIg0/
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Angela Rye as host, executive producer and cofounder of Reasoned Choice Media; Tiffany Cross as host and producer, Andrew Gillum as host and producer, and Lauren Hansen as executive producer; Loren Mychael is our research producer, and Nikolas Harter is our editor and producer. Special thanks to Chris Morrow and Lenard McKelvey, co-founders of Reasoned Choice Media.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Native Lampod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership with
Reason Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
If you believe that there is a law, please tell me,
because we just had the voting rights that gut it.
So please tell me what law, particularly in the South,
previns us from happening. And I just want to just
one bit of it. Like I was in the General
Assembly in South Carolina when we drew these lines, and
so I've actually seen these lines be drawn.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
And what I'm.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Absolutely telling you is places like Tim Scott's old South
Carolina first District right where he seeded black voters to
Jim Clyburn. That's exactly what he did. It made Jim
Cliburn's district more African American. It made Tim Scott's district
more white so that people would vote for them.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Change that?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Do you change it by running away and delaying the
process and.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Not elected commissioners.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Vote on it? Yeah, that's that. Just again, everybody we
were talking about in the main episode of Native Lampot
this week, this whole redistricting fight that's happening around the country.
What's at stake? And Frankly what's the right way to go.
We've seen members of the legislature.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Andrew, this is Native Lampod. Welcome home, y'all. This and
mini pod. We just jumped right.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Why should I say Native lamp welcome.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
We didn't welcome. We just were like Also in the
main episode.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Was yeah, yeah, we skipped the part welcome home everybody.
This is uh the mini pod this week for Native Lampod.
We're acting. We're acting like y'all know exactly what's going on.
I'm Andrew Gillum co host along with Angela Rye and
an Abstenia, our sister Tiffany Tippany Cross who was in
the congo.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
We had a lot to say. So Tif we actually
glad you got here today because we need to take
all your time. We were claiming your time today. Andrew,
You know what, this reminded me of starting a podcast
like that. Reminded me of picking up the phone with
Eddie Rakhas.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Because he when you literally conversation yes.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
So anyway, so anyway what yeah, what do.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
You say, daddy? Where are you coming back from?
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yeah, bring me to the top of the conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Well, we are talking about redistricting and we're trying not
to make this topic glaze over everybody's eyes and brows
by making it frankly, as front and center and as
local as we can. Right there, you saw the clip
of our good friend Bacari Sellers, who is a former
member of the South Carolina Legislature, talking about what his
(02:29):
experience was drawing districts in that state, House districts, center districts,
and of course congressional districts and that state. And his
last point of that video he was making to response
to the question of how should these maps be drawn?
Rather than politically it's his argument was for drawing these
maps using a non partisan redistricting commission to do it
(02:51):
different than what the State of Texas is the attempting
to do right now, which is to basically have the legislature,
a political body, draw the congressional districts. Angela, where do
you put the merits of independent versus political drawing of lines?
Speaker 4 (03:08):
So I think again, you know how so next year
is going to be the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary
of the declaration of independence. So there's this idea that, like,
we hold these truths, but who holds these truths?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Right?
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Like every if the truths weren't designed to be held
by everyone. At what point are they held by everyone?
And I think what is incredible about our friends who
are institutionalists like Bakari, is there's, you know, this aspiration
that we are striving to get to and we think
that if we put people in position to think the
(03:44):
way they ought, then they will do the things they
ought to do. But that's not always the case. So
when you talk about these independent commissions, Andrew, the question becomes,
you know, are the independent politically? This woman who he
was arguing with on on CNN talks about, well, now
we have AI to draw maps. AI has a bias
(04:05):
because there's someone who built they have right that, so
now it carries their bias. If someone is independent politically,
well where do they lean economically? Do they believe people
who are poor or disenfranchised or incarcerated deserve to also
have a vote in Congress? And a lot of people
don't understand that people are counted for the sake of
(04:29):
population in congressional and state districts when they're incarcerated, But
a lot of them still don't have a vote if
the laws say so in their state. What is my point,
you can be independent and bipartisan or nonpartisan and still
have bias. I for one, in this country, especially right now,
(04:50):
while fascists run the government, while J sixers are running
around the country imp implementing their will at their will,
even doging their will an upon us, I struggle with
the idea that an independent commission can do the right thing.
We have seen where members of Congress, particularly my former
(05:11):
bosses CBC members, have been harmed by these independent commissions.
Bacari brought up something where he talked about Congressman Clyburn.
Congressman Clyburn, who I love, has been criticized often for
maintaining a district that I believe if someone could fact
check this on the show and text it to me,
but I believe his district is at least sixty percent black.
(05:34):
I do want to triple check that, because a lot
of members of Congress say at this point, mister Cliburn
really doesn't need a sixty percent plus black district because
of how much he's impacted South Carolina all the things
that he's done. Well, mister Cliburn would argue, well, this
is for the person who comes after me, right, And
some people would still say, well, he doesn't need it.
(05:55):
Maybe it's fifty, maybe it's forty. On the on the
other hand, I promise you I'm going somewhere. On the
other hand, Congressman Bobby Scott has said, I don't need
a fifty sixty seventy percent black district. Carve up my
district so it's more geographically aligned and in tune with
what we need to get accomplished geographically. Because I could
(06:18):
win with a thirty five forty percent black district. Let's
create another black district in Virginia, which they've done so
now Jennifer McClellan occupies that seat. It was a seat
that was formerly held by Donald mckeechen, who got rest.
His soul is no longer with us, lolo. I appreciate that,
(06:41):
but it was for mister Cliburn, not Thompson. So all
good there. I think we only have one majority district
in Mississippi period. But I'm actually looking for the numbers
for mister Cliburn because their a position is that there
could be two majority minority districts in South Carolina. My
point in saying all of that is, so mister Cliburn
is forty seven percent black, and so I don't know
(07:03):
what the argument has been historically. I know before it
was they could at least carve out one more black district.
He agrees with that, but for whatever reason, that number
was higher. So I'm saying all that to say independent
or not, it's never truly independent AI or not. It
doesn't mean that it's no longer biased. But I think
right now what we are having to reckon with is
(07:24):
our permanent interest. That means that we have to move
in our reality. It's a reality of war. It is
not an ideal It is an ideology war, but it's
not an ideal situation. We're not in an ideal situation,
so we shouldn't have ideal commissions.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
That's fair, I mean, I think so in an equalized
in a righteous world, where all things, you know, were equal,
when people follow the law and didn't detempt to manipulate
the laws to their own political advantage, which is what
we're up against right now. The long term impact of
allowing the Texas legislature to reach draw this district and
(08:01):
we draw the lines in the rules to advantage them
by five seats if they're in results and they're in goal,
may be the demise of the democracy as we know it,
meaning those members can be holdouts when it comes around
to the next point of counting the electoral college and
they say we reject you know, there's a majority there
to reject what the electoral college members say and leave
(08:21):
Donald Trump in office. We've never had that scenario, but
we also never had that scenario tested. And right now
under these lawless folks who are so power hungry, we
don't really know what we will get as a result
of the conundrum. I think we find ourselves, particularly those
of us who are kind of good government champions, you know,
that we should set the rules to be fair and
(08:41):
equitable and then let how the politics of it play out.
Is that in many democratic states they have already gone
the route of setting up these independent, these quote independent
redistricting commissions, seeding away the power of the governor or
the legislature from being able to bigfoot and have their
way over these commissions. Well republican states, including you know
(09:04):
in my own, they continue to allow the political drawing
of lines. They have no interest in good government. Their
only interest is in maintaining and keeping power, not to
ensure that we've got a fair and representative democracy. And
so we're hearing from democratic governors across the country saying, hey, look,
if y'all have changed in the rules, we're willing to
(09:24):
meet you there. We will fight you based off of
those rules being changed, except not being able to do
it unilaterally because they've got these redistrict commissions that are
right now empowered to do what it is that they've
been tasked with doing, which is to draw these districts,
and to do so without any partisan interest whatsoever, but
rather than fairness around those maps. So democratic governors are
(09:48):
in many ways already handicapped in this fight because they
are bound by these redistrict commissions. I think what made
Kathy Hochel so distinct, as we've heard her speak this week,
is that they too have a Registrian Commission, which she
is prepared to disband, yeah, in concert with other legislative bodies,
(10:08):
so that they will have the ability to do with
the Republicans in Texas are doing. What's just to say, fine,
we'll just draw Republicans right out of their seats and
make sure that we only create seats that are accessible
by Democrats. Is it the is it the long term
fair thing to do? Or is it the right thing
in this moment to do to eventually save off this
attack on democracy?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Can she do that? Andrew? For those listening at home
that are saying, if there's an independent commission that was
stood up like by the state legislature, I know all
of these states are different. Who has the authority in
New York, for example, to do this? And is it
different for Gavin? We have a clip for him.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yes, I think we do have a clip of Gavin
and we should actually hear that on the other side
of this. But it does matter how they are stood up.
And some states it's been by referendum, and the voters
by referendum and changing the constitution through referendum have decided
what the process is. And in other states, the legislature
itself have established these commissions. And if they are in
(11:09):
those cases established by the legislature or by an order
of the governor, the institution that established them are the
institutions that can dissolve or reform them in many cases,
So in my state it might be through constitutional amendment,
and Texas it appears that the legislature maintains power, and
New York it sounds like the legislature through a legislative
(11:32):
process can reform that process, but I have to take it.
I've got to look deeper into the government the statutes.
But if the governor is saying so, when the legislative
branch is concurring, it sounds to me like the legislative
process is where the reform would take place.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
And yeah, okay, So then do they conven a special
session just like.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I think they are in session? So it would be
a matter of them and they control both the House
and the Senate there in New York, in New York
and New York the state of New York, that would
would allow allowed them to do this and to do
it in concert with the law without subverting the law.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Okay, but we should hear from California.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
California, because I think there's a different test there, even
though that is the most populous state and probably the
state that could yield the most seats. The last estimation
I heard was potential of nine seats being made permanently
democratic if the California legislature were to enforce a new
partisan map that would give Democrats the advantage up to
(12:28):
nine seats. Trumping upon the pardon the pund trumping, Trump's
effort in Texas, which well, you'll five seats. Let's play
that clip from California.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
You know, California is one of several blue states now
looking to counter at Texas and President Trump's plan.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Here's what we know.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
The governor wants new maps to go before voters in November,
but today candidate for governor Steve Hilton announced heam plans
to file legal action to block redistricting if the governor
moves forward. Hilton calls the move a power grab by
state democrats.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Districts should be drawn by an independent commission once every
ten years, crucially following a census so that you know
where people live, so that the districts reflect population.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I didn't realize the the uh that the governor was
trying to get it on the ballot this year. I
didn't know that part of it. I thought he was
trying to change it legislatively.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
But yeah, and I think, but I think it's to
your point. If the if the people voted for that,
what the power does he have to you know, does
he challenge it? It's the ballot courts. It just had Wow, it's.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Ballot so stood up by the their commission, stood up
by the by the people. To a constitutional amendment probably,
and now it's going back to them for their approval
to change those maps. This this this cycle, and again
I think the data on California, a map that was
actually presented through the course of conversation this week from California,
(13:56):
is that they can pick up nine seats were they
to politically duramander the seats in the state of California.
And again that would be four more than the five
that California that Texas is trying to is trying to create.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
So I wanted to just look to see which states
have independent commissions, which ones have political commissions, which ones
have advisory commissions, and then backup commissions. There are eight
(14:28):
states with independent commissions. There are three political commissions, three
backup commissions, and four advisory commissions, which we have.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
To assume the rest of the country then must be legislative.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
That's correct. And so in Connecticut, for example, there's a
backup commission. It says super majority, no veto and they
their last map was drawn by the state court the
Arizona it's an independent commission, but it doesn't tell me
(15:04):
how it was stood up. Idaho is another one. Michigan
is another one. Nonpartisan independent Montana. New Jersey has a
political commission, so that would be an interesting one. The
New York has the independent Commission with the supermajority, and
(15:25):
it says that their last map was drawn by the legislature.
So what I think is interesting is which states have
maps that were last drawn by legislatures to the extent
that they're blue. They change. But here is the caution
I'd offer you, Andrew, even in our frisky fight, you know,
(15:45):
we own control most of the state legislation.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Oh, the majority control by Republicans.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Yeah, like super majority, Like, isn't it thirty two?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I mean, it's pretty bad. The only comfort I taken
the majority Republicans control of legislatures is that in many
those states the populations have not changed to the point
where they get new seats in any way. So in
each they.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Can eliminate the seats we see we have.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Correct, they can decrease the power and those states, I
think that would throw the course into a WorldWind, because
in most of those cases, there's no doubt about it,
they are going to land back into the courts. The
course will end up drawing maps for the country. To
be quite frank and I misspoke.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
It's the Republicans control a majority of seats in twenty
nine state houses, which is still a majority, it's not
a super majority, and thirty state Senates. And so what
somebody needs to do is overlay which ones and then
which of those are independently controlled. Because what you don't
want to do, we're already in a constitutional crisis in
(16:51):
the sixtieth anniversary of the Voting Rights Act. Which you
don't want to do is throw us into a state
based constitutional crisis too, where power is you know, being
swayed by, you know, by a whim like it's just
I don't know what else.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
But that's what we mean when we say in arms race,
this is a total race to the bottom. If we
get Republicans and democratic states replicating one another, a back
and forth and back and forth. And by the way,
we can't even we can't even angela break it down
to Republicans health states versus Democratic states because in some
of those states they're real institutional institutionalists who have their
(17:29):
own political reasons as to why they would or could
or could not do some of these kinds of things.
It would it would create quite a conspiracy for these
states Republican health states to have to get together under
the direction of the White House and basically start determining
where to pick up pick off, convene these conventions, convene
(17:49):
redistricting bodies, and so on and so forth to map
their power, and Democrats would have to do the same thing.
We used to have people who cared enough about the
letter of the law not to drive us down this road.
But where we are right now is the obsession with
the concentration of power is prepared to seed and up
in everything that we have once known to be true,
(18:11):
all in the pursuit of power. And I don't know
anything that has ever ended correctly, that has ended ever
right in pursuit of power. Those things tend to corrupt
themselves and blow up the whole system. That's just where
we are.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
So if we're saying that the only way for us
to fight back, if we're saying, you know, we know
that we would like to be an ideal, but we're
keeping it all the way real. So if we're doing that,
and we know that to stop the hemorrhage, we do
have to consolidate power, and we yeah, we have to
beat them. So isn't that still a powagraph. We still
(18:55):
think it's a paragraph for righteousness, but it is a
power graph.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
It is a fight for power, there's no doubt about that.
But either think what the fight that Democrats that are
having that is different than Republicans. It's Democrats are not
trying to rig the system. They're trying to keep a fit.
They're trying to have a system a floor in place.
Texas is trying to overrun the floor. They're saying, we're
not interested in maps that properly give representation to the
people in our state. What they're interested in is a
(19:20):
map that produces Republicans only. There's a big difference between
representation and then a difference between power. The right representation
for the purpose of power. Well, and that's what Republicans
are attempting, you know, in this case to accomplish is
to power grab. And I think that what Democrats are
hoping for with Kathy holkal is hoping for by making
(19:42):
this threat is that the threat of mutually assured destruction
will be enough to stay the hand of other people
from following down Texas's path. Basically, it's a shot over
the bout that says, Texas, if you want to go there.
We'll meet you there. State of New York, and then
some other state. Let's say Florida, the third largest state
in the country, says, oh, New York, if you want
(20:02):
to go there, we will meet you there. And then
California wais in and says, oh, we're the most populous
state in the country. If you want to go there, Florida,
we'll meet you there. And what do you have right there?
The four largest states in the country have just started
a war.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
Well, let me ask you this. Okay, let's try to
take party out of it. We're gonna we're gonna try
to be an independent commission. Oh lord, let's see how
well we do here. Republicans, you say, are engaging in
a power grab. In order to stop the hemorrhage of
said power grab, Democrats are doing.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
What they are, meeting them there by saying we will
draw our seats to increase power democratic power.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Okay, now, hold on, so are you opposed. Let's say
that Texas is like that, bish, that's what you want
to do. Now, I'm gonna get rid of all the Democrats.
I'm gonna make it an all Republican you know, and
say that that's what they do. You said a moment
ago that we're just increasing the number of democratic seats.
(21:02):
We're not making it all democratic. If they go all Republican,
do you want New York to meet them and to
be with the ships and say where all dims? Now?
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I think you have to show up at a gunfight
with a bazuka. Yeah. And we didn't ask for this, no.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Of course, But I'm just saying, so in your mind,
is it? Is it not a power grab?
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Two?
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Because it's a neutralization strategy.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
It is a neutralization strategy. We didn't and by the way,
we didn't start this. You say it don't start not
but but what But what we're saying here is is
Republican says you are not the only ones who can
play this game. Yeah right, they're acting as it.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
So what's the floor, Andrew? I think so now you
know I got anxiety. Yes, so I have anxiety about
this because I'm like, I don't see this go like
you know, like you know, no, I feel like it's
I feel like every red line in the stand that
that that they cross. Then we have another re Yes.
So then if you walk this.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Out, it's mutually assured destruction. You said that's what that's
what that's what this is. So then this is why
Russia doesn't fire a nuclear weapon at the United States.
This is why the United States does not fire a
nuclear weapon at Russia or the EU, or or India
(22:29):
because or Pakistan, because these countries all have first strike
capabilities to the United States. So that's why nuclear is
off the table, because we are all assured mutual destruction
if one does it. And that's why we're making this
argument here is if you do it, you're going to
be met by the same thing.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
So is that why they pushed so we started this
this this this mini pod with Bakari's clip. Is that
why they started to drift or shift towards into in
the commissions.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, they began the move toward independent commissions so that
we didn't have this sort of warfare breakout where you
just have politicians choosing their voters rather than the voters
choosing their members of Congress or choosing who they want
to latch.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Then voters, they're not the undoing of democracy.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
I don't know what it is, and it's unfortunately been
that unequal an unfair path for quite a while. We
just hadn't seen this type of threatened escalation during a
mid term descential meaning in the middle of the way
of the dissential discential census, or were you redrawing of
the line. So no facts have changed, really nothing, no
(23:39):
facts have changed. They're simply using the numbers that are
on the table to manipulate the map to their advantage.
That's okay, they are.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Let me tell you this, and I know we this
is a long rap time. This is my last thing.
This is my last thing though, So you know, we
had an election in Seattle and in King County this week.
Right now as I'm talking to you, it's still next
connect with a progressive white woman that may end up
beating not only a black mayor, but a black mayor
is a family friend here, Bruce Harrow. I'm hoping that's
(24:08):
not true. Germai Zahalai will be the King County executive
black man. And there's also an election in Detroit, I know,
in several other places. But what I want to point out, Andrew,
is we're talking about the people, the electeds, choosing their voters,
But if we're honest, the voters still aren't really choosing
(24:30):
their folks. Because in Seattle, they're celebrating the fact that,
you know, if the voter turnout could get up to
thirty thirty three percent in Detroit, they're talking about seventeen percent.
So it's like people are still not really choosing their candidates.
It is a select few. It is a talented tenth,
(24:53):
that is a talented seventeenth choosing who will represent the
best interests of these voters. I don't know what we
get what we do to get people to lean in
in a process that, especially when we're watching it, like
freaking implode this whole thing about like I voted, I
picked my person, and then you redraw the goddamn lines.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah. Yeah, By the way, this is some of the
kinds of tactics that add to people deciding not to
participate in the process. Right, they make the choice to
stay out. But this is what I pull out as
a difference. The difference with voter turnout numbers and percentages
are that steal. The voters are making a you know,
they are getting to decide whether to participate or not.
We have otherwise, is a system deciding who gets to
(25:39):
show up, who gets to win, and who you get
to choose from by way of candidates because we have
rigged the rules to dictate to dictate that to you.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
But I think that's why they don't show up. So
I don't see them as separate. I see them as
inherently connected.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I see them, I see them connected, I see them
as slightly different. Because I want to be able to
make the choice around my representation. I don't want you
telling me that that a black candidate is now off
the table because I've totally read on these lines to
make sure that they'll never ever to be able to
compete and win. That's that's the thing, the difference.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
I think we have to keep talking about this. You know,
we will over time for a mini pod data shut
in today, But it's so good because what I think
we get to the heart of brother is, you know,
democracy is not like this foregone conclusion. It's something that
is being fought for minute by minute, second by second,
and it requires oversight, not just by it.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
It requires our participation. Yes, but we don't get to
watch this thing and think that it's going to work
out the way we want it.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
And casting a ballot isn't sufficient, Like you literally have
to oversee the people who you put in place to
oversee what is happening, because they may be overseeing it
in a way that is not represent your best Angela.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I've said this on the show before it I stand
by it, and that is is that democracy is a
contact sport and it is the reason why this is
the least in the least popular form of government as
we look around the world, it is not easy to maintain.
It is much easier to maintain a single leader at
the top telling everybody what they can do and what
they cannot do, and people obliging themselves and obligating themselves
(27:20):
under that leadership structure. We are in a difficult process.
Democracies are hard, They must be fought for. It is
why the framer said, we hand you a republic if
you can keep it. If you can keep it, part
is where we come in. If we can keep it.
So that's the question of the day, and we'll only
be answered by how it is that we respond to
(27:41):
the threat that Texas is putting up and the threat
that all these other states are going to continue to
put up in the face of Donald Trump's power hungry party.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Right now, I want to tell you this because we
do really do have to go. But we normally don't
have cost to action in the in the mini pods.
But I just want to shout out our sister friend
Balicia Butterfield, because in the face of all that's happening,
because democracy is crumbling, because it's a contact sport, she
stood up something where she's using the hashtag relief is resistance.
(28:14):
As you know, Andrew, more than three hundred and ninety
thousand Black women are now unemployed because of what's happened
with the federal government, because of what's happened with DEI.
And that's just in the last three months. She stood
up an emergency relief fund and asking black women to
apply if they need support, and so far more than
(28:35):
eighteen thousand Black women have applied for emergency relief. And
I just want to encourage us to remember that the
power is still with the people. Even when our representatives
cheat us out of real representation, we can be there
to stand up for each other to provide real relief.
We did that with Stay to the People. Balisha's doing
this now Black Voters Matter is doing this work. We
(28:56):
have to continue to lean in for each other where
our elected officials are leaving gaps.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
That's real. Thank you, Ellen, Welcome Home.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Native lamdpod is a production of iHeartRadio and partnership with
Resent Choice Media. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows.
Native Lampod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership with
Reason Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
If you believe that there is a law, please tell me,
because we just had the voting rights that gut it.
So please tell me what law, particularly in the South,
previns us from happening. And I just want to just
one bit of it. Like I was in the General
Assembly in South Carolina when we drew these lines, and
so I've actually seen these lines be drawn.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
And what I'm.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Absolutely telling you is places like Tim Scott's old South
Carolina first District right where he seeded black voters to
Jim Clyburn. That's exactly what he did. It made Jim
Cliburn's district more African American. It made Tim Scott's district
more white so that people would vote for them.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Change that?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Do you change it by running away and delaying the
process and.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Not elected commissioners.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Vote on it? Yeah, that's that. Just again, everybody we
were talking about in the main episode of Native Lampot
this week, this whole redistricting fight that's happening around the country.
What's at stake? And Frankly what's the right way to go.
We've seen members of the legislature.
Speaker 4 (01:15):
Andrew, this is Native Lampod. Welcome home, y'all. This and
mini pod. We just jumped right.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Why should I say Native lamp welcome.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
We didn't welcome. We just were like Also in the
main episode.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Was yeah, yeah, we skipped the part welcome home everybody.
This is uh the mini pod this week for Native Lampod.
We're acting. We're acting like y'all know exactly what's going on.
I'm Andrew Gillum co host along with Angela Rye and
an Abstenia, our sister Tiffany Tippany Cross who was in
the congo.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
We had a lot to say. So Tif we actually
glad you got here today because we need to take
all your time. We were claiming your time today. Andrew,
You know what, this reminded me of starting a podcast
like that. Reminded me of picking up the phone with
Eddie Rakhas.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Because he when you literally conversation yes.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
So anyway, so anyway what yeah, what do.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
You say, daddy? Where are you coming back from?
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yeah, bring me to the top of the conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Well, we are talking about redistricting and we're trying not
to make this topic glaze over everybody's eyes and brows
by making it frankly, as front and center and as
local as we can. Right there, you saw the clip
of our good friend Bacari Sellers, who is a former
member of the South Carolina Legislature, talking about what his
(02:29):
experience was drawing districts in that state, House districts, center districts,
and of course congressional districts and that state. And his
last point of that video he was making to response
to the question of how should these maps be drawn?
Rather than politically it's his argument was for drawing these
maps using a non partisan redistricting commission to do it
(02:51):
different than what the State of Texas is the attempting
to do right now, which is to basically have the legislature,
a political body, draw the congressional districts. Angela, where do
you put the merits of independent versus political drawing of lines?
Speaker 4 (03:08):
So I think again, you know how so next year
is going to be the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary
of the declaration of independence. So there's this idea that, like,
we hold these truths, but who holds these truths?
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Right?
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Like every if the truths weren't designed to be held
by everyone. At what point are they held by everyone?
And I think what is incredible about our friends who
are institutionalists like Bakari, is there's, you know, this aspiration
that we are striving to get to and we think
that if we put people in position to think the
(03:44):
way they ought, then they will do the things they
ought to do. But that's not always the case. So
when you talk about these independent commissions, Andrew, the question becomes,
you know, are the independent politically? This woman who he
was arguing with on on CNN talks about, well, now
we have AI to draw maps. AI has a bias
(04:05):
because there's someone who built they have right that, so
now it carries their bias. If someone is independent politically,
well where do they lean economically? Do they believe people
who are poor or disenfranchised or incarcerated deserve to also
have a vote in Congress? And a lot of people
don't understand that people are counted for the sake of
(04:29):
population in congressional and state districts when they're incarcerated, But
a lot of them still don't have a vote if
the laws say so in their state. What is my point,
you can be independent and bipartisan or nonpartisan and still
have bias. I for one, in this country, especially right now,
(04:50):
while fascists run the government, while J sixers are running
around the country imp implementing their will at their will,
even doging their will an upon us, I struggle with
the idea that an independent commission can do the right thing.
We have seen where members of Congress, particularly my former
(05:11):
bosses CBC members, have been harmed by these independent commissions.
Bacari brought up something where he talked about Congressman Clyburn.
Congressman Clyburn, who I love, has been criticized often for
maintaining a district that I believe if someone could fact
check this on the show and text it to me,
but I believe his district is at least sixty percent black.
(05:34):
I do want to triple check that, because a lot
of members of Congress say at this point, mister Cliburn
really doesn't need a sixty percent plus black district because
of how much he's impacted South Carolina all the things
that he's done. Well, mister Cliburn would argue, well, this
is for the person who comes after me, right, And
some people would still say, well, he doesn't need it.
(05:55):
Maybe it's fifty, maybe it's forty. On the on the
other hand, I promise you I'm going somewhere. On the
other hand, Congressman Bobby Scott has said, I don't need
a fifty sixty seventy percent black district. Carve up my
district so it's more geographically aligned and in tune with
what we need to get accomplished geographically. Because I could
(06:18):
win with a thirty five forty percent black district. Let's
create another black district in Virginia, which they've done so
now Jennifer McClellan occupies that seat. It was a seat
that was formerly held by Donald mckeechen, who got rest.
His soul is no longer with us, lolo. I appreciate that,
(06:41):
but it was for mister Cliburn, not Thompson. So all
good there. I think we only have one majority district
in Mississippi period. But I'm actually looking for the numbers
for mister Cliburn because their a position is that there
could be two majority minority districts in South Carolina. My
point in saying all of that is, so mister Cliburn
is forty seven percent black, and so I don't know
(07:03):
what the argument has been historically. I know before it
was they could at least carve out one more black district.
He agrees with that, but for whatever reason, that number
was higher. So I'm saying all that to say independent
or not, it's never truly independent AI or not. It
doesn't mean that it's no longer biased. But I think
right now what we are having to reckon with is
(07:24):
our permanent interest. That means that we have to move
in our reality. It's a reality of war. It is
not an ideal It is an ideology war, but it's
not an ideal situation. We're not in an ideal situation,
so we shouldn't have ideal commissions.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
That's fair, I mean, I think so in an equalized
in a righteous world, where all things, you know, were equal,
when people follow the law and didn't detempt to manipulate
the laws to their own political advantage, which is what
we're up against right now. The long term impact of
allowing the Texas legislature to reach draw this district and
(08:01):
we draw the lines in the rules to advantage them
by five seats if they're in results and they're in goal,
may be the demise of the democracy as we know it,
meaning those members can be holdouts when it comes around
to the next point of counting the electoral college and
they say we reject you know, there's a majority there
to reject what the electoral college members say and leave
(08:21):
Donald Trump in office. We've never had that scenario, but
we also never had that scenario tested. And right now
under these lawless folks who are so power hungry, we
don't really know what we will get as a result
of the conundrum. I think we find ourselves, particularly those
of us who are kind of good government champions, you know,
that we should set the rules to be fair and
(08:41):
equitable and then let how the politics of it play out.
Is that in many democratic states they have already gone
the route of setting up these independent, these quote independent
redistricting commissions, seeding away the power of the governor or
the legislature from being able to bigfoot and have their
way over these commissions. Well republican states, including you know
(09:04):
in my own, they continue to allow the political drawing
of lines. They have no interest in good government. Their
only interest is in maintaining and keeping power, not to
ensure that we've got a fair and representative democracy. And
so we're hearing from democratic governors across the country saying, hey, look,
if y'all have changed in the rules, we're willing to
(09:24):
meet you there. We will fight you based off of
those rules being changed, except not being able to do
it unilaterally because they've got these redistrict commissions that are
right now empowered to do what it is that they've
been tasked with doing, which is to draw these districts,
and to do so without any partisan interest whatsoever, but
rather than fairness around those maps. So democratic governors are
(09:48):
in many ways already handicapped in this fight because they
are bound by these redistrict commissions. I think what made
Kathy Hochel so distinct, as we've heard her speak this week,
is that they too have a Registrian Commission, which she
is prepared to disband, yeah, in concert with other legislative bodies,
(10:08):
so that they will have the ability to do with
the Republicans in Texas are doing. What's just to say, fine,
we'll just draw Republicans right out of their seats and
make sure that we only create seats that are accessible
by Democrats. Is it the is it the long term
fair thing to do? Or is it the right thing
in this moment to do to eventually save off this
attack on democracy?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Can she do that? Andrew? For those listening at home
that are saying, if there's an independent commission that was
stood up like by the state legislature, I know all
of these states are different. Who has the authority in
New York, for example, to do this? And is it
different for Gavin? We have a clip for him.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yes, I think we do have a clip of Gavin
and we should actually hear that on the other side
of this. But it does matter how they are stood up.
And some states it's been by referendum, and the voters
by referendum and changing the constitution through referendum have decided
what the process is. And in other states, the legislature
itself have established these commissions. And if they are in
(11:09):
those cases established by the legislature or by an order
of the governor, the institution that established them are the
institutions that can dissolve or reform them in many cases,
So in my state it might be through constitutional amendment,
and Texas it appears that the legislature maintains power, and
New York it sounds like the legislature through a legislative
(11:32):
process can reform that process, but I have to take it.
I've got to look deeper into the government the statutes.
But if the governor is saying so, when the legislative
branch is concurring, it sounds to me like the legislative
process is where the reform would take place.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
And yeah, okay, So then do they conven a special
session just like.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
I think they are in session? So it would be
a matter of them and they control both the House
and the Senate there in New York, in New York
and New York the state of New York, that would
would allow allowed them to do this and to do
it in concert with the law without subverting the law.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Okay, but we should hear from California.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
California, because I think there's a different test there, even
though that is the most populous state and probably the
state that could yield the most seats. The last estimation
I heard was potential of nine seats being made permanently
democratic if the California legislature were to enforce a new
partisan map that would give Democrats the advantage up to
(12:28):
nine seats. Trumping upon the pardon the pund trumping, Trump's
effort in Texas, which well, you'll five seats. Let's play
that clip from California.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
You know, California is one of several blue states now
looking to counter at Texas and President Trump's plan.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Here's what we know.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
The governor wants new maps to go before voters in November,
but today candidate for governor Steve Hilton announced heam plans
to file legal action to block redistricting if the governor
moves forward. Hilton calls the move a power grab by
state democrats.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Districts should be drawn by an independent commission once every
ten years, crucially following a census so that you know
where people live, so that the districts reflect population.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I didn't realize the the uh that the governor was
trying to get it on the ballot this year. I
didn't know that part of it. I thought he was
trying to change it legislatively.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
But yeah, and I think, but I think it's to
your point. If the if the people voted for that,
what the power does he have to you know, does
he challenge it? It's the ballot courts. It just had Wow, it's.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Ballot so stood up by the their commission, stood up
by the by the people. To a constitutional amendment probably,
and now it's going back to them for their approval
to change those maps. This this this cycle, and again
I think the data on California, a map that was
actually presented through the course of conversation this week from California,
(13:56):
is that they can pick up nine seats were they
to politically duramander the seats in the state of California.
And again that would be four more than the five
that California that Texas is trying to is trying to create.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
So I wanted to just look to see which states
have independent commissions, which ones have political commissions, which ones
have advisory commissions, and then backup commissions. There are eight
(14:28):
states with independent commissions. There are three political commissions, three
backup commissions, and four advisory commissions, which we have.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
To assume the rest of the country then must be legislative.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
That's correct. And so in Connecticut, for example, there's a
backup commission. It says super majority, no veto and they
their last map was drawn by the state court the
Arizona it's an independent commission, but it doesn't tell me
(15:04):
how it was stood up. Idaho is another one. Michigan
is another one. Nonpartisan independent Montana. New Jersey has a
political commission, so that would be an interesting one. The
New York has the independent Commission with the supermajority, and
(15:25):
it says that their last map was drawn by the legislature.
So what I think is interesting is which states have
maps that were last drawn by legislatures to the extent
that they're blue. They change. But here is the caution
I'd offer you, Andrew, even in our frisky fight, you know,
(15:45):
we own control most of the state legislation.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Oh, the majority control by Republicans.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Yeah, like super majority, Like, isn't it thirty two?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I mean, it's pretty bad. The only comfort I taken
the majority Republicans control of legislatures is that in many
those states the populations have not changed to the point
where they get new seats in any way. So in
each they.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Can eliminate the seats we see we have.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Correct, they can decrease the power and those states, I
think that would throw the course into a WorldWind, because
in most of those cases, there's no doubt about it,
they are going to land back into the courts. The
course will end up drawing maps for the country. To
be quite frank and I misspoke.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
It's the Republicans control a majority of seats in twenty
nine state houses, which is still a majority, it's not
a super majority, and thirty state Senates. And so what
somebody needs to do is overlay which ones and then
which of those are independently controlled. Because what you don't
want to do, we're already in a constitutional crisis in
(16:51):
the sixtieth anniversary of the Voting Rights Act. Which you
don't want to do is throw us into a state
based constitutional crisis too, where power is you know, being
swayed by, you know, by a whim like it's just
I don't know what else.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
But that's what we mean when we say in arms race,
this is a total race to the bottom. If we
get Republicans and democratic states replicating one another, a back
and forth and back and forth. And by the way,
we can't even we can't even angela break it down
to Republicans health states versus Democratic states because in some
of those states they're real institutional institutionalists who have their
(17:29):
own political reasons as to why they would or could
or could not do some of these kinds of things.
It would it would create quite a conspiracy for these
states Republican health states to have to get together under
the direction of the White House and basically start determining
where to pick up pick off, convene these conventions, convene
(17:49):
redistricting bodies, and so on and so forth to map
their power, and Democrats would have to do the same thing.
We used to have people who cared enough about the
letter of the law not to drive us down this road.
But where we are right now is the obsession with
the concentration of power is prepared to seed and up
in everything that we have once known to be true,
(18:11):
all in the pursuit of power. And I don't know
anything that has ever ended correctly, that has ended ever
right in pursuit of power. Those things tend to corrupt
themselves and blow up the whole system. That's just where
we are.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
So if we're saying that the only way for us
to fight back, if we're saying, you know, we know
that we would like to be an ideal, but we're
keeping it all the way real. So if we're doing that,
and we know that to stop the hemorrhage, we do
have to consolidate power, and we yeah, we have to
beat them. So isn't that still a powagraph. We still
(18:55):
think it's a paragraph for righteousness, but it is a
power graph.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
It is a fight for power, there's no doubt about that.
But either think what the fight that Democrats that are
having that is different than Republicans. It's Democrats are not
trying to rig the system. They're trying to keep a fit.
They're trying to have a system a floor in place.
Texas is trying to overrun the floor. They're saying, we're
not interested in maps that properly give representation to the
people in our state. What they're interested in is a
(19:20):
map that produces Republicans only. There's a big difference between
representation and then a difference between power. The right representation
for the purpose of power. Well, and that's what Republicans
are attempting, you know, in this case to accomplish is
to power grab. And I think that what Democrats are
hoping for with Kathy holkal is hoping for by making
(19:42):
this threat is that the threat of mutually assured destruction
will be enough to stay the hand of other people
from following down Texas's path. Basically, it's a shot over
the bout that says, Texas, if you want to go there.
We'll meet you there. State of New York, and then
some other state. Let's say Florida, the third largest state
in the country, says, oh, New York, if you want
(20:02):
to go there, we will meet you there. And then
California wais in and says, oh, we're the most populous
state in the country. If you want to go there, Florida,
we'll meet you there. And what do you have right there?
The four largest states in the country have just started
a war.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
Well, let me ask you this. Okay, let's try to
take party out of it. We're gonna we're gonna try
to be an independent commission. Oh lord, let's see how
well we do here. Republicans, you say, are engaging in
a power grab. In order to stop the hemorrhage of
said power grab, Democrats are doing.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
What they are, meeting them there by saying we will
draw our seats to increase power democratic power.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Okay, now, hold on, so are you opposed. Let's say
that Texas is like that, bish, that's what you want
to do. Now, I'm gonna get rid of all the Democrats.
I'm gonna make it an all Republican you know, and
say that that's what they do. You said a moment
ago that we're just increasing the number of democratic seats.
(21:02):
We're not making it all democratic. If they go all Republican,
do you want New York to meet them and to
be with the ships and say where all dims? Now?
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I think you have to show up at a gunfight
with a bazuka. Yeah. And we didn't ask for this, no.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Of course, But I'm just saying, so in your mind,
is it? Is it not a power grab?
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Two?
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Because it's a neutralization strategy.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
It is a neutralization strategy. We didn't and by the way,
we didn't start this. You say it don't start not
but but what But what we're saying here is is
Republican says you are not the only ones who can
play this game. Yeah right, they're acting as it.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
So what's the floor, Andrew? I think so now you
know I got anxiety. Yes, so I have anxiety about
this because I'm like, I don't see this go like
you know, like you know, no, I feel like it's
I feel like every red line in the stand that
that that they cross. Then we have another re Yes.
So then if you walk this.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Out, it's mutually assured destruction. You said that's what that's
what that's what this is. So then this is why
Russia doesn't fire a nuclear weapon at the United States.
This is why the United States does not fire a
nuclear weapon at Russia or the EU, or or India
(22:29):
because or Pakistan, because these countries all have first strike
capabilities to the United States. So that's why nuclear is
off the table, because we are all assured mutual destruction
if one does it. And that's why we're making this
argument here is if you do it, you're going to
be met by the same thing.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
So is that why they pushed so we started this
this this this mini pod with Bakari's clip. Is that
why they started to drift or shift towards into in
the commissions.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, they began the move toward independent commissions so that
we didn't have this sort of warfare breakout where you
just have politicians choosing their voters rather than the voters
choosing their members of Congress or choosing who they want
to latch.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Then voters, they're not the undoing of democracy.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
I don't know what it is, and it's unfortunately been
that unequal an unfair path for quite a while. We
just hadn't seen this type of threatened escalation during a
mid term descential meaning in the middle of the way
of the dissential discential census, or were you redrawing of
the line. So no facts have changed, really nothing, no
(23:39):
facts have changed. They're simply using the numbers that are
on the table to manipulate the map to their advantage.
That's okay, they are.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Let me tell you this, and I know we this
is a long rap time. This is my last thing.
This is my last thing though, So you know, we
had an election in Seattle and in King County this week.
Right now as I'm talking to you, it's still next
connect with a progressive white woman that may end up
beating not only a black mayor, but a black mayor
is a family friend here, Bruce Harrow. I'm hoping that's
(24:08):
not true. Germai Zahalai will be the King County executive
black man. And there's also an election in Detroit, I know,
in several other places. But what I want to point out, Andrew,
is we're talking about the people, the electeds, choosing their voters,
But if we're honest, the voters still aren't really choosing
(24:30):
their folks. Because in Seattle, they're celebrating the fact that,
you know, if the voter turnout could get up to
thirty thirty three percent in Detroit, they're talking about seventeen percent.
So it's like people are still not really choosing their candidates.
It is a select few. It is a talented tenth,
(24:53):
that is a talented seventeenth choosing who will represent the
best interests of these voters. I don't know what we
get what we do to get people to lean in
in a process that, especially when we're watching it, like
freaking implode this whole thing about like I voted, I
picked my person, and then you redraw the goddamn lines.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah. Yeah, By the way, this is some of the
kinds of tactics that add to people deciding not to
participate in the process. Right, they make the choice to
stay out. But this is what I pull out as
a difference. The difference with voter turnout numbers and percentages
are that steal. The voters are making a you know,
they are getting to decide whether to participate or not.
We have otherwise, is a system deciding who gets to
(25:39):
show up, who gets to win, and who you get
to choose from by way of candidates because we have
rigged the rules to dictate to dictate that to you.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
But I think that's why they don't show up. So
I don't see them as separate. I see them as
inherently connected.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I see them, I see them connected, I see them
as slightly different. Because I want to be able to
make the choice around my representation. I don't want you
telling me that that a black candidate is now off
the table because I've totally read on these lines to
make sure that they'll never ever to be able to
compete and win. That's that's the thing, the difference.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
I think we have to keep talking about this. You know,
we will over time for a mini pod data shut
in today, But it's so good because what I think
we get to the heart of brother is, you know,
democracy is not like this foregone conclusion. It's something that
is being fought for minute by minute, second by second,
and it requires oversight, not just by it.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
It requires our participation. Yes, but we don't get to
watch this thing and think that it's going to work
out the way we want it.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
And casting a ballot isn't sufficient, Like you literally have
to oversee the people who you put in place to
oversee what is happening, because they may be overseeing it
in a way that is not represent your best Angela.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I've said this on the show before it I stand
by it, and that is is that democracy is a
contact sport and it is the reason why this is
the least in the least popular form of government as
we look around the world, it is not easy to maintain.
It is much easier to maintain a single leader at
the top telling everybody what they can do and what
they cannot do, and people obliging themselves and obligating themselves
(27:20):
under that leadership structure. We are in a difficult process.
Democracies are hard, They must be fought for. It is
why the framer said, we hand you a republic if
you can keep it. If you can keep it, part
is where we come in. If we can keep it.
So that's the question of the day, and we'll only
be answered by how it is that we respond to
(27:41):
the threat that Texas is putting up and the threat
that all these other states are going to continue to
put up in the face of Donald Trump's power hungry party.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Right now, I want to tell you this because we
do really do have to go. But we normally don't
have cost to action in the in the mini pods.
But I just want to shout out our sister friend
Balicia Butterfield, because in the face of all that's happening,
because democracy is crumbling, because it's a contact sport, she
stood up something where she's using the hashtag relief is resistance.
(28:14):
As you know, Andrew, more than three hundred and ninety
thousand Black women are now unemployed because of what's happened
with the federal government, because of what's happened with DEI.
And that's just in the last three months. She stood
up an emergency relief fund and asking black women to
apply if they need support, and so far more than
(28:35):
eighteen thousand Black women have applied for emergency relief. And
I just want to encourage us to remember that the
power is still with the people. Even when our representatives
cheat us out of real representation, we can be there
to stand up for each other to provide real relief.
We did that with Stay to the People. Balisha's doing
this now Black Voters Matter is doing this work. We
(28:56):
have to continue to lean in for each other where
our elected officials are leaving gaps.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
That's real. Thank you, Ellen, Welcome Home.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Native lamdpod is a production of iHeartRadio and partnership with
Resent Choice Media. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
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Hosts And Creators
Tiffany Cross
Andrew Gillum
Angela Rye
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