September 1, 2025 • 26 mins
In a recent live pod recording at Invest Fest in Atlanta, NLP host Tiffany Cross raised a potentially inconvenient question: Given capitalism’s roots in slavery, can that system ever actually serve Black people?
Today, she is joined by fellow hosts Angela Rye and Andrew Gillum to discuss and debate that question in more depth.
If you’d like to submit a question, check out our tutorial video: http://www.instagram.com/reel/C5j_oBXLIg0/ and send to @nativelandpod.
Welcome home y’all!
—---------
We want to hear from you! Send us a video @nativelandpod and we may feature you on the podcast.
Watch full episodes of Native Land Pod here on YouTube.
Native Land Pod is brought to you by Reasoned Choice Media.
Thank you to the Native Land Pod team:
Angela Rye as host, executive producer and cofounder of Reasoned Choice Media; Tiffany Cross as host and producer, Andrew Gillum as host and producer, and Lauren Hansen as executive producer; Loren Mychael is our research producer, and Nikolas Harter is our editor and producer. Special thanks to Chris Morrow and Lenard McKelvey, co-founders of Reasoned Choice Media.
Theme music created by Daniel Laurent.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Nigga Lampod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership with
Reason Choice Media. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome home, everybody.
This is of course your family here over at Native Lampod.
This is this week's mini pod, which I want to
go ahead and kick over to my good co host
(00:20):
and Fran Tiffany to I think pick up from some
of the themes that we began at invest Fest. And
there was one particular topic Tiffany, if you recalled it,
you opened up that I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well, let me just first say thank you again to
Troy and Rashid, who hosts invest Fest. I'm sure you
guys may already follow them on social media. They had
an amazing gathering with tens of thousands of people who
came with financial literacy inquiry and it was a great
networking opportunity and they were polite enough to extend us
(00:54):
the stage and we were joined by amazing guests. So
if you haven't checked out that episode, please be sure
you can find that episode on all Native Land properties.
During this conversation, we you know, were posing each other
questions and Angela pulled the audience a few times, and
I was sitting there or watching tens of thousands of
(01:15):
people in the audience, and I started thinking, like, gosh,
we're all sitting here trying to build wealth while democracy
is falling around us, and we have this audience before us.
How can we meet the moment to address some of
these other things That's got me on this whole philosophical kick.
So I asked my fellow co host, the panelists, and
(01:39):
the audience, just the plan a seed of thought that
can black people thrive and survive in the very system
of capitalism, which in America was born out of the plantation.
So it was, you know, it was a lot of
like cheers and yeah, but when I asked that question,
(02:01):
it was a little quiet.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
It was a little quiet.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
We're talking about entrepreneurship, and you touched on this so beautifully,
Reverend Bryant, when you talked about chase your purpose and
not your profit.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
And I'm just.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Sitting here wondering because so many people in entrepreneurship, a
lot of people want to become Their goal is to
you know, make millions, And I just wonder, the system
of capitalism originated on the plantation, and if we are
trying to build empires and not community. Does this system
(02:36):
of capitalism serve us? We may not be able to
answer that on the panel, but I just want to
throw that out to the audience to think about it
as we're building businesses and hopefully building community, And if
y'all had thoughts.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
On it, I would love to hear it.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
But I'm happy I posed it because it wasn't necessarily
meant to be addressed then, but I wanted to at
least plant that seed of thought because even that seems
like their way of doing things. If we are, if
we become individuals just trying to build our own empires,
trying to build wealth, it seems like that adopts the
whitest right way. Before we came to America, there were
(03:15):
systems that there was no capitalism, you know, like we
just didn't function that way.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Are you talking bothering? Because because I think that's part
of what I'd like to invite from you now that
we've got a little bit of time on it. Yeah,
is how you may I don't want you to describe
the perfect system, but if you have that, you would
describe that you would want to be in a system
of the economy or replacing the current form of economy
(03:42):
we have, Like, what are the elements? What are some
of the elements you might want to be included there?
Or what you might want to make sure we avoid.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yes, so to me, if our it poses the question,
if our basic needs are met, what do we get
to create?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Who do we get to be? How do we get
to function?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So there are political systems and there are economic systems,
and some would argue in capitalism, I think Ibram Kendy said,
I think racism and capitalism are twin components. Forgive me,
Ebrahm if I'm misquoting you, so for me, And I've
also read a few books about this. One I've referenced
here is the work of fiction called Sky Full of Elephants.
(04:26):
For me, I wonder like, if I'm just living in
my space, growing in my garden and it's I can
I can give to you? I have home, I have food,
I have shelter. And if I'm growing greens and carrots
and potatoes in my garden and you're growing turnips and
strawberries and peaches in your garden, can we function that
(04:48):
way in this black city? That the guest in our
main episode this week post in this black city.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Is it possible, you know? And I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I think it's worth having an action ual economists maybe
address some of this, because I don't know what that
looks like, but I at least want us to think
about it.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I wonder too, if we should be.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Presuming that everybody wants the same things. Like part of
what I heard you saying Tiff earlier was, you know,
there's this idea that the convening that earn your leisure
is the entity that puts on investmentst Is there something
tone deaf about that right now? And there are people
(05:33):
who are participating in those convenings, in those conferences, wanting
to be a part of, you know, an investment group
because they have always felt the way that some of
us are feeling right now. Right They've always felt under attack,
They've always felt like they don't have enough, they always
feel like they're having to choose one basic necessity from another.
(05:54):
And the thing that I'm kind of fascinated by in
this conversation is like, yeah, I'm like I want to
set up mutual aid networks and bartering systems and all
these things. But there are a lot of people who
are like, nah, I've been kind of doing some element
of that, you know, Rob Peter to pay Paul, even
though I would not put that stank spent on bartering.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
But just go at me for a second.
Speaker 5 (06:16):
So the mentality is now shifted to what do I
need to do to secure the bag. We hear that
language a lot or back at the back in our day,
it was you know, get that money made right, like
all of these things where or get your hustle on
or whatever. There is some right, there's a thing where
there is something we're aspiring to. And I don't think
that aspiration is rooted in basic needs. It isn't being
(06:39):
you know, a real estate mogul where you have a
ton of rental properties. It's being able to get that
yacht and you set it off with your friends with
the with asus spades. It's being able to get you know,
a may back and you know cha Chase Rick Ross
who found his dumb ass in the target the other day.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
By the way, but I did I digress.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
Uh, you know, there are all of these things, and
I believe it's probably paid for it, like Hai Sanata,
We'll do that another time. I think my point is
that from our rap lyrics to.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
You know, some of the people who we.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Aspire for the fact that they're Yes, the small number
of black billionaires that exist, there is a deep desire
to increase that number. And so if that is the case,
bartering is not what they're striving for. You are rightly
talking about survival in this moment. But if I'm honest,
that doesn't get me closer to you know, taking my
(07:33):
parents to Africa for.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
A month, you know, Like I've been bawling on a budget.
I would like to be off the budget, please.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
Any So, I don't know if that in and of
itself is capitalism or if it's capitalism influence, But I
just wonder if there is safe if there's space for
two of those ideas to safely coexist. And I don't know,
but I think that's that's what I'm wrestling with, Like,
do we say that, you know, okay, we're a capitalist
(08:01):
because we're a capitalist society. In order for us to
ball not on a budget, we too have to be capitalist?
Or is there a way for us to still have
abundance in a system that's.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Rooted in bartering and all that. Anyway, I'm in so well.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
We have abundance. Can everybody have abundance? And I don't
I write that that's I don't know. And I don't
want to sit here and perpetrate either. I to desire
wealth like I work towards it. People you know, constantly
call out my hypocrisy because I mean, look, I'll be honest.
(08:33):
I'm probably not going to fly coach unless it's like
some sort of thing. I know that sounds horrible, but
I literally will forget because they're like, oh, your luggage
is over. I'm like, no, it's not. And it's like, oh,
I forget, Like if you're you know, you have a
different luggage it is listen. I'm just being honest. It
is a lifestyle that I aim for that and then
(08:54):
when it shakes, you're like, oh, I am married to
this system of capitalism. I was an argument with somebody
and he's very successful, and I was arguing with him
basically saying like, okay, but your success doesn't define you.
You could be some little African American history professor somewhere
and that's like a dupe thing.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
And he was like, do you hear yourself?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
You said some little African American history like there is
a ranking, and grant car is one of my favorite people.
Like all, I put these people in the highest respect.
But to be told to have my words reflected back
(09:36):
to me that way, I did actually wonder like, oh,
I have some of this embedded in who I am,
and that's not okay?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
How do I unlearn those things?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
The hierarchy part. I didn't like hearing that repeated back
to me. I was like, oh, that is true, like
when I say some little you know.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I didn't like that. But why do you have to
put a judgment, like a judgment value on whether or
not you desire nice things and to fly?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
No, get I get the hypocrisy. I'm just saying why
from a value set? To me? All right, I guess
I am. I'm absolutely in in the capitalist system as
we are. If you live here in America, unless you're
off the grid and you do your own thing, I
would be. I'm more concerned with where you You sort
(10:24):
of hinted that, which is, what about the basic of
needs being established across? What?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Why?
Speaker 1 (10:29):
What? Why can't our system of capitalism establish a universal
floor by which from that floor you can go on
to achieve all the things in the world that you
may want to. But at a very basic level, you're
going to have a house, You're.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Gonna guarantee income or something like you.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
At a basic level, you're gonna have access to health
care that doesn't break the bank and break you for
going in you know, to see about a communicable disease
that you can transfer to other people, or a cold
or a cough again that you can transfer to other people.
That could equal much more. But we have impact on
them than you. But so I just I wish our
system of capitalism made more room and put more emphasis
(11:08):
on a floor that way, I'm not trying to cap
your future. I'm not trying to put a cap on
all the wonderful, amazing things you can earn and buy
and create, which is what a lot of people fear
when we have universal systems of anything, is that all
you want to do is cap my income or cap
my potential, cap my innovation, take it away if you regulate,
(11:29):
or so on and so forth. So I don't want
to attack that part, even though I do believe that
that part ought to be taxed appropriately, that they ought
to make the contributions back to society as much as
their secretaries do, which doesn't exist in today's capitalist society
and most forms. I believe the Donald Trump's of the world,
and okay, maybe you're not him, but the most successful
(11:51):
capitalists in this country largely believe that they shouldn't pay
taxes because their contributions to the country is the fact
that they create jobs for people here. I mean, I've
heard wealthy people say that my contribution is is that
I give other people a place to work. That's all fine.
What I'm concerned about is your financial contribution back for
all that you have taken from the country. Amazon. You
(12:14):
may be Amazon and you're the wealthiest guy and this
kind of thing, but you're you're relying on the roads
that we pay for in our taxes to move across
to get your goods and services to people. You're not
paying for that. But I am so. I just I
think that we deserve a conversation about what would a
universal floor, a point by which everybody ought to start from.
(12:34):
For black folks, at one point, it was the guarantee
of forty acres and a mule for our service or
for our renders service extracted from us, with no payment
system in place whatsoever. It's still none. So if I
had it my way, it would be it would be
a Roosevelt era Second New Deal of what people can
(12:54):
expect at a base level in this economy to have
to meet their basic needs, and anything above that basic
need then you can work in Claw four.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Okay, I can get with that. What do you call that? System?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
With democracy? But I don't know.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Also overreliance on government, and I think this.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Is the one no no, no, not an overreliance on government.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
That's if it's no, well, well I think it's mine.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
So this is my argument right now.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
Now, if Andrew was the president, i'd be with it,
because I know it's about to happen, right and I
think the reality is, not only do we are we
not getting a New Deal twenty twenty five, we got
Project twenty twenty five. And as a result of getting
Project twenty twenty five, some of the basic things that
we have relied upon for decades are now also not
just at risk, but literally on the chopping block. And
(13:46):
it any moment, folks will start to fill the real
economic hardships from those things being pulled back. So one
of the things that that I reference a lot is
this comment from Congressman Rango Make God Rest his soul,
who was one of the founders of the Congressional Black Caucus.
When he was retiring, he said that he often wonders
(14:06):
if we spend too much time focusing on social policy
and not enough on economic policy. And I think his
perspective on that was many of the things that we
seek to change socially we could address if we had
our own resource. But what we've done is we've set
up a system where because we deserve it. Right, we're
not saying we don't deserve it the government doesn't owe us,
(14:27):
but because we deserve it, because the government owes us,
we are going to hold them to account, to give
them what they to give us what they owe. That's great,
But at the same time, we were not building a
simultaneous system for things that we should also receive. In
all of the attempts that we've had historically, from the
Freedman's Bank to Garrison Fraser and the special Order Special
(14:48):
Order Number fifteen to now, you know, to every demand
we've had, it is somehow still related back to what
the government must do. I think that the place where
we've missed is what we must also do just in
case the government does what the government does and does
not do what there or give.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Us what they owe us.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Can I attract the mythology of the sure because I
think it's just built on a myth. I think it
is mythology. I want to hear it because whether you're black, white,
or other, when those folks have gone gotten into places
of wealth, those individuals have not necessarily taken those resources
(15:41):
and put them back into building stronger society. They've largely
concentrated them on themselves, in many cases, saving their own
money and taking the government's money and using that money
as it's leverage to build even more wealth. And if
not the government's money directly the services provided by the government.
I gave the example of Amazon driving on our road.
But you know, to take it further, the people who
(16:03):
are in favor of abolishing the post office right and
they're saying, you know, it is highly inefficient. This is that.
And the third No, the post office and the government
as its owner, and we as a taxpayers rather as
this owner, have made a guarantee that no matter where
you live at the edges of this earth on in
the United States, you will get mail. Universally. Everybody if
(16:24):
you put a post a stamp and you live within
our you will get mail. Well, guess what. Amazon does
not guarantee that anywhere you live, and in fact, where
they do guarantee it, it is relying on the government
and it's and it's suppostal service to get it the
last mile to the client who asked for So. Even
(16:44):
the private sector, which is you know, supposed to be
so independent and pull yourself up by the boo strips
and we did this by ourselves, are relying on us,
the tax paying people who fund the government, to actually
make their business model work out. Most of the drug
companies in this country, they're not spending the billions, if
(17:05):
not trillions, and research required to take a theory about
a drug that can solve a problem to market. They're
relying on the government. It's research partner institutions, academic institutions
both public and private, to do that work, and then
they come in to monetize it and sell it back
to us for you know, millions on the cost you know,
(17:28):
to create it. And so even those institutions that we
look at as being so successful didn't get there by themselves.
In fact, their success would not be possible but for
their reliance on the government's skirt. All I'm saying is,
if the billionaires can rely on the government to have
their wealth, then why can't everyday, average working people rely
(17:49):
on the government for its own basic services. The government
by which it funds, not that the billionaires fund, but
that we, the working people of this country fund. Why
can Andinavian countries that are all basically monolithic, because they're
largely just, they're largely white. Why can Scandinavian countries provide
these basic levels of services that are not considered, you know,
(18:12):
a sucking on the government teat it is considered what
is humane and what is That's what they're described as basic.
That everybody needs food, everybody needs shelter, safety and security,
and we're going to provide those things that are most
basic in humanity. And then everything above that you go
out and you earn for yourselves. Because the truth is
(18:32):
is that for those of us who think we're going
out and earn it for ourselves, who are working, breaking
their backs to work, the system of capitalism as we
understand it and know it and experience it. Hearing this
country still doesn't pay me a wage that I can
take care of myself and my family.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
It's a big part of the trauma for me because
I hear what you're saying. I completely agree, and I'm
still caught up in my own hypocrisy around it. I
think it's so embedded in us, you know, that we'd
have to spend so much time on learning it. Growing
up without is a traumatic experience, you know, Like I
still every single day, I do little stupid things that
(19:09):
why don't want I'm trying to speak kinder to myself.
I don't want to say it's stupid, but things that
I have learned to do. So like when I go
to get a paper towel, you know, maybe I need
to wipe the counter down, I'm grabbing a paper towel.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
I will not pull a whole paper towel.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I'm pulling a little piece of that paper, like as
much as I think I need, because I'm trying to
preserve if I have toothpaste, you know, like I'm.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Taking it to the white meat, you know, like all.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Right, And I can afford, Praise God, I can afford
to go out and buy a new toothpast. I can
afford to go buy new paper towels, whatever, But my
mind is such that I remember, it's a scarcity mindset
that whatever I have today I might not have tomorrow,
so let me preserved. I'm like that with lotion, just everything,
(20:04):
and so it is a constant and so that is
a part of my desire for wealth. I'm always afraid
that I'm going to go back. So even you know,
on a flight, it's like, okay, maybe a code seat
is the best way to take a two hour.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Flight, you know, like just grab it.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
But in my mind it's like, once you accept that,
then that is like you have taken a step back,
you have shifted timelines, and now you're going back this way.
And there is trauma around that. There's trauma around of course. Yeah,
not having enough for sure, and in this time and
a time such as this, clinging so desperately to what
(20:39):
we have because we don't know what's coming tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
That's real. And you're not doing stupid things. You're doing
things that life has taught you. Yeah, your experience has
taught you. And by the way, some of that stuff
shouldn't be thrown off simply because we can afford more expensive.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
So it's getting a new Earth is new expensive as well.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
And good luck if you're trying.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
To reusable paper towels now that I refuse.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, that is interesting. I can't wait to see you
try that. I do think we have to unlearn a
lot about what we are, what we have taught ourselves
in what society has taught us, because we keep you know,
we even talking point, you know, we regurgitate things that
(21:27):
the culture has you know, of that time has sort
of adopted and haven't even interrogated the truthfulness of it. Yeah,
you know, people how to go out and get a
job and earn for themselves. Well, yeah, guess what, I
know people who are working multiples of those and still
aren't earning it. So who's who's who's that fault for this?
The people who are breaking their necks and spending their
(21:48):
minimum eight hours likely ten to twelve working, or the
people who are failing to pay them what they are worth,
who are failing to pay them what they deserve. And
so I just think systems of of uh, the financial
systems like the one that we have where you can
earn as much as you want to and that and
I've got thoughts on whether or not that I'll have
some whatever, But but largely the people who got earn
(22:10):
your innovation and your your hard work is rewarded. But
your innovation and hard work is not aure to you
because you have become a billionaire necessarily, because there are
a lot of cheats who are right now at the
top of society economic realms of society who didn't necessarily
earn it. Okay, but but but and there are a
lot of folks who are breakneck who do earn it
and still aren't being rewarded for what they what they
(22:32):
really do earn by way of their contributions. But but that,
but but that, what we focus on is at the
very minimum, if as human beings who are in this
shared experience, what could we provide as part of a
society that would just meet people's basic human needs? And
if we started there, man, I think the sky has
(22:53):
the limits for where they could take it. You know
how many inventors exist right now as working people who
don't have the resource. This is where the networks to
scale their idea. You create openings for for for growth.
We create openings. If we can get past desperation and
just trying to survive, past that, you can get to
(23:13):
innovation and thriving for everybody can we as.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Black folks This is not my idea, this is Natasha Brown,
But can we as black folks trade directly with other
countries legally?
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Because we're the innovative people.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
We have all these ideas, and so she was saying, like,
why can't we orchestrate our own trade deals in the government?
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Can't we? But right now, good luck in the next week,
because the government under Trump has just removed dominus deminimus
minimums for mail link packages. So previously anything that was
mailed from another country to one other country, thinking about
packaging and sending and trading, but moreover, thinking about people
who use the internet to buy a lot of their
(23:58):
goods from other that are made in other places. And
that is they used to be eight hundred dollars. Anything
under eight hundred dollars in value, they didn't have to
pay the tariffs on and they didn't have to pay
the access and postage. For now the Trump administration has
removed a minimus and next week those tariffs are going
(24:19):
to be hitting those products and you're going to be
paying mountains more than what you paid before. So yes,
the government has restrictions on how you can do that,
and you but part of this is what you know
from when you fly on a plane in your first
class and you make those declarations about what you're bringing
back and what you're taking that there are there are
caps on what you can do. But Trump Trump and
(24:40):
his administration has made that burdens made it even more burdensome.
And in seven or so days or whenever you're listening
to this, about a week from today of our talking,
that price is going to is going to go up
pretty significantly for most people. Ye'ah. I know we have
entered and weaned into a couple of different areas, but
I want to thank Tiffany for this topic because I
(25:02):
think it is one that we really ought to continue
to interrogate and revisit. And that is what kind of
system would we build if we had our brothers build
and participate in. But for our listeners, we thank you,
of course for giving us a little bit more of
your time. We do not take it for granted. You've
got many choices, and we're really glad and thankful that
you choose us. We hope also that you will listen
(25:23):
to the other shows that are available on this platform
and obviously rate, review, subscribe, and share with all of
your friends. We are Tiffany Cross, angela Ryan I Manager,
gill Them Welcome home, Welcome home, y'all.
Speaker 6 (25:42):
Thank you for joining the Natives. Attention of what the
info and all of the latest rock Gillim and Cross
connected to the statements that you leave on our socials.
Thank you sincerely for the patients, reason for your choices clear,
so grateful to execute roles for serve, defend and protect
the truth in this case, and.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
We'll walk home to all of the Natives.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
We thank you. Native plant Pot is a production of
iHeartRadio in partnership with Recent Choice Media. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
(26:25):
you listen to your favorite shows.
Nigga Lampod is a production of iHeartRadio in partnership with
Reason Choice Media. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome home, everybody.
This is of course your family here over at Native Lampod.
This is this week's mini pod, which I want to
go ahead and kick over to my good co host
(00:20):
and Fran Tiffany to I think pick up from some
of the themes that we began at invest Fest. And
there was one particular topic Tiffany, if you recalled it,
you opened up that I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well, let me just first say thank you again to
Troy and Rashid, who hosts invest Fest. I'm sure you
guys may already follow them on social media. They had
an amazing gathering with tens of thousands of people who
came with financial literacy inquiry and it was a great
networking opportunity and they were polite enough to extend us
(00:54):
the stage and we were joined by amazing guests. So
if you haven't checked out that episode, please be sure
you can find that episode on all Native Land properties.
During this conversation, we you know, were posing each other
questions and Angela pulled the audience a few times, and
I was sitting there or watching tens of thousands of
(01:15):
people in the audience, and I started thinking, like, gosh,
we're all sitting here trying to build wealth while democracy
is falling around us, and we have this audience before us.
How can we meet the moment to address some of
these other things That's got me on this whole philosophical kick.
So I asked my fellow co host, the panelists, and
(01:39):
the audience, just the plan a seed of thought that
can black people thrive and survive in the very system
of capitalism, which in America was born out of the plantation.
So it was, you know, it was a lot of
like cheers and yeah, but when I asked that question,
(02:01):
it was a little quiet.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
It was a little quiet.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
We're talking about entrepreneurship, and you touched on this so beautifully,
Reverend Bryant, when you talked about chase your purpose and
not your profit.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
And I'm just.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Sitting here wondering because so many people in entrepreneurship, a
lot of people want to become Their goal is to
you know, make millions, And I just wonder, the system
of capitalism originated on the plantation, and if we are
trying to build empires and not community. Does this system
(02:36):
of capitalism serve us? We may not be able to
answer that on the panel, but I just want to
throw that out to the audience to think about it
as we're building businesses and hopefully building community, And if
y'all had thoughts.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
On it, I would love to hear it.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
But I'm happy I posed it because it wasn't necessarily
meant to be addressed then, but I wanted to at
least plant that seed of thought because even that seems
like their way of doing things. If we are, if
we become individuals just trying to build our own empires,
trying to build wealth, it seems like that adopts the
whitest right way. Before we came to America, there were
(03:15):
systems that there was no capitalism, you know, like we
just didn't function that way.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Are you talking bothering? Because because I think that's part
of what I'd like to invite from you now that
we've got a little bit of time on it. Yeah,
is how you may I don't want you to describe
the perfect system, but if you have that, you would
describe that you would want to be in a system
of the economy or replacing the current form of economy
(03:42):
we have, Like, what are the elements? What are some
of the elements you might want to be included there?
Or what you might want to make sure we avoid.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yes, so to me, if our it poses the question,
if our basic needs are met, what do we get
to create?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Who do we get to be? How do we get
to function?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So there are political systems and there are economic systems,
and some would argue in capitalism, I think Ibram Kendy said,
I think racism and capitalism are twin components. Forgive me,
Ebrahm if I'm misquoting you, so for me, And I've
also read a few books about this. One I've referenced
here is the work of fiction called Sky Full of Elephants.
(04:26):
For me, I wonder like, if I'm just living in
my space, growing in my garden and it's I can
I can give to you? I have home, I have food,
I have shelter. And if I'm growing greens and carrots
and potatoes in my garden and you're growing turnips and
strawberries and peaches in your garden, can we function that
(04:48):
way in this black city? That the guest in our
main episode this week post in this black city.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Is it possible, you know? And I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I think it's worth having an action ual economists maybe
address some of this, because I don't know what that
looks like, but I at least want us to think
about it.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I wonder too, if we should be.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Presuming that everybody wants the same things. Like part of
what I heard you saying Tiff earlier was, you know,
there's this idea that the convening that earn your leisure
is the entity that puts on investmentst Is there something
tone deaf about that right now? And there are people
(05:33):
who are participating in those convenings, in those conferences, wanting
to be a part of, you know, an investment group
because they have always felt the way that some of
us are feeling right now. Right They've always felt under attack,
They've always felt like they don't have enough, they always
feel like they're having to choose one basic necessity from another.
(05:54):
And the thing that I'm kind of fascinated by in
this conversation is like, yeah, I'm like I want to
set up mutual aid networks and bartering systems and all
these things. But there are a lot of people who
are like, nah, I've been kind of doing some element
of that, you know, Rob Peter to pay Paul, even
though I would not put that stank spent on bartering.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
But just go at me for a second.
Speaker 5 (06:16):
So the mentality is now shifted to what do I
need to do to secure the bag. We hear that
language a lot or back at the back in our day,
it was you know, get that money made right, like
all of these things where or get your hustle on
or whatever. There is some right, there's a thing where
there is something we're aspiring to. And I don't think
that aspiration is rooted in basic needs. It isn't being
(06:39):
you know, a real estate mogul where you have a
ton of rental properties. It's being able to get that
yacht and you set it off with your friends with
the with asus spades. It's being able to get you know,
a may back and you know cha Chase Rick Ross
who found his dumb ass in the target the other day.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
By the way, but I did I digress.
Speaker 5 (06:58):
Uh, you know, there are all of these things, and
I believe it's probably paid for it, like Hai Sanata,
We'll do that another time. I think my point is
that from our rap lyrics to.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
You know, some of the people who we.
Speaker 5 (07:11):
Aspire for the fact that they're Yes, the small number
of black billionaires that exist, there is a deep desire
to increase that number. And so if that is the case,
bartering is not what they're striving for. You are rightly
talking about survival in this moment. But if I'm honest,
that doesn't get me closer to you know, taking my
(07:33):
parents to Africa for.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
A month, you know, Like I've been bawling on a budget.
I would like to be off the budget, please.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
Any So, I don't know if that in and of
itself is capitalism or if it's capitalism influence, But I
just wonder if there is safe if there's space for
two of those ideas to safely coexist. And I don't know,
but I think that's that's what I'm wrestling with, Like,
do we say that, you know, okay, we're a capitalist
(08:01):
because we're a capitalist society. In order for us to
ball not on a budget, we too have to be capitalist?
Or is there a way for us to still have
abundance in a system that's.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Rooted in bartering and all that. Anyway, I'm in so well.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
We have abundance. Can everybody have abundance? And I don't
I write that that's I don't know. And I don't
want to sit here and perpetrate either. I to desire
wealth like I work towards it. People you know, constantly
call out my hypocrisy because I mean, look, I'll be honest.
(08:33):
I'm probably not going to fly coach unless it's like
some sort of thing. I know that sounds horrible, but
I literally will forget because they're like, oh, your luggage
is over. I'm like, no, it's not. And it's like, oh,
I forget, Like if you're you know, you have a
different luggage it is listen. I'm just being honest. It
is a lifestyle that I aim for that and then
(08:54):
when it shakes, you're like, oh, I am married to
this system of capitalism. I was an argument with somebody
and he's very successful, and I was arguing with him
basically saying like, okay, but your success doesn't define you.
You could be some little African American history professor somewhere
and that's like a dupe thing.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
And he was like, do you hear yourself?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
You said some little African American history like there is
a ranking, and grant car is one of my favorite people.
Like all, I put these people in the highest respect.
But to be told to have my words reflected back
(09:36):
to me that way, I did actually wonder like, oh,
I have some of this embedded in who I am,
and that's not okay?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
How do I unlearn those things?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
The hierarchy part. I didn't like hearing that repeated back
to me. I was like, oh, that is true, like
when I say some little you know.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I didn't like that. But why do you have to
put a judgment, like a judgment value on whether or
not you desire nice things and to fly?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
No, get I get the hypocrisy. I'm just saying why
from a value set? To me? All right, I guess
I am. I'm absolutely in in the capitalist system as
we are. If you live here in America, unless you're
off the grid and you do your own thing, I
would be. I'm more concerned with where you You sort
(10:24):
of hinted that, which is, what about the basic of
needs being established across? What?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Why?
Speaker 1 (10:29):
What? Why can't our system of capitalism establish a universal
floor by which from that floor you can go on
to achieve all the things in the world that you
may want to. But at a very basic level, you're
going to have a house, You're.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Gonna guarantee income or something like you.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
At a basic level, you're gonna have access to health
care that doesn't break the bank and break you for
going in you know, to see about a communicable disease
that you can transfer to other people, or a cold
or a cough again that you can transfer to other people.
That could equal much more. But we have impact on
them than you. But so I just I wish our
system of capitalism made more room and put more emphasis
(11:08):
on a floor that way, I'm not trying to cap
your future. I'm not trying to put a cap on
all the wonderful, amazing things you can earn and buy
and create, which is what a lot of people fear
when we have universal systems of anything, is that all
you want to do is cap my income or cap
my potential, cap my innovation, take it away if you regulate,
(11:29):
or so on and so forth. So I don't want
to attack that part, even though I do believe that
that part ought to be taxed appropriately, that they ought
to make the contributions back to society as much as
their secretaries do, which doesn't exist in today's capitalist society
and most forms. I believe the Donald Trump's of the world,
and okay, maybe you're not him, but the most successful
(11:51):
capitalists in this country largely believe that they shouldn't pay
taxes because their contributions to the country is the fact
that they create jobs for people here. I mean, I've
heard wealthy people say that my contribution is is that
I give other people a place to work. That's all fine.
What I'm concerned about is your financial contribution back for
all that you have taken from the country. Amazon. You
(12:14):
may be Amazon and you're the wealthiest guy and this
kind of thing, but you're you're relying on the roads
that we pay for in our taxes to move across
to get your goods and services to people. You're not
paying for that. But I am so. I just I
think that we deserve a conversation about what would a
universal floor, a point by which everybody ought to start from.
(12:34):
For black folks, at one point, it was the guarantee
of forty acres and a mule for our service or
for our renders service extracted from us, with no payment
system in place whatsoever. It's still none. So if I
had it my way, it would be it would be
a Roosevelt era Second New Deal of what people can
(12:54):
expect at a base level in this economy to have
to meet their basic needs, and anything above that basic
need then you can work in Claw four.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Okay, I can get with that. What do you call that? System?
Speaker 1 (13:11):
With democracy? But I don't know.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Also overreliance on government, and I think this.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Is the one no no, no, not an overreliance on government.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
That's if it's no, well, well I think it's mine.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
So this is my argument right now.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
Now, if Andrew was the president, i'd be with it,
because I know it's about to happen, right and I
think the reality is, not only do we are we
not getting a New Deal twenty twenty five, we got
Project twenty twenty five. And as a result of getting
Project twenty twenty five, some of the basic things that
we have relied upon for decades are now also not
just at risk, but literally on the chopping block. And
(13:46):
it any moment, folks will start to fill the real
economic hardships from those things being pulled back. So one
of the things that that I reference a lot is
this comment from Congressman Rango Make God Rest his soul,
who was one of the founders of the Congressional Black Caucus.
When he was retiring, he said that he often wonders
(14:06):
if we spend too much time focusing on social policy
and not enough on economic policy. And I think his
perspective on that was many of the things that we
seek to change socially we could address if we had
our own resource. But what we've done is we've set
up a system where because we deserve it. Right, we're
not saying we don't deserve it the government doesn't owe us,
(14:27):
but because we deserve it, because the government owes us,
we are going to hold them to account, to give
them what they to give us what they owe. That's great,
But at the same time, we were not building a
simultaneous system for things that we should also receive. In
all of the attempts that we've had historically, from the
Freedman's Bank to Garrison Fraser and the special Order Special
(14:48):
Order Number fifteen to now, you know, to every demand
we've had, it is somehow still related back to what
the government must do. I think that the place where
we've missed is what we must also do just in
case the government does what the government does and does
not do what there or give.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
Us what they owe us.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Can I attract the mythology of the sure because I
think it's just built on a myth. I think it
is mythology. I want to hear it because whether you're black, white,
or other, when those folks have gone gotten into places
of wealth, those individuals have not necessarily taken those resources
(15:41):
and put them back into building stronger society. They've largely
concentrated them on themselves, in many cases, saving their own
money and taking the government's money and using that money
as it's leverage to build even more wealth. And if
not the government's money directly the services provided by the government.
I gave the example of Amazon driving on our road.
But you know, to take it further, the people who
(16:03):
are in favor of abolishing the post office right and
they're saying, you know, it is highly inefficient. This is that.
And the third No, the post office and the government
as its owner, and we as a taxpayers rather as
this owner, have made a guarantee that no matter where
you live at the edges of this earth on in
the United States, you will get mail. Universally. Everybody if
(16:24):
you put a post a stamp and you live within
our you will get mail. Well, guess what. Amazon does
not guarantee that anywhere you live, and in fact, where
they do guarantee it, it is relying on the government
and it's and it's suppostal service to get it the
last mile to the client who asked for So. Even
(16:44):
the private sector, which is you know, supposed to be
so independent and pull yourself up by the boo strips
and we did this by ourselves, are relying on us,
the tax paying people who fund the government, to actually
make their business model work out. Most of the drug
companies in this country, they're not spending the billions, if
(17:05):
not trillions, and research required to take a theory about
a drug that can solve a problem to market. They're
relying on the government. It's research partner institutions, academic institutions
both public and private, to do that work, and then
they come in to monetize it and sell it back
to us for you know, millions on the cost you know,
(17:28):
to create it. And so even those institutions that we
look at as being so successful didn't get there by themselves.
In fact, their success would not be possible but for
their reliance on the government's skirt. All I'm saying is,
if the billionaires can rely on the government to have
their wealth, then why can't everyday, average working people rely
(17:49):
on the government for its own basic services. The government
by which it funds, not that the billionaires fund, but
that we, the working people of this country fund. Why
can Andinavian countries that are all basically monolithic, because they're
largely just, they're largely white. Why can Scandinavian countries provide
these basic levels of services that are not considered, you know,
(18:12):
a sucking on the government teat it is considered what
is humane and what is That's what they're described as basic.
That everybody needs food, everybody needs shelter, safety and security,
and we're going to provide those things that are most
basic in humanity. And then everything above that you go
out and you earn for yourselves. Because the truth is
(18:32):
is that for those of us who think we're going
out and earn it for ourselves, who are working, breaking
their backs to work, the system of capitalism as we
understand it and know it and experience it. Hearing this
country still doesn't pay me a wage that I can
take care of myself and my family.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
It's a big part of the trauma for me because
I hear what you're saying. I completely agree, and I'm
still caught up in my own hypocrisy around it. I
think it's so embedded in us, you know, that we'd
have to spend so much time on learning it. Growing
up without is a traumatic experience, you know, Like I
still every single day, I do little stupid things that
(19:09):
why don't want I'm trying to speak kinder to myself.
I don't want to say it's stupid, but things that
I have learned to do. So like when I go
to get a paper towel, you know, maybe I need
to wipe the counter down, I'm grabbing a paper towel.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
I will not pull a whole paper towel.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
I'm pulling a little piece of that paper, like as
much as I think I need, because I'm trying to
preserve if I have toothpaste, you know, like I'm.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Taking it to the white meat, you know, like all.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Right, And I can afford, Praise God, I can afford
to go out and buy a new toothpast. I can
afford to go buy new paper towels, whatever, But my
mind is such that I remember, it's a scarcity mindset
that whatever I have today I might not have tomorrow,
so let me preserved. I'm like that with lotion, just everything,
(20:04):
and so it is a constant and so that is
a part of my desire for wealth. I'm always afraid
that I'm going to go back. So even you know,
on a flight, it's like, okay, maybe a code seat
is the best way to take a two hour.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Flight, you know, like just grab it.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
But in my mind it's like, once you accept that,
then that is like you have taken a step back,
you have shifted timelines, and now you're going back this way.
And there is trauma around that. There's trauma around of course. Yeah,
not having enough for sure, and in this time and
a time such as this, clinging so desperately to what
(20:39):
we have because we don't know what's coming tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
That's real. And you're not doing stupid things. You're doing
things that life has taught you. Yeah, your experience has
taught you. And by the way, some of that stuff
shouldn't be thrown off simply because we can afford more expensive.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
So it's getting a new Earth is new expensive as well.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
And good luck if you're trying.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
To reusable paper towels now that I refuse.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, that is interesting. I can't wait to see you
try that. I do think we have to unlearn a
lot about what we are, what we have taught ourselves
in what society has taught us, because we keep you know,
we even talking point, you know, we regurgitate things that
(21:27):
the culture has you know, of that time has sort
of adopted and haven't even interrogated the truthfulness of it. Yeah,
you know, people how to go out and get a
job and earn for themselves. Well, yeah, guess what, I
know people who are working multiples of those and still
aren't earning it. So who's who's who's that fault for this?
The people who are breaking their necks and spending their
(21:48):
minimum eight hours likely ten to twelve working, or the
people who are failing to pay them what they are worth,
who are failing to pay them what they deserve. And
so I just think systems of of uh, the financial
systems like the one that we have where you can
earn as much as you want to and that and
I've got thoughts on whether or not that I'll have
some whatever, But but largely the people who got earn
(22:10):
your innovation and your your hard work is rewarded. But
your innovation and hard work is not aure to you
because you have become a billionaire necessarily, because there are
a lot of cheats who are right now at the
top of society economic realms of society who didn't necessarily
earn it. Okay, but but but and there are a
lot of folks who are breakneck who do earn it
and still aren't being rewarded for what they what they
(22:32):
really do earn by way of their contributions. But but that,
but but that, what we focus on is at the
very minimum, if as human beings who are in this
shared experience, what could we provide as part of a
society that would just meet people's basic human needs? And
if we started there, man, I think the sky has
(22:53):
the limits for where they could take it. You know
how many inventors exist right now as working people who
don't have the resource. This is where the networks to
scale their idea. You create openings for for for growth.
We create openings. If we can get past desperation and
just trying to survive, past that, you can get to
(23:13):
innovation and thriving for everybody can we as.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Black folks This is not my idea, this is Natasha Brown,
But can we as black folks trade directly with other
countries legally?
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Because we're the innovative people.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
We have all these ideas, and so she was saying, like,
why can't we orchestrate our own trade deals in the government?
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Can't we? But right now, good luck in the next week,
because the government under Trump has just removed dominus deminimus
minimums for mail link packages. So previously anything that was
mailed from another country to one other country, thinking about
packaging and sending and trading, but moreover, thinking about people
who use the internet to buy a lot of their
(23:58):
goods from other that are made in other places. And
that is they used to be eight hundred dollars. Anything
under eight hundred dollars in value, they didn't have to
pay the tariffs on and they didn't have to pay
the access and postage. For now the Trump administration has
removed a minimus and next week those tariffs are going
(24:19):
to be hitting those products and you're going to be
paying mountains more than what you paid before. So yes,
the government has restrictions on how you can do that,
and you but part of this is what you know
from when you fly on a plane in your first
class and you make those declarations about what you're bringing
back and what you're taking that there are there are
caps on what you can do. But Trump Trump and
(24:40):
his administration has made that burdens made it even more burdensome.
And in seven or so days or whenever you're listening
to this, about a week from today of our talking,
that price is going to is going to go up
pretty significantly for most people. Ye'ah. I know we have
entered and weaned into a couple of different areas, but
I want to thank Tiffany for this topic because I
(25:02):
think it is one that we really ought to continue
to interrogate and revisit. And that is what kind of
system would we build if we had our brothers build
and participate in. But for our listeners, we thank you,
of course for giving us a little bit more of
your time. We do not take it for granted. You've
got many choices, and we're really glad and thankful that
you choose us. We hope also that you will listen
(25:23):
to the other shows that are available on this platform
and obviously rate, review, subscribe, and share with all of
your friends. We are Tiffany Cross, angela Ryan I Manager,
gill Them Welcome home, Welcome home, y'all.
Speaker 6 (25:42):
Thank you for joining the Natives. Attention of what the
info and all of the latest rock Gillim and Cross
connected to the statements that you leave on our socials.
Thank you sincerely for the patients, reason for your choices clear,
so grateful to execute roles for serve, defend and protect
the truth in this case, and.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
We'll walk home to all of the Natives.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
We thank you. Native plant Pot is a production of
iHeartRadio in partnership with Recent Choice Media. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
(26:25):
you listen to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Tiffany Cross
Andrew Gillum
Angela Rye
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.