July 14, 2022 • 53 mins
Ayleen Charlotte was looking for love in all the usual places: online. Tinder to be exact. When she started her relationship with con man, Simon Leviev, it was just like a fairytale, filled with love, gifts, and a very handsome boyfriend who doted on her. Everything took a turn when she found Simon on her Instagram feed labeled as the Tinder Swindler. The man she thought she knew and loved, has reportedly swindled about $10 million from victims across Europe. In this episode we learn about love bombing, manipulation and empathy; and what Ayleen did to get back at the man that stole so much from her.
Host Information:
Instagram: Dr Ramani's IG - @doctorramani
Facebook: Dr Ramani's FB - @doctorramani
Twitter: Dr Ramani's TW - @DoctorRamani
YouTube: Dr. Ramani’s YT - DoctorRamani
Guest Information:
Instagram: Ayleen’s IG - @ayleencharlott
Guest Bio:
In The Tinder Swindler, Ayleen reveals how she ended up entangled in the web of lies created by whom she believed to be her boyfriend, Simon. For well over a year, through a strategy he refined by trying out the same lies on other women simultaneously, she was made to believe both their lives were in danger, and built up an eye-watering debt along the way. When she discovered the deception, she chose to turn the tables and took revenge by selling his expensive collection of designer brand clothes. Ayleen felt she had to make a radical choice between victimhood or becoming a beacon of female empowerment for herself and others. Her experiences prompted Ayleen to make her life-long entrepreneurial dreams come true, as she is working to launch her own wine label.
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Navigating Narcissism is produced by Red Table Talk Podcasts. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: Jada Pinkett-Smith, Fallon Jethroe, Ellen Rakieten, and Dr. Ramani Durvasula. PRODUCER: Matthew Jones, ASSOCIATE PRODUCER: Mara De La Rosa. EDITORS AND AUDIO MIXERS: Devin Donaghy and Calvin Bailiff.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This
(00:24):
episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people.
The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the
podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do
not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I
Heart Media, or their employees. The worst part is that
(00:48):
he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, correct,
but he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did,
and that's even way worse than the money he took.
In this episode, we are going to hear the story
of Eileen Charlotte, who knew that swiping right could cause
(01:08):
such a world of hurt. Now, lots of people have
had bad match stories on Tinder, but this is a
whole different level. The Tinder swindler managed to steal millions
of dollars from multiple women from around the world, most
of whom fell for his charm, charisma, love bombing, false promises,
(01:30):
and ultimately his scam. Eileen Charlotte was one of the
women who got caught up in the twisted story of
Simon the Tinder Swindler. Simon posted a lavish lifestyle and
Instagram and Tinder a well traveled, attractive, and fun loving guy,
and he matched with Eileen. In the months to follow,
(01:53):
Eileen found herself falling in love with Simon. They moved
in and planned a future together. At the same time, though,
he kept pressuring her for money, claiming that he was
in danger because of his business and had to hide
from people who were coming after him. Eileen ended up
loaning him over one hundred and forty thousand dollars, which
(02:16):
he had promised to pay back, and she almost lost
her home. He left her feeling that her own life
and her family's lives were at risk. Eileen's story is
the cautionary tale of a fairy tale gone dark. Her
story is no different than that of many young women.
Like so many others, she's ambitious with a zest for life,
(02:39):
and she was just simply looking for love. The Netflix
documentary The Tinder Swindler made waves around the world and
changed Eileen's life overnight. The Tinder Swindler is not just
a story of an online scammer. It's a story about narcissism.
(03:00):
This story teaches us that when you combine the manipulative
ingredients of narcissism with the hope of a love story,
you end up with a broken heart and an empty
bank account. Eileen is here to tell this story and
how she, in her fashion, triumphed in the end. We
(03:21):
are going to break down love bombing and the overall
architecture of the narcissistic relationship, as well as her path
of healing from not just the financial debt, but the
emotional debt. Instead of glorifying the grifter, this is the
story of the survivor. So welcome, Aileen. It's so nice
(03:48):
to have you. Thank you so much, and thank you
so much for having me as well. Of course, Eileen,
so could you break down for us, aside from the
sort of surface level things, what attracted you to him
and led you to fall in love. Now, he was
very interested in me on a personal level, what I
(04:10):
was doing, my friends, my family, the way I lived,
and it immediately created a bond because he had a
different lifestyle. But still we we had a great connection
because he was still like a down to earth guy
who was also looking for love, and that's what made
me really attracted to him. That is such an important
(04:32):
thing to note when it came down to it. What
I'm hearing is that it was really that he was
deeply interested in you. We all know that charm and
charisma and confidence can often attract us to someone, but
we can't underestimate curiosity. Simon was interested in Eileen's life
(04:54):
and wanted to learn about her. Charisma maybe dazzling, but
intense curiosity can be seductive in a way that leaves
a person not even thinking about red flags. I was
traveling a lot for work, and he always came to
visit me. For example, when I was in Barcelona for
work trip, or when I was in London for a
(05:16):
work trip, he came to visit me, which is also
very special because someone is just flying over the earth
because he's so busy and still he made some time
for me to see me and to meet me. So
that also made me feel and made me fall in
love with him, because yeah, it really felt that he
(05:38):
was interested in me and not my looks or I
don't know, so I'm sure it was all of them, right,
you know, it was all of that he was interested
in you. But coming back to that point, though, the
way the story has been told is that it was
all very flashy and exciting, but what he was bringing
to the table really was that he was interested in you,
and you were interested in him, and he was very attentive.
(06:00):
And I think that we underestimate how important that is.
No matter what a person brings the table, gifts, experiences, whatever,
it's that really focused attention interest that somebody has in
us that's really really appealing. So that's a universal theme, right, yes, yes,
of course, And it doesn't matter where you are with
(06:22):
a person, because for example, I also had a small
dinner in a small Italian restaurant and we were just
eating pizza, so it wasn't all fleshy like it's been
described in the documentary as well. Now, can you tell
us about how it was when the two of you
moved in together. It was really nice in the beginning.
We had a lot of fun and I could finally
(06:43):
like really be together with him. And because sometimes when
you're traveling a lot, he was over there, I was
over there, so sometimes it was really difficult to see
each other, but now he was actually there all the time,
And did you find yourself growing closer to him at
this time or were there any issues that came up.
He build up the story about his enemies and that
(07:07):
he got attacked, like we are also seen in the
movie that he and his bodyguard were attacked, and he
created this story about the enemies who wanted him dead,
and he needed to live a little bit undetected. So
that's why he moved in with me, because yeah, everything
was under my name and nothing was under his name.
(07:30):
He was also starting to use my money, so yeah,
those were the difficulties I needed to face. But he
made his company sent me a check to cover all
the money he um he was using from me, So
I thought everything was fine. Yeah, of course, of course
you did, right. I mean, that's why wouldn't you write
(07:51):
it's right there, it's right there in black and white,
there's a check. And we talked about these red flags
as though they are so obvious, like these big neon
signs that anyone can see in retrospect. The idea that
he had these enemies out for him feels outlandish. And
her covering and paying the bills, the suspicious, but narcissistic
(08:15):
people are so skilled at taking bizarre and shady stuff
and putting it together into what feels like a plausible narrative.
And Eileen cared about him, So whenever we care about someone,
we make the pieces fit. So let's go back and
talk a little bit about love bombing, right, because in
(08:36):
this kind of a relationship, we see it every single time,
and love bombing is a sort of really intense at
times even overwhelming, early phase of the relationship. Now it
can look different in different kinds of relationships, right, but
it basically is the early part of the relationship is
characterized by something that almost feels like a fairy tale
(08:58):
or a fantasy. It's that intense, it's that overwhelming. When
you look back on this relationship with Simon, what parts
or what experiences would you identify as the love bombing
in the beginning, because he started to ask money from
me after almost seven months, But he was so generous
(09:20):
in the months before. He was so open, and he
called me up every day, and also every time when
I made a transaction to him, he was so sweet.
If I got the money, and he was bombing me
and bombing me and bombing me with love and I
want to marry you, I want to have kids with you,
(09:41):
I want to be with you, I want to grow
old with you. But at some point when I, for example,
didn't get the money or confronted him with like, what
are you doing? I'm sending you all this money and
it's never enough for you, then he always got angry
and mad. So as a woman in a relationship, you
always want to go back to the part when it
(10:05):
was nice. So you really hope to get the feeling
again of the love you had. Okay, so there's a
lot we can unpack here. When a narcissistic person feels
satisfied or safe in a relationship, they promised the sun
and moon to a partner. They make future faked promises,
(10:28):
things that they say will happen, but they never will. However,
when the narcissistic person is tense or their needs aren't
being met, that's when you see the rage and the manipulation.
If you don't know what you are dealing with, this
can be really confusing. How long would you say that
that love bombing period lasted with Simon? I think it
(10:51):
was the whole period of me having a relationship with him.
It's difficult to describe because in the beginning everything was
good and he stayed sweet all the time because he
needed something from me. It's interesting what you're describing here, Eileen,
because when we think of it from this sort of
framework of the more sort of toxic or narcissistic relationship.
(11:13):
I'm so glad you brought this up, because we often
think of these a separate phases. There's love bombing and
then things go wrong. But what was happening for you
is something that happens a lot. Is the two are interlinked,
and he had an agenda, right he wanted something from you.
In this particular case, it was money. In another relationship
it could be something else, but in this case it
was money. So when he saw that all of his
(11:35):
sort of charming, attentive behavior got him what he wanted.
It got him the money he wanted to keep his
scheme going. Then he would almost relax, and in that
relaxing he would become very very sweet. I want to
marry you, I want to grow old with you, all
these things that are very very seductive to hear. But
any moment that you would have pushback. Why do you
(11:57):
need it so fast? Or why do you even need
this much? Immediately you would see anger. So it's such
an interesting way that this happened, Eileen, because you had
both the love bobbing and the devaluing phases happening at
the same time, and you were pulled back to wanting.
That sort of idealized deductive time was almost there all
(12:18):
the time, Like it was two masks. He was, in
essence wearing two masks, the aggressive, angry, you know, sort
of rageful mask when he didn't get what he wanted,
and this really seductive, loving, attentive mask when he got
what he wanted. And that was the back and forth.
How long until you connected that? Did you ever connect that? Oh,
when I give him the money, he's a really nice guy.
When I don't give him money, he becomes really aggressive.
(12:38):
How long did it take you to figure that out?
I think after a few months of giving him money
and made several transactions to him, I found out that
every time when I didn't gave him money, he got angry,
and he always put the blame on me, and that's why.
(13:00):
And I started to realize that it wasn't actually okay
because in a relationship there are two people and if
you like someone, you don't want to make them feel bad,
and he made every time when I, for example, couldn't
send him the money or didn't send him the money,
(13:20):
he really made me feel bad that it was my
fault that everything would be blown up. Interesting. Blame shifting
is one of the most common narcissistic patterns. Narcissistic people
cannot take responsibility, will not take responsibility, and anything that
goes wrong is blamed on other people. Their grandiosity and
(13:44):
their need to be all powerful means they cannot take
ownership of mistakes because then that means they aren't all that.
Blame shifting is a way for them to maintain their
grandiose facade. And then I started to realize that there
was something wrong. I can't imagine this happening, given how
strong and resolute even I'm noticing you to be in
(14:06):
this conversation. Was there ever a moment you ever thought like, Okay,
if I keep giving him the money, then this relationship
is going to run well or as soon as you
recognize what was going on, you said no, I don't
want to do this anymore. Yes, because it's not fun,
because he really makes you live in fear with his
enemies and people who are hunting him, so he really
(14:28):
makes you live in fear, and at a certain point,
losing all the money and living in fear, I knew
that I didn't want it anymore because this is not
the love I prefer, right, I mean, love and fear
actually are not good flavors together. It doesn't it doesn't
feel good to a greater or lesser degree. All narcissistic
(14:53):
relationships are about fear, and the person in the narcissistic
relationship list in a constant cycle of trying to please
them and never anger them. It can be an actual
fear of their rage, or it can be a fear
of having to really accept what this relationship is, so
people just keep trying to please them until they can't. Eileen,
(15:17):
how did he sell that story to you so that
when he asked you for money it didn't seem alarming.
He always had projects which he was calling and referring
to as operations, and there was always a new operation
to support in a way which he needed money for,
(15:40):
or he needed money for flight tickets and hotels and traveling.
So those kind of things I mostly sponsored in a way.
When he would ask for the money, would you be
able to say, can I have a little bit of
time to think about this? Now, that's the problem with
these type of rodsters. They don't make you think rationally.
(16:03):
For example, if I would ask my friend for money,
I can always say to her or him like, I
will give you two or three weeks to think about
if it's okay or if it's not okay, just think
about it. But with him, he would rather like to
have it yesterday, then tomorrow, and then he's bombing you
and he's calling you all the time constantly and constantly
(16:26):
to push you so far that you don't even got
the time to think about anything, just to think rationally.
And that's the biggest problem with this type of frauds.
That you're in a state of mind and you want
to help someone, but if they are really in need
(16:47):
and they are shouting at you that they are in
a very dangerous situation, yes, of course you're going to
arrange the money. What I'm hearing from you is that
that sense of urgency and danger. If I don't get
this money, he's telling you something terrible it's going to happen. Right,
So you feel this empathy, but you also have this
awareness this is a lot of money. But how do
(17:07):
you think all of that, that sense of this is dangerous,
this has to happen quickly, or something terrible is going
to happen. How do you think that blocked you from
seeing the red flags, seeing the deception. Everything went so
fast I cannot even call it a roller coaster, but
I think I was in twenty five roller coasters at
(17:28):
that moment. Yes, every time there's a different story, every
time there's a different operation, every time he's in need,
there is something happened, a death threat, something which can
maybe even affect me or my family. And with these
type of things, you really feel sorry for someone, but
you also want to protect yourself as well. In a way,
(17:50):
it seems like part of how he was sort of
selling the story was he had images showing sort of
past episodes of things that look like danger and violence.
The story was somewhat believable, but then he really used
that idea of time urgency to pressure you. It reminds
me of people who are thinking of making a major purchase,
and the salesperson is pressure. If you don't buy it now,
(18:10):
you're never going to get it. If you don't buy now,
the price is going to go away in half an hour,
and that's not exactly the conditions under which to make
a great decision. But it's not like you were trying
to buy a car. You are in a relationship with
somebody and being intensely pressured. When you would call him
out on that intensity, saying you've got to slow down,
or this is too quick, or I need to think
about this, what would happen? Then he got angry. You
(18:34):
are ruling this. You are the one who is blowing
everything up because I need the money now. I cannot
wait because then this will happen where this will happen,
or I will die, or I will lose everything, or
you will lose me, or I'm going to kill myself.
And that one was like the worst of course, because
(18:57):
you love someone right here, this is a great example
of the escalated manipulation a narcissistic person will use in
a relationship to get what they need or get what
they feel entitled to. Each time you may try to
set a boundary, they keep leveling up the terrible things
(19:19):
that will happen if you don't give in to them.
It became very manipulative, right, so you are being reasonable
you're asking something reasonable. I need a minute. I need
to think about this. This is a lot of money.
And the manipulation was it sounded like he almost doubted
your commitment to the relationship. Oh, you must not care
very much about me if you have to think about
it and I'm about to die. I think it's so
(19:40):
easy for people to look at the story from the
outside and said I would have just said no. But
if you care about someone and you truly believe this
much harm is going to come, or they even say
they're going to harm themselves, and your commitment is being doubted,
you're so confused at that point to show your commitment
you then end up doing the thing that you're uncomfortable with.
So in essence, he's playing with this idea of consent.
(20:03):
You really weren't consenting to give the money. You were
being coerced to give the money. And I think there's
a there's absolutely, Eileen, that's a really classical example of gaslighting.
You know, people don't understand gaslighting. We always say it's like, oh,
that never happened. We keep it simple. But what he
was doing was he was testing your commitment, and while
in your heart you were clearly committed. He was using
(20:26):
that as a way to manipulate you. Yes, Oh, if
you're really cared about me, then you'd give me the money. Then,
if you really wanted this relationship, you'd give me the
money then, and you know I'm going to pay you back.
And since he had a track record in the history
of paying you back from time to time, it was believable. Yes, correct, Yeah,
because he did pay me back sometimes. And also people
(20:48):
don't understand because I think I did maybe over twenty
five transactions to him, and yes, he did pay me
back sometimes, so you always have the feeling that it
will be okay, there's no doubt because he already paid
me back a few of those times. So it feels
like love bombing for him. And this is the case
(21:09):
with any kind of you know, con man, is that
it's an indoctrination period, like a grooming period, where they
determine is this going to be a a useful person
to me? Can I get what I want from this person?
That's what he was in probably the first few times
he'd ask you for money to see if you'd say yes,
he'd pay you back, because for him, that was him
(21:31):
testing the waters and then once he could see that
I'm able to sell her the idea that, oh, if
you care for me, you give me the money, then
he knew he had you and then held keep that
game going. And that that's every person who's like him
narcissistic in that way. They will always take advantage and
weaponize the other person's empathy. It's the most classical dynamic.
(21:53):
Once they see empathy, they don't see this, Oh, this
is lovely, this is loving, how fortunate I am? They say,
ah ha ha he. Here's a point. It's almost like
a little crack in a window. Here's where I can
break into this house and steal their things. It has
that feel to it. Yes, yes, and I think with
narcissistic people they only care about themselves because, for example,
(22:14):
at the end of everything, I was in such a
bad place. I was in debt, I lost a lot
of my money, I almost lost my house. But even
his problems were worse than mine. Of course, that ability
for the narcissistic person to play the victim is a
very classical element of that personality style. Yes, their problems
(22:36):
are always the worst problems, always, and it's never them,
it's always you know, it's always someone else's fault. There's
no capacity for taking that kind of responsibility. And it's
interesting because you said with someone narcissistic like him, it's
always about them, because beyond that here, for persons that's selfish,
it's always about them. That's unpleasant enough. But then in
(22:57):
the process of everything being about them, they feel they
need to destroy other people because there's absolutely no awareness
that what they're doing is harming the other people. There's
literally it's actually quite unsettling to recognize that somebody was
that unaware of the toll that they were taking on you,
of the harm they were putting on you. Yeah, absolutely,
(23:18):
because for example you you can see it as well
in the documentary, like in the end where I already
knew that I got defrauded and I just wanted to
play a bit with him. It was a bit of
my revenge. You could see that I almost lost my
house and I lost already over one forty now it's
(23:39):
up more but a lot of money. And he felt
bad for himself because he needed to sleep in a hostel.
So in a way, he's always like and he's always
putting it on me, and that was my fault, that
was my mistake because I didn't send him any more money,
and and that's how it's always always framed. I want
(24:01):
to go back to something we're talking about, this idea
of how he used fear to motivate you to give
him money. Something bad is going to happen to him,
or he would do something bad to himself, or even
something bad could happen to you or your family. Right,
So he really really used fear. When somebody uses fear
the way he did, right, Not only did you love
(24:21):
him and care about him, so obviously you didn't want
anything bad to happen to him. But as you would say,
I need a moment, I need to think on this.
He yell let you and scream at you. The thing
I want to understand is, did you ever have a moment, Eileen,
where you thought, I'm not sure you know if this
is the right thing to give him the money. But
if I'm wrong and something terrible happens to him, I'll
(24:44):
feel bad for the rest of my life. Yes, of course,
because if someone is using enemies and life threats as
a weapon, and you actually see, like from the movie
as well, the pictures that he's sending you that he
got attacked, So in a way it's getting real. Yeah,
(25:04):
of course, yeah, yeah, the situation was real, and that's
how he pretended to be. But so you also know
deep down that if something would happen to him, that
you can never regret yourself. Narcissistic relationships are like a
(25:27):
series of bets you make. If I do that, then
they do that, and then I will stay. The relationship
is a series of perpetual tests and deals with the devil.
I wondered, Eileen, as I've learned about your story as
I'm talking to you, is that there's this strange point
you hit where having to live in fear that maybe
(25:49):
you did the wrong thing would actually be worse than
losing the money. Yes, absolutely, because in a way you
can always say like, oh, it's just money, but if
his life is on the line, then it's a human being,
it's a life. And that's where his manipulation was so powerful, right,
(26:09):
because you really had to sit with that possibility of regret.
Nobody likes that. That's a real huge fear for people,
is regret, what if I do the wrong thing? And
as you said, it's in the grand scheme of things,
especially when you love somebody it's only money, and if
this stops him from getting hurt, he really had you
convinced that as long as you give me this money,
(26:31):
I can be protected, and so you wouldn't have to
live again with that regret. So that was a deeply,
deeply manipulative thing for him to do. It was obviously
a sort of a technique he had used with many people,
and he saw that it work. He took advantage of
the empathy, he took advantage of the love. He'd know
that nobody wants to be responsible for harm or death
(26:54):
of another person. He'd use that to extract the money
from a person, and then when it things to happen
fast enough, he'd start yelling and screaming, knowing that that
kind of rage is also frightening for people. Yes, yes, absolutely,
my session with Eileen will continue after this break. So
(27:22):
let's talk about something called trauma bonding. It's how a
person gets stuck in a really toxic relationship cycle. A
central issue in the trauma bonded relationship is that a
person is in a relationship that keeps going from great
too bad, too great, too bad, arguing too happy, arguing
to great day and that back and forth is what
(27:45):
keeps a person stuck because they keep waiting for the
next good day, and even when there's five bad days,
six bad days, there's enough good days to say, well,
I'm really going to hold up for the good day now.
It's almost you know when you go to a casino
and you play that machine, you pull the handle, you
put in the money, and you know, sometimes you get
the money prize. It's like that because and even if
(28:06):
ten times you put in the money nothing comes out,
then you think, Okay, maybe this time I'm gonna get
so much money, maybe there's gonna be a good day.
I think it's just so important to reflect on that
trauma bonded idea. So what we're seeing here, because this
pattern between Eileen and Simon was both trauma bonded but
also kind of quite simple, it makes it even more difficult.
(28:30):
If he got the money when and how he wanted it,
they had a great day. He told her he loved her,
he made big promises. If he didn't get the money,
it was all anger and rage and threats. That back
and force. That promise of a good day is what
keeps people stuck in toxic relationships, just for a brief moment.
(28:54):
I mean, what was your when you were growing up
in childhood? What was your family life like? What was
your parents marriage? Like? My parents marriage was really great.
They grew up in a very loving family. I child
and my parents are already together for over fifty years. Now, wow, wow,
(29:15):
that's okay. So now you just throw me a curveball, girl,
and I'll tell you why. This is why your story
is so amazing, Hili. I mean, I think I think
the story has sort of been mistold, like for oh,
she gave her money away. But there's so much power
to your story because here you were, you grew up.
You kind of defy the stereotype. Right, we always think, oh,
the person who's gonna fall for someone like Simon is
(29:37):
going to have a terrible childhood. Their parents had a
terrible marriage and they had a terrible father, so they
go with this bad guy. You're saying, that's not it
at all, right, your parents had a loving marriage, for
that's lasted a long time because it's a loving marriage.
You felt loved as a child, so you actually believed
in love and ran and I So the trauma boding
(30:01):
for you was interesting because we often think of it
as historical in a person's life. They had this sort
of difficult relationship with their parents, so they reproduce, recreate
that relationship in adulthood. That wasn't your story, not yours.
Was you believed in love? Yes? And I was looking
for love as well, and I'm still looking for love
and I don't think that's a bad thing. But what
(30:24):
is not really told well in the documentary is eight
years ago now, I um, I was in a very
terrible accident. I got robbed by two guys and beaten
up very bad. So sorry, yeah, And I got PTSD
(30:45):
from that. And the worst thing of the situation with
Simon is that he triggered back the pts D because
he knew about it. He knew that I was scared
to be followed, he knew that I was scared to
be alone in the streets at night, and he used
(31:08):
that to trigger back the PTSD. And in a way,
because the PTSD got back, he put me in a
sort of state of mind which it's not you because,
for example, if I look back on all the wstep
messages right now, three years, four years later, I feel
(31:31):
so stupid. But back then I was in a state
of mind which it wasn't me, And especially because he
brought back to PTSD. For example, he knew that I
was scared to be followed, and every time when I
saw someone behind me, I was always a bit nervous
(31:51):
when someone was behind me very close. And at a
certain point, he was living at my house and we
were driving home and we came into the street of
my house and he said, please check every car, please check,
Please drive three rounds through the street to check if
we're not followed. And with those type of things, he
(32:13):
brought back the PTSD. And I think that's the worst
thing he did to me. First of all, I'm so sorry,
Thank you, thank you for sharing that story, because you
you bring up something so important here, Eileen, which is
you had had this, this this history of trauma, right,
and that this kind of a toxic relationship, narcissistic relationship
(32:35):
can actually reactivate all of that. So, like you may
have worked through that trauma. But trauma is a funny thing.
It sits in our bodies, it sits in our minds.
It's still and they can be reactivated. Right. It's always
its all and in some ways it always is going
to be there. But as you get away from this
kind of a toxic experience, you might feel like you
have more tools to cope with it. So eileens talking
(32:57):
about trauma here, and I want to go deeper into this.
Post traumatic discomfort can be activated when we experience anything
that was similar to earlier and past traumas we've experienced.
In Eileen's case, being followed or being reminded of being
followed really brought up those old traumatic experiences for her.
(33:21):
When that traumatic experience is triggered, any of us would
feel anxious, on edge, and even panicky. And the horror
of severe narcissistic relationships is that they have no problem
using your own trauma as a tool of manipulation to
get what they want. When somebody is invalidating you and
(33:45):
manipulating you, and more than anything, leaving you feeling scared,
all of that is going to come back in a flood.
If you talk to any trauma survivor that could have
happened to them twenty years ago, they could be having
an experience now and saying I'm feeling all of this
famili or your stuff, like I don't even feel like
I'm myself now. What's so awful and terrible to hear
(34:06):
about in your story, is that not only did he
weaponize your empathy, You're a loving person, You cared about him,
you didn't want him to suffer, You gave him your money.
The part to me that's beyond unforgivable is that he
weaponized your own history of trauma. And that, to me,
is such a horrible thing to do to a person
(34:29):
because it really becomes such a place you know you
can control them. And this goes back to this, we
don't have to think about love bombing in a different way.
As he got to know you and learned about you
and was so interested in you, that's how he learned
about your history. And learning those things about your history,
he thought, ah, I can actually get a response, I
(34:51):
can get what I want if I bring up this
part of her past. And he used that to throw
you off balance and make you more min pelatable. Interestingly, Eileen,
that's not a crime. But in the psychological court I
live in, you better believe that feels like a crime
to me, Yes, absolutely, And the worst part is that
(35:11):
it can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, correct,
But he cannot be guilty for the mental part he
did and that's even way worse than the money you took.
(35:31):
So in this next session, I lean we're going to
talk a little bit about how you found him out, basically,
how you figured it out. So tell us because this
is I mean, like I said, you are. You are
a rock star in my eyes. I will tell you.
I watched it. I was like, Oh, this girl has
got it going on. You are more courageous than I.
And I say that with the utmost of respect. Clever, courageous,
(35:53):
and I really want you to share with us about
how you found out about who he really was and
how that led you to put all of the pieces
together as well. Thank you so much for the compliment,
because it's the best thing that I can hear from
my action. I was at the airport and Prague where
(36:15):
I was actually with him, and he just dropped me
off at the airport and I opened up my Instagram
and I saw his face coming up on my feet
and I clicked on it, and there I saw this
whole article from a Norwegian newspaper with two girls in it,
better known as Nila and Cecily, and they were talking
(36:40):
about Simon and his actions, what he did to them.
He defrauded them for a lot of money, and while
I was reading the article, I immediately knew because everything
was so similar to my story. I immediately knew that
(37:02):
the story was the girls put out there was true.
And still I don't know what I was thinking, because
I was still in contact with Simon and he just
dropped me off. So he started calling me and I
send it over. I sent over the article and I said,
what's this because I just read it on Instagram. And
(37:22):
then first he started to scream at me, like how
did you get this? And I was just it just
popped up on my Instagram. And then he said, no,
it's not true. My enemies are paying these girls. And
then I started to realize immediately that his enemies were
the girls and the people who he defrauded. And that's
(37:48):
when the ball started rolling and I started to contacting
people under a false identity to see because yes, he
made me scared of my life as well. He knew
where I live, you know where my parents lived, he
knew where I worked, So in a way, I was
still scared of my life, but I needed to have
(38:09):
like some sort of truth and more proof that he
was a fraud. So I started to contact people, and
after I knew, I went to the police, and then
the police said, we cannot do anything for you right now.
And I was in a very difficult situation because I
lost so much money. So here's a chance to go
(38:33):
deep on gaslighting. The most sure fire way to break
through gas lighting is when other people see what we
see or experience what we experience. Even in the classical
film Gaslight, what saves her is one other person seeing
what she is going through and helping her feel less insane.
(38:56):
Once II Leen was able to start putting the puzzle
pieces to other and recognized that she wasn't alone, she
was able to take action and save herself. People in
narcissistic relationships can easily become isolated and stuck in the
narcissists version of reality, and that can be dangerous. So
(39:18):
I made him a suggestion, and I said, well, I
don't have any more money anymore, but maybe you can
give me your clothes, because I knew every time when
I was with him, he was wearing the newest collections
of all the big brands like Gucci for such a cabana,
and every time it was like the latest collection, and
(39:41):
I couldn't figure it out why that was. But then
I understood that all of these things he bought with
my money. It's exactly right, it's yours. Yeah, so yeah,
it was mine. Everything what he was wearing was from me.
I suggested him to get the clothes to me because
(40:02):
he was still in hiding and he wanted to be undetected.
So then I said, I can sell your clothes for you,
and that's what I did. Good for you. Well I
didn't sell it for him, right, Well, you got the money.
Now I want to come back to how you kept
getting revenge on him. But before I get to that,
when Eileen, did you start identifying Simon's patterns as narcissistic?
(40:27):
How long did it take you to get there? I
think when I really actually saw a pattern was when
I had the clothes in my house and I didn't
send him the money. That was the moment when I
saw the back and forth between his personalities. That's so
(40:50):
interesting because you know what's fascinating, and again, such a
classical part of these stories is people say, Dr Vinie,
tell me how I could identify a narcissist right away,
and I'll say, oh, it's gonna take a minute for you.
It took almost the entire course of the relationship. Then
when it was clear, it was clear and you couldn't
unsee it. But it takes a minute, right, if somebody's
being charming and interested and interesting and nice and and
(41:15):
all of these things, you're not sort of going through
head saying well, let me look for the narcissistic pattern,
just saying I'm in front of a nice person. And
despite even the back and forth and the money and
the confusion, it was only then when you had the
clothes and you really saw it very quickly, how he
flipped between the good Simon bad Simon good Simon bad Simon,
that it became clear. And I think it's important for
(41:36):
people to know that sometimes the stuff, even with somebody
who is as big as a scammer and a manipulator
as he is, it took a minute to figure that out.
And a lot of people say, why didn't I see
it sooner? Why didn't I see it sooner? And they
get angry at themselves because it takes a minute, Just
so people could be kinder to themselves. It's important to
know that when I found out that he was a fraud,
(41:58):
I think it took me like one and a half
week to actually land and know that the fraud was real.
But to see the patterns of his narcissistic personalities that
took me a bit longer. Yeah. You know what's interesting, though, Eileen,
is that you did get some justice. You know, even
though he only did five months of a longer sentence,
(42:20):
there was some justice, right. Most people who go through
narcissistic relationships get no justice, right. The person just goes it,
gets to go off and go off into the sunset.
And really that's actually everybody who ever came before you
in Simon's life had that experience of no justice. I
think we could maybe make an argument that this is
maybe a half justice, right because you're still carrying the
(42:42):
wounds and the pain of having gone through that kind
of manipulation and psychological abuse. Yes, absolutely, I will never
get the justice for the mental part. The only thing
that I can do is make the best out of
it and be as strong as I am and just
move forward and just move along as well, and to
(43:03):
get over it. I think what's amazing is that you
know you shared your own trauma history. How he pretty
much used that trauma history against you to draw more
money out of you two because he created such a
sense of fear. That's why I really want to speak up,
because I know that a lot of women but also
men of course, in this type of situations, in this
(43:26):
type of relationships, if they don't see a way out,
it can be so much worse because there are a
lot of people who don't want to speak up, don't
want to tell their friends, or don't want to tell
their family. When you are in this type of situations,
a lot of people will isolate themselves because of the shame,
because of the hurt as well, and the moment you
(43:49):
get isolated, it will only get worse because then you
are still alone with your thoughts. No one is around
you to help you, to support, to be there for you.
And that's why I really want to speak up, because
I think that it's important to tell get like maybe
one or two people in your friends or maybe family,
(44:13):
where you are going to tell your story, because without
any people around you, you you cannot survive. Narcissistic abuse thrives
in isolation. Many survivors become isolated by shame, fear, and
by the narcissist themselves. Hearing these stories and sharing these
(44:34):
stories is the only way for survivors to break through
this shame and recognize that talking about it is a
key to surviving these relationships. Did you ever ask your
family or friends for help. Yes, the moment when I
found out, I immediately talk to my mother and I
(44:55):
went to see some of my friends, a few of them,
and I told them my story, and from that moment
on they were so supportive because I was isolating myself.
I didn't go out for dinner because I didn't have
any money. I didn't go to birthday parties because I
couldn't afford a gift. I didn't do that already for
(45:16):
more than a year because I couldn't afford it. Yeah,
So I also had the feeling that I had to
tell them because I didn't want to lie to them anymore,
because it felt like a lie every time I needed
to make up excuses for not going somewhere, And that
heard me the most, because I was lying to the
people who do love me. It's like you feel like
(45:38):
you're being punished twice. Not only did you go through
the relationship, but now you don't even feel you can
be open and honest with the people you care about.
So I think it's incredibly important to push back through
that shame. You didn't do anything wrong. We will be
right back with this conversation with Eileen. You know again
(46:05):
I lean your story. It played out throughout the world.
The world had so many reactions to it. As me,
as a person who studies narcissistic abuse, who works with
survivors of it, I see it as stories of narcissistic
abuse aren't as simple as we like. You came from
a very happy family. You simply believed in love. Somebody
took advantage not only your empathy but your trauma. However,
(46:29):
so many times we think of survivors of narcissistic abuse
is very passive, and you showed how actually active and
how much of a agent in your own destiny that
you really really were to this day and in your
own healing. So what's next for you? It's so important
for people to hear that no matter how bad a
(46:50):
story someone goes through, there's something to be learned and
there's often something to be paid forward to other people.
I am talking to publishers right now to write a
book because I really think that my experience again can
help people absolutely get out. And then I thought okay,
(47:11):
and what do I want to do more? Because I
cannot sit still? And then I thought, what do I
really like? And that's drinking wine? Okay, okay, And so
you're building a business around that. Yes, I'm starting to
create my own wine brands. Oh great. I hope it
(47:32):
has the words of survivor or fighter or something like
that in there, because I have to say so many times.
As a person comes through a survivorship story and recognizes
that they came out the other side, that's when you
realize it's time for me to start enacting my dreams.
Because if I could come through that and still retain
my sense of who I am, then the sky is
(47:53):
the limit. And I have no doubt love will come
flowing into your life because I think for many people,
once they get themselves to such a good a place
in themselves and wiser from going through one of these relationships,
you're actually in a magnificent position to welcome healthy love
into your life, but also be able to call those
red flags out early and say, yeah, no, you might
(48:15):
have been nice to me, but you yelled at me,
and yelling at me, it's just not gonna work. By yes, absolutely,
I already experienced it in the past three years because yes,
I am dating, but now if it doesn't feel good,
I'm just The first thing I would say is by
good for you. Yeah, and unfortunately I had to go
through this to see it now. But what doesn't kill
(48:38):
you makes you stronger. Correct. My hope is that people
will see your story, and for some people, they'll see
your story and that will be enough to stop them
from actually feeling that they have to give in the
first place, and say, oh, actually, I can set a
boundary because now it's very clear to me that even
with someone incredibly wise and smart like yourself, that this
can happen. So I think that's where these stories become
really important to share. Yes, absolutely, And also the word
(49:02):
just came out, but the CEO, the real CEO of
LD Diamonds, Check Levav, the daughter of Lef Levif. She
has reached out to us after the documentary came out
and we started up a collaboration together and we're going
to release a bracelets. Yes, there are two small rings
(49:24):
coming together, and the bracelet is called Stronger Together because
as the group we are Stronger Together. I love there
are two small diamonds in it as well. I love
that idea stronger together and get some diamonds in there
to sort of stick it to the diamond king and
the King of diamonds, because really, you're the Queen of diamonds,
my dear. What's so striking to me about how ei
(49:48):
Leaned story was told was that it actually ended up
with the world trying to find ways to demonize her
and the other women who are harmed by Simon. People
were characterizing them as gold girls, are foolish or naive.
This was a big public story, but the kinds of
things that happened to Eileen happened to people in narcissistic
(50:08):
relationships all the time. People say to them things like
didn't you see this coming? Or why didn't you just leave?
Or there's two sides to every story. When we invalidate
the survivors of these stories, we give the narcissists a
free pass, and then it emboldens other toxic people and
leaves the people harmed by these relationships less likely to
(50:32):
seek out help or talk about what happened. We have
to stop glorifying the narcissists. I know that everyone might
like to think that they would be too smart to
fall for a grifter like Simon. But I have to
tell you, while most of the people I work with
won't get their stories on TV, all narcissistic relationships are
(50:53):
a hustle and if you think you aren't vulnerable, then
you may be the most vulnerable one of all. Be careful.
That was a great conversation with Eileen, and here's some
takeaways based on the many things that we talked about. First,
narcissistic and toxic people really do use urgency and time
(51:15):
to force you to make uncomfortable choices, and if you hesitate,
they frame it as you not caring or being committed,
just like when someone is trying to sell you something
or make a bad deal in a rush. When there
is this sense of urgency that should be assigned to
slow down, and if they decide to leave the relationship,
(51:36):
then it was probably a hustle. The best prevention and
survival tool and gas lighted and narcissistic relationships is to
avoid getting isolated. That can be hard to do, but
cultivate friendships and other close relationships so you have another
glimpse into reality. As Eileen said, without any people around you,
(52:00):
you cannot survive. As our third takeaway today, I got
to remember that narcissistic relationships really are a process of indoctrination.
There are enough good days and things that make sense
in the relationship that we keep getting pulled in. Listen,
nobody asks you for money on your first date. It
(52:21):
takes a minute to identify these patterns, and that's why
it's so important in any relationship that you take your
time journal any red flags that you observe, and the
first time the relationship really feels uncomfortable, wait a minute
and talk it out with people that you trust. Thank
(52:44):
you so much for listening. Lastly, make sure you subscribe
on I Heart Radio and please rate this podcast on
Apple Podcasts. This show was produced by executive producers Jada
Pinkett Smith Fallon, Jethro Ellen Rakaton, and Dr rominey der Vassila,
(53:05):
Also producer Matthew Jones, Associate producer Maura Della Rosa, and
our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnahy and Calvin Bailiff.
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This
(00:24):
episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people.
The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the
podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do
not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I
Heart Media, or their employees. The worst part is that
(00:48):
he can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, correct,
but he cannot be guilty for the mental part he did,
and that's even way worse than the money he took.
In this episode, we are going to hear the story
of Eileen Charlotte, who knew that swiping right could cause
(01:08):
such a world of hurt. Now, lots of people have
had bad match stories on Tinder, but this is a
whole different level. The Tinder swindler managed to steal millions
of dollars from multiple women from around the world, most
of whom fell for his charm, charisma, love bombing, false promises,
(01:30):
and ultimately his scam. Eileen Charlotte was one of the
women who got caught up in the twisted story of
Simon the Tinder Swindler. Simon posted a lavish lifestyle and
Instagram and Tinder a well traveled, attractive, and fun loving guy,
and he matched with Eileen. In the months to follow,
(01:53):
Eileen found herself falling in love with Simon. They moved
in and planned a future together. At the same time, though,
he kept pressuring her for money, claiming that he was
in danger because of his business and had to hide
from people who were coming after him. Eileen ended up
loaning him over one hundred and forty thousand dollars, which
(02:16):
he had promised to pay back, and she almost lost
her home. He left her feeling that her own life
and her family's lives were at risk. Eileen's story is
the cautionary tale of a fairy tale gone dark. Her
story is no different than that of many young women.
Like so many others, she's ambitious with a zest for life,
(02:39):
and she was just simply looking for love. The Netflix
documentary The Tinder Swindler made waves around the world and
changed Eileen's life overnight. The Tinder Swindler is not just
a story of an online scammer. It's a story about narcissism.
(03:00):
This story teaches us that when you combine the manipulative
ingredients of narcissism with the hope of a love story,
you end up with a broken heart and an empty
bank account. Eileen is here to tell this story and
how she, in her fashion, triumphed in the end. We
(03:21):
are going to break down love bombing and the overall
architecture of the narcissistic relationship, as well as her path
of healing from not just the financial debt, but the
emotional debt. Instead of glorifying the grifter, this is the
story of the survivor. So welcome, Aileen. It's so nice
(03:48):
to have you. Thank you so much, and thank you
so much for having me as well. Of course, Eileen,
so could you break down for us, aside from the
sort of surface level things, what attracted you to him
and led you to fall in love. Now, he was
very interested in me on a personal level, what I
(04:10):
was doing, my friends, my family, the way I lived,
and it immediately created a bond because he had a
different lifestyle. But still we we had a great connection
because he was still like a down to earth guy
who was also looking for love, and that's what made
me really attracted to him. That is such an important
(04:32):
thing to note when it came down to it. What
I'm hearing is that it was really that he was
deeply interested in you. We all know that charm and
charisma and confidence can often attract us to someone, but
we can't underestimate curiosity. Simon was interested in Eileen's life
(04:54):
and wanted to learn about her. Charisma maybe dazzling, but
intense curiosity can be seductive in a way that leaves
a person not even thinking about red flags. I was
traveling a lot for work, and he always came to
visit me. For example, when I was in Barcelona for
work trip, or when I was in London for a
(05:16):
work trip, he came to visit me, which is also
very special because someone is just flying over the earth
because he's so busy and still he made some time
for me to see me and to meet me. So
that also made me feel and made me fall in
love with him, because yeah, it really felt that he
(05:38):
was interested in me and not my looks or I
don't know, so I'm sure it was all of them, right,
you know, it was all of that he was interested
in you. But coming back to that point, though, the
way the story has been told is that it was
all very flashy and exciting, but what he was bringing
to the table really was that he was interested in you,
and you were interested in him, and he was very attentive.
(06:00):
And I think that we underestimate how important that is.
No matter what a person brings the table, gifts, experiences, whatever,
it's that really focused attention interest that somebody has in
us that's really really appealing. So that's a universal theme, right, yes, yes,
of course, And it doesn't matter where you are with
(06:22):
a person, because for example, I also had a small
dinner in a small Italian restaurant and we were just
eating pizza, so it wasn't all fleshy like it's been
described in the documentary as well. Now, can you tell
us about how it was when the two of you
moved in together. It was really nice in the beginning.
We had a lot of fun and I could finally
(06:43):
like really be together with him. And because sometimes when
you're traveling a lot, he was over there, I was
over there, so sometimes it was really difficult to see
each other, but now he was actually there all the time,
And did you find yourself growing closer to him at
this time or were there any issues that came up.
He build up the story about his enemies and that
(07:07):
he got attacked, like we are also seen in the
movie that he and his bodyguard were attacked, and he
created this story about the enemies who wanted him dead,
and he needed to live a little bit undetected. So
that's why he moved in with me, because yeah, everything
was under my name and nothing was under his name.
(07:30):
He was also starting to use my money, so yeah,
those were the difficulties I needed to face. But he
made his company sent me a check to cover all
the money he um he was using from me, So
I thought everything was fine. Yeah, of course, of course
you did, right. I mean, that's why wouldn't you write
(07:51):
it's right there, it's right there in black and white,
there's a check. And we talked about these red flags
as though they are so obvious, like these big neon
signs that anyone can see in retrospect. The idea that
he had these enemies out for him feels outlandish. And
her covering and paying the bills, the suspicious, but narcissistic
(08:15):
people are so skilled at taking bizarre and shady stuff
and putting it together into what feels like a plausible narrative.
And Eileen cared about him, So whenever we care about someone,
we make the pieces fit. So let's go back and
talk a little bit about love bombing, right, because in
(08:36):
this kind of a relationship, we see it every single time,
and love bombing is a sort of really intense at
times even overwhelming, early phase of the relationship. Now it
can look different in different kinds of relationships, right, but
it basically is the early part of the relationship is
characterized by something that almost feels like a fairy tale
(08:58):
or a fantasy. It's that intense, it's that overwhelming. When
you look back on this relationship with Simon, what parts
or what experiences would you identify as the love bombing
in the beginning, because he started to ask money from
me after almost seven months, But he was so generous
(09:20):
in the months before. He was so open, and he
called me up every day, and also every time when
I made a transaction to him, he was so sweet.
If I got the money, and he was bombing me
and bombing me and bombing me with love and I
want to marry you, I want to have kids with you,
(09:41):
I want to be with you, I want to grow
old with you. But at some point when I, for example,
didn't get the money or confronted him with like, what
are you doing? I'm sending you all this money and
it's never enough for you, then he always got angry
and mad. So as a woman in a relationship, you
always want to go back to the part when it
(10:05):
was nice. So you really hope to get the feeling
again of the love you had. Okay, so there's a
lot we can unpack here. When a narcissistic person feels
satisfied or safe in a relationship, they promised the sun
and moon to a partner. They make future faked promises,
(10:28):
things that they say will happen, but they never will. However,
when the narcissistic person is tense or their needs aren't
being met, that's when you see the rage and the manipulation.
If you don't know what you are dealing with, this
can be really confusing. How long would you say that
that love bombing period lasted with Simon? I think it
(10:51):
was the whole period of me having a relationship with him.
It's difficult to describe because in the beginning everything was
good and he stayed sweet all the time because he
needed something from me. It's interesting what you're describing here, Eileen,
because when we think of it from this sort of
framework of the more sort of toxic or narcissistic relationship.
(11:13):
I'm so glad you brought this up, because we often
think of these a separate phases. There's love bombing and
then things go wrong. But what was happening for you
is something that happens a lot. Is the two are interlinked,
and he had an agenda, right he wanted something from you.
In this particular case, it was money. In another relationship
it could be something else, but in this case it
was money. So when he saw that all of his
(11:35):
sort of charming, attentive behavior got him what he wanted.
It got him the money he wanted to keep his
scheme going. Then he would almost relax, and in that
relaxing he would become very very sweet. I want to
marry you, I want to grow old with you, all
these things that are very very seductive to hear. But
any moment that you would have pushback. Why do you
(11:57):
need it so fast? Or why do you even need
this much? Immediately you would see anger. So it's such
an interesting way that this happened, Eileen, because you had
both the love bobbing and the devaluing phases happening at
the same time, and you were pulled back to wanting.
That sort of idealized deductive time was almost there all
(12:18):
the time, Like it was two masks. He was, in
essence wearing two masks, the aggressive, angry, you know, sort
of rageful mask when he didn't get what he wanted,
and this really seductive, loving, attentive mask when he got
what he wanted. And that was the back and forth.
How long until you connected that? Did you ever connect that? Oh,
when I give him the money, he's a really nice guy.
When I don't give him money, he becomes really aggressive.
(12:38):
How long did it take you to figure that out?
I think after a few months of giving him money
and made several transactions to him, I found out that
every time when I didn't gave him money, he got angry,
and he always put the blame on me, and that's why.
(13:00):
And I started to realize that it wasn't actually okay
because in a relationship there are two people and if
you like someone, you don't want to make them feel bad,
and he made every time when I, for example, couldn't
send him the money or didn't send him the money,
(13:20):
he really made me feel bad that it was my
fault that everything would be blown up. Interesting. Blame shifting
is one of the most common narcissistic patterns. Narcissistic people
cannot take responsibility, will not take responsibility, and anything that
goes wrong is blamed on other people. Their grandiosity and
(13:44):
their need to be all powerful means they cannot take
ownership of mistakes because then that means they aren't all that.
Blame shifting is a way for them to maintain their
grandiose facade. And then I started to realize that there
was something wrong. I can't imagine this happening, given how
strong and resolute even I'm noticing you to be in
(14:06):
this conversation. Was there ever a moment you ever thought like, Okay,
if I keep giving him the money, then this relationship
is going to run well or as soon as you
recognize what was going on, you said no, I don't
want to do this anymore. Yes, because it's not fun,
because he really makes you live in fear with his
enemies and people who are hunting him, so he really
(14:28):
makes you live in fear, and at a certain point,
losing all the money and living in fear, I knew
that I didn't want it anymore because this is not
the love I prefer, right, I mean, love and fear
actually are not good flavors together. It doesn't it doesn't
feel good to a greater or lesser degree. All narcissistic
(14:53):
relationships are about fear, and the person in the narcissistic
relationship list in a constant cycle of trying to please
them and never anger them. It can be an actual
fear of their rage, or it can be a fear
of having to really accept what this relationship is, so
people just keep trying to please them until they can't. Eileen,
(15:17):
how did he sell that story to you so that
when he asked you for money it didn't seem alarming.
He always had projects which he was calling and referring
to as operations, and there was always a new operation
to support in a way which he needed money for,
(15:40):
or he needed money for flight tickets and hotels and traveling.
So those kind of things I mostly sponsored in a way.
When he would ask for the money, would you be
able to say, can I have a little bit of
time to think about this? Now, that's the problem with
these type of rodsters. They don't make you think rationally.
(16:03):
For example, if I would ask my friend for money,
I can always say to her or him like, I
will give you two or three weeks to think about
if it's okay or if it's not okay, just think
about it. But with him, he would rather like to
have it yesterday, then tomorrow, and then he's bombing you
and he's calling you all the time constantly and constantly
(16:26):
to push you so far that you don't even got
the time to think about anything, just to think rationally.
And that's the biggest problem with this type of frauds.
That you're in a state of mind and you want
to help someone, but if they are really in need
(16:47):
and they are shouting at you that they are in
a very dangerous situation, yes, of course you're going to
arrange the money. What I'm hearing from you is that
that sense of urgency and danger. If I don't get
this money, he's telling you something terrible it's going to happen. Right,
So you feel this empathy, but you also have this
awareness this is a lot of money. But how do
(17:07):
you think all of that, that sense of this is dangerous,
this has to happen quickly, or something terrible is going
to happen. How do you think that blocked you from
seeing the red flags, seeing the deception. Everything went so
fast I cannot even call it a roller coaster, but
I think I was in twenty five roller coasters at
(17:28):
that moment. Yes, every time there's a different story, every
time there's a different operation, every time he's in need,
there is something happened, a death threat, something which can
maybe even affect me or my family. And with these
type of things, you really feel sorry for someone, but
you also want to protect yourself as well. In a way,
(17:50):
it seems like part of how he was sort of
selling the story was he had images showing sort of
past episodes of things that look like danger and violence.
The story was somewhat believable, but then he really used
that idea of time urgency to pressure you. It reminds
me of people who are thinking of making a major purchase,
and the salesperson is pressure. If you don't buy it now,
(18:10):
you're never going to get it. If you don't buy now,
the price is going to go away in half an hour,
and that's not exactly the conditions under which to make
a great decision. But it's not like you were trying
to buy a car. You are in a relationship with
somebody and being intensely pressured. When you would call him
out on that intensity, saying you've got to slow down,
or this is too quick, or I need to think
about this, what would happen? Then he got angry. You
(18:34):
are ruling this. You are the one who is blowing
everything up because I need the money now. I cannot
wait because then this will happen where this will happen,
or I will die, or I will lose everything, or
you will lose me, or I'm going to kill myself.
And that one was like the worst of course, because
(18:57):
you love someone right here, this is a great example
of the escalated manipulation a narcissistic person will use in
a relationship to get what they need or get what
they feel entitled to. Each time you may try to
set a boundary, they keep leveling up the terrible things
(19:19):
that will happen if you don't give in to them.
It became very manipulative, right, so you are being reasonable
you're asking something reasonable. I need a minute. I need
to think about this. This is a lot of money.
And the manipulation was it sounded like he almost doubted
your commitment to the relationship. Oh, you must not care
very much about me if you have to think about
it and I'm about to die. I think it's so
(19:40):
easy for people to look at the story from the
outside and said I would have just said no. But
if you care about someone and you truly believe this
much harm is going to come, or they even say
they're going to harm themselves, and your commitment is being doubted,
you're so confused at that point to show your commitment
you then end up doing the thing that you're uncomfortable with.
So in essence, he's playing with this idea of consent.
(20:03):
You really weren't consenting to give the money. You were
being coerced to give the money. And I think there's
a there's absolutely, Eileen, that's a really classical example of gaslighting.
You know, people don't understand gaslighting. We always say it's like, oh,
that never happened. We keep it simple. But what he
was doing was he was testing your commitment, and while
in your heart you were clearly committed. He was using
(20:26):
that as a way to manipulate you. Yes, Oh, if
you're really cared about me, then you'd give me the money. Then,
if you really wanted this relationship, you'd give me the
money then, and you know I'm going to pay you back.
And since he had a track record in the history
of paying you back from time to time, it was believable. Yes, correct, Yeah,
because he did pay me back sometimes. And also people
(20:48):
don't understand because I think I did maybe over twenty
five transactions to him, and yes, he did pay me
back sometimes, so you always have the feeling that it
will be okay, there's no doubt because he already paid
me back a few of those times. So it feels
like love bombing for him. And this is the case
(21:09):
with any kind of you know, con man, is that
it's an indoctrination period, like a grooming period, where they
determine is this going to be a a useful person
to me? Can I get what I want from this person?
That's what he was in probably the first few times
he'd ask you for money to see if you'd say yes,
he'd pay you back, because for him, that was him
(21:31):
testing the waters and then once he could see that
I'm able to sell her the idea that, oh, if
you care for me, you give me the money, then
he knew he had you and then held keep that
game going. And that that's every person who's like him
narcissistic in that way. They will always take advantage and
weaponize the other person's empathy. It's the most classical dynamic.
(21:53):
Once they see empathy, they don't see this, Oh, this
is lovely, this is loving, how fortunate I am? They say,
ah ha ha he. Here's a point. It's almost like
a little crack in a window. Here's where I can
break into this house and steal their things. It has
that feel to it. Yes, yes, and I think with
narcissistic people they only care about themselves because, for example,
(22:14):
at the end of everything, I was in such a
bad place. I was in debt, I lost a lot
of my money, I almost lost my house. But even
his problems were worse than mine. Of course, that ability
for the narcissistic person to play the victim is a
very classical element of that personality style. Yes, their problems
(22:36):
are always the worst problems, always, and it's never them,
it's always you know, it's always someone else's fault. There's
no capacity for taking that kind of responsibility. And it's
interesting because you said with someone narcissistic like him, it's
always about them, because beyond that here, for persons that's selfish,
it's always about them. That's unpleasant enough. But then in
(22:57):
the process of everything being about them, they feel they
need to destroy other people because there's absolutely no awareness
that what they're doing is harming the other people. There's
literally it's actually quite unsettling to recognize that somebody was
that unaware of the toll that they were taking on you,
of the harm they were putting on you. Yeah, absolutely,
(23:18):
because for example you you can see it as well
in the documentary, like in the end where I already
knew that I got defrauded and I just wanted to
play a bit with him. It was a bit of
my revenge. You could see that I almost lost my
house and I lost already over one forty now it's
(23:39):
up more but a lot of money. And he felt
bad for himself because he needed to sleep in a hostel.
So in a way, he's always like and he's always
putting it on me, and that was my fault, that
was my mistake because I didn't send him any more money,
and and that's how it's always always framed. I want
(24:01):
to go back to something we're talking about, this idea
of how he used fear to motivate you to give
him money. Something bad is going to happen to him,
or he would do something bad to himself, or even
something bad could happen to you or your family. Right,
So he really really used fear. When somebody uses fear
the way he did, right, Not only did you love
(24:21):
him and care about him, so obviously you didn't want
anything bad to happen to him. But as you would say,
I need a moment, I need to think on this.
He yell let you and scream at you. The thing
I want to understand is, did you ever have a moment, Eileen,
where you thought, I'm not sure you know if this
is the right thing to give him the money. But
if I'm wrong and something terrible happens to him, I'll
(24:44):
feel bad for the rest of my life. Yes, of course,
because if someone is using enemies and life threats as
a weapon, and you actually see, like from the movie
as well, the pictures that he's sending you that he
got attacked, So in a way it's getting real. Yeah,
(25:04):
of course, yeah, yeah, the situation was real, and that's
how he pretended to be. But so you also know
deep down that if something would happen to him, that
you can never regret yourself. Narcissistic relationships are like a
(25:27):
series of bets you make. If I do that, then
they do that, and then I will stay. The relationship
is a series of perpetual tests and deals with the devil.
I wondered, Eileen, as I've learned about your story as
I'm talking to you, is that there's this strange point
you hit where having to live in fear that maybe
(25:49):
you did the wrong thing would actually be worse than
losing the money. Yes, absolutely, because in a way you
can always say like, oh, it's just money, but if
his life is on the line, then it's a human being,
it's a life. And that's where his manipulation was so powerful, right,
(26:09):
because you really had to sit with that possibility of regret.
Nobody likes that. That's a real huge fear for people,
is regret, what if I do the wrong thing? And
as you said, it's in the grand scheme of things,
especially when you love somebody it's only money, and if
this stops him from getting hurt, he really had you
convinced that as long as you give me this money,
(26:31):
I can be protected, and so you wouldn't have to
live again with that regret. So that was a deeply,
deeply manipulative thing for him to do. It was obviously
a sort of a technique he had used with many people,
and he saw that it work. He took advantage of
the empathy, he took advantage of the love. He'd know
that nobody wants to be responsible for harm or death
(26:54):
of another person. He'd use that to extract the money
from a person, and then when it things to happen
fast enough, he'd start yelling and screaming, knowing that that
kind of rage is also frightening for people. Yes, yes, absolutely,
my session with Eileen will continue after this break. So
(27:22):
let's talk about something called trauma bonding. It's how a
person gets stuck in a really toxic relationship cycle. A
central issue in the trauma bonded relationship is that a
person is in a relationship that keeps going from great
too bad, too great, too bad, arguing too happy, arguing
to great day and that back and forth is what
(27:45):
keeps a person stuck because they keep waiting for the
next good day, and even when there's five bad days,
six bad days, there's enough good days to say, well,
I'm really going to hold up for the good day now.
It's almost you know when you go to a casino
and you play that machine, you pull the handle, you
put in the money, and you know, sometimes you get
the money prize. It's like that because and even if
(28:06):
ten times you put in the money nothing comes out,
then you think, Okay, maybe this time I'm gonna get
so much money, maybe there's gonna be a good day.
I think it's just so important to reflect on that
trauma bonded idea. So what we're seeing here, because this
pattern between Eileen and Simon was both trauma bonded but
also kind of quite simple, it makes it even more difficult.
(28:30):
If he got the money when and how he wanted it,
they had a great day. He told her he loved her,
he made big promises. If he didn't get the money,
it was all anger and rage and threats. That back
and force. That promise of a good day is what
keeps people stuck in toxic relationships, just for a brief moment.
(28:54):
I mean, what was your when you were growing up
in childhood? What was your family life like? What was
your parents marriage? Like? My parents marriage was really great.
They grew up in a very loving family. I child
and my parents are already together for over fifty years. Now, wow, wow,
(29:15):
that's okay. So now you just throw me a curveball, girl,
and I'll tell you why. This is why your story
is so amazing, Hili. I mean, I think I think
the story has sort of been mistold, like for oh,
she gave her money away. But there's so much power
to your story because here you were, you grew up.
You kind of defy the stereotype. Right, we always think, oh,
the person who's gonna fall for someone like Simon is
(29:37):
going to have a terrible childhood. Their parents had a
terrible marriage and they had a terrible father, so they
go with this bad guy. You're saying, that's not it
at all, right, your parents had a loving marriage, for
that's lasted a long time because it's a loving marriage.
You felt loved as a child, so you actually believed
in love and ran and I So the trauma boding
(30:01):
for you was interesting because we often think of it
as historical in a person's life. They had this sort
of difficult relationship with their parents, so they reproduce, recreate
that relationship in adulthood. That wasn't your story, not yours.
Was you believed in love? Yes? And I was looking
for love as well, and I'm still looking for love
and I don't think that's a bad thing. But what
(30:24):
is not really told well in the documentary is eight
years ago now, I um, I was in a very
terrible accident. I got robbed by two guys and beaten
up very bad. So sorry, yeah, And I got PTSD
(30:45):
from that. And the worst thing of the situation with
Simon is that he triggered back the pts D because
he knew about it. He knew that I was scared
to be followed, he knew that I was scared to
be alone in the streets at night, and he used
(31:08):
that to trigger back the PTSD. And in a way,
because the PTSD got back, he put me in a
sort of state of mind which it's not you because,
for example, if I look back on all the wstep
messages right now, three years, four years later, I feel
(31:31):
so stupid. But back then I was in a state
of mind which it wasn't me, And especially because he
brought back to PTSD. For example, he knew that I
was scared to be followed, and every time when I
saw someone behind me, I was always a bit nervous
(31:51):
when someone was behind me very close. And at a
certain point, he was living at my house and we
were driving home and we came into the street of
my house and he said, please check every car, please check,
Please drive three rounds through the street to check if
we're not followed. And with those type of things, he
(32:13):
brought back the PTSD. And I think that's the worst
thing he did to me. First of all, I'm so sorry,
Thank you, thank you for sharing that story, because you
you bring up something so important here, Eileen, which is
you had had this, this this history of trauma, right,
and that this kind of a toxic relationship, narcissistic relationship
(32:35):
can actually reactivate all of that. So, like you may
have worked through that trauma. But trauma is a funny thing.
It sits in our bodies, it sits in our minds.
It's still and they can be reactivated. Right. It's always
its all and in some ways it always is going
to be there. But as you get away from this
kind of a toxic experience, you might feel like you
have more tools to cope with it. So eileens talking
(32:57):
about trauma here, and I want to go deeper into this.
Post traumatic discomfort can be activated when we experience anything
that was similar to earlier and past traumas we've experienced.
In Eileen's case, being followed or being reminded of being
followed really brought up those old traumatic experiences for her.
(33:21):
When that traumatic experience is triggered, any of us would
feel anxious, on edge, and even panicky. And the horror
of severe narcissistic relationships is that they have no problem
using your own trauma as a tool of manipulation to
get what they want. When somebody is invalidating you and
(33:45):
manipulating you, and more than anything, leaving you feeling scared,
all of that is going to come back in a flood.
If you talk to any trauma survivor that could have
happened to them twenty years ago, they could be having
an experience now and saying I'm feeling all of this
famili or your stuff, like I don't even feel like
I'm myself now. What's so awful and terrible to hear
(34:06):
about in your story, is that not only did he
weaponize your empathy, You're a loving person, You cared about him,
you didn't want him to suffer, You gave him your money.
The part to me that's beyond unforgivable is that he
weaponized your own history of trauma. And that, to me,
is such a horrible thing to do to a person
(34:29):
because it really becomes such a place you know you
can control them. And this goes back to this, we
don't have to think about love bombing in a different way.
As he got to know you and learned about you
and was so interested in you, that's how he learned
about your history. And learning those things about your history,
he thought, ah, I can actually get a response, I
(34:51):
can get what I want if I bring up this
part of her past. And he used that to throw
you off balance and make you more min pelatable. Interestingly, Eileen,
that's not a crime. But in the psychological court I
live in, you better believe that feels like a crime
to me, Yes, absolutely, And the worst part is that
(35:11):
it can only be guilty for stealing the money from me, correct,
But he cannot be guilty for the mental part he
did and that's even way worse than the money you took.
(35:31):
So in this next session, I lean we're going to
talk a little bit about how you found him out, basically,
how you figured it out. So tell us because this
is I mean, like I said, you are. You are
a rock star in my eyes. I will tell you.
I watched it. I was like, Oh, this girl has
got it going on. You are more courageous than I.
And I say that with the utmost of respect. Clever, courageous,
(35:53):
and I really want you to share with us about
how you found out about who he really was and
how that led you to put all of the pieces
together as well. Thank you so much for the compliment,
because it's the best thing that I can hear from
my action. I was at the airport and Prague where
(36:15):
I was actually with him, and he just dropped me
off at the airport and I opened up my Instagram
and I saw his face coming up on my feet
and I clicked on it, and there I saw this
whole article from a Norwegian newspaper with two girls in it,
better known as Nila and Cecily, and they were talking
(36:40):
about Simon and his actions, what he did to them.
He defrauded them for a lot of money, and while
I was reading the article, I immediately knew because everything
was so similar to my story. I immediately knew that
(37:02):
the story was the girls put out there was true.
And still I don't know what I was thinking, because
I was still in contact with Simon and he just
dropped me off. So he started calling me and I
send it over. I sent over the article and I said,
what's this because I just read it on Instagram. And
(37:22):
then first he started to scream at me, like how
did you get this? And I was just it just
popped up on my Instagram. And then he said, no,
it's not true. My enemies are paying these girls. And
then I started to realize immediately that his enemies were
the girls and the people who he defrauded. And that's
(37:48):
when the ball started rolling and I started to contacting
people under a false identity to see because yes, he
made me scared of my life as well. He knew
where I live, you know where my parents lived, he
knew where I worked, So in a way, I was
still scared of my life, but I needed to have
(38:09):
like some sort of truth and more proof that he
was a fraud. So I started to contact people, and
after I knew, I went to the police, and then
the police said, we cannot do anything for you right now.
And I was in a very difficult situation because I
lost so much money. So here's a chance to go
(38:33):
deep on gaslighting. The most sure fire way to break
through gas lighting is when other people see what we
see or experience what we experience. Even in the classical
film Gaslight, what saves her is one other person seeing
what she is going through and helping her feel less insane.
(38:56):
Once II Leen was able to start putting the puzzle
pieces to other and recognized that she wasn't alone, she
was able to take action and save herself. People in
narcissistic relationships can easily become isolated and stuck in the
narcissists version of reality, and that can be dangerous. So
(39:18):
I made him a suggestion, and I said, well, I
don't have any more money anymore, but maybe you can
give me your clothes, because I knew every time when
I was with him, he was wearing the newest collections
of all the big brands like Gucci for such a cabana,
and every time it was like the latest collection, and
(39:41):
I couldn't figure it out why that was. But then
I understood that all of these things he bought with
my money. It's exactly right, it's yours. Yeah, so yeah,
it was mine. Everything what he was wearing was from me.
I suggested him to get the clothes to me because
(40:02):
he was still in hiding and he wanted to be undetected.
So then I said, I can sell your clothes for you,
and that's what I did. Good for you. Well I
didn't sell it for him, right, Well, you got the money.
Now I want to come back to how you kept
getting revenge on him. But before I get to that,
when Eileen, did you start identifying Simon's patterns as narcissistic?
(40:27):
How long did it take you to get there? I
think when I really actually saw a pattern was when
I had the clothes in my house and I didn't
send him the money. That was the moment when I
saw the back and forth between his personalities. That's so
(40:50):
interesting because you know what's fascinating, and again, such a
classical part of these stories is people say, Dr Vinie,
tell me how I could identify a narcissist right away,
and I'll say, oh, it's gonna take a minute for you.
It took almost the entire course of the relationship. Then
when it was clear, it was clear and you couldn't
unsee it. But it takes a minute, right, if somebody's
being charming and interested and interesting and nice and and
(41:15):
all of these things, you're not sort of going through
head saying well, let me look for the narcissistic pattern,
just saying I'm in front of a nice person. And
despite even the back and forth and the money and
the confusion, it was only then when you had the
clothes and you really saw it very quickly, how he
flipped between the good Simon bad Simon good Simon bad Simon,
that it became clear. And I think it's important for
(41:36):
people to know that sometimes the stuff, even with somebody
who is as big as a scammer and a manipulator
as he is, it took a minute to figure that out.
And a lot of people say, why didn't I see
it sooner? Why didn't I see it sooner? And they
get angry at themselves because it takes a minute, Just
so people could be kinder to themselves. It's important to
know that when I found out that he was a fraud,
(41:58):
I think it took me like one and a half
week to actually land and know that the fraud was real.
But to see the patterns of his narcissistic personalities that
took me a bit longer. Yeah. You know what's interesting, though, Eileen,
is that you did get some justice. You know, even
though he only did five months of a longer sentence,
(42:20):
there was some justice, right. Most people who go through
narcissistic relationships get no justice, right. The person just goes it,
gets to go off and go off into the sunset.
And really that's actually everybody who ever came before you
in Simon's life had that experience of no justice. I
think we could maybe make an argument that this is
maybe a half justice, right because you're still carrying the
(42:42):
wounds and the pain of having gone through that kind
of manipulation and psychological abuse. Yes, absolutely, I will never
get the justice for the mental part. The only thing
that I can do is make the best out of
it and be as strong as I am and just
move forward and just move along as well, and to
(43:03):
get over it. I think what's amazing is that you
know you shared your own trauma history. How he pretty
much used that trauma history against you to draw more
money out of you two because he created such a
sense of fear. That's why I really want to speak up,
because I know that a lot of women but also
men of course, in this type of situations, in this
(43:26):
type of relationships, if they don't see a way out,
it can be so much worse because there are a
lot of people who don't want to speak up, don't
want to tell their friends, or don't want to tell
their family. When you are in this type of situations,
a lot of people will isolate themselves because of the shame,
because of the hurt as well, and the moment you
(43:49):
get isolated, it will only get worse because then you
are still alone with your thoughts. No one is around
you to help you, to support, to be there for you.
And that's why I really want to speak up, because
I think that it's important to tell get like maybe
one or two people in your friends or maybe family,
(44:13):
where you are going to tell your story, because without
any people around you, you you cannot survive. Narcissistic abuse thrives
in isolation. Many survivors become isolated by shame, fear, and
by the narcissist themselves. Hearing these stories and sharing these
(44:34):
stories is the only way for survivors to break through
this shame and recognize that talking about it is a
key to surviving these relationships. Did you ever ask your
family or friends for help. Yes, the moment when I
found out, I immediately talk to my mother and I
(44:55):
went to see some of my friends, a few of them,
and I told them my story, and from that moment
on they were so supportive because I was isolating myself.
I didn't go out for dinner because I didn't have
any money. I didn't go to birthday parties because I
couldn't afford a gift. I didn't do that already for
(45:16):
more than a year because I couldn't afford it. Yeah,
So I also had the feeling that I had to
tell them because I didn't want to lie to them anymore,
because it felt like a lie every time I needed
to make up excuses for not going somewhere, And that
heard me the most, because I was lying to the
people who do love me. It's like you feel like
(45:38):
you're being punished twice. Not only did you go through
the relationship, but now you don't even feel you can
be open and honest with the people you care about.
So I think it's incredibly important to push back through
that shame. You didn't do anything wrong. We will be
right back with this conversation with Eileen. You know again
(46:05):
I lean your story. It played out throughout the world.
The world had so many reactions to it. As me,
as a person who studies narcissistic abuse, who works with
survivors of it, I see it as stories of narcissistic
abuse aren't as simple as we like. You came from
a very happy family. You simply believed in love. Somebody
took advantage not only your empathy but your trauma. However,
(46:29):
so many times we think of survivors of narcissistic abuse
is very passive, and you showed how actually active and
how much of a agent in your own destiny that
you really really were to this day and in your
own healing. So what's next for you? It's so important
for people to hear that no matter how bad a
(46:50):
story someone goes through, there's something to be learned and
there's often something to be paid forward to other people.
I am talking to publishers right now to write a
book because I really think that my experience again can
help people absolutely get out. And then I thought okay,
(47:11):
and what do I want to do more? Because I
cannot sit still? And then I thought, what do I
really like? And that's drinking wine? Okay, okay, And so
you're building a business around that. Yes, I'm starting to
create my own wine brands. Oh great. I hope it
(47:32):
has the words of survivor or fighter or something like
that in there, because I have to say so many times.
As a person comes through a survivorship story and recognizes
that they came out the other side, that's when you
realize it's time for me to start enacting my dreams.
Because if I could come through that and still retain
my sense of who I am, then the sky is
(47:53):
the limit. And I have no doubt love will come
flowing into your life because I think for many people,
once they get themselves to such a good a place
in themselves and wiser from going through one of these relationships,
you're actually in a magnificent position to welcome healthy love
into your life, but also be able to call those
red flags out early and say, yeah, no, you might
(48:15):
have been nice to me, but you yelled at me,
and yelling at me, it's just not gonna work. By yes, absolutely,
I already experienced it in the past three years because yes,
I am dating, but now if it doesn't feel good,
I'm just The first thing I would say is by
good for you. Yeah, and unfortunately I had to go
through this to see it now. But what doesn't kill
(48:38):
you makes you stronger. Correct. My hope is that people
will see your story, and for some people, they'll see
your story and that will be enough to stop them
from actually feeling that they have to give in the
first place, and say, oh, actually, I can set a
boundary because now it's very clear to me that even
with someone incredibly wise and smart like yourself, that this
can happen. So I think that's where these stories become
really important to share. Yes, absolutely, And also the word
(49:02):
just came out, but the CEO, the real CEO of
LD Diamonds, Check Levav, the daughter of Lef Levif. She
has reached out to us after the documentary came out
and we started up a collaboration together and we're going
to release a bracelets. Yes, there are two small rings
(49:24):
coming together, and the bracelet is called Stronger Together because
as the group we are Stronger Together. I love there
are two small diamonds in it as well. I love
that idea stronger together and get some diamonds in there
to sort of stick it to the diamond king and
the King of diamonds, because really, you're the Queen of diamonds,
my dear. What's so striking to me about how ei
(49:48):
Leaned story was told was that it actually ended up
with the world trying to find ways to demonize her
and the other women who are harmed by Simon. People
were characterizing them as gold girls, are foolish or naive.
This was a big public story, but the kinds of
things that happened to Eileen happened to people in narcissistic
(50:08):
relationships all the time. People say to them things like
didn't you see this coming? Or why didn't you just leave?
Or there's two sides to every story. When we invalidate
the survivors of these stories, we give the narcissists a
free pass, and then it emboldens other toxic people and
leaves the people harmed by these relationships less likely to
(50:32):
seek out help or talk about what happened. We have
to stop glorifying the narcissists. I know that everyone might
like to think that they would be too smart to
fall for a grifter like Simon. But I have to
tell you, while most of the people I work with
won't get their stories on TV, all narcissistic relationships are
(50:53):
a hustle and if you think you aren't vulnerable, then
you may be the most vulnerable one of all. Be careful.
That was a great conversation with Eileen, and here's some
takeaways based on the many things that we talked about. First,
narcissistic and toxic people really do use urgency and time
(51:15):
to force you to make uncomfortable choices, and if you hesitate,
they frame it as you not caring or being committed,
just like when someone is trying to sell you something
or make a bad deal in a rush. When there
is this sense of urgency that should be assigned to
slow down, and if they decide to leave the relationship,
(51:36):
then it was probably a hustle. The best prevention and
survival tool and gas lighted and narcissistic relationships is to
avoid getting isolated. That can be hard to do, but
cultivate friendships and other close relationships so you have another
glimpse into reality. As Eileen said, without any people around you,
(52:00):
you cannot survive. As our third takeaway today, I got
to remember that narcissistic relationships really are a process of indoctrination.
There are enough good days and things that make sense
in the relationship that we keep getting pulled in. Listen,
nobody asks you for money on your first date. It
(52:21):
takes a minute to identify these patterns, and that's why
it's so important in any relationship that you take your
time journal any red flags that you observe, and the
first time the relationship really feels uncomfortable, wait a minute
and talk it out with people that you trust. Thank
(52:44):
you so much for listening. Lastly, make sure you subscribe
on I Heart Radio and please rate this podcast on
Apple Podcasts. This show was produced by executive producers Jada
Pinkett Smith Fallon, Jethro Ellen Rakaton, and Dr rominey der Vassila,
(53:05):
Also producer Matthew Jones, Associate producer Maura Della Rosa, and
our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnahy and Calvin Bailiff.
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