Relationship Red Flags with Matthew Hussey

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,

(00:20):
or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This
episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people.
The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the
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(00:42):
not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia,
or their employees. So if I can be curious, not
that the next thing I'm going to do is the
next best thing or that it's going to be the
perfect thing, but if I can just be curious about
way of living, that's don't mind. Curiosity is the gateway
to a new belief, and it's much easier to flow

(01:05):
with curiosity than it is to suddenly go I can
believe something different. Can you figure out if you're dating
a narcissist? That question comes up all the time, and
you are about to find out that it's the wrong question.
After the thousands of videos and content and social media
posts that talk about the biggest red flags and the

(01:28):
five signs that you're dating a narcissist. Turns out it
may not be the right approach. Today, we are going
to hear from one of the best dating and relationships
experts in the business, Matthew Hussey. If you don't know Matthew,
he is a New York Times best selling author and
has the number one dating advice channel in the world.

(01:52):
His YouTube videos have been viewed more than four hundred
and seventy million times, and his on reaches more than
ten million followers weekly. He is also the host of
the podcast Love Life with Matthew Hussey. Today, we're going
to hear his perspective and belief that by putting all

(02:16):
of your effort into trying to avoid another toxic relationship,
you may be missing what he believes is the real antidote,
which is focusing on you giving yourself permission to hold
standards for yourself and slowing way down. And we will
also talk about why this is uniquely difficult for survivors

(02:41):
of narcissistic relationships. Matthew's a good friend and it is
a pleasure to welcome him here on navigating narcissism. We're
here with Matthew Hussey. Matthew, welcome. It's so nice to
have you here. What a great way to kick off
this second season. And I'm so honored and happy to

(03:02):
be here. I've done many many kind of podcasts in
my life, but this is this is a special one
for me to be able to team up with you. Well,
it's so nice to have you. I thought, I when
I woke up this morning, I thought, ah, I have
a friend going on today. And these conversations we've had
in sort of bits and pieces, we've had them, you know,
to your community, but we've never had when that's I

(03:23):
think all entirely focused on. You know, what I really
consider is dating in the era of narcissism, where it
seems to be so ubiquitous. We've talked a lot about
the back end of these stories, what happens when relationships
become toxic, what happens to people, But what we don't
talk about is sort of the front end. And so

(03:44):
that's what I'd love for us to talk about. To
hear from you, a dating expert who's not only worked
with thousands of women, and I know a lot of
women have really been transformed by your advice but what's
compelling to me is you've also worked with thousands of men.
How are you helping them navigate these waters? There's toxic
people there, so what do you think is what are

(04:06):
you telling them is the most efficient way to pick
out toxic patterns early on when they meet someone new.
I would almost start with the first principle, which is
that we have to stop trying to become these razor
sharp experts all the time in immediately within minutes or

(04:29):
hours of knowing someone what their nature is, and actually,
to be honest, kind of maybe a little bit give
up on that idea. The problem is the moment we
get arrogant about how great we are at deciding how
wonderful everyone else is. You know, we love saying about ourselves.
I'm a wonderful judge of character. I think I'm a

(04:49):
great judge of character, And man, have I got it
wrong in my life. When I even take my business,
I have made hires that I'm convinced are going to
be so great. We you know, they in every way
they seem to pass the checks. The interview is amazing,

(05:10):
and you know, I'm convinced this is going to be great,
and I sell the team on them, you know, And
that's the hard part. I sell the team on them.
This person is going to be great, and then they
turn out not to be competent, or they turn out
to have an issue. Once it gets hard, once it

(05:30):
actually becomes difficult, once the reality of the job sets in,
it's really humbling for me, how wrong I can be.
I always remember those moments. I always remind myself that firstly,
we don't know even by the way, you know, calling
someone's references is a much better way than this to know.
And it's always shocking to me still, how these days,

(05:53):
how few of us actually do call people's references. But
even when we call people's references, we rarely get the
truth from those references. We rarely get the real difficult
parts of that relationship and why that person may have
been let go, or why the relationship didn't work out,
why they're no longer working for that company. And in dating,

(06:13):
we don't even get references. Can you imagine if we did, though?
Can you imagine if you could call references when you
were dating someone, Oh what a world. It would be
extraordinary if you really got an insight. But we don't,
And so we're relying on in the beginning, probably a
dating profile for a lot of people these days, or

(06:35):
a first meeting or a first date, and it really
tells you very little about the relationship, tells you a
lot about how fun someone is to spend an hour
or two with, how charming they are, and even certain
things that we might say are good indicators. You might say, well,
this person is a great listener, you know, because I

(06:56):
always think that one kind of caricatured way of look
a narcissist on a date is that a narcissist is
more worried about being impressive than they are being impressed
by you. They they want to show you how great
they are. I always say, narcissists will give you the
date of your life. You know you you will have

(07:16):
the most amazing time, and you'll come away screaming about
how wonderful it was. But that's because they impressed you.
Most likely it's because there's something about them and the
show they put on that was really exciting. So you
could say, okay, well, then you really have to say,
who's impressed by me? Who's a good listener, who actually
asks me questions? And that's certainly a tick. But it's

(07:39):
also something that people can do when they know how
to make you like them even more. You know, if
I'm a good listener and if I ask you lots
of questions about yourself and I'm engrossed, then I also
know that that's going to have a big impact on you.
So I think that I guess the punchline is that character,
true character. The kind of character we're looking for is

(08:01):
the right values over time, and time is what you
do not have early on when you're making those judgments.
And that's why I almost think we have to let
go of this idea that we're so raise a sharp
at judging people and instead say, I don't know. I
haven't heard anyone say it quite that way. And I

(08:22):
love that idea of We've got to get over this
idea of us being this expert and great judge of
character from the jump. For a couple of reasons, I
can say, as recently as the last few months, the
mistakes I've made people I let them if I don't know,
and this is what I do. We aren't and there's
there's a reason for that where I want to get

(08:44):
to in a minute. But by putting this onus on
people if you should be able to pick this up.
Because I get that question all the time. Doctor Romany
tell us five things to look for on the first team.
I'm like, oh, it's early, Like do they scream at
the valet? I don't know, you know? And so but
I think that what you've done, it's even lifted that
pressure off of someone like me who's being asked an
impossible question, because what it does is it lifts a

(09:05):
shame from people who say, why didn't I pick up
on all these red flags on the first date. Now,
when you're back constructed one or two years in, they'll say, oh,
some of the stuff right there on the first date.
But again, we're really good at retrospectively putting pieces together.
It's really hard in real time when you yourself are
also in a state of sort of heightened like who

(09:27):
is this person I'm learning about them? You can't be
the expert. And I think that that's that's actually very
freeing for people to hear that it is you cannot
be sort of narcissism detective or toxic detective or anything
like that on a first date. It's just it's it's
a ridiculous ass and it also can turn us into

(09:47):
a person we don't want to be. Right essentially just
a detective for red flags. Yeah, that's not a version
of us we want to be. It doesn't make us
a compelling person to spend time with it as someone
who's constantly kind of squinting and flinching and looking at
everyone's move and trying to extrapolate that out. And I

(10:09):
prefer to be a little less judgmental in a way,
but also a little less quick to decide how wonderful
someone is. Kind of almost almost have fun, be in
the moment, enjoy the date. I'm not saying to someone
be unromantic about the date itself. Have that great time,
but we have to have ways of checking ourselves and

(10:33):
kind of letting some of that pressure out afterwards, so
that you know, it's almost like we blow off. We
have to burn off a bit of that energy that's
been created sometimes because it's a potent mix when we
want to find love, adding some excitement at having met
someone you have a connection with, adding a little insecurity,

(10:53):
adding some scarcity that you haven't met anyone you liked
in a while, and you have a very potent mix.
You are no longer or a neutral judge of this situation,
and so I think that people have to say it
we'll see as a magical phrase. We'll see. You know,
your friends will ask you how is the date, and
you say, oh my god, it was such a great date.

(11:15):
And he did this, and he did that, and they
did this, and your friends will say, oh my god,
and they'll amp you up even more. Your friends are
dangerous because they then namp you up. Yeah, and there
has to be to me, we'll see captures it perfectly.
It doesn't say I'm pessimistic. It just says I don't
know what I don't know. Could this become something? Maybe

(11:37):
we'll see. Is this person as wonderful as I hope
they are? Yeah, we'll see. Right. So it's pacing because
you're talking now about something that I talk a lot
about narcissistic relationships, which is discernment, right. So, and discernment
is that part between not constantly looking for red flags
but also not getting almost sort of drunk on the

(11:59):
wonderfulness of it. It's finding that middle ground where you're saying, basically,
slow your role a little bit like take it slow,
take it in, enjoy the goodness. Don't feel like you
have to be a detective, but also give yourself time
to be discerning. But if we if we take our
time with anything, we are going to learn a lot

(12:19):
more about it. And there is a rush. I think
people feel a rush to feel yes. And look, I've
met friends in the last forty eight hours, new people
that I really really like and impressed and am impressed with,
and in some cases I'm a little kind of almost
intimidated by it because they have done such wonderful things
in their life and that, you know, I feel that

(12:41):
urging me. I feel the teenage Matthew kind of rise
up and go I want to be liked so badly
by this person. I think they're great. I think I
like who they are, they have a wonderful way about them.
I want this person to like me. And I perpetrator
as anyone of like putting out red flag videos because
you know, in our world we do it. But I

(13:04):
almost worry that sometimes we create so many red flags
that we're in danger of labeling ourselves a red flag,
because I'm like, why with all these different red flags
I put out there, at some point I'm going to
be accused of one of these things, and one of
the ways that I almost sense that I become a
red flag is like that moment where I get really
excited about someone I know, I'm liable to text them

(13:25):
and gush in ways that maybe aren't organic to how
well we know each other yet or how much this
person has actually done, you know, and in that moment,
I speed up the relationship at an inorganic pace. And
so I think what happens is we we sometimes can

(13:46):
be as much a part of that dynamic as somebody else.
You know. It's I know you talk a lot about
love bombing. What about when we're doing a little love bomb,
you know, like when we're the ones out of insecurity
and liking someone so much that's so worried about getting
someone to lie because that we overdo it and we
try to speed the relationship up. I think one of
the things that's really wonderful about what we're talking about here,

(14:08):
which is the kind of we'll see approach, which is
more measured, is that there are multiple wins you get
out of it. One win is you don't steam head
first into a relationship or a dynamic with someone that
isn't earned that is going to make them possibly take
advantage of you, or you be blindsided by qualities you
didn't know were there. But the other win that you

(14:30):
get from it is that it is actually more attractive
because when someone recognizes that you are not someone who
has immediately decided this person is the newest best friend
you must have in your life, and that you'll say
anything to get closer to them, which then really, in

(14:51):
their eyes, lowers your value because they're like, oh, I
don't have an equal here. I have a fan, right,
so that's taking me though. Okay, so I don't have
any well here, I don't have a fan. That works
for some people. They like having a fan, They want
a fan, They want to be in a relationship with
a fan, right. So that's where it starts to get

(15:12):
a little bit dicey. If you're with somebody who's saying
I actually am looking for an equal, that's great because
that relationship then if it gets chance to take root,
it could really have some potential. But because more than
a few people out there are looking for fans, you know,
they're looking for a supply, they're looking for validation that
early response, and what you're talking about in many ways

(15:34):
sounds like something that's called the fawn response. It's actually
a sympathetic nervous system response meant to foster attachment. Right.
So Pete Walker and other people who sort of talk
about trauma and attachment talk about the fawn, which is
what you're saying, trying to win someone over. By winning
someone over, a person then feels safe. It's all about
safety seeking because that's the other thing I think we forget.

(15:57):
I mean again, I often take things down to brass tacks,
which is sort of trauma attachment safety. It's all about safety, right.
So in that first date, in any number of ways,
a person is seeking safety, which is where your distinction
between being impressive and being impressed starts to get real
tricky because for many people who are because we don't

(16:20):
when we go on a date, the thing on our back,
the accessory we forget we're wearing, is our entire life history.
And for people who have had histories, even childhood histories
of invalidation or being just minimized, mocked, criticized, dismissed, you
go into that date and someone's trying to be impressive.

(16:44):
That's something that is in the moment, feels so restorative
because in that moment, when someone's trying to be impressive.
You feel so seen even though you want them to
be impressed by you. That's not even on the radar
of somebody who grew up like that, right, So like,
oh my gosh, this person did these things for me.
The idea of someone doing for someone is remarkable. So

(17:06):
then they feel seen. Now they're gushing, oh my gosh,
I'm really into this person. I'm your fan. If you
have a personality style where you're looking more for a
fan than you are looking for equality, I'm starting to
see how this boulder tumbles down the hill. Yes, yes,
And that's so what we're bringing into that first date

(17:28):
of what we need and how we need to be
seen and how we need to feel safe is how
do you think about that when you're guiding people through
dating and understanding that we do have safety behaviors and
we have holes for trying to fill because that's what
we often try to do. How do you guide people
through that? If I have an anxious attachment style, after
the date, I want to text you and for you

(17:50):
to text me back in ten seconds otherwise I'm going
to be anxious. And if you don't text me back
for an hour or two, I'm going to it's going
to make me feel unsafe, and you don't like me,
and I like you more than you like me, and song,
And I think then what we do is we respond
to that by doing more of that thing, by giving
into that anxious style. So I want to text you

(18:10):
more now and chase up on you and maybe even
tell you that I think you're out of line for
not text me back quickly or you're not doing enough.
I think it's one thing that can help us. It's
actually starting with the end in mind in terms of
the kind of relationship we want. So if I was
feeling secure in a relationship, what kind of relationship would

(18:35):
I want to have? For example, there's a moment in
the series The Office where Jim, he's actually not someone
who gets jealous. Pam is off studying yes, and he
sits at the bar with Pam's X, who is a
kind of hot headed, jealous male controlling, And when he

(19:01):
hears that Pam has been out till three am and
left Jim a voice note on like late one night,
he says to Jim, doesn't that concern you? That would
concern me that she's out late in New York hanging
out with new people, and it puts this thing in
Jim's mind for the first time. He's not even like that,

(19:22):
but it infects him with this idea. The next thing
you know, Jim is in the car driving to New
York late at night. He's like, I'm gonna go and
find out what's going on, and you know, he gets
a little way into his drive and all of a sudden,
he says, you know what, and he turns the car
around and he says no, because that is not me

(19:45):
and that is not our relationship. And to me, that
was such a powerful moment because what it did talking
about almost putting the power back in our own hands,
he took a countability for creating the kind of relationship
he wanted to be in. In other words, his safety

(20:06):
was not going to come from showing up and finding
out that she wasn't doing anything right. His safety was
going to come from being a leader in creating the
kind of relationship he wanted. Now, if she didn't live
up to that standard, that's a different thing if he
later found out, But right now, he was going to
be a leader in creating the kind of relationship that
he wants. So if you project forward into the kind

(20:29):
of relationship that is your ideal relationship, and it's not
one where when your partner goes to the bathroom you're
checking their phone. Don't check their phone. Now, if your
ideal relationship is one where someone can actually go off
the radar for five hours or ten hours or whatever,
and you feel fine, You feel great because there's no

(20:53):
anxiety there. You know they love you, you know they
care about you, know they're loyal. You know I know
if my partner and this isationship has been a beautiful
one for me because my partner, if she disappeared for
twenty four hours, as long as she sent me a
tech saying I'm safe, I would not have jealous feelings,
I would not have anxiety. I wouldn't wonder what she's
up to. Right and now, if that's the relationship you

(21:15):
want to be in, start with behaviors that build that
kind of relationship, because that relationship is a representation of
the kind of relationship where you actually feel safe. So
that doesn't mean obviously start giving the amount of energy
that you would if you were in a full blown
relationship with this person. It means do the things in
the beginning that imply you're going to have a healthy

(21:39):
relationship with this person. If the cadence of what they do,
if the standard they give you or the respect they
give you quickly reveals itself to be one that isn't
in line with that, that then becomes a conversation and
we can talk all about this. But I think there's
different ways of having the conversation depending on how early

(22:02):
it is, because there's a way to wait into aggressively
or in a way sometimes even too seriously when you
don't know someone very well. But to me, rather than
following your style, follow the moves that would create the
kind of safe relationship you actually want to be in.
Model the behavior of the relationship you want to be in.

(22:22):
And that means, by the way, if you go if
you date someone, if you've gone two dates with someone
and you haven't heard from them in the last couple
of days, reach out to them first and ask them
how they're doing and how their day is. Model the
kind of communication you want to see from them instead
of just being led by what they're doing. Right there,

(22:44):
you're nailing into something that I hear from clients I
work with in therapy. So I'll work with young client
not even always young clients. Sometimes clients supposed to worse
their dating. I know I'm not supposed to text them,
they should be texting me. How long should I wait
before I text back? Yeah? I'm not a dating expert.
I'm like, how long? I mean? And I'm saying what
you're saying, like, if you want to communicate with them,

(23:06):
communicate with them? No, no, no, Then I'm going to
feel needy. Shouldn't they be chasing me? I said, why
would they want? And I'll often be quite perplexed. And
I'm I think from a more of a you know again,
maintaining your identity and a healthy sense of self. I'm
hitting it. But what you're saying, though, let's face it
and tell me if I'm wrong, is isn't the prevailing

(23:30):
wisdom you need to wait? If you text too soon,
the whole thing's going to go away. Bringing it back
to this narcissism topic, nobody plays the game better than
narcissistic people because they're often setting the rules for the game,
moving the goalposts all over the game. Effect they're changing
the game. You think you're playing soccer, then it's ruged me,
and then it's basketball, and so it's just shifting all

(23:53):
the time, they get to be the shifter, and so
you have someone who's coming in with the best of intention.
I'm going to try to make this relationship be the
way I want. I know what I wanted to do,
but I wanted to be trusting. I wanted to be collaborative.
I want it to feel safe and secure. And now
someone is saying and now they text them, and then

(24:14):
there's silence because for that other person, let's say, it's
like it is a game for them, or they can't
be bothered. They're just at that point they don't want
to do this dance. I have a feeling I know
your answer, but I'm hitting this from where I think
a lot of people are saying. That's not been my experience.
And I was told not to text back. So help

(24:35):
us understand that, Matthew, because in a way, I'm thinking
of every client who's arass me this question. Now I
get to go back with the answer, So tell us.
I feel like I have so many different ways of
coming at this, so I'll maybe come at it from
a couple of different angles. Firstly, the attraction is a dance,
and you can't be the same person in the dance.

(24:56):
You can't make the same step all the time. If
in salsa you step backwards, the next thing is your
turn to step forwards. It's not step backwards and then
step backwards again. And then when they do something, step
backwards again and just keep being slightly out of reach
and just that's that's not a fun dance. Not for
a confident person, an insecure man, or a man with

(25:16):
problems that he needs to fix. He will keep pursuing
you in that dance. But you're attracting a dance partner.
You shouldn't be trying to attract. So if you step
back last time, it's kind of your turn to step forwards.
And if you step forward last time, it's kind of
your turn to step back and create space and allow
them to step forward now. But people don't do that

(25:39):
in the dance. They do one or the other. They
step backward, backward, backward. I'm going to just keep him chasing,
keeping chasing, keep him chasing. Which, by the way, I've
had dates in my life where I got to the
end of the date and I truly had no idea
if this person liked me, none other than that they
said yes to a date. I had no idea. By
the end of the day, I just left the date

(26:00):
thinking they definitely aren't interested, and then somewhere along the
way later on I'd find out they were disappointed I
didn't ask them another date, and I'd be like, I
had no indication of that whatsoever. So that's like an
example of someone who's never stepping forward. But then there
are people who say, under the guise of under the
label of I'm proactive, they step forwards and the guy

(26:24):
maybe text back, But then the next day they step
forwards again and they text him, and the guy text
back maybe, but then the next day they text against.
They're the one keep they keep making the step. They go,
why is it I always text him first? He never
text me first? Yeah, Yeah, you're always stepping forward, got it?
And you use there's no rhythm. There's no rhythm to this.

(26:45):
So that's a big problem in that some of the
work you've done, there's great videos about this, it's in
your book. I find it so compelling and also so
challenging and sort of the narcissism landscape, which is this
idea of standards, which Matthew I think is some of
the most important stuff you put out there, because what
you say about standards isn't just about dating. It's about

(27:06):
any human relationship. We enter into a friendship, in the workplace, everything.
And that's where you're getting to with this, is there
is a standard you set for yourself. You're not even
saying that there's a uniform set of standards. You're saying
there is a standard. In many ways, it's the standard
you hold yourself to, the standard you'd hold others two
And it's a standard you'd hold a relationship that you'd

(27:29):
want to be in. And that seems to be what
you're saying. If a person has had a backstory where
they have felt chronically devalued for any number of reasons,
how do they start developing that sense of standard? Because
without that, Matthew, if you do not even with that

(27:50):
sense of standard, it's hard to date in a world
where there might be some invalidating toxic, antagonistic people even
with those standards. Without them, it's a blood bath. So
where do those standards come from? How are people supposed
to cultivate them, especially, like I said, if they've had
legacy issues, family of origin issues, trauma, other stuff that

(28:14):
I know people listening to this podcast with saying my
backstory doesn't set me up to sad standards. Whenever you
talk about standards, self worth always comes into the mix
as a conversation. Right, Oh, you don't love yourself enough,
so you don't have standards, And there's always like that
becomes kind of the central, the heart of the conversation.
I'm not saying that's false. I think that's absolutely true.

(28:35):
You can attack the standards question from a confidence perspective,
but you also have to attack it and understand it
from the perspective of familiarity of what you know. There
are things that we all learn early on that are

(28:55):
as much to do with simply what we know as
they are to do with comence. Confidence almost brings it
into a more emotive world, as opposed to a world
of just this is what I understand, this is what
I've seen, this is what I've experienced in my life,
so I don't know a different game. This is a
good place to talk about trauma bonding. Trauma bonding is

(29:19):
the conflation of chaos and love, of inconsistency with excitement,
and of having to prove yourself and keep justifying another
person's unhealthy or downright toxic behavior. A major originator of
the trauma bond is familiarity. When something feels familiar, even

(29:44):
if it is unhealthy, it can feel safe, comfortable, and
just as we may have done in childhood, we may
associate that unhealthy behavior with love. I've not experienced. It's
a different set of rules. To me. This is how
the world is. And I think that even when we

(30:05):
logically can see that other people are having a different
experience than we're having, or that their relationship seems to
follow a different set of rules, when it comes to
our own life, the emotional reality is what we have experienced.
I see it like when someone comes out of a relationship,
let's say, in with a narcissist. That person doesn't have

(30:27):
reference points for what healthy looks like. For the fact
that they can be a different way, and for the
fact that if they are a different way, it will
actually get a different result. That's all unmapped territory. So
what we have to understand is that you know, if

(30:48):
you've never stuck up for yourself and you've not been
taught that, then that is such unknown territory that doing
it is alien, and the idea that if you do it,
it will actually produce a better result, either short term
or long term, is you have no reference points for

(31:09):
a belief to set there. So for me, a huge
thing that I think there are two big solutions. One
is to recognize that doing what we've been doing makes
us not just miserable, but creates a kind of living
hell for us. And one of the reasons that people

(31:32):
get out finally is because that living hell has become
too much. Their life has become so chaotic, they have
lost so much, their life has been blown up to
the point where this hell is no longer. I cannot
stay here a day longer. And so this thing that

(31:52):
I've been so terrified of doing, which is leaving, suddenly
becomes the better option. My worst fear has finally become
the better option. So when someone does that, I think
one of the problems we have in upholding standards is
that the hell that made us move in the first
place starts to drift and we lose connection with the

(32:13):
pain of it. And when we lose connection with the
pain of it, we start to reconsider tolerating the very
kinds of behavior with a new person that landed us
in that hell in the first place. So I actually
think that if people can find mechanisms for reconnecting to that,
they don't actually need confidence. You don't need confidence. If

(32:35):
your hand is in a flame, you just get your
hand out of the flame, right, right, right, So there's
connecting with the heat of the flame, so that you
do something not because you feel so worthy, but because
you go, I just know. And then we start to
build confidence on top of that slowly by beginning to

(32:58):
get someone to the point where they can take small
actions that create little reference points for the fact that
life can be different, and I think that is a
magical and subtle place to be. Is just all you
need is an opening in life, is to know that

(33:22):
you just need a curiosity that my way of existing
and how I've lived and what I've put up with
is not the only way in the world, because everyone
else doesn't just live like that. So if I can
be curious, not that the next thing I'm going to
do is the next best thing or that it's going
to be the perfect thing, but if I can just
be curious about a way of living that's not mine.

(33:44):
But curiosity is the gateway to a new belief and
it's much easier to flow with curiosity than it is
to suddenly go I can believe something different. My session
with Matthew will continue after this break. Being curious and
holding space for the idea that it can be different

(34:06):
is actually something that really does come out of not
only the thinking on self compassion Kristin Neff's work in
that area, but it even it's something we see in
a model of therapy we call acceptance and commitment therapy,
where it's this idea of the fancy derm bird's cognitive diffusion.
It's splitting yourself away from your thoughts. We become our thoughts, okay,
and people who have gone through narcissistic relationships do become

(34:28):
their thoughts and becnfused to their thoughts. The diffusion becomes,
You're not your thoughts and to be open that there
can be a different one. I'm going to push you
on the standards conversation because I'm gonna we're gonna talk
about the doctor romany of it all. To say that
I am a dating or have been a dating disaster
would actually be a kind characterization of how I went

(34:49):
through this. Whatever less than zero standards were is me.
I would go into these relationships thinking that if I
did not yield on everything. If I did not do
everything on their schedule, on their time frame, I'm going
to lose this person because why would they hang around?

(35:12):
And I am replaceable now when I think about that,
because even as you're talking, I'm like, girl, we're your
absolute utter lack of standards. What I know where it
came from. I had legacy issues around narcissism. Really, the
sense was we don't we're not going to see you,
we're not going to recognize you. You're not important. Okay.
Part of that's cultural, Matthew, Okay. I grew up in

(35:35):
a culture at a time when having a girl was
a bad thing. When I was an infant presented to
members of the family, they actually mocked my mother for
having a daughter. So these are I truly believe that
this early stuff gets wired. I was bad because I
was a girl, and the real belief was who's really

(35:55):
going to have you? I was a brown girl in
this culture, which I believed. Again, it's a different time.
I'm quite a bit older than you, so I wasn't attractive,
so nobody was going to want me. People in my
own culture weren't going to want me because I was
getting too old. I was too weird, I was too overweight.
Pick something. So if somebody gave me even a little

(36:18):
bit of attention, I was going to do anything. Oh
drive two hours, of course, I'll drive two hours. Wait
three hours, of course, I'll wait throughout. Oh you're actually
going to pay for dinner. Well, I better do anything
you ask me to. Okay. Until the very relationship I'm in,
I had no standards at the beginning. That relationship largely
ended up working out. We're still together. I actually had

(36:41):
I read your book recently to prepare for the podcast.
I had an argument with him, like I didn't have
standards with you, and he's like, what do you want
me to do about it now? And you know and so,
But here's my point is that I zero zero standards.
Multiple narcissistic relationships that devastated me, that changed my emotion, DNA,
I don't trust, I struggle in making new friends and

(37:06):
all of that. And I know the people who listen
to this podcast had very similar experiences. It wasn't one relationship.
This is a lifetime of this where do we begin? So,
you know, I understand that an idea that it could
be different that was less of a even something to
be open to rather than like a remote hope, could

(37:26):
it be different? It was a question rather than a possibility.
That's what I'd love to hear you unpack a little
bit more of a gun again. That's why I'm putting
myself out there, because this isn't an ephemeral question. Matthew.
I lived this. I know. I still really don't have
standards so much. So I happen to love the person
I'm with very much. But if that thing blew up,
and it could blow up, I mean, I think we

(37:47):
have to hold we have to be aware that that could.
I've committed to myself. I couldn't do it again because
I feel like it's so wired in me to not
have that and I'm lucky that anyone pays attention to me,
So I don't trust myself. Are corrected, walk us through that.
A good starting point is to redefine for ourselves what

(38:08):
a win is. I made a video on my YouTube
channel recently that was standards related, and there was a
comment that really made me pause for a moment. This
woman said, I have tried having standards, and all it's
meant is me not finding anyone bigger. So I've settled

(38:32):
for casual because I'm not getting any younger, and it
means I get to have something instead of nothing, and
I'd rather at least have something that I can enjoy. Okay,
it sounds like my sore sister, I'm telling you like
I feel that maybe I wrote that comment. Now you
actually didn't, but I kind of wish I did, because
it's that good that right there, which you're hearing. I'm

(38:54):
hearing hundreds of times a day from the people who
listen to what I put out there, which are I
do want love, I want companionship. I don't want to
be alone forever. But if the minute I actually put
the line in the sand, as it were, and not
even a line in the sand, but really expect engagement

(39:15):
at a healthy level, it all goes away. So it's
I'm just going to So it's either die alone, lady
with cat, or it's you know. So, I'm so glad
that person made that comment because I can that's exactly
what I hear from people asking about these issues. And
if you're ultimately, if anyone in a position of coaching

(39:36):
is treating that comment flippantly, then they're not a thinking
person because that is one of the great kind of
existential dilemmas of life, I think, is that we're not
going to be here forever. We have a limited amount
of time. We're all trying to be happy, we're all
trying to enjoy it. We're all trying to find some love,

(39:56):
some version of love, some version of connection. And people's
reality is feeling like, you know, yeah, I had standards
because you kind of with some people. You know, yeah,
you had a standard because you had a whole world
of people waiting for you over here. You know, you
had a standard because you felt like you had options.
And we're having options makes you feel like you're gonna

(40:18):
have a standard more easily than I didn't meet anyone
I liked in the last five years, and now all
of a sudden, someone came along and they liked me,
and that like now becomes very compelling, and all of
a sudden, we're not connecting with well, okay, but do
we share the same values, do we have the same
way of looking at life? Do we ever similar outlook?
You know, is this person actually treating me well? It

(40:40):
becomes enough that they like me because they're being liked,
or someone coming along that I'm attracted to and they
like me. It feels so rare that it now is
like I got to hold onto this, and it's a
holding on that makes me suddenly do things that I
would never normally do, or put up with things that
I would never normally put up with. I think that

(41:01):
we have to redefine what the win is in all
of this, and you can look at that a number
of ways. If you redefine if winning the game is
finding peace, then you look for the things that will
create peace in your life. Whether it's single or in
a relationship. It kind of doesn't matter if someone comes
along and what they're doing robs you of your peace,

(41:25):
and it's because not because of something you have to
work on, but it's because of their behaviors. It's disrespectful.
They absolutely make it unclear as to whether they really
like you or not, or whether they're interested in moving
things forward or progressing. You have a conversation with that
person and you explain to them, this is not making
me feel good, and because of that, I find myself

(41:46):
wanting to give less and less energy to it. And
you start to back away. I think you know that woman,
I really her comments stop me in my tracks for
a reason because she made a very compelling argument. But
I also think she made an overly simplistic argument because
I think that having standards it will absolutely push some
people away, but having standards also is a magnet for

(42:11):
people that you wouldn't attract without standards. It actually does
pull certain people towards you. I mean my fiance Audrey.
She did things. But I remember when I first I
met her in London, and when I first went back
to LA, I was not treating her seriously. I was
not progressing the relationship. I went back to LA and

(42:34):
you know, I was still being single and I was
not I didn't want a long distance relationship. But I
still texted her and I still I think one day
I sent her a message that said like I miss
you or I'm thinking of you. And in that moment
she had a choice to make this person likes me.
That she would have felt and there probably also would

(42:57):
have been at least a little excitement that person that
I like is reaching out to me. Now that excitement
may have also been combined with frustration and resentment and
anger that what the hell like I haven't heard from
him in weeks and now I get this it's a
cold thing together. But some people take all of those
feelings and they go, I'm going to set them all

(43:18):
to one side and just respond as if I'm fine, yes,
because I don't ay, I don't even want to communicate
to this person that they have any leverage over me emotionally,
but be I kind of want to see where this goes,
and so I'm just going to roll with it. Now
that when someone does that, it sends a very clear

(43:38):
message to the person on the other side, which is that,
let's call it negligence of this relationship or dynamic whatever
situationship goes unnoticed, yes, or at the very least it
goes ignored, you're willing to ignore it, which concratizes the behavior.

(43:59):
And she didn't do that. She didn't play cool. She
also didn't just kind of respond to be flirtatious. And
I'm well, now that I've got one text from him,
I'm going to get him really attracted this time. What
she said was, Hey, I hope you're well. To be honest,

(44:20):
I haven't felt that close to you in a while,
and rightly or wrongly, this message comes across like a
bid for attention, oh, you know, to everyone knows I
consider Audrey a friend, and I just went deeper into
my friend love for her because that's good. That's so good.
I can't I'm going to tell you my fifty seven

(44:41):
year old self could not imagine having the confidence to
say that, that's amazing, it's so I love that. And
she will tell you that there was a time when
she didn't have that confidence, and which, by the way,
I think is really important that people understand. You can
change at any time in your life. It doesn't matter
you've been a certain way your whole life, you've always
had a certain pattern. You can change. I don't care

(45:03):
what age you are, what stage you are. You can
change at any point in your life and create a
new reference point that leads to a new belief. But
you have to do something different to create a new
reference point. Now, she sent me that message, and there's
a couple of important things to note about that message.
It wasn't in any way aggressive. It wasn't passive aggressive either.

(45:23):
It was clear. She even said I hope you're well.
You know it, It still had compassion. Hey, I hope
you're well. I haven't felt that close to you in
a while. Now that acknowledges that we haven't been close.
And then it said and rightly or wrongly. The rightly
or wrongly is really powerful phraseology because when you say

(45:44):
rightly or wrongly, you're also removing ego from the situation.
Because she's not saying I'm accusing you of this. She's
saying I might be wrong. I might have completely misread
this situation. But here's how it reads. This comes across
like a bid for attention. Now she shone a light

(46:06):
on that elephant in the room like that, there was
no elephant in the room. After that, it was like oh,
and I immediately I felt called out. I realized, oh,
I can't do this here. This isn't And by the way,
what I was doing wasn't even a conscious thing. What
it is is I'm just trying to get mine. Yes,
she called it right. I just want to I just

(46:27):
I'm feeling lonely and I'm looking for something, you know,
And we're very quick to kind of, you know, demonize
people in different ways, but a lot of the time
it's like just everyone's an addict in some way, everyone's
got their thing. Right in that moment, I'm like, I
need I need something I'm looking for something. I'm there's
something I'm not getting in my life that is making

(46:50):
me reach out in that way, but not in a
way that's appropriate for the kind of investment she's looking
for right now. Anyone out there hoping that that made
me suddenly say, you know what I want a relationship
would be wrong, and that's important to note because we're
engaged now. But I didn't suddenly have an about turn

(47:13):
that day, which is why A key thing is you
are in love, you are either playing the short game
or you are playing the long game, and real standards
is about playing the long game. It's I am willing
to turn this thing away and not say and don't

(47:35):
ever come back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's ego. Instead,
it's what you're offering is not what I'm buying. There's
a door that you can walk through that's open to you,
but you're never going to get through this wall that
you're trying to get through here. If you want to

(47:55):
come over here and walk through this door, that door
was actually unlocked, and that or is one way you
actually invest. It's consistent. You make me feel safe, but
that's over here right now, you're over here. You're trying
to bodge through a wall, and you're not going to
get through that wall. I'm going to hold on this
point to elaborate on it a little bit more. This

(48:17):
distinction between the short game and the long game is
a difficult one for survivors who, by definition, will be
playing the short game. It's what people with histories of
betrayal and trauma do. Short games leave us feeling safe

(48:38):
in the moments, and healing and growth are about giving
ourselves permission to play the long game. And it took time,
but what I quickly realized about her was, oh, this,
I'm never going to be able to come back to
her with this dynamic. So when I do come back,

(49:00):
it's going to have to be with a different dynamic.
And by the way, someone may still try their like
three months down the line, and you have to show
then that that standard is not a tactic, it is
a standard. Right, there's a difference. There is a difference, right,
don't have tactics have standards. A standard is not a tactic.
A tactic is I'm doing this so that you give

(49:20):
me some short term result. I want. A tactic feels
like a manipulation. Yeah, long game this is who I am.
It doesn't even have to be. It's who I am
because I'm so amazing and I deserve this and I
deserve that, and no like that to me is still
kind of just goes back to ego in a way.
You know, it's like we I think we get lost

(49:41):
in that logic in a way when that whole like um,
who would want me? Or I'm replaceable or that's kind
of still ego. And I think the same is true
of standards, is that if I have those standards, those
standards are actually something that starts to score to my value.

(50:02):
We think that we have to deserve it before we
have standards, But in a way, the standards are a
poll in the sand. This right here, this is a
good point to dive a little deeper. This languaging around
what I deserve is tricky for many people who don't
believe they deserve to be treated well and may actually

(50:25):
believe everyone else deserves that, just not them. Basically, what
I'm hearing from you is you're talking about egolists dating
and dating as a whole person, and you can only
do that if you do the whole person work, which
is valuing yourself being authentic to yourself, knowing what you

(50:46):
stand for. Our one thing you talked about earlier were values, right,
I'm going to push back on that a little. I
actually think that for a lot of the folks who
have gone through really toxic relationships, the values aren't even
as important as the behaviors, Like how is this person
showing up? You know? The values are great, and I
think they're higher order guiding mechanisms, but ultimately it's the

(51:07):
how does this person respond to even the simplest inquiries
in the house? Hey, do you mind just emptying the dishwashers?
So I can? You know, so I can get the
kitchen done? What disher? Like? How many? I mean that
might seem farcical? Hundred times of that? You know, you're exhausted,
you're sick, Like everything becomes the dishwasher conversation. And so

(51:29):
it's about the behaviors. The behaviors to me are everything
you know, and I think that we get so lost
in thoughts and feelings. Ultimately, it's how a person shows up,
even in narcissistic relationships. Matthew, I'm working on the book,
and that it's one thing that's been really coming through
my veins. Is where is this a narcissist? Aren't they this?
It's then the trait. It comes down to how do

(51:51):
they behave? How is this person acting behaving? What are
they saying? What are they doing? Because that's all we've
got to work with. That's all I got to work
with as a shrink, And that's all a person can
really talk about, because they're gonna gaslight you about everything else.
They're probably gonna gaslight you about the behavior too, by
the way, but all of this. The wholer you become,

(52:12):
the more you can be that, the more you can
send that Audrey text, the more you're able to say.
Yet this, you know, this was a bid for attention.
When I think about sending that text, why are the
way I am? I still can't imagine doing that. I
was helping a friend through a situation and the friend

(52:33):
was actually going to have standards and how she was
texting or emailing or something like that someone, and I
felt a physiological reaction in me. I'm like, she sets
that standard, she may end up being alone. And I
was like, oh, we feel this in our bodies. So
that's how this breaking out of this concept of standards.

(52:55):
This goes beyond just even how you think this is
in your body, because I am thinking like I still
hold to like I'm lucky than anyone wants. Like you're
sitting here across from me on this podcast, I really
make if Matthew says no, I get that, you know,
and I wouldn't even have been surprised or mad at you,
because that's all I think I deserve. So when I
see a friend trying to set a standard, I actually

(53:17):
get anxious. So that's why I'm saying, is that wholeness,
but I'm better? It's definitely become better. Is that concept
of how do you get yourself to that place of
healthy enough to date? In terms of where to start,
I think that it is really important to get very

(53:39):
clear on regardless of what we think we're worth. You know,
when we talk about how do we make ourselves whole?
I actually think the first distinctions we need to make
is what never works? What never works? It never works
if I betray myself and do things that I really
don't want to do, never works. And I try to

(54:02):
please people? What has it done for me my whole life?
It has made people use me, It's made them take
advantage of me, even sometimes when they're good people. It's
made them take advantage because they just don't realize. It
has made me resentful, it's made me bitter, it's made
me unhappy, and it has not won people's respect. This
has never worked, or this being in a relationship with

(54:23):
a person like this has never worked. It's never made
me happy, it's never brought me piece, it's never brought
me the safety I so seek. If you start to
define what never works, that alone can guide your behavior
to somewhere new. You know, if, for example, as you said,
playing it cool is an overcorrection, then what you can
say is, Okay, I am going to just again curiosity

(54:48):
amazing word. I'm going to get curious about different ways
of behaving that aren't playing it cool. So the next
time I get a little anxious or feeling like, oh,
someone hasn't reached out in a week, you can maybe
I'm going to try something new. I'm going to become
a social experiment. Or in my own life, I'm going
to say to someone, hey, it made me sad that

(55:09):
you didn't taket me this week, and I'm just going
to see where that goes. Because I may well be
surprised by a new reality. I may get a reaction
I never expected, and that creates a reference point. So
curiosity very very important. Even if you don't know what
to do. Even if you can't pick up the phone
to Romany or Matthew Hussey, you can pick up you

(55:29):
can say to yourself, what represents a new action from
me than the one I always do? Yes? And one
of the most practical things we can do to give
us a more stable base from which to have standards
is to add more legs under the table. Strengthen the
legs under the table, and ask yourself, where have Because

(55:52):
I poured so much into another person, what legs under
the table disappeared for me? Yeah? What did I lose?
That is making me feel irrationally weak, That is making
me feel like I need this thing to breathe. Because

(56:14):
if you can figure that out, Oh you know what
I need to strengthen the family leg? Oh you know
what I need to strengthen the purpose leg doesn't have
to be work. You don't have to go and make
a bunch of money. What gives you a sense of
purpose or what hobby can you lose yourself in and
fall in love with again? What friendships are going to
give you great meaning in your life because you strengthen them.

(56:37):
And these things aren't a magic pill. They don't solve
all of your self worth issues, but they give you
legs under the table. And when you have legs under
the table, you feel more willing to take risks. And
saying no to someone or saying I didn't like that
behavior is represents a risk in our minds. But I
can take a risk. If I know romeny I, before

(57:01):
I went on live TV, I would get very nervous
and I would call my brother right before going on
live TV. I didn't tell him what I was about
to do. In five minutes, I just called him and
I just asked him how he was, and I just
had a conversation with him about him and life. And
and I finished that call and I went, I have
a brother. I have a brother, and I love him,

(57:24):
and that's so much more than this five minute segment
I'm about to do on this TV show. And all
of a sudden, it wasn't that it didn't the TV
show didn't matter to me. It didn't eradicate one hundred
percent of my nerves, but it gave me enough confidence
to go and be dangerous. It gave me enough confidence
to be who I really was in that situation. And

(57:48):
you know how people talk about like, you know, like
a I won't say the word, but fu money, Like
that person has fu money. And what we're really referring
to in that phase is they have enough money they
can get a deal put in front of them that's
not right, where the terms aren't good and they can go, no,
I don't need this. If we could build few confidence,

(58:12):
that's it, yeah, right, yeah, or few legs correct. Really,
that's why I mean few legs on the lifestyle level. Yeah, yeah,
that's a great place to stop. If you're saying, practically,
how do I start to strengthen myself enough to where
I can actually live by these standards that I almost

(58:33):
don't quite feel ready for. I love that idea of
the few legs under the table because I think that,
I mean, again, what does that imply More than anything,
it implies stability. There's no knock in this table down
because they think a lot of survivors, people who've really
been through it, feel like they're at best, at best,
their table has two legs, and many feel like it's
just a slab on the ground. Like there's just no

(58:55):
table and so but most feels are incredibly unstable, and
so that idea of the legs as places of stability,
and they may be things as I have a friend,
I like, I have a volunteer, something I do that
I volunteer on, which is definitely something that in terms
of surviving narcissistic relationships, and then saying there are these
things that matter to me, Like I said, once I

(59:16):
started feeling more autonomous professionally and loving, like not just
showing up and getting a check, but loving what I
was doing, it was almost like seven legs sprung because
some of those other things I wasn't able to cultivate.
We will be right back with this conversation with Matthew.

(59:36):
There's a couple of things I don't want us to
forget to get into one thing I wanted because this
legs under the table thing is taking me to a
place where I think a lot of people feel this
tremendous pressure, which is time. Okay, by time, I mean
there's two things. I mean there's the reality of time
and there's even the biology of time. This came up
when I spoke at your retreat in Florida and one

(59:58):
of the questions that's stuck with me. Most people were
very I mean very engaged in the conversation about sort
of toxic relationships and dating. But one thing they came
up with, sort of having children, the issue of biology,
and it is something that comes up over and over again.
I'm thirty five, I'm thirty seven, I'm thirty eight. I
want to be a mother. Now listen, I'll tell you

(01:00:19):
this reproductive technology has changed. I in a very short
period of time have started counseling multiple people on deciding
they're going to do it alone. These are women and
they're going to do it alone. I now also know
of men who've done it alone. And you know, gay
men have been doing it because they've had to get you,
get a starry, get you to carry a child. But

(01:00:40):
these are men who are These are straight men saying
I have been burned too many times, but I want
to be a father. How do you help people navigate
this space of dating, the risks and dating getting into
unhealthy relationships because they feel a pressure of by society,
by very biologically real time, our cultural religious pressure. How

(01:01:02):
do you guide people through that? In my own life,
I can relate to coming at everything from a place
of worst case scenario and always going to that place,
always catastrophizing. And you know, a long time ago I

(01:01:23):
recognized that one of the great elephants in the room
when it came to me helping women was that there
was this ticking clock that applied by the way applies
to men as well, which is important to point out,
but applies to women on a different level in the
way that they they have an age by which biologically

(01:01:46):
it's typical that they will not be able to now
fulfill a dream that they have perhaps always had or
always been told to have, of having children biologically themselves.
And if you're not talking about that, then you're not
really covering dating, in my opinion, because it's all very

(01:02:07):
well to say have standards and do this, and do that,
and say no to this. But if you're never mentioning
one of the key things that is behind that rush
for people, and one of the key things, perhaps the
key thing that is robbing people of their leverage and
their power personally, then you really aren't understanding what's going on.

(01:02:30):
And once I realized this, I didn't know whether to
talk about it or not in truth, because I knew
it would be a mindfield for me as a man,
and I knew that there would be a kind of
and perhaps rightly so, a sense of you don't fully
understand or you can never understand. But at a certain
point I stopped caring whether people criticized me for talking

(01:02:52):
about it, because I realized, if I can at least
start the conversation, then people are going to have the conversation.
And what I deal with in droves is people who
get to a point in their life when not having
had the conversation, not just with someone else, with themselves,
has deeply, deeply affected their life, and they are now

(01:03:14):
grieving because they never had the conversation. Correct, So I'm
now less worried about being clumsy and more worried about
having the conversation. And I will say this, perhaps to
reinforce your militant point. I find myself addressing this almost
from the same place of strategy and control, but from

(01:03:40):
the point of actually assessing, honestly, what are my options.
Let me stop for a moment, Let me stop running,
Let me stop racing to every date, Let me stop
trying to make this relationship move really fast, because I
think it has to happen. It has to happen with
this person. If it doesn't, oh my god, what am
I going to do? Let me stop for a moment

(01:04:01):
and have a hard conversation with myself. What is it
I want? Okay, maybe plan A is I meet someone
amazing and we have children of our own, we're both fertile,
we can both have that, and we do that. That
may be plan A, But you better fall in love
with plan B. Fall in love with plan B even

(01:04:26):
while plan A is still a possibility. What's you have?
It starts with saying what is plan B? What is
plan B? If this doesn't happen, what's plan B? And
it might be okay, Well, if I don't meet someone
by this age, I'm going to do it myself. I'm
going to decide that now. Because the moment I've truly
decided that and fallen in love with it, that's a

(01:04:47):
step further, I grant you. But if I can actually
live there for a moment, even before, it has to
be a reality and I can go, can I love that?
You know what? I think I can? And by the way,
if I can't love it, that's also a of closure.
If I've realized that I don't want that. That's okay,
no judgment. But when you make your peace with that,
you know what, I want to do this as a

(01:05:08):
traditional unit or not at all, that's closure. But if
you know, oh, I will do this by myself. If
it doesn't happen, that's closure. And I can even love that.
And by the way, go find people who have done
that and love it who have done that, and it's
the greatest gift they gave themselves who have done that.

(01:05:29):
And by the way, is plans adoption is go run
the plans and at any time if you're willing to
make Plan B the new Plan A. And I really
believe in life the key to happiness is not just
deferring to Plan B, but it's making plan be so
beautiful that it is Plan A. Now that God, my god,

(01:05:52):
I'm so glad Plan A didn't happen to me. That's
happiness in life is when you can pivot in that way,
and whether it's by and I did a whole podcast
episode with two experts on freezing your eggs and it
was an amazing episode and we got all the detail
on it and the real process of what people have
to go through when they do that and you can

(01:06:14):
hear for yourself. That might buy me some time. It
might at least be a pressure valve. Is super expensive.
Many people can't do it, can't afford to do it,
don't want to take the time off work. But if
I want to do that, that may be another pressure valve.
But let me actually assess this. And most of us,
we not only are unwilling to have hard conversations with

(01:06:35):
other people, but we are unwilling to have hard conversations
with ourselves. When we have that hard conversation with ourselves,
things change for people. There is a different power to them.
And now, by the way, if I've decided you know
what I want, I don't want to I actually do
not want to casual date. I don't want connection more
than I want an actual family. So the next time

(01:06:56):
someone comes into my life and they like me and
it feels fun and exciting, I'm actually not assessing it
just through that lens anymore. I'm assessing it through the
lens of is this a time waster? And if this
person is kind of being like I hear from them
one month and not the next, this is not someone
who's consciously looking for a relationship. So I'm going to

(01:07:17):
back off. And if you ask me why I'm backing off,
I'm not going to be aggressive. If I'm going to say,
to be honest with you, I know that what I
have to offer is super valuable and super precious, and
when I give it to someone, they're going to be
super lucky. And I want to give it to someone
who I feel is actually investing on the level I'm
willing to invest. And I don't feel like you're in
that space now. That can make someone come close, be

(01:07:40):
closer to you, or it can drive someone away. Either way,
you will find the right person faster if you say
the no to the wrong person quicker. But you can
only say no to the wrong people quicker. If you've
defined wrong people right. Right person isn't person I have
a connection with. Right person is person who's on the
same path as me, who I have a connection with.

(01:08:02):
And if you've actually defined that, because you've already had
the hard conversation with yourself about what's most important right now,
you know what to say no to. I think there
are people everywhere right now who haven't actually figured out
what it is they're saying no to, And so anything
that's exciting that comes along. Okay, you have my time

(01:08:23):
and my energy and my attention, and that you don't
get that time back. I think that the falling in
love with the plan not only has implications for how
people find love meet people, but it's also how they
get out of relationships because Plan B on the back
end of a relationship is potentially having to date again

(01:08:45):
someday or being alone or living alone for the first
time in twenty thirty forty years for some people, right,
and so they falling in love with that Plan B
two is it's a whole different game because the front
end of that hasn't been constructed in our lives, and
it was that work of falling in love with the
Plan B to me, has a lot of power for

(01:09:06):
survivors because that falling in love with the Plan B
could also be how you take yourself back after you've
been hurt and allow yourself to reconstruct the standard not
to meet someone else, but to actually make a new life.
It's not just about meeting and falling in love. It's
about loving life, loving your life, and to me, that
that's still love. It's not just love of the other.

(01:09:28):
Because if you do love your life it's going to
come friends, future partner, anything like that. And a lot
of that is intentionality. It's teaching people to look for
those moments to love and again, holidays were primed for that.
In the clients I was working with, I was like,
let's talk about what Christmas was like without him, and
they're like, oh, actually, I didn't even think about it

(01:09:49):
was really fun this year, Like we didn't clean up
the wrapping paper, where I was like, how was that?
It was so fun? Likes the dogs were playing in it.
They didn't notice those things. And then that intentional it
really helps people realize that. So I think that that
there's a power to what you're saying. Again, on both
sides of this sandwich, you know, it's them that's just Yeah,

(01:10:09):
what you just said is profoundly important. I think we're
in three relationships, whether we like it or not. We're
in a relationship with other people. Even if you're not
in a romantic relationship, you are in a relationship with
other people in life. You're in a relationship with yourself,
and you're in a relationship with life. And you have

(01:10:30):
to start seeing those things as real relationships. Right over Christmas,
you know, over the holidays. I on Christmas Day, you know,
everyone puts out Merry Christmas messages to everyone, And this Christmas,
I thought to myself, you know what people don't necessarily
say is who's having a complicated Christmas? And when you're

(01:10:52):
having a complicated Christmas? And it could be any day
of the year, but you feel it at a time
when there's a blueprint for how it's supposed to look
in our minds and life is like that, you think
that you can't be happy because of the circumstances. And
I am a big believer that there's a shift that

(01:11:13):
we can make. There are times in life where life
doesn't seem to be bringing us magic, and I truly
believe that we've found our power again when we decide
to make the pivot from being a seeker of magic
to be an author of magic. If we can be
on a tough day like that and go where I

(01:11:35):
can lead, I can lead. Maybe I was protecting my
family for the last twenty years and that family just
blew up and that was not the life I wanted. Well, okay,
now we have a different set of circumstances. But the
game is, how can you be the author of magic?
In those circumstances. And when you start thinking like that,
I really believe life changes and all your power comes

(01:11:57):
back to you, even in situations where you think you've
lost it. I work with people on how to navigate
really toxic relationships. It's grotesque guidance right there to change
your expectations, Like, if you're going to stay in this,
you're gonna have to disengage. They're not interested in you.
They are not going to pay attention to you. They
don't want to see all of you. So that means

(01:12:18):
we're going to teach you that this is who they are.
You're not going to be a surprise when they come
in and they do the same thing. And it means
you're also going to cultivate other spaces in your life.
But what happens when the expectations get ratcheted to reality,
it actually creates because all of human misery, to me,
is the gap between what we want and what really is.
The bigger that gap, the greater the misery. The more

(01:12:40):
you can narrow some of that. And it may be
that this is what I'm getting, and this is how
I can narrow that gap. I may not be unhappy
in this relationship. Then a person thinks, does that mean
I have to live in lowered expectations and perpetuity? Not
at all. Now is to say, if these are some
of my expectations, I'm going to take these to other
places in life. And that's none of this is easy.

(01:13:01):
I think that if I've learned one thing through our
conversation is that I think we want sort of like
the five tips five tips to find the guy of
my dreams or the gall of dreams, or my person
of my dreams. There are no five tips. This is work.
This is working on yourself. This is making yourself accountable
to you. This is about giving yourself permission to individuate,

(01:13:24):
to be autonomous, to honor yourself in any way you can.
This is about building yourself out first before you put
yourself in those situations, and then by building yourself out,
you can hold those standards. This is a process. There
is no pithy advice. There is no TikTok video that
in a minute and a half is going to tell

(01:13:44):
you how to find sustaining true love. But the reassuring
thing is that there are more ways for you to
be happy than the old you could ever have conceived of.
I love that, Matthew. I want people to be able
to find you. How can people find that magic? How

(01:14:06):
can people find Matthew Hussey. I don't need to tell you.
That means so much coming from you, So thank you. Instagram.
The Matthew Hussey is a good place to just keep
up with me if you just want to dip your
toe in the water, and if you want a deeper
journey with me. The thing that I have coming up
that is genuinely transformative in the sense that it truly
begins a new path for you. The virtual retreat that

(01:14:29):
I have is something you can do from anywhere in
the world. You don't have to fly anywhere. You can
do it from home, romany. You've kindly come to be
a guest speaker on that a couple of times, and
it's the deepest work I do with people. So if
you want to go through that process with me, MH.
Virtual retreat dot Com is the link. Great. We'll have
all of that in the notes. And Matthew has books.

(01:14:51):
But I have spoken at his retreats and I have
to say, having met your audience and everything, it is
so engaged. People are so present, tremendous community and I've
talked firsthand people in my life who didn't know we
were connected. I said, wait a minute, you're on his
And these are people who have said, you know, Matthew
has changed my life, and I'm so glad to hear this.

(01:15:11):
Someone I'm friends with that I care about has now
connected with him. So you're making real change in the
life of people I love dearly and who have some
of them have ended up in beautiful love stories and
some of them have just found ended up in beautiful places.
So thank you on their behalf. And again, thank you
for this conversation. I think it really has I love this.

(01:15:32):
The energy it brings to this is that I think
it gives hope to survivors. I think a lot of
us believe that we lost our chance to have our
love story when we went through a toxic relationship or relationships,
and that it's a reminder that having been through these
relationships not only doesn't steal your love story, it actually
going to be a lot richer than you think. So

(01:15:54):
there's hope for us. Thanks again, thanks for having me.
Thank you. Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Matthew. First,
stop trying to be a red flag detector or a
narcissism detective. Finding healthy love is more complicated than that.
When you focus all of your energy on collecting red flags,

(01:16:18):
you may miss the opportunity to be present, slow down,
and pay attention to how you feel rather than focusing
on their toxic quirks. This relates to a key element
of maintaining a healthy relationship, which is discernment. So it's
all about pacing. Matthew talks a lot about standards and

(01:16:43):
starting from a point of having what you want for
a relationship in mind, but a major issue for survivors
of narcissistic relationships is that these standards are not easy
to establish or even what a healthy relationship looks like.
Getting into a healthy relationship isn't about the aha moment

(01:17:06):
of figuring out that another person's behavior is narcissistic, but
rather learning and living into what constitutes acceptable behavior and
a healthy relationship. For this next takeaway, be open. This
may be half of the challenge, not just in life,

(01:17:28):
but also in relationships. Matthew talks about curiosity and openness
that things can be different. This approach can actually be
really useful for survivors of narcissistic relationships, and for people
who keep finding themselves in unhealthy relationships, curiosity is a

(01:17:51):
bit of a superpower. The willingness to consider doing things
differently merely asks us to just consider that there are
other ways out there. As Matthew suggests, once we recognize
that what we are doing is making us miserable, a

(01:18:11):
key to healing and moving forward is to also recognize
that there may be a better option. And this relates
to his guidance this idea of falling in love with
your plan B. Being open to a plan B is
also a stretch for survivors, but giving yourself permission to

(01:18:31):
even consider one and then allow yourself to love it
can give survivors their power back. In our next takeaway,
there are standards and there are tactics. This is an
important distinction that Matthew makes because so much of the
content out there on dating and relationships focuses on tactics. Well,

(01:18:55):
don't respond to a text right away or wait for
them to contact you kind of thing. Standards represent deeper work,
and for people who may have survived past toxic relationships,
are not easy work. It means recognition of what is
acceptable and making your choices accordingly, even if it feels uncomfortable.

(01:19:19):
In this next takeaway, one thing that really struck me
about this conversation, which is so important. Matthew emphasizes this
idea that it is okay to be unhappy without a label,
and this point is so important. In essence, he is saying,
let's stop making this about he is a narcissist, and

(01:19:41):
rather about this doesn't feel good, or I'm not enjoying this,
or merely that I'm not happy in this. Instead of
trying to validate an uncomfortable relationship by calling someone out
as narcissistic, it may be more useful to simply acknowledge,
give yourself permission to note that you aren't happy, and

(01:20:04):
then proceed from there. And for our final takeaway, maybe
the real work of dating is getting legs under the table,
which is the idea of creating stability by having lives
full of varied things that matter to us and strengthen
us meaning purpose, people and activities that matter social support.

(01:20:28):
More legs mean more stability, especially when we are trying
to navigate dating and relationships. I like Matthew's metaphor and
can see how the work of healing from narcissistic abuse
and moving forward into new relationships of any kind can
actually be the psychological carpentry of building those legs under

(01:20:53):
our table, creating whole, full lives and identities.

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Host

Dr. Ramini Durvasula

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Relationship Red Flags with Matthew Hussey