NXIVM Whistleblower w/ Sarah Edmondson Part 1

Sarah Edmondson was a young actress pursuing a career in film and television, when she hit a low point and was hoping to find a new purpose in life. She ran into renowned filmmaker, Mark Vicente, who spoke to her about NXIVM and eventually brought her into the organization. There she started following Keith Raniere and Nancy Salzman's mission. They encouraged Sarah to give her all. In part 1 of 2, we learn about how NXIVM's leadership undermined its followers and groomed them in such a conniving way, that no one knew what was happening to them. Sarah grew close to many members of the organization - which later turned out to be a cult, and even rose up in leadership. Listen to how Sarah's journey and newfound community helped her find a new meaning in life.

Host Information: 

Instagram: Dr Ramani's IG - @doctorramani

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Twitter: Dr Ramani's TW - @DoctorRamani 

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Guest Information:

Instagram: Sarah Edmondson’s IG - @sarahedmondson

Facebook: Sarah Edmondson’s FB - Sarah Edmondson 

Twitter: Sarah Edmondson’s TW - @sarahjedmondson 

Book: Scarred

Podcast: A Little Bit Culty 

Guest Bio: 

Sarah is a working actor and artist. She is known for her role in NXIVM; which initially intrigued her with its promise to provide the tools and insight she needed to reach her potential. It all came into focus when she accepted an invitation to join DOS, a “secret sisterhood” within NXIVM. It was a decision that resulted in a front page bombshell in the New York Times featuring her story as a woman on a mission to shut NXIVM down.

Sarah published Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult that Bound My Life. Sarah’s journey as a whistleblower has also been featured in “The Vow”, the critically acclaimed HBO documentary series. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This

(00:23):
episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people.
The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the
podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do
not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I
Heart Media, or their employees. But I had this group

(00:45):
of women and I was like, this is the thing
that we need. I haven't been able to help any
of us, are limiting beliefs in our stumbling blocks. I
felt very good about bringing what I learned to them.
And when I went to next M, I didn't know
about the financial all opportunity that was an offer to
me was this for my personal growth? And then once
I took it's like, oh, you can take it, and
you can bring two people and get your money back.

(01:06):
And if you're bring six people, you can can earn
a commission and that's how you can pay for your
next courses and it kind of built from there, and
then it was like, Wow, I can make more money
than I ever did in acting, and I can change
the world, and why wouldn't I get paid for helping
people grow? Every cult is a narcissistic relationship. Let's just
start there. Earlier this season, we talked with Mark Vicente

(01:28):
about his experience and Nexium, a self improvement program that
ended up being something far more sinister and harmful. Nexium,
like many cult like organizations, are often comprised of well
intentioned people who were drawn to the teachings of the
organization and who genuinely believed that they were making the
world a better place and experiencing meaningful change within themselves.

(01:53):
In the next two episodes, we are going to hear
from Sarah Edmondson, who played a central role in the
documentary The Vow as a whistleblower who facilitated the dismantling
of Nexium. Sarah was branded as part of Doss, as
in Sarah's skin was burned with a brand. Doss was

(02:16):
a sub organization within Nexium, and in the years that
would follow, teachings that she believed in, friendship, she trusted,
and her life's work for over twelve years was dismantled,
as well as having to live with a traumatic impact
of being a part of such an abusive organization. It
was gaslighting at the highest degree. Sarah also wrote a

(02:39):
memoir about her experience entitled Scarred, The True Story of
How I Escaped Nexium The Cult That Bound My Life,
and she and her husband Nippy also co host their
hit podcast A Little Bit Culty. In this episode, we
are going to hear the experience of Nexium from the
perspective of a woman who was in it and understand

(03:02):
how insidious and gradual the process of indoctrination can be,
whether you were in a cult or in any kind
of toxic relationship. Sarah, it's so wonderful to see you
and have you sitting right here. I've been on A
Little Bit Culty, which was one of my very most
favorite podcasts who have ever ever been on. I love

(03:24):
talking with you and Nippy and it was both fun
but also we were able to take it seriously. So
your your podcast is amazing. Your book that's called Scarred,
The True Story of How I Escaped Nexium The Cult
That Bound My Life. It's not the usual memoir I
think for us, we've all heard the story of Nexium.
We've heard it through the vow, we've heard it through

(03:45):
news reports. And I think I even approach your book
thinking I'm going to read this again, and then I
read it and it was absolutely extraordinary to me to
read your experience as a woman within a system like
this and so and we'll be revisiting parts of that.
But everyone needs to read this book if they have
any interesting coercive control, gas lighting, exploitation. Even if you've

(04:08):
never been near a cult interested in a cult. What
happened to all of you is something that happens in
any toxic system. It just happened to be organized in
that structure. So I can't tell you how happy I
am to have you here. Thank you, Thank you so
much for having me where I want to start with,
and almost start with what one of the critiques from
the world is and what you beautifully sort of lay

(04:30):
out in the book. So many people looked at the
story of Nexium and said, what were these people thinking?
What were they doing? Why were they spending all this
money on this um? Some people say, why didn't they
just get therapy? I mean, there were so many critiques leveled,
and when I read your book, I finally got it.
If you could break down for us this journey into

(04:52):
a system, because obviously you didn't sign up saying, oh,
exploitative organization, sign me up right right, But you're in
of shells on my body super you know, confuse me
and gaslight me and manipulate me and destroy my friend's lives.
That's what That's not what you wanted. Something drew you
into this and hooked you into this, And I would

(05:14):
argue there was a healthy and an unhealthy part of that.
Can we start with the healthy part of what drew
you into Nexium and what that part of your journey
was like? Absolutely? So the healthy part, I think comes
from my core values and a lot of that came
from my parents and how I was raised in terms

(05:34):
of wanting to leave the world a better place, and
you know, values around leadership and social change and justice
and those kinds of things and being part of a
community and meaning and purpose and those things that drove
me originally to become an actor, which was sort of
falling flat in my mid twenties as as a meaningful career.
So that was one thing that was going on my

(05:56):
boyfriend at the time. Now, keep in mind, is a
two thousand five, so this is not now the golden
age of cult awareness. This is a different era. It's
a lot of personal development. My parents were also in
the mental health field. My dad's a school counselor of
my mom's a therapist. I've always been a seeker. I've
always been interested in workshops and bettering myself. And I
was doing the artist way at the time, and and
trying to be more creative and have the life that

(06:18):
I wanted. All those things, and I my boyfriend and
I met Mark Vicente, who I know, you know what.
I met him at a film festival and I had
seen What the bleep Do We Know? And I felt
really moved by that film. I felt like this was
I wanted to make media that shifted consciousness. And so
when I when I had the opportunity to meet him

(06:39):
at this film festival, that was one of the things
that drew me in is this idea of being connected
with other spiritual people and doing something more meaningful. Ultimately,
what it was, I think the healthy part was being
a part of something bigger than myself, being a part
of this community of like minded humanitarians, which is hard
for me not to roll my eyes, knowing what I

(06:59):
know now, but putting myself back there, it's very idealistic
and I and I wanted to be aligned with somebody
like Mark. He was he was he was doing what
I wanted to do and invited me into the this
concept of this of this community, which sounded great. The
unhealthy part, If you mind me jumping to that, go ahead.
I think when I look, I've had to do a

(07:19):
lot of self reflection and I look back at my life.
I've always struggled to fit in. I was nerdy in
high school. I was never a popular kid. And like
the community is the positive way of saying it, but
like the night, a side is that like I wanted
belonging and wanted to feel also special. I think one
of the things that really hooked me was the once

(07:41):
I Once I did my first five day was this
idea of the stripe path and the martial arts system
of growth, which in the in the nature of acting,
where like you know, you can do all the things
and not get the part. Here's what was laid out
to me and promised to be a measurable system of
growth where you could do X y Z. You get
your ex stripe, you get your next promotion. And it
happened that way for a while, and I really it

(08:01):
did good things for my saying quotes because this is
a next um term. It helped me with my self esteem.
I know that's a word in English, but but it's
also like a big part of the foundational concepts. We're
trying to raise your self esteem and feel good about yourself,
not separate from whether or not you had the acting
job or not, like an internal sense of self esteem,
not esteem. And that was a good part of it,

(08:24):
but the bad part of it it was it tapped
into my my motivation to get to the next level
and like somehow that I would be better if I
got to the next thing, which was it just doesn't
and it's never ending, you know that. Of course, Yeah,
you can't graduate from these programs, which is you know,
obviously a huge red flag that I know now you
know one thing again, and having had the privilege of
reading the book was, for lack of a better term,

(08:46):
there was an almost obsessive zeal you were working. It
felt like around the clock. Yes, it wasn't just like
originally you went to their program. You know that market
introduced to you. You went to it, you found it
really beneficial because there was something interesting for you. You're
doing it and other areas of your life we're starting
to improve too. You were making money in a way

(09:06):
you hadn't before. You were feeling much, you were feeling
very aligned. That's the only way I could I could
put it. And you just worked and worked, and yet
at the same time you were working really hard, but
it also felt like, you know, you'd work hard just
to put it all back in. You'd make all this
money just to put it all back into start actually
really building out the programs in the Pacific Northwest and

(09:29):
in Vancouver where you lived, and so there was this
there's almost frenzied, obsessive feel to that was that who
you always were. Um, I think it's a tendency that
I think. There were so many naysayers around me saying
like what is this? And you were these people. It's
similar drive to what caused me to be an actor.

(09:51):
It's like I can prove myself, like I can do this.
I'm going to prove them wrong. You know, I'm the
only I was the only center owner that didn't come
from like millions. All the other center owners came from
people who had inherited wealth. So I was like, I
can do this, and it's almost like an underdog proving
themselves kind of thing. And then I get into a
frenzy to do that and work work, work, work work,

(10:13):
And that's definitely was a major problem because I was
so overworked. I didn't see the red flags Sarah's experience
of this obsessive zeal working all the time. While it
happened for her in an organizational setting, this is something
that also happens in red flag filled narcissistic relationships. People

(10:34):
want to make these relationships keep working, They want to
prove themselves, keep the good days going, and there's almost
a frenzy. People can have a sort of I am
going to make this work, even if I have to
put in super human effort. Right, And though the overworking
was almost normalized, there's certainly no one around you in

(10:57):
the Nexium organization telling you to engage inself care. If
anything that would have been indulgent, right, that would have
exactly that would have been indulgent. And it was any
time you would do anything, And that was the languaging
of Nexium was so interesting. Any time you would do
something to individuate right to be to sort of do
what was right for you, even if you were still

(11:18):
adhering to a lot of what they were teaching you.
Anything that was about Sarah and not Sarah embedded within
the organization, that would be shamed using all kinds of
technical terminology. Always, and it was very subtle and tacit
and gentle. It wasn't overt and angry and punishing. It
would be something like, if I was gonna go to

(11:39):
let's say she was the best my best friend's wedding.
When I was choosing between going to her wedding and
attending an e M tech training that I needed to
get to Procter, they would say something like, well, so
you're choosing a relationship with someone who doesn't even support
your growth over your actual growth. Or when they tried
to get me and moved to Albany over and over
and over again, I loved my home in Vancouver, and

(11:59):
it's at your attachment. Can you see how your attachment
to materialism and comfort is stopping you from your your
true growth thro your true potential. Like it would be
a very gentle, loving tone not not angry, so I
thought I was being supported. I just wanted to make
everyone clear on what an e M is. Sarah's using

(12:22):
the term e M, which is a nexium term which
stands for exploration of meaning moments where a person's motivations
were unpacked, and over time it became clear they were
unpacked in a rather shaming, gas lighting way. It's like
being in a group where if you did something that
the people in charge didn't like, they would subject the

(12:44):
person to this kind of a process. Did it ever
start to strike you as these incidents piled up when
you were still in sort of the heyday of actually
appreciating what was happening in nexium that every one of
these suggestions, you're choosing someone who doesn't your growth you are,
you know, you don't want to move here and have
your true potential, That the outcome of every one of

(13:05):
those decisions that they were pushing for would benefit them.
It didn't know because it's so much of the mission.
And it's even in the video of the last episode
where Nancy says this is a mission. It's not you're
dedicating yourself to Keith or dedicat yourself to Nacy. This
is a commitment to you and your growth. So that
was the premise. ESP is not for anyone else, It's
for you. I mean, trying to wrap my head around

(13:26):
it now, it's obviously makes no sense. The mission was
your growth. Here Sarah uses the term e s P,
which stands for Executive Success Program. Nobody just opens a
cult in an office park one day. The Executive Success
Program was a program and curriculum that Keith Rniery and

(13:48):
Nancy Salzman were peddling as a program to tap and
harness the potential within people, and that would call people
out on the thoughts and beliefs that were blocking them
from success. E SP is what Sarah signed up for
with a goal of personal development and growth right your
your growth, and it's it's it is really interesting, it

(14:11):
is It is a really mind efford because they were
almost selling individuation when they were doing the opposite. Because
what we know in any narcissistic structure, and whether that's
a family, whether that's a couple, whether that's a workplace,
and whether that's an organization like you were in the
goal when we're trying to help someone grow out of

(14:32):
that space and heal is to foster individuation a self
outside of that, and that you can have a relationship
with someone but not subjugate yourself. That's that's that's sort
of a core principle there, right, And nextium found a
really really kind of well marketed, slick way of subjugation,
which I've actually never really seen done so skillfully in

(14:54):
my career. It's so ironic because this is actually a
module that they taught is going from independence interdependence, looking
at the child's parent relationship and I'm sure as a
model he's stole from somewhere. Yeah, I don't know where,
it's not his. And they really did talk about how
it was really not good to be dependent on anything,
even to the point of like that's why we didn't

(15:14):
drink or do drugs. There was one inconsistency that I
saw throughout is that Nancy was super dependent on coffee.
And they called her the energy jazzer by the mean,
and she got she I mean, she was our role
model for that frenzy as well that she was go go, go,
go gole never rest. And that was one of the
very first sort of AHAs as I as I escaped,
where I recognized that was a huge inconsistency is that

(15:36):
we weren't supposed to be dependent on anything outside of
ourselves to be happy, Like that's an attachment. You have
to work your attachments. But we're all totally dependent on
the organization and on the ownership dirt decisions. And I
see that clearly with the people who are still loyal.
For your listeners who don't know this, there are still
people that follow Keith. They're like just drowned. They don't
know what to do with themselves because they don't they're

(15:57):
they have nothing to plug into, and they're just correct
right their dependency, and and they're holding onto it and
won't let it go. What you're talking about is the
dependency on something outside of someone that is excessive and
that one derives their self esteem from and are incapable
of holding space for other perspectives and seeing themselves as

(16:19):
an individual out of there. A lot of that is
a definition of codependency, where the self esteem is completely
linked into a structure outside of someone. So what you
know next Singing was preaching simultaneously was codependency and independence,
which are completely incompatible states. So there was a chronic
state of confusion, yes for anyone, for anyone that that

(16:40):
was confusing. And the other majorly confusing part was that
it was a success program. I didn't join next thing
and I joined executive success programs. And the whole idea
was as a goals program to help you achieve what
you want to achieve in the world. We had these
classes about your infinity goals and your long term goals
and your short term goals, and I was achieving them,
but then it was also getting in trouble for having

(17:01):
these attachments. And I couldn't wrap my head around like
all the people that were around Keith seemed to have
given up their goals and their attachments and now we're
living in Albany and seemed really miserable and thin, and
I just didn't understand like, And I think that's actually
what saved me, is that I refused to give up
my goals and I always had one foot out in reality.

(17:22):
Isolation is an essential dynamic in all toxic relationships, whether
it is an organization or program or an individual. The
framing is often you are too attached to other things,
other people, and the person is left feeling that the
only way forward is to detach from important relationships outside

(17:44):
of the toxic structure. Isolation is necessary if a person
or a group is going to try to control another person,
and ESP and Nexium were framing these as attachments that
needed to be rejected, and then real commitment meant that
you moved to their center of operations in Albany, isolating

(18:05):
people further Sarah's resistance to this is a major protective
factor that did save you is that you know you
did have that foot in reality. By your own description,
you said, you've come from a happy family, respected your parents,
you admire your parents. That that helps, Yes, that definitely
creates a sort of one piece of resilience bedrock, even

(18:26):
when this stuff is floating around you. And you went in,
and I think that this is what's important for listeners
to hear, you went in motivated by personal growth. That
was the motivation, and community and meaning and purpose. Those
are what any therapist would be sort of extolling as
virtues for an individual. So it's not some sort of

(18:48):
sinister vision that was bringing you, or it sounds like
anybody into executive success programs. They were just they were
they were trying to better themselves and they seemed like
a way to do that. And that's understandable. How did
you view Keith FORNERI when you met him, because I
think that he's such a central figure in this and
when we heard Mark Vicente, like you said, it's been

(19:10):
on this podcast, the reaction and the interaction with this
man is going to be very different. And I want
to hear from a woman who's had an interaction with
this man, because I found him repulsive in every way,
shape and form, from every photo to every word to
the sound of his voice. Obviously I had already heard

(19:30):
the story, but from the beginning you come into executive
success programs, Marcus saying that it's really you know, it's
helped him, you admired him. You come in, What was
that first exposure to this man? Like? So the first
exposure and I listen, my my arc with Keith changed
a lot over the twelve years, but my first exposure

(19:51):
was after I had taken a five day in Vancouver
and then eleven day in Albany, where before and after
every class we're saying thank you van Guard, thank you Vanguard.
And the women who am I grow to respect are
what we call like the Greek chorus. They're singing his praises,
they're putting him on a pedestal talking about this how
this man changed our lives. And by the time I

(20:11):
finished that curriculum, I mean, I was hooked into the
concepts that we're being sold to me. I was, I was,
this is what I wanted to do, and I wanted
to bring it to Canada. I totally respected this man
before I even met him, is in terms of this
is the brain that created this technology quote unquote. But
when I met him, I definitely was very underwhelmed. I

(20:33):
thought he was schlubby and not put together. I'm a
put together person to the point of being like borderline
O C D, you know what I mean, And so
I'm looking at him going. But any time there was
a forum where Keith spoke for the first time to
new people, like a Vanguard Week or if they're look
he did something of volleyball, Nancy would always debrief the
forum and she would always say, wasn't he amazing? You know,

(20:57):
wasn't he just incredible? And somebody knew would put up
their hand and say, it's so weird because like he
just seems so normal, like it just seems like a
just a guy, and she would spin that as it
is that incredible, that he just brings himself to our
level and makes himself so accessible. That was the spin.

(21:18):
He is a genius, but he's just a volleyball playing nerd,
you know, the sort of humble thing. Yes, And I
was actually struck, you know, even when Mark said he's
the smartest guy. And I've listened to a lot of
him trying to understand this and kind of underwhelmed, like
I don't think he was saying seemed particularly smart, Like
I think a really solid second year grad student would

(21:38):
know that. I think like I haven't seen anything in
any of the documentaries that would show like the full
two hour forum, right, so that would be boring for everybody.
But there were times when a form would lay out
a bunch of concepts that seemed profound, and a lot
of it seemed like was over my head. But everyone
else is smiling and nodding, So I'm thinking I'm not
smart enough for this, or I'm missing it. I found

(22:00):
out later that most people felt the same way because
it was a word salad, and word salad is a
classical tool of anybody who actually doesn't know what they're
talking about, but grandiose sleep must believe there are some
sort of genius or messiah or whatever they believe or
as it were, vanguard. Did that? Did that set off
any red flags for you that have to call another

(22:21):
human being by some sort of bizarre title sent I mean,
all the things that happened in day one of the
five day calling a vanguard, wearing sashes, bowing all the
rules and rituals were massive red flags for me. But
they had very smartly said right from the beginning, you're
here to work. You're here to work your stuff. That's
going to be uncomfortable. You agree when you were when

(22:41):
you're working on your issues at something. We all agree, yes,
all successful people I want to know their limitations. Yes
we agree. So we've agreed to be that successful people
know their limitations. We've agreed that our limitations are going
to be uncomfortable, and we're gonna feel uncomfortable. So when
we're uncomfortable we have the urge to leave, we agree
to stay in the room and talk it through with
a coach. So from the beginning, I'm agreeing to ignore

(23:03):
my red flags because I'm a successful person and I
want I want to work through my issues. So when
I'm feeling like that, We're calling this guy vangor that
I've never met, and then they say something before I
can even put in my hand. Some people feel uncomfortable
with this if they have suppressive tendencies or if they
have some authority issues. So then I don't want to
put in my hand and admit that I'm now a
suppressive person. All I know is that I want to

(23:25):
be a good girl, which is also one of my
unhealthy traits. Right, I've learned about myself that I'm outwardly
obedient and inwardly disobedient, and and now I'm I'm not.
I'm not a sheep anymore, and which is That's been
a big part of my healing journey. But at this time,
there's nine people in our class. This is not a

(23:45):
person seminars nine students and probably just as many, if
not more coaches. So we were being washed. We're like
everyone's looking at her every move. I'm not going to
be like, what's with the sash craziness? Like I'm like,
uh okay. One of the things I said also is
when you go to someone's home and they asked you
take off your shoes, you take off your shoes because

(24:06):
it's their home. And there are a lot of the
a lot of the rules were pitched that way, like
this is what we do here, just for five days,
you wear a sash, we bow to this person. Okay,
I'll follow your rules, you know what I mean, Like
it's it's not forever. It's interesting you made you made
a comment early on because I just connected those dots
here too, is that as we again you're right, as
we look at this through the you know, through the

(24:29):
lens of everything that happened, you know, the idea of
vanguards and bowing and sashes and all of that, we
can see it for all the you know, the terrible
things that it is. But you had even said that
in some ways sort of the system of stripes and
everything was resident of martial arts. So too is bowing
and sashes and belts and so I mean, they were

(24:50):
taking some of the iconography of something that actually has
a lot of respect, and rightfully so, martial arts is
actually a place of tremendous sort of focus and discipline
in and of itself, is actually a really great mindfulness tool,
confidence building tool. So one would say, see that the
idea of bowing to someone is built into another practice

(25:12):
and so each one of these things that could feel troubling,
just like in any toxic relationship, could rather quickly be justified.
Sense of and in fact and in fact, I want
to come back, I don't want to jump around too much,
but you said, you know, one thing you had said
about anyone who spoke, who provided a critique was shut

(25:35):
down as being someone who is suppressive. That to me
was the ultimate grooming technique, because what they were doing
was they were creating this homogeneity because nobody wanted to
be out it right. The whole idea was to belong,
and so ostracism was going to sting even more in
an organization like this. And ostracism is actually one of

(25:56):
the greatest human fears there is because once upon a
time in human history, to be ostracized would have been
to starve to death, you know, because you needed your
community to eat and all of that. So it still
remains a primal fear. So by calling people suppressive, when
I heard that over and over, not just in the vow,
but in your book and anything else I've read, I thought,

(26:17):
isn't this interesting because this happens in narcissistic families all
the time. If anybody speaks out or speaks up against
something that doesn't feel right. That child or adolescent and
even adult in those family systems is told they're ungrateful,
that they're they're a problem, that they're breaking with tradition,

(26:39):
they're not you know, all the things that a family
would do to keep everybody in line, rather than celebrating
that someone's either an individual or maybe making a really
good point. And so that concept kept coming up over
and over again, and you bring up something that you know,
we often talk about grooming in line with narcissistic relationships

(26:59):
and toxic relationships. What we don't talk enough about is screening,
and that's a lot of what the early phase of
these relationships is. In many ways, what they're trying to
do is it's almost like sort of you know, casing
the joint or sort of shaking down a mark, like ken,
is this a person I can hustle? Right? Am I
going to be able to get the money out of them?
It's no different than anyone who's walking down the street

(27:20):
and they're playing tea with three card monty, who really
stops to play that game? That person is already a sucker, right.
They think they can beat the game, And so I
think that there's this screening process that happens in any
of these toxic relationships of if we're already getting them
to suspend their incredulity to say, okay, I can work

(27:41):
with this whole Sash and Vanguard thing. They're screening people,
and I have to wonder if some of those early
days weren't these screens as it were, and that you
were almost sifting and then some people would say, oh,
heck no, I mean level screens. You know. They might
even say, and this is interesting because in Keith's history,
he had a history of multi level marketing. They might

(28:03):
even say this feels pyramid E today. You know, and
you were doing, you were having to you were told
you had to bring new people in. And any time
I hear about somebody being told they have to bring
new people and I'm like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. MLM,
which totally we've had reverted Levin's on this podcast. So
I know you know as well that idea of recruitment

(28:23):
to me, and we know MLM structures and cult structures
are quite similar. My session with Sarah will continue after
this break. How did it feel for you having to
recruit people and did you believe in it so much
or did you want it to work that you're like,
I'm going to do the thing they're asking so I

(28:44):
can continue ascending into this program. Unfortunately, that was a
really natural fit for me. I've always I've always been
somebody who brought people along on whatever it was I
was doing. I was good at sales from a young age,
whether it's a garage sales when I was young, and
then like selling candy bars in Greade ten to raise
money for the new TV. I was always I don't

(29:04):
know if it was my network or just how I
am I when I believe in something, and even what
I'm doing right now with the podcast and like being
a advocate for cult recovery, like I the loyalist right now,
who are still loyal to Keith. I shouldn't have watched,
but I watched one of their YouTube responses, and I'm
going to send you the lad because it will blow
your mind. One of the things is that they've said,

(29:25):
you know, Sarah was a good salesperson building it. She's
a good salesperson now with this with this narrative, like there,
the whole thing is, this is Sarah mun Sin's a narrative,
by the way, giving me a lot of potency because
let's just say I'm making it up. You know, I
did it for the book deal, as they said, what
about all the other women and the other thing. I
don't think I brought I did this in the book
because I have still have a family member involved. But

(29:47):
before did next Um, I was prepherbal to an MLM
that my mom had signed me up in. I'm more
I'm more public about it now because I just feel
like it's it's weird to not disclose it. And I
did okay in it, but I'd already learned about like
how to recruit and it was a similar structure. You
bring two people in and you train them to bring
two people in, and it was like a vitamin thing.
So I've already gone through some of that sales training.

(30:08):
So that in combination with me being so zealous about
whatever I'm into. Plus I had that women's group that
I was doing the artist way with and I was
trying to I'm not a therapist, but like you know,
my parents are, so I'm always trying to help people
and counsel people casually in a way that many people
find annoying some people find helpful. I've learned to ask,

(30:29):
now would you like my advice or would you like
to me just just listen? But I had this group
of women and I was like, this is this is
the thing that we need, Like I haven't been able
to help any of us through our limiting beliefs, in
our stuffling blocks. I felt very good about bringing this
what I learned to them. And you know when I
went to next UM, I didn't know about the financial

(30:49):
opportunity or like that wasn't that was an offer to me?
Was this for my personal growth? And then once I
took it, like, oh, you can take it and you
can bring two people and get your money back, and
if you bring six people, you can earn a commission
and that's how you can pay for your next courses.
And it kind of built from there and then it
was like, wow, I can make more money than I
ever did in acting, and I can change the world,
and why wouldn't I get paid for helping people grow?

(31:10):
Like it was you know I had some challenges along
the way, but if I did, I'd just get them
M which is your exploration? That was next point? Is
these E M s? This idea of exploration of meaning
and this idea that it's your why. They were constantly
making you look for your why. Not necessarily a bad thing,
except the e M s were only applied when you

(31:31):
were doing something that was raising friction. It seemed like
with the organization, when you weren't complying, when you weren't
moving the way they wanted, it seems like that's when
there would be a push. They could be used that way,
but they started in the five Day the way the
way it was originally presented. As you came to the
five day with like, you know, what are your goals?
And I want to be a better actress and I
want to have a better relationship with my partner, and

(31:53):
you you presented two things Stimus responses that you were
challenged by, and one of them that I presented was
my ex boyfriend leaving dishes in the sink and basically
like anything that exposed my my pseudo CD right and
feeling angry that this control issues right. So my first
e M was unhooking the stimulus the dishes to my response.
So and then I've I feel like I don't react

(32:16):
to that anymore. What A what A? What a relief. Right,
So now I have this impression that I can work
through any reaction I have. So if I'm upset about
something and e M is then applied to work through
my reaction, not there's a problem with the thing that
I'm upset with, That's what I'm saying. And that can
over time cultivate a lot of self doubt, yes, and
it destroyted view of the world. So you're in it.

(32:37):
Let me go back for one minute, because I think
red flags or early signs are so important. If you
were to sort of say, what were the first few
red flags that you saw that that you still pushed beyond,
But what were the red flags that now you say
that really was that was the thing? And this is
such a good question. And I wish that I had

(33:01):
the education I have now back then, because obviously it
would have made very different decisions. But the very first
red flag was the pressure to even sign up when
I met Mark, And it wasn't him, because he wasn't
a salesperson yet. It was somebody else who was running
around with an application and saying, you know, you gotta
get your forty eight hour discount. Knowing what I know now,
I would say I feel like you're pressuring me, and

(33:23):
if I really want to do this, it'll still be
here down the road, you know. That's what I would say.
First red flag, then getting to the training. Even before
I got to the training, I tried to get my
money back because I changed my mind and I got
gaslet slash peer pressured, slash manipulated to believe that this
was like the only thing that was going to change
my life. Second red flag, third red flag, getting to

(33:43):
the training and all the things we've talked about, the
sashes edifying this this person I had never met. Nancy's
eyebrows and her bath and power suit, like just the
whole thing. I mean, I'm joking, but like the whole
thing was so cheesy. It was so tacky, and I
didn't like that it wasn't that was something I had
to like, overlook and overlook even for the twelve years
when I really loved it. I'd have to say to

(34:05):
people that there are some people I wouldn't even bring
in because I knew that they wouldn't be able to
look if I found it cheesy and tachi, they wouldn't
be able to see past it. So then I just
didn't even tell them, you know what I mean. So
those red flags to me are interesting because those are
almost what I would call life the red flags, And
what I mean by that is a high pressure sales technique.
You know, anyone's doing it that much of a high

(34:25):
pressure sale on you, it means you're probably paying too
much for something that isn't worth it, right, you know,
if the car guys chasing you around the dealership, I'm like, peace,
I could now I know what I'm dealing with, and
I'm going to be able to find this better, cheaper whatever.
So that was that sort of sales pressure thing. And
then it was sort of said the cheesy part, right,
like do I really want to be at this sort
of cheesy thing? When did the red flags for you

(34:48):
transform from these more sort of life red flags into
something that kind of left you more sort of unsettled
red flags? The red flags that kind of sit that
kind of give you that sort of feel a little
bit of a very uncomfortable maybe even hairs on the
back of your neck. Red flags. That's a good question.
I didn't get those. I didn't get those in the

(35:09):
five day early on. No, No, the things that were
more unsettling, I mean Albany in general, just the whole setting.
I intuitively felt I just never wanted to go. It
didn't like the area, like there was something about it. Oh,
and I forgot to mention because you asked me earlier
about Keith. I'm going to come back to that. I
want to. I just want to say something that I

(35:30):
forgot to say is that it also intuitively felt very
like I couldn't get close to him, like I didn't
want to. And and people I was like, well, you
know you're in town, why don't you the women around him,
why don't you ask Keith if he's available to go
for a walk. And like my thought was, what would
I say to him? Because you were also not supposed
to ask him for anything that you could ask someone
else or like Google, you know what I mean. You
don't want to waste his time. You only ask them

(35:51):
things that only he knows, So like I don't have
anything to and I kind of kept my distance. I
only had two private walks with him that I can
remember my whole twelve years there. I never let myself
get close to him. I didn't I didn't want to,
and and and in those times he gave me really
awful feedback that was super uncomfortable, so I never did
it again. There were red flags around my friend Nicki,

(36:14):
who's still loyal to Keith, I brought her in. So
I brought Nicky in and she moved to Albany, I
think within a couple of years, and I'm just remember thinking,
you why even Albany to go? Keith couldn't mentor me
and my acting career, and her career was already more
successful than mine was. So I was like, okay, you know.
And it wasn't until I came to visit later, maybe

(36:35):
even a year in, and I wanted to spend time
with her, and she said something like I can't because
I just need to be available for Keith, right, And
I was like, I had the hit, you know, when
you have a hit that someone's sleeping with somebody. But
then I dismissed it because a the age difference and
be look at Keith and see he's the and also

(36:56):
we've been told he was he was celibate, which is
obviously so ridiculous now since we know that he's a
sex addict. But that was like a oh, no, can
be you know. And I had that with other women
that I, and then I and then I remember asking
around and people being like, he's a very very intimate relationship.
He's mentoring people's intimate relationships, but he's celibate. So it's

(37:19):
just then I would see that a lot, and I
just assumed that that's how he worked with people. And
then later as time went on, as I asked more
questions to be like, how is that any anyone's business?
You know, and that sort of became the thing, like
it keeps private life. And then as I compartmentalized, so
there were things that were uncomfortable, but you were also
growing and so you're you're sort of growing within this organization,

(37:42):
you're succeeding. And also you're not in Albany, so you're
not sort of in the center storm of what we're
seeing in all these TV programs, which you feel if
you were in that day to day it would have
probably really unsettled you. But you're actually building out things
and running them in some ways the way you want
to run them. In Vancouver in the Northwest. Time goes on, though,

(38:04):
and you meet your husband even so, I mean, there's
wonderful things happening, and you're a mean person would be
your husband, and you get pregnant, and I have to say,
and I look at your story in many ways, I
think your pregnancy and your child is ultimately what saved you. Yeah,
you know, because it was there was to be no
other priority for you. And it was very striking to me, Sarah,

(38:28):
how children weren't built into that structure there that how
many people I watched it. I'm like, we're out the kids.
I have a mom. I'm a mom, right, so I'm
always like, I couldn't have gone to these things. I
have been running around off my kids and picking them
up from music practice and all of this. So but
I saw that, and I thought, that's very interesting to me,
because if somebody did have a child in any form
of a healthy way, that would have almost just pulled

(38:48):
them away from the orthodoxy of what this was. And
although Nancy Saltzman was a mother, she came into this
after her children were grown, and interestingly, he almost caught
her at a point where a woman is almost vulnerable again.
And though after your children sort of grow up and out,
you have a chance to sort of launch a second
phase of your life. And and so she was almost

(39:10):
caught in this second renaissance that a woman's life has
at that time. All of that said, can you share
with us what it was like at the point when
things start getting sort of dark? Because what to me
was always so compelling knowing Mark now is that Mark
brought you into something that was ultimately harmful. And I've

(39:30):
never quite understood how that might have affected your a
friendship between you because at one level you might say, Wow,
what did you get at me and get me into?
But you would sort of evolved so much in the process,
But it was really Mark and Bonnie who and you together?
It was like this, something is not right here? What
did things become like for you? Because basically what you
were doing? Just to give you context is how I

(39:52):
approached this. I tell people you never want to call
out a narcissist. Never. You don't go up to someone's
a YO you're narcissistic, or YO you're toxic. It's never
going to work out for your say, once you recognize this,
now you've got to run a ground game to give
yourself a chance to build boundaries, to start separating, ow disengage,

(40:14):
give yourself a safe space. You may not be able
to leave this relationship. And I'm not saying that that's
the right way, but you can't keep bringing your A
game to this and you cannot invest your identity into this,
no way, no how, that's the play. And so in
some ways what was happening is you were now sensing
alongside these other folks, this is not right, something is

(40:37):
not right. Talk to us about your life at that point.
So this would have been I mean, the last year
before I left, couple of years there were a lot
of things that were happening that I couldn't reconcile. And
I'm sure you've used this metaphor of metaphor before put
them on the shelf to shelve them. One of them
was that Keith had created this new company, Ultima, that

(41:00):
had like an acting program, the Source, the Knife, which
was for media, ethical media, a number of other companies,
and and to do that, he pulled basically my staff
from Vancouver, like eight percent of my staff to come
to Albany and build these new companies. And it was
an opportunity to for people to be entrepreneurs and be
mentored by Keith directly. Blah blah blah. That was a

(41:21):
very challenging for me. And you're you're right, I did
run my center the way that I wanted to. I'd
like to say that I took the good of it
and had this little community. Not to say that there
wasn't bad things, but ultimately I even got in trouble
by the way for Nancy who came once and she's like,
there's not enough tribute for Keith and I here. They're
they're not people. I don't even know who I am enough,

(41:41):
like she didn't she wasn't a doored enough. Yeah. So
like a lot of this stuff just wrabbed me the
wrong way, and I just stripped it my own way. Right.
So ultima was happening. I was helping to build it,
but kind of reluctantly and being like, okay, guys, if
you're gonna go to Albany, like make sure you get
it on paper what the contract is. Because I knew
many of them I lost forever. Some of them never
came back. Wow, and remember too, I mean, at one point,

(42:02):
I think it's important to make Jeffer and Sarah's for
many years you worked for free, Yes, for this program,
from like at least four and a half years. I mean,
there was lots of things I did for free and
lots of things I got really got paid really well for,
and a lot of that money went right back into
more trainings. And the center was incredibly expensive to run,
going back and forth Albany because as you know, I

(42:22):
never never moved there. But during this time I also
didn't stop getting paid for some of building some of
those things which didn't feel right. And when I voiced that,
I was told I was being entitled right, so, which
was one of the number one negative traits of being
a woman. So all of this in the backdrop is
s op is running in Janess's running. These are new curriculums.

(42:43):
There was like so much training to take. We had
to take us to take Jenness, we had to take
the source. I didn't take the knife because I just
didn't didn't want to. Also, I got I had the
excuse of my new baby to get me out of
things at this point. So there we was just things
I was shelving. There's too many curriculums. I wasn't getting paid.
You couldn't voice a complaint because now you're either not
only suppressive, but you're you're entitled right. So they're pathologizing

(43:09):
self advocacy. Yes, that's that's what's happening, and again classical play,
classically and the narcissistic relationship. If a person really tries
to fight for themselves, advocate for themselves, make a need known,
they work with the courage to make a need known.
They are told you're selfish, you're entitled, you're difficult, and that,

(43:31):
for many people is an instant shutdown. Yeah, so all
all of that was happening, and my priorities were being
shifted to my family, and I guess, like I I
didn't really even realize that I wasn't on board anymore
because I had such a big investment. You know, my
rent at the Center was like seven grand a month,
needs a lot of money. I was so disconnected from

(43:55):
those things, Like I always thought I was going to
be a life or an exime life or this is
the rest of my life. And I think that now
that I've seen the vow as Keith was ramping up
recognizing women would leave him, and he was ramping up
his own, um, you know, trying to lock down his
loyalty for for the women in his life and then
through them other women. So we always have a fresh

(44:15):
supply of women and powers. How I see it now,
that's when I got invited into dust. Okay, so that's
when you got invited to jos so before we get
into Doss, which is so so so dark. It's fascinating
to me all these names, Ultima s OP which is
Society of Protectors, Janess which stands for nothing and sounds

(44:35):
like a feminine hygiene product. And I believe that he
what we were told it came from the route where
like gynecology g U I N and then and then
it sounded too gynecological. I was like, so that he
made it Jane s janess like and the the nest
of the the woman. That's how it was. I was like, yeah,

(45:00):
meman in hygiene is what jumped out at me. But
like all these names, this is what you see though
in any kind of toxic organization, is this sort of
these these secret handshakes and names and anything that almost
isolates it rather than like a men's group or women's
empowerment group. No, no, no, it had to have all

(45:20):
these code names, which actually creates a very different kind
of and more intense kind of a buy in in
the sense that you're in something quote unquote special special. Now,
there was definitely the whole time. And this is something
that I'm sure you can see from a mile away
that I couldn't see at the time. It's just the
collective ego of the group, you know, the specialness, the
eliteness that we And this is something the humble pie

(45:42):
I've really had to eat in my healing journey is
I really was righteous. I really thought that I had
the only way we'd meet people who were successful in
the world. Like if I had met you ten years ago,
I would have wanted to connect with you and wanted
to recruit you and think that you were doing good things,
but that you really were limited because you weren't getting
to the root cause and only we got to the

(46:04):
root cause you were just putting band aids on things.
I thought that about everybody interesting, that they didn't know
what we know. In that way, you were a missionary.
I mean, that's that's what proselytizing. That's what it was
was proselytizing, always prosletizing. And that's like the biggest freedom
for me is to just to meet people now and
just to like be interested in them and not think

(46:24):
about what I wonder if they'd be more of a
jinas person or esp person like trying to think about what,
you know, what was wrong in their life that I
could then show them a way out right, which is
a precarious way to go through the world. And before
we talk about Dawson, I want to, you know, sort
of set up that piece of Nancy Salzman, her daughter,
Lauren Salzman. Yeah, Okay, they were very powerful people in

(46:46):
nexting and one could argue that Nancy was Keith's right
hand person, right and was the mother to Lauren Saltzman.
Obviously Nancy was older than Keith. Lauren was her daughter
younger and apparently brought into the organization and when she
was eighteen, and you and Lauren became very very close.
And I think Lauren, it's important just for us to
articulate that she was incredibly close to her. You wanted

(47:08):
to be in her good graces like you, It was
important to you, and you did build a friendship. And
then I think that really sets us up to talk
about Das because what does DAWs Stanford Dominus subsequently Dominus obsequius, serrium,
which sirium, yeah, which all of the names that we've

(47:29):
since found out is his own personal kind of joke
as well a god doss, he's a computer nerd from
the eighties, right, So that's it's multiple meanings. But let
me just to backtrack for a second about Lauren. I
thought that we were close, and now I know there's
this whole part. I always felt that there's a part
of her life I couldn't really you know, connect with her,
and now I know why. But ultimately, when you look
at how everyone was so adoring to Keiths and how

(47:51):
they worshiped him, I probably more was like that with
Nancy and Lauren. I totally had them both on a pedestal,
and Lauren and nance se were they were my guiding
light for who I wanted to be, and this was
like baked into the curriculum. It would always be things
like you know who who who has the traits that
you wish you could have, and what are those traits?

(48:12):
And you know, nurturing and helps others and all the
things that I was now I know, projecting myself and
my own values onto them. But they I thought were
my guiding principles. And so when when somebody like Lauren,
who by the way, is also the head of education,
so any promotion, anytime you're going to grow up the
stripe path has to go through her. She's she's the
guardian of those gates, so she's head of education. She's

(48:35):
also who I trusted with all my personal stuff, anything
was going on in my marriage. She knew me better
probably than anyone. I didn't know she was reporting to Keith,
but I found that out later. My session with Sarah
will continue after this break. So you and Lauren are
very close. She has a lot of decision making power

(48:57):
in the organization, especially about how people had aunts and
she approached you about something new. Can you tell us
how she approached you and how all of that unfolded,
because this was definitely the turning point. This was the
turning point. This would be January of seventeen, and she
came out to Vancouver to train a five day which
at her level was a very rare thing that would

(49:18):
only happen if I had what we called v I
P s, like some famous entrepreneur actor, than somebody like
Lauren or Nancy might train that that five days. So
the fact that she was coming out was exciting. I
didn't really know why. But when she got to Vancouver,
she said to me that she wanted to talk to
me about something. My first thought was that I was
in trouble, because that's normally how it started. And I

(49:42):
was going to get some feedback or something, and she's like,
no, no no, I want to I wanna tell you about something.
And then when we finally had a moment to ourselves,
she asked me how committed I was to my growth?
And I said, very committed. And to keep in mind,
this is at a time when I was feeling a
little stuck right and and disconnected from the communit and
I'm focusing my family but not ready to pull out.

(50:04):
My shelf hadn't broken yet. And she said, what are
you willing to do for your growth? And I said
something very similar to what I found out Lawrence said
to Keith in the Vow, the episode that focuses on her.
I realized that she had said to me pretty much
what Keith said to her, setting her up to basically
agree to do anything for her growth. She did that
to me, and then she said she wanted to invite

(50:27):
me to something, and she got very excited. She said,
you want to invite me to something that had helped
her more than anything that she'd ever done, including anything
and nexium and before I could hear about it to
give her collateral to make sure that I kept my
word or kept the secrets around what she was going
to tell me. Can you explain what collaterally and listen?
I understand going back to your very first common of

(50:48):
people saying like, why would people do that? Why would
why would she say yes that? Why would she give collateral?
Collateral had been normalized, had been a part of the
curriculum since where people had started to use collateral as
we were taught as a weight to our word. So
if I said I'm going to go to the gym
and I don't my collateral, something i'd put on the table,

(51:09):
say maybe when you give like five dollars to charity
or something like that. So there was like a wait
to my commitments, right, So it's not like it's not
like a swear jar, like I'm going to put a
dollar in a jar every time I say the effort,
in which case I'd probably just drop a twenty in
and let it rip. That's not a high stake you're saying,
like I don't go to the gym, it's five thousand dollars.

(51:29):
So much so that you'd say, oh, okay, I am
not not going to do this, Okay, so it's it's
a big buy in, but it's a big buyon. So
it was money, it was sometimes, it was money sometimes.
And then there was another concept introduced called penance. I
didn't realize because I wasn't raised religious, that this is
a religious concept. So people were doing things like they
collateralized their word with the penance, like having cold showers

(51:50):
for a week, or waking up at three am and
doing burpees in the snow like some painful thing. One
thing we talked about a lot next him is there's
a choice point in the choice between staying in bed
and being comfortable or getting up and doing what you
say you're going to do. In that choice point, you
have to weigh. And Nancy says this in the vow,
there's the ideology of who you are versus the comfort

(52:12):
of your body, and that's the struggle. So the idea
is the collateral would motivate you out of the discomfort
to do the right thing. So when she's saying, when
when Lauren is saying, I need you to collateralize this
new thing I want you to do, was it money?
Money was not an option? And like what like what
She's like, oh, you know, like a nude photo or

(52:33):
written confessional or I opted with written confessional as my
first collateral. So I I wrote, I Sarah Edmondson in
my twenties, blah blah blah, disclosed a bunch of things
that like I wouldn't want to be public. And she
took a photo of it. She sent it to somebody
and then said it's not bad enough, and I said,
I don't. I don't have a like I've been a

(52:54):
good girl, Like you know, I've dabbled in some recreational
drugs and you know, experiment was and things. But I
had to make it worse. So I exaggerated all the
things and said things that weren't true in a written
statement that she held, and that was enough collateral for
me to be invited into dous what's done with the collateral?
I understand that I don't go to the gym, I

(53:14):
have to pay a thousand dollars. Okay, that's me accountable
to me in some really intense, over the top way.
But now they have could be a naked picture, it
could be a confession. What is the implication of what's
going to be done with that collateral? Well, This is
where this is the problem with everything that's happened since

(53:36):
and people being loyal and even in the case, is
that they said, we're just going to hold this, We're
holding this to me for you, for you and your word.
But if you don't obviously that the implication there is,
if you don't hold your vow of secrecy, that will
be released. What's the point of giving collateral or giving
something to for somebody to hold to maintain a secret.

(53:57):
If that's the threat of release, isn't the holding it
there like otherwise? I take it? So it's coercion, So
collateralist coercid yes, okay, yeah, from now on, we can
call it coercion or blackmail. Yeah, it's I mean, it's extortion,
it's coercion. But what's happening is though it's an agreement
like you're blackmail is almost like an after the fact,

(54:17):
But they're saying from the jump, you're going to give
us this thing that we're going to imprison you with, yes,
And so it's making it look like I agreed to that, yes, exactly.
So I'm saying you can hold this to help me
keep my word that I'm never gonna release this information.
Because I trust you so much as my friends, like

(54:37):
the example of the Loyalists, give now. As I'm saying,
like I have trouble drinking and driving, can you hold
my keys, It's like I'm asking you for help here.
So that's that's that's the metaphor, which doesn't make sense,
but that's how they see it. The concept of collateral,
the way Lauren framed it for this Doss group, was
in essence, an attempt to make some one a collaborator

(55:01):
in their own extortion. It is a very transparent, in
your face form of manipulation that would result in a
sense of self blame and coercion. It means that after
this collateral is gathered, that none of the behavior that
follows it, nor is the giving of the collateral consensual.
People will obey whatever the demands of DOS are not

(55:24):
from a place of consent, but from a place of coercion,
with the fear that my collateral could be made public.
This form of psychological exploitation and manipulation is a severe
form of emotional abuse. So that's the first step, and
from that point she invites menta DOS. So you've done
your collateral, you've given it, you've made your confession story.

(55:46):
Confession story I love wasn't entirely true, respect you even more.
And then it made some standard standard. And then she
invites me into DOS and she lays out the points,
the first one being that it's a vow of obedience,
and so I'm vowing to be obedient to her and
her to her as my master. This is a master

(56:08):
slave relationship, which obviously my all the alarm balls are
going off, the biggest red flags I've ever had my
entire time. And she's saying, that's good. That means you're
doing it right, Like, this is supposed to be really uncomfortable,
because it's a big commitment. You should feel uncomfortable. What
I'm asking of you is a lot, and it's not
for everybody. When this concept of master enslavery to me,
slave is like it is a lightning rod word. You know,

(56:32):
it is the it's the it is the worst experience
of the humanization and degradation. Right even in the in
the curriculum, we talk about how slavery is bad and
people should have the right to the products of their
own efforts. And now we're using this word, and I'm
questioning this At this point, I feel like nothing you're
doing you're consenting too, because there's so much manipulation happening.
And talk about consent when it is because this idea

(56:54):
of you consented to give this collateral. Was this because
you inherently trusted Lauren? Yeah? Absolutely. If Alison Mack had
asked me this, I wouldn't even have said yes. I
didn't respect her in that way. And none of the
women actually except for Lauren. Wow, okay, so they knew
what they were doing. They say to be pulled in okay,
and that and I also later I found out was

(57:16):
done with me, like, oh, Sarah should be the one
to invite this person. No, No, like there was very
they were very strategic, but she was invited and by
who Yeah, okay, so now you are in this group.
She's using terminology like master and sla with a straight
face's do this. But also, like, remember when I talked
about how people taught rules and rituals and they'd be like, well,
so you know, there's the martial arts and it was

(57:37):
the same thing. Lauren was the best at teaching that module,
and she was the best at doing this because she
was like, you know, it's not really a master sly
because you're in Vancouver and I'm an albuddy. It's like
a guru disciple. Think of it as a heightened coaching
coaching relationship. So that was my hook. That was my
main reason for saying yes, is because Lauren is now
offering to personally mentor me, even though we're close. It

(57:58):
was very hard to get her time and I had
to pay her. It was and a M but that
was her rate. He three something. So if I had
wanted an EM from her and she's only one of
the only people I amed with, that was very expensive.
Now she's saying she's gonna personally mentor me, I call it.
Call it whatever you want. I'm master slave. Sure, I'll

(58:19):
be your slave. What do you want me to do
for you? Veronoa? Okay, Like I had no idea how
serious it was. It was it was an exercise that
she was mentoring me, taking me into her wing, and
we're gonna call it master slave. Okay. So how did
this play out? What did it mean to be her slave?
Other than having to give her a lot of money
to do these e m z s exploration I paid

(58:40):
her before, Like when I was in the context of
the of the structure of next time I would pay
to get an a M from her, but getting one
on one time with her even in trainings when I
went to Albany, like maybe I could carve out a
quick coffee break like she was always so busy. So
the fact that she's offering to mentor me on a
date and check in with me daily, I'm down. Okay.
Here are my takeaways from this conversation with Sarah. First,

(59:06):
Sarah was very clear that they were both healthy and
unhealthy aspects of herself that drew her into the situation
and dynamics at ESP and Nexium, and this is why
it is also complicated. The challenge with any narcissistic situation
is that there are elements that can be quite compelling

(59:27):
and that even play upon healthy parts of ourselves, and
yet simultaneously, neurotic fears such as not being good enough
wanting to fit in, can also lead us to shape
ourselves to fit these situations. We often want it to
be simple that people get into this merely because of

(59:49):
the unhealthy and neurotic parts of themselves. It's not that simple.
In my next takeaway, I had a rueful moment when
Sarah called this the Golden Age of cult awareness. I
think that's because it parallels what we are entering as
the Golden Age of narcissism awareness. She's right. Never before

(01:00:09):
have I seen so much content movies, streaming shows on
cults and cult like organizations. However, knowledge, while important, is
not enough. This Golden Age needs to be a wake
up call for people to do the deeper dive to
recognize the patterns, universal and personal vulnerabilities to these patterns,

(01:00:30):
and to stop falling into self doubt and disavowal of
intuition at these times. In individual relationships, this is hard enough.
In a cult, it can be downright impossible. Since there
are so many people aligned with the distorted and manipulative behavior.
The world still is drawn to the magnetic cults of personality.

(01:00:52):
We have to be willing to pull back the veil
and recognize that the emperor is not only wearing any clothes,
he may also be speaking in word salad. In this
next takeaway, self improvement organizations of all kinds raise concerns
about communal narcissism that a leader may be getting validation

(01:01:13):
just by holding onto the grandiose vision that they are
changing the world and actually having that grandiosity be emboldened
by students and followers who become devotees instead of collaborators.
Any time a person enters a community singularly identified with
an enigmatic leader who has been imbued with supposed virtues

(01:01:36):
like genius, the safest play maybe to walk away. But
if curiosity gets the best of you, then at least
make sure you know where the exits are and maintain
strong ties to people outside of the organization. It's quite
clear that Sarah's pregnancy and then baby gave her something
bigger than NEXI, M and E SP to focus on,

(01:01:59):
and that may very well have saved her. In our
last takeaway from part one, Sarah had a fascinating observation.
She said that within Nexium that self care was viewed
as indulgent. That's not an uncommon technique used by antagonistic
and narcissistic people to control a partner, family member, or

(01:02:19):
group member. One thing we know is that people in
narcissistic relationships are notorious for their lack of self care,
often neglecting medical care, rest other healthy routines, or pleasurable
interludes like getting a massage or sleeping in self flagellation

(01:02:40):
by collateralizing discomfort. Making people exercise in the snow, waking
up at all hours is a way to create a
sort of trauma bonded buy in. In every narcissistic relationship
I have ever witnessed, shaming of self care was a
common theme at the end of this episode, Sarah's faith

(01:03:01):
in the organization and in her relationships with some of
the folks she most admires and Nexium, such as Lauren Saltzman,
are being tested and significant doubt has crept in. However,
her belief in Lauren and the center Sarah has created
in Vancouver matter to her, so as she's being pulled
into the shadowy world of Doss, Sarah clearly recognizes that

(01:03:25):
something is not right, but years of being indoctrinated into
the social control and manipulation of the organization makes all
of this very confusing. Stay tuned for our next episode,
when Sarah shares how it all fell apart. A big
thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valen,

(01:03:48):
Jethro Ellen Rakaton and Dr Rominey Divassla, And thank you
to our producer Matthew Jones, Associate producer Mara Dela Rosa
and consultant Kelly Ebling and Fine Elie. Thank you to
our editors and sound engineers Devin Donaghy and Calvin Bailiff.

(01:04:10):
H