Q&A w/ Dr. Ramani: We Answer Your Burning Questions on Narcissism

We've received your questions and in this episode, Dr. Ramani answers some of the ones listeners have written in. Listen to this episode for even more insight and answers to topics surrounding narcissistic abuse.

Host Information: 

Instagram: Dr Ramani's IG - @doctorramani

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I want to hear from you, too. Have a toxic topic you want me to explore? Email me at [e-mail]  

I just might answer you questions on air. 

This podcast should not be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and/or therapy from a health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast.

Navigating Narcissism is produced by Red Table Talk Podcasts. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: Jada Pinkett-Smith, Fallon Jethroe, Ellen Rakieten, and Dr. Ramani Durvasula. Also, PRODUCER: Matthew Jones, ASSOCIATE PRODUCER: Mara De La Rosa. EDITORS AND AUDIO MIXERS: Devin Donaghy and Calvin Bailiff.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This

(00:23):
episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people.
The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the
podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do
not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I
Heart Media, or their employees. Hey everyone, So I had

(00:47):
learned that Miriam Webster made gas slighting the word of
the year for two thousand twenty two, and just so
you know, in two thousand nineteen it was toxic. So
there's something happening out there. I was both shocked, thrilled,
and a little concerned. Frankly, when I saw that was
the word of the year, I was happy because finally,

(01:10):
what we're seeing is that people are starting to get
educated about these patterns. And sometimes when you have a
word for something and you realize that it's a thing,
you're in a better position to cope with it and
not think that you're the only one. So that part
made me happy. The part that gave me concern is
that not everybody understands it. Gas Lighting isn't just somebody saying, gut,

(01:31):
never happened. That's sort of like it's taking a really
subtle concept and making it simple. Gas Lighting is a
is a much more complex process. It requires that you
have trust in someone or you believe in their expertise.
For example, would have to be like a partner or
a family member, a close friend, or someone you're turning
to for their expertise. Yes, the first step is that

(01:52):
they do deny your reality, perception or experience, deny that
something happened, or deny that you remembered something pro really,
but the next piece is essential and required for it
to be gas lighting, which is then then the person
goes to the next step and says, there's something wrong
with you, what's wrong with your mind? You seem real paranoid,

(02:14):
you're off, my gosh, you're so sensitive, so much drama
with you, You're so emotional. You see that step, It
goes just beyond saying that didn't happen. It's them saying
that didn't happen, and there's something wrong with you. Gas
Lighting is not a one off. It happens over and
over and over again in a relationship, and the challenges

(02:35):
if you keep hearing not only your reality is wrong,
or reality that you perceive is wrong, or experience you
had never happened, and then you keep being told there's
something wrong with you. That accumulates over time, especially if
you don't understand what it is. If it's happened in
other areas of your life, it feels plausible. Most people

(02:57):
then turn to self blame, and if it happens long enough,
at the end of this cycle, what we see is
a person who is actually completely imprisoned by the gas
lighter and just simply agrees with them on everything, and
to the world, what it looks like is that the
person standing next to that gas lighter is in full
agreement with them. That's where we see things develop like

(03:20):
cult like structures or even cult like families, where nobody's
in disagreement and it really does feel that there's no
reality allowed except for the gas lighters. So I think
it's amazing that it's there. I think it's important you
understand it the way I said it. But my concern though,
too is that as words become the word of the
year toxic and this year gaslight, is that we might

(03:43):
sort of start losing the power of the word. Everybody
out there is putting it up on their big Talk,
on their Instagram, and many times they're not using it correctly.
And what it means is that if we cheapen or
weaken this word or don't use it correct glee the
people who really are being gaslighted, and gaslighting is in

(04:04):
fact emotional abuse that can do some real psychological harm
to a person that over time, what this can do
to a person is really nefarious. So making it seem
like it's just sort of like a lie or a
disagreement or a difference of opinion is where we miss something. However,
when Miriam Webster decided to make this their word of
the year, it's not likely they were thinking about what

(04:25):
was happening just in individual relationships, but what's happening in
the world at large, with the media, with honestly even
governments at some level, political leaders often denying the reality
of people on the basis of all kinds of things,
people from any kind of group that doesn't have power
in society, whether that's on the basis of ethnicity or

(04:48):
gender identity, or sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, pick something. And
these groups who often don't have the same kind of
societal power are the ones who are most likely to
be gaslighted by the very institutions and platforms that are
allegedly supposed to be telling them the truth. So all
of that said, whether gas lighting is happening to you

(05:09):
in an individual relationship with somebody you care about, or
whether it's happening to you every time you look at
your social media feed or every time you look at
the news, for this word to have been chosen means
that it's taking a toll and finally getting the notice
that I actually think this phenomenon needs. But make sure
that you understand it correctly. And I really want to
thank all of you for listening to Navigating narcissism, and

(05:32):
it's my pleasure for once to actually be answering everyone
else's questions about this. And so now we're going to
take on some of the questions that people have been
sending to us all season, not just about gas lighting,
but about anything else you can think about that relates
to narcissism and narcissistic relationships. So in our first question,

(05:54):
going to take on something that we actually haven't taken
on in an episode of Navigating Narcissism, We're going to
talk about narcissistic siblings. The person who's writing is writing
about a narcissistic sister who has been taking advantage of
aging parents and makes her family feel bad whenever she

(06:15):
doesn't get her way, which is exactly what we would
expect of a narcissistic person in a family system. The
person who sent in this question only has this one sister,
but her sister has always targeted her and turns her
into a villain of every story. Her sister has a son,
the only grandchild in their small family, and she uses

(06:36):
that son as a tool and a weapon. The person
asking this question wants advice on how to deal with
narcissistic siblings. There are a lot of stories out there
about narcissistic relationships, but not a lot on siblings, so
any insight would be appreciated. I'm so glad this person
sent in this question because the power of narcissistic siblings

(07:00):
actually may represent one of the most powerful relationships and
the most impactful relationships a person can have with a
narcissistic person. There can be so much grief that's created
by having a narcissistic sibling. There may very well have
been a point in time and you can look back
at old family photographs that this may very well have

(07:21):
been someone you were sitting in the bath with or having,
you know, snuggling in bedwidth or at your birthday parties
and holidays. They're part of your history. And yet it's
quite often the case that people who have narcissistic siblings
will say, even back then, there was trouble in paradise
because so many people who come from family systems where

(07:42):
they have a narcissistic sibling will have a recollection that
in some cases their sibling was frankly bullying them, may
have even been manipulative, or might even have those sorts
of dichotomyes where the narcissistic sibling might have been the
favorite child or their golden child or something like that.
But whatever those early dynamics are, when they start creeping

(08:03):
into adulthood, things get messy. If we really fast forward
to later in life when parents are getting older, there
might be issues around estates, wills, trusts, or even who's
going to take care of those parents. I can tell
you this, A narcissistic sibling or siblings will have no
problem expecting that one sibling is going to step in

(08:27):
and do all the heavy lifting and navigation of caring
for elderly parents. But when it comes time to divide
the pie of an estate, I can promise you those
narcissistic siblings will be the first ones at the trough.
And the other thing to keep in mind, too, is
that the narcissistic siblings may only start rolling around when
control over a parent's affairs really starts to matter. And

(08:51):
this is no joke. I have seen people say that
they had to spend years in courts trying to fight
all kinds of things and power of attorney and poor
healthcare decision. This is a very, very real issue, and
I think a lot of people soft pedal at thinking
I'll deal with it when it comes. When it comes,
it can actually be quite tragic. But before all of

(09:13):
that happens, there are numerous other ways that a narcissistic
sibling can show up and really be a problem for
the other siblings or siblings in that system. Narcissistic siblings
will continue to triangulate in the same way they did
when you were little kids. They need to be the
favorite child. They want to be the one who's viewed well.

(09:33):
But that's not enough for them. They also need the
other siblings to be viewed negatively. The person who wrote
the question is always turned as the villain so that
the narcissistic sibling can be the one that looks good.
And then there's this additional wrinkle of things like grandchildren
and nieces and nephews, which is not unusual for narcissistic
people in a family system. Whether the narcissistic siblings or

(09:56):
even the narcissistic siblings in law, may use children as
a tool as a weapon, not only to garner validation,
but also to punish people if you don't do exactly
what it is they want. So the question is how
do you deal with narcissistic siblings. Hate to tell you, folks,
it's exactly the same way you deal with all narcissistic people.

(10:21):
You start with basics, radical acceptance, realistic expectations. This person,
this sibling, who you've known since they were a small child,
is not going to change. You never want to call
them out. You do not want to say you're gas
lighting me. I think you're narcissistic. That's not only not
going to work, it's probably going to inflame the situation.

(10:44):
So it is about having those realistic expectations. But this
goes one step further. That radical acceptance and realistic expectations
has to take in your parents as well. It's not
clear from this person's question whether the parents or parents
are narcissistic. Does and seems so. They're not bringing that up,
but they are getting older and the narcissistic sister is

(11:04):
taking advantage of those parents. You are not going to
likely be the one who converts the parents. I have
worked with so many clients over the years who had
a narcissistic sibling, and I'll tell you the impacts I
saw were every bit as bad as I saw in
peoplehood narcissistic partners. And the mistake many of them made
was they went up to the parents. They didn't confront

(11:25):
the sibling, but they went to the parents and they say, hey, sister,
brother is so toxic? Is so? This is so that?
And in nine times out of ten, those parents defended
the toxic sibling and actually chastised the non narcissistic sibling
for saying such a thing. It's not a good play,

(11:46):
it doesn't work, and it often creates more chaos in
the family system. So number one are those realistic expectations.
It's not going to change. Miss person is not going
to come around. And so the tool I give almost
all survivors is that idea and that thing I've talked
about over and over again, don't go deep. What do

(12:07):
I mean by that? Deep stands for don't defend, don't engage,
don't explain, and don't personalize. Basically, don't go deep is
a fancy way of saying, don't get in the mud
with them. It's not going to work. So if you
do engage, or you do try to defend yourself in
an argument, you certainly have every right to, but know

(12:30):
where it's going to end up. It becomes about boundaries.
But it also becomes about another concept I talked about,
which is called true north. Seeing that grandchild or seeing
that niece nephew, how important is that and how important
is that to your parents? And how important is it
to you to make that possible for your parents. I
hate to say it, but it may very well be

(12:52):
when sister rolls around with the kid, and that's something
your parents want and it matters to them. You don't
have to be there. There may be grief around not
seeing the niece or nephew, or when they're there you
just sort of listen and you don't engage. None of
these are optimal solutions, I agree, and some people may
go the course of sadly, I'm gonna have to lose

(13:13):
the niece, the nephew whatever it is, and and the sister,
which you might be okay with, or I'm going to
grin and bear it so my parents can have the
sort of illusion that they do have that family for
a minute. But on a more serious note, where you
really want to keep your eye on the ball is
ongoing sort of planning around how your parents finances will

(13:33):
get managed as they get older. Because your sibling is
so manipulative, there is a real risk that she may
be financially advantaging the situation. It's not clear to me
if that's what's happening. Once again, where it gets tricky,
and I've seen this happen over and over in families
where the non narcissistic or healthier or more empathic sibling
tries to weigh in, even tries to get the parents

(13:57):
to speak with a trust attorney. They make sure that
their resources will carry them through to the end of
their lives, and the parents are often resistant to it,
feeling like, oh, we don't need people mucking around in
our finances. I trust you too, as my daughters, to
do this, And that can be a huge mistake that
you do want to make a real concerted effort to
do that, because if you wait too long and one

(14:19):
or both parents become incapacitated, your hands will be tied.
But in the interim before it gets that dire, it
is really about disengaging, practicing sometimes what we call low
contact or what Tina Swidden, who actually was a guest
on navigating narcissism, called yellow rocking, which is not just
being sort of flat, but actually having a little warmth

(14:42):
in your voice, gratitude and all the good manners that
we have, but still not over engaging, and a combination
of all that, which is really a rule book for
how to deal with any narcissist. May get you over
the hump with a sibling, but also to the person
who wrote this question, be prepared acared. If you really
do start detaching from your sister, you will not only

(15:04):
likely get pushed back from your parents, but even the
world at large, which still tends to view family estrangement
as a fault of the person who is deciding to
put boundaries up, rather than recognizing that this person was
probably in a situation that was really bad for them
and is making a decision to protect themselves and to

(15:26):
have to deal with that negativity and pushback often means
that tools like therapy and other supports become absolutely essential
as you navigate this narcissistic situation. So thank you for sharing.
None of this is easy, but I hope that you're
able to find a good place to land on that
feels okay for your parents, protects them in the long term,

(15:48):
but above all else also helps you feel better in
this situation. So with our next question, this person is
opening up without a doubt. I've been married to an
narcissist for fifteen years, so you can substitute however many
years that's been for you, five, ten, fifteen, fifties, sixty,

(16:09):
put your number in there. So this person's questions are,
is divorce the only option for someone in a relationship
like this? So let's take that question on first. No,
it's absolutely not a hallmark of my work is to
remind people that ending the relationship is just one of
many options. I recognize that issues around children, finances, culture, religion,

(16:37):
safety all play a role in how people decide on
whether or not to leave these relationships. But it isn't
all just that. Let's face it. I mean, for some folks,
they still love the person, like the good days are
really good, the sex is still really good. There's parts
of this that I like, and there's parts of this

(16:57):
that I hate, and it's so hard to reckon style.
That's actually where a lot of folks in these relationships are,
and yet they feel pressured to end it. Everyone said,
you're supposed to leave a narcissist, not necessarily, So that's
why the show is called Navigating Narcissism, not dumping narcissism,
because it really is about figuring out what works in

(17:18):
your life. There is no one size fits all, so
absolutely not, divorce is not the only option. Please keep
in mind, though, what I'm saying is taking into account
that there is no danger physical danger in this relationship,
that no one is being physically harmed or things like
that are happening. Obviously in those situations, far more serious
intervention needs to be happening. There's a whole slate of options,

(17:41):
and you know what, divorce maybe an option down the road.
I can't tell you how many folks I know who
say family court is a mess. There's no way I'm
doing joint custody. I need to be under the same
roof as my kids. So they tough it out and
their birthday present to themselves on the morning of their
child's eighteenth or they is to file for divorce because

(18:02):
no more custody issues. So people will handle this differently.
Next question this person is asking is I've come to
the conclusion that I cannot change him, But can I
change the way I think and relate to him? Absolutely?
But here's where I want to frame this. Don't make
it about I'm going to make all these changes in myself.

(18:24):
I'm going to change how I relate to him because
I don't want people to maintain those cycles of self
blame that are so classical in these relationships. The key
is beginning from recognizing no one is going to change
anyone else. But that doesn't mean you need to change
who you are. If anything, what it means is start
giving yourself permission to be yourself, because to be in

(18:47):
one of these relationships is basically like being hijacked. You
have to give up on you to keep that relationship afloat.
So let's not do that anymore. Now you might think, well,
they're not gonna like it if I'm being my real me.
They're not going to like it either way, so you
might as well give voice to your authentic self start
working on that. That's going to cause more arguments, no

(19:09):
two ways about it. Don't go deep, minimize your engagement,
don't get in the mud, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain,
but also don't personalize. Their behavior isn't about you. Anyone
in this marriage of this person would be enduring what
you're enduring. It's not a use thing, it's a them thing.
So you can, for example, recognize that you're not going

(19:32):
to get any emotional needs met in this relationship. You
can recognize that they are completely oblivious to your needs,
don't care and likely resent your needs. You're not going
to get any of that met here, that nothing you
do will ever feel like enough because they need what
they need when they need it. And short of you
waking up tomorrow morning and being a mind reader, which

(19:54):
I'm sure you already have been quite a bit in
the last fifteen years. The only way a narciss sistic
relationship could ever really work is if you could read
their minds anticipate their needs before they even had them,
then they would think you're perfect. That is not possible,
nor even if it was possible, a healthy way to

(20:17):
go through life, because basically you're living in psychological servitude
to them, and I cannot sign off on that. So
it's really understanding the unchangeability, not engaging with it, starting
to cultivate your own supports, and slowly and quietly starting
to give permission to the authentic parts of yourself. So

(20:38):
you're not always living in service to this person's needs
because frankly, they're not noticing yours and they don't care
about yours. So it's no longer letting them annex your soul.
So that's the change that would have to happen. Is
no longer thinking that this can improve, thinking that there
is a someday better, don't future your fake yourself. So

(21:01):
the third question this person asked, building on that, is
is it possible to stay with the narcissistic person and
remain healthy. My answer to that is ish many people stay.
If I were to estimate and spitball number, I'd say
that number is pretty close about fift of people stay.
For all the reasons I have listed, can you remain healthy?
And the reason I say ish is if you can

(21:24):
really ratchet your expectations, have that deep acceptance, grieve the
loss of what you know, recognizing that you're not going
to have a really connected, deep marriage, and the loss
of what that would be. Thinking of this life would
have been different with a different kind of marriage. You
just have to work that through. In the long term,

(21:44):
living with someone who never sees you, who never notices you,
who does not have empathy for you, you're on a
roller coaster of good, bad, up, down, sad, mad glad
kind of stuff that is not good for anyone in
the long term. It's almost like living with a smoker.
You're not going to die of lung cancer on day two,

(22:06):
but the accumulation of that over time, that second hand
smoke is going to make you sick. And so I
think that you can do things to up the probability
that you remain healthy again above all else, if you
do only one thing, that one thing is to cultivate
social support, have friends, be in therapy, be in a

(22:32):
support group, be in a class, anything where you have
voices in your life that are not gas lighting you,
that do see you, that you have relationships that are
reciprocal and compassionate and respectful. Those can be a hedge
against what is happening in your marriage. And I have

(22:53):
seen people who have actually really made a pretty healthy
horse race of it. But it requires doing, and that's work.
Once we get to a certain age, making friends gets harder,
but it doesn't make it any less important. You need
to do it. And then having routines touchstones that you have,
whether it's a walk you take each day or a

(23:14):
meditation you do each day. In meditation and mindfulness work
can also be quite useful, as well as using your
breath as a way to sort of self suze throughout
the day. Practicing self compassion is huge because we internalize
their toxic voices and talk to ourselves in a very
self judgmental way. Finding ways to practice self kindness and

(23:36):
feel less isolated and not let the thoughts that, oh
my god, this is my life, this is wretched, not
let that overwhelm us. All of those things Practicing that
sort of self compassion in many different ways can also
be a piece that allows you to be healthier. I
can't sugarcoat it. Staying in a relationship like this will

(23:57):
take a toll, but there are things you can do
to really act as a hedge and they'll go a
long way to helping you feel quite a bit more
sane in one of these relationships. And then the last question,
and I think many people listening will resonate to this
last question. Does it make me unhealthy to even consider
staying with someone that I know is toxic? It really

(24:19):
requires a careful analysis and a deep dive, ideally with
a therapist, but you know, with even if it's on
your own or with a really really skilled listening friend.
Is what is your why? Why are you staying in
this relationship? Is this about you believing you're going to
be able to change this person? Is this about future

(24:41):
faking when they retire, when we move, when we have
more money, when this, when that, those are concerns. If
it's a belief that you're going to go to therapy
and that because of how you change, it's going to
make the relationship better. Any decision that's based on an
idea that the relations and chip itself it's going to

(25:01):
improve is a risky way to make the decision to stay,
because it's it's a bad bet. But if you really
do do the critical analysis, and many people have, they
have said things like I have now looked at and
I'm seeing how family court is running. A person might,
for example, have a child with special needs and saying,
now this just child and their routines, I need to

(25:23):
oversee this, or someone else maybe saying that by living
in an expensive city, that's a big one. For most
people of normal means, the idea of securing a second
residence just doesn't work. So they say, Okay, we're not
going to be able to do that, so I'm going
to have to figure out something here, because it could
have again ramifications for living, custody, commuting, all kinds of

(25:44):
stuff like that. So there are practical things there. If
it's coming down to practicalities and you're being very honest
with yourself and it's not because you think some magical
relationship ferry is going to come floating in and making
it all better, then I don't think it's unhealthy to
consider staying. And that kind of self judgment can often
lead survivors to shame themselves when they stay. It just

(26:05):
requires you being honest and open and realistic with yourself
as well. I know a lot of people grapple with this.
Leaving and divorcing is not the only option. It is
to some and even then folks, and even then to
this person, post separation abuse is real. Again. Tina Swidden,
who was on this podcast, talked about post separation abuse

(26:25):
what happens when the relationship ends, and that's its own
form of problems. Over and over on navigating narcissism, I've
talked about this idea that just because the relationship ends
doesn't mean that the problems do. And so making choices
for yourself without judging yourself and saying, what kind of
fool stay is married to a narcissistic person. So many
millions of people that I would never called fools make

(26:48):
that choice. The key is to make that choice with
your eyes wide open. One of the things I do
observe is that when people decide to stay in these marriages,
and they do it with radical acceptance and realistic expect
nations and disengage and low contact and build up their
own supports, something happens organically where the person would have

(27:08):
thought five years before divorce would have been impossible by
actually giving themselves permission to see the relationship clearly, no
longer playing the gas lighted future fake. Maybe someday, maybe
this will happen if I try this, and on and
on in a self blame. Once that gets lifted and
you see it for what it is, it's like in

(27:28):
that harsh, glaring light, you can't unsee it. And some
people will say, you know what, I spent three, four
or five ten years fortifying myself seeing it clearly, and
when I couldn't unsee it anymore, divorce started feeling like
a viable option, and they found themselves leaving, but not
nearly as quickly as they thought. So keep in mind

(27:49):
that this is an evolving process. You don't know how
it's going to go. You may end up leaving, you
may not. But any decision that is focused on your growth,
on your authenticity, on your self compassion, and above all else,
on your individualtion, on your separating from this person, not
getting your identity from their happiness, but from your own,

(28:13):
that's a winner. Anytime. Thank you for your question. We
will be right back with my answers to your questions.
In this next question, this person asks a very brief question,
but I think it's one that many people ask about,
and it's something we haven't actually covered in navigating narcissism,

(28:34):
which is have you dealt with addicts that displayed traits
of narcissism and is this common in people living with addiction?
And the answer to that is yes. Addiction and narcissism
share a lot of commonalities. There is a lot of denial, rationalization, justification,
blame shifting, distorted or minimal empathy, egocentricity, selfishness, as it were, entitlement.

(29:01):
All of those things we see in addiction, we also
see them in narcissism. Now, not every addict is narcissistic,
and obviously not every narcissistic person is an addict. What
I've witnessed is and sometimes we won't even fully get
it until the person stops using. And where I've seen
it is where a family will have a family member

(29:22):
who's struggling with addiction, living with addiction, and then that
family member goes to rehab and they get treated, and
some weeks later they come home sober and they'll say,
wait a minute, this person still does not have empathy,
and they're really entitled, and they're still really mean. And
the family will say, what, we thought that when they

(29:45):
stopped using, they're going to become more self aware and
more capable of empathy. It's not even like they thought
they'd come home and be a sweetheart. But in many ways,
the very things, the very elements of that toxic personality,
they remain toxic. But the family thought it was the addiction,
and that's when we know we're dealing with that overlay.

(30:05):
The people in the treatment facility would have noticed the
same that these are often clients that are really difficult
to engage in treatment, who are often quite dismissive, quite contemptuous,
and all of that. So that's actually a really painful
wake up call for these families and who may also
see it because as we know, with addiction, it is
a disease, and in there may be periods where there

(30:26):
might be periods of less use, and in a person
who is an addict but doesn't have the co occurring narcissism,
in those periods of clarity, you will actually see someone
who like they're they're they're still in there. It's the
damn drugs and alcohol. But for people who are narcissistic
and have co occurring addiction, what you might see is

(30:46):
you might see some shifts in behavior, but the things
that remain constant the entitlement, the lack of empathy, the
lack of self reflective capacity, then diminish self awareness, the
control all of that, the need for dominance. That's never
to go away from my chair. From a treatment perspective,
and when I've worked with addiction medicine, physicians and etcetera

(31:06):
on this issue, it makes treatment trickier. And what we
see is that there may be a greater likelihood of relapse.
And we see this in particular when a person is
a vulnerable narcissist and more of the resentful, sullen, grievance
filled angry at the world narcissism, those folks are more
likely to relapse. And because you've got to remember narcissism

(31:29):
is at its core, there's a challenge with regulation. They
cannot manage emotion. The upwelling of negative emotions for lots
of narcissistic people brings up a lot of shame. Well,
you want to know one way to get rid of
a feeling of shame numb it, and there are no
faster way to numbin emotion than drugs and alcohol. So

(31:50):
the drugs either active, numb it soothed, push it down
like a substance that's more of a depressant like alcohol,
or become a way to pump up that grandiosity like
you'd see with the stimulant like cocaine, when a person
is even more jazzed up and really feel like they're
the king of the world. So drugs and alcohol will

(32:12):
interact with narcissism in a way to sort of enhance regulation,
and then that youth can spiral out of control. In
my work with clients who have co occurring narcissism and
addiction and men, I tell you it was a wild ride.
It was like it was like it was like riding
a bull on cocaine, quite frankly, because it was just
it was a ride that would never end. We were

(32:35):
either managing the crisis around the narcissism and the relational
disruptions and all of that, or we were managing the
crisis of a relapse, or we were managing the crisis
of addiction. And I was just a shrink. You can
imagine what this must be like for family members, and
it can make relationships really difficult. It can even make
it can make recovery a complicated space. We talked with

(32:57):
somebody who had a spouse with a lot of narcissistic
characteristics who was living with an addiction, and what she
had observed was that he even turned his recovery as
a way to get validation. And that's also not unusual
that we would see somebody who uses twelve step more
as a place to get validation rather than what it's

(33:18):
meant to be, which is really a place of humility
and a place to really commit to who a person
needs to be to recover, to make this a daily practice,
a commitment and recognize that there's something much bigger running
the show. That's really hard for a narcissistic person. But
we do sometimes see the risk of performative recovery where

(33:39):
a narcissistic person will sort of seemingly be committed to
recovery more to get validation than really in the hard
work of recovery. But for me is as a therapist,
it's like whatever I can harness to keep this person
from using all often use. So when I've been working
with a narcissistic clients who also are living with addiction.
I'm like, okay, if the validation seeking what's keeping them

(34:00):
sober for now, I'm going to work with that that
We'll deal with the narcissism in a minute. But the
narcissism never goes away. So I thank you for that
question because it is a really important overlap in one
that we still don't fully understand well. So in our
next question, we'll be talking about religious trauma. This person

(34:23):
is working to untangle religious trauma that they've endured from
the church. They realized that the church, this organized system
of the church, they feel it functions in a narcissistic way.
They then like, in this religious system to a cult.
They say, I can't explain it, but it feels like
I was raised in a cult. The gas lighting, invalidation, control, isolation, shame,

(34:45):
and the rage and threat of being discarded when you
were out of line. Even though my church wasn't headed
by a single charismatic leader, the movement and the denomination
is charismatic and grandiose. They taught us that we were
the only ones that were right and going to heaven
because of our specific brand of faith, and they were
not pleased about this. This person says, it's all b Yes,

(35:08):
I no longer believe that God will judge you based
on how little you sinned, but rather how you treated
those you gain power over. I don't believe in eternal
condemnation either anymore, as far as I care. It's a
fear tactic to keep people in line. So this person's
question really is well, they have two questions. One is

(35:32):
how did the church sort of prime us to become narcissistic. Supply,
churches have an advantage, not just churches, All religious communities
have an advantage. Right, People who walk into religious communities
are making the assumption that these are communities that are
organized around good, that are organized around God, and we

(35:53):
make assumptions that God is beneficent and God is good.
I would have to believe that a god, any God,
would be not anti narcissistic, because I do believe that
God would love everyone, but wouldn't judge people on their
sins and rather on their goodness. A church, though, is
a human engineered organization, and as a result, it's going

(36:16):
to be vulnerable to all the problems an organization has triangulation, chaos,
power struggles, domination, all the things, and and yet the
problem is people go in in many ways without their
suspicion meters on because this is a house of God,

(36:38):
you know, the problem is is that God is an
always present at the meetings to call out the toxic bs,
and so those people who anoint themselves as the carriers,
as the vessels of God, there's something the little grandiose
about that. From the jump right, one would actually argue
that God probably resides in the most ordinary amongst us,

(37:00):
and not the person who's wearing a shiny suit and
driving a fancy car. So churches are very much and
again all religious communities, not just churches, pick a religion,
pickets denomination. People are at their most vulnerable going in
because they're not only vulnerable, but their trust is almost absolute.

(37:20):
So once toxic systems are in play, the challenge then
becomes is you may have narcissistic players, but then you'll
have tons and tons of enablers who effectively become the flock.
So anybody who wants to individuate and be their own
person within such a system is going to be pathologized.

(37:42):
And any church that doesn't hold space for individuation, for
people being their true selves. That's already an unhealthy organization psychologically,
psychological growth comes for holding space for people where they
are at, not where we want them to be. And
so that unwillingness to let people be themselves, which many

(38:04):
religious communities are are guilty of, is something that is
almost a set up for many religious communities to start
becoming quite toxic. So in that way, a church primes
people to become narcissistic supply, because churches are often places
of obedience, duty, and obligation, and so it's it's in essence,

(38:25):
it becomes a form of social control. And people who
have their own independent relationships with God, with religion, with
whatever higher power and spiritual force out there that they
interact with, that private relationship is often their most intimate relationship,
and that what happens in the church is something that's

(38:46):
much more organized and curated. It's not going to be
as honest. And yet those organizations often don't necessarily enhance
that personal relationship a person has with their God or
with their higher spiritual power, but rather they want to
all run through that religious community. Not all religious communities
are like this, by the way, Some are quite collaborative

(39:07):
and cooperative and actually joined together in that way. But
unfortunately it happens all too often because some people have
too much power and the trust is too absolute, which
can all you need is one toxic player in that system,
and the entire system could actually easily be contaminated. The

(39:27):
other question, though, this person asks, is how does a
narcissistic person maintain a relationship with God or with any deity?
And I found this to be a fascinating question. I
had to sit with this one for a minute, and
I have to tell you, I actually think it would
be a very grandiose relationship. And what happens is narcissistic

(39:48):
people tend to seek out other people that they perceive
to be high status, and they get narcissistic supply from
hanging out with people they perceive to be high status.
So that's why they'll often dump friends if they start
hanging with somebody who's more connected or has more money
or something like that. But what gets really interesting is

(40:11):
that when you think about God, like, I mean, that's
the hottest sticking in the room, right, So of God
your best friend? You know. That's so in a way,
I think that many narcissistic folks are going to believe
that the relationship that they have with a deity, that
they have with a higher power, that they have with
God is better than everybody else's relationship. Well, you know,
by the way I know God more, God returns my

(40:33):
text kind of thing. And so you really can get
into this perverse place where they think they've like God's
their homie kind of thing, like they've they've got it
all worked out, and you're not. You, of course, are
not as close to God or higher Power as them,
And that's where we start getting into the really dangerous
spaces of spiritual narcissism, where narcissistic people will claim to

(40:54):
be more spiritually evolved, more holy, more connected to the
voice of God, more connected to the spirit than everyone
else because they've been chosen. I think it's really grandiose
to think that one person has chosen. I think the
whole idea of a healthy God is that God to
egalitarian and chooses everyone. So I think that that's what

(41:14):
a narcissistic person's relationship often is with a spiritual force,
is that their relationship is better than anyone else's. So
it's got all the narcissistic flair, the entitlement, the arrogance
and basically God likes me better, so it's not going
to be a healthy relationship, and they're often going to
weaponize that spiritual relationship and hold it over others and

(41:36):
make the argument that I have a closer relationship with
whatever the spiritual forces than you ergo. I'm better. So
even in spaces that should be clean, spiritual, and holy,
somehow toxic relationships managed to mess them up. So thanks
for that question. My session will continue with my answer

(42:00):
to your questions after this break. I'm a PhD candidate
with an emotionally abusive supervisor. Chronic gas lighting, blame shifting, lies, threats, discrimination,
future faking, all of it. This person wanted to reach

(42:21):
out and ask me, Dr Romany, would you be willing
to speak about narcissism and academia. Oh? Yes, I would.
I have seen several high caliber students being victimized by
my supervisor, and it's heartbreaking to see the toll it
takes on their self worth and career aspirations, as well
as their physical and mental health. I've known the abusive

(42:42):
supervisor for nine years, worked directly with her for seven years.
The patterns are consistent. Students before me were abused. I've
experienced similar forms of abuse, and students younger than me
continue to be abused, but there appears to be no
help available. She has known in the department as controlling
and shady, but that's about it. Nobody seems to care

(43:06):
that her actions have very real and lasting consequences for
her victims. Do you have any recommendations or advice for
graduate students in my position? So let me begin with
I'm so sorry for you, and I know this better
than you would think. When I read this question, this
is one of the ones I actually kind of felt
in my chest because I know what this can do

(43:27):
to a career for anyone, and so early in the game.
So I'm going to be a downer for a minute,
and I'm gonna be a downer for a specific reason.
So I'm gonna really be a therapist for a minute.
I mean to sit here and tell you there's a
lot less to do about this than you think, which
isn't good to hear. But there's a reason I'm saying that,
because if I sat here and play a little miss

(43:50):
let's try this, and let's try that, I'd be taking
you down a treacherous garden path which could actually hurt
your career before it even begin. And the reason I
say that is more than anything else to be validating,
because it can be really frustrating to believe that there
is something to be done. You try to do those things,

(44:11):
not only does nothing happen, but you end up finding
out that you might have put yourself in harm's way.
So let's break it down a little bit. What you
describe is a real example of sort of intergenerational institutional abuse,
and academia is unique for this. For those of you
listening who don't work in university settings, university settings are

(44:33):
incredibly unique and how difficult it is to remove somebody
who holds something called tenure from their positions. Once a
person gets tenure, they get a very unique form of
job security. Now there's a wonderful thing about that, because
back in the day, tenure was designed so people could
openly speak their minds and not feared that they were

(44:55):
going to lose their job through some form of retribution.
Though I have to say even that star to change
in academia. But secondarily it just sort of protected people
in those roles. But the problem is that kind of
you can't touch me nous when it is held by
a person who has a narcissistic or antagonistic style, is

(45:15):
a disaster because what it means is that students in
these models, students, fellows, residents, whomever is training like this
are viewed as disposable because you're going to come and go.
But that person, who they know damn well they cannot
get rid of without a huge legal battle. Would rather
hope and hold their breath that the students just going

(45:38):
to move on, then take on the task of removing
that person. And if that professor is a hot shot
bringing in grant money, publishing science, forget it. The probability
of seeing any movement in this is really really low.
In the interim, I'm here to validate you and say

(45:58):
I have no doubt a harm this is causing you.
How difficult it is, the eggshells you walk on just
to be able. It's already hard enough to be a
graduate student. It's ten times harder when you're having to
do this with so much anxiety. I would say, glean
support without it being gossipy. It doesn't have to be.
Let's all go talk badly about this supervisor. But one

(46:21):
place that can be useful is being there for each other.
There's actually some really interesting research that was written about,
I believe, in the Harvard Business Review, and what they
were talking about is that when people have to work
under conditions of working with someone really awful like your supervisor,
that you can see that these really tight and healthy

(46:43):
alliances can form between the people who are stuck working there,
and through all that support, they may actually generate some
really interesting ideas, be much stronger supports for each other,
and create a really special place. As someone firsthand who
has had this happen, being in really toxic academic settings
but ended up making some incredibly important alliances that decades

(47:06):
later remain important to me, I know how that works.
I see it happen, and it can really result in
some amazing things. That's number one. Number two. As soon
as you can get a position away from this person,
do it. It's not going to change, So it often
means you need to leave, and that sometimes means taking
a position in a less prestigious institution. It may mean

(47:27):
changing some of your research focus or your teaching focus
or whatever it is, but because that's not likely to change,
hanging around longer no different than in any kind of
narcissistic relationship. Not only are things not going to get better,
it means that ten years down the road, you're going
to look backwards and say I should have gotten out
ten years ago because I could see how this was

(47:48):
never going to change. The next thing you want to
keep in mind is document everything, and I mean everything.
It's almost becomes its own part time job because if
you ever do, you decide to pursue something. Human resource
departments anywhere, and particularly in university settings, are notorious for
moving glacially again knowing the restrictions tenure puts on them

(48:12):
to do anything. By documentation, I also mean emails, any
other form of inappropriate communication that's come your way, much
more detailed minutes of meetings, whatever you can bring, if
you decide to pursue it, you will need that documentation.
That documentation also serves a secondary function because it conserved
to validate you to say, Okay, my journal five years

(48:35):
ago was saying the same thing. Now, this is not
going to change. Because to the last part of your
question that nobody seems to care that her actions have
very real and lasting consequences, You're absolutely right. Most people
in the system don't care Sadly, many people in these
kinds of employment settings almost view this as a bit
of a hazing ritual. We are seeing some bits of

(48:58):
change here and there. I do think that the Me
Too movement may have put a little bit more attention
on workplace abuses, but since so much of Me Too
was really focused almost solely on sexual harassment, it actually
didn't necessarily extend to the other kinds of abuses you
talk about, which your psychological abuses that really harm people
at developmental stages in their career. But I know how

(49:22):
real this is, and I have to say, having lived
through some things like this that were similar, I remember
when I got to that juncture in my career and
I was in a very traditional academic career, and I
remember looking down that pathway and saying, you're either going
to stick this out and maybe find out that this
isn't gonna work out, or you're just going to make
the leap. And I made the leap. And it was

(49:42):
a very interesting leap because it it harmed and even
distorted my career in some ways, but it got me
away from the problematic person. But what was fascinating is
that many years later I talked to people who stayed
in the position and things were exactly the same. So
my my prediction was actually spot on, and I can
almost promise you the same in your situation. So get

(50:04):
that support from others, be a mentor for those who
might be more junior, and consider figuring out what your
escape looks like as soon as you can, because then
you can be the next generation of academic that's not
doing this to others. But in the interim, this one
is not going to be easy, and I really do
wish you luck because we need your scholarship. We need

(50:26):
the scholarship of sane people because the problem is in
academia almost more than many other spaces, it's the toxic,
narcissistic people who too often kind of over occupy the
air waves because I think in some ways they just
act like bullies with PhD s, and that often gives
them a legitimized voice, and that a lot of people

(50:46):
don't pay attention to the students because like I said,
they think you're coming and going, and that damn tenure,
while it's so important, it can really really keep some
really antagonistic people having too much power for too long.
So thanks again and good luck and I hope your
degree in your training goes really smoothly. So in this

(51:07):
next question, this is actually something really important because I
don't believe we really tackled this in navigating narcissism, so
it's a great one for us to unpack. Here, this
person is asking, I'm wondering if you have thoughts on
selective narcissism. I've heard this used to describe people who
seem to be generally empathic but then don't show any

(51:29):
empathy for lgbt Q plus people or BIPOC people are
people of color, for example. I've wondered about this because
I'm queer myself, and I don't understand the lack of
empathy that my parents have shown. I try very hard
to be understanding about the fact that they grew up
in a different time with different expectations, and that they
never expected to have a queer child, But no matter

(51:52):
how gently I try to talk to them about it,
nothing seems to help. I try to tell them that
the way that they have spoken about queer people my
whole life has had a really painful impact on me,
and they either yell at me, saying, how dare you
say that to me? We've done nothing but love you,
or they laugh and scoff saying, please stop exaggerating, that's ridiculous.

(52:14):
So on this question, I'm going to start, first of
all to say, you know, thank you for sitting in
such a vulnerable question, because what's being voiced here is
something that generations of people have experienced and still continue
to experience, and it is it's devastating because we still
very much live in a world of bias. So let's

(52:36):
start with the selective narcissism, because I actually don't know
if I agree with this term. I believe that somebody
who's generally empathetic and then carries an unempathetic stance about
an entire group of people is not empathic. They're not
because the ability to dismiss an entire group of people

(52:58):
merely based on a singular care acteristic you're queer, your black,
whatever it may be, that's not empathy. So that to
me is showing a failure in empathy. And then it
shows me that there may be they may have good manners,
and I think we make a real mistake of confusing
manners and empathy. That they may be able to keep

(53:18):
it together with certain groups because they feel validated because
they're amongst people like them. But I I've got to
tell you to me, racism and narcissism, and genderism and
heterosexism and narcissism are highly highly associated. So I don't
think it's selective narcissism. I think it's a very narcissistic approach. Again,

(53:39):
when you're able to eliminate an entire group of people
on the basis of a bias, that's just me. I
am sure there are people out there who would take
me to task on that, but that's what I believe.
Now you're bringing this though to the level of your family,
that becomes an entirely different kind of experience, because while
I'm not saying that any of us could fully under

(54:00):
stand why there's discrimination and bias in the world, we
can sometimes feel a slight step removed from it, were
hurt by it, were harmed by it. But it's not
the same as the people who care about us. We're
supposed to care about us. The things that this person
says in their question, that when a person is showing
up and in a very vulnerable way saying the things

(54:22):
you're saying are hurting me, so are sharing a feeling
the push back is how dare you share your emotion
then gas lighting them, We've always loved you. Clearly, this
person doesn't feel loved because they have been basically invalidated
on the basis of being queer. And they laugh and
scoff and say, stop exaggerating, that's ridiculous, more gas lighting.

(54:45):
I think this has happened for many people. It is
part of their process of coming out. They had one
belief about their family. They suspected that coming out would
be difficult, that process of coming out is difficult, and
that fear is infirmed. I think that when a person
is queer and grows up in a family where they
know it will be difficult, they've already had to do

(55:07):
so much justifying and shape shifting because of that fear,
because of knowing that they would be rejected if they
came out, And then after coming out, the family then
continues to reject, but then doubles down even more, continues
to gaslight. Gaslighters. Don't just start gaslighting one day, that's
what gaslighters gaslight. There like scorpion scorpions thaying gaslighters gaslight.

(55:29):
It's just how it goes, and so they were likely
gaslighting you all along, so here to be rejected on
the basis of simply who we are, okay, whether it's queer,
whether it's being a person of color, whether it's race,
what it's a rejection of who we are. These are

(55:49):
not choices as we make they are who we are
to me is the ultimate invalidation. To have it happen
with a family member is absolutely devastating. The uphill climb
that this kind of question reveals is then not only
having to deal with a toxic family, but a recognition

(56:10):
that many times these beliefs, especially when they're being presented
in this cruel, gas lighted way, are like concrete and
almost impossible to move in all of the questions we've
been taking on. Therapy is often an essential ingredient towards healing.
In a situation like this one, it's absolutely essential not

(56:31):
only therapy, but therapy with a therapist who is really
aware of the dynamics and issues around coming out, especially
when there is toxic pushback in the face of it.
We live in a world characterized by discrimination and bias
and gas lighting on the daily, and that is why
all of us, unwittingly are in a relationship with the

(56:52):
narcissistem and we didn't even know it. It's just basically
the world at large. When this trickles into your family system,
it's all the usual rules of managing narcissistic relationships. What
this person did, they did something I called going into
the tiger's cage. This person expressed a very real need,
a very real emotion to someone close to them, in

(57:13):
this case their family, and said, the way you've spoken
about queer people has hurt me. It's been painful. I
always say it's I call it the tiger's cages. You
can go into the tiger's cage. Odds are what's going
to happen is the tiger is going to tear your
throat out. Right. Every so often, you might be wrong.
You go on the tiger's cage. You're like, oh, that's
actually just a cat. But if it's a tiger, you're
gonna get hurt. And maybe you sometimes go into that

(57:36):
cage to find out if it really is a tiger,
and then word of advice, don't go back into the
damn cage again. This person went into the cage and
what they saw there's something painful that is not likely
to change it is not your job to educate your
parents on this issue. You've done your best, and to

(57:57):
keep doing that may very well comment harm to you
to your own mental health to keep doing that. It's
very personal to you on how you would choose to
integrate your family into your life going forward. Some people
would say I'm done and really put their focus on
chosen family, recognizing what the journey was and grieving the

(58:18):
loss of family, which for any of us to know
that was not an unconditionally loving space is utterly devastating.
If you choose to maintain contact with your family, then
it's done with in a way that is informed by
the fact that they are invalidating you that it's not
going to change. To keep realistic expectations, to really think

(58:42):
about whether you'd want to bring a partner into that
circumstance where they are going to hear that critique. Some
people say, my partner and I are on the same page.
They're willing to come in. I was actually just with
a gay couple recently, two men, and they were sharing
stories about family of origin, and they knew exactly what
their dealing with a part It's like, I love them,
we know what we're dealing with they go in together,

(59:03):
and so that's that's a very personal choice and that
one that you need to work through. But the key
work for you it's again not going deep, not defending,
not engaging, not explaining, and not personalizing. This is their bias.
Don't let it at all diminish your brightness, your journey
and who you really are, because that's what they're doing,

(59:24):
is they're negating who you really are. But this becomes
the work of therapy to recognize how often you were
overtly shamed your entire life for who you are. That
is a very very heavy wound to carry. Unpacking that
and therapy becomes essential as part of your journey of

(59:44):
individuation and then deciding how it works for you to
fit your family into your life, but recognizing that likely
going forward it will at best be a very superficial
relationship that has always got that sort of cloud of
judgment and shame hanging over it. And as I've said

(01:00:05):
to others, self, compassion becomes a huge part of this
work and having support from other individuals who may have
gone through very similar processes as you, so you don't
feel alone in this and feel supported. It is devastating.
It is devastating to be invalidated by our parents for

(01:00:25):
whom we simply are. But it's not insurmountable. And I
really thank you for bringing up this question because it's
it envelops two issues, not just what happens in individual families,
but what happens in the world at large. And again
a pushback, I don't believe in selective narcissism. If people
may have nice manners, say their pleases and thank yous,

(01:00:48):
and remember the right gift, and even help a person out,
but if they weren't willing to extend that help to
another human being on this arbitrary basis, that does not
count as empathy in my book. Maybe that's just me,
but I'm sticking. I'm sticking to my point of view.
So thank you again for your incredibly vulnerable question. I

(01:01:09):
have no doubt that many other people will benefit from this.
I'd like to conclude by saying thank you, thank you
for joining us, thank you for your questions, something that
I hope to keep getting to on a regular basis,
especially when it rounds out what we're already talking about
on navigating narcissism. One thing that these questions teach us
is how devastating these relationships can be, no matter what

(01:01:31):
the nature of the relationship is. And I also do
want to reiterate yes, getting your questions answered can be helpful,
but in most cases, talking to a licensed mental health
practitioner about these issues to unpack not only issues related
to narcissistic abuse, but then many other sorts of psychological
and psychosocial challenges that come from these relationships is often necessitated.

(01:01:54):
So thank you, Thank you for your vulnerable questions. Thank
you for allowing me for a moment of attempt to
shed a light on these issues. And please keep those
questions coming in. It's a real privilege to read them,
and many of them have forced me to really do
a research deep dive to ensure that I keep this
knowledge base moving forward in the hopes of validating each

(01:02:18):
of your experiences in these very difficult situations. Thank you
again for listening. A big thank you to our executive
producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valen Jethrow, Ellen Rakaton and Dr
Rominey de Vassela. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones,
associate producer Maria Dela Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally,

(01:02:42):
thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnahe
and Calvin Bailiff.