October 13, 2022 • 46 mins
Jenifer Faison and Andrea Gunning of Betrayal Podcast continue to share their story in part 2 of their episode. Dr. Ramani, Jenifer and Andrea dive deeper into how Jen dealt with Spencer's lovers. While it is common for victims of infidelity to blame both parties, Jenifer explains what she thinks about Spencer's relationships with teenagers vs. adult women, and how he didn’t seem like a villain - at first. They wrap the episode speaking on their thoughts on love, and whether after an experience like this there still can be hope for future relationships.
Host Information:
Instagram: Dr Ramani's IG - @doctorramani
Facebook: Dr Ramani's FB - @doctorramani
Twitter: Dr Ramani's TW - @DoctorRamani
YouTube: Dr. Ramani’s YT - DoctorRamani
Guest Information:
Betrayal Podcast: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-betrayal-the-perfect-husb-95632727/
Guest Bios:
Jenifer Faison
Jenifer Faison is the host of the podcast Betrayal, which shot up to number one and remained there for several weeks in the US and beyond. In addition to podcasting, Jen is an Emmy nominated television producer, with credits such as Judge Judy and Extreme Makeover: Home Edition and most recently Netflix Instant Dream Home. After building her career in LA for 17 years, Jenifer now resides in Acworth, GA with her cat, California Berry.
Andrea Gunning
Andrea Gunning is Glass Entertainment Group’s Head of Podcast Development and Production. She recently added “talent" to her responsibilities as co-host of Apple’s number one podcast, Betrayal. Previous to podcast life, “Dre” as she’s called by friends and colleagues, was a television executive based in Philadelphia. Her passions include her family, fitness and summers at the Jersey shore.
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Navigating Narcissism is produced by Red Table Talk Podcasts. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: Jada Pinkett-Smith, Fallon Jethroe, Ellen Rakieten, and Dr. Ramani Durvasula. Also, PRODUCER: Matthew Jones, ASSOCIATE PRODUCER: Mara De La Rosa. EDITORS AND AUDIO MIXERS: Devin Donaghy and Calvin Bailiff.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This
(00:23):
episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people.
The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the
podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do
not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I
Heart Media, or their employees. I'm almost glad it happened
(00:47):
the way it did or it was such a big scale,
because it helped me to realize it wasn't me. It
would have happened regardless. It was happening before he and
I were to get I think if he had had
an intimate relationship with one person, it would have been
even more devastating than it was. We have been hearing
(01:09):
from Jennifer Faceon and Andrea Gunning from the podcast Betrayal,
a story of betrayal that isn't just shocking for its
size and scope, but with how unexpected it was. Jen
didn't see any red flags, so when her world came
crashing down, she was left with the pain and trauma
(01:29):
of making sense of it all. While betrayal is present
in almost all narcissistic relationships, their podcast was not about narcissism.
Jen and Andrea were more focused on telling the story
of the survivors and not focusing on the behavior and
character of the betrayer. The recognition that whether it is
(01:50):
one betrayal or many, is that there are some predictable
patterns in manipulative and deceptive relationships, grooming and indoctrination, lack
of empathy, entitlement, and a bottomless supply of denial and rationalization.
Let's keep exploring how narcissism showed up in Gen's story,
(02:14):
So Andrea, upon listening to the story, one of the
most powerful parts of the show to me as a
listener was when the women involved in these accusations spoke
with Jen. Right, that, in many ways is the moment
that many people who have experienced any form of relational
betrayal or infidelity. Would I ever speak to this person,
(02:34):
Would I ever want to speak to this person who
was involved in my betrayal? Right? Can you shed some
light on some of the decisions that were made to
bring these women to your podcast to actually have these
conversations with them, because it was incredibly powerful. I think
when Jen and I sat down for the very first time,
she was dealing with a lot of anger and a
(02:57):
lot of anger, a lot of misplaced anger. And this
is not the first time I've set this in front
of Jen. Right, there was a lot of not understanding
these women, and I felt like, I want us to
get to the bottom of that anger, and the best
way to do that is to confront it and talk
to these women and really hear their point of view,
(03:19):
because I felt like who she was truly angry with
was her husband, Spencer. I had just met Jen in
and listening to her story, I felt like, it's a
horrible experience. I truly believe she didn't see anything, but
I know that these women had their own individual experience,
(03:40):
as I just knew in my gut. So I felt
like it was helpful for her to understand the man
that they had a relationship with because she owed it
to herself in the time she had invested to really
know who this person was. So that was really the
decision to sit down with these other women and Jen
was game and the women were too, So I have
(04:01):
a lot of admiration at her bravery and their bravery.
So interesting, Andrea, how you framed as misplaced anger, because
I think that anytime somebody experiences any form of relational
infidelity or betrayal, they do have anger at the other party.
I mean, it's I think it's just it's built in,
and I think it's part of the overwhelm of the process.
How did that shift for you over time? Jen, Because
(04:24):
I have to say, I have yet to meet the
person who out the gate when they learn about a
betrayal or an infidelity, say like I'm only mad at
my partner. Oh, that other person is blamed free right.
We will never get away from that sense of co complicity,
especially if there's awareness that they knew you existed. I
think there's sometimes a little more empathy if that other
(04:46):
person was sold such a story that you know, with
a different identity, and so there was no even way
to no look at social media or any of that,
no wedding ring, all those things that we might say, Okay,
this person was completely completely scammed. But it's sounds like
some of these women actually definitely knew you existed. So
how did you move from that anger towards the women
(05:10):
who were having these relationships with him to shifting your
anger solely towards Spence, Because that's actually a really difficult shift.
It was in the beginning I learned a couple of
these women I knew had made a choice to have
an affair with my husband, and I was mad because
(05:33):
they were old enough to know better and they made
that decision. So I did have a lot of anger.
I think it was after really diving in and exploring
Spence's role in those affairs and how he manipulated them.
He lied to them. He would tell women that he
(05:54):
loved them, shower them with compliments. I started to realize
is that, yes, they had a choice on whether or
not to participate, but they were also manipulated to believing
that they were special to this person. And I felt
for that. It felt for them to be lied to
(06:18):
and just deceived so horribly. Reading the things that he
would write to them and say, it was just awful.
So I started feeling some empathy toward them because I
started really realizing how he operated. And I think it
was important that you can hold two thoughts at once,
(06:40):
right like, you can still be angry but also understand
the mechanics of how the relationship came to be. And
in some cases there were women that were racked with shame.
It was just we're just wearing that shame every day,
you know. The one woman Hope wasn't even excited to
get married because of the shame that she carried. And
so I never wanted Jen to say I'm not angry anymore,
(07:04):
because you can hold those two thoughts. You can be
angry but understanding. You can have those two feelings. And
I think that's what's so challenging when you have these
kinds of antagonistic, manipulative relationships, is that multiple things can
be true at the same time, and I think we
often have trouble holding multiple truths simultaneously, especially when they
seem sort of at odds with each other. When I
was listening to the story, I was very struck by
(07:26):
how different the tenor of the conversation was when you
were talking with the person who was a student at
the time of the relationship versus the person who was
an adult woman internally for you, emotionally for you. How
would those experiences different, Because I can't see how they
wouldn't be different. They must have felt so different to
talk to a person who was still a minor when
(07:47):
all this has happened, versus a person like you said,
who knew you, who was making a different kind of
a choice. What was happening inside of you when you
had those two different conversations and speaking with the student,
I just did not hold her responsible in any way.
I don't care. Maybe if she had a crush on
(08:08):
him at the time, whatever, none of that was her
responsibility in this. He was a teacher, and what he
did to someone so young was just it's devastating. It's sickening,
you know, to think about he was with the sixteen
(08:30):
year old. I remember how I was in high school,
and so I kind of thought, what if that had
happened to me. The most important thing for me was
for her to know that I did not hold her
responsible for it. I did not put any blame on
her for it. She was completely a victim. And then
(08:50):
in speaking with some of the adult women, they did
have some responsibility in saying, yes, they knew he was married.
I wasn't. I was empathetic, but I couldn't solely put
the blame on spence because they did participate. If that
makes sense, it absolutely makes sense. Not only does it
(09:11):
make sense, I think a lot of people would have
found those conversations difficult, if not impossible, to have. Those
were such human conversations. Your sense of restraint was remarkable.
Your empathy came through. But I will tell you this,
I could hear the edge in your voice when you
were talking to the adult women, which humanized you to me,
because if you were just like I get it, I'd
be like, oh come on now. But I heard the
(09:31):
edge and I thought, Okay, this is actually remarkable restraint.
I wouldn't have been able to do that. We heard
the humanity of it. But it sounds upon listening to
your podcast, he uses a similar ground game with every
person he was trying to draw into one of these relationships.
Can you say more about that? Yeah, it was absolutely
the same thing. He would tell them, Oh, you're so beautiful.
(09:55):
It was that same flirting. It was like I just
picture him casting that line out and seeing who would bite,
and so many women did bite. And the way he
would talk to them on text and string them along
and just make them feel like they were the only one.
And that was another thing in talking with them, they
(10:17):
didn't know that they were one of fifty sixty. So
when I found out the whole spectrum of how many people,
that was one of the reasons I think I was
so angry. And then talking to them individually, I got
to see that humanity and what they had gone through
(10:38):
and what they were feeling because of it. And I
think that one thing that he was very good at doing,
which groomers and narcissists are very good at doing, is
identifying vulnerabilities in other people and using it to their advantage.
So with the high school student that was sexually assaulted
and we say sexual thought because it was adjudicated and
(11:00):
the state of Georgia, and that's what he was convicted of,
he used her faith against her. This is God wanted
this to happen. He knew that in and he worked
that angle with Jen's friends. She had just come off
of being pregnant and was feeling like she was trapped
in her house and like this mother's solitude and didn't
(11:22):
feel pretty and he knew that. So he was very
masterful and really identifying vulnerabilities that are very different, individualistic
to each woman, but working that relationship identifying those vulnerabilities
and capitalizing on them, right, and that, right, there's a
definition of manipulation. And he was such a personable person that,
(11:44):
if you want to use the word flirt, he flirted
with everybody, or he was just kind to everybody and
engaging and all of that. And I think that's another
thing he used, was his personality, because who would think that,
I know, I had another friend and that he had
reached out to and she just kind of stopped it
(12:06):
and thought and never send anything to me, because she
just thought, oh, that's just spense. He's just so nice.
He didn't he wasn't really meaning anything by and so
she was able to set a boundary because she was
able to set a boundary. And you're right, we don't
understand how seductive niceness is. We often think of the
big ticket seduction, the sort of the the swagger and
(12:27):
the arrogance. But it's nice. I mean, you know, and
there is somebody with this kind of manipulative personality who
is nice. I cannot think of a more dangerous combination.
Because we want our villains to look like villains, right,
we want him to look like jerks and me and
almost have a villain. Look, and I'm not hearing that
(12:49):
any of that was here. And then again, manipulation is
a way for a person to get what they want
while making the other person feel like it's good for them.
That it's the core of manipulation. And that's what you
were saying was happening over and over again. This is
meant to be, this is what God would want. You're
so pretty, you deserve more attention, and to figure that
(13:10):
out in a way it had to have felt like,
I'd imagine I'm speculating like a game for him. It's
almost like closing a sale. Sales is manipulation, and so
too was this. So it's really the scale of this
was so stunning to me. I mean, I've heard betrayal
stories before, but this, the scale of this one was.
This wasn't just as as though it was behaving inappropriately
as a teacher and he had an affair, or the
(13:31):
more classical story of a person has in a relationship
and their partner has an affair with one person. The
scale of this, the number of people being communicated with
having sexual contact with you know, the the breath and
the depth of it. Again, you're gonna have to speculate
because you haven't had the other scenario. Do you ever
think about, well, how this would feel different than if
(13:52):
it was sort of your standard. I have a husband
and he cheated on me. That is such a good question,
because I've thought about it a lot. This sound crazy,
but I'm almost glad it happened the way it did,
or it was such a big scale, because it helped
me to realize it wasn't me. It would have happened
(14:13):
regardless it was happening before he and I were together.
I think if he had had an intimate relationship with
one person, it would have been even more devastating than
it was, because we talked about what marriage meant to
us so often and what that love looked like and
that soulmate feeling, and so I think if it had
(14:36):
just been a one off, it would have been really hurtful,
um in a way that was more personal. To find
out that it's you know, fifty different women or you know,
that's that's something that's just I can't comprehend, and it
says that it's it's a bigger issue than just him
(14:59):
wanting to have an affair. Again, thank you for answering it,
and you know and for your your honesty on this one,
because I listened to it, I said, I don't get
to know what would have been worse for Jen, but
I have to say you're absolutely right. When a person
is in a relationship and there's an affair with one person,
the immediate sense is what didn't I have? What was
I lacking? Why was I not enough? What is this
(15:20):
person have that's better? This was clearly something so massive
it was all him, and in a way, as you
dealt with devastation, betrayal, trauma, all of that at the
court of it, though you also were saying this, this
was not me. This was something much, much bigger. So
it was again a very unique situation, and I think
(15:41):
when survivors listened to it, I'm sure more than a
few of them thought. Not that I'd ever wish this
on anyone that said what this might have actually been
a more I don't know again, a less self blaming,
you know, less self harming situation of what they're doing
to themselves versus something and at this big level, yeah,
I think I would have felt worse about myself had so, yeah,
(16:03):
we will be right back with this conversation with Jen
and Andrea, So I know for me, again, so many
compelling things. So the conversations you had with the other
women who had been in relationships with or assaulted, and
to everyone listening to me talking, You've got to go
(16:24):
listen to their podcast Betrayal because these conversations are unbelievable.
But the other part that was incredibly compelling to me
was you speaking to him in the jailhouse phone conversations. Okay,
I was waiting, like, what do you have to say
for yourself? And how did this feel for Jen to
be having these conversations? So you asked him why he
(16:45):
did what he did? Was he aware that he hurt
other people? Was he aware of what he did to you?
What he did to them? And I felt, I mean,
I had my feeling I'd like to hear from you first.
Do you feel like he answered your question? No, not
at all. I had been waiting to have this conversation
with him. He had been promising that he would let
(17:06):
me speak with him. He just shut it down. And
then talking to him and asking him these questions and
hearing his response, I just knew he's not capable of
understanding the devastation he caused. Somehow, I think in his
mind he somehow made it okay, whether it's with the
(17:28):
students saying it was consensual, things like that. He just
he can't take responsibility or have empathy like we spoke
about before, And I just I got frustrated, to be honest,
and eventually just ended the call because what else could
(17:48):
I ask him? He's not aware enough. I don't think
you feel like he's not aware of his behavior, how
his behavior affects other people, which must have been so
shocking for you to recognize, because I'd imagine for the
seven years, because there were no red flags, you did
believe he was self aware. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. That revelation
(18:09):
in and of itself is actually quite massive. But as
though you think somebody knows how to read, and then
you find out for seven years he was lying about
being able to read. Right, They were able to put
together the clues enough to it seems like he could
read the book. But oh, he listened to something, and
so that's how he knew what the book was about.
This is somebody who was a great father, and so
he would think that he would just have this outpouring
(18:31):
of sorrow for what he's done. And I just haven't
heard it from him. There's another piece though, that really
jumped out at me. If you disagree, please tell me.
In that call with him, I felt like he never
expressed remorse. What he was doing was he was remained
on how he did it, and he even talks a
little bit about the why. I do remember him saying
(18:53):
I liked the attention. He did make that comment that
he actually liked getting the attention. I was like, okay,
that's a it's not a satisfying answer, and it certainly
put one more brick in the wall of me thinking
that this was a narcissistic personality. He talks a little
bit okay, I did it for attention, but he still
retains entitled anger at the system that that he if
(19:14):
I remember correctly, that he was angry that there was
supposed to be maybe an earlier release date, but an
additional sort of victims impact statement led to increased time,
and he literally had entitled anger. So there was zero shifts,
zero remorse, no recognition of oh, okay, this is a
(19:35):
person's real pain. He talked about how terrible prison is
and was complaining about the conditions he was under, how
you couldn't get good therapy in prison, so it was
very much about him. He was the frame of reference.
There was, though, no remorse, no ownership. I think after
you saw not just the not knowing his why, but
(19:58):
the next level up, which was not having remorse, how
did that leave you feeling about him? How did you
view him? It's so sad to me because I loved
this person. I had this beautiful marriage with this person,
and then, you know, to discover this whole other side,
(20:18):
and then to hear him say something like I hope
everybody has moved on. I just want everybody to move on.
One of the most challenging aspects of surviving a betrayal
by someone who seemingly lacks empathy or awareness of how
others are affected is their desire to just move on.
As Jen said, he said I hope everybody's moved on
(20:42):
when she talked with him. It's as though the pain
caused by his actions is an inconvenience to still have
to deal with and that people can just put it
behind them. This idea of just moving on is reflective
of the lack of empathy that we observe in narcissistic
personalities and can leave survivors feeling as though they are
(21:03):
the ones that aren't healing fast enough or not letting go.
You know, it's just him not understanding what he did
to the student first and foremost, and what she's had
to go through and how this is going to impact
her for the rest of her life. And I believe
that she's strong and resilient and she will use this
(21:27):
for something good. It's just it's really sad to me,
to be honest, because it's just not the person that
I knew for you. To me, this went beyond betrayal trauma.
It was a death. It was the death of a
person and replaced by a person that on any day
of your life you would not have given the time
(21:47):
of day. And so there was not just that experience
of the trauma around betrayal, but also the grief because
it was a grief of your marriage, a grief of
the life you thought you would have, a grief of
a future. And in any time somebody has one of
these toxic relationships, however it unfold, the grief is often
overwhelming and unrecognized. People don't see his grief because the
(22:09):
person is still walking around alive in the world. Andrea,
how did you feel after listening to the jailhouse phone
calls that ended up in the podcast and probably more
than what we even heard, and then lack of remorse
and the lack of ownership. How did you feel about this?
So how did you process this? I felt sad for Jen.
(22:31):
I felt sad for Rachel, the sexual sult victim, that
he did feel a sense of injustice, that he had
a serviceful term, which was like just mind blowing that
for some reason, because he was a Teacher of the
Year and served on the Air National Guard and he
(22:53):
had all of these like trophies on his shelf, that
he should be entitled to something different and not held
accountable for actions made me sad for the victim there
made me sad for Jen. I also was not necessarily
surprised because this is something that I can't remember if
we use this in the show, but I remember after
he was sentenced, he wanted to have a conversation with
(23:17):
the students parents and apologize for that. But it felt
very much, oh like I'm being sentenced, but I'm just
just felt like a It just felt performative and for
him and not for the parents, and the parents are like,
I don't want to talk to you. You assaulted my child,
So just like learning about him over a very long time,
(23:41):
I just I'm not surprised, but it's still sad. I'm
disappointed because he is out and I feel like Jenn
and I are empathetic people. We still feel for other
human beings, and it's just disappointing that one can't take
a hard look at their behavior and are incapable of
(24:05):
feeling remorse or incapable of seeing how really truly owning
the collateral damage some people are. But I didn't feel
true ownership of the collateral damage. It's like he could
have thought, what if this had happened to my daughter,
how would I have reacted? And just I don't think
that's ever been a thought in his head. I think
(24:26):
somehow he is justifying what he did. Also, was a
little fascinated with people's coping mechanisms. It just was like
an interesting, fascinating look into coping mechanisms. And I don't
know if he's doing what he's doing for to cope
and get through, but I certainly don't feel like it's
necessarily helpful in the long run. What do you mean
(24:48):
by that? What his coping mechanisms were meaning when in
in the jail house call, you know, gent spoke to
two is, I just want every want to move forward
and generally pressim is like maybe the student did write
a letter and we knew that she did write a
letter to keep him in the prol board, and he
was like, that's irrelevant. It was in his inability to
(25:09):
really sit with the fact that she was a victim
as opposed to like, on paper she was under age,
he was an adult like that. It's a formality. It's
like a systematic justice formality, as opposed to know she's
truly a victim here she was actually assaulted, she was manipulated,
(25:31):
and so to me, I don't think there's much gravity
in what it really is, and I think that there
may be some coping there. And it was just I
don't know, I don't know if that makes sense, but
but it's almost if he really thought about what he
had done, and like I said, he would say, oh,
that person didn't mean anything to me, yet he's writing
(25:53):
to her, I love you. If he really thought about
what he did to people, then maybe he wouldn't be
able to cope as well as he is. So he's
putting on this shiny hat and just gonna be positive
and move forward, or its pathological levels of denial, rationalization, justification,
and compartmentalization. You know, those are the four pillars that
(26:15):
are keeping this whole structure up in like a scaffold.
You're absolutely right. If those things were taken away and
there had to be true accountability in some ways, the
person would psychologically collapse, which isn't necessarily a bad thing,
but it's very rare for somebody with this kind of
approach to the world and to other people to have
that turnaround, especially when something as intense as a prison
(26:38):
sentence happens and a life has changed permanently and there's
not the change, then I'm not banking on that happening.
So he was in prison for four years and still
just came out not feeling any remorse or not showing it.
My session with Jen and Andrea will continue after this break.
(27:02):
When a betrayal experience happens like yours, obviously you Gen
and the women he heard, Rachel, the assault survivor, all
of these people experienced the most primary betrayals, but there
were a lot of people around you. You yourself said
you were surrounded by supportive community, and this community knew him.
How are you setting a boundary for yourself? Because you know,
all I was for you to keep healing and feel
(27:24):
good and safe in the world. How are you setting
those boundaries because now that he's out in the world,
he's out in the world, and so what are you doing?
Because I know a lot of people wonder, Okay, something
like this happened in your case, it was four years
of prison in and out. For other people, it's just
a betrayal. Relationship ends and they're still walking around the
world with this person. What what do you intend to
do to keep yourself safe psychologically, psychologically? I think staying
(27:48):
away from him. Had those moments lately. Now that he's
out where, I thought maybe I should reach out to him.
And I'm sure they're going to people say why would
you ever want to talk to him again? But it's
still hard to wrap my head around these two different people,
and so part of me some empathy. But then I
(28:09):
come back to my senses and I realize, you're never
going to get the answers you want. This is not
somebody who is safe to be around. He is going
to manipulate and lie as best he can. I think
that's another reason for putting this podcast out there, and
the truth it's so that other people in his world
(28:30):
and his orbit that he's talking to know the full
story and not just what he's sharing with them. So
I'm just I take it day by day and just
remember who he is and just try to move forward.
One theme that was raised, and you had an expert
even talking about this quite a bit on your podcast,
(28:52):
was the idea of betrayal trauma. Did that framework help
you understanding it from the framework of betrayal trauma? Absolutely?
When I got the definition when Kim said, you're going
through betrayal trauma, and I could read books about betrayal trauma,
it helps so much because then I realized that other
(29:14):
people have gone through this. It affects you psychologically, emotionally, physically,
all sorts of things, and the way I would react
sometimes after it happened, I could go back to, this
is a symptom of betrayal trauma. So to put a
definition on it, it just it helped it make sense
(29:35):
what this story has revealed. A person who lacks empathy,
who is entitled, who is grandiose, who engages in denial,
who is admiration, attention and validation seeking, who doesn't think
about the consequences of their actions. Backing up into that
neighborhood called narcissism. When you throw lack of remorse on
(29:58):
top of that, now in the neighborhood called potentially sociopathy
or even psychopathy, the lack of remorse is a real
ringer of what differentiates the two. Narcissistic people actually feel
tremendous sense of shame when they hurt other people. They'll
still do it, but the shame comes up and the
shame for them comes out as rage. But it is
an activation of shame for a person who's more in
(30:18):
the realm of sociopathy psychopathy. Even when they're caught in
the big bad thing they've done, the violation of others rights,
they're very quick. They just go to the defend, justify, rationalized.
I am curious, though, would having had that framework in
addition to betrayal trauma but understanding narcissism, psychopathy that kind
(30:38):
of thing, would that have been helpful or actually not?
I always thought that if I just had the answer
to what is he and Andrea and I discussed this
over the years. Can somebody speak to what he is
and put a name on it. I really thought that
would help, but I think it's just so many different
things that I just I can't. I just have to
(31:01):
let that go until somebody can diagnose him. But it's
so interesting to hear what you have to say. And
the empathy part, because I never thought about it like that. Yeah, No,
it's a complete lack of empathy because I often say,
you know, infidelity always reflects a lack of empathy, because
even if it feels good in the moment, it means
you were able to cut off any sense of feeling
(31:24):
for how this could affect another person. To me, that
is a lapse of empathy, and that, to me is
actually one of the most harmful psychological spaces a person
can occupy. As you went through this and you were
talking to people, did anyone ever throw you a hypothesis
of something like sex addiction? Did that ever come up
as part of the conversation? Definitely? I think in the
beginning that's what I leaned towards. I wanted to define it,
(31:46):
to give it a name so that I could understand
it and read about it. And I even asked him,
actually I asked him right before his arrest. Are you
a sex addict? Just flew out of my mouth, and
he said no, and he's denied it for sense, But
that's got to be part of it. To have that
much sex that often and that deviant, I feel, again,
(32:10):
I can't diagnose him, but I think there's sex addiction
in there. It's such a complicated issue. I don't know
that I've ever really seen this case of sex addiction
without the narcissism stuff sitting right next to it, right,
because there's a complete dehumanization and disregard for someone else.
There's different schools of thoughts, So I can't say what
I'm saying is right. I'm just saying that I've always
seen those things happen together. I was just curious if
(32:31):
it came up. This is a big piece I want
to bring up. I was listening to one of the
last few episodes of the podcast where people were actually
raising their questions there how much they enjoy the podcast,
but you also got some critiques, And the one that
jumped out at me and that actually I sat with
for a long time was that there was some pushback
(32:52):
on the use of the term grooming and applying that
to anything but a relationship with somebody who would be
designated as vulnerable almost under the law, like a minor,
And for that term to be used in an adult
relationship was an issue. What are your thoughts on that?
Because I know I sat and thought. I sat with
that one for a long time. So this term grooming,
(33:14):
like gent said, I want people to understand this, and
then the use of the term seemed to raise controversy.
So could you unpack that a little bit? Yeah, I
think it was the reason why we sought out an
expert in this field to educate ourselves and our audience.
And the biggest thing that we learned was it knows
no age or gender like it's a specific action. And
(33:41):
I spoke to it earlier, where you are seeking vulnerabilities
and individuals building a relationship, building a rapport, creating this
identity for yourself in relation to somebody else so they
feel safe in order to understand their vulnerabilities, understand their entryway,
and work into that to expose whatever you need to
(34:06):
get whatever you need from them. And that was a
really hard email to get when we got an email
about grooming. Language is important, and absolutely it is, but
The biggest thing that we learned is you could be
sixty and still be groomed. You could have a lifetime
of experience and still deal with this. And it's also
(34:28):
important to note that we were not comparing one person's
experience or the other or putting them on a teer.
We were just exploring the multi different relationships that this
individual had with other women. And so I know that
some people need to be able to say this one
was worse and these weren't as worse. But it was
more about exploring how grooming exists in different relationships with
(34:52):
different people with different vulnerabilities. And you can be groomed
when you're fifteen fifty. There really is no age or
gender or boundaries there. So we're coming towards the end
of our time. I want to ask you this, Jen,
because you said something so poignant to me, which is
(35:13):
marriage mattered to me. I loved the idea of marriage.
I believed in marriage, And again, yours might be one
of the more profound stories of relational betrayal that many
people have heard. How do you feel about those things now?
How do you feel about marriage and and love and
commitment and all of that? How has that shaped your view.
(35:36):
I'm not a pessimist. I don't want this to alter
who I am, and I get excited about love and relationships.
Do I think I'll get married again. I don't know.
It's going to depend on that person, but I believe
I can find somebody to trust. I don't think all
(35:58):
of that was damaged. I'm excited about falling in love again.
It's amazing. It's just who I am. I can't let
this person who had such a huge issue affect the
rest of my life. I'm so glad survivors are hearing
this and people who people are listening to this podcast
or hearing this, because I think a lot of people
(36:19):
feel as though that's it. I'm out, and there's a
sort of a want to shut a door in the
name of safety. There's a tremendous courage to saying I
am going to do this again. I believe in this
thing called love. But one of the big pieces is
this isn't me, this was another person. I don't blame
myself for this, and I have always believed working in
this space with individuals and with clients is I've got
(36:41):
to break through that self blame space with them together
We're going to get them through that, because on the
other side, people after a variety of betrayal experiences can
believe in love and fall in love profoundly, but with
a different kind of I'm a wisdom about them, That's
what I would call it. What about you, Andrea, though,
while that obviously this didn't happen to you, you had
a front row seed if you were living in this
(37:01):
betrayal story day after day for a very long time,
how has it affected how you think about relationships? My
middle name is hope, and I believe in the Fleabag quote,
to love someone feels like hope, and I would never
want to get rid of that. I would never want
to rid that experience from my life. And so I
know that Jen is hopeful that she'll find someone, and
(37:24):
so that's enough for me. If she can have that attitude,
then so can I. That's it's amazing, I mean, it
really is. And I think so many people would be
afraid if I was betrayed, I'll never come back from it, right,
That's always the fear. And I think that what people
need to understand is that a lot of us are
psyches are actually often made of tougher stuff, especially when
(37:44):
you can see that is actually not you. Do you
have any questions for me? Dispense fall into the category
of a covert narcissist? Would you say so? Just to
be clear. So there's such a tricky terminology. So vulnerable
narcissis him. So there's grandiose narcissism, and that's our sort
of textbook in the dictionary charming charismatic narcissist. The vulnerable
(38:07):
narcissist is almost the flip of that is sullen, resentful.
They feel aggrieved, They're angry at the world. They feel
like victims. Now the covert overt part is about overt narcissism.
Is aren't I great? Don't you feel lucky to be
with me? They say things like that. The covert stuff
is the stuff we don't see. It's the feelings they
(38:28):
would have, the thoughts they'd have. They might be thinking,
how come nobody thinks I'm great? How come no one
can see how great I am? Obviously that might manifest
his anger and things like that. I think in his case, again,
if I was just a graduate student reviewing a case
in the professor said, what do you think my first
hypothesis is more in the sociopathy kind of narcissism psychopathy realm.
(38:49):
The lack of remorse to me is really striking here.
And I don't know history. Anyone really thinking about this
would need to know all of that to be able
to craft what who this person is. But if we
focus solely on the behavior, solely on the behavior of
long term deceit almost not quite aliases like the different
faces he put out there, taking an advantage of people
(39:12):
not following the rules, breaking rules with little remorse. That
definitely that behavior conforms to more of what we consider
to be psychopathy. And the reason it feels hidden is
because somebody who's so skilled at lying is actually able
to put forth these other faces. And if the whole
machine is working well, that means everyone is actually seeing
(39:33):
this really, if you will, charming version of this person
all around, because the person's needs are being met so
consistently and for a long time, many years, the entire
machine actually sadly ran exactly the way he wanted it to.
That's why everyone was seeing this best face. As long
as like someone like him feel safe and validated, everybody's
(39:54):
going to think that he hung the moon. That's the challenge.
But all of these personalities, they're all very close to
each other. That why we use the word antagonistic, and
that big word antagonistic can be really in your face,
look how great I am. And it can also be
quite hidden, which is what you experienced. And again your
story is I've never seen one this striking in terms
(40:14):
of all the people out there who are mad. I
can't believe I missed the red flags. I just must
be a fool. You are a living reminder that the
red flags aren't always there. So that means though, that
things can go wrong, and trust yourself when they are
going wrong. Yours that was really in your face. But
even for other folks saying this doesn't feel good anymore,
(40:35):
But I didn't see red flags, so that must mean
that this is okay. You've got to trust yourself all along.
And just because there weren't red flags doesn't mean it
wasn't a toxic relationship. The response to your podcast was extraordinary.
I hope everybody listens to it because I think that
it really is that reminder that many times what we
think is in front of us is not And that's
(40:57):
not a statement on us. It really is about the
capacity of some people to go through the world very
differently than the rest of us. So thank you, thank
you again for the gift of your time. Jen, thank you,
and thank you, thank you so much. It was such
is very enlightening speaking with you. Thank you, thank you
so much. I do it's amazing. Here are my takeaways
(41:17):
from my conversation with Jen and Andrea. Betrayal trauma was
a major theme in Jen's story and in the Betrayal podcast.
It is a frequent theme in narcissistic relationships as well.
It is a unique relationship trauma that comes from having
trust violated, living with chronic deceit, and enduring consistent gas lighting.
(41:42):
The fallout of betrayal trauma is quite consistent with what
we observe in people living with narcissistic abuse, and is
an important framework for survivors to have when they experience
massive breaches of trust and don't know which way is up.
In my next takeaway, there is no simple explanation for betrayal,
(42:05):
and certainly not for one on this scale. It's too
simplistic to say narcissistic people betray For survivors, hearing that
is often not enough. Personality is certainly one factor, but
other things may be at play, like disregulation other behavioral dynamics,
but personality styles like narcissism, sociopathy, or psychopathy are often
(42:30):
part of this picture above all else. It is so
important for survivors to know that another person's betrayal is
never your fault, even though you are the one managing
the pain and the fallout. Jen resisted the temptation to
make it just about why he was the way he
was or why he did what he did, and instead
(42:54):
she focused on what actually happened and how to not
be defined by it. In my next takeaway, While the
term may be controversial, the process is pretty clear. Whether
it is termed grooming or indoctrination, or capitalizing on vulnerabilities,
it is the process of a manipulative person praying upon
(43:17):
a person's vulnerabilities or advantaging their own power to get
what they want from them. It is, in fact a
process and is the dark side of other dynamics and
patterns such as love bombing. People can be vulnerable to
this process, regardless of their age or life experience. The
person doing the grooming or the indoctrination uses techniques such
(43:41):
as praise, making someone feel special, telling them that they
love them, or that this is a once in a
lifetime experience, and then mixing that with being very attentive
and then pulling back, leaving the other person feeling that
they would do anything to get that manipulation her back.
Awareness is key here because it's not as though our
(44:05):
vulnerabilities or life circumstances will change, but looking for other
problematic dynamics that can accompany grooming, like isolation, undertaking a
relationship in secrecy, not being brought into all aspects of
a person's life. These can be important to understand this
dynamic and protect ourselves and others from it. In my
(44:29):
next takeaway, Jen's story is a reminder that even when
there is a massive betrayal that affected not only her
but the other people he affected as well as friends
and family. While it may feel that we can't come
back from it, these experiences do not have to steal
(44:49):
our empathy and compassion. While Jen had to go through
her own process of working through her feelings about adult
women who knowingly entered into a relationship up with her husband,
she found that the process ultimately didn't steal her empathy
and compassion or her belief in love. Interestingly, she did
(45:09):
have empathy for the other woman as she learned more
about how people like her ex husband work and manipulate,
and ultimately she didn't lose her belief in love and relationships.
These betrayal relationships do not have to steal our futures
from us. They have already harmed us enough. A big
(45:34):
thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valen Jethrow,
Ellen Rakaton, and Dr Rominey de Vassila. And thank you
to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Mara Dela Rosa,
and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our
editors and sound engineers Devin Donnaghe and Calvin Bailiff
This podcast should not be used as a substitute for
medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek
independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare
professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This
(00:23):
episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people.
The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the
podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do
not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, I
Heart Media, or their employees. I'm almost glad it happened
(00:47):
the way it did or it was such a big scale,
because it helped me to realize it wasn't me. It
would have happened regardless. It was happening before he and
I were to get I think if he had had
an intimate relationship with one person, it would have been
even more devastating than it was. We have been hearing
(01:09):
from Jennifer Faceon and Andrea Gunning from the podcast Betrayal,
a story of betrayal that isn't just shocking for its
size and scope, but with how unexpected it was. Jen
didn't see any red flags, so when her world came
crashing down, she was left with the pain and trauma
(01:29):
of making sense of it all. While betrayal is present
in almost all narcissistic relationships, their podcast was not about narcissism.
Jen and Andrea were more focused on telling the story
of the survivors and not focusing on the behavior and
character of the betrayer. The recognition that whether it is
(01:50):
one betrayal or many, is that there are some predictable
patterns in manipulative and deceptive relationships, grooming and indoctrination, lack
of empathy, entitlement, and a bottomless supply of denial and rationalization.
Let's keep exploring how narcissism showed up in Gen's story,
(02:14):
So Andrea, upon listening to the story, one of the
most powerful parts of the show to me as a
listener was when the women involved in these accusations spoke
with Jen. Right, that, in many ways is the moment
that many people who have experienced any form of relational
betrayal or infidelity. Would I ever speak to this person,
(02:34):
Would I ever want to speak to this person who
was involved in my betrayal? Right? Can you shed some
light on some of the decisions that were made to
bring these women to your podcast to actually have these
conversations with them, because it was incredibly powerful. I think
when Jen and I sat down for the very first time,
she was dealing with a lot of anger and a
(02:57):
lot of anger, a lot of misplaced anger. And this
is not the first time I've set this in front
of Jen. Right, there was a lot of not understanding
these women, and I felt like, I want us to
get to the bottom of that anger, and the best
way to do that is to confront it and talk
to these women and really hear their point of view,
(03:19):
because I felt like who she was truly angry with
was her husband, Spencer. I had just met Jen in
and listening to her story, I felt like, it's a
horrible experience. I truly believe she didn't see anything, but
I know that these women had their own individual experience,
(03:40):
as I just knew in my gut. So I felt
like it was helpful for her to understand the man
that they had a relationship with because she owed it
to herself in the time she had invested to really
know who this person was. So that was really the
decision to sit down with these other women and Jen
was game and the women were too, So I have
(04:01):
a lot of admiration at her bravery and their bravery.
So interesting, Andrea, how you framed as misplaced anger, because
I think that anytime somebody experiences any form of relational
infidelity or betrayal, they do have anger at the other party.
I mean, it's I think it's just it's built in,
and I think it's part of the overwhelm of the process.
How did that shift for you over time? Jen, Because
(04:24):
I have to say, I have yet to meet the
person who out the gate when they learn about a
betrayal or an infidelity, say like I'm only mad at
my partner. Oh, that other person is blamed free right.
We will never get away from that sense of co complicity,
especially if there's awareness that they knew you existed. I
think there's sometimes a little more empathy if that other
(04:46):
person was sold such a story that you know, with
a different identity, and so there was no even way
to no look at social media or any of that,
no wedding ring, all those things that we might say, Okay,
this person was completely completely scammed. But it's sounds like
some of these women actually definitely knew you existed. So
how did you move from that anger towards the women
(05:10):
who were having these relationships with him to shifting your
anger solely towards Spence, Because that's actually a really difficult shift.
It was in the beginning I learned a couple of
these women I knew had made a choice to have
an affair with my husband, and I was mad because
(05:33):
they were old enough to know better and they made
that decision. So I did have a lot of anger.
I think it was after really diving in and exploring
Spence's role in those affairs and how he manipulated them.
He lied to them. He would tell women that he
(05:54):
loved them, shower them with compliments. I started to realize
is that, yes, they had a choice on whether or
not to participate, but they were also manipulated to believing
that they were special to this person. And I felt
for that. It felt for them to be lied to
(06:18):
and just deceived so horribly. Reading the things that he
would write to them and say, it was just awful.
So I started feeling some empathy toward them because I
started really realizing how he operated. And I think it
was important that you can hold two thoughts at once,
(06:40):
right like, you can still be angry but also understand
the mechanics of how the relationship came to be. And
in some cases there were women that were racked with shame.
It was just we're just wearing that shame every day,
you know. The one woman Hope wasn't even excited to
get married because of the shame that she carried. And
so I never wanted Jen to say I'm not angry anymore,
(07:04):
because you can hold those two thoughts. You can be
angry but understanding. You can have those two feelings. And
I think that's what's so challenging when you have these
kinds of antagonistic, manipulative relationships, is that multiple things can
be true at the same time, and I think we
often have trouble holding multiple truths simultaneously, especially when they
seem sort of at odds with each other. When I
was listening to the story, I was very struck by
(07:26):
how different the tenor of the conversation was when you
were talking with the person who was a student at
the time of the relationship versus the person who was
an adult woman internally for you, emotionally for you. How
would those experiences different, Because I can't see how they
wouldn't be different. They must have felt so different to
talk to a person who was still a minor when
(07:47):
all this has happened, versus a person like you said,
who knew you, who was making a different kind of
a choice. What was happening inside of you when you
had those two different conversations and speaking with the student,
I just did not hold her responsible in any way.
I don't care. Maybe if she had a crush on
(08:08):
him at the time, whatever, none of that was her
responsibility in this. He was a teacher, and what he
did to someone so young was just it's devastating. It's sickening,
you know, to think about he was with the sixteen
(08:30):
year old. I remember how I was in high school,
and so I kind of thought, what if that had
happened to me. The most important thing for me was
for her to know that I did not hold her
responsible for it. I did not put any blame on
her for it. She was completely a victim. And then
(08:50):
in speaking with some of the adult women, they did
have some responsibility in saying, yes, they knew he was married.
I wasn't. I was empathetic, but I couldn't solely put
the blame on spence because they did participate. If that
makes sense, it absolutely makes sense. Not only does it
(09:11):
make sense, I think a lot of people would have
found those conversations difficult, if not impossible, to have. Those
were such human conversations. Your sense of restraint was remarkable.
Your empathy came through. But I will tell you this,
I could hear the edge in your voice when you
were talking to the adult women, which humanized you to me,
because if you were just like I get it, I'd
be like, oh come on now. But I heard the
(09:31):
edge and I thought, Okay, this is actually remarkable restraint.
I wouldn't have been able to do that. We heard
the humanity of it. But it sounds upon listening to
your podcast, he uses a similar ground game with every
person he was trying to draw into one of these relationships.
Can you say more about that? Yeah, it was absolutely
the same thing. He would tell them, Oh, you're so beautiful.
(09:55):
It was that same flirting. It was like I just
picture him casting that line out and seeing who would bite,
and so many women did bite. And the way he
would talk to them on text and string them along
and just make them feel like they were the only one.
And that was another thing in talking with them, they
(10:17):
didn't know that they were one of fifty sixty. So
when I found out the whole spectrum of how many people,
that was one of the reasons I think I was
so angry. And then talking to them individually, I got
to see that humanity and what they had gone through
(10:38):
and what they were feeling because of it. And I
think that one thing that he was very good at doing,
which groomers and narcissists are very good at doing, is
identifying vulnerabilities in other people and using it to their advantage.
So with the high school student that was sexually assaulted
and we say sexual thought because it was adjudicated and
(11:00):
the state of Georgia, and that's what he was convicted of,
he used her faith against her. This is God wanted
this to happen. He knew that in and he worked
that angle with Jen's friends. She had just come off
of being pregnant and was feeling like she was trapped
in her house and like this mother's solitude and didn't
(11:22):
feel pretty and he knew that. So he was very
masterful and really identifying vulnerabilities that are very different, individualistic
to each woman, but working that relationship identifying those vulnerabilities
and capitalizing on them, right, and that, right, there's a
definition of manipulation. And he was such a personable person that,
(11:44):
if you want to use the word flirt, he flirted
with everybody, or he was just kind to everybody and
engaging and all of that. And I think that's another
thing he used, was his personality, because who would think that,
I know, I had another friend and that he had
reached out to and she just kind of stopped it
(12:06):
and thought and never send anything to me, because she
just thought, oh, that's just spense. He's just so nice.
He didn't he wasn't really meaning anything by and so
she was able to set a boundary because she was
able to set a boundary. And you're right, we don't
understand how seductive niceness is. We often think of the
big ticket seduction, the sort of the the swagger and
(12:27):
the arrogance. But it's nice. I mean, you know, and
there is somebody with this kind of manipulative personality who
is nice. I cannot think of a more dangerous combination.
Because we want our villains to look like villains, right,
we want him to look like jerks and me and
almost have a villain. Look, and I'm not hearing that
(12:49):
any of that was here. And then again, manipulation is
a way for a person to get what they want
while making the other person feel like it's good for them.
That it's the core of manipulation. And that's what you
were saying was happening over and over again. This is
meant to be, this is what God would want. You're
so pretty, you deserve more attention, and to figure that
(13:10):
out in a way it had to have felt like,
I'd imagine I'm speculating like a game for him. It's
almost like closing a sale. Sales is manipulation, and so
too was this. So it's really the scale of this
was so stunning to me. I mean, I've heard betrayal
stories before, but this, the scale of this one was.
This wasn't just as as though it was behaving inappropriately
as a teacher and he had an affair, or the
(13:31):
more classical story of a person has in a relationship
and their partner has an affair with one person. The
scale of this, the number of people being communicated with
having sexual contact with you know, the the breath and
the depth of it. Again, you're gonna have to speculate
because you haven't had the other scenario. Do you ever
think about, well, how this would feel different than if
(13:52):
it was sort of your standard. I have a husband
and he cheated on me. That is such a good question,
because I've thought about it a lot. This sound crazy,
but I'm almost glad it happened the way it did,
or it was such a big scale, because it helped
me to realize it wasn't me. It would have happened
(14:13):
regardless it was happening before he and I were together.
I think if he had had an intimate relationship with
one person, it would have been even more devastating than
it was, because we talked about what marriage meant to
us so often and what that love looked like and
that soulmate feeling, and so I think if it had
(14:36):
just been a one off, it would have been really hurtful,
um in a way that was more personal. To find
out that it's you know, fifty different women or you know,
that's that's something that's just I can't comprehend, and it
says that it's it's a bigger issue than just him
(14:59):
wanting to have an affair. Again, thank you for answering it,
and you know and for your your honesty on this one,
because I listened to it, I said, I don't get
to know what would have been worse for Jen, but
I have to say you're absolutely right. When a person
is in a relationship and there's an affair with one person,
the immediate sense is what didn't I have? What was
I lacking? Why was I not enough? What is this
(15:20):
person have that's better? This was clearly something so massive
it was all him, and in a way, as you
dealt with devastation, betrayal, trauma, all of that at the
court of it, though you also were saying this, this
was not me. This was something much, much bigger. So
it was again a very unique situation, and I think
(15:41):
when survivors listened to it, I'm sure more than a
few of them thought. Not that I'd ever wish this
on anyone that said what this might have actually been
a more I don't know again, a less self blaming,
you know, less self harming situation of what they're doing
to themselves versus something and at this big level, yeah,
I think I would have felt worse about myself had so, yeah,
(16:03):
we will be right back with this conversation with Jen
and Andrea, So I know for me, again, so many
compelling things. So the conversations you had with the other
women who had been in relationships with or assaulted, and
to everyone listening to me talking, You've got to go
(16:24):
listen to their podcast Betrayal because these conversations are unbelievable.
But the other part that was incredibly compelling to me
was you speaking to him in the jailhouse phone conversations. Okay,
I was waiting, like, what do you have to say
for yourself? And how did this feel for Jen to
be having these conversations? So you asked him why he
(16:45):
did what he did? Was he aware that he hurt
other people? Was he aware of what he did to you?
What he did to them? And I felt, I mean,
I had my feeling I'd like to hear from you first.
Do you feel like he answered your question? No, not
at all. I had been waiting to have this conversation
with him. He had been promising that he would let
(17:06):
me speak with him. He just shut it down. And
then talking to him and asking him these questions and
hearing his response, I just knew he's not capable of
understanding the devastation he caused. Somehow, I think in his
mind he somehow made it okay, whether it's with the
(17:28):
students saying it was consensual, things like that. He just
he can't take responsibility or have empathy like we spoke
about before, And I just I got frustrated, to be honest,
and eventually just ended the call because what else could
(17:48):
I ask him? He's not aware enough. I don't think
you feel like he's not aware of his behavior, how
his behavior affects other people, which must have been so
shocking for you to recognize, because I'd imagine for the
seven years, because there were no red flags, you did
believe he was self aware. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. That revelation
(18:09):
in and of itself is actually quite massive. But as
though you think somebody knows how to read, and then
you find out for seven years he was lying about
being able to read. Right, They were able to put
together the clues enough to it seems like he could
read the book. But oh, he listened to something, and
so that's how he knew what the book was about.
This is somebody who was a great father, and so
he would think that he would just have this outpouring
(18:31):
of sorrow for what he's done. And I just haven't
heard it from him. There's another piece though, that really
jumped out at me. If you disagree, please tell me.
In that call with him, I felt like he never
expressed remorse. What he was doing was he was remained
on how he did it, and he even talks a
little bit about the why. I do remember him saying
(18:53):
I liked the attention. He did make that comment that
he actually liked getting the attention. I was like, okay,
that's a it's not a satisfying answer, and it certainly
put one more brick in the wall of me thinking
that this was a narcissistic personality. He talks a little
bit okay, I did it for attention, but he still
retains entitled anger at the system that that he if
(19:14):
I remember correctly, that he was angry that there was
supposed to be maybe an earlier release date, but an
additional sort of victims impact statement led to increased time,
and he literally had entitled anger. So there was zero shifts,
zero remorse, no recognition of oh, okay, this is a
(19:35):
person's real pain. He talked about how terrible prison is
and was complaining about the conditions he was under, how
you couldn't get good therapy in prison, so it was
very much about him. He was the frame of reference.
There was, though, no remorse, no ownership. I think after
you saw not just the not knowing his why, but
(19:58):
the next level up, which was not having remorse, how
did that leave you feeling about him? How did you
view him? It's so sad to me because I loved
this person. I had this beautiful marriage with this person,
and then, you know, to discover this whole other side,
(20:18):
and then to hear him say something like I hope
everybody has moved on. I just want everybody to move on.
One of the most challenging aspects of surviving a betrayal
by someone who seemingly lacks empathy or awareness of how
others are affected is their desire to just move on.
As Jen said, he said I hope everybody's moved on
(20:42):
when she talked with him. It's as though the pain
caused by his actions is an inconvenience to still have
to deal with and that people can just put it
behind them. This idea of just moving on is reflective
of the lack of empathy that we observe in narcissistic
personalities and can leave survivors feeling as though they are
(21:03):
the ones that aren't healing fast enough or not letting go.
You know, it's just him not understanding what he did
to the student first and foremost, and what she's had
to go through and how this is going to impact
her for the rest of her life. And I believe
that she's strong and resilient and she will use this
(21:27):
for something good. It's just it's really sad to me,
to be honest, because it's just not the person that
I knew for you. To me, this went beyond betrayal trauma.
It was a death. It was the death of a
person and replaced by a person that on any day
of your life you would not have given the time
(21:47):
of day. And so there was not just that experience
of the trauma around betrayal, but also the grief because
it was a grief of your marriage, a grief of
the life you thought you would have, a grief of
a future. And in any time somebody has one of
these toxic relationships, however it unfold, the grief is often
overwhelming and unrecognized. People don't see his grief because the
(22:09):
person is still walking around alive in the world. Andrea,
how did you feel after listening to the jailhouse phone
calls that ended up in the podcast and probably more
than what we even heard, and then lack of remorse
and the lack of ownership. How did you feel about this?
So how did you process this? I felt sad for Jen.
(22:31):
I felt sad for Rachel, the sexual sult victim, that
he did feel a sense of injustice, that he had
a serviceful term, which was like just mind blowing that
for some reason, because he was a Teacher of the
Year and served on the Air National Guard and he
(22:53):
had all of these like trophies on his shelf, that
he should be entitled to something different and not held
accountable for actions made me sad for the victim there
made me sad for Jen. I also was not necessarily
surprised because this is something that I can't remember if
we use this in the show, but I remember after
he was sentenced, he wanted to have a conversation with
(23:17):
the students parents and apologize for that. But it felt
very much, oh like I'm being sentenced, but I'm just
just felt like a It just felt performative and for
him and not for the parents, and the parents are like,
I don't want to talk to you. You assaulted my child,
So just like learning about him over a very long time,
(23:41):
I just I'm not surprised, but it's still sad. I'm
disappointed because he is out and I feel like Jenn
and I are empathetic people. We still feel for other
human beings, and it's just disappointing that one can't take
a hard look at their behavior and are incapable of
(24:05):
feeling remorse or incapable of seeing how really truly owning
the collateral damage some people are. But I didn't feel
true ownership of the collateral damage. It's like he could
have thought, what if this had happened to my daughter,
how would I have reacted? And just I don't think
that's ever been a thought in his head. I think
(24:26):
somehow he is justifying what he did. Also, was a
little fascinated with people's coping mechanisms. It just was like
an interesting, fascinating look into coping mechanisms. And I don't
know if he's doing what he's doing for to cope
and get through, but I certainly don't feel like it's
necessarily helpful in the long run. What do you mean
(24:48):
by that? What his coping mechanisms were meaning when in
in the jail house call, you know, gent spoke to
two is, I just want every want to move forward
and generally pressim is like maybe the student did write
a letter and we knew that she did write a
letter to keep him in the prol board, and he
was like, that's irrelevant. It was in his inability to
(25:09):
really sit with the fact that she was a victim
as opposed to like, on paper she was under age,
he was an adult like that. It's a formality. It's
like a systematic justice formality, as opposed to know she's
truly a victim here she was actually assaulted, she was manipulated,
(25:31):
and so to me, I don't think there's much gravity
in what it really is, and I think that there
may be some coping there. And it was just I
don't know, I don't know if that makes sense, but
but it's almost if he really thought about what he
had done, and like I said, he would say, oh,
that person didn't mean anything to me, yet he's writing
(25:53):
to her, I love you. If he really thought about
what he did to people, then maybe he wouldn't be
able to cope as well as he is. So he's
putting on this shiny hat and just gonna be positive
and move forward, or its pathological levels of denial, rationalization, justification,
and compartmentalization. You know, those are the four pillars that
(26:15):
are keeping this whole structure up in like a scaffold.
You're absolutely right. If those things were taken away and
there had to be true accountability in some ways, the
person would psychologically collapse, which isn't necessarily a bad thing,
but it's very rare for somebody with this kind of
approach to the world and to other people to have
that turnaround, especially when something as intense as a prison
(26:38):
sentence happens and a life has changed permanently and there's
not the change, then I'm not banking on that happening.
So he was in prison for four years and still
just came out not feeling any remorse or not showing it.
My session with Jen and Andrea will continue after this break.
(27:02):
When a betrayal experience happens like yours, obviously you Gen
and the women he heard, Rachel, the assault survivor, all
of these people experienced the most primary betrayals, but there
were a lot of people around you. You yourself said
you were surrounded by supportive community, and this community knew him.
How are you setting a boundary for yourself? Because you know,
all I was for you to keep healing and feel
(27:24):
good and safe in the world. How are you setting
those boundaries because now that he's out in the world,
he's out in the world, and so what are you doing?
Because I know a lot of people wonder, Okay, something
like this happened in your case, it was four years
of prison in and out. For other people, it's just
a betrayal. Relationship ends and they're still walking around the
world with this person. What what do you intend to
do to keep yourself safe psychologically, psychologically? I think staying
(27:48):
away from him. Had those moments lately. Now that he's
out where, I thought maybe I should reach out to him.
And I'm sure they're going to people say why would
you ever want to talk to him again? But it's
still hard to wrap my head around these two different people,
and so part of me some empathy. But then I
(28:09):
come back to my senses and I realize, you're never
going to get the answers you want. This is not
somebody who is safe to be around. He is going
to manipulate and lie as best he can. I think
that's another reason for putting this podcast out there, and
the truth it's so that other people in his world
(28:30):
and his orbit that he's talking to know the full
story and not just what he's sharing with them. So
I'm just I take it day by day and just
remember who he is and just try to move forward.
One theme that was raised, and you had an expert
even talking about this quite a bit on your podcast,
(28:52):
was the idea of betrayal trauma. Did that framework help
you understanding it from the framework of betrayal trauma? Absolutely?
When I got the definition when Kim said, you're going
through betrayal trauma, and I could read books about betrayal trauma,
it helps so much because then I realized that other
(29:14):
people have gone through this. It affects you psychologically, emotionally, physically,
all sorts of things, and the way I would react
sometimes after it happened, I could go back to, this
is a symptom of betrayal trauma. So to put a
definition on it, it just it helped it make sense
(29:35):
what this story has revealed. A person who lacks empathy,
who is entitled, who is grandiose, who engages in denial,
who is admiration, attention and validation seeking, who doesn't think
about the consequences of their actions. Backing up into that
neighborhood called narcissism. When you throw lack of remorse on
(29:58):
top of that, now in the neighborhood called potentially sociopathy
or even psychopathy, the lack of remorse is a real
ringer of what differentiates the two. Narcissistic people actually feel
tremendous sense of shame when they hurt other people. They'll
still do it, but the shame comes up and the
shame for them comes out as rage. But it is
an activation of shame for a person who's more in
(30:18):
the realm of sociopathy psychopathy. Even when they're caught in
the big bad thing they've done, the violation of others rights,
they're very quick. They just go to the defend, justify, rationalized.
I am curious, though, would having had that framework in
addition to betrayal trauma but understanding narcissism, psychopathy that kind
(30:38):
of thing, would that have been helpful or actually not?
I always thought that if I just had the answer
to what is he and Andrea and I discussed this
over the years. Can somebody speak to what he is
and put a name on it. I really thought that
would help, but I think it's just so many different
things that I just I can't. I just have to
(31:01):
let that go until somebody can diagnose him. But it's
so interesting to hear what you have to say. And
the empathy part, because I never thought about it like that. Yeah, No,
it's a complete lack of empathy because I often say,
you know, infidelity always reflects a lack of empathy, because
even if it feels good in the moment, it means
you were able to cut off any sense of feeling
(31:24):
for how this could affect another person. To me, that
is a lapse of empathy, and that, to me is
actually one of the most harmful psychological spaces a person
can occupy. As you went through this and you were
talking to people, did anyone ever throw you a hypothesis
of something like sex addiction? Did that ever come up
as part of the conversation? Definitely? I think in the
beginning that's what I leaned towards. I wanted to define it,
(31:46):
to give it a name so that I could understand
it and read about it. And I even asked him,
actually I asked him right before his arrest. Are you
a sex addict? Just flew out of my mouth, and
he said no, and he's denied it for sense, But
that's got to be part of it. To have that
much sex that often and that deviant, I feel, again,
(32:10):
I can't diagnose him, but I think there's sex addiction
in there. It's such a complicated issue. I don't know
that I've ever really seen this case of sex addiction
without the narcissism stuff sitting right next to it, right,
because there's a complete dehumanization and disregard for someone else.
There's different schools of thoughts, So I can't say what
I'm saying is right. I'm just saying that I've always
seen those things happen together. I was just curious if
(32:31):
it came up. This is a big piece I want
to bring up. I was listening to one of the
last few episodes of the podcast where people were actually
raising their questions there how much they enjoy the podcast,
but you also got some critiques, And the one that
jumped out at me and that actually I sat with
for a long time was that there was some pushback
(32:52):
on the use of the term grooming and applying that
to anything but a relationship with somebody who would be
designated as vulnerable almost under the law, like a minor,
And for that term to be used in an adult
relationship was an issue. What are your thoughts on that?
Because I know I sat and thought. I sat with
that one for a long time. So this term grooming,
(33:14):
like gent said, I want people to understand this, and
then the use of the term seemed to raise controversy.
So could you unpack that a little bit? Yeah, I
think it was the reason why we sought out an
expert in this field to educate ourselves and our audience.
And the biggest thing that we learned was it knows
no age or gender like it's a specific action. And
(33:41):
I spoke to it earlier, where you are seeking vulnerabilities
and individuals building a relationship, building a rapport, creating this
identity for yourself in relation to somebody else so they
feel safe in order to understand their vulnerabilities, understand their entryway,
and work into that to expose whatever you need to
(34:06):
get whatever you need from them. And that was a
really hard email to get when we got an email
about grooming. Language is important, and absolutely it is, but
The biggest thing that we learned is you could be
sixty and still be groomed. You could have a lifetime
of experience and still deal with this. And it's also
(34:28):
important to note that we were not comparing one person's
experience or the other or putting them on a teer.
We were just exploring the multi different relationships that this
individual had with other women. And so I know that
some people need to be able to say this one
was worse and these weren't as worse. But it was
more about exploring how grooming exists in different relationships with
(34:52):
different people with different vulnerabilities. And you can be groomed
when you're fifteen fifty. There really is no age or
gender or boundaries there. So we're coming towards the end
of our time. I want to ask you this, Jen,
because you said something so poignant to me, which is
(35:13):
marriage mattered to me. I loved the idea of marriage.
I believed in marriage, And again, yours might be one
of the more profound stories of relational betrayal that many
people have heard. How do you feel about those things now?
How do you feel about marriage and and love and
commitment and all of that? How has that shaped your view.
(35:36):
I'm not a pessimist. I don't want this to alter
who I am, and I get excited about love and relationships.
Do I think I'll get married again. I don't know.
It's going to depend on that person, but I believe
I can find somebody to trust. I don't think all
(35:58):
of that was damaged. I'm excited about falling in love again.
It's amazing. It's just who I am. I can't let
this person who had such a huge issue affect the
rest of my life. I'm so glad survivors are hearing
this and people who people are listening to this podcast
or hearing this, because I think a lot of people
(36:19):
feel as though that's it. I'm out, and there's a
sort of a want to shut a door in the
name of safety. There's a tremendous courage to saying I
am going to do this again. I believe in this
thing called love. But one of the big pieces is
this isn't me, this was another person. I don't blame
myself for this, and I have always believed working in
this space with individuals and with clients is I've got
(36:41):
to break through that self blame space with them together
We're going to get them through that, because on the
other side, people after a variety of betrayal experiences can
believe in love and fall in love profoundly, but with
a different kind of I'm a wisdom about them, That's
what I would call it. What about you, Andrea, though,
while that obviously this didn't happen to you, you had
a front row seed if you were living in this
(37:01):
betrayal story day after day for a very long time,
how has it affected how you think about relationships? My
middle name is hope, and I believe in the Fleabag quote,
to love someone feels like hope, and I would never
want to get rid of that. I would never want
to rid that experience from my life. And so I
know that Jen is hopeful that she'll find someone, and
(37:24):
so that's enough for me. If she can have that attitude,
then so can I. That's it's amazing, I mean, it
really is. And I think so many people would be
afraid if I was betrayed, I'll never come back from it, right,
That's always the fear. And I think that what people
need to understand is that a lot of us are
psyches are actually often made of tougher stuff, especially when
(37:44):
you can see that is actually not you. Do you
have any questions for me? Dispense fall into the category
of a covert narcissist? Would you say so? Just to
be clear. So there's such a tricky terminology. So vulnerable
narcissis him. So there's grandiose narcissism, and that's our sort
of textbook in the dictionary charming charismatic narcissist. The vulnerable
(38:07):
narcissist is almost the flip of that is sullen, resentful.
They feel aggrieved, They're angry at the world. They feel
like victims. Now the covert overt part is about overt narcissism.
Is aren't I great? Don't you feel lucky to be
with me? They say things like that. The covert stuff
is the stuff we don't see. It's the feelings they
(38:28):
would have, the thoughts they'd have. They might be thinking,
how come nobody thinks I'm great? How come no one
can see how great I am? Obviously that might manifest
his anger and things like that. I think in his case, again,
if I was just a graduate student reviewing a case
in the professor said, what do you think my first
hypothesis is more in the sociopathy kind of narcissism psychopathy realm.
(38:49):
The lack of remorse to me is really striking here.
And I don't know history. Anyone really thinking about this
would need to know all of that to be able
to craft what who this person is. But if we
focus solely on the behavior, solely on the behavior of
long term deceit almost not quite aliases like the different
faces he put out there, taking an advantage of people
(39:12):
not following the rules, breaking rules with little remorse. That
definitely that behavior conforms to more of what we consider
to be psychopathy. And the reason it feels hidden is
because somebody who's so skilled at lying is actually able
to put forth these other faces. And if the whole
machine is working well, that means everyone is actually seeing
(39:33):
this really, if you will, charming version of this person
all around, because the person's needs are being met so
consistently and for a long time, many years, the entire
machine actually sadly ran exactly the way he wanted it to.
That's why everyone was seeing this best face. As long
as like someone like him feel safe and validated, everybody's
(39:54):
going to think that he hung the moon. That's the challenge.
But all of these personalities, they're all very close to
each other. That why we use the word antagonistic, and
that big word antagonistic can be really in your face,
look how great I am. And it can also be
quite hidden, which is what you experienced. And again your
story is I've never seen one this striking in terms
(40:14):
of all the people out there who are mad. I
can't believe I missed the red flags. I just must
be a fool. You are a living reminder that the
red flags aren't always there. So that means though, that
things can go wrong, and trust yourself when they are
going wrong. Yours that was really in your face. But
even for other folks saying this doesn't feel good anymore,
(40:35):
But I didn't see red flags, so that must mean
that this is okay. You've got to trust yourself all along.
And just because there weren't red flags doesn't mean it
wasn't a toxic relationship. The response to your podcast was extraordinary.
I hope everybody listens to it because I think that
it really is that reminder that many times what we
think is in front of us is not And that's
(40:57):
not a statement on us. It really is about the
capacity of some people to go through the world very
differently than the rest of us. So thank you, thank
you again for the gift of your time. Jen, thank you,
and thank you, thank you so much. It was such
is very enlightening speaking with you. Thank you, thank you
so much. I do it's amazing. Here are my takeaways
(41:17):
from my conversation with Jen and Andrea. Betrayal trauma was
a major theme in Jen's story and in the Betrayal podcast.
It is a frequent theme in narcissistic relationships as well.
It is a unique relationship trauma that comes from having
trust violated, living with chronic deceit, and enduring consistent gas lighting.
(41:42):
The fallout of betrayal trauma is quite consistent with what
we observe in people living with narcissistic abuse, and is
an important framework for survivors to have when they experience
massive breaches of trust and don't know which way is up.
In my next takeaway, there is no simple explanation for betrayal,
(42:05):
and certainly not for one on this scale. It's too
simplistic to say narcissistic people betray For survivors, hearing that
is often not enough. Personality is certainly one factor, but
other things may be at play, like disregulation other behavioral dynamics,
but personality styles like narcissism, sociopathy, or psychopathy are often
(42:30):
part of this picture above all else. It is so
important for survivors to know that another person's betrayal is
never your fault, even though you are the one managing
the pain and the fallout. Jen resisted the temptation to
make it just about why he was the way he
was or why he did what he did, and instead
(42:54):
she focused on what actually happened and how to not
be defined by it. In my next takeaway, While the
term may be controversial, the process is pretty clear. Whether
it is termed grooming or indoctrination, or capitalizing on vulnerabilities,
it is the process of a manipulative person praying upon
(43:17):
a person's vulnerabilities or advantaging their own power to get
what they want from them. It is, in fact a
process and is the dark side of other dynamics and
patterns such as love bombing. People can be vulnerable to
this process, regardless of their age or life experience. The
person doing the grooming or the indoctrination uses techniques such
(43:41):
as praise, making someone feel special, telling them that they
love them, or that this is a once in a
lifetime experience, and then mixing that with being very attentive
and then pulling back, leaving the other person feeling that
they would do anything to get that manipulation her back.
Awareness is key here because it's not as though our
(44:05):
vulnerabilities or life circumstances will change, but looking for other
problematic dynamics that can accompany grooming, like isolation, undertaking a
relationship in secrecy, not being brought into all aspects of
a person's life. These can be important to understand this
dynamic and protect ourselves and others from it. In my
(44:29):
next takeaway, Jen's story is a reminder that even when
there is a massive betrayal that affected not only her
but the other people he affected as well as friends
and family. While it may feel that we can't come
back from it, these experiences do not have to steal
(44:49):
our empathy and compassion. While Jen had to go through
her own process of working through her feelings about adult
women who knowingly entered into a relationship up with her husband,
she found that the process ultimately didn't steal her empathy
and compassion or her belief in love. Interestingly, she did
(45:09):
have empathy for the other woman as she learned more
about how people like her ex husband work and manipulate,
and ultimately she didn't lose her belief in love and relationships.
These betrayal relationships do not have to steal our futures
from us. They have already harmed us enough. A big
(45:34):
thank you to our executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valen Jethrow,
Ellen Rakaton, and Dr Rominey de Vassila. And thank you
to our producer Matthew Jones, associate producer Mara Dela Rosa,
and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally, thank you to our
editors and sound engineers Devin Donnaghe and Calvin Bailiff
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