Nerd Sesh - Top 10 NBA Players to Start a Franchise With - Nerd Sesh

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume. Oh my god, how could he do that?
Charles Darwin?

Speaker 2 (00:20):
The nerves is where it's at. Welcome everybody back into
nerd sesshon. As always, I'm Carson Brebern. Alongside he is
Logan Camden, and today we are going to be ranking
the top ten players we would most want to start
a franchise with today in Logan, I presume I speak
for both of us when I say Jimmy Butler's got

(00:42):
to be number one on this list.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Yeah, yeah, of course, man, He's not problematic at all
off the court. Yeah, I don't know, dude. Him and
pat Riley are kind of like a stalemate right now. Dude,
who's gonna blink first? I honestly think it's probably in
the heat's best interest to just go ahead and trade
the guy. But what do I know, man, Well.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Only think that they should try to trade him because
he just can't find his joy on the court, Logan,
And how sad is that? But I think the reality
is he's gonna be a pretty exceptionally difficult star to
trade when you consider thirty five availability concern money too,
not the easiest fit necessarily for a lot of these contenders,
and he's expecting an extension. There's honestly not really a

(01:23):
target that I love out there. We've talked about that before,
but I think it's gonna be hard to trade him.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
I've been a big Jimmy Butler fan for a while too, Dude.
I'm gonna be honest. I wouldn't pay him like uh
And I don't know if I'm just like it's a
little bit different from the Paul George situation, because we
were talking about that last night, like through text, like
I would have been on the Paul George contract. I
don't know. I think you gotta like take a take
a step back when you're paying these older guys, man,

(01:49):
who totally you know that the end could be coming soon.
And it's not like Jimmy's been king the world on
fire now. I only think he's as as intriguing of
an asset as he would have been, you know, maybe
a year ago or even earlier this season.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Dude, I totally agree. But speaking of intriguing assets, those
are the guys who we're talking about today. I think
this is gonna be a really fun episode. The reason
that I thought of this is we have back to
back Jokic Wemby matchups these next two days, which I
am unbelievably excited for, And you just have sort of
that intergenerational duel of the absolute best that the league's got.

(02:24):
And so today we're gonna be balancing that. We're gonna
be balancing how great are these guys right now? How
great do we expect them to be going forward? Do
you want to shout out any honorable mentions now, Logan
or do you want to save that for after we
go through our top ten?

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Dude, I'm just hoping my list is not a complete
and utter abomination.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Oh, don't even say that. Plus, you're sick clearly or
under the weather. You have the black lungs, so it's
your flu game.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
I mean, I just yeah, I don't know if I'm
thinking clearly right now, So I say we do honorable
mentions at the all right?

Speaker 2 (02:52):
All right, well we'll start from the bottom. Who do
you have in your ten spot? All right?

Speaker 1 (02:57):
To be completely transparent here, I decided this right before
we began, and I think I like this. I have
Jalen Brunson in my ten spot. And you know, I
debated taking a really young guy that I think is
gonna pan out, maybe another younger point guard that's a
real great offensive engine, like a Trey Young or something

(03:19):
like that, even a young wing, like I thought, maybe
Jalen Williams, Franz Wagner or Brandon Miller, you know, but
Brunton's not that old. Brunton's twenty eight years old, and
he's one of those guys that I think, I just
know what I'm getting with Brunson. He's such a sure
thing right now. He's gonna lead out a great offense.

(03:39):
He's gonna be a great playoff performer. I think his
game really scales well to the playoffs. And like I said,
he's twenty eight, but his game isn't really predicated on athleticism,
and so this isn't the best comparison, but it's like,
I think Steph Curry's game is going to age really
gracefully because he's the greatest shooter of all time. I
think Brunton's game going to age really gracefully because he's

(04:01):
so methodical and I think he's a really good offensive player.
So I debated going with somebody really young that I
think is gonna pan out and be a star, But
I think I prefer what Brunson brings me right now.
That being said, you know, I don't know if he's
a number one on a championship team, and that was
kind of an.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Offensive number one or the best overall player, because I
think he can definitely be the number one on a
championship offense. I just think he needs a really awesome
number two and a really good supporting cast.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
I mean he's got that now, but I really.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
And they're totally a championship offense. The question is just
are they a championship defense.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
I just I love what he brings to the table.
I don't think that he's gonna fall off a cliff
anytime soon. I think Brunson's a guy that I expect
five plus really great more years out of him. You know,
the guy's so damn efficient. He's so good at setting
up his teammates for looks, and he's just so methodical. Man.
That's my face favorite thing about Jayalen Brunson. So you know,

(05:02):
when we started doing this, I thought that my list
was all gonna be guys who were, like, you know,
twenty five and younger, but prints and sneaks his way
on here.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
I totally see the case. Dude, He's just such a
sure thing in such a certifiably elite offensive engine, especially
as a floor raiser. What we saw last year where
he improved that Knicks offense by fifteen points per one
hundred possessions, the volume load that we saw him carry
in the playoffs. He is in such complete control of
the game. And now we've seen him with more talent

(05:30):
around him, scale up his playmaking, improve his scoring efficiency,
and still have a really impressive offensive season. So I
can see the case of just I want that offensive
number one anchor that I can bet on year after year.
But in my number ten spot, I do have a
guy who is a good bit younger and who is
an incredible defensive anchor with some real offensive potential. I

(05:51):
hope this guy is on your list. Maybe he's higher.
I have Evan Mobley in my tense spot. There's not
a bigger Evan Mobley guy on the planet. I mean,
when he was a draftspect, I said he was the
best guy that I'd been able to evaluate. He was
later surpassed by both Chet and Wemby, who are just
absolute freak talents, but I did think that Mobley was
the best prospect that we'd seen in more than a
half decade, and this is the year in which we've

(06:13):
really started to see that potential realized. The guy is
twenty three years old. He is a top three defender
on the planet, and he's averaging eighteen and a half points,
nine boards, three assists tonight on sixty five percent through
shooting in just thirty minutes per game. Because the Cavs
blow everybody out so much. And it's really the offensive
versatility that we've seen blossom with him and the offensive aggression.

(06:35):
But this is a guy who is now comfortable running
pick and roll for you. He's a sixty fourth percentile
creator there. He's one of the better transition players in
basketball with his ability to grab and go at his
size as a really good athlete who does have good
passing vision. He's shooting forty three percent from deep on
two and a half attempts per game. Now that's a
meaningful difference from him. Not a high volume three point shooter,

(06:57):
of course, but comfortable stepping out beyond the three point line,
knocking down open shots in a way that we haven't
seen from him previously. He can handle, he can pass,
he can attack off the bounce. He looks more confident
attacking off the catch, if he's catching the ball around
the nail, if he is initiating off the bounce. Like
in every way, he's just more confident and he's more
of an offensive weapon. But it is the defensive foundation

(07:20):
that makes him a guy who I think is clearly
going to have all NBA value down the line, and
is already pretty close to that because he is a
Tier one rim protector. He holds opposing players thirteen percent
below their average field goal percentage at the rim, and
at the same time, he's one of the most switchable
bigs in basketball. We saw in the playoff run last
year where he's guarding Paolo Bonco and Jason Tatum as

(07:42):
their primary defenders for extended stretches, and he's holding both
those guys to like thirty five percent shooting from the field.
It's incredible his ability to stay in front of wings,
to move his feet out in space, and then also
be this unbelievable rim protecting force who can dom at
the four and the five. We've seen him thrive playing

(08:03):
alongside Jared Allen. Defensively, he can dominate both at the
four and the five, but offensively, now that he's got
more perimeter skill, he can do the same. But I
do think he will still truly be unleashed when he
is more of a full time five. Someday he plays
half his minutes at the five as is, because the
Cavs have a very nice minute stagger with him and Allen.

(08:23):
But I just think that's when you'll see him in
the best offensive situation, because yes, he can still do
his stuff spacing the floor and can be part of
a five out offense, but he also is going to
get a significant majority of all those big man touches
around the rim, and that's where we really saw him
thrive offensively in the playoff series against Boston last year
and he's improved a good bit since then. But just

(08:44):
that sort of spacing, it's a benefit to any player
offensively and defensively. I just have no question that he
can anchor the five right, he can do it on
the glass. He to me, is physical enough. These are
the questions about him early in his career. But here's
the crazy number for you. Logan the Cavs defensive rating
with MOBILEI on the floor and Jared Allen off that

(09:06):
is MOBILEI at the five, and we've seen four hundred
and sixty minutes of that this year. They have a
one oh one point six defensive rating.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
That's ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
It's better than the Thunder. So I just have no
doubts that he is one of the absolute top tier
defensive centers and power forwards in the league. But I
think you get more out of him offensively if he's
at your center and you can put more offensive skill
around him. So he's just one of those special defensive
anchors who's going to be one of the best guys
of this generation. Was one of the best prospects of

(09:36):
this generation defensively, and he's a really good offensive player.
And I think he's just going to keep getting better
offensively because the guy's twenty three and we've seen Kenny
Atkinson instill a confidence in him, be willing to utilize
him in different ways, empower him to do more with
the ball in his hands. And he doesn't have like
Chet Holmgren level skill, right, He's not that level ball handler,

(09:57):
he's not that level shooter. So he's not just going
to keep growing exponentially forever. But can he continue to
get better as an offensive player? Absolutely, and I expect
him to so he's just got to be on my list. Man,
It's so rare to find a player this great defensively
who's even good offensively, and Mobley is already that, and
I just think he's gonna keep trending upwards.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
I completely agree. That's why he's on my list. I
have him in my eight spot. And the only edge
I would give Chet or excuse me, Mobley over Chet
right now is I do think he's a little bit
better on the interior, like you know, as a play
finisher with a little more physicality.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
Interesting, I don't agree with that. I think the Chet
is the better finisher. I do think that Mobley is
just more strongly built. But Shed is also really down
to play physical basketball, and he is really aggressive. I
would say Mobley's edge is I think he's significantly better
defending big wings like in the Tatum Powllow archetype. Like
Chet is switchable, but he can't do that. Mobly is sturdier. One.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah. I mean, I'm honestly surprised Mobley isn't higher than
this for you, because I do see him getting continuing
to get better offensively. I think this is a guy
that could average maybe in a different offensive situation just
because there are a lot of mouths to feed in Cleveland.
I think this is a guy that in a lot
of situations could give you twenty to a night really
efficiently and be the best defensive player on the floor.

(11:22):
And that is why he's here for me. I think
Evan Mobley could be the best defensive player on the
planet for the next decade outside of you know when right, Like,
I mean, well, he's just one of one. There's nothing
that really truly compares to Wemby. But the next guy
to me is Mobley. And that's no disrespect to Chet.
I think Chet's great on that end too, but as
you mentioned, I think with his versatility, there's a little

(11:44):
more that status ridiculous Cars says eye opening. I mean
that's like, dude, that's like, you know, two thousand and
four basketball defense, but in twenty twenty.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
Five and Jared Allen is really really good. And I
think it's a great thing that they can get forty
eight minutes of quality center play, right, you get sixteen
minutes and then together you get sixteen minutes of mobile,
you get sixteen minutes of Alan out there by themselves.
That works. But again, I do think the absolute best
version of Evan Mobley comes with him playing center. For you.
That's not to say that they have to move off
of Allen because they have such a great thing going,

(12:18):
but that is my opinion for Mobley's individual ceiling. Okay,
so who's in your nine spot?

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Then this was probably the toughest guy for me to
rank on my list because I think he's way better
right now than this number would indicate a number nine.
I have Yannis, and Jannis is, in my opinion, the
second best player on the planet. Arguably. I would have Jokic,

(12:44):
and then I would have Yannis, and then I would
have Sga. I think it's really close between all those three,
So take your pick. But this is the best offensive
version I think we've ever seen of Jannis. For so
long was called run and dunk man and now has
legitimately grown his game out right. Giannis is a legitimately
really good playmaker now where he collapses defenses and makes

(13:06):
these kickout passes that he just wasn't capable of before.
He's expanded, you know, to a mid range game now
and he's not as impactful as he was defensively, but
he's still really good there. And I think the Bucks
have figured out combinations around him where Yannis isn't trying
to be a one man defense anymore. I think they
figured out role players guys like aj Green and Andre

(13:27):
Jackson Junior who can come in and do their job.
And I think Giannis is going to be among you know,
the best players on the planet for the next three
to five years. So you might be asking, you know,
why is he at number nine. The only reason is
because of my just injury concerns with Giannis, because he's

(13:48):
missed the last two postseasons because he hasn't been available,
and I don't know, I just worry about his play
style and him being able to say healthy. And I
don't know if that's the best way to think about it,
but I worry about Giannis. I worry about him if, like,
for example, if Jannis had a back injury or you know,

(14:12):
had a leg injury or something along those lines, and
I just worry about him being able to continue playing
the way he does after something like that. And I
don't want to wish that on him. If Jihanna stays healthy,
but that is my one chief concern with Jannis, and
that is the only thing that is really key. And
his age too, I don't like obviously it's his age too,
he's over, he's past thirty. That doesn't factor in as

(14:35):
much as his injury concerns. So I think Janis wholeheartedly
has a case to be much much higher on this list,
but I am going to put him down here at
number nine.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
This is very low for Jianness in my opinion. And
I understand factoring in age and some of the health concerns,
how his game will age being so dependent on athleticism,
But to me, those only really become factors once we're
getting into a higher tier, once we're getting to dudes
who can at least sniff something close to Janni's peak,

(15:05):
because that's the thing. This is a top fifteen peak
in NBA history that we're witnessing right now from Yannis
with his offensive growth. I mean, yeah, the guy's thirty
years old, but he's averaging thirty two twelve and six
on over sixty two percent true shooting. And no, isn't
the defensive force he was at his peak, but over
the last month, as Milwaukee has turned their defense around,
he has been quite good defensively and has been better

(15:26):
than we've seen him over the past couple years. So
he's just in that special all time great tier where
if the rosters are equal, like, I would take three
to four more years of peak Yannis over a decade
plus of Evan Mobley over a decade plus of basically
all the guys who I have below him. Yeah, man,

(15:48):
I just think Jannis has an ability to will you
through if you put the right roster around him. That
as much as I love Evan Mobley right, obviously, he
does not have anything close to Jannis's offensive ceiling. Some
of the other dudes in my nine spot, Paolo Boncero
I think has the potential to be an e leit
offensive player, He's never going to be close to the
two way force that Jannis on Tetakumpo is. Man, Like,

(16:10):
I really think it's only Jokic having a top eight
peak in NBA history that kind of overshadows the fact
that Giannis is also at this true all time great
Titan level and some of the availability stuff with him.
I can't write it off. But it also is worth
noting that, like he's still been pretty healthy in regular seasons,

(16:33):
it's just been the last.

Speaker 1 (16:34):
Two Yeah, it's literally just been the playoffs.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
Which is unfortunate, which can't be disregarded. But do I
view him as like an overly injury prone player, No,
I don't. I honestly think that the guy is a tank,
and I think he's one of the great regular season
floor razers we've seen in the history of this sport,
Like he has basically been an automatic fifty plus wins
for the Bucks going all the way back to twenty nineteen,
and I don't think he's ever been better than he

(16:58):
is right now. So he's a good bit higher than
this for me.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
I understand that. Yeah, I don't. I don't know, And
that's what I think makes this list probably interesting. Just
how much do you, you know, value the future. I just
look at MOBILEI and some of these guys higher than
Yannis as and not that Yannis isn't, but like foundation
guys that are gonna be great for a decade, and
I don't know how much. I don't know. I don't
know how much Jannis has left in the tank. Maybe

(17:25):
I'm a little too worried about his injuries, but that
does factor into me. And I'm so confident in some
of the young guys above him really being great obviously,
I agree with what you said. I don't think they're
ever going to reach the level that Jannis is at
right now. It is truly historic, but I think they're
gonna be really, really consistent and dependable for the next decade.
So that's why he's down here.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
I just think Mobile at his best is like fringe
top ten kind of player. Pooelllo Boncaro at his best
I think sneaks inside the top ten. Jiannie is top two,
and again there are some times throughout history in which
he would be number one. Playing at this level, that's
just such a special thing. It gives you such a
good chance every year that all of those years are

(18:08):
so extremely valuable to me Adam or nine. Though, as
I said, I do have Polo Boncaro, and he's a
tricky fella to rank, and I did consider Mobi above
him because I know what I'm getting from Mobley as
an elite defensive anchor every single year of his career,
and Paolo, in some ways I think, still has a
ceiling that isn't as fully laid out and playing to

(18:32):
see as it is with Mobili. But I was really
impressed by what we saw with Poolo early in this year,
and it was only five games, but basically every adjustment
that I wanted to see from him last year, we saw.
He was maximizing his physical advantages. He was playing elite bullyball.
This is a six ' ten two point fifty tank

(18:54):
of a man who, yes, is very skilled for being
that size, but is clearly at his best when he
is just relentlessly bullying you. And that's what he was doing.
He was getting to the line twelve times a game.
This year. He was shooting fifty seven percent on two
pointers versus I think forty nine percent last year. Thirty

(19:15):
four percent of his shots were coming inside of three
feet compared to twenty two percent last year. He was
aggressively attacking guys out of the post war. He was
just going through people. And that's what makes Poolo special
because I think he'll end up being a good jump shooter.
Right now, he's an okay jump shooter. The efficiency isn't great,
the degree of difficulty is high. But the fewer long

(19:38):
mid rage attempts that we see from Polo in the
more getting to the rim, getting to the line that
we see, that's when he can become a legitimately really
efficient offensive player because efficiency was a big struggle for
him through his first two years. The situation was tough,
but part of it was also just his own shot selection,
favoring some of those lower percentage looks. So I really

(19:59):
like what I saw from him as a scorer early
this year, and I think he can be an elite
playmaking forward. And that's what makes me so high on
Powlo because I've seen some people really dismiss Paolo as
being like an actual future elite player, and I've seen
people compare him to Mellow. That's crazy to me because
the playmaking is so different, right. This is a guy

(20:22):
who can average six assists a game for you right now,
who can see so much at his size, who can
make these impressive skip passes at times, and can make
these wrap around passes and laydowns when he's attacking the basket,
And the more shooting you put around him, the more
of those kickout passes you're gonna get, the more playmaking
value you're gonna get from him. That's where I see
him being an actual offensive engine, not an elite playmaker

(20:47):
period right, because there are guards who are just going
to be on a different level from him. But in
terms of forwards, I think he can be one of
the best passers in the league. And I think the
Powlo discourse is just kind of weird, man, because, as
I'm mentioned, you have the detractors who I think really
are looking at Powlo and saying he's overrated right now.
And we talked about this last year, right the Magic

(21:08):
statistically were way better with him off the floor. He
was extremely inefficient. The reason that was such a good
team is because they were such an elite team defense.
And then this year we saw how successful they were
with Franz in the volume that he was able to
produce in Powlo's absence, and then we've seen even without
both of those guys their ability to be a competitive

(21:28):
basketball team. I think that that has been good in
terms of illuminating what is this team's superpower, and it
is that incredible team defense. But I also don't think
we should be judging Paolo right now as though he's
a finished product and say, oh, well, he's inefficient right now,
He's not a high end offensive number one right now. Well, yeah,

(21:49):
he's in year three. We shouldn't expect him to be that.
And so going forward, I think the more bullyball he plays,
the more he grows as a passer, the more I
see him as one of those truly elite offensive players
offensive forwards. Defensively, I think he's quite mediocre right now,
and I think that that will probably remain the case.

(22:10):
But I also think as his offensive situation gets better,
and I think it is better this year compared to
years past, and I'm excited to see him back out
there healthy again, his efficiency numbers will continue to look better.
So again, I love Mobile. I considered Mobile, but it
is the fact that I see that actual offensive number
one ceiling for Paolo that makes me lean towards him.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
I agree with a lot of what you said, and
I've been impressed by the magic in this stretch without him,
and I think you see the depth on display for them,
you know, Batazzi stepping up all these other guys, like
if it's Tristan the Silva, if it's Anthony Black, like
this is a really good team top to bottom. But
I honestly feel like that kind of narrative is old news.

(22:57):
I know it was just a year ago, but I
really think, and it's a small sample size, I really
think Paolo showed you what he's going to be capable
of at his apex, and I hope he comes back
one hundred percent. Injuries are always hard to come back from.
But I mean, I just think you're looking at a
guy who's going to be a freight train going to
the basket, who's gonna be a really good playmaker out

(23:19):
of it. And the one thing I disagree with you,
I know you've disagreed on this before. I do think
Paolo is going to be an elite jump shooter of
the basketball one day.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
I think elite is very ambitious to me.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Would would you consider Jason Tatum an elite shooter?

Speaker 2 (23:31):
No, I would consider him a very good shooter.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
And maybe not a look bit. I think that I
think that ban Caro could be on like a Jason
Tatum level of jump shooter. And I mean, if you're
looking at that dude, a cay you can get to
the rim at will, who can draw a ton of
defensive attention inside a guy that can draw a bunch
of fouls, that can finish through big bodies. I mean,
I'm never gonna forget that Pacers game is ingrained in
my brain. So that was a grown man, dominating, dominating,

(23:58):
the other team. And I think that is much more
of what Polo is going to look like when he's
a finished product. And I don't think there's gonna be
a hole in him in his game offensively. I think
he's gonna be a complete uh beast. I don't think
he has as much two way value as some of
these other guys, But I have Polo in my sixth
spot and it is because I'm so confident in him

(24:18):
being a really good offensive player one day. So yeah,
I think Polo deserves to be here, and I hope that.
I think the Mellow comp is honestly pretty disingenuous to
to Polo's game. Like maybe in like his first two years,
I could buy that just with like the shot diet
and how much he was settling, But I just think
that there's a different level of physicality.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah, man, I mean Mellow was never six ten, two fifty. Yeah,
pretty simple. He could play real bullyball in New York,
but he was sacrificing some athleticism and quickness. As he
added that bulk like Mello is never passing the ruck. Well,
that's the big thing. That's the really big difference to me.
I do think Polo is a very good playmaker and
is going to continue to impersonally.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
Essential to be a good defense You know, I think
he's not right now, like the Magic have been statistically
better without him on the floor defensively, but I think
there's an avenue to him being a good defender.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
The thing for me is I always give young players
the benefit of the doubt that they will improve defensively.
But if there were ever a situation where you would
be bought in defensively, wouldn't it be Orlando right where
you have a bunch of young dudes around you, but
everybody's defending their asses off. And I get it, he's
got a real offensive load on him, but he's been
unimpressive on that end. He's been a weak link, if

(25:32):
you could say that for Orlando, they don't really have
a week link, but he's been the least impressive defender
on the floor for them usually. And I think a
lot of people will look at last year's postseason and say,
oh my god, well that sold you on Paolo. To me,
the five games that we saw this year actually matter
more because of the way that he was producing last year.

(25:52):
What he did in a really disgusting playoff environment was
wildly impressive, but a lot of it was total outlier
pull up shooting, right. I mean he was forty percent
from deep. I think he was like fifty four percent
from mid range when he was under forty percent in
the regular season. Insane, sick that he did that, but
not sustainable. If he plays like the guy that we
saw early this year, that is sustainable, and that's really

(26:14):
really scary. So you have MOBILEI in your eighth spot.
What would you like to add about it? I don't
have a ton to add.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
I mean, I just know that he's going to be
a stud defensively for a long time, and that's why
I want Mobley.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
Okay, Well, in my number eight spot, I have a
guy who was also going to be a stud defensively
to say the least, but does have a good bit
more offensive potential, and that is Chet Holmgren. I feel
like maybe you are gonna have young guys higher on
this list than I do.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
I think so too, because I'm looking at this now
and there's just a I have Chet at seven.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
So interesting, very interesting.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
I think this is interesting.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
I wonder where we are going to disagree, But I say,
nobody's been higher on Evan Mobley. Nobody's been higher on
Ched Holmgren, Like these were my guys. I thought that
these guys were clearly the best problems in their classes,
despite the fact that I also loved Kate Cunningham and
I loved Paolo Boncaro. Chet's twenty two years old and
per thirty six minutes this year, he's averaging over twenty

(27:11):
two points per game, twelve rebounds per game, three assists
in three and a half blocks on sixty two percent
true shooting. And I believe that he and Wenby and
Evan Mobley are the three best defensive prospects that I've evaluated,
and I think that they're the three best defensive prospects
since Anthony Davis, and I think that they will be
the three defining defenders of this generation, which just gives

(27:33):
you such a high baseline value. And Chet was the
defensive player of the year before he got hurt. This year,
Okayse's defense collectively is incredible. The fact that they are
still the number one defense even though they haven't had
Chet for so long is a testament to that they
are freakishly aggressive, they are freakishly athletic, They have more
good perimeter defenders than any defense I've ever seen. But

(27:53):
when he was on the floor, man Okase had a
ninety eight point six defensive rating that's just unfathomable. In
players shot nineteen percent below their average at the rim
when defended by chet Holmgren. I do think that in
terms of his technical proficiency as a rim protector, he
surpasses Wemby, he surpasses Mobili, and he's got more length

(28:16):
than Mobili does as well. Just his ability to maintain verticality,
his timing as a shot blocker, it's out of this world.
His instincts are so far beyond his years. So he's
going to be a top three defender on the planet
for quite some time. And offensively, he's an absolute demon,
and he came out with a different mentality this year.
His free throw rate skyrocketed. He was attempting four free

(28:40):
throws per thirty six minutes last year. That was up
to seven this year. His aggression as a driver and
finisher skyrocketed. He just looked so confident taking dudes off
the bouts. He looked so confident attacking the rim, playing
off these pocket passes. He doesn't shy away from physicality
his handle for a seven foot is so good. Right,

(29:01):
we can talk about Mobley's handle is impressive for his size.
Wemby's handle is impressive for his size. Jet is a
different level of ball handler from these dudes. His ability
to control the ball in traffic, his ability to get
low on these drives. Like obviously he's not a perfect
ball handler, he's seven foot, but he has the most
actually wing like ball handling and the jump shooting man.

(29:21):
He's thirty eight percent from deep and at the same
time he shoots seventy two percent in the restricted area,
and is this incredibly fluid guy both attacking off the bounce,
but also if you feed him off the roll, if
you feed him a lob and he's butter from mid range.
He's just such a complete offensive player. He's an elite
role man rolling and popping both. He's elite in transition,

(29:43):
he can grab and go, but he's also just killer
as a trailer with his three ball, and he has
this real juice off the bounce, and he's a good passer.
We talked about last year how effective inverted pick and
roll was with Chet, and this year he was better.
Pre injury. This year I saw exactly what I wanted
from Chet. I saw chet in attack mode. Yes, I

(30:04):
saw skill development, but most importantly, I saw the mentality.
Because chet has been gifted so so much in terms
of basketball ability, but last year there were times where
offensively he just looked like a rookie right and his
jump shot went cold at an inopportune time in the playoffs.
But also he wasn't that sort of aggressive force who's

(30:25):
gonna say, hey, I'm a star every night and you're
gonna feel that on both ends of the floor. That's
what I thought that we saw from the jump this year,
and I think he can grow into a guy who
is scoring in the mid twenties for you on incredible
efficiency and is the perfect complimentary offensive player because of
his vertical spacing and his floor spacing, his ability to

(30:45):
attack in so many different ways which is just exceptional.
And then he's gonna be a transformative defender. I've been
saying since they drafted chet Man. With him and Shay,
they have two guys who are going to be MVP
caliber players. And that's why I have so much confidence
in Okaseee winning multiple titles. Multiple titles. The only reason
check can't be higher for me is compared to you.

(31:08):
I do think I'm favoring some of these older guys
more just because I think they are in a tier
that some of these younger guys I don't see reaching.
But it is also health because if not for health concerns,
I would consider him above a couple more dudes. But
he has played ninety two games in two and a
half seasons. He is very slight, right. I hate to

(31:30):
even have to bring it up, but it's a reality.
When you have a seven foot plus guy who weighs
two hundred and ten pounds, Historically, the track record is concerning.
So the two guys I have right above him are
just like the pinnacle of durability, and that is an
edge when we're talking about, Hey, I'm banking my franchise
on you. I'm building around you. But in terms of
the talent with Chet, I couldn't be higher on him.

(31:52):
You have Poallo above him, though, Yeah, talk to me
about that because I disagree.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
I mean, I'm just confident that Powelo is gonna be
way better offensively. I think Pallo is going to be
a number one offensively in this league, and I think
he could be the best offensive player on a championship team.
I don't know if I can say that a bad Chet.
I think Check can be the best defensive player on
a title team.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
But wouldn't you rather have an absolute defensive superstar who
can also give you an efficient twenty five a night
and is crazy versatile.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
That's a balance. I mean, I'd rather have the better
offensive player. I mean, I think Chet and Mobley both
have an argument above Paolo, factoring that in from two
way value, but I'm so confident that Polo is going
to be one of the best offensive players on the planet.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
I pretty strongly disagree. I've been pretty adamant about this
since they were prospects. I do think that Palo is
going to be an awesome offensive player too. Do I
think he's ever a Tier one offensive player, No, because
I don't think he's gonna score with that top tier
efficiency or be that top tier playmaker. I think he's
going to be really, really good, but then he's an
average defender. If you give me a defensive anchor like
a Chet Holgrin who I don't think it's ridiculous to

(32:58):
say we will view a lot alongside Rudy Gobert type
defender right, Anthony Davis level defender when we're talking about
the defining guys of a generation, make you a top
three defense every year if you put capable personnel around him,
and then that guy is also a flat out offensive
star with the ceiling I think Chet has, it's really
not close to me. It's so so rare to find

(33:21):
a big with the sort of two way ability that
Chet has, and it is on a different level than Mobley,
And that's why Paolo splits the two for me. MOBILEI
I can see that case of Hey, maybe offensively he's
really a number three on a title team or as
a scorer, but he's a defensive number one and is
just an awesome all around basketball player. Chet is like
a really good offensive number two and is a transformative

(33:45):
defensive player. So for me, that's always been a pretty
easy call. But okay, you have Chet at seven.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, I have Chet at seven.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Okay, my number seven is Jason Tatum. I think that
Jason Tatum is just an incredibly stir building block for
any NBA team. I think that his availability isnt a plus,
his versatility is the best in the league, and so
there's a lot of different ways that you can win
in terms of building a team around Jason Tatum because

(34:15):
of that multifaceted impact, and he's having an awesome year.
He's averaging twenty eight and a half points, nine and
a half boards, five and a half assists on sixty
one percent true shooting. It's incredible. And his value in
terms of the fact that you're gonna get good stuff
from him every night is so reliable. We talk about
how compared to other elite offensive players, he's more inconsistent

(34:38):
as a scorer, but what he does defensively, what he
does on the glass, what he can do as a playmaker.
That's what we saw in the finals last year, right
and in the playoffs overall, where he's totally off as
a scorer and he's still having this really pronounced impact
on every game, and then when he's right, he can
go pretty nuclear on you as a scorer. That's why

(34:59):
I think he's gotta be here. I mean, he's an
incredibly safe dude to be building your franchise around. The
only reason he's not higher is everybody above him either
is a mega offensive force right now or has the
potential to be, and I'm betting on them becoming that
and Tatum as good as he is, and I think
he's the fifth best player in basketball right now, He's

(35:21):
not that Like if you dropped him, for example, in
the current OKC offense, which is without Chet Holmgren, I
think they'd be like the eighteenth to twentieth best offense
in basketball because of the lack of consistent creation, because
of the lack of consistent shooting around him. You compare
that to an SGA, and these are the conversations that

(35:42):
we've been having, people have been having for a long time.
SJA has them as the number seven offense, and when
he's on the floor without Jalen Williams, they play as
the best offense in basketball. Like that's just incredible. I
do think although Tatum's versatility is the best in the
league right now, in my opinion, it's still an amazing
situation in Boston. Like when Jason Tatum is off the floor,

(36:04):
Man Boston has a one to twenty offensive rating. When
he is off the floor, they play like the second
best offense in basketball. Nobody else has that. That does
cover up for some of his inconsistencies in terms of scoring.
That does allow him to not have to be like
an a plus advantage creator, or an A plus jump shooter,
or an A plus playmaker. It allows him to be

(36:26):
a very good offensive player and a very good defensive
player and still feel like you can coast to a
title because everybody around him is that great, and that's
tremendously valuable. It's just when I think about again, those
top tier offensive forces, Jason Tatum is not one of
those dudes. And that's why I have him down at
number seven. And he is also a couple of years

(36:47):
older than a couple of the guys who I have
above him.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yeah, I'm not gonna lie.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
I forgot a bit. Oh the Tatum, mate, it was
in your subconscious, just forgot.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
He'd probably be eleven for me. I don't know if
i'd won him above whoa him and Brunson's interesting. I
just I know what Brunson can give me offense.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Oh my god, Logan, really are we still doing Brunson
above Tatum. I think it's okay to just say you
forgotten have him on?

Speaker 1 (37:18):
I forgot, all right, I forgot Jason, That's okay. Where
would you have I didn't probably ten? I'd have him
behind you, honest, I'd sub out Brunson. I'd put Brunson
in my eleven, so I'd put Tatum in my ten spot.
I just forgot he existed.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
I think with how you're valuing younger players, that's fine.
It's just I know what I'm getting with Jason Tatum,
and it's a true superstar. And when I look at Polo,
I mean, Polo's younger. But although I think Poolo can
be a better offensive player, he'll never, to me be
the two way player that Jayson Tatum is. I don't
think he'll ever do that sort of all around player.

(37:51):
He won't be that versatile Mobily. I love the guy,
love the guy, but having a guy who can be
an offensive number one like Tatum, that's really valuable to me.
And then Chat again, I would have the conversation. But
I have zero questions about Tatum's health. He's an iron man,
and Chat I do have questions there.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, hand up, that's all right, guys, I forgot Tatum.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Bio what I'm telling you. It's your flu game. It's
all right. You get a pass.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
Man. So yeah, I'll make that. I'll put brunts into eleven,
even though I do like bruntson a lot. I'll put
Tatum in that ten.

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Speaker 1 (40:08):
Spot.

Speaker 2 (40:09):
Okay, so you have Paolo six, I do. I guess
I'll just keep rolling here. I have Anthony Edwards at
number six, and I expect that you'll have him. I
don't know how much higher, but higher because you're a
super big ant guy. I've been seeing some Ant versus
Tatum discourse on the timeline today, and I want to
be clear, I unequivocally think that Jason Tatum is a

(40:32):
good bit better than Anthony Edwards right now. I really
don't think it's close because of the maturity that I
get from Tatum as a playmaker, because of the defensive impact.
But Ant is three years younger, and I do think
that he has a sort of special athletic ceiling that
he can continue to grow into. And I'm seeing a

(40:54):
lot of panic about him today because last night was
really rough and he's had a couple of clunkers as
of late. And on the are he's at twenty four
and a half points per game on fifty seven percent
true shooting, and I do think there's stuff that he
needs to do better, like the spacing in Minnesota sucks,
There's no two ways about that. But he still has
to get to the rim more than he is. Fifteen

(41:16):
percent of his attempts coming inside of three feet. That
is unacceptable for an athlete the caliber of ant when
you think about his first step, when you think about
his strength, when you think about his aerial ability as
a finisher, he has to just will his way to
the rim more, even though it is hard. In this situation,
three point eight free throws attempt per game way too
low for an athletic freak like Anthony Edwards. Forty seven

(41:38):
percent shooting on two pointers, all of those are unacceptable numbers.
But I do think in another situation he just would
be getting to the rim more. And he is a
ridiculously good finisher. His ability to finish in traffic because
of all his A plus athletic traits is in the
top tier in the league today. And I also think

(41:59):
you got to treat him like a twenty three year
old man. And I get it. He has been on
some really good teams, and so we have that expectation
that he is a superstar, and he's been treated like
that by the media. People want him to be basically
the face of the league, and so he's held to
a standard that is maybe beyond his years and beyond

(42:19):
where he's actually at as a basketball player. But I
do think as the situation improves, as he ages, we
will see him rounding into his prime as the sort
of unstoppable downhill force that he's capable of being. And
now this year, he is shooting forty one percent from
deep on ten attempts per game. And you can say, oh, well,
he's settling too much, Okay, But part of that is situation.

(42:42):
He can find the right balance between attacking the rim
and being a pull up shooter. What we should really
take away is that he is this good as a
pull up shooter right now, And is he gonna be
forty one percent all year? I don't think so. And
he has cool down as of late, but if we're
talking about thirty nine percent from deep Anthony Edwards on
high volume, that's a crazy weapon to pair with the

(43:04):
rim pressure that he has, and his scoring has scaled
very well to the playoffs. Now, he has had some
really good pull up jump shooting runs, but he's also
just improved as a pull up shooter, and he's been
effective getting to the mid range. It's just so tough
to guard a guy who can go through you like that,
who can get by you like that, and who also
can kill you with the pull up jumper. So he's

(43:26):
giving you twenty eight six and five and a half
on sixty percent true shooting in the playoffs for his age.
That's so impressive. And the other area where I do
think he can really grow is I think he has
the potential to become a pretty elite defensive guard. I
think he is a really good on ball defender right now,
I think that he has lapses as an off ball defender,

(43:47):
So overall, I would just say he's a plus defender.
But again, he's very young and like you wouldn't expect
him to be at his defensive peek. He has all
the tools to be an elite defensive guard I think,
or at least pick his spot when he wants to
be that sort of guy. The reason I don't have
him higher though, and logan I'll just put him in
SGA conversations too, because this is a conversation that you

(44:10):
and I had a bit ago. I don't think he'll
ever be as good as SGA is right now. I
don't think he'll ever be that level of score, even
though he has this incredible downhill ability and he has
the pull up three point shooting. SGA's mastery of every
area on the floor, his diversity as a score, his
ability to carve up the best defenses with mid range

(44:31):
shot making. It's just spectacular. But it's really the playmaking
where I think Ant is lagging behind, and that's where
as a complete offensive engine, what SGA is doing right
now is so special. I don't know that Ann is
ever gonna get there, and I don't think he's a
finished product as a passer. But I also think this

(44:53):
year has been discouraging. That to me is more concerning
than anything else. If you talk about his shot selection,
it's the fact that he has hasn't gotten any better
as a passer, and this offense really needs him to be,
and I think we're at the point where it's like
you need to pair him with a lead playmaker if
you want to have an elite offense with Anthony Edwards
as your number one, And that's just not the case Freshga.

(45:14):
He can do that all on his own. He's not
an elite playmaker, but he's a good one, and he
is just in such complete control of the game. It's
a totally different level of maturity from Ant. Ant is
still maturing. It's important to keep his age in mind
and that he does have room for growth. But I
also think Sga is just a special, special player, and
that's the thing. Everybody above Ant, in my opinion, is
so special. I think Ant will be a top five player,

(45:37):
but the guys above him are like either all time
great players or I think our dudes who are top
three players, who are truly elite, elite offensive engines. And
I believe in all those guys just a bit more
than I do an At.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. We can start
with the SGA thing first. I can't say with confidence
that Ant's ever going to be a better score than SGA,
just because I think SGA is one of the greatest
scorers in basketball history. It's not an anti Ant thing.
The second thing I will add is I've always known
that Anthony Edwards was going to be an elite jump shooter.

(46:15):
You watch the guy in practice, and that's what he
practices all the time. Deep ass three pointers, pull up midies,
pull up threes. That's what Ant's focal point has been practicing. Like.
It just makes sense that he's gonna get way better.
And I think it's more encouraging than discouraging that you're
seeing that he is capable.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Of doing this.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
That being said, if we're starting from scratch, I am
setting up Anthony Edwards for so much more success because
the one thing I'll say, you're talking about apples to
apples with SGA and Ant SGA. I know it's not
a great offensive situation, and they've been down their best,
second best player. It is a supreme offensive situation to Minnesota.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
Don't know, man, if that offense, I think that they're
in the twenties.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
I think Ant can get to the rim. I think
Ant's gonna pass the ball to Hartenstein. I think Ant's
gonna move the ball and be willing to get it
to these shooters. Oh, Minnesota is a disaster.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
It's a disaster.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
I'm just saying. I think the Minnesota offense is such
a catastrophically bad situation for a guy like Ant that
they are actively hindering him, and it makes me scared
that long term, I think they are handicapping Ant by
having him around Randall and Gobert. I think it hurts
what he is capable of offensively, and I've always felt

(47:32):
that way, and I think it's a fundamental misstep that
they traded Cat, because I think when you're thinking about
the ideal partner for Anthony Edwards.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
It's Cat.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
I mean, you have an all time rim Pressure and
Anthony Edwards and a guy that can space the floor.
It's seven foot better than almost anybody we've ever seen
at that height save you know, Dirt Novitzky. Like I
just I think it's such a bad offensive situation and
if I can start from scratch, I would I build

(48:03):
something better. Ant's number four for me. He is he
is impossible to stay in front of. I think he's
gonna be an all timer impressure. I think he is
a special pull up jump shooter. And I think he's
going to become a good playmaker. But Minnesota has to
change this. You have to get rid of Julius Randall.

(48:25):
And at this point, I know you're gonna disagree, Carson,
because it's a foundation that meant a fuck go bear.
I don't care anymore, man, I'm I think he hinders
your offense so much. I know, he's why the defense
is great. It's like, I would just much rather have
a guy that ANT can get the ball to and
that can run competent offense with He is such a
liability offensively that I don't even really care what he

(48:48):
does with the defense. So I just think An's in
one of the worst situations for a guy with his
play style, and he would thrive in a lot of
other ones. Man. That's that's where i'm man. I love
Anthony ed I think he's gonna be one of the
best players on the planet one day. That's why he's
number four for me.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
I agree that it's a tough situation. What I think
you're under selling is how monumentally great Sga is as
an offensive player, and the fact that his situation without
Chet offensively is not good.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
But I mean, I just like, here's my thing. There's
not a lot of talent in bankable guys that can
carry their own weight outside of j Dub through space though. Yeah,
when SGA drives the lane, there's five guys on the
arc and it's him.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Isolation true That is often not true. Defenses will aggressively
help off of those shooters. There are a lot of
dudes you want to test to make open threes and
sometimes they just don't. It's so special Logan to be
the sort of intermediate shot maker that Shay is. Shays's
fifty four percent from mid range on high volume. That's
fucking freak shit, bro, that's all time mid range shot making.

(49:53):
Completely lacking that dimension of his game, and he always
has the intermediate shot making. It's so important, especially in.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
The placecast he's got Randolin go Bear clogging.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
The entirest way to succeed as a scorer in spite
of clauded lanes is mid range shawmaking. That's what SJA
did against Dallas last year and doesn't have that in
his bag. We've seen stretches in the playoffs where he's good,
He'll never be close to the mid range shot making.
The intermediate shot maker that Shay is, and that's big.
He doesn't take care of them at all.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
Like Shandy is ever gonna be the pull up three
point shooter than Anthony Edward. I don't disagree with and
I don't think he's and I don't think he's ever
gonna be the kind of elite rim pressure.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
To disagree with that. He's consistently been a higher volume,
more effective finisher at the RIM.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
And I think that if Ant had clear lanes to
drive in, you would recognize what an all time defensive
collapse or he is. But he can't do that because
he's got the French.

Speaker 2 (50:45):
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm not disagreeing with you.
Look at Shae, though, man, I feel like you're just
valuing like raw first step in power over Shay's more
unique athleticism, which is still impossible to say. You can't
stay in front of a dude who is thees player
in bass one who pirouettes around you.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
Are still SGA is higher than Ant for me.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Oh you're cooking, then okay, then you're cooking.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
I don't get why you're arguing this to.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Me because SGA, because of the conversation we had a
couple of weeks. I'll spoil it to you. I have
the Pillsbury, don't.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
All right, we had an imaginary argument then, So why look, man,
I'm just looking. I'm in defense mode. I love Shay,
I get it, I get it.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
SGA is way higher on this list, and I was wrong.
I was wrong about that, and just to clean that up,
I don't know if Aunt is ever going to be
to reach those levels of what SGA can do in
the level that he's at.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
And that's why I do it now, Luca, can I
say one more thing real quick, just to crazy the
SGA offensive on off right. With him on the floor,
they have an offensive rating over one twenty. With him
off they have an offensive rating of one of four ant.
I think the situation is bad. I think he'll be
much better served later in his career in a better situation.
But with him on the floor, it's an offensive rating

(52:08):
under one thirteen. With him off the floor, it's an
offensive rating of one to ten. Like I think he
is being limited by the situation, I also think he
limits an offense with his playmaking. Specifically, that's really where
if you're gonna be an offense also one you have
to be better than this as a passer.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
I agree. I don't disagree with that. Again, the only
thing that I'll add is, I think Jason tweeted this
out the other day for End of the Show. I
think his front court is averaging two point nine three
pointers made on twenty nine percent. It's like Anthony Edwards
has also didn't disincentivize the past. It reminds me of
like a Kobe where Ant's at this point where he's like,

(52:44):
I don't trust you with the basketball, so I would rather.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
I totally agree. I think their offensive construction is really bad.
I think everything with Minnesota's offense is bad, and.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
I think it's broken.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
On the Luca point because I think this is a
really complicated issue and I love Luca's game. I think
he's one of the special offensive players that we've ever seen,
and I think his value right now, what he has
realized offensively, is greater than Anthony Edwards right now. That
being said, I think that the biggest reason why he's
not higher is because I worry about Luca's health and

(53:20):
how he takes care of his body, the stuff last year,
and also his playstyle, the heliocentric play style that plays
into my concerns about his injury, how ball dominant he is,
how he, you know, can wear himself down in the playoffs,
and his injury history. But I also with his style
of play. I mean, you can honestly say that about

(53:41):
Ant too. You know, he needs the ball in his
hands so much that like it's never going to be
like a seamless offense like a Jokic, right, you know
what I mean, It's never gonna be like an easy
Jokic touches the ball all the time, but he doesn't.
It doesn't stick right, he's moving the ball. Luca is
a guy way more in that mold of a James Harden.
And we've seen it with Luca last year going to
the NBA Finals, putting the team on his back. And

(54:03):
Kyrie deserves an imense amount of credit too. But when
the Chips were down, Luca said, I'm gonna boss up, right,
He said, hey, Gobert, step up on me. Bro I'm
gonna bang one in your mouth and we're gonna get
out of here. Luca I think can clearly be the
best offensive player on a title team. But the reason
he isn't higher for me is again, I worry about
his injuries. I worry about his style of play. I

(54:25):
worry about him taking care of his body. And defensively,
I think he's the worst defensive player on my list,
even worse than an Anthony Edwards. I just think, you know,
Ant can have his laps as too, and it's not
an elite defender by any means. Jokic, I've seen him engaged,
I've seen him lock in. He's an elite rebounder. Luca,
to me, there's just so many more clips of him.
I mean, even in the NBA Finals last year. It's

(54:47):
just disheartening. It's half the game, and if you don't
take that into the series, it's you know, it's this
is gonna sound corny, but it's like if I hit
a three on the wing on offense and then my
man hits a three on the possession, I didn't do anything.
I completely negated all the good I did. And I
think Luca can sometimes give back what he does offensively

(55:07):
on the defensive end. And so all these guys are special,
special players. But that's why Lucas at five.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
For me, I have Luca a couple spots higher. The
debate that was so hard for me was Luca versus SGA,
and I lost some sleep over this one. I ended
up with Luca at three and Sga at four. I
have Giannis at five. Wow. Yeah. The reason I have
Janas at five, by the way, is basically just age

(55:36):
and some of the injury stuff. But I was kind
of comparing him to Jokic because they're basically the only
dudes who I have who are this old in this
high on my list because they're the two best players
in basketball. But I do think Jokic is better in
a vacuum. Jokic has also been more available. He's freakishly available,
and I do think his game age is better over
time because he's so much less dependent on athleticism, like

(55:59):
infinitely less dependent on athleticism. So that's why Yanna sends
up at number five. But he's at that all time
great level right now where I'll take a few more
years of him over more years of the guys I
have below him. As Shae versus Luca is so tough, dude,
because es she makes a strong case for being the
best scorer alive. I mean, he's giving you thirty one
a night on sixty four percent true shooting. What he's
done sets Chet went down is unfathomable. The Thunder or

(56:22):
twenty and three, he's averaging like thirty three and a
half points per aam on sixty six percent true shooting.
He can carve out and efficient shot for you every
time down the floor because of his ability to score
as a driver, where he's as effective as any garden
basketball from the mid range, where he's the most effective
player in basketball, and now he's added this dimension of
pull up three point shooting. And at the same time

(56:43):
he is a good passer and he doesn't turn the
ball over. He averages just two point six turnovers per game.
I mentioned the huge difference in the Thunder offense with
him on the floor compared to off it like he
has a lot of simple catch and shoot offensive players
around him really aren't can consistently very good as catching shooters.
And Hertenstein I do think is a good offensive player,

(57:04):
but he's a non floor spacer and a non vertical spacer.
And yet Sja is on the floor and you play
as an absolutely elite offense and he's off the floor,
and you look like the worst offense in basketball. That
is so impressive, and at the same time He's third
in the league in steels and he's tied for the
most blocks by a guard. He is one of the
more effective rim protecting wings in basketball, and he is

(57:27):
one of the better ballhawks in basketball his ability to
gamble and generate steels and he's got such long arms.
I mean, he's a really good part of a phenomenal,
phenomenal team defense. So there's so so much to love
with him, and I think that he is the MVP
of this season right now with how great he's been
and how great the Thunder have been even without Chet,

(57:48):
and even though he is very ball dominant, I think
he's still pretty easy to build an awesome team around
because you can prioritize defensive personnel like this Thunder roster
has done, and he can lift your offense as just
this heliocentric monster, or you can prioritize offensive personnel. And
the more spacing you give Shay and the more shooting

(58:10):
you give him, well he's just gonna be even better.
And he can still be a positive contributor defensively and
can fill multiple roles there. So he's just an all
around monster. He's the most consistent superstar in basketball not
named yok at your Yiannis, and he's been very, very
clearly the third best player in the NBA this season.
The reason I still have Luca above him, I see

(58:33):
that there are more pitfalls with Luca. You can have
more questions about his attitude, you can have more questions
about his health. I think that might feel a little
bigger than it is right now, because he's got the
calf thing and because he was banged up in the
playoffs last year. Luca has been pretty healthy overall, but
he hasn't been quite as healthy as SGA, and you
can maybe have some issues with his extremely ball dominant,

(58:56):
helio centric style, although SGA is pretty ball dominant as well.
The thing is Lucas still an all time offensive force,
even up a level from SGA, because although I prefer
SGA as a scorer, and I think his floor there
as a score is a good bit higher, Luca is
one of the all time great playmakers. Like his ability

(59:17):
to diagnose whatever the defense is throwing at him and
pick them apart. As a passer is all time special.
His ability to make these skip passes, to make these
kickout passes. He's one of the best law passers we've seen.
I always think back to Luca's second year in the
league Man twenty twenty, when he just had spot up
shooters and Dwight Powell as a rim runner, and he

(59:39):
churned out what was, by pure offensive rating, the best
offense we've seen in the league. Like that is the
sort of dude we're talking about here. And he has
gotten better since then because he has grown considerably as
a pull up shooter. He has gotten stronger, he has
grown as a post up player, he has grown as
an off ball player. It's still not a strength, but
he's better there than he was several years ago. He

(01:00:00):
also had no creators alongside him, and I just think, man,
if you get Luka Doncic who shoots as well as
he did last regular season when he was one of
the most efficient, high volume pull up shooters in basketball,
he struggled more in the playoffs. He was very inconsistent,
but he has that pull up jump shooting ceiling, you
get that version of him offensively, and you get a

(01:00:20):
guy who engages defensively. That is just a mega destructive,
all time force. And I do think the offensive ceiling
because of that scoring and elite, elite playmaking combo it
is just up a level from SGA, and I'm gonna
prefer the greater offensive player in this context to a

(01:00:41):
guy who does have the two way edge if Luca
isn't as offensively bad as he was in the finals
last year. And that's what concerns me about having Luca
this high, because you can say, oh, well, it's the
biggest stage of his career. If he gets back there, right,
he will be engaged defensively, and if he's engaged defensively,
he's passed. He's not good, but a lot of players,

(01:01:02):
if they engage, are passable. And he is big, and
he does have good hands, and he is smart. But
that's what puzzles me. It's like that was the biggest
moment of his career. And I get that he was
banged up. He was embarrassingly bad defensively, and yeah, he
was being targeted by the best offense in terms of
attacking mismatches and going at weak points in basketball, but

(01:01:24):
also his effort, his focus was embarrassing defensively. I'm just
banking on that not happening again. And maybe that's wrong,
maybe that's the wrong bet, but I'm banking on a
healthier Luca an older Luca, a smarter Luca, understanding that
he has to at least be a functional part of
a team defense. He has to at least be just
below average instead of really really bad. And if he

(01:01:45):
gets there, I prefer his offensive edge to shase two
way edge. It's really really close. But when I think
about the best version of Luca in a playoff run, man,
it's just nuclear. It's nuclear. It's unstoppable.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
I'm surprised by this.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
I don't. I'm I'm almost surprised by it too, because
I love Sga so much. But I don't want to
overreact to Luca's worst moments, which is kind of what
I feel like is happening right now. He's done a
lot to stamp himself firmly in the top three players
in basketball.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
There's just been a lot of them. I'm I'm, I'm
just scarred a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Man.

Speaker 1 (01:02:22):
I'm I'm scarred, and I'm disappointed, and I kind of
fall on the other side.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Of where you're at.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
I think this is who Luca is, and unfortunately I
don't know if that changes. I don't want to take
anything away from because I agree with you, dude, offensively.
I think it's him. I think it's Jokic. I think
those are the two.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
I think he's at a top twelve offensive peak. We've
seen last year. I thought it was one of the
best offensive seasons ever.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
I just I don't I don't know if he's ever
gonna be able to put it fully together. Man and SGA.
I know what he's bringing me defensively. I know the
versatile I leave that SGA can bring me defensively alongside
the defensive play making like he's a stud there and
he's never gonna take a game off when I've seen
Luca mentally check.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
Out if were like a Tatum level defensive player, it
wouldn't be close, right. I just think although SJA is
a good defensive player, a lot of his value does
still come with being off ball. I don't think he's
a particularly good on ball defender. I think he's just
solid there and that's where it's like he's good at
what he does. But a player at his position can

(01:03:32):
only be so impactful defensively unless they're an absolute freak,
which he's not. And that's where again, if Luca tries
defensively eileen on his offensive edge and if he never
tries defensively. It's one of the great wastes of an
NBA talent ever, and I just really hope that that's
not the case because he's so unbelievably special offensively. There's
so few dudes in NBA history who you can look

(01:03:53):
at and say there are this level as both a
scorer and a playmaker. He's just built to rick the
defenses of art, built for it, even more than SGA.
As much as I love him, because the passing gap
is big, I'm still gonna bet on that. I am okay,
So you go Aunt at four Luca five ant is tough.

(01:04:13):
I mean, I love the guy, but I do think
Luca is just in a different level because of how
special he is offensively. Now we are into the top three,
where you have SGA, I have Luca. So we're into
the top two, and I'd be pretty surprised if we
don't agree here.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Well not actually, I have SGA at two.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Oh my god, whoa, whoa whoa fire me up, or at.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
The very least, well the three year age difference to me. Honestly,
I think Jokic is so great and his game is
so like not predicated on athleticism, that call me crazy, man.
I wonder if Jokic could play like at this level
for another not at this level, but give you another

(01:05:00):
five to six years of something comparable to this, just
because it's so I mean, not dependent on athleticism.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
He could age like Dirk as an elite passer, but
also even better because young Dirk was actually somewhat predicated
on quickness, strength, ages, so much better than any other
athletic trade. Jokic is up there for the strongest player
in basketball. I really don't see much of a fall
off coming.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
I mean, he's also gonna have that old man uh,
that old man vision and playmaking. He's already one of
the best passers ever. Man. I feel like that even
age is better with time.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
I don't know if he can't get better as a passer,
I'm not gonna lie, but it's kind of the His
arsenal should hold up very very well.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
So that was the dilemma that I was facing here.
The only thing is is, you know, I know this
is the thing with Jokic. I just don't know if
he's gonna I wonder if yok is gonna walk away
from the game. And that's the only thing that that
keeps him from being higher is I wonder if Jokic
wins another title, if he, I don't know, next five years,
he'd just go all right, you know, I got my ring,

(01:06:02):
I got my MVPs, I did my thing, and I'm good.
You know. That's the only reason that he's at number three,
because I think Jokic is a better player than SGA.
But I don't know. I just don't know if that
fire is gonna burn eternally for Jokic. And I wonder
if five years from now, if he's like, you know what,
I did it, I did it all, I'm I'm ready

(01:06:23):
to walk away. That's the only reason that he's not
in my two spots. I just wonder if Yokic hangs
it up a little prematurely.

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
It's interesting, and that has been raised as a point
with Jokic over the years. The thing with Jokic in
that discourse, in my opinion, is like he talks like, oh,
it's not such a big deal, but.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Actually loves the game. I feel like he loves the game. Though.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
Just think about what he's doing this year, and to
be fair, he should be putting more forward defensively. If
that were possible, but like he's also doing the greatest
offensive carry job that we've seen in a regular season
in NBA history. Look at how he responded against the
Minnesota last year, even though to win, but just look
at the effort he played. But look at him playing

(01:07:07):
forty seven minutes in Game seven, right. I do think
when it comes down to the big moments, Joki has
shown how much he cares in the level of competitor
that he is. Look At how much he did engage
defensively in the twenty twenty three playoff run right where
he got the most out of his physical abilities in
that run. In my opinion, in the finals, thought that

(01:07:29):
he was very, very solid defensively. That's why I'm not
going to put too much stock into the idea that
he's gonna walk away from the game early, because when
I think about how games age, I mean, yeah, he
literally might be the best equipped superstar to still be
dominating in his mid thirties that we've seen. There's nothing

(01:07:50):
about IQ. There's nothing about touch, there's nothing about strength,
there's nothing about size. There's nothing about shooting ability that
goes away or gets any worse noticeably with age. Strength
a little bit but like way less than any of
the other athletic traits. For some guy's strength gets better.
And Jokicic is still twenty nine years old, and he's
the greatest offensive force the game has ever seen. It's

(01:08:13):
everything thirty one to thirteen to ten on sixty five
percent true shooting. Denver as a team is more than
twenty five points per one hundred possessions better with him
on the floor. And the thing is, if we're talking
about building from scratch, right, if we're talking about who
do I want as the foundation of my franchise, that's
where Yokic is the easiest player to build a dominant

(01:08:34):
offense around in NBA history. I mean, just offensively this year.
I can't believe these numbers are still holding up, but
they are. They have a one to twenty eight offensive
rating with him and a ninety eight offensive rating without him. Man,
it's by far the best offense ever versus by far
the worst offense in the league when he's off. If
you take any of these other key players off the floor,

(01:08:54):
here's the Nuggets offensive rating with Jokic on the floor
and Jamal Murray off one twenty three point nine. That
would be the best offense ever. Michael Porter Junior off
yokich On won eighteen point six, So that's still a
number four offense in basketball. With yokichhn Aaron Gordon off,
they have a one thirty point nine offensive rating. There's

(01:09:18):
just no precedent. There's no comparison when it comes to
his ability to amplify everybody around him offensively and elevate
any group. Look At what he did in twenty twenty
two with basically a bench group out there, without Jamal Murray,
without Michael Porter Junior, still making that an elite offense.
Look At what he's done with Russell Westbrook this year,
tapping into all of the best possible traits that RUSS has,

(01:09:41):
maximizing their two man game.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
Did the impossible, Bro, he did the impossible. I'd see
the day.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
And I don't want to sell Rush short because there's
also so much about Russ's game that works so well
with Jokic, Putting an athlete like that around Yokic as
a cutter, putting a passer like that with him in
the two man game, like they just have beautiful, complimentary skill.
And I'm actually working on a YouTube video about Russ's
revival in their two man game right now, because it's
been so fun and I couldn't help but think, like, man,

(01:10:07):
you put Russell Westbrook with Nicolo Jokic's entire career, I
think we view him as a completely different player.

Speaker 1 (01:10:12):
Multiple I mean, you're winning, I mean, how many titles? Bro.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
It would be unstoppable, and it would also be the
only pairing in NBA history that I can think of
that would get the best version of Russ, that would
trim out the bad stuff and maximize the good stuff.
And that's what we're seeing right now, and it just
so happens to be a thirty five year old Russ.
But man, is he playing the best that he has

(01:10:36):
in years. He's the greatest offensive talent in floor raiser
that we've seen Nikolejokic is. And now this year, just
for funsies, he's averaging one point three to three points
per jumper and we're almost halfway into the season, so
he's been a ninety eight percentile jump shooter on top
of being the most unstoppable post scorer in this unstoppable

(01:10:58):
touch shot maker and the best pass in the sport.
It's just incredible. So that's the thing I think you
could put so many different groups around him, right. You say, oh, well,
Aaron Gordon is such a good compliment because of how
good he is in the dunker spot. Okay, but is
that an irreplaceable skill set? Clearly not. They've been a
better offense without Aaron Gordon. Really, they're prioritizing defense. What

(01:11:18):
they get from him defensively than what they get from
him offensively. MPJ is an awesome, awesome spot up shooter. Yeah,
that's a great fit alongside Jokic, But I mean there's
other great spot up shooters out there. Jamal Murray we've
thought of as this awesome pick and roll partner for him,
but are there not ten plus guards in the league
who would be even better, who would look even better

(01:11:38):
alongside Jokic. Like, that's the thing. I have given credit
to the Nuggets for putting really good fits around him
because I think the two men game with Jamal is
so great and the sort of off ball talents that
they've put alongside him, especially when you're talking about the
title team and you still had a real floor spacer
at the two inin KCP, Like it was a nicely
built team, but at the end of the day, it's Jolkic, man,

(01:12:01):
It's Jolkic that makes that a great offense. It's Jolkic
that could make so many different combinations of personnel great
because of his ability to physically impose himself, because of
his ability to dominate off the ball as a scorer
when he wants to, because of his ability to pick
you a part as a playmaker with these quick touches,
like just the best offensive player ever. And we know

(01:12:22):
that when he's engaged, he can be a solid contributor
in a very good team defense. I've never been somebody
who has said that Jokic is a good defender. I've
never been somebody, certainly who has said that he's an
elite defender, as I know some people have because of
these shitty metrics like defensive box plus minus that just
are terrible and if you look at their formula to joke,

(01:12:43):
but I do think that he brings positive value in
areas because he's an otherworldly defensive rebounder and he's so
smart and his hands are so good, so it's like
he's able to cover up for the fact that he's
a very limited athlete and a bad rim protecting center
better than any other center in basketball could make him
a fine defensive player who you can put a really

(01:13:03):
good team defense around with him as a solid cog
in the machine. And at the same time, you can
sacrifice a little bit on offensive personnel and know that
you're still going to be an amazing offense because you
have Yolkish. I mean, look at what he's done with
Peyton Watson out there starting right like It's just a
testament to how easy it is to build an amazing
team around the guy. He still hasn't ever played with

(01:13:25):
an All Star, and he's produced these incredible results a
year over year.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
So the greatest offensive player ever man he is.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
I love Shay, I love Shay, but a three year
age gap does not make up to the difference in
my opinion that we're talking about the greatest offensive force
ever and a top eight peak in NBA history with
Jokic and the greatest offensive floor raising job that we've
ever seen. I'll just take a few years of that
over longer periods from anybody else in the league except

(01:13:53):
for one absolute freak who is not only much younger
than Jokic, but he is the only guy in the
league who I actually think can be better and I
expect to be better and that guy's in a tier
of his own. But Shay, as much as I love him,
he's not at that level as an individual force. The
difference between them right now is too big for me
to have Shay higher.

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think he's the best guard in basketball.
I think SGA is gonna break through and breakthrough when
a title this year, Man, I think it's very possible.

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
As my pick before the year, we just got to
see Chap back out there. Man, we got to see
how much Chat helps things offensively. But I couldn't be
more optimistic about Okay see a big picture or Shay.
I love Shae very much.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
And uh, I mean number one, the expectation is he's
gonna be the greatest player of all time?

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
Is that your expectation?

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
I mean you look back at the last guy, and
it was Lebron, and he was the chosen one and
he was crowned as That's what's so remarkable to me
about Lebron's career is he came in and everybody said,
this guy's gonna be the greatest player ever. Yeah, Lebron
didn't live up to that. He would have been disappointing.
Wenby's expectation is he gonna be the greatest player ever,

(01:15:00):
and if he doesn't live up to that somehow, it's
a disappointment. But I do. I mean, you're getting otherworldly
defensive value. That's where you can start with Wemby, right.
He can just do things defensively that nobody else can do.
He can block shots and make recoveries and also too,
I don't know if Wemby's full defensive value pops up,

(01:15:21):
because it's like some guys won't even drive on him,
Like some guys will just not take shots, they'll just
stay away from the paint because Wemby is such a
good deterrent. I think he needs to get more polished
on that end, like with the technical things like we
were talking about with Chet and Mobiley, Like, I think
there's some technical cleaning up to do with Wemby. But
it's one of one traits that he has, and I

(01:15:41):
think he's gonna be the greatest defensive playmaker and greatest
defensive player ever when you have physical tools like that,
that's my expectation. And then offensively, he can just do
stuff with a certain ease that nobody else can. What
are the two most valuable shots in basketball today, an
open three pointer and a shot at the rim. Okay,
you've seen what Chris Paul has been able to do

(01:16:01):
with him this year, throwing lobs off the backboard, throwing
all kind of lobs everywhere, and Wenby's an elite play finisher.
And then this year what he's been doing shooting behind
the arc, you see the glimpses of him being one
of the greatest shooting big men of all time. It's like,
and then I just see Wemby rounding out the parts
of his game where there aren't any holes, him becoming

(01:16:22):
a special playmaker. Right with the defensive attention he's gonna draw,
him getting better at going on the low block and
developing a postbag. To me, that's really when I think
Wenby is going to become unstoppable, because again, he can
get those shots at the rim at will when he
wants to, because he's so freakish, and you can just
throw the ball anywhere up in the square and he

(01:16:42):
can finish it, and he can shoot over everybody. Once
Wemby can develop that you know inside the arc, that
back to the basket, you know, turnarounds, hooks, whatever. That's
why I think he's gonna be fully complete and he's
gonna be really unstoppable. Yeah, I mean that's my expectation.
I think he's going to be the greatest player of
all time, and I don't think you can have anybody

(01:17:05):
else at number one. I would hear an argument for Jokic,
I think, but I think Wemby, I think has to
be has to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:17:15):
It's a really hard argument to make, man, when I'm
just getting another eight plus years of Wemby. Guy turns
twenty one years old tomorrow, Man, and he's averaging twenty
six ten and four with four blocks per game on
sixty one percent through shooting, and the offensive growth that
we've seen from him is just terrifying. You mentioned the
two most valuable shots. He's almost seventy seven percent in

(01:17:38):
the restricted area this year. That's absurd. There's nobody who
finishing around the rim is easier for than the seven
to four fluid mover with an eight foot wingspan, and
he's almost thirty six percent from three. He's an elite
pick and roll finisher at the rim, and as a popper,
he's an elite transition. Big just glides down the court,
in the full court, and he already had as that

(01:18:00):
like top tier superstar impact. The Spurs are for fourteen
points per hundred possessions better with him on the floor.
Out of these elite guys, the only dudes who are
surpassing that number are Sga and Jolkic this year. Like,
it's ridiculous how impactful he is and his floor for
the next decade is best defensive player on the planet.
As much as I love Cheton Mobley, I just think

(01:18:22):
the more that Wemby grows, the bigger the gap between
those guys can become. I mean grows, not literally that
would be fucking freakish. I'm talking about in terms of
his understanding of the game. The physical tools there, it
just cannot be rivaled by anybody, can't be rivaled by
anybody in NBA history. And it's not just the height

(01:18:43):
in the length, it's also the ability to guard very
capably in space, especially for a seven foot four freak.
So yeah, I do think he's gonna be the best
defensive player on the planet, maybe by a good bit,
maybe the best defensive player we've seen since Bill Russell,
maybe the best defensive player ever period. And then offensively,
He'll be able to walk into an efficient twenty five

(01:19:04):
plus a night because his physical advantages are so overwhelming,
and he can also shoot thirty five plus percent from
three on high volume. Like that's just so much guaranteed
production and guaranteed value every night. And then on top
of that, he can continue to develop. He will get stronger,

(01:19:24):
and I think as he does get stronger, that's when
you're talking about a guy who could literally be the
best player ever. Because if he can start going through
people as a driver, if he can start posting up
more comfortably and move defensive players and doesn't get pushed
off his spots by guys with a lower center of gravity,
that's just completely unstoppable. He'll probably get a tighter handle.

(01:19:45):
It's tough at seven foot four, but hey, he'll continue
to work on that. He'll continue to try to improve that.
He will get better as a passer. He's already a
very good passer for his age and position, but I
do think he'll continue to grow there. And then when
this situation around him gets better, he's just gonna continue
to blowsome man when he plays with an actual elite guard.

(01:20:07):
This is what I've been saying, since he was a
rookie man, if you put him with a Trey Young,
you put him with a real advantage creator and an
elite playmaker, his offense is going to be so disgustingly easy,
so disgustingly efficient. When you're manufacturing those lobs for a
seven foot four guy, or you're manufacturing those open picking
pop threes for a seven to four guy who shoots

(01:20:28):
like Wemby, it's just unconscious. It's unconscious.

Speaker 1 (01:20:32):
So certainly too, I think Wemby's gonna amplify the guard
that he plays.

Speaker 2 (01:20:35):
Of course, oh, of course, of course. But I'm just
thinking in terms of his individual production and efficiency, it's
gonna keep getting better from here. Everything's gonna keep getting better.
So I ask you, do you honestly think he's gonna
be the best player ever? What I would say right
now is I think we're looking at a future top
four player in NBA history. I think we're looking at
a guy who is going to be up there with

(01:20:56):
Lebron and Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul Jabbar on the
out rushmore in NBA history. At this point, he's just
still too young for me to say definitively if he's
going to surpass Lebron or MJ. There's just too much
left right, too much basketball development left. He has physical

(01:21:17):
tools like we've never seen, but those dudes are the
pinnacle of the sport and I'm not gonna rush to
say that anybody is gonna unseat them. And Kareem was
the best player in basketball for what like eleven years,
Like he is also firmly in that top three tier.
Everybody after that, I just think there's too much overwhelming
two way ability for me to expect anything less. Like

(01:21:40):
we were talking about our greatest peaks right a team,
Shack Jokic, all these other great bigs are up there,
will to Bill Russell. There's a lot of centers actually,
specifically in that range. I think that Wemby has an
ability to reach a two way level that none of
those guys did. And he's already reaching that level so fast.

(01:22:02):
I mean, he's so good as a second year player.
He's one of the best second year players that we've
ever seen. Sky's the limit, man, there is no limit.
There literally is no limit for Wemby, and I'm expecting
nothing short of a Tier one player in NBA. History,
and yeah, I don't think you can argue anybody else
as the dude you would want to start your franchise with.

Speaker 1 (01:22:22):
I mean, the final component is the exponential growth that
you're talking about. How he's just continued to spike and
take a leap after leap. Right like five months into
the basketball season. Last year he took a leap. This
year he's taken another.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
Leave sooner than that. He took a leap two months
into the year. I mean, once he moved to center
last year, he got so much. He kept getting better
and better, and this year he started slow, and then
all of a sudden, he's playing like an undeniable top
eight player, first team All NBA player. I totally agree.
There's just so much to grow into and we've seen
it happen so fast, Like exponential growth is the standard

(01:22:57):
with this dude.

Speaker 1 (01:22:58):
It is. I can't wait because I think the second
that the Spurs, you know, make that commitment to put
a real contender around him, I think the Spurs are
there and they're going to be a problem.

Speaker 2 (01:23:09):
Oh my god. Yeah, it's insane what he's already doing. Dude,
I didn't think that he could have this team in
playoff conversations as incredible as we all know that he is,
and that's what he's doing this year. Shall we talk
about honorable mentions? Logan, who were the toughest cuts for
you from this list?

Speaker 1 (01:23:25):
I asked you before the show started if you thought
this was ridiculous. I did consider having your boy of
men Thompson on here, just because that dude's a He
might be the greatest athlete I've ever seen. Yeah, that
guy is a freak dude. He can just do stuff
that I've never seen anybody else do. He's going to

(01:23:46):
be a defensive monster. He's a good passer, and he
can do stuff off ball. It's just the the scoring
element of his game isn't there yet, truth be told,
Even though he is older. I really did consider Steph,
And the reason I considered Steph was we're talking about
Jokic's game aging gracefully. I think Steph is another one

(01:24:06):
of those guys who, even when he gets older, is
going to have an immense level of impact. And I
don't think he's going to be a guy who's able
to be a Number one anymore. I wonder if he's
still there now. But Steph, I think could be like
a great number two on a championship winning team. I mean,
it's just the gravity that he has, the defensive attention

(01:24:27):
that he has, the playmaking, Like I think Steph's a
better passer than he's ever been at this stage in
his career, right, Like, he doesn't have a ton of
ball left and he's not going to pressure the rim
or turn back the clock athletically, but like, those are
unalienable things that I think you're gonna age really gracefully
with Steph's game. And so I did consider him a

(01:24:49):
few other guys. I did consider Trey Young, but like
when I'm looking at like him versus the Jalen Brunson
or something like that, I'd much prefer Jalen Brunson's game.
I just think he's more efficient. He tras a one
man offense, but he's just more inefficient than him, and
I feel like it's tougher for him to manufacture great looks.

(01:25:10):
And then the last couple of guys I'll give a
shout to. I don't know if this seemed any of
these names seem crazy. You tell me if I'm off
my rocker right now, Carson, I thought about Brandon Miller
because I think Brandon Miller's gonna be really good. I
thought about Jdubb Jalen Williams just because I think Jadab's
gonna be really good. Uh, this is probably my hottest
one with what he was doing this year. I really

(01:25:33):
thought about Jade and Ivy.

Speaker 2 (01:25:34):
Oh my, I don't know. I think you, buddy, I've.

Speaker 1 (01:25:40):
Always liked Jade and Ivy and it sucks, man, because
he broke his freaking egg and that shit breaks my
heart because that's such a hard injury.

Speaker 2 (01:25:49):
You think j and Ivy is a better building block
than Cad.

Speaker 1 (01:25:53):
Yeah, I do. Wow, Wow, I just think the way
Jayden can get to the rim. Don't get me wrong.
Jaden's way more raw right now. He's got to take
because Caid's so much better than him right now. Like
I think Jayden would have to take an exponential leap
over the next three years. But and obviously this injury
hinders it, so we'll see what he looks like when

(01:26:15):
he comes back. But I wouldn't rule it out, man,
I think Jayden is I think Jayden's gonna be a
stud dude. He's such an athletic freak and the jumper
was on this year and you saw some of the playmaking.
He's just got that rare combination man of you know,
athleticism and rim pressure and shooting as well. Excuse me,

(01:26:35):
I like Jade and Ivy a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
I like j and Ivy a lot too. I just
think Cade man the size, the playmaking, the defensive tools,
emphasis on the playmaking. There's such a massive gap there.
To me, it's no question that Cad is their best asset.
But I would shout out some of the guys you
mentioned too. Steph just too old man, just way too
old and already declining. I'm not going to consider a

(01:26:58):
thirty six year old who on a I do have
some concerns about right now. I also consider Jada. He
was one of my toughest cuts. I think he's such
a great all around player. I also really considered Franz.
It's unfair, it is unfair. But also look at the Magic.
I mean, the Magic have two of my top fifteen guys.
For sure. I think that they're going to be such

(01:27:19):
a great wing duo, and Franz is just the sort
of versatile, do it all winning wing that you absolutely want.
The other guys who I really considered were Donovan Mitchell,
Jalen Brunson, who you had on there, and Devin Booker.
I mean, there are all these twenty eight year old
guards who I think are phenomenal Offensively. I think that

(01:27:39):
Brunson is my favorite. I think he's such a great
floor raiser with his scoring arsenal, his on ball versatility
and his playmaking. But I think that Mitchell, we've seen
the ceiling that he can explode to and book I
just think is such an incredible offensive compliment to basically
any other lead player. You could put him alongside or
really just in about any offense. I know he's having

(01:28:00):
a rough year, but I believe in him. But ultimately,
it was pretty easy for me to land on Mobili
and Poolo for my last couple spots because I think
their ceilings are so high, and also they're so much
younger than those other guys who I was mentioning the
guys who are better right now. Last dude who I
considered even for a split second was Anthony Davis, but

(01:28:20):
he's too old, but he is the guy in that
like Superstar now tier who I considered because Katie too old,
Steph too old and regressing, But I would rather have
an extra decade of Evan Mobley or Poelo Bancaro than
I would whatever we have left of Anthony Davis pretty easily.
So that was a pretty easy call for me. This

(01:28:41):
was a lot of fun, man, I really enjoyed this
twenty twenty five. We're look into the future. The future
is bright for the NBA Cooper flag. Also, who knows
where he would rank among these guys. I think Cooper
is one of the best prospects we've seen in a
long while.

Speaker 1 (01:28:56):
Before we get out of here, Carson, Yes, I want
to ask you about some of the guys other people
may have considered for this least. Okay, I just want
to ask, like, where do you fall down on a
guy like Jared Jackson Junior?

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
Ooh, Triple J is interesting. I very briefly considered him
because I do think he has been awesome this year.
I mean I have never enjoyed him more with his
growth offensively, with just his assertiveness, his comfort handling, his
touch has been so so good this year. I would

(01:29:30):
consider him. To me, It's just like I think that
Mobile is better defensively, and I think that Mobili can
be at least what Triple J is offensively right now.
I don't think that he'll be quite the score that
Triple J is, but he's so much better as a passer.
Triple J is a really really bad passer for me,
mobile is pretty easily clear, and he's a couple of

(01:29:50):
years younger, but shout out Triple J. He belongs on
the outskirts of this conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:29:55):
Another guy. I feel like people would point to Alprin Sengin.
What do you think about Sengin?

Speaker 2 (01:30:00):
Yeah? Man, you know I've been really impressed by Sheng Gooon.
I know you say his name is pronounced Shengen. I
don't know. I just don't know how I feel about that.

Speaker 1 (01:30:08):
I need to do the research, cooler objective.

Speaker 2 (01:30:11):
It is cooler, and that's how I've always heard it pronounced.
The thing with Alby, Yeah, true, the thing with Albi
as I call him because we're friends. Although he has
improved defensively, he's still just not my favorite offensive player.
He's super skilled. The post game is sexual to watch.

(01:30:32):
The passing is sexual to watch, but because of his
lack of floor spacing, because of his touch issues, because
he's not actually an efficient finisher or mid range shot maker,
like he's just an inefficient score. He's under fifty five
percent true shooting this year, so he's not an impressive
enough offensive player for me to consider him over a
two way force like a Mobile or a guy with

(01:30:54):
the offensive ceiling of a Pallo.

Speaker 1 (01:30:57):
All right, and then the last crop of guys that
I feel like people I consider a Ja Morant, ball Tyresse, Maxi, all.

Speaker 2 (01:31:05):
Of them, I'm just pretty easily gonna prefer Mobley's two
way skill set. I just think it's frankly a lot
rarer and it's so impassionble to have a dude who's
gonna make you an elite defense and then can be
a good offensive player, whereas LaMelo Jaw those guys are
really good playmakers, but they cannot individually lead you on

(01:31:27):
their own to being a good offense. Maxi is a
tier below that in terms of what he can do
for you on his own because he's not on that
same level as a playmaker. So again, Mobili pretty easily
clear for me of all those guys.

Speaker 1 (01:31:41):
Yeah, I'm in agreement with all those two.

Speaker 2 (01:31:43):
But he gave a voice to the people man, a
voice to those.

Speaker 1 (01:31:45):
I mean, I know there's a lot of people that
I know a lot of those guys would probably be
on people's you know, either in the top ten or
right outside.

Speaker 2 (01:31:52):
Yeah. Also, by the way, check out this vintage Cavs
drip that I got on so hard. So I'm telling you, bro,
twenty twenty five is the year of the vintage NBA drip,
and I'm classing my wardrobe up all around. I'm gonna
be wearing pants, I'm gonna be wearing shirts all right.

Speaker 1 (01:32:07):
I don't think y'all realize how much Carson wearing pants
is a big deal. Dude. I think the I think
the how long do we live together? Two years?

Speaker 2 (01:32:16):
Yeah, year and a half.

Speaker 1 (01:32:17):
I think I saw you wear pants once, and it
was to my funeral. I really can't remember who it was,
but you wore pants once.

Speaker 2 (01:32:27):
That was Arizona. But also, I don't know why I'm
acting like it's any different here. It's incredibly rare that
I wear pants. But look, man, we're classing it up
in twenty twenty five. Dressed well to test well. As
my buddy Rex Peters always says, big ups. All right, guys,
appreciate you tuning in. Hope you enjoyed this one. Hope
your New Year's off to a wonderful start. How much
longer can we say Happy New Year for Logan? Nope,

(01:32:48):
that's the wrong answer. I'm gonna say a few more days.
I think he get a week. I think he get
the opening week, and then we'll stop. But for now,
it's all right. I'll just go fuck myself then and
I'll take back that. I hope you Logan can that
have a miserable New Year? And I hope everybody who
enjoys our show continues watching it and enjoying it. If

(01:33:09):
you want more of our stuff, all of our full
shows are on YouTube, and we also have our video
essays video breakdowns. As I mentioned, I'm working on one
on Russell Westbrook's resurgence right now. May do something on
Jokic Wemby. No promises, no promises because I'm busy, but
I'm just so excited to watch those matchups. But that's

(01:33:29):
all on our YouTube channel, and you can listen to
the show across all audio platforms. You can also see
all of our trivia content across social media TikTok, Instagram,
at nerd Sesh, Twitter, at nerd Underscore Sesh. We've also
got graphics from the show whenever we do a ranking
like this one, we get a fun list graphic out
there and everybody gets really mad at us, and that's great,
especially when we have THEO on the show and he

(01:33:49):
has Baker Mayfield. This is number twenty three quarterback in
the NFL, So stay tuned in for that, and if
you want, you can join our discord. The link to
that is at the link tree across our social media
bios to just hang with the gang, talk some ball,
and you can check out our merch The link to
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(01:34:13):
appreciate you guys. I've been Carson Braber and this was
nerd sad

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Nerd Sesh - Top 10 NBA Players to Start a Franchise With

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Logan Camden

Carson Breber

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