October 9, 2024 • 27 mins
Newt talks with filmmaker Michael Pack about his new documentary, "Get the Jew: The Crown Heights Riot Revisited,” which examines the 1991 Crown Heights riot in New York City, the worst antisemitic riot in American history. The riot was triggered by a car accident involving a Hasidic Jewish driver and a black child, leading to violent attacks on the Jewish community. The documentary, part of the Wall Street Journal's Opinion Doc series, explores the historical context of Crown Heights, the racial tensions, and the media's portrayal of the events. Newt and Michael discuss the political and social implications of the riot, the role of the media, and the ongoing issue of antisemitism. Watch the film here: https://www.youtube.com/@WSJopinion
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
On this episode of Newsworld, The new documentary Get the
Jew The Crown Heights Riot Revisited sheds light on the
worst anti Semitic riot in American history, which occurred in
New York City in nineteen ninety one. After a car
crash in which a Hasidic Jewish driver accident, a hit
and killed a black child, rioters set upon the local
(00:26):
Jewish neighborhood in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. Jews were attacked in
the streets along with Jewish stores, homes, and cars. One
Hasidic man who was stabbed to death. Mayored David Dinkins
in the New York Police Department allowed the riot to
rage for three full nights, egged on by racial provocateurs,
while many in the media played down or excused the
(00:49):
anti Semitism at the heart of the violence. The film
was part of a new series produced by The Wall
Street Journal's Opinion Docks series and is available on YouTube
dot org. Here to talk about the film, I'm really
pleased to welcome back my guest and good friend, Michael Pack.
He is a documentary filmmaker and the president and CEO
(01:11):
of Palladium Pictures. Michael, welcome and thank you for joining
me on Nuts World.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Thank you for having me on newt Michael.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Can you describe Crown Heights historically for us?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
I think that's a good question because the background of
Crown Heights is important to understand the Crown Heights riots
of nineteen ninety one. So Crown Heights, Brooklyn had historically
been a Jewish neighborhood, and there were different sects and
kinds of Jews that were there, Conservative, Reformed, Orthodox. But
then in the sixties, black people started moving in, and
(01:55):
there was the phenomenon of white flight, not uncommon throughout
New York City, and in fact, black people moved in
and middle class white people moved out, often in this
case to Long Island or the Bronx. However, one group
of Jewish people did not move out, and that was
Khabad Lubavich, which is a kind of Hasidics act that
(02:17):
had an internationally famous rabbi, the Rebbi Menachem Sheerson, and
he had fled the Holocaust, and he was a world
famous religious leader. Heads of Israel, presidents in the United
States consulted and visited him, and he said he had
fled the Holocaust, and he said, we live here we're
(02:38):
not moving out. We can get along with the black
people who've moved in.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
We are staying. So they stayed.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
And meanwhile, a lot of especially Haitian people and people
from the Islands, had moved in, and a lot of
Guyanese people. And there was tension throughout the sixties and seventies,
And that was a period in New York City where
there was violence in general, and there was violence in
Crown Heights. Crown Heights was a poor neighborhood. The Jews
(03:05):
there were poor and the Blacks there were poor, and
there were tension, there was violence, and there was a
feeling among some of the black people in that neighborhood
that maybe the Jews were getting a better shape from
the city. They seemed to be doing better than their
black neighbors. The Jews might attribute it to harder work,
the Blacks might attribute it to favors from the city. Anyway,
(03:25):
tensions were strong, rising into the seventies and eighties, and
then right before the Crown Heights riot, there was in
New York City in general, a wave of black nationalism.
Prior news item of this sort that was covered at
the time concerned Leonard Jeffries, who is Haking Jeffries, the
(03:47):
current Minority leader of the House's uncle, and he had
been the head of African American studies at the City
University of New York, and he had made controversial anti
submitted comments. He called white people ice people and black
people some people implied that they were completely different. One
was good, one was bad. He talked about Jewish people
(04:08):
being involved in the slave trade and being responsible for
this and that ill and this was highly controversial at
the time. It was also the time that Lewis Farakhan
was much in the news with similar comments, so tensions
were high leading into the summer of nineteen ninety one,
which was a very hot summer in New York.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
How much do you think something as simple as the heat,
the lack of air conditioning, and people living in tenements
with no place to go, how much that just the
physical discomfort contribute to what would happen.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I think it has a lot to do with it.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
You know, people were hot, they were uncomfortable, and they
were out on the streets. I mean, this was somewhat
similar to the George Floyd riots, where people were out
on the street because they had been cooped up in COVID.
So a lot of those things I think exacerbate pre
existing tensions, and that was certainly true for this hot
summer in August of nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
What was the trigger point? I mean, why did this
suddenly explode?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Well, the Rebbi Menachem Schneerson every month visited the graves
of his recently deceased wife and his predecessor several miles
away in Queen's and then he would go there every month,
and he was accompanied by a police escort because he
was an internationally known and important religious figure.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So he was coming back.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
There was a police escort in front. His car was
number two, and a third car was behind him with
Yosa Flish, one of his assistants, and two others, and
they were.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Going through a light. Some say it was yellow, some
say it was red.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
And the first two cars went through what was green,
and this third car, driven by Yosa Fish either ran
the yellow or the red to follow. The police car
was flashing its lights and sirens, and he may well
have thought he still had the ok to go ahead,
but he crashed into another car and he careened off.
That other car hit some say a pillar, and then
(06:00):
he smashed off that pillar and then pinned two young
Guyanese children who were playing with their bicycles on the street,
and they got pinned under his car. One of them
later died, Gavin Cato, and one of them his cousin,
later lived.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
But there was this crash, and right.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Away, because it was a hot summer and people were
on the street, crowds gathered and people were shouting.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
He did it on purpose.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
The Jewish ambulance that came first left without treating the
black people. The Jews are getting away with something. We've
got to punish the Jews. And in fact, you know,
Charles Price, one of the people there, really whipped up
the crowd and said, you.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Know, let's go get the Jews and mobs the.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Black people then went out through Crown Heights and three
hours later the accident happened at eight. At about eleven
that night, this crowd with Charles Price ran into a
Hasidic student who happened not to be Abade, but a
Hasidic student who was dressed in the black hat and
the black coat that clearly marked him as Jewish. And
(07:02):
they said there's a Jew, let's get them, hence their
title get the Jew and they ganged up on them.
They beat him and one of them had a knife,
Lemerick Nelson, and he stabbed Jackel Rosenbaum multiple times. And
then jackle Rosenbaum was taken to a hospital and died,
but the riots continued. That was the day one of
the riots.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
But let me say this a second, he goes if
I understand it, Grecly Rosenbaum is a Jewish University of
Melbourne student.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Yes, he's from Australia. He was a graduate student doing
his studies on anti Semitism and treatment of Jews, and
he was researching that in the United States. That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
He clearly has nothing to do except he's a random target.
It's an additional tragedy about this whole event. We go ahead.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
That was day one, which ended really in Jack Rosenbaum's death.
But by day two Al Sharpton and other people had
come in from other burrows. Al Sharpton says he was
invited by Gavin Kato's father who had been killed, and
there were then riots and it whipped up a frenzy
and the police seemed to be standing around and doing nothing.
(08:11):
And that went on for days, days until the police chief,
the first black police chief in the first Black Mayor
David Dinkins were themselves attacked and then they said let's
end the riot, and it ended three hours later. So
one of the questions the documentary poses is why the delay,
Why the unwillingness to stop this riot.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Why do you think the police chief and the mayor
took that position.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
We asked the question in the film, But to my mind,
it is because they were afraid of taking on the
left wing of their party, the Black nationalists, the radical wing.
They just felt they could not offend them. You know. Significantly,
the mayor David Dinkins went to the funeral of Gavin
Cato as well he should, but he did not attend
(08:59):
the funeral of the ankle Rosenbaum, and I think he
felt that he couldn't offend this wing of his party
and he let it go, I believe nude. It's also
somewhat parallel to what happened on college campuses recently, where
there was anti Semitic chance and harassment of students and
college presidents felt they couldn't act.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
In your judgment, is the depth of anti semitism that
deep in the system, and we've just been underestimating it.
Because it doesn't spring forth.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
I think it is pretty deep. And you know, I'm Jewish,
and it's always shocking when it kind of rises to
the surface, as it did in the campus as recently,
and as it did in Frown Heights in nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I think it's prett shocking.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
And I hear from my Abad connections in Crown Heights
that their view is it's an ongoing problem. They feel
it's happened continuously since nineteen ninety one. It may be
at a peak now, but in their mind never stops.
It's a very hard phenomenon to explain, but it does
run deep.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
What was the role of the news media for those
two or three days. Was there media condemnation of the
riots or was the media also intimidated.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
We interviewed New York Times reporter Ari Goldman, who covered
the riots for the New York Times, and he says
that he would call into the New York Times in
those days, you would go out on the field, do
the reporting, phone it in to your editor, and the
editor would write it up and put on a headline.
So Ari would say he would be phoning it in
and the headlines would come back, you know, Blacks and
(10:51):
Jews fight in Crown Heights. And after days of this,
Ari said, we're getting it wrong. It's not blacks and
Jews are fighting each other. Blacks are beating up Jews.
That's what's happening. That's the story. But The New York
Times was resistant to covering it that way. And this
is sort of shocking to.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Most of us.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
I mean, the New York Times owned by Jewish people.
You think they would want to cover it in the
straightforward manner that it was required to be covered.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
But that did not happen.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
A lie to that is the failure of a lot
of mainstream Jewish organizations to condemn it. A Foxman, who
is then the head of the ADL, the Anti Defamation League,
apologized for not condemning it at the time.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Was that in part.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Because the core group that was involved were seen as
outside the mainstream of most American Jews or was there
sort of a sense of their different Yeah, I think that's.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Exactly what it was. Newte They're different.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
They dress like they were in eighteenth century Poland, they
speak Yiddish, they don't live on the Upper East Side
or the Upper West Side, they don't go to zabar
As they're culturally different. This is just happening to them
way over there in Brooklyn, not our problem. But as
those very same people found this last year during these
(12:14):
protests on college campuses, that their own sons and daughters
are not immune to harassment along those lines too. And
it's never just those Jews over there, not for the
more liberal Jews, and not for the non Jews either.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
It's interesting also that has hitting Jews in Crown Heights
decided that they would take it and stay and fight
it out. And to the best of my knowledge, they're
still overwhelmingly in Crown Heights.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
On they they are overwhelmingly in Crown Heights. I will
say that the Crown Heights neighborhood, just to update our
earlier discussion of this, has now been pretty gentrified. I mean,
it was a rough neighborhood in the seventies, eighties and
into the nineties. It's not such a rough neighborhood now.
I mean it can be rough at moments, but it's
really much more gentrified. Apartments are much more expensive.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
But that did not stop.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Our film ends with a stabbing in Crown Heights just
this last month, where another young Hasidic man was stabbed
by a black man saying free Palestine and do you
want to die stabbed.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Luckily, this time he was.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Stabbed and suffered only minor wounds. But it's the same
thing again and again in Crown Heights. So it's changed,
but some things are staying the same, and not good things.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
You point out that when finally Mary Dinkins does go
to Crown Heights to tell a crowd not to use violence,
they attacked him.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Indeed, I mean that's the thing. There's now appeasing these people.
I mean, that is the problem that Democrats have with
the left wing of their party. They cannot be appeased.
It's a tricky thing. Even if you politically want to
appease them, it kind of can't be done. Whatever Mery
Dinkins did was not enough for them. Bottles were thrown him,
his black police chief had his car attacked. He had
(14:04):
to call for help. So it was at that point
that they called for the riot to end.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
And did they just ended with the New York Police Department.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Yeah, they called in Ray Kelly, who was then a
deputy police chief later to be police chief, and said,
and the riot and he did the things that you
do to end riots. At the time, he brought in horses,
he blocked off streets with big vans. He didn't just
let people run loose. And within hours, according to Ray Kelly,
who we interviewed, it ended within hours. So it wasn't
(14:34):
that hard to end. I mean, the demonstrations went on,
the tensions went on, but the rioting ended.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
I mean I always thought, for example, with the various
Columbia University, he would take one day of seriousness and
the whole thing would collapse, but the leadership won't be serious.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I think at Colombia they kind of waffled. They sent
in the police, and they apologized for sending in the police.
And you know, you can't have it every which way,
and that's really a problem.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
It's a psychological challenge. They want to be loved, but
they also want to be authorities.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
That's correct, and you can't do both.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
So from Dinkin's standpoint, what was the effect on him
politically after the riot, Well, we.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Believe that it's one of the reasons he lost the
next mayoral election to Rudy Giuliani. As Elliot Kaufman, the
Well Street Journal opinion writer whose work this is based on,
points out you would think that he would lose a
lot of the Jewish vote, but he only lost three
percent of the Jewish vote compared to his previous election.
He lost votes among white ethnics in the outer boroughs
(15:42):
like Staten Island and Queens who just didn't like to
see riots in their city, and that turned it for
Rudy Giuliani, who ran on a law and order campaign.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
So it did not work.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
And I don't actually think appeasing your violent friend ever works.
It looks like it's going to work, it looks like
it can be a balancing act, but it doesn't work well.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
And there are also a lot of good lessons through
that in the Middle East. Indeed, which is why I'm
very much for what net Yahoo's doing, and I think
that it's nice to find it policy based on reality
and not on fantasy. I was only surprised by the
way on your research, I didn't realize how close it
was with everything that had gone wrong, the city is
still so democratic that Rudy barely wins.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
That's a good point.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
I mean, I think one of the problems in American
cities is that so many of them are just one
party cities where the other party has which is usually
the Republican Party, has no chance, and it's very tough
to have a one party anything. You know, there's corruption,
there's just kind of laziness, there's extremes. I think this
(16:50):
was what happened to many of the cities across the
country during the George Floyd protests. They're run by a
democratic elite that is crippled, but you know, is looking
to protecting their extreme than anyone in the middle. It's
an amazing thing in a way that Rudy Giuliotti did
win that election, and in fact he turned the city around.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah. No, it's one of the great success stories of
the late twentieth century. Why did you decide to do
(17:32):
a documentary specifically about the Crown Heights riot.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Well, it's part of this new collaboration that my company,
Plating Pictures has with the Wall Street Journal Opinion section,
and we have collaborated to do a series of documentaries,
maybe three to six a year that will tell stories
that maybe the mainstream media has ignored or misreported, or
simply have failed to notice. These are stories that I
(17:58):
think are important to tell. We want to tell them
in this same format of twenty to thirty minute short documentaries.
This is a format pioneered by the New York Times
op docs. The Atlantic has a series like that, The
New Yorker has a series like that, and they all
come from a progressive left perspective. So where are the
stories that Wolfty Journal opinion readers might think are important,
(18:19):
that have maybe been forgotten like the Crown Heights riot,
but are relevant today. And there are a whole bunch
of those that are left on a table, from stories
about the George Floyd protests or COVID recent past to
nineteen ninety one. And we need to understand our history
if we're not going to repeat it, and in the
Crown Heights case, it looks like we are repeating it.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So it's good to.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Learn those lessons, and it's important to tell those stories.
And although this is a partnership with the Wolfstet Journal
Opinion section, we aspire to tell these stories in a straightforward,
fact based narrative way, which I think we've done with
the Crown Heights story.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
You make a point that the rise in anti Semitism
is happening in France, It's happening in Britain as well
as the United States. I mean, there's something really dangerous.
I think about the wave we're currently living through. It
has the potential to do current and permanent damage.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I think it really does.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I think it may be comforting to some to think
of it as only anti Semitism, but I think it's
almost always closely allied to fear of the modern world
and closely allied to hatred of America, as it is
in the Middle East, you know, the Little Satan in
the Great Satan Israel. In America, these are tied to
other really dangerous ideas. That it's bad enough anti Semitism
(19:38):
per se, but it doesn't even stop there. And you're right,
it's in worldwide phenomena.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
So when somebody sees this film, do you have a
message you hope they'll leave with.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I hope that they can see current events through this lens,
understand that this sort of pattern has a history. Instead
of man that it not be repeated, demand that our
leader shows some courage, you know, not let this go on.
That's sort of the message. Of course, we also want
people who see it to continue to watch of our
(20:11):
upcoming Wall Street Journal opinion docs.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Well, so I was going to ask you that do
you have any notion yet of what some future topics
might be.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
We do. The very next one is almost finished, and
it's a documentary about the prime ministership of Liz Trust,
who is the shortest lived prime minister in British history
forty four days, and we tell the story of her
time as Prime Minister.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
It's called The Prime Minister Versus.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
The Blob because Liz Trust feels that she was done
in by the British version of the administrative State or
the swamp, which they call the Blob. Actually, I think
a better name for it. So we have her tell
how that worked out, to play it out, and we
have some people who disagree with her, from both her
own party, the Tory Party and the Labor Party making
the opposite case. But it includes a very long interview
(20:59):
with Liz Trust and explains her point of view, and
I think it's an important point of view, and that
this way it's just like Crown Heights, it's got an
American parallel.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
There are people that I know, and.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
I'm sure we both know, who feel that President Trump's
problem with the administrative State had to do with his
unusual personality of his governing style and maybe his lack
of knowledge about government. But Liz trust is like the
opposite of Donald Trump. She's a completely different personality. She's
been in government a long time. If she too is
done in by the administrative state, it shows you that's
(21:32):
a problem with the sort of elites across the West.
So that one's coming up in November.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I find her to be a very interesting person and
I think that probably the Tory Party would have been
better off had she survived.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
I think that is true. Certainly they couldn't be worse off.
The idea that they fixed those problems is not what happened.
And now they have the Labor Party, so that can
happen to us too. We also have coming up up
something I mentioned to you in our last podcast. I
think my son Thomas was on too. We have this
incubator to train young right of center Thomas lakes to say,
(22:10):
non woke filmmakers. We had a class of four this
year and we're accepting new applicants on our website, which
is pladio pictures dot com. But the first four have
finished their films and they're also short films, and they're
also on important and neglected topics, and I hope we
can come back and discuss them when those films are
finished too.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Gladium Pictures as an incubator project, and so somebody who's
listening to us, who knows some young person who'd like
to get into film, they want to go to Pladium
Pictures to look at what you're doing and how to apply.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
That's right, it has an apply now button. We encourage
anyone to apply. I mean they don't have to be
young exactly. In our first class of four, we had
a lot of people who had done other kinds of
video work, perhaps for other organizations, think tanks or corporations,
had never done a real documentary. So this was their
chance to make their passion project and to learn storytelling,
(23:05):
not just corporate work and not just advocacy work, but
storytelling with real journalism and reporting behind it, which I
think is important. I think it's the right way to
make documentaries. But it's also important if you want to
reach people who are in the middle of the country,
who are undecided, who are maybe not complete partisans of
one side or the other.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I think if you tell straightforward, fact.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Based stories, those people can be both engaged and have
their minds changed.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Well, and people who want to see more about this
can go to Palladium Pictures dot com. You've been one
of the pioneer conservative filmmakers.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
How long have you been doing this?
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Well, my wife doesn't like me to say this, but
I started my company, my first company, Manifold Productions, in
nineteen seventy seven, a long time ago, writs to say
she was a little child.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Both of you were children at the time.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
That lasts for children, It's been a long time.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I will say that I think recently the conservative movement
as a whole has woken up to the need to
tell stories through film and documentary and not just books
and think tanks and white papers. I would like to
return the compliment nude in that I think you and
Callista have done more than your part in this area too,
(24:19):
and you are one of the few who, in addition
to all your other work, also have time to make
documentary films and recognize its importance. But the conservative movement
has been slow to do that, and I think to
its detriment and to the detriment of the country. Country
needs two sides, not just one.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I think what you're doing is an extraordinary, important contribution.
And I hope that this new generation of conservative directors
and producers that you're helping grow are going to play
a major role in getting the country to learn and
to be healthier in better place. And I think that's
really really important.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
I completely agree with I mean, one of the important things.
We need to wake up the whole conservative movement because
the left has an entire ecosystem supporting their filmmakers from
film schools which are all woke progressive institutions. Some of
them advertised that they train people who.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Make advocacy videos.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
So there are four thousand colleges and universities around the
country graduating tens of thousands of want to be filmmakers
progressive filmmakers a year. And from there they go on
to have funding sources from the Ford Foundation, the Carthur Foundation,
and distributors that specialize in social justice films, to film
festivals like sun Dance that are woke, and so there's
(25:39):
an entire structure and the left has built it up
by investing their time, money, and creativity in it for
the last fifty years. We need to catch up and
do exactly what they're doing with our ideas instead of
their ideas. I always say they're to be commended for
fighting for their ideas. That's what you're supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
We need to fight for.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Hours, and it's so the responsibility of people who are
conservative to do that and not blame the left.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I think you're entirely right, and I hope some of
our listeners will take this to heart and both support
rising young conservative filmmakers and in a couple cases, maybe
actually become a filmmaker. And they can do that in
part by communicating with you through Palladium Pictures dot com. Michael,
I want to thank you for joining me and your
(26:27):
new film Get the Jew The Crown Heights Riot Revisited
is a stunning look back at the worst antisemitic ride
in American history, which occurred amazingly in New York City
in nineteen ninety one, and our listeners can watch the
film by going to YouTube dot com slash at Wsjopinion.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Thank you for having me on nute.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Thank you to my guest Michael Pack. You can get
a link to watch his new film Get the Jew
the Crown Heights f I had revisited on our show
page at Newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by Gingrish
three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan
and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the
(27:15):
show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the
team at Gingris three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld,
I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate
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others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners
of Newtsworld consigner from my three freeweekly columns at gingristree
(27:37):
sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.
On this episode of Newsworld, The new documentary Get the
Jew The Crown Heights Riot Revisited sheds light on the
worst anti Semitic riot in American history, which occurred in
New York City in nineteen ninety one. After a car
crash in which a Hasidic Jewish driver accident, a hit
and killed a black child, rioters set upon the local
(00:26):
Jewish neighborhood in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. Jews were attacked in
the streets along with Jewish stores, homes, and cars. One
Hasidic man who was stabbed to death. Mayored David Dinkins
in the New York Police Department allowed the riot to
rage for three full nights, egged on by racial provocateurs,
while many in the media played down or excused the
(00:49):
anti Semitism at the heart of the violence. The film
was part of a new series produced by The Wall
Street Journal's Opinion Docks series and is available on YouTube
dot org. Here to talk about the film, I'm really
pleased to welcome back my guest and good friend, Michael Pack.
He is a documentary filmmaker and the president and CEO
(01:11):
of Palladium Pictures. Michael, welcome and thank you for joining
me on Nuts World.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Thank you for having me on newt Michael.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Can you describe Crown Heights historically for us?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
I think that's a good question because the background of
Crown Heights is important to understand the Crown Heights riots
of nineteen ninety one. So Crown Heights, Brooklyn had historically
been a Jewish neighborhood, and there were different sects and
kinds of Jews that were there, Conservative, Reformed, Orthodox. But
then in the sixties, black people started moving in, and
(01:55):
there was the phenomenon of white flight, not uncommon throughout
New York City, and in fact, black people moved in
and middle class white people moved out, often in this
case to Long Island or the Bronx. However, one group
of Jewish people did not move out, and that was
Khabad Lubavich, which is a kind of Hasidics act that
(02:17):
had an internationally famous rabbi, the Rebbi Menachem Sheerson, and
he had fled the Holocaust, and he was a world
famous religious leader. Heads of Israel, presidents in the United
States consulted and visited him, and he said he had
fled the Holocaust, and he said, we live here we're
(02:38):
not moving out. We can get along with the black
people who've moved in.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
We are staying. So they stayed.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
And meanwhile, a lot of especially Haitian people and people
from the Islands, had moved in, and a lot of
Guyanese people. And there was tension throughout the sixties and seventies,
And that was a period in New York City where
there was violence in general, and there was violence in
Crown Heights. Crown Heights was a poor neighborhood. The Jews
(03:05):
there were poor and the Blacks there were poor, and
there were tension, there was violence, and there was a
feeling among some of the black people in that neighborhood
that maybe the Jews were getting a better shape from
the city. They seemed to be doing better than their
black neighbors. The Jews might attribute it to harder work,
the Blacks might attribute it to favors from the city. Anyway,
(03:25):
tensions were strong, rising into the seventies and eighties, and
then right before the Crown Heights riot, there was in
New York City in general, a wave of black nationalism.
Prior news item of this sort that was covered at
the time concerned Leonard Jeffries, who is Haking Jeffries, the
(03:47):
current Minority leader of the House's uncle, and he had
been the head of African American studies at the City
University of New York, and he had made controversial anti
submitted comments. He called white people ice people and black
people some people implied that they were completely different. One
was good, one was bad. He talked about Jewish people
(04:08):
being involved in the slave trade and being responsible for
this and that ill and this was highly controversial at
the time. It was also the time that Lewis Farakhan
was much in the news with similar comments, so tensions
were high leading into the summer of nineteen ninety one,
which was a very hot summer in New York.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
How much do you think something as simple as the heat,
the lack of air conditioning, and people living in tenements
with no place to go, how much that just the
physical discomfort contribute to what would happen.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
I think it has a lot to do with it.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
You know, people were hot, they were uncomfortable, and they
were out on the streets. I mean, this was somewhat
similar to the George Floyd riots, where people were out
on the street because they had been cooped up in COVID.
So a lot of those things I think exacerbate pre
existing tensions, and that was certainly true for this hot
summer in August of nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
What was the trigger point? I mean, why did this
suddenly explode?
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Well, the Rebbi Menachem Schneerson every month visited the graves
of his recently deceased wife and his predecessor several miles
away in Queen's and then he would go there every month,
and he was accompanied by a police escort because he
was an internationally known and important religious figure.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So he was coming back.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
There was a police escort in front. His car was
number two, and a third car was behind him with
Yosa Flish, one of his assistants, and two others, and
they were.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Going through a light. Some say it was yellow, some
say it was red.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
And the first two cars went through what was green,
and this third car, driven by Yosa Fish either ran
the yellow or the red to follow. The police car
was flashing its lights and sirens, and he may well
have thought he still had the ok to go ahead,
but he crashed into another car and he careened off.
That other car hit some say a pillar, and then
(06:00):
he smashed off that pillar and then pinned two young
Guyanese children who were playing with their bicycles on the street,
and they got pinned under his car. One of them
later died, Gavin Cato, and one of them his cousin,
later lived.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
But there was this crash, and right.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Away, because it was a hot summer and people were
on the street, crowds gathered and people were shouting.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
He did it on purpose.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
The Jewish ambulance that came first left without treating the
black people. The Jews are getting away with something. We've
got to punish the Jews. And in fact, you know,
Charles Price, one of the people there, really whipped up
the crowd and said, you.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Know, let's go get the Jews and mobs the.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Black people then went out through Crown Heights and three
hours later the accident happened at eight. At about eleven
that night, this crowd with Charles Price ran into a
Hasidic student who happened not to be Abade, but a
Hasidic student who was dressed in the black hat and
the black coat that clearly marked him as Jewish. And
(07:02):
they said there's a Jew, let's get them, hence their
title get the Jew and they ganged up on them.
They beat him and one of them had a knife,
Lemerick Nelson, and he stabbed Jackel Rosenbaum multiple times. And
then jackle Rosenbaum was taken to a hospital and died,
but the riots continued. That was the day one of
the riots.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
But let me say this a second, he goes if
I understand it, Grecly Rosenbaum is a Jewish University of
Melbourne student.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Yes, he's from Australia. He was a graduate student doing
his studies on anti Semitism and treatment of Jews, and
he was researching that in the United States. That's right.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
He clearly has nothing to do except he's a random target.
It's an additional tragedy about this whole event. We go ahead.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
That was day one, which ended really in Jack Rosenbaum's death.
But by day two Al Sharpton and other people had
come in from other burrows. Al Sharpton says he was
invited by Gavin Kato's father who had been killed, and
there were then riots and it whipped up a frenzy
and the police seemed to be standing around and doing nothing.
(08:11):
And that went on for days, days until the police chief,
the first black police chief in the first Black Mayor
David Dinkins were themselves attacked and then they said let's
end the riot, and it ended three hours later. So
one of the questions the documentary poses is why the delay,
Why the unwillingness to stop this riot.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Why do you think the police chief and the mayor
took that position.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
We asked the question in the film, But to my mind,
it is because they were afraid of taking on the
left wing of their party, the Black nationalists, the radical wing.
They just felt they could not offend them. You know. Significantly,
the mayor David Dinkins went to the funeral of Gavin
Cato as well he should, but he did not attend
(08:59):
the funeral of the ankle Rosenbaum, and I think he
felt that he couldn't offend this wing of his party
and he let it go, I believe nude. It's also
somewhat parallel to what happened on college campuses recently, where
there was anti Semitic chance and harassment of students and
college presidents felt they couldn't act.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
In your judgment, is the depth of anti semitism that
deep in the system, and we've just been underestimating it.
Because it doesn't spring forth.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
I think it is pretty deep. And you know, I'm Jewish,
and it's always shocking when it kind of rises to
the surface, as it did in the campus as recently,
and as it did in Frown Heights in nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I think it's prett shocking.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
And I hear from my Abad connections in Crown Heights
that their view is it's an ongoing problem. They feel
it's happened continuously since nineteen ninety one. It may be
at a peak now, but in their mind never stops.
It's a very hard phenomenon to explain, but it does
run deep.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
What was the role of the news media for those
two or three days. Was there media condemnation of the
riots or was the media also intimidated.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
We interviewed New York Times reporter Ari Goldman, who covered
the riots for the New York Times, and he says
that he would call into the New York Times in
those days, you would go out on the field, do
the reporting, phone it in to your editor, and the
editor would write it up and put on a headline.
So Ari would say he would be phoning it in
and the headlines would come back, you know, Blacks and
(10:51):
Jews fight in Crown Heights. And after days of this,
Ari said, we're getting it wrong. It's not blacks and
Jews are fighting each other. Blacks are beating up Jews.
That's what's happening. That's the story. But The New York
Times was resistant to covering it that way. And this
is sort of shocking to.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Most of us.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
I mean, the New York Times owned by Jewish people.
You think they would want to cover it in the
straightforward manner that it was required to be covered.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
But that did not happen.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
A lie to that is the failure of a lot
of mainstream Jewish organizations to condemn it. A Foxman, who
is then the head of the ADL, the Anti Defamation League,
apologized for not condemning it at the time.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Was that in part.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Because the core group that was involved were seen as
outside the mainstream of most American Jews or was there
sort of a sense of their different Yeah, I think that's.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Exactly what it was. Newte They're different.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
They dress like they were in eighteenth century Poland, they
speak Yiddish, they don't live on the Upper East Side
or the Upper West Side, they don't go to zabar
As they're culturally different. This is just happening to them
way over there in Brooklyn, not our problem. But as
those very same people found this last year during these
(12:14):
protests on college campuses, that their own sons and daughters
are not immune to harassment along those lines too. And
it's never just those Jews over there, not for the
more liberal Jews, and not for the non Jews either.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
It's interesting also that has hitting Jews in Crown Heights
decided that they would take it and stay and fight
it out. And to the best of my knowledge, they're
still overwhelmingly in Crown Heights.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
On they they are overwhelmingly in Crown Heights. I will
say that the Crown Heights neighborhood, just to update our
earlier discussion of this, has now been pretty gentrified. I mean,
it was a rough neighborhood in the seventies, eighties and
into the nineties. It's not such a rough neighborhood now.
I mean it can be rough at moments, but it's
really much more gentrified. Apartments are much more expensive.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
But that did not stop.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Our film ends with a stabbing in Crown Heights just
this last month, where another young Hasidic man was stabbed
by a black man saying free Palestine and do you
want to die stabbed.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Luckily, this time he was.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Stabbed and suffered only minor wounds. But it's the same
thing again and again in Crown Heights. So it's changed,
but some things are staying the same, and not good things.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
You point out that when finally Mary Dinkins does go
to Crown Heights to tell a crowd not to use violence,
they attacked him.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Indeed, I mean that's the thing. There's now appeasing these people.
I mean, that is the problem that Democrats have with
the left wing of their party. They cannot be appeased.
It's a tricky thing. Even if you politically want to
appease them, it kind of can't be done. Whatever Mery
Dinkins did was not enough for them. Bottles were thrown him,
his black police chief had his car attacked. He had
(14:04):
to call for help. So it was at that point
that they called for the riot to end.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
And did they just ended with the New York Police Department.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Yeah, they called in Ray Kelly, who was then a
deputy police chief later to be police chief, and said,
and the riot and he did the things that you
do to end riots. At the time, he brought in horses,
he blocked off streets with big vans. He didn't just
let people run loose. And within hours, according to Ray Kelly,
who we interviewed, it ended within hours. So it wasn't
(14:34):
that hard to end. I mean, the demonstrations went on,
the tensions went on, but the rioting ended.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
I mean I always thought, for example, with the various
Columbia University, he would take one day of seriousness and
the whole thing would collapse, but the leadership won't be serious.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I think at Colombia they kind of waffled. They sent
in the police, and they apologized for sending in the police.
And you know, you can't have it every which way,
and that's really a problem.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
It's a psychological challenge. They want to be loved, but
they also want to be authorities.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
That's correct, and you can't do both.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
So from Dinkin's standpoint, what was the effect on him
politically after the riot, Well, we.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Believe that it's one of the reasons he lost the
next mayoral election to Rudy Giuliani. As Elliot Kaufman, the
Well Street Journal opinion writer whose work this is based on,
points out you would think that he would lose a
lot of the Jewish vote, but he only lost three
percent of the Jewish vote compared to his previous election.
He lost votes among white ethnics in the outer boroughs
(15:42):
like Staten Island and Queens who just didn't like to
see riots in their city, and that turned it for
Rudy Giuliani, who ran on a law and order campaign.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
So it did not work.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
And I don't actually think appeasing your violent friend ever works.
It looks like it's going to work, it looks like
it can be a balancing act, but it doesn't work well.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
And there are also a lot of good lessons through
that in the Middle East. Indeed, which is why I'm
very much for what net Yahoo's doing, and I think
that it's nice to find it policy based on reality
and not on fantasy. I was only surprised by the
way on your research, I didn't realize how close it
was with everything that had gone wrong, the city is
still so democratic that Rudy barely wins.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
That's a good point.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
I mean, I think one of the problems in American
cities is that so many of them are just one
party cities where the other party has which is usually
the Republican Party, has no chance, and it's very tough
to have a one party anything. You know, there's corruption,
there's just kind of laziness, there's extremes. I think this
(16:50):
was what happened to many of the cities across the
country during the George Floyd protests. They're run by a
democratic elite that is crippled, but you know, is looking
to protecting their extreme than anyone in the middle. It's
an amazing thing in a way that Rudy Giuliotti did
win that election, and in fact he turned the city around.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah. No, it's one of the great success stories of
the late twentieth century. Why did you decide to do
(17:32):
a documentary specifically about the Crown Heights riot.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Well, it's part of this new collaboration that my company,
Plating Pictures has with the Wall Street Journal Opinion section,
and we have collaborated to do a series of documentaries,
maybe three to six a year that will tell stories
that maybe the mainstream media has ignored or misreported, or
simply have failed to notice. These are stories that I
(17:58):
think are important to tell. We want to tell them
in this same format of twenty to thirty minute short documentaries.
This is a format pioneered by the New York Times
op docs. The Atlantic has a series like that, The
New Yorker has a series like that, and they all
come from a progressive left perspective. So where are the
stories that Wolfty Journal opinion readers might think are important,
(18:19):
that have maybe been forgotten like the Crown Heights riot,
but are relevant today. And there are a whole bunch
of those that are left on a table, from stories
about the George Floyd protests or COVID recent past to
nineteen ninety one. And we need to understand our history
if we're not going to repeat it, and in the
Crown Heights case, it looks like we are repeating it.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
So it's good to.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Learn those lessons, and it's important to tell those stories.
And although this is a partnership with the Wolfstet Journal
Opinion section, we aspire to tell these stories in a straightforward,
fact based narrative way, which I think we've done with
the Crown Heights story.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
You make a point that the rise in anti Semitism
is happening in France, It's happening in Britain as well
as the United States. I mean, there's something really dangerous.
I think about the wave we're currently living through. It
has the potential to do current and permanent damage.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I think it really does.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I think it may be comforting to some to think
of it as only anti Semitism, but I think it's
almost always closely allied to fear of the modern world
and closely allied to hatred of America, as it is
in the Middle East, you know, the Little Satan in
the Great Satan Israel. In America, these are tied to
other really dangerous ideas. That it's bad enough anti Semitism
(19:38):
per se, but it doesn't even stop there. And you're right,
it's in worldwide phenomena.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
So when somebody sees this film, do you have a
message you hope they'll leave with.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I hope that they can see current events through this lens,
understand that this sort of pattern has a history. Instead
of man that it not be repeated, demand that our
leader shows some courage, you know, not let this go on.
That's sort of the message. Of course, we also want
people who see it to continue to watch of our
(20:11):
upcoming Wall Street Journal opinion docs.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Well, so I was going to ask you that do
you have any notion yet of what some future topics
might be.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
We do. The very next one is almost finished, and
it's a documentary about the prime ministership of Liz Trust,
who is the shortest lived prime minister in British history
forty four days, and we tell the story of her
time as Prime Minister.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
It's called The Prime Minister Versus.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
The Blob because Liz Trust feels that she was done
in by the British version of the administrative State or
the swamp, which they call the Blob. Actually, I think
a better name for it. So we have her tell
how that worked out, to play it out, and we
have some people who disagree with her, from both her
own party, the Tory Party and the Labor Party making
the opposite case. But it includes a very long interview
(20:59):
with Liz Trust and explains her point of view, and
I think it's an important point of view, and that
this way it's just like Crown Heights, it's got an
American parallel.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
There are people that I know, and.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
I'm sure we both know, who feel that President Trump's
problem with the administrative State had to do with his
unusual personality of his governing style and maybe his lack
of knowledge about government. But Liz trust is like the
opposite of Donald Trump. She's a completely different personality. She's
been in government a long time. If she too is
done in by the administrative state, it shows you that's
(21:32):
a problem with the sort of elites across the West.
So that one's coming up in November.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I find her to be a very interesting person and
I think that probably the Tory Party would have been
better off had she survived.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
I think that is true. Certainly they couldn't be worse off.
The idea that they fixed those problems is not what happened.
And now they have the Labor Party, so that can
happen to us too. We also have coming up up
something I mentioned to you in our last podcast. I
think my son Thomas was on too. We have this
incubator to train young right of center Thomas lakes to say,
(22:10):
non woke filmmakers. We had a class of four this
year and we're accepting new applicants on our website, which
is pladio pictures dot com. But the first four have
finished their films and they're also short films, and they're
also on important and neglected topics, and I hope we
can come back and discuss them when those films are
finished too.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Gladium Pictures as an incubator project, and so somebody who's
listening to us, who knows some young person who'd like
to get into film, they want to go to Pladium
Pictures to look at what you're doing and how to apply.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
That's right, it has an apply now button. We encourage
anyone to apply. I mean they don't have to be
young exactly. In our first class of four, we had
a lot of people who had done other kinds of
video work, perhaps for other organizations, think tanks or corporations,
had never done a real documentary. So this was their
chance to make their passion project and to learn storytelling,
(23:05):
not just corporate work and not just advocacy work, but
storytelling with real journalism and reporting behind it, which I
think is important. I think it's the right way to
make documentaries. But it's also important if you want to
reach people who are in the middle of the country,
who are undecided, who are maybe not complete partisans of
one side or the other.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
I think if you tell straightforward, fact.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Based stories, those people can be both engaged and have
their minds changed.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Well, and people who want to see more about this
can go to Palladium Pictures dot com. You've been one
of the pioneer conservative filmmakers.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
How long have you been doing this?
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Well, my wife doesn't like me to say this, but
I started my company, my first company, Manifold Productions, in
nineteen seventy seven, a long time ago, writs to say
she was a little child.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Both of you were children at the time.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
That lasts for children, It's been a long time.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I will say that I think recently the conservative movement
as a whole has woken up to the need to
tell stories through film and documentary and not just books
and think tanks and white papers. I would like to
return the compliment nude in that I think you and
Callista have done more than your part in this area too,
(24:19):
and you are one of the few who, in addition
to all your other work, also have time to make
documentary films and recognize its importance. But the conservative movement
has been slow to do that, and I think to
its detriment and to the detriment of the country. Country
needs two sides, not just one.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
I think what you're doing is an extraordinary, important contribution.
And I hope that this new generation of conservative directors
and producers that you're helping grow are going to play
a major role in getting the country to learn and
to be healthier in better place. And I think that's
really really important.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
I completely agree with I mean, one of the important things.
We need to wake up the whole conservative movement because
the left has an entire ecosystem supporting their filmmakers from
film schools which are all woke progressive institutions. Some of
them advertised that they train people who.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Make advocacy videos.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
So there are four thousand colleges and universities around the
country graduating tens of thousands of want to be filmmakers
progressive filmmakers a year. And from there they go on
to have funding sources from the Ford Foundation, the Carthur Foundation,
and distributors that specialize in social justice films, to film
festivals like sun Dance that are woke, and so there's
(25:39):
an entire structure and the left has built it up
by investing their time, money, and creativity in it for
the last fifty years. We need to catch up and
do exactly what they're doing with our ideas instead of
their ideas. I always say they're to be commended for
fighting for their ideas. That's what you're supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
We need to fight for.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Hours, and it's so the responsibility of people who are
conservative to do that and not blame the left.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
I think you're entirely right, and I hope some of
our listeners will take this to heart and both support
rising young conservative filmmakers and in a couple cases, maybe
actually become a filmmaker. And they can do that in
part by communicating with you through Palladium Pictures dot com. Michael,
I want to thank you for joining me and your
(26:27):
new film Get the Jew The Crown Heights Riot Revisited
is a stunning look back at the worst antisemitic ride
in American history, which occurred amazingly in New York City
in nineteen ninety one, and our listeners can watch the
film by going to YouTube dot com slash at Wsjopinion.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Thank you for having me on nute.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Thank you to my guest Michael Pack. You can get
a link to watch his new film Get the Jew
the Crown Heights f I had revisited on our show
page at Newtsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by Gingrish
three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan
and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the
(27:15):
show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the
team at Gingris three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld,
I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate
us with five stars and give us a review so
others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners
of Newtsworld consigner from my three freeweekly columns at gingristree
(27:37):
sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.
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Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
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