August 17, 2025 • 33 mins
Newt talks with Kam Ghaffarian, Executive Chairman of Axiom Space about the future of commercial space travel. Kam is a visionary space and energy entrepreneur, and the driving force behind several companies’ advancing human civilization, including Axiom Space, Intuitive Machines, X Energy, and IBX. As the Executive Chairman of Axiom Space, Kam is leading the development of the first private commercial space station to replace the International Space Station. His journey began in Iran, inspired by the moon landing, and led him to the U.S., where he founded Stinger Ghaffarian Technologies, a major NASA contractor. Kam's ventures focus on space commercialization and nuclear power solutions, with X Energy pioneering small modular reactors crucial for AI and energy needs. Axiom Space's missions have united astronauts from diverse countries, fostering international collaboration. Kam's partnerships with companies like Oakley and Prada highlight the commercial potential of space. He advocates for a shift from government-led to commercial-led space activities, emphasizing the urgency of maintaining U.S. space dominance amid global competition.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
On this episode of News World. Cam Gufferium is the
visionary space and energy entrepreneur behind several companies dedicated to
furthering human civilization, including Axiom Space. After co founding Axiom
Space in twenty sixteen to unlock space's potential for renovation
through commercialization, he serves as executive chairman of the board
(00:26):
and a key strategic advisor on the development of the
space economy. Camp started his entrepreneur career in nineteen ninety
four by founding Stinger Gafferian Technology Zinc. SGT became NASA's
second largest engineering services contractor, providing operations for the International
Space Station and astronaut training support. Driven by his omission
(00:49):
to advance the state of humanity and human knowledge, Cam
has created organizations transforming the space and energy sectors. In
addition to co founding Axiom Space, his other companies include
Intuitive Machines, X Energy, and IBX. Cam is also an
active philanthropist and founder of a nonprofit focused on scientific
(01:10):
research and enabling interstellar travel. I should say, by the way,
he's also a neighbor of mine, a very good friend
and a remarkable person. Cam, welcome and thank you for
(01:30):
joining me the News world.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Thank you so much, mister speaker. It's such a pleasure
to be with you.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
You're just great and you're always fun. You have an
amazing number of ideas every week. But let's start at
the beginning, because I think your background is fascinating and
a good example of why America is unique. You were
born in Iran and then what happened?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, I was born at around back. From very early age,
like when I was six years old, I was just
sort of mesmerized with space and stars and explorations and
would often ask myself is it possible that there are
other people living in other stars? And when I was
eleven years old, I saw Neil Armstrong landing on a
(02:13):
surface to Moon from my neighbors black and white television,
and that was just like solidified for me that that's
the journey that I want to be in. And with
just incredible love of America, I almost age eighteen, migrated
to United State. I've been here ever since.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
You went to school here and really developed a remarkable
capacity in engineering and mathematics. But can you sort of
walk us through your journey personally, because you all only
go through a bunch of companies and ended up an
amazing entrepreneur. How did that happen?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I went to actually school in Washington, d C. The
first school that I attended was Catholic University of America,
and I was the first generation that graduated in computer
science engineering degree in the United States. And with love
of space exploration, I worked for a computer company called
Perkin Elmer. I was able to get a job at
(03:11):
Garter Space Flight Center supporting Lockheed, and you know, I
just loved space exploration and that sort of continued. I
guess I had this itch for entrepreneurship. And in nineteen
ninety four, mister speaker, I got a mortgage on my
house for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and I
(03:32):
went all in and literally all in, so if I
was not successful, I would be bankrupt. And started SGKE
Stinger Gafarian Technologies with this other incredible African American pastor
who's also an engineer, Harold Stinger. He literally came to
my basement, we moved some boxes around. Most companies started
(03:52):
in the garage. We started in the basement and upgrade
the garage later. That's how we got that first come.
When you started in nineteen ninety four, and it was
a resounding success. We grew like sixty x in ten years.
In two thousand and nine, you know, I started X Energy,
(04:13):
and you know, it was really because I wanted to
change the world for the better. Initially I was thinking
about actually creating a hydrogen economy and that led me
to a nuclear and that's how X Energy was formed.
In two thousand and nine and twenty thirteen, I co
founded Intuitive Machines, which is today a public fustrated company
(04:36):
and first company in the history a human kind that
successfully landed and surfaced the Moon two years ago. Twenty
sixteen X Energy, Axiom Space, which we're building the first
private commercial space station to replace International Space Station, and
twenty twenty one I co founded Quantum Space. Were heavily
(04:59):
in to defense technology and actually today heavily involved in
the golden technologies.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I mean, you've really had this amazing range. I have
to say, from my perspective watching what you're doing, I
think it may be that the most powerful of your
innovations is going to be the modular nuclear at X Energy,
and the degree to which people don't realize, but artificial
intelligence relies on the huge amount of computing power and
(05:27):
computing power relies on energy. If you don't have the
electricity for the computers, you don't get artificial intelligence. And
if we stayed with our traditional systems, we would never
be able to build enough infrastructure for the volume of
computing power we're going to need. But talk to just
from man or two about the potential impact of modular
nuclear because I think this may be your biggest single
(05:49):
breakthrough in helping people.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Thank you, mister speaker. You're absolutely correct. I strongly believe
that whoever controls the AI will dominate the world. And
if United States wants to be an AI leader, the
AI revolution is not going to happen if you don't
have a power source to empower it, right, And the
(06:15):
wind and solar is not going to work right. So
the only way that this is going to happen is
true nuclear power, and I would add nuclear power more
specifically small modular reactors. That's what ex Energy is all about.
And this is a company. I found it singularly in
two thousand and nine. Today we are world leader in
(06:38):
SMR technologies and in fact, we were really fortunate that
Amazon Aws selected us as the company to provide power
for their AI data centers and currently they are on
our board and leader on our last round. In addition
to that, we're building the first plant for that chemical
(07:00):
in c diri Iff, Texas. And also we are the
recipient of a multi billion dollar private public partnership grant
from Department of Energy which we were very honored to
receive during the first Trump administration. And we're really doing
remarkable things in order to be able to do that.
(07:21):
But from the AI policy perspective, you're absolutely right, we
need the nuclear power in order for AI to be successful.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
And I just think your visionary leadership on that was remarkable.
But you also have a visionary sense at Action Space.
What is the gap that you saw in the space
industry when you founded Axiom.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Prior to founding Action Space, we were basically operating the
International Space Station my previous company twenty four x seven.
We had two contracts totaling two point six billion dollars
where we were managing the operation of ISS all the
time and the engineering support behind it. And so me
(08:09):
and my co founder, who also was the program manager
for International Space Station for NASA, knew that ISS is
going to go away by the end of the decade.
Right by the end of twenty thirty and so we
decided to get on this journey of building the first
private commercial space station that replaces International Space Station. And
(08:34):
we've done just then incredible job since two thousand and sixteen,
almost ten years developing this technology on our own master speaker,
on our own we have raised eight hundred million dollars
developing this hardware. And our first module is going to
be delivered later on this year in our facility in Houston, Texas,
(08:58):
and we're going to go through the integration and launch
this the first module, which we call PPTM, which is Power,
Payload and Thermal module, and we're going to launch this,
I would say by end of twenty twenty six maybe
first quarter twenty twenty eight, and this module is going
to be launched and connect to the current ISS. And
(09:20):
I would add we are the only company, this sole
company that has a contract with NASA to connect with ISS.
No one else has this contract. This contract was awarded
to Ask competitively. So we will be launching that module
and then later on we will be adding our habitation
Module one and two and also a module where we
(09:42):
can do manufacturing in space. And long term vision is
to really have you know, in my view, long term
space city where people live and work and you know,
maybe you have artificial gravity and you know, do all
kinds of many ffacturing and create this new economy. I
(10:03):
call it the Leo economy, a new economy that can
be created to do things in space like pharmaceuticals or
semiconductors or orbital data centers, things that we can do
in microgravity that you cannot do on Earth.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
That's been a vision for a long time. Why do
you think it has taken so long to develop manufacturing
and space because it does seem to have unique characteristics.
I've been writing about it since nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
You're absolutely right, mister speaker, and I think the reason
is the current ISS was developed by the government, and
government is not in the business of commercial right, and
I think you need commercial industries to come in and
be able to get other industries to be engaged. In fact,
one of my investors and partners is the largest pharmaceutical
(10:56):
company in South Korea who's partner with us. However, these technologies,
as we talk about, has been developed and tested within
International Space Station, so it's really ripe for commercializing it
and create this new economy.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
You recently had. I thought it kind of a milestone
you had the AX four mission when you and I
chat about earlier. It was I thought a remarkable achievement
in showing how space can actually bring countries together.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I'm so glad you asked this. This is our fourth mission,
but let me just take very briefly about first, second
and the first mission. We took one private astronaut from Canada,
one from the United States, and one from Israel. It
was incredibly successful. The second mission we took two astronauts
from Saudi Arabia and first female from the Arab world,
(12:06):
which was incredible, and one American astronaut. The turred mission,
it was all with European countries with basically ISA, which
is the European Space Agency, and we had one astronaut
from Turkie which was their nil armstrong moment. It was
first astnaut ever from that country, one from Italy and
(12:28):
one from Sweden. And this fourth mission, which I'm really
proud of, for the first time, we were able to
take an astronaut from India and one from Poland and
one from a country of Hungary. Again for each of
these countries it was their nil Armstrong moment and their
astronaut who successfully came back are really heroes in that country.
(12:53):
In India, Okay, there's one point four billion people in
India who are tuning into this mission. There are three
hundred and fifty million people who are under ages sixteen
who are tuning this mission. So we were able to
bring these countries together and take them to International Space
Station for almost twenty days and successfully bring them back.
(13:15):
And just imagine each of these astronauts were able from
International Space Station to talk to the students in the
respective countries and really inspire them to be able to
grow the space economy and people get in the engineering,
science and math. So it was pretty remarkable.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
It's astonishing to me, and of course you think about
for these countries what a great breakthrough it is. And
now I have somebody they can be proud of who
has been involved. And I think as you developed the
commercial Space Station, you're going to have many opportunities to
integrate other countries and to be involved in very different
(13:54):
than the International Space Station, which is essentially political, but
this will actually be classically a bit business kind of arrangement.
But you also have done an extraordinary number of scientific
studies that have been carried out by Axiom Space, who
pays for all that.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
One of the key things, mister speaker, that our country
has that we haven't really capitalized on is the capital markets, right,
and when NASA announced that we're not building another space station,
we were able to go to capital markets and raise
enormous amount of money. And so when we are able
as a government to provide clear signals right as to
(14:36):
where we're going, that's our huge strength. So we paid
for all of that. Now, remember we charge our astronauts
that we take to space. And now most of our
dealing is with the countries, right, and this is also
an incredible soft power thing, you know, by being able
to bring all these countries together and they go in
(14:56):
the future to our space station. But we're also working
with different organizations, like we've been working with Amazon on
orbital data centers. We're working with different pharmaceuticals on the
pharmaceutical activities, and we're going to be working with different
organization in semiconductors. Were also work with educational institutions, and
(15:19):
we have a very tight collaboration with government as well.
So we're bringing government, transportation, industry and different industries together
to create this incredible ecosystem, new economy that we're creating.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
One of the things I thought was most interesting was
that Axiom has partnered with Oakley to design the visor
system for the extra vehicular mobility, which is the one
that'll run around on the surface of the Moon. Oakley,
of course, just at their fiftieth anniversary celebration and it's
sun lessons. It's a common commercial property. How do you
(15:54):
come to pick oaklim It's a very cool thing.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I think it's not as Oakley mister speaks. We also
have partnered with Product in Italy, which made a lot
of noise, and in fact, we took our spacesuit and
not long ago in Milan and showed you that the galleria,
which made a lot of noise. We partnered with many
(16:17):
other organizations in addition to Oakley and Product. But you know,
this is the beauty of a commercial We're creating a
commercial space station, and I think by having these partners
in like Oakley, so in addition to space station, let
me just say that we're building the spacesuit. We're the
sole provider our spacesuit for our the Mis program, which
(16:40):
is this new set of organizations are countries that have
gotten together to go to the Moon and all of that.
So we're the single provider. And then what the thing
that we noticed is okay for the visors if you will,
for the spacesuit, there would be a natural place to
sort of partner with someone who's into doing glasses and
(17:03):
things like that. And I will tell you that Oakley
is interested even partnering with us on the space station piece.
In addition to this spacesuit. The material that we use
for spacesuit, this is what attracted product and in fact,
they're creating a new line of business that is the
space related And we have so many other organizations that
(17:24):
we have in mind to partner with. And this is
also offsets are cost by creating this partner, just imagine
how much advertisement product gets and Oakley gets and by
the way, an intuitive machine. We partner with Columbia Clothing
and they've created this new generation of clothing that is
(17:45):
space sort of related and they featured our moon landing
on the sphere in Vegas for three days. So I
think bringing these industries together not only is a successful business,
is also fun and so win win not only for
us but also for them.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
The Texas Space Commission recently awarded Actioniom Space five and
a half million dollars to support the orbital data center.
What is an orbital data center?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Okay, so think about a data center on Earth, right,
like Amazon or Google, all of them, Ora Cale, they
have data centers, right. Sam Offman recently was on a
podcast and he said, the future data center is going
to be built in space, right, rather than build on Earth.
(18:33):
So we're sort of the pioneer. We're at the front
runner in creating this, and so we submitted a proposal
to Texas Commission. And so the idea is, create all
these nodes, if you will, that are network together and
create an environment where you have data centers that are
in space. Just think about it. When you have a
(18:55):
data center, what are the two most things that you
need other than the computing power? You need power obviously
to be able to power these AI chips and everything else,
but you also need to remove the heat. So one
of the things that space has is because the cooling
effect of it, you can dissipate the heat. And one
of the other things, mister speaker, you and I've discussed
(19:18):
is using the nuclear power. And so I'm working really
really hard to be able to build nuclear electric proportion.
We're also working on nuclear thermal propulsion, but with nuclear
electric proportion you will really enable incredible power in low orbit,
but also for the surface of the Moon or going
(19:40):
to Mars and all of that. When you're able to
do that, you have this orbital data center in space
where you can have incredible processing power. Think a bit
in the future. Right now, when we have assets in orbit,
were basically sending the data down to the ground, right.
The satellites areware to capture and we do all the
(20:01):
processing of a data on the ground. Right. But think
about in the future where we can all of that
in space, and so when you have compute power space,
you can do all of those things and just send
useful information to the ground. This also has huge implication
for the Golden Dome as we're thinking about it, to
have data centers that are not underground. From the defense perspective.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I've recently written a paper called Trump Time and Trump
Savings making this argument that there's private sector behavior that's
almost inherently more creative, faster, and less expensive than government bureaucracies,
which requires thinking about how you build a team, how
you recruit people. You have so many things going on
(20:59):
under radiove and creative, how do you go about building
your teams and thinking through who you want to recruit.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
That's such a big deal, mister speaker, and you're absolutely right.
One of the things that I say is culture its
strategy for breakfast. And I think if I have one strength,
God's given me this ability to recognize talent. And I've
surrounded myself with people much smarter than myself. In fact,
(21:27):
they make me look good. But finding right people in
the organizations that are talented and have a source of
urgency and getting things done is really really important. I
would share this idea. There's one of the books that
I read long time ago. It's called Good to Great
and Good to Great uses this example of building a
(21:50):
successful company is like a bus going from one place
to another. So you want to find right people you
bring to the bus one number two, I find them
the right seats. That's really important because one person maybe
doing a good thing and one thing I may not
be able to good thing and other thing. And the
third piece, which is not happening within the government, is
(22:14):
to get the wrong people off the bus. So I
think these are the three things right, finding the right
people in the bus, get them the right seat. And
then if you have right talent, you really can create miracles,
and if you have a wrong talent, you go backwards.
So I think to be able to do that is
the key to have successful companies.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
I don't know if you're the first person ever said,
but I just wrote down culture each strategy for Breakfast
because I think it's true and it's one of the
great weaknesses and stuff I do as I probably focus
too much on strategy and not enough on culture. It's
a brilliant concept on your part.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Thank you. And I really believe that the culture I
call it is like the foundation, mister speaker. So if
you're building a house, if you don't have a good foundation,
the house is not going to stay right. The culture
is like a foundation. You've got to have that strong
foundation you build and then you build your company on
top of that. And when we talk about culture, it's
(23:12):
not just culture of integrity and ethics, but culture of
being successful, cultural execution, culture of winning, culture of delivering,
culture of returning one to your investors. Things like that
I think are enormously important.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Back in January this year, in Space News you an
article you said we are shifting from government lead to
commercial lead activities of planet, which I agree with. Describe
what do you mean by that transition and why is
it important?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
In the past From the space perspective, NASA owned the rockets, moonlanders,
spacesuit everything else. And so one of the things that
I think was really clever that happened is by NASA's saying, well,
let's utilize commercial industry to sort as a force multiplier
(24:05):
to be able to do things. And I think that
was the beginning of the SpaceX, right, And that's how
SpaceX as a commercial space was developed. And it was
a breakthrough, right, I mean what SpaceX is done and
now Blue Origin is doing, and many other commercial space
company from the transportation perspective like rocket Lab, Firefly, so
(24:27):
on and so forth. And then NASA later on came
in and says, well, we no longer want to be
the tenant. Were no longer want to be the landlord.
We want to be the tenant. So that's how actually
the contract was awarded to this for the moonlander business,
and we were able newt to develop a moon Lander
(24:50):
in four years. We conceive, designed, build, operated, and landed
successfully on the surface of the Moon four hundred and
eighteen million dollars. So when you go to the commercial world,
you can really reduce the cost and scarcity is the
moderate innovation, and you come up with there is all
(25:11):
this really innovation how to do different things. And I
think that we are shifting from a government led sort
of space industry to more of a commercial space industry.
And I think that's a breath of fresh air and
it's going to grow rapidly and create an economic move But.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
When you think about this, as you migrate from a
bureaucratically government dominant system to a commercial market or in
its system, seems to me there's a real danger that
NASA doesn't quite understand how urgent it is if we're
going to keep people in space to get this commercial
(25:53):
station done before the International Station inevitably disappears. What do
you think of the key steps not just for NASA,
but for the Trump administration and acquiring the clarity that
will guarantee that the new replacement commercial space station is
(26:13):
ready before the end of the life of the International
Space Station.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
I'm so glad you asked that question, because that's a
critical question we need as a country to ask ourselves
this question, are we going to be a dominant space
country and a front runner or not? And we have
incredible competition from China. Let's just talk about space station
for a second. Chinese today have a space station in orbit.
(26:43):
Our space station is going to go away by the
end of the decade, in my opinion, if you want
to keep our dominance in space, and this is bigger
than just a space station. This is including the Moon,
including defense technology, all of that space defense technology. If
we're going to say that we're going to have that,
(27:04):
then we've got to do things differently than we've done before.
So space station is retiring by the end of the decade.
We need to figure out as a country, how do
we have a space station in orbit before the space
station retires and have a continuous human presence and space
operation and be a dominant force in this new economy
(27:26):
that I'm talking about. This economy could be a multi
billion dollars new economy in Lord orbit that I think
is a hidden gem that people don't quite realize. And
so I think we need to figure out by the
end of this decade how do we do that. And
I have tell you the only company who's to spend
eight hundred million dollars developing hardware and ready to make
(27:50):
this happen is my company, Axiom Space, and we're ready
to make this happen. I think we need to have
this sense of urgency from the governor perspective and say,
let's not lose our space dominance to Chinese. Let's figure
out whatever we need to do so that we have
a space station in orbit before ISS retires.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
It seems to me that's this year problem, It's not
a twenty thirty problem.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Absolutely. I am really happy that we have an acting
administery Sean Duffy, that was making good decisions. I'm personally
willing to support the activity away from my companies, is
what's right for our country to push their space economy forward.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah. I had a very good conversation with Secretary definitely
right after he had announced that we would put a
US reactor operationally on the Moon by twenty thirty, and
I was very impressed with his general approach, his understanding.
When you realize that he's running the Department of Transportation,
launching the rebuilding of the entire air traffic control system,
(28:57):
and temporarily in charge of NASA. His rasp of the
Nazi issues, I thought, and his willingness to cut through
the bureaucracy was very very encouraging.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
I wholeheartedly agree. And I'm so glad you talk about
space nuclear, mister speaker, because if we're going to have
a colony on the Moon and we're going to have
a habitat on the surface the Moon, space nuclear and
fission surface power, which Secretary Duffy announced is critical. Look,
(29:27):
if we're going to have people living there, we need oxygen,
we need to power things, and you know, with the
temperatures going to minus two hundred civic degrees fahrenheit in
the moon lunaris, the only way that we're going to
have power to be able to create fuel, create habitat,
to have a presence on the surface the Moon is
(29:49):
with nuclear power. That's sort of having a nuclear power
the surface the Moon that a Securary Duffy announced. But
also let's take this one step further. We can shorten
the extensive going to Mars by two thirds. If you
have nuclear thermal proportion, you have nuclear electric propultion. This
is a game changer. How we can really accelerate to
(30:11):
be able to do things and my dream is eventually
be able to use these technologies to go to other
stars outside of our Solar system.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
That may be next generation, but frankly, if we could
get near Earth operating at its highest tempo with tourism, manufacturing,
scientific research, and then develop a real presence on the Moon,
not just a visit, but much like we do. A
friend of mine pointed out that we have huge impact
in Antarctica because every summer we put three thousand people
(30:43):
down there. So for ourn initial goal was fifty or
one hundred people on the Moon permanently, with rotating in
new people as the others come out, and then you
can be in to think about Mars and beyond that
about asteroid mining. Now you have a full first generation creating.
I like to think of it as creating a space
faring nation. We've been ceafaring for our history, and now
(31:07):
we're going to have being space faring. And it's important
because it seems to me it's important for freedom to
be the lead in space.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Absolutely, I could not agree with you more. And it
is so important is the next frontier is the final frontier,
and we need to have American dominance there. And I
believe that combining space with nuclear is the way to
get there in order for us to have permanent presence,
(31:36):
whether on the surface of the Moon or Mars, and
be able to also travel to other bodies in a
much shorter time that we're doing today.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I think you are one of the great pioneers who
is actually developing all of this. It's very exciting to
me and a real privilege to know you and to
watch your work and to realize that hell endlessly I
think here seven days a week of creativity so pretty remarkable.
I want to thank you for joining me. I want
to let our listeners know they can find out more
(32:05):
about axiom Space by visiting axiomspace dot com, which we
will have on our show page.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Thank you so much. It was such an honor to
be part of your program and for people to realize
that other than your incredible was an incredible politician and
Speaker of the House. You have such a keen intellectual
mind for things like space and nuclear and other things.
It's just such a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Thank you to my guest, Cam Gafarium. You can learn
more about axiom Space on our show page at newtsworld
dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Ganinglish, Sweet sixty and iHeartMedia.
Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson.
The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley.
Special thanks to the team at Ginglish Sweet sixty. If
(32:58):
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all about. Right now, listeners of newts World consigned for
my three free weekly columns at GINGRISHO sixty dot com
slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.
On this episode of News World. Cam Gufferium is the
visionary space and energy entrepreneur behind several companies dedicated to
furthering human civilization, including Axiom Space. After co founding Axiom
Space in twenty sixteen to unlock space's potential for renovation
through commercialization, he serves as executive chairman of the board
(00:26):
and a key strategic advisor on the development of the
space economy. Camp started his entrepreneur career in nineteen ninety
four by founding Stinger Gafferian Technology Zinc. SGT became NASA's
second largest engineering services contractor, providing operations for the International
Space Station and astronaut training support. Driven by his omission
(00:49):
to advance the state of humanity and human knowledge, Cam
has created organizations transforming the space and energy sectors. In
addition to co founding Axiom Space, his other companies include
Intuitive Machines, X Energy, and IBX. Cam is also an
active philanthropist and founder of a nonprofit focused on scientific
(01:10):
research and enabling interstellar travel. I should say, by the way,
he's also a neighbor of mine, a very good friend
and a remarkable person. Cam, welcome and thank you for
(01:30):
joining me the News world.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Thank you so much, mister speaker. It's such a pleasure
to be with you.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
You're just great and you're always fun. You have an
amazing number of ideas every week. But let's start at
the beginning, because I think your background is fascinating and
a good example of why America is unique. You were
born in Iran and then what happened?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, I was born at around back. From very early age,
like when I was six years old, I was just
sort of mesmerized with space and stars and explorations and
would often ask myself is it possible that there are
other people living in other stars? And when I was
eleven years old, I saw Neil Armstrong landing on a
(02:13):
surface to Moon from my neighbors black and white television,
and that was just like solidified for me that that's
the journey that I want to be in. And with
just incredible love of America, I almost age eighteen, migrated
to United State. I've been here ever since.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
You went to school here and really developed a remarkable
capacity in engineering and mathematics. But can you sort of
walk us through your journey personally, because you all only
go through a bunch of companies and ended up an
amazing entrepreneur. How did that happen?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I went to actually school in Washington, d C. The
first school that I attended was Catholic University of America,
and I was the first generation that graduated in computer
science engineering degree in the United States. And with love
of space exploration, I worked for a computer company called
Perkin Elmer. I was able to get a job at
(03:11):
Garter Space Flight Center supporting Lockheed, and you know, I
just loved space exploration and that sort of continued. I
guess I had this itch for entrepreneurship. And in nineteen
ninety four, mister speaker, I got a mortgage on my
house for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and I
(03:32):
went all in and literally all in, so if I
was not successful, I would be bankrupt. And started SGKE
Stinger Gafarian Technologies with this other incredible African American pastor
who's also an engineer, Harold Stinger. He literally came to
my basement, we moved some boxes around. Most companies started
(03:52):
in the garage. We started in the basement and upgrade
the garage later. That's how we got that first come.
When you started in nineteen ninety four, and it was
a resounding success. We grew like sixty x in ten years.
In two thousand and nine, you know, I started X Energy,
(04:13):
and you know, it was really because I wanted to
change the world for the better. Initially I was thinking
about actually creating a hydrogen economy and that led me
to a nuclear and that's how X Energy was formed.
In two thousand and nine and twenty thirteen, I co
founded Intuitive Machines, which is today a public fustrated company
(04:36):
and first company in the history a human kind that
successfully landed and surfaced the Moon two years ago. Twenty
sixteen X Energy, Axiom Space, which we're building the first
private commercial space station to replace International Space Station, and
twenty twenty one I co founded Quantum Space. Were heavily
(04:59):
in to defense technology and actually today heavily involved in
the golden technologies.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I mean, you've really had this amazing range. I have
to say, from my perspective watching what you're doing, I
think it may be that the most powerful of your
innovations is going to be the modular nuclear at X Energy,
and the degree to which people don't realize, but artificial
intelligence relies on the huge amount of computing power and
(05:27):
computing power relies on energy. If you don't have the
electricity for the computers, you don't get artificial intelligence. And
if we stayed with our traditional systems, we would never
be able to build enough infrastructure for the volume of
computing power we're going to need. But talk to just
from man or two about the potential impact of modular
nuclear because I think this may be your biggest single
(05:49):
breakthrough in helping people.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Thank you, mister speaker. You're absolutely correct. I strongly believe
that whoever controls the AI will dominate the world. And
if United States wants to be an AI leader, the
AI revolution is not going to happen if you don't
have a power source to empower it, right, And the
(06:15):
wind and solar is not going to work right. So
the only way that this is going to happen is
true nuclear power, and I would add nuclear power more
specifically small modular reactors. That's what ex Energy is all about.
And this is a company. I found it singularly in
two thousand and nine. Today we are world leader in
(06:38):
SMR technologies and in fact, we were really fortunate that
Amazon Aws selected us as the company to provide power
for their AI data centers and currently they are on
our board and leader on our last round. In addition
to that, we're building the first plant for that chemical
(07:00):
in c diri Iff, Texas. And also we are the
recipient of a multi billion dollar private public partnership grant
from Department of Energy which we were very honored to
receive during the first Trump administration. And we're really doing
remarkable things in order to be able to do that.
(07:21):
But from the AI policy perspective, you're absolutely right, we
need the nuclear power in order for AI to be successful.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
And I just think your visionary leadership on that was remarkable.
But you also have a visionary sense at Action Space.
What is the gap that you saw in the space
industry when you founded Axiom.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Prior to founding Action Space, we were basically operating the
International Space Station my previous company twenty four x seven.
We had two contracts totaling two point six billion dollars
where we were managing the operation of ISS all the
time and the engineering support behind it. And so me
(08:09):
and my co founder, who also was the program manager
for International Space Station for NASA, knew that ISS is
going to go away by the end of the decade.
Right by the end of twenty thirty and so we
decided to get on this journey of building the first
private commercial space station that replaces International Space Station. And
(08:34):
we've done just then incredible job since two thousand and sixteen,
almost ten years developing this technology on our own master speaker,
on our own we have raised eight hundred million dollars
developing this hardware. And our first module is going to
be delivered later on this year in our facility in Houston, Texas,
(08:58):
and we're going to go through the integration and launch
this the first module, which we call PPTM, which is Power,
Payload and Thermal module, and we're going to launch this,
I would say by end of twenty twenty six maybe
first quarter twenty twenty eight, and this module is going
to be launched and connect to the current ISS. And
(09:20):
I would add we are the only company, this sole
company that has a contract with NASA to connect with ISS.
No one else has this contract. This contract was awarded
to Ask competitively. So we will be launching that module
and then later on we will be adding our habitation
Module one and two and also a module where we
(09:42):
can do manufacturing in space. And long term vision is
to really have you know, in my view, long term
space city where people live and work and you know,
maybe you have artificial gravity and you know, do all
kinds of many ffacturing and create this new economy. I
(10:03):
call it the Leo economy, a new economy that can
be created to do things in space like pharmaceuticals or
semiconductors or orbital data centers, things that we can do
in microgravity that you cannot do on Earth.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
That's been a vision for a long time. Why do
you think it has taken so long to develop manufacturing
and space because it does seem to have unique characteristics.
I've been writing about it since nineteen eighty four.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
You're absolutely right, mister speaker, and I think the reason
is the current ISS was developed by the government, and
government is not in the business of commercial right, and
I think you need commercial industries to come in and
be able to get other industries to be engaged. In fact,
one of my investors and partners is the largest pharmaceutical
(10:56):
company in South Korea who's partner with us. However, these technologies,
as we talk about, has been developed and tested within
International Space Station, so it's really ripe for commercializing it
and create this new economy.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
You recently had. I thought it kind of a milestone
you had the AX four mission when you and I
chat about earlier. It was I thought a remarkable achievement
in showing how space can actually bring countries together.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I'm so glad you asked this. This is our fourth mission,
but let me just take very briefly about first, second
and the first mission. We took one private astronaut from Canada,
one from the United States, and one from Israel. It
was incredibly successful. The second mission we took two astronauts
from Saudi Arabia and first female from the Arab world,
(12:06):
which was incredible, and one American astronaut. The turred mission,
it was all with European countries with basically ISA, which
is the European Space Agency, and we had one astronaut
from Turkie which was their nil armstrong moment. It was
first astnaut ever from that country, one from Italy and
(12:28):
one from Sweden. And this fourth mission, which I'm really
proud of, for the first time, we were able to
take an astronaut from India and one from Poland and
one from a country of Hungary. Again for each of
these countries it was their nil Armstrong moment and their
astronaut who successfully came back are really heroes in that country.
(12:53):
In India, Okay, there's one point four billion people in
India who are tuning into this mission. There are three
hundred and fifty million people who are under ages sixteen
who are tuning this mission. So we were able to
bring these countries together and take them to International Space
Station for almost twenty days and successfully bring them back.
(13:15):
And just imagine each of these astronauts were able from
International Space Station to talk to the students in the
respective countries and really inspire them to be able to
grow the space economy and people get in the engineering,
science and math. So it was pretty remarkable.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
It's astonishing to me, and of course you think about
for these countries what a great breakthrough it is. And
now I have somebody they can be proud of who
has been involved. And I think as you developed the
commercial Space Station, you're going to have many opportunities to
integrate other countries and to be involved in very different
(13:54):
than the International Space Station, which is essentially political, but
this will actually be classically a bit business kind of arrangement.
But you also have done an extraordinary number of scientific
studies that have been carried out by Axiom Space, who
pays for all that.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
One of the key things, mister speaker, that our country
has that we haven't really capitalized on is the capital markets, right,
and when NASA announced that we're not building another space station,
we were able to go to capital markets and raise
enormous amount of money. And so when we are able
as a government to provide clear signals right as to
(14:36):
where we're going, that's our huge strength. So we paid
for all of that. Now, remember we charge our astronauts
that we take to space. And now most of our
dealing is with the countries, right, and this is also
an incredible soft power thing, you know, by being able
to bring all these countries together and they go in
(14:56):
the future to our space station. But we're also working
with different organizations, like we've been working with Amazon on
orbital data centers. We're working with different pharmaceuticals on the
pharmaceutical activities, and we're going to be working with different
organization in semiconductors. Were also work with educational institutions, and
(15:19):
we have a very tight collaboration with government as well.
So we're bringing government, transportation, industry and different industries together
to create this incredible ecosystem, new economy that we're creating.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
One of the things I thought was most interesting was
that Axiom has partnered with Oakley to design the visor
system for the extra vehicular mobility, which is the one
that'll run around on the surface of the Moon. Oakley,
of course, just at their fiftieth anniversary celebration and it's
sun lessons. It's a common commercial property. How do you
(15:54):
come to pick oaklim It's a very cool thing.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I think it's not as Oakley mister speaks. We also
have partnered with Product in Italy, which made a lot
of noise, and in fact, we took our spacesuit and
not long ago in Milan and showed you that the galleria,
which made a lot of noise. We partnered with many
(16:17):
other organizations in addition to Oakley and Product. But you know,
this is the beauty of a commercial We're creating a
commercial space station, and I think by having these partners
in like Oakley, so in addition to space station, let
me just say that we're building the spacesuit. We're the
sole provider our spacesuit for our the Mis program, which
(16:40):
is this new set of organizations are countries that have
gotten together to go to the Moon and all of that.
So we're the single provider. And then what the thing
that we noticed is okay for the visors if you will,
for the spacesuit, there would be a natural place to
sort of partner with someone who's into doing glasses and
(17:03):
things like that. And I will tell you that Oakley
is interested even partnering with us on the space station piece.
In addition to this spacesuit. The material that we use
for spacesuit, this is what attracted product and in fact,
they're creating a new line of business that is the
space related And we have so many other organizations that
(17:24):
we have in mind to partner with. And this is
also offsets are cost by creating this partner, just imagine
how much advertisement product gets and Oakley gets and by
the way, an intuitive machine. We partner with Columbia Clothing
and they've created this new generation of clothing that is
(17:45):
space sort of related and they featured our moon landing
on the sphere in Vegas for three days. So I
think bringing these industries together not only is a successful business,
is also fun and so win win not only for
us but also for them.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
The Texas Space Commission recently awarded Actioniom Space five and
a half million dollars to support the orbital data center.
What is an orbital data center?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Okay, so think about a data center on Earth, right,
like Amazon or Google, all of them, Ora Cale, they
have data centers, right. Sam Offman recently was on a
podcast and he said, the future data center is going
to be built in space, right, rather than build on Earth.
(18:33):
So we're sort of the pioneer. We're at the front
runner in creating this, and so we submitted a proposal
to Texas Commission. And so the idea is, create all
these nodes, if you will, that are network together and
create an environment where you have data centers that are
in space. Just think about it. When you have a
(18:55):
data center, what are the two most things that you
need other than the computing power? You need power obviously
to be able to power these AI chips and everything else,
but you also need to remove the heat. So one
of the things that space has is because the cooling
effect of it, you can dissipate the heat. And one
of the other things, mister speaker, you and I've discussed
(19:18):
is using the nuclear power. And so I'm working really
really hard to be able to build nuclear electric proportion.
We're also working on nuclear thermal propulsion, but with nuclear
electric proportion you will really enable incredible power in low orbit,
but also for the surface of the Moon or going
(19:40):
to Mars and all of that. When you're able to
do that, you have this orbital data center in space
where you can have incredible processing power. Think a bit
in the future. Right now, when we have assets in orbit,
were basically sending the data down to the ground, right.
The satellites areware to capture and we do all the
(20:01):
processing of a data on the ground. Right. But think
about in the future where we can all of that
in space, and so when you have compute power space,
you can do all of those things and just send
useful information to the ground. This also has huge implication
for the Golden Dome as we're thinking about it, to
have data centers that are not underground. From the defense perspective.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I've recently written a paper called Trump Time and Trump
Savings making this argument that there's private sector behavior that's
almost inherently more creative, faster, and less expensive than government bureaucracies,
which requires thinking about how you build a team, how
you recruit people. You have so many things going on
(20:59):
under radiove and creative, how do you go about building
your teams and thinking through who you want to recruit.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
That's such a big deal, mister speaker, and you're absolutely right.
One of the things that I say is culture its
strategy for breakfast. And I think if I have one strength,
God's given me this ability to recognize talent. And I've
surrounded myself with people much smarter than myself. In fact,
(21:27):
they make me look good. But finding right people in
the organizations that are talented and have a source of
urgency and getting things done is really really important. I
would share this idea. There's one of the books that
I read long time ago. It's called Good to Great
and Good to Great uses this example of building a
(21:50):
successful company is like a bus going from one place
to another. So you want to find right people you
bring to the bus one number two, I find them
the right seats. That's really important because one person maybe
doing a good thing and one thing I may not
be able to good thing and other thing. And the
third piece, which is not happening within the government, is
(22:14):
to get the wrong people off the bus. So I
think these are the three things right, finding the right
people in the bus, get them the right seat. And
then if you have right talent, you really can create miracles,
and if you have a wrong talent, you go backwards.
So I think to be able to do that is
the key to have successful companies.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
I don't know if you're the first person ever said,
but I just wrote down culture each strategy for Breakfast
because I think it's true and it's one of the
great weaknesses and stuff I do as I probably focus
too much on strategy and not enough on culture. It's
a brilliant concept on your part.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Thank you. And I really believe that the culture I
call it is like the foundation, mister speaker. So if
you're building a house, if you don't have a good foundation,
the house is not going to stay right. The culture
is like a foundation. You've got to have that strong
foundation you build and then you build your company on
top of that. And when we talk about culture, it's
(23:12):
not just culture of integrity and ethics, but culture of
being successful, cultural execution, culture of winning, culture of delivering,
culture of returning one to your investors. Things like that
I think are enormously important.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Back in January this year, in Space News you an
article you said we are shifting from government lead to
commercial lead activities of planet, which I agree with. Describe
what do you mean by that transition and why is
it important?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
In the past From the space perspective, NASA owned the rockets, moonlanders,
spacesuit everything else. And so one of the things that
I think was really clever that happened is by NASA's saying, well,
let's utilize commercial industry to sort as a force multiplier
(24:05):
to be able to do things. And I think that
was the beginning of the SpaceX, right, And that's how
SpaceX as a commercial space was developed. And it was
a breakthrough, right, I mean what SpaceX is done and
now Blue Origin is doing, and many other commercial space
company from the transportation perspective like rocket Lab, Firefly, so
(24:27):
on and so forth. And then NASA later on came
in and says, well, we no longer want to be
the tenant. Were no longer want to be the landlord.
We want to be the tenant. So that's how actually
the contract was awarded to this for the moonlander business,
and we were able newt to develop a moon Lander
(24:50):
in four years. We conceive, designed, build, operated, and landed
successfully on the surface of the Moon four hundred and
eighteen million dollars. So when you go to the commercial world,
you can really reduce the cost and scarcity is the
moderate innovation, and you come up with there is all
(25:11):
this really innovation how to do different things. And I
think that we are shifting from a government led sort
of space industry to more of a commercial space industry.
And I think that's a breath of fresh air and
it's going to grow rapidly and create an economic move But.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
When you think about this, as you migrate from a
bureaucratically government dominant system to a commercial market or in
its system, seems to me there's a real danger that
NASA doesn't quite understand how urgent it is if we're
going to keep people in space to get this commercial
(25:53):
station done before the International Station inevitably disappears. What do
you think of the key steps not just for NASA,
but for the Trump administration and acquiring the clarity that
will guarantee that the new replacement commercial space station is
(26:13):
ready before the end of the life of the International
Space Station.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
I'm so glad you asked that question, because that's a
critical question we need as a country to ask ourselves
this question, are we going to be a dominant space
country and a front runner or not? And we have
incredible competition from China. Let's just talk about space station
for a second. Chinese today have a space station in orbit.
(26:43):
Our space station is going to go away by the
end of the decade, in my opinion, if you want
to keep our dominance in space, and this is bigger
than just a space station. This is including the Moon,
including defense technology, all of that space defense technology. If
we're going to say that we're going to have that,
(27:04):
then we've got to do things differently than we've done before.
So space station is retiring by the end of the decade.
We need to figure out as a country, how do
we have a space station in orbit before the space
station retires and have a continuous human presence and space
operation and be a dominant force in this new economy
(27:26):
that I'm talking about. This economy could be a multi
billion dollars new economy in Lord orbit that I think
is a hidden gem that people don't quite realize. And
so I think we need to figure out by the
end of this decade how do we do that. And
I have tell you the only company who's to spend
eight hundred million dollars developing hardware and ready to make
(27:50):
this happen is my company, Axiom Space, and we're ready
to make this happen. I think we need to have
this sense of urgency from the governor perspective and say,
let's not lose our space dominance to Chinese. Let's figure
out whatever we need to do so that we have
a space station in orbit before ISS retires.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
It seems to me that's this year problem, It's not
a twenty thirty problem.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Absolutely. I am really happy that we have an acting
administery Sean Duffy, that was making good decisions. I'm personally
willing to support the activity away from my companies, is
what's right for our country to push their space economy forward.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah. I had a very good conversation with Secretary definitely
right after he had announced that we would put a
US reactor operationally on the Moon by twenty thirty, and
I was very impressed with his general approach, his understanding.
When you realize that he's running the Department of Transportation,
launching the rebuilding of the entire air traffic control system,
(28:57):
and temporarily in charge of NASA. His rasp of the
Nazi issues, I thought, and his willingness to cut through
the bureaucracy was very very encouraging.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
I wholeheartedly agree. And I'm so glad you talk about
space nuclear, mister speaker, because if we're going to have
a colony on the Moon and we're going to have
a habitat on the surface the Moon, space nuclear and
fission surface power, which Secretary Duffy announced is critical. Look,
(29:27):
if we're going to have people living there, we need oxygen,
we need to power things, and you know, with the
temperatures going to minus two hundred civic degrees fahrenheit in
the moon lunaris, the only way that we're going to
have power to be able to create fuel, create habitat,
to have a presence on the surface the Moon is
(29:49):
with nuclear power. That's sort of having a nuclear power
the surface the Moon that a Securary Duffy announced. But
also let's take this one step further. We can shorten
the extensive going to Mars by two thirds. If you
have nuclear thermal proportion, you have nuclear electric propultion. This
is a game changer. How we can really accelerate to
(30:11):
be able to do things and my dream is eventually
be able to use these technologies to go to other
stars outside of our Solar system.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
That may be next generation, but frankly, if we could
get near Earth operating at its highest tempo with tourism, manufacturing,
scientific research, and then develop a real presence on the Moon,
not just a visit, but much like we do. A
friend of mine pointed out that we have huge impact
in Antarctica because every summer we put three thousand people
(30:43):
down there. So for ourn initial goal was fifty or
one hundred people on the Moon permanently, with rotating in
new people as the others come out, and then you
can be in to think about Mars and beyond that
about asteroid mining. Now you have a full first generation creating.
I like to think of it as creating a space
faring nation. We've been ceafaring for our history, and now
(31:07):
we're going to have being space faring. And it's important
because it seems to me it's important for freedom to
be the lead in space.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Absolutely, I could not agree with you more. And it
is so important is the next frontier is the final frontier,
and we need to have American dominance there. And I
believe that combining space with nuclear is the way to
get there in order for us to have permanent presence,
(31:36):
whether on the surface of the Moon or Mars, and
be able to also travel to other bodies in a
much shorter time that we're doing today.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
I think you are one of the great pioneers who
is actually developing all of this. It's very exciting to
me and a real privilege to know you and to
watch your work and to realize that hell endlessly I
think here seven days a week of creativity so pretty remarkable.
I want to thank you for joining me. I want
to let our listeners know they can find out more
(32:05):
about axiom Space by visiting axiomspace dot com, which we
will have on our show page.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Thank you so much. It was such an honor to
be part of your program and for people to realize
that other than your incredible was an incredible politician and
Speaker of the House. You have such a keen intellectual
mind for things like space and nuclear and other things.
It's just such a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Thank you to my guest, Cam Gafarium. You can learn
more about axiom Space on our show page at newtsworld
dot com. Newtsworld is produced by Ganinglish, Sweet sixty and iHeartMedia.
Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson.
The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley.
Special thanks to the team at Ginglish Sweet sixty. If
(32:58):
you've been enjoying newts World, I hope you'll go to
Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and
give us a review so others can learn what it's
all about. Right now, listeners of newts World consigned for
my three free weekly columns at GINGRISHO sixty dot com
slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.
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Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!