January 11, 2024 • 32 mins
On a recent episode of Brooke Shields’ podcast Now What?, Katie and Brooke took a walk down memory lane and came back with some thoughtful insights to kick off 2024.
Brooke and Katie share a long history with the limelight, and they reflect in this intimate conversation on the trials and tribulations of going through life’s ups and downs in the public eye. That’s come with its challenges, but also the privilege of a long relationship with their audiences. Both blazed trails and opened doors in their respective industries. But some of the most enduring work has been with causes close to their hearts.
We all have so much to give to the world; allow this conversation to inspire you this January to find your passion, and share it.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question.
Brookshields is an American icon. I don't know about you,
but I remember her face being on the box of
Ivory Snow because she was such a pretty baby. She
later starred, of course, in Pretty Baby, and then froliced
(00:26):
in the Blue Lagoon. When I was in my twenties,
I learned that nothing came between her and her Calvin's.
I have been a fan of hers for a very
long time. I think she's so smart and funny and
miraculously survived enormous fame from a very early age. In fact,
there's a whole documentary about her life called Pretty Baby
(00:47):
Now on Hulu. When Brook invited me to be on
her podcast, now What, I thought, why not? Although I'm
a bit older than she is, we're both interested in
making sure we're living and loving life as more and
more candles appear on our birthday cakes. We ended up
having a great conversation, so I thought this might be
(01:08):
a really nice way to kick off twenty twenty four.
So I hope you all enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Well.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Thank you so much for doing this.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Oh my god, of course, I'm thrilled to talk to
you because you know, I'm such a big fan, and
I think I'm glad that people are kind of, you know,
getting to know you and your personality because you're so funny.
And I don't think people I think, like when obviously
suddenly Susan and you've had other roles, but I don't
think everyone appreciates your sense of humor or the fact
(01:41):
that you have such a good sense of humor.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Well, thank you for that. I think, you know, I
think it's anyway, it's odd. I think it's because if
you've been sort of positioned a certain way for a
good portion of your life, that is just what people
imprint on and you know you can't I guess you
can't be labeled pretty and funny, although I mean Lucio
Ball was like a beauty queen when she started.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I don't know why people have to put people in
boxes and don't appreciate that, As Walt Whitman said, we
contain multitudes, right, right.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I mean, I think it's easier for people because also
if you really, if you really take in all that
we're all capable of.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
It's a lot of pressure for people.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
And yeah, I'm really kind of I have to say
I was a bit intimidating, not a bit a lot
intimidated when I really heard, only because not as a friend,
because as a friend and like a girlfriend, I know
I can call you and we can be girls, and
we've talked about a multitude of private things together. But
it just, you know, you set the tone, and you're
(02:48):
the front runner for so many women. And the fact
that I got intimidated by the fact that I thought
you were going to be that I knew you were
going to be on the show, it struck me. I thought,
I wonder if she ever gets intimidated by interviews that
she has to give. Has there been anybody that's been
intimidating to you?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I think when I have to tackle topics that I
don't know a great deal about that I feel like
the learning curve is really steep. You know, if it's
somebody on a specific aspect of foreign policy that I
might not be uber knowledgeable about, or a medical thing
that I don't know a lot about. Sometimes I do
(03:31):
get intimidated, but I think at this point you just
let your natural curiosity take over. You have a conversation,
and I think the goal is to really make things
accessible and understandable to people. So I remember Tom Friedman
said to explain things simply, you have to understand them deeply.
(03:53):
So I try to strike that balance of understanding something
and then synthesizing it and distill.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
That's a that's a tall order, but the research involved,
I think is daunting, and I'm sure you know, to
make it accessible for other people is really.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Is really the gift of being a journalist.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
You wanted to be a journalist from the time you
were a little kid. I mean, you're the You're the
youngest of four, correct, you grew up in Virginia and
you said you wanted to be a journalist from a
young age. What how did you know that that's what
you wanted. What was it about journalism that intrigued you.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I think I wanted to do something that had to
do with language and writing, and I think it was
the process of elimination. Honestly, I wasn't very strong in
math and science. I hate to say that because that's
such a stereotypical thing, but I really gravitated towards words
and language and writing and more creative pursuit. So I
(05:00):
knew I wanted to do something that involved some form
of communication, whether it was writing or radio or talking.
And I think because my dad was a print journalist
early in his career, and he saw that I wrote well,
and I wrote quickly because I was such a procrastinator
(05:21):
as a kid, I'd wait till the last minute to
do my homework, but I was able to write things
under pressure. And I think he thought, wow, journalism might
be a really great career for you. I mean, he
didn't say that, but we sort of went in that direction.
And I got internships when I was in college, and
I worked at three different radio stations, and I wrote
(05:42):
for my school newspaper and at Uva, I wrote for
the Cavalier Daily.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
So I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And you know, I think when you are lucky enough
to find a job you'd love, that is such a gift.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Do you remember the first time that you fell in
love with the idea of news, like the news moment
that made you just fall in love with that medium.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I don't remember if there was one particular moment. I
just loved every aspect of jumping into a local news van,
not knowing what you were going to find when you
stopped to cover a story, having to jump out get
your bearings, figure out what was going on, find people
(06:29):
to talk to, start painting a picture of the story
in your mind, listening to the sound bites on your
little mini tape recorder on the way home, writing the script,
figuring out what you're maybe if you're going live from
the location, what your you know your live intro is
going to be, what your outro is going to be,
(06:49):
and doing it? Thank you much pressure. Oh yeah, it's
so fun. It's such an adrenaline rush and it's just excite.
And then you've got this thing that you've produced and
it's done and it's over and you can go home
(07:09):
and leave it behind.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
It's awesome.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And also just the thinking on your feet and that
being able to adapt. I mean, it's our version as
an actor of improv. You know, you just it's yes,
and you know, you never shut anything down. It's always
what's the next thing. But it's interesting though I don't
think you know, my daughter, I always things happen and
(07:34):
things don't happen for them, and I try to tell
them all the time that you know, rejection is just
part of growth, and especially in this medium. What you're
what you I mean there must have been so much rejection.
And part of what I wanted to do with this
show is to normalize rejection, you know, to show people
(07:55):
that you can recover from it, that it happens to
all of us, and it's how you're gone and how
you continue that really reveals who you are.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
That's so true. That's so true.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
And I mean from the get go, I had people
telling me, you know, oh, you're never going to make
it in the business. The president of CNN when I
did a really bad report, like I was too young
and really bad, and he called the assignment desk at
CNN in Washington said he never wanted to see me
(08:28):
on the air again. Talk about like deflating. And you know,
I had a really challenging time when I went to CBS,
both internally with the politics there and externally with people
I think wanting to tear me down and not picking
up what I was putting down in terms of trying
(08:49):
to retool an evening news broadcast. And it's hard, and
you're right, everybody deals with rejection or disappointment or hopes
at some point in their lives and it's no fun,
but it's just part of life.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
How did you move on from it, though, what do
you do?
Speaker 4 (09:07):
What was I mean?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I think I had different reactions that differed two different disappointments,
Like when the president of CNN said he never wanted
to see me on the air again. I was just
like devastated. But I also thought, maybe he's right. Maybe
I need more experience. Maybe I'm not ready, and I
just need to do it more. And that's when I
(09:29):
moved to Atlanta and became a producer and started doing
on air stuff little by little and found a mentor.
That's when I went to Miami and became a local
news and just churned out story after story. And you know,
I agree with Malcolm Gladwell, it takes about ten thousand
hours to get good at anything. And I just thought,
you know, I'm just I need more practice, I need
(09:49):
more experience. So I took it personally, and yet I
didn't take it personally, and I tried to figure out, well,
how could I change the circumstances I found myself in.
When we come back, Brooke and I debunked the morning
(10:10):
show stigma and discuss one of the central tenets of
journalism objectivity. That's right after this. If you want to
get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news
and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture.
Sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Upcall by going
(10:32):
to Katiecouric dot com.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
You were interviewed by people after you left CBS and
you said you didn't think that people really internally, ever
really accepted you. And you said, I thought we were
much further along when it came to sexism. What prompted
that observation.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Well, I think if you had sort of been in
my shoes during those five years. And I think a
lot has changed. I think that sexism is still one
of the most acceptable isms, less so than it used
to be. But I think that I got criticized for
what I wore my first night on the evening news.
(11:18):
I got criticized for the way I held my hands,
these really dopey things that a mail anchor would just
never be subjected to. I mean, let's face it, it's
more interesting, I think, to look at women on television
because there's more variety. You know, men just look generally
a certain way, where a certain suit and a tie,
(11:40):
and I think that not everyone. And by the way,
I had a lot of friends within CBS, but a
lot of people I think sort of didn't like outsiders.
It's a pretty insular place. People go there and they
kind of spend their entire careers there. So I had
the out status, I had the first woman's status. I
(12:03):
had the morning show albatross around my neck, that somehow
I lacked rabatas, which I always say is Latin for testicles,
and you know, and that and that somehow I wasn't
enough of a you know, a serious journalist to handle
the CBS evening news, which was just honestly boloney. So
(12:26):
I think there were a lot of and not just
I think there were a lot of biases that honestly
infected or affected the way people saw me in that role.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
What just explained to me what the morning show stigma?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Oh well, I think that people, you know, even though
Tom Brokaw did the Today Show, for example, and even
John Chancellor did the Today Show, I think there is
a feeling that the morning shows are very fluffy and
that they don't deal with serious news, and they're not.
(13:06):
They're not done or anchored by serious people. I think
that's an unfair characterization because I did so many serious
interviews during my fifteen years at the Today Show, and
I did many dateline specials. I interviewed Supreme Court justices
and presidents and world leaders. But I think that it
(13:26):
just has this kind of unfair sort of impromoder as
kind of a you know, a light fluffy show.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
It's entertainment, not news.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, But I was really really proud of working on
The Today Show and really proud of a lot of
the work we did in the stories and the serious
stories I covered, from Oklahoma City bombing to nine to eleven,
to presidential elections to all kinds of really important stories.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
I mean, you've covered so much, and I'm curious about.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
How you cover some of the more divisive issues without
inserting your personal opinion.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
I honestly try to understand what the person is saying,
and I try to learn from that and ask questions
that I think other people would ask. I do try to,
you know, have a vulcan mind meld with people who
might be watching, and I try to be objective, but
you know, I have at this point in my life,
(14:26):
I'm sixty six years old. There are certain things that
I really believe in it, and it is hard to sometimes,
like interview somebody who is against abortion. You know, I'm
for reproductive rights. I am for stricter gun laws. Have
I think, at this point in my career, been able
(14:47):
to say there's some things that I really deeply believe in,
and so I think I do have biases when it
comes to those topics. But in other instances is I
just try to listen and challenge when necessary and in
a respectful way, you know, have a conversation with people.
(15:11):
But you know, as I think, there's no such thing
as true objectivity. You know, unless you're doing the very
strict to what when we're why, if you're trying to
put any context or any kind of explanation behind an event,
it's inevitable that your perspective is going to be influenced
(15:33):
by your point of view in some way.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
And do you feel like you are now there's areas
of your personality that you can more freely and unapologetically
share now that you might not have in your early days.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
And news, yeah, they were like, you know, there were
third rails, like you couldn't talk about gun violence. And
I did a whole documentary about why gun violence was
out of control in this country. You know, I couldn't
have done that anchoring the Today Show, I could not
have had a strong opinion.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
With your media company.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Now you can, yeah, put out the messaging that you
believe in and you know, well, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Brooke, I was able to shape the broadcast slightly differently
when I was at CBS. I could focus more on
women's stories. You know, we did something on dating violence,
we did something on you know, sexual assault in the military.
I did, you know, stories that I think a male
anchor would not have necessarily thought about. And so I
(16:35):
was able to make my mark in some ways when
it came to story selection. So I feel like I
wasn't totally you know, hamstrung by being in a more
traditional media environment.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Well, I'm relieved and glad to hear that. I think
you're a very strong business woman in so far as
the way you handled this fascination with your personal life
in a way that made it not get stolen from you.
You know. I mean, I've felt that my whole life.
(17:13):
But I'm right, I'm not in new I'm not in news,
you know, but that that that piece is usually not
something that gets it's usually that that personality and then
the private life is the private life. But You've done
such a sort of beautiful job of taking trials and tribulations,
and you've been open about so much that you went
(17:35):
through personally in your life, but also making them teaching
moments and sharing them for other people's benefit. And I'm
curious as to how you were able to reconcile that.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yeah, well, you know, I think that morning television is
such a different animal. You develop, you know, these parasocial
relationships with the anchors. You do get to know them.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
You know.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
People would say to me, I feel like I know you,
and I said, I'd always say, in many ways, I
think you do. Because they'd see you in serious moments,
they'd see you having fun, they'd see you having casual
chit chat with your colleagues. And I think maybe there
was a lot of interest in my personal life because
(18:24):
I was very authentic to who I was on television
that who I was off camera was really There was
no difference really to how I mean.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
There were some limitations of.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Things I would do on television that I wouldn't do
off camera, but I was very much the same person
with the same persona. And I think when people saw
me pregnant, they were with me when I had both
of my girls. They were with me when my husband
Jay got sick.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
You know.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
There I was a forty one year old widow with
two children, six and two, and I think people felt
terrible for me in the most loving way. I mean, obviously,
how can you say that about millions of people, But
I did feel this support coming to me from from
(19:19):
the Today Show viewers and the audience that you know
does welcome you and your home and their home like
your kind of family. And having seen that terrible thing
happen to Jay, and then to see me try to
be resilient and move forward, then I think people became
(19:42):
interested in my love life. Like you know, it made
for good tabloid fodder, and you know, it was just
part of being I think at the time where morning
shows had a real place in the culture, more so
than I think they do today because of the friendgmentation
of media, and I think people just were interested in
(20:06):
that how I was going to move forward.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
I mean, I mean sometimes it felt sometimes.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
It felt invasive, but during the trauma of losing Jay,
it was so helpful. It was so comforting. I felt
so cared about by complete strangers who sent me mass
cards and sympathy notes and stories about loss that they
(20:32):
had experienced. It was actually really beautiful and I still
have many of those letters in big tupperware bins in
my basement. And you know, I at Jay's funeral, I
asked everyone who came to write letters to ellieen Carey
because I knew that they were not going to have
(20:52):
the privilege of really getting to know their father, and
so to be able to have those that people wrote
such beautiful, thoughtful notes and letters and multi page letters
to the girls. That is really love. That's compassion, that's empathy.
(21:16):
And I felt it so strongly, and you know, a loss,
it was a terrible loss, but it did help and
it was comforting to know that people were out there
holding me in their hearts. After this quick break, Brooke
(21:43):
and I reflect on the burden and privilege of having
a platform and how we both try to use ours
in a positive way.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
You know, when I had very severe postpartum and wrote
and I wrote about it, I.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Stay right, you came on the Today Show.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I did. But to this day, people come with women
come up to me and tears in their eyes and
they and they cry and they say thank you, and
you know, and it's that there's something to be.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Said for shared loss or shared.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Experience, or that you know you're not alone, and that
you know to be willing to be open to that
I think is obviously a sign of who you are
as a person.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Well.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
I think especially you know, when it comes to taboo
topics like postpartum depression that people are so terrified of
and so frightened by, and to break the stigma and
to let people share and know it's okay and that
there's help. I mean, you did a tremendous public service,
and I hope that I did the same with colon cancer.
(22:56):
You know, nobody talked about colon cancer when CHA got
sick and died, and nobody really talked about the fact
that it's highly preventable if you get screened. And you know,
I think when you're a public figure, you have a platform,
and with that platform comes to responsibility and if you
(23:17):
can educate people and arm them with information that will
help them, that could even save their lives. I hate
to say it, but I think it's really selfish not share,
not to share your experience.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
And I you know, I call this show now What
because it's really about those pivotal times in our lives
when something very massive happens and we we really are
are the rug is pulled out from underneath us, and
we are thinking, oh shit.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
What do I you know?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Now?
Speaker 3 (23:50):
What do I do?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
And I imagine you've had many now what moments? Was
that one of your biggest? Now what moments? How did
you move forward from that?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I think when you have children, you really have no
option but to put one foot ahead of the other.
You know, when something like that happens, you don't have
the luxury of staying in bed and pulling the covers
over your head. You have to be there for your kids.
You have a responsibility. You have to parent. And so
(24:23):
that's what I did. And I also, you know, I
was a single parent. I had to keep working. I
wanted to keep working. I loved my job. And I
think early on realize that we're all terminal and we
have a finite amount of time on this planet, and
that I don't think Jay would want to destroy two
(24:45):
lives because he got cancer. I think he would want
me to bring as much joy into our daughter's lives
as possible. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the earth belongs to
the li and that sounds selfish and cold in a way,
I guess, but I think it means, you know, we're
(25:07):
here and we have to make the most of our
time while we have it, because you never know, and
life is fragile and you have to go on. And
I wanted to go on. I didn't want two or
four lives to be to be destroyed because Jay got cancer,
and god, it sucks. You know, it's so maddening when
(25:29):
someone young, especially gets cancer. They're so cheated out of
so much. And I'm still really angry about it, honestly,
it's just so unfair and infuriating.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And you started a very important organization, Stand Up to Cancer. Yeah,
you co founded fifteen years ago, right.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Right, and you raise with a bunch of women who
were just really angry, like I was, about the pace
of cancer research. When Jay got diagnosed with colorectal cancer
and it was metastatic, it was all over his liver.
The first line chemotherapy was something that had been around
since the nineteen fifties and this was nineteen ninety seven,
(26:14):
and it just infuriated me that they didn't have more options.
And it was very motivating not only for me to
get involved with callon Cancer Research, but I realized so
many cancers needed more, more support, more funding. You know,
one out of ten promising research proposals is approved or
funded by the NCI, and that means so many, so
(26:38):
many exciting possibilities are left on the cutting room floor.
And I just said, we have to support cancer research.
You know, it's still so much progress has been made,
but it's still a devastating disease. So many people die
of cancer still.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
I mean that you lost your sister yes years.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Later, she was fifty four and running for lieutenant governor
of Virginia, and that infuriates me too. I mean, anyone
listening to this who knows somebody who was taken way
too soon from this disease. It's just it's awful, and
it's uh, you know, one in one in two men
and one in three women will be diagnosed with this
(27:20):
in their lifetime. So that's why I'm so passionate about
funding research and science. You know, it's really become my
life's work. And I think when you're touched by something
personally brooke as you know, you become really invested in
doing something about it.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Well, it's it's you've made a huge amount of a difference,
and I have hundreds of millions of dollars to research
and care. Has happened because of stand up to cancer.
I mean, I think there's so much around it. My
dad died of pros day cancer, which you don't have
to die from.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
So we have not mentioned your sweet husband, but you
have been with your husband John for You've been with
Mulner for a decade, right, more than a yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yeah. We're having our ten year anniversary this June. And
he really likes your husband Chris too. I'm lucky. I
think we have funny husbands, yes, and kind of in
that dry, sarcastic, funny way. And I have to say Mulner,
who I call by his last name, I don't know
how I started that.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
I call Henchy henchy, so you do.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
He just is a very funny person, and he gets
frustrated with me because I'm a bit of a mess.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
I'm kind of like pig pen.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I leave a little trail of junk wherever I go,
and he is a neat freak, so that sometimes creates
problems for us. But most of the time we get
along really really well, and he does make me laugh.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Is there something that you're I mean, I just love
you keep going forward and the energy you have too.
It's not even reinventing, it's just repurposing and re exploring
or I don't even know if re is the right word.
It's just you know you and you're such an inspiration
to I started a company for and we've talked about
(29:19):
it for women. Yeah, in this era of our lives,
you know, that is full of possibility, and there is
so much more and we have so much to offer,
and we're so versatile and we're beautifully complex and we
we've done so many things, and we've yes wise and
raised children. And is there something you're especially excited about
(29:40):
in this next chapter?
Speaker 1 (29:42):
I mean, I honestly, you know, I just enjoy trying
my hardest and sometimes succeeding and putting good things out
in the world. Good things don't have to be happy things.
They can be you know, conversations about important topics, journalism
or whatever it is I do. Storytelling is a can
(30:05):
be and often I hope is a public service.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
You know that.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
It's even if I don't have a huge audience or
an interview, I do gets five thousand people. You know,
when I used to have five million people watching the
Today Show, I feel like if that's helped somebody understand something,
if it's helped them kind of take care of their health,
if it's made them aware of something they didn't know, Like,
(30:35):
I don't know, that's just I guess my love language
is telling stories and sharing information.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
And I'm excited, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
I'm excited that I'm starting a production company and I'm
going to get more involved in scripted and nonscripted projects,
which is great. You and I should talk and maybe
collaborate on something.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
I would love that there's I'm starting to find fine
books and fine stories that I really do resonate and
that I want to see cinematically.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
And I feel like I think female voices are getting
out there in a way that they haven't before. I
think over the last several years, women and their stories
and their voices and the people behind the scenes are
really making their mark. And I'm excited to have that
(31:29):
kind of storytelling be part of my portfolio as well.
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
(31:49):
reach out You can leave a short message at six
oh nine five point two five five five, or you
can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love
to hear from you. Next Question is a production of
iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are Me,
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
(32:12):
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
(32:35):
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question.
Brookshields is an American icon. I don't know about you,
but I remember her face being on the box of
Ivory Snow because she was such a pretty baby. She
later starred, of course, in Pretty Baby, and then froliced
(00:26):
in the Blue Lagoon. When I was in my twenties,
I learned that nothing came between her and her Calvin's.
I have been a fan of hers for a very
long time. I think she's so smart and funny and
miraculously survived enormous fame from a very early age. In fact,
there's a whole documentary about her life called Pretty Baby
(00:47):
Now on Hulu. When Brook invited me to be on
her podcast, now What, I thought, why not? Although I'm
a bit older than she is, we're both interested in
making sure we're living and loving life as more and
more candles appear on our birthday cakes. We ended up
having a great conversation, so I thought this might be
(01:08):
a really nice way to kick off twenty twenty four.
So I hope you all enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Well.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Thank you so much for doing this.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Oh my god, of course, I'm thrilled to talk to
you because you know, I'm such a big fan, and
I think I'm glad that people are kind of, you know,
getting to know you and your personality because you're so funny.
And I don't think people I think, like when obviously
suddenly Susan and you've had other roles, but I don't
think everyone appreciates your sense of humor or the fact
(01:41):
that you have such a good sense of humor.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Well, thank you for that. I think, you know, I
think it's anyway, it's odd. I think it's because if
you've been sort of positioned a certain way for a
good portion of your life, that is just what people
imprint on and you know you can't I guess you
can't be labeled pretty and funny, although I mean Lucio
Ball was like a beauty queen when she started.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I don't know why people have to put people in
boxes and don't appreciate that, As Walt Whitman said, we
contain multitudes, right, right.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I mean, I think it's easier for people because also
if you really, if you really take in all that
we're all capable of.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
It's a lot of pressure for people.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
And yeah, I'm really kind of I have to say
I was a bit intimidating, not a bit a lot
intimidated when I really heard, only because not as a friend,
because as a friend and like a girlfriend, I know
I can call you and we can be girls, and
we've talked about a multitude of private things together. But
it just, you know, you set the tone, and you're
(02:48):
the front runner for so many women. And the fact
that I got intimidated by the fact that I thought
you were going to be that I knew you were
going to be on the show, it struck me. I thought,
I wonder if she ever gets intimidated by interviews that
she has to give. Has there been anybody that's been
intimidating to you?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I think when I have to tackle topics that I
don't know a great deal about that I feel like
the learning curve is really steep. You know, if it's
somebody on a specific aspect of foreign policy that I
might not be uber knowledgeable about, or a medical thing
that I don't know a lot about. Sometimes I do
(03:31):
get intimidated, but I think at this point you just
let your natural curiosity take over. You have a conversation,
and I think the goal is to really make things
accessible and understandable to people. So I remember Tom Friedman
said to explain things simply, you have to understand them deeply.
(03:53):
So I try to strike that balance of understanding something
and then synthesizing it and distill.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
That's a that's a tall order, but the research involved,
I think is daunting, and I'm sure you know, to
make it accessible for other people is really.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Is really the gift of being a journalist.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
You wanted to be a journalist from the time you
were a little kid. I mean, you're the You're the
youngest of four, correct, you grew up in Virginia and
you said you wanted to be a journalist from a
young age. What how did you know that that's what
you wanted. What was it about journalism that intrigued you.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I think I wanted to do something that had to
do with language and writing, and I think it was
the process of elimination. Honestly, I wasn't very strong in
math and science. I hate to say that because that's
such a stereotypical thing, but I really gravitated towards words
and language and writing and more creative pursuit. So I
(05:00):
knew I wanted to do something that involved some form
of communication, whether it was writing or radio or talking.
And I think because my dad was a print journalist
early in his career, and he saw that I wrote well,
and I wrote quickly because I was such a procrastinator
(05:21):
as a kid, I'd wait till the last minute to
do my homework, but I was able to write things
under pressure. And I think he thought, wow, journalism might
be a really great career for you. I mean, he
didn't say that, but we sort of went in that direction.
And I got internships when I was in college, and
I worked at three different radio stations, and I wrote
(05:42):
for my school newspaper and at Uva, I wrote for
the Cavalier Daily.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
So I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And you know, I think when you are lucky enough
to find a job you'd love, that is such a gift.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Do you remember the first time that you fell in
love with the idea of news, like the news moment
that made you just fall in love with that medium.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I don't remember if there was one particular moment. I
just loved every aspect of jumping into a local news van,
not knowing what you were going to find when you
stopped to cover a story, having to jump out get
your bearings, figure out what was going on, find people
(06:29):
to talk to, start painting a picture of the story
in your mind, listening to the sound bites on your
little mini tape recorder on the way home, writing the script,
figuring out what you're maybe if you're going live from
the location, what your you know your live intro is
going to be, what your outro is going to be,
(06:49):
and doing it? Thank you much pressure. Oh yeah, it's
so fun. It's such an adrenaline rush and it's just excite.
And then you've got this thing that you've produced and
it's done and it's over and you can go home
(07:09):
and leave it behind.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
It's awesome.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And also just the thinking on your feet and that
being able to adapt. I mean, it's our version as
an actor of improv. You know, you just it's yes,
and you know, you never shut anything down. It's always
what's the next thing. But it's interesting though I don't
think you know, my daughter, I always things happen and
(07:34):
things don't happen for them, and I try to tell
them all the time that you know, rejection is just
part of growth, and especially in this medium. What you're
what you I mean there must have been so much rejection.
And part of what I wanted to do with this
show is to normalize rejection, you know, to show people
(07:55):
that you can recover from it, that it happens to
all of us, and it's how you're gone and how
you continue that really reveals who you are.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
That's so true. That's so true.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
And I mean from the get go, I had people
telling me, you know, oh, you're never going to make
it in the business. The president of CNN when I
did a really bad report, like I was too young
and really bad, and he called the assignment desk at
CNN in Washington said he never wanted to see me
(08:28):
on the air again. Talk about like deflating. And you know,
I had a really challenging time when I went to CBS,
both internally with the politics there and externally with people
I think wanting to tear me down and not picking
up what I was putting down in terms of trying
(08:49):
to retool an evening news broadcast. And it's hard, and
you're right, everybody deals with rejection or disappointment or hopes
at some point in their lives and it's no fun,
but it's just part of life.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
How did you move on from it, though, what do
you do?
Speaker 4 (09:07):
What was I mean?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I think I had different reactions that differed two different disappointments,
Like when the president of CNN said he never wanted
to see me on the air again. I was just
like devastated. But I also thought, maybe he's right. Maybe
I need more experience. Maybe I'm not ready, and I
just need to do it more. And that's when I
(09:29):
moved to Atlanta and became a producer and started doing
on air stuff little by little and found a mentor.
That's when I went to Miami and became a local
news and just churned out story after story. And you know,
I agree with Malcolm Gladwell, it takes about ten thousand
hours to get good at anything. And I just thought,
you know, I'm just I need more practice, I need
(09:49):
more experience. So I took it personally, and yet I
didn't take it personally, and I tried to figure out, well,
how could I change the circumstances I found myself in.
When we come back, Brooke and I debunked the morning
(10:10):
show stigma and discuss one of the central tenets of
journalism objectivity. That's right after this. If you want to
get smarter every morning with a breakdown of the news
and fascinating takes on health and wellness and pop culture.
Sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake Upcall by going
(10:32):
to Katiecouric dot com.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
You were interviewed by people after you left CBS and
you said you didn't think that people really internally, ever
really accepted you. And you said, I thought we were
much further along when it came to sexism. What prompted
that observation.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Well, I think if you had sort of been in
my shoes during those five years. And I think a
lot has changed. I think that sexism is still one
of the most acceptable isms, less so than it used
to be. But I think that I got criticized for
what I wore my first night on the evening news.
(11:18):
I got criticized for the way I held my hands,
these really dopey things that a mail anchor would just
never be subjected to. I mean, let's face it, it's
more interesting, I think, to look at women on television
because there's more variety. You know, men just look generally
a certain way, where a certain suit and a tie,
(11:40):
and I think that not everyone. And by the way,
I had a lot of friends within CBS, but a
lot of people I think sort of didn't like outsiders.
It's a pretty insular place. People go there and they
kind of spend their entire careers there. So I had
the out status, I had the first woman's status. I
(12:03):
had the morning show albatross around my neck, that somehow
I lacked rabatas, which I always say is Latin for testicles,
and you know, and that and that somehow I wasn't
enough of a you know, a serious journalist to handle
the CBS evening news, which was just honestly boloney. So
(12:26):
I think there were a lot of and not just
I think there were a lot of biases that honestly
infected or affected the way people saw me in that role.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
What just explained to me what the morning show stigma?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Oh well, I think that people, you know, even though
Tom Brokaw did the Today Show, for example, and even
John Chancellor did the Today Show, I think there is
a feeling that the morning shows are very fluffy and
that they don't deal with serious news, and they're not.
(13:06):
They're not done or anchored by serious people. I think
that's an unfair characterization because I did so many serious
interviews during my fifteen years at the Today Show, and
I did many dateline specials. I interviewed Supreme Court justices
and presidents and world leaders. But I think that it
(13:26):
just has this kind of unfair sort of impromoder as
kind of a you know, a light fluffy show.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
It's entertainment, not news.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, But I was really really proud of working on
The Today Show and really proud of a lot of
the work we did in the stories and the serious
stories I covered, from Oklahoma City bombing to nine to eleven,
to presidential elections to all kinds of really important stories.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
I mean, you've covered so much, and I'm curious about.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
How you cover some of the more divisive issues without
inserting your personal opinion.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
I honestly try to understand what the person is saying,
and I try to learn from that and ask questions
that I think other people would ask. I do try to,
you know, have a vulcan mind meld with people who
might be watching, and I try to be objective, but
you know, I have at this point in my life,
(14:26):
I'm sixty six years old. There are certain things that
I really believe in it, and it is hard to sometimes,
like interview somebody who is against abortion. You know, I'm
for reproductive rights. I am for stricter gun laws. Have
I think, at this point in my career, been able
(14:47):
to say there's some things that I really deeply believe in,
and so I think I do have biases when it
comes to those topics. But in other instances is I
just try to listen and challenge when necessary and in
a respectful way, you know, have a conversation with people.
(15:11):
But you know, as I think, there's no such thing
as true objectivity. You know, unless you're doing the very
strict to what when we're why, if you're trying to
put any context or any kind of explanation behind an event,
it's inevitable that your perspective is going to be influenced
(15:33):
by your point of view in some way.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
And do you feel like you are now there's areas
of your personality that you can more freely and unapologetically
share now that you might not have in your early days.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
And news, yeah, they were like, you know, there were
third rails, like you couldn't talk about gun violence. And
I did a whole documentary about why gun violence was
out of control in this country. You know, I couldn't
have done that anchoring the Today Show, I could not
have had a strong opinion.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
With your media company.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Now you can, yeah, put out the messaging that you
believe in and you know, well, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Brooke, I was able to shape the broadcast slightly differently
when I was at CBS. I could focus more on
women's stories. You know, we did something on dating violence,
we did something on you know, sexual assault in the military.
I did, you know, stories that I think a male
anchor would not have necessarily thought about. And so I
(16:35):
was able to make my mark in some ways when
it came to story selection. So I feel like I
wasn't totally you know, hamstrung by being in a more
traditional media environment.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Well, I'm relieved and glad to hear that. I think
you're a very strong business woman in so far as
the way you handled this fascination with your personal life
in a way that made it not get stolen from you.
You know. I mean, I've felt that my whole life.
(17:13):
But I'm right, I'm not in new I'm not in news,
you know, but that that that piece is usually not
something that gets it's usually that that personality and then
the private life is the private life. But You've done
such a sort of beautiful job of taking trials and tribulations,
and you've been open about so much that you went
(17:35):
through personally in your life, but also making them teaching
moments and sharing them for other people's benefit. And I'm
curious as to how you were able to reconcile that.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yeah, well, you know, I think that morning television is
such a different animal. You develop, you know, these parasocial
relationships with the anchors. You do get to know them.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
You know.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
People would say to me, I feel like I know you,
and I said, I'd always say, in many ways, I
think you do. Because they'd see you in serious moments,
they'd see you having fun, they'd see you having casual
chit chat with your colleagues. And I think maybe there
was a lot of interest in my personal life because
(18:24):
I was very authentic to who I was on television
that who I was off camera was really There was
no difference really to how I mean.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
There were some limitations of.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Things I would do on television that I wouldn't do
off camera, but I was very much the same person
with the same persona. And I think when people saw
me pregnant, they were with me when I had both
of my girls. They were with me when my husband
Jay got sick.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
You know.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
There I was a forty one year old widow with
two children, six and two, and I think people felt
terrible for me in the most loving way. I mean, obviously,
how can you say that about millions of people, But
I did feel this support coming to me from from
(19:19):
the Today Show viewers and the audience that you know
does welcome you and your home and their home like
your kind of family. And having seen that terrible thing
happen to Jay, and then to see me try to
be resilient and move forward, then I think people became
(19:42):
interested in my love life. Like you know, it made
for good tabloid fodder, and you know, it was just
part of being I think at the time where morning
shows had a real place in the culture, more so
than I think they do today because of the friendgmentation
of media, and I think people just were interested in
(20:06):
that how I was going to move forward.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
I mean, I mean sometimes it felt sometimes.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
It felt invasive, but during the trauma of losing Jay,
it was so helpful. It was so comforting. I felt
so cared about by complete strangers who sent me mass
cards and sympathy notes and stories about loss that they
(20:32):
had experienced. It was actually really beautiful and I still
have many of those letters in big tupperware bins in
my basement. And you know, I at Jay's funeral, I
asked everyone who came to write letters to ellieen Carey
because I knew that they were not going to have
(20:52):
the privilege of really getting to know their father, and
so to be able to have those that people wrote
such beautiful, thoughtful notes and letters and multi page letters
to the girls. That is really love. That's compassion, that's empathy.
(21:16):
And I felt it so strongly, and you know, a loss,
it was a terrible loss, but it did help and
it was comforting to know that people were out there
holding me in their hearts. After this quick break, Brooke
(21:43):
and I reflect on the burden and privilege of having
a platform and how we both try to use ours
in a positive way.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
You know, when I had very severe postpartum and wrote
and I wrote about it, I.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Stay right, you came on the Today Show.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I did. But to this day, people come with women
come up to me and tears in their eyes and
they and they cry and they say thank you, and
you know, and it's that there's something to be.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Said for shared loss or shared.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Experience, or that you know you're not alone, and that
you know to be willing to be open to that
I think is obviously a sign of who you are
as a person.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Well.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
I think especially you know, when it comes to taboo
topics like postpartum depression that people are so terrified of
and so frightened by, and to break the stigma and
to let people share and know it's okay and that
there's help. I mean, you did a tremendous public service,
and I hope that I did the same with colon cancer.
(22:56):
You know, nobody talked about colon cancer when CHA got
sick and died, and nobody really talked about the fact
that it's highly preventable if you get screened. And you know,
I think when you're a public figure, you have a platform,
and with that platform comes to responsibility and if you
(23:17):
can educate people and arm them with information that will
help them, that could even save their lives. I hate
to say it, but I think it's really selfish not share,
not to share your experience.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
And I you know, I call this show now What
because it's really about those pivotal times in our lives
when something very massive happens and we we really are
are the rug is pulled out from underneath us, and
we are thinking, oh shit.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
What do I you know?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Now?
Speaker 3 (23:50):
What do I do?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
And I imagine you've had many now what moments? Was
that one of your biggest? Now what moments? How did
you move forward from that?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I think when you have children, you really have no
option but to put one foot ahead of the other.
You know, when something like that happens, you don't have
the luxury of staying in bed and pulling the covers
over your head. You have to be there for your kids.
You have a responsibility. You have to parent. And so
(24:23):
that's what I did. And I also, you know, I
was a single parent. I had to keep working. I
wanted to keep working. I loved my job. And I
think early on realize that we're all terminal and we
have a finite amount of time on this planet, and
that I don't think Jay would want to destroy two
(24:45):
lives because he got cancer. I think he would want
me to bring as much joy into our daughter's lives
as possible. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the earth belongs to
the li and that sounds selfish and cold in a way,
I guess, but I think it means, you know, we're
(25:07):
here and we have to make the most of our
time while we have it, because you never know, and
life is fragile and you have to go on. And
I wanted to go on. I didn't want two or
four lives to be to be destroyed because Jay got cancer,
and god, it sucks. You know, it's so maddening when
(25:29):
someone young, especially gets cancer. They're so cheated out of
so much. And I'm still really angry about it, honestly,
it's just so unfair and infuriating.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And you started a very important organization, Stand Up to Cancer. Yeah,
you co founded fifteen years ago, right.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Right, and you raise with a bunch of women who
were just really angry, like I was, about the pace
of cancer research. When Jay got diagnosed with colorectal cancer
and it was metastatic, it was all over his liver.
The first line chemotherapy was something that had been around
since the nineteen fifties and this was nineteen ninety seven,
(26:14):
and it just infuriated me that they didn't have more options.
And it was very motivating not only for me to
get involved with callon Cancer Research, but I realized so
many cancers needed more, more support, more funding. You know,
one out of ten promising research proposals is approved or
funded by the NCI, and that means so many, so
(26:38):
many exciting possibilities are left on the cutting room floor.
And I just said, we have to support cancer research.
You know, it's still so much progress has been made,
but it's still a devastating disease. So many people die
of cancer still.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
I mean that you lost your sister yes years.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Later, she was fifty four and running for lieutenant governor
of Virginia, and that infuriates me too. I mean, anyone
listening to this who knows somebody who was taken way
too soon from this disease. It's just it's awful, and
it's uh, you know, one in one in two men
and one in three women will be diagnosed with this
(27:20):
in their lifetime. So that's why I'm so passionate about
funding research and science. You know, it's really become my
life's work. And I think when you're touched by something
personally brooke as you know, you become really invested in
doing something about it.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Well, it's it's you've made a huge amount of a difference,
and I have hundreds of millions of dollars to research
and care. Has happened because of stand up to cancer.
I mean, I think there's so much around it. My
dad died of pros day cancer, which you don't have
to die from.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
So we have not mentioned your sweet husband, but you
have been with your husband John for You've been with
Mulner for a decade, right, more than a yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yeah. We're having our ten year anniversary this June. And
he really likes your husband Chris too. I'm lucky. I
think we have funny husbands, yes, and kind of in
that dry, sarcastic, funny way. And I have to say Mulner,
who I call by his last name, I don't know
how I started that.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
I call Henchy henchy, so you do.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
He just is a very funny person, and he gets
frustrated with me because I'm a bit of a mess.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
I'm kind of like pig pen.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I leave a little trail of junk wherever I go,
and he is a neat freak, so that sometimes creates
problems for us. But most of the time we get
along really really well, and he does make me laugh.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Is there something that you're I mean, I just love
you keep going forward and the energy you have too.
It's not even reinventing, it's just repurposing and re exploring
or I don't even know if re is the right word.
It's just you know you and you're such an inspiration
to I started a company for and we've talked about
(29:19):
it for women. Yeah, in this era of our lives,
you know, that is full of possibility, and there is
so much more and we have so much to offer,
and we're so versatile and we're beautifully complex and we
we've done so many things, and we've yes wise and
raised children. And is there something you're especially excited about
(29:40):
in this next chapter?
Speaker 1 (29:42):
I mean, I honestly, you know, I just enjoy trying
my hardest and sometimes succeeding and putting good things out
in the world. Good things don't have to be happy things.
They can be you know, conversations about important topics, journalism
or whatever it is I do. Storytelling is a can
(30:05):
be and often I hope is a public service.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
You know that.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
It's even if I don't have a huge audience or
an interview, I do gets five thousand people. You know,
when I used to have five million people watching the
Today Show, I feel like if that's helped somebody understand something,
if it's helped them kind of take care of their health,
if it's made them aware of something they didn't know, Like,
(30:35):
I don't know, that's just I guess my love language
is telling stories and sharing information.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
And I'm excited, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
I'm excited that I'm starting a production company and I'm
going to get more involved in scripted and nonscripted projects,
which is great. You and I should talk and maybe
collaborate on something.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
I would love that there's I'm starting to find fine
books and fine stories that I really do resonate and
that I want to see cinematically.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
And I feel like I think female voices are getting
out there in a way that they haven't before. I
think over the last several years, women and their stories
and their voices and the people behind the scenes are
really making their mark. And I'm excited to have that
(31:29):
kind of storytelling be part of my portfolio as well.
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
(31:49):
reach out You can leave a short message at six
oh nine five point two five five five, or you
can send me a DM on Instagram. I would love
to hear from you. Next Question is a production of
iHeartMedia and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers are Me,
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
(32:12):
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
(32:35):
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Katie Couric
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