October 23, 2025 • 61 mins
Bernie Sanders is 84, has spent more than three decades in Congress, and can still pack a rally with people half his age. On this episode of Next Question, Katie Couric talks with the senator about his new book Fight Oligarchy and why he thinks America is at a tipping point. From Trump and the billionaire class to AI, Gaza, and the future of the Democratic Party, Bernie is as blunt, consistent, and unflinching as ever. He even has a few questions for Katie!
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'll tell you something, and what I like about these
hour shows. By the way, we can shut Yeah, well
that a thirteen second sound bite, right right? All right?
Are you ready for another question?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Oh? Go ahead, hit me, hit me, Bernie.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Yes, it's the last time you're going to bite me
on your show. Right.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
No, that's not true. I'm thrilled to have you.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question. My
guest today. Bernie Sanders is eighty four years old, has
spent thirty four years in Congress, and he can still
pack a rally with people a quarter of his age.
We've talked many times over the years, and today he
even throws a few questions my way. But this moment
feels especially urgent for him, and he argues for America.
(00:47):
Bernie's long warned that our politics are being captured by
the wealthy few. From Trump's inauguration stage in January to
his tax cuts for the ultra rich, that warning seems legitimate.
His Fighting Oligarchy tour with AOC and other young progressives
has become a movement, and his new book, Fight Oligarchy
(01:08):
doubles down on that message. But is that message too
far to the left. Well, he certainly doesn't think so.
We talk about the billionaire class, the cost of living,
the demonization of immigrants, and of course the government shut down,
not to mention the current state of the Democratic Party.
Bernie Sanders thinks a movement is afoot. But how will
(01:32):
this movement grow and how will it change the way
America fundamentally works. Here's our conversation, Senator Sanders, great to
see you again. Thank you for spending some time with
us at the start of this year. I know you
launched your Fighting Oligarchy tour and you were amazed by
the passionate, enormous turnout that you were getting in so
(01:56):
many places. What does that tell you or what have
you learned from that response about the way Americans are
feeling right now about the state of our country.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Well, Katie, a couple of things. One of the observations
that we made, we keep pretty good tabs on these things,
is that the people who are coming out, and we
ended up speaking to over three hundred thousand people in
twenty one states, we're not just you know, Bernie supporters.
(02:27):
Many of them were independents and many of them were Republicans.
And what really astounded me about the tours. You know,
I'm not running for any of them, not running for president,
running for the Senate. And we go to places like
La and thirty six thousand people come out then, but
thirty four thousand people come out. We go to a
Republican district in California. Fulsome remember Falsome, Johnny Casson.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Oh yeah, of course, the Folsom County Jail, right.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Exactly, they but jail. I had never been to Falsom,
heard of Falsome. Other than that, thirty thousand people come out.
In Idaho, we had twelve thousand people out Salt Lake City.
Twenty thousand people are you know, huge turnouts for a
non political campaign. And to answer your question, what it
tells me is that, for a variety of reasons, people
(03:18):
are really dissatisfied about the status quo, and they're very
dissatisfied about the direction in which Trump is taking this country.
But by the way, it is more than just Trump.
I mean, people are looking around them and they're saying,
you know, I'm working really hard, and yet my real
(03:41):
wages have not gone up because I can't afford housing.
Housing is expensive, can't afford to go to the grocery
store by decent food for my kids. Of course, the
healthcare is off the charts. Can't afford child care. We'd
like to have more kids, but who the health can
afford child care, can't afford to send my kids to college,
(04:02):
and people, you know, this is the key point that
in Katie, we are living today in the wealthiest country
in the history of the world. You know that you
think most people see that feel that they don't, and
they don't because the reality is that in the wealthiest
country in the history of the world, almost all of
(04:23):
the new wealth an income is going to the people
on top. And that is what this book is about.
That's what the tour is about. It's the reality that
in America today you got one guy Elon Musk owning
more wealth in the bottom fifty two percent of American households,
the top one percent owning more wealth in the bottom
(04:43):
ninety three percent of Americans. And while the very rich
become much much richer, you have sixty percent of our
people struggling with living paycheck to paycheck.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
In fact, Senator, your book called Fight Oligarchy, which I
have right here, you have said that a lot of
pundits and politicians have argued that the term oligarchy isn't
something that ordinary people understand. But you disagree with that assessment. Why, oh, okay, you.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Under said very well. I mean, you know, the media
may not appreciate it. My friends in Congress may not
appreciate it. But I don't care what your politics are.
You're a conservative, Republican, your progressive, your socialist, whatever you
may be. You understand that the working class of this
country is going nowhere in a hurry, while the wealthiest
(05:35):
people have more, not just economic power, Katie, they have
political power as well, see go out. And I'm sure
again I don't care what people's politics are. You tell me,
do you think democracy is about one guy, mister Musk,
the wealthiest guy in the world, spending two hundred and
seventy million dollars to elect Donald Trump president. But it's
(05:58):
not just Republicans. You have billionaires in the Democratic Party
who spend huge amounts of money to let candidates they want.
That is not democracy, That is oligarchy. That's enormous power
in the hands of the few. So I think what
people perceive when I write about in the book is
we got to get rid of this disastrous citizens. United
(06:18):
Supreme Court decision which allows billionaires to fund super PACs
to elect their.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Candidates treats them as regular individual citizens, right right, and
companies and corporations as citizens, right right.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
But bottom line, does anybody really think that it's appropriate
that billionaires can contribute unlimited amounts of money to a
super pac who then can elect the candidates they want
to defeat the candidates they don't want. No one thinks
that that's democracy. So you got today in what this
book is about is the reality that we have a
corrupt campaign finance system controlled by billionaires. We have a
(06:56):
rigged economy where the rich get much richer. And by
the way, Katie, I worry very much about what artificial
intelligence and robotics is going to do with working families
throughout this country. And that is the reality. It's a
reality we don't talk about in Congress very much, we
don't talk about it in the media very much, but
(07:16):
it's something that has to be discussed.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Well, let me ask you about two points you raised,
if I could, Senator, I mean, given the current state
of the Supreme Court and the people who are sitting
on the Supreme Court, how likely is it that citizens
United would ever be overturned in the near future.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Well, that's a very good question, and I very worry
very much about the what's going on in the Supreme
Court and who their members are and where their allegiances are.
But this is what I do believe, Katie, and I
think history backs me up. As important as the Supreme
Court is, and it is important, as important as Congresses,
(07:55):
and it is important the White House, very important at
the end of the day day. What history has always
told us is that real change I'm talking about, real
change always takes place from the grassroots level. It's when
people get mobilized from the bottom on up and not
(08:16):
from the top one down. And we have seen that,
by the way, something as Americans we should be very
proud of. You can remember as I can. Let's just
say fifty or sixty years ago. Do you think women
would have been hosting media shows in America? Remember that? Oh? Yeah,
th those all men are correct? Yes, when we have
(08:39):
states where the two United States senators of both women,
where women governors are all over this country, right, No,
it would have been unheard of, correct, correct, But what happened.
What happened is that you know, women for decades, many
many decades, going way back, when said, you know what,
we want to serve in the military. We want to
(09:01):
be confidence. We want to run for president, we want
to be governance, we want to be senators. And people
mobilized at the grassroots leven and we had, you know,
in a sense, a revolution in women's rights in this country, which,
by the way, I worry, you know about the counter
attacking against abortion rights and so forth. But no question,
and of.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Course we have the civil rights movement, and now the
Supreme Court is revisiting the Voting Rights Act and may
significantly erode that. Correct.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Correct, But even my point is in terms of the
civil rights. But when I was a kid, you know,
and you had in the South, you know, African Americans
could not drink at a bloody water fountain, kids could
not go to with school, massive segregation. And that changed
not just because of the great people like doctor Martin
(09:50):
Luther King Junior and others, because of the grass movement.
People will need to get arrested, stand up and fight
for justice. Right now, in Trump's right wing administration, you
have a gay guy to be Secretary of Treasury in
a gay marriage, would you have dreamed. Could you have
ever dreamed that we'd have a gay people running for
(10:11):
office of governors? All of those positive changes, struggles against bigotry,
whether it's sexism or racism or homophobia, they were warrant
one not by the top on down, not by a
Supreme Court decision. The Supreme Court reflected what happened at
the grassroots level. And that's the same for workers' rights.
(10:33):
You know, in the thirties, you know, workers were working
sixties seventy hours a week, they had no rights. They
stood up, they formed trade unions, which, among other things,
gave us the forty hour work week, and et cetera.
So what I am saying, what was true in the past,
and what we've got to develop right now is a
strong grassroots political movement. And I see it happening where
(10:55):
people are saying a very simple point. Look, you disagree
with me, that's fine, But at the end of the day,
we want an economy. We want a government that works
for all people, not just Elon Musk and the other billionaires.
That's kind of what this book is about, and that's
what I'm fighting for.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Well, I want to ask you about sort of the
organizing principle of a resistance movement, a grassroots movement that
you're seeing when you've traveled around the country with people
coming out all across the US. I think there's a
lot of unhappiness. But how does a movement like that
actually have real impact? Right there's a lot of people
(11:36):
who are upset on social media. We've got the No
King's Rally that's happening tomorrow all over the country. And
yet with the power structure currently in place, right with
the Republican controlled Congress and the President, the Supreme Court
the way it is, how does a movement like this
(11:59):
under the circum stances gain real traction?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Good? Well, it's something that I and others are really
working on us. I think you've asked a very important question.
So tell you some of what we are doing. When
we did these fight Dollar Corkey rallies around the country,
we just didn't parachute in and do a nice rally
and leave and say have a nice day. We often
(12:24):
left behind US organizers and in our rallies we intentionally focused,
with some exceptions, but intentionally focused on congressional districts which
had Republican representatives who had won in fairly close elections,
(12:45):
so we left organizers. They had to mobilized people to
put pressure on their elected officials and to demand to
know why. For example, just one example, are there elected
officials we'd vote for a big, beautiful bill Trump's legislation
which through fifteen million low income and working class Americans
(13:08):
off of the healthcare they have because the devastating cuts
the Medicaid and raise premiums, double triple premiums healthcare premiums
for over twenty million more Americans. And we put pressure
with some success, on those legislative districts. We are right now, Katie,
as we speak, working with thousands of people, often young people,
(13:32):
helping them to run for school board or city council
or state legislature or whatever it might be. At the
local level, we are working and supporting candidates who are
running for US Senate, governor US House of Representatives. And
I will tell you that in the last number of years,
(13:53):
I know people know the name Alexandria Casio Cortez, but
she's great. But she is not alone. Dozen a strong
progressive members in the House of Representatives today who are
standing up, fighting for working class families, fighting for justice.
So we are having success we want to build on that.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
You know, Senator Sanders, I'm curious how you feel about
recent polling that showed that Americans view the Democrats as
just as extreme as Republicans. So are you worried that
moving further to the left will alienate the voters you need?
This is sort of the age old discussion right in
(14:34):
the Democratic Party. Should you be more centrists and attract
independent voters? If you become two left, will you alienate
those independent and centrist voters? And I'm sure you know
this is not a new concept for you, and I'm
curious how you view that and if it's something that
(14:54):
you think about and worry about, because it all comes
down to getting the votes and winning, right, Yep, all.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Right, I'm going to ask you a question. All right,
are you ready? Yeah, I'm gonna interview you, all right?
When we talk about moving left? All right? So what
are we talking about? All right? If I were to
say to you, Katie Kirk, I believe that healthcare is
a human right and that every man, woman, and child
(15:25):
in this country should have healthcare, and that the function
of our healthcare system should not be to make insurance
companies and drug companies incredibly rich, but to run a effective,
cost effective healthcare system for all, Because that's.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Not like we're going to say, do you agree with that?
And yes, I agree that.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
You're here, you're going to get the average vot Is
that two far left for you? No? All right? Nor
is it for the American people? Are you?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
No?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
And I think most of the viewers know. We are
the only major country on Earth. It's the richest country
on Earth that doesn't guarantee healthcare to all people. I
live in Burlington, Vermont. We want everybody to come up
to Vermont and visit us. I loove fifty miles away
from the Canadian border. Now, is there healthcare system perfect? No?
They got problems. But Katie, you end up you have
(16:19):
a serious surgery, you end up in a hospital in
Canada for a month. Do you know what your bill
is when you come out of that hospital?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Zero?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Zero? And by the way, do you know how much
they spend per person compared to what we spend. I'll
give you the answer.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I don't know the answer.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
It's death. So we are spending twice as much as
they do. We got eighty five million people uninsured or underinsured.
We got healthcare costs that are soaring, and we remain
the only major country on Earth not to guarantee healthcare
to old people. So all right, so you ask me,
all right, I'm not going to take the Democratic Party
to the left by saying that every American should have healthcare?
(17:03):
Is right, and we should take on degree to the
insurance companies, insurance and drug companies who charge us the
highest prices in the world. So you don't think that
that's too left.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Right, correct, correct, you're correct?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Right, how's your next question? Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah? God?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
All right, average America. This she is representing three hundred
and forty million Americans right in front of you. All right,
here comes the question. We live in a competitive global economy.
Seventy years ago in our great country, if you wanted
to go to a very good college, say in New
York City, Brooklyn College, City College. You want to go
(17:39):
to a great state university in California and in other
states around the country, do you know how much it
costs you to go to those colleges and universities?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
What and what year I'll.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Talk about seventy years ago, in the fifties or.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Something, oh, two thousand dollars a year?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
It depends my brother, who is seven years older than
I am. You know, we lived in a rent controlled
apartment in Brooklyn, New York, and Brooklyn College, which was
and is a very fine college. Back when my brother
went to college, it was tuition free. Okay, family, we
don't have any money, and my family didn't have to
(18:21):
pay or he lived at home. We lived at about
a couple of miles away, so we took him a
half hour to get to college. I'm sure he was
not crazy about living at home, but that's it. He
got a very good college education for free. That was
true in many states, true in Vermont at that time,
California at that time. I don't have to tell you
how much college education costs today, right, right, oh, Katie?
(18:43):
If I say to the American people, he is a
really left wing, revolutionary, communistic idea that we should go
back to where we were, roughly speaking, seventy years ago
and make our public colleges and universities tuition free. Katie
Kurk radical idea, too far left for the American leagle.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I don't think it's too far left, but I think
probably the devils in the details. How do you actually
do that? Right?
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Well, I don't think it's not complicated. Frankly, and by
the way, there's bipartisan support for the understanding that in
my state and all over this country, we don't have
enough skilled craft workers. We don't have enough plumbers, electricians,
sheet metal workers. We brought billions of dollars into Vermont
(19:29):
under Biden to improve our infrastructure. We don't even have
the workers to do the work that we need to do.
That's true all over America. So it's not just higher
education getting a college degree, as important as that is.
It is you want to become an electrician, you want
to become a plumber. So opportunities for men and women
to earn very good salaries if we have the vocational
(19:50):
schools needed to provide that training. All right, So that's
another radical idea.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
All right, okay, okay, I get your point, Bernie, I
get your I don't want to use up all our
interview time you asking me questions.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on the
go between running my media company, hosting my podcast, and
of course covering the news, and I know that to
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(20:37):
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(21:08):
to address you with this question. I hear you about
some of these ideas not being that radical at all.
Having said that, looking back at the last couple of elections,
it was not forgive me a Bernie Sanders aligned candidate
that beat Republicans in the House or Senate in swing
(21:31):
states or swing districts. The candidates who won are overwhelmingly
more moderate, as you know. So I guess my question
to you, what evidence do you have that your approach
will actually beat Republican candidates in tough territories.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Well, I have the evidence that in many respects, I'm
not quite in agreement with your analysis.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Okay, tell me why the.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Country we're seeing strong progresses at Alita, Grhalvar and Arizona
just want a landslide victory running as a strong progressive
just last month, and we eagerly await the Speaker of
the House to allow her to take her position, but
she won a very strong victory. Maybe most importantly right
(22:20):
now as you and I speak, are they're going to
be elections in a couple of weeks. And I think
the election the American people are most focused on is
in New York City. And New York City you have
the essence of an establishment candidate and Andrew Cuomo, you know,
former Governor Andrew is the establishment running against Zoron Mumdani,
(22:43):
who is somebody who shares my political views. Now, I
don't know what's going to happen in two weeks, but
the polling seems to suggest that Mumdani is in pretty
good shape, that he's putting together the kind of coalition
that you need to win black white Latino Asians that
he has right now. And this is Katie, when you
talk about Bernie Sanders politics, this is what we're talking about.
(23:07):
He has some eighty thousand volunteers as we speak knocking
on doors in New York City. Guys. Unbelievable, and to
my mind, that is the kind of politics that wins election,
and right now, as you may or may not notice,
when you're looking at Senate candidates around the country, more
and more of them were saying, you know what, I
(23:28):
think it's time to take on the oligocky, stand up
for the working class. And many of them themselves, whether
it is in Michigan, Maine, Nebraska, Texas, elsewhere, all working
class candidates who are prepared to stand up to big money.
So I think the movement is frankly in our direction.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, so you think change is a foot because I
was just going to mention there were four Senate Democratic
candidates who won in Trump states, as you know, Alyssa
slot Kinne Michigan, Tammy Baldwin and Wisconsin, Jackie ro Nevada,
Rubin Diego and Arizona. And all of them were more
moderate Democratic candidates. They moved to the middle and these elections.
(24:10):
Gego on immigration was to the right of his party.
Baldwin ran an ad agreeing with Trump on trade. So
I guess are you saying, Bernie, if I can call
you Bernie, that you think that things have changed considerably
since those elections were held.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I do think things have changed. When we talk about
moderate or moving to the left. You mentioned Tommy Boldlin
talking about trade. Well, you know what you're looking at
a guy who voted against the NAFTA trade agreement with
Mexico and who voted against permanent normal trade relations with China.
So you know, I don't know. Moving to the left,
(24:48):
is those trade agreements were disastered for working class families,
cost US thousands and thousands of factories and millions of
good paying jobs. Is I left or right? You can
tell me, but our trade policy has been or does that?
But again it gets back, be careful I think about
using left or right. What are the issues that you're
campaigning on now if a candidate, And let me give
(25:12):
another example. I don't have to tell you or the
American people what has gone on in Gaza for the
last year or so. We are looking at a situation
where the United States put over twenty two billion dollars
into Neta, Yaho's right wing extremist government, and the result
(25:33):
has been the killing of sixty five thousand people out
of two point two million and the wounding injuring of
one hundred and sixty thousand people ten percent of the
population of Gaza, by the way, mostly women, children, and
the elderly have been killed or wounded with American Aid. Now,
(25:54):
a year ago, Katie, everyone was saying, well, you got
to defend that the Yahoo, you got to defend what
Israeli military is thinking. That has radically changed. And if
you've noticed today, many candidates were running I don't care
whether they are moderate candidates, progressive, conservative, They're saying, you know,
we're not going to support more money going to Natanello,
(26:16):
and we're not going to take money from APEX. So again,
left right, I don't know what it is, but there's
certainly been a change of opinion on that issue.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Let me ask you about that because, as you know,
I mean, first of all, I guess before I even
dig deeper into the mayoral race here in New York City,
do you really think that New York City is the
best example for the rest of the country. In other words,
where goes New York City, there goes the rest of
the country. I think a lot of people might say,
(26:46):
what do you Hie? I mean, New York City is
a very unique place, full of very unique citizens, very liberal,
very diverse, a melting pot. I mean, that's why I
love New York City, where I am right now. People
from all over the world and all over the country
come here. But a lot of people would say, I'm sorry,
(27:08):
New York City is not where we're at politically.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Okay, good question. New York City is not necessarily the
rest of the country. But I would respond to you
into ways. I have been to the rest of the country. Okay,
I've been to Boise, Idaho. I've been to Salt Lake City, Utah.
Those are not that's not New York City type communities.
(27:36):
I have been to maybe one of the most Republican
districts in the entire country, and that is Mingo County,
West Virginia. You know where that is.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
No, I've never been to Mingo County, West Virginia's.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Beautiful anyhow, that district, not New York City. That county
of eighteen thousand people voted for Donald Trump to the
tune of seventy four percent. Okay, pretty trumpish, right right.
I won't there.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I went there, and what did they say.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
The first thing is, you know, we didn't have twenty
thousand people coming out, but we did four hundred people
coming out, and it was one of the greatest meetings,
and we videoed it, you know, as people are struggling
all over America. West Virginia has its own economic problems,
and you hear people, you know, town meetings. So people
got up and said, oh, this is what's going on.
I need to go to a specialist. I got to
(28:27):
go two hours because we don't have any specialists here.
I can't afford healthcare. Young lady gets up there and
you know, talks about you know, her dream to get
decent quality education, which is where West Virginia is not
particularly strong, et cetera, et cetera. Here's my point, Katie,
West Virginia is not New York City, LA. Is not Idaho.
All true, But at the end of the day, every
(28:50):
American needs quality healthcare. At the end of the day,
every parent wants decent childcare and education for their kids.
At the end of the day, all parents want to
be able to afford to give their kids decent quality food,
not junk food. New York City is not Idaho. Yes,
(29:12):
you're right, there are differences of opinion on many issues,
but there is much more commonality of interests in this
country than media and members of Congress perceive. And that's why,
I mean, one of the joys of my life hasn't
been able to go to literally every state in Americans
speak to zillions of people and really sit down with people,
(29:35):
big rallies, but sometimes we sit down and talk to
fifteen people. And at the end of the day, all
of our people, conservatives, progressives, independence, they want a decent
standard of living for their kids, for their parents, and
for themselves, and they're not getting it today.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
You know, in your book, Bernie, you talk about how
one percent of the population has more wealth than the
bottom ninety three percent of the population, And certainly income
inequality is a horrible and divisive issue in this country,
and I think responsible for a lot of our problems.
(30:13):
Having said that, how do you put guardrails on businesses
without bilifying them? Because we need businesses to succeed in
this country. Everyone benefits when a company is successful. You know,
communities benefit, employees benefit. So I guess my question is
how do you find the right balance to reduce income
(30:37):
and equality but not damage businesses so much that they
can't function in a way that is helpful to society good.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I mean, that's I think a legitimate concern, and I
wish I could tell you, Katie that I have a
four point program that would solve and answer you a
question with great city. I don't, but this is what
I do believe. I do believe that we have got
(31:09):
to deal with what I perceive as the kind of
uncontrolled greed that now exists at the very highest echelons
of the business community. And you know, I know sometimes
I got criticized this. I don't think it's quite fair.
I'm not here attacking God. In Vermont. You know, all
of the businesses, virtually all of a small businesses. You
(31:31):
got mom and pop working really hard, you know, and
they have five employees, and you know they're doing a
great job. But they're doing That's true all over this country.
But what we do have to deal with, Katie, is
that you've got people on top who really honestly believe
that they have the right to do anything they want
(31:55):
economically and politically. And they are very religious people. And
their religion, though, is greed is more and more and more,
and we have to deal with that. So are you
hearing me say, you know, I don't think people should
become rich. They're going to be rich people, and that's fine.
You start up a successful business, you make money, great,
(32:15):
good for you and that's great. You hire people, you
come up with new ideas, fantastic, We need you. But
I do think we have got to deal with greed.
I mean, let me turn that question around.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
If I might say, oh, here we go again, there
we go.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
That's Paul, and we determined that you, Katie Kirk, reflect
the views of three hundred and forty million.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Which I I mean, Elon Musk is on his way
to become a trillionaire and you got eighty five million
Americans that can't afford healthcare.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Does that make sense at all? So I think at
the first of all, we have to say, look, you
could start a business, you make money, good, great for it,
They're going to be rich. Great. Do you really need
a trillion dollars? Do you really need five hundred billion
dollars when kids in America can't afford to go to college?
And by the way, when you, as multi billionaires, use
(33:12):
you up political power to fight for tax breaks. I mean,
one of these things about Trump's big, beautiful build that
we're dealing with right now in the government shutdown are
trillion dollars in tax breaks for Musk and his friends
and massive cuts to Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act.
So first point is no, I am not anti business.
(33:32):
You want to start a business, good luck to you,
great do it. But I am anti greed and anti
incredible power on the part of the multi billionaires of
this country. And let me just say something else on business.
You may agree with me, you may not. Right now, Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg,
(33:55):
Larry Ellison, these are some of the richest guys in
America and they have an enormous impact over the media.
They on a lot of the media. But on top
of that, what they are doing right now as we speak,
is investing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of billions of
dollars into artificial intelligence and robotics.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
You are aware of that, right, yes, of course, yeah,
that's that could be a whole two hour conversation we
could have, but go on, all right, All that I.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Want to say is, and I would say that to
the average person, do you believe that Miss the Musk
and these are the guys and Miss the Musk is
pretty honest about he says he wants Tesla to build
millions of robots. Do you believe that these guys right now,
the richest people in America investing heavily in AI and
robotics are doing that in order to improve the standard
(34:46):
of living and life for the working families of this country.
What do you think, Katie, think that's what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
I would say no. I would say no. And in fact,
why can't Congress put more guardrails and force these companies
to consider the unintended negative consequences of this technology? And
why aren't more people talking about that instead of beating
China to the punch?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Good, good, and again, I think you're right, and I'm
afraid I have to be a little bit repetitious here
and tell you that the reason is if you are
mister Musk or mister Teal or mister Zuckerberg, you don't
want those regulations. And you know what, You've got a
lot of money to spend on your members of Congress
(35:33):
to say, hey, don't regulate us, we will do anything
we want.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
You're also very critical not only of Republicans, but of
the Democratic Party on this issue, aren't you? On whether
we're talking about corporate wealth and billionaires, which you think
Kamala Harris failed to really reach out and appeal to
working class voters, or the failure of members of Congress
(35:58):
and of you know who are Democrats to do something
about this. You're right, and put the guardrails on AI specifically, right.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I mean, and how you deal with this? Again, this
is really complicated stuff, and I'm not going to tell
you that I have a three second solution to it,
but this I do know. If we do not, in
one way or another, get a handle on this. And
this is not Bernie Sanders talking. This is people who
really understand AI and robotics a lot better than I do.
(36:30):
We are likely likely talking about millions and millions of
American workers losing their jobs. You know, I want to
see manufacturing be rebuilt in America. Trump talks about it
as well, but you know what, it's not going to
mean much to the average American worker if robots are
doing the work. I want to see small businesses flourish
(36:52):
in America, but if the entry level jobs and those
small and medium sized businesses are done by AI and
not kids who are leaving school, not going to mean
much for working people as well. So the fear right now,
not only it's a huge economic issue, and you're right,
it is not being discussed enough now. There are people
different with me. You know, some people say, well, Bernie,
(37:14):
you know there's always been these technological revolutions, new jobs created,
old jobs are lost. No, I don't think so this time.
I really don't. I think you're looking at massive changes
to the economy. But it's not only Katie. When you
deal about deal with hey I have You're talking not
just about economics in America today. I don't, you know.
(37:36):
I'm sure the viewers know this. You know, we got
a lot of serious personal issues, if you like, the
level of mental illness, and COVID only exacerbated that, the
level of loneliness that people are experienced, the loss of community.
There was a time, you know, everybody knew everybody else,
and now people feel isolated. Our kids are struggling. I'll
(37:58):
never forget, you know. I get around Vermont's schools and
I talk to teachers, and these day, Bernie, you know,
I spend half my time not teaching English, a Spanish
and myth. I spent half my time mentoring kids wishing,
you know, with drugs or whatever it may be. So
I've got a lot of emotional problems, and what I
worry about is kids spending their life, and not just
(38:23):
kids online their companions are going to be you know,
some chetbox.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Well, finally we're seeing a movement though. I mean, I'd
interviewed Jonathan Height last week, and we are seeing schools
and parents actually fighting back, schools having phone free days,
not allowing cell phones during school hours. That's happening more
and more. I think Kathy Hochel signed a law about
(38:51):
this here in New York State. So I think we
are seeing a backlash. But I could not agree with
you more about the impact. And I think the loneliness
epidemic is another huge thing that I think has been
accelerated by our addiction to technology. So I agree with
you one thousand percent on all these things.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
I'll tell you something and what I like about these
hour shows, by the way, we can chat. Yeah, Well
that a thirteen second sound bite, right right? All right,
all right, are you ready for another question?
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Oh go ahead, hit me, hit me, Bernie.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yes, it's the last time you're going to bte be
on your show.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Right, No, that's not true. I'm thrilled to have you.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Okay. Pew Research set the Pew.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yes Yes, out of Philadelphia, Yes, very reputable.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
A couple of years ago they did a poll Here's
what the question was, in so many words, American people,
do you think somebody like you, in your situation, middle class,
working class, upper income, whatever you may be, somebody like
you is better off today than they were fifty years ago?
(40:06):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yep?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
What was the answer? No? According to that poll, fifty
eight percent of the American people said no, I think
somebody like me was better off fifty years ago. And
people understood all of the new technology in healthcare that
saves life's cancer treatments that didn't exist fifty years ago,
(40:30):
drugs that save lives didn't exist, computers, cell phones. You know,
people are not unknowledgeable about many of the positive aspects
of modern society, right cell phones. In my view, you know,
an emergency is a good thing. And yet they thought
that life fifty years ago, buy and large was better.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
In fact, my daughter always says, Mom, I wish I'd
grown up like you in the seventies before all this
technology existed. So I'm not surprised to hear that answer.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
But it's an extraordinary when you think about it, Katie,
what does it say all of this technology, all of
this increase in worker productivity, has it made us healthier?
Or happier. Well, maybe not. And then what we got
to do is take a really deep breath and say,
all right, is the function? If you're Elon Musk wide respect,
(41:25):
I disagree with him on everything. It's a hard working guy,
is a brilliant guy. Their goal is efficiency. All right?
In twenty years, we're not going to need Katie Kirk
behind the microphone because you can have some artificial intelligence
person who knows more than you do. It's more articulate.
You know, you're not going to aid a politician like
Bernie Sanders somebody, you know? Is that really where we
(41:47):
want to go? Is efficiency the goal in life? Or
do you want to create a more human society whatever that
may mean. And one of the things when we talk
about why people are feeling less good about today than
they did fifty years ago is it's economic, but it's
(42:09):
also a sense of community where people I think back
then kind of felt more secure. The world wasn't shifting
under their feet. But even in economics, if I can,
let me just give you an example economics in years
fifty two years explosion in worker productivity technology, the average
(42:32):
weekly inflation adjusted for income for working people as lower
today than it was fifty two years ago, massive transfer
of wealth from the bottom ninety percent of the top
one percent. I grew up in New York City in
a rent controled apartment doing just I tried to figure
it out the back of the envelope calculations. You know
(42:54):
what my family paid in rent? We paid eighteen percent
of our income. We didn't have any money, but we
paid eighteen percent. No family in America's pay eighteen percent
of their income right now. My brother, as I mentioned,
went to college tuition free. So despite all of the technology,
we're seeing working families in many respects worse off. And
by the way you pull this thing, people are worried
(43:16):
that the kids will be even worse off than they are.
How many young people can afford to buy a house today?
Our generation, my generation people could buy homes. Working class
people could buy homes at a younger age than is
currently Okay, So all that I'm saying here is we
need a real national discussion about where do we want
to be. Is efficiency the only thing in life? Or
(43:37):
do we want to live happy, productive, meaningful lives. That's
a discussion we're not having.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Hi, everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've
been following me on social media, you know I love
to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of
my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blair, Jake Cohen,
Lighty Hoyke, Alison Roman, and Ininegarten. So I started a
free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips and
(44:09):
kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at katiecurreic dot com slash
good Taste. That's k A t I E C O
U r I C dot com slash good Taste. I
promised your taste buds will be happy you did. I
(44:33):
wanted to ask you about the role of the Democratic
Party in all this. You know, anecdotally, many people are
very concerned and worried about the direction of the country
and this massive executive overreach that we're seeing in so
many different areas of American life, and they're desperately looking
(44:54):
for an alternative. Obviously, you and AOC are striking a
chord when you go out on this national tour, but
many people are very frustrated with the Democratic Party. They
use words like feckless and ineffectual and rudderless. And I'm
curious if you could share what you think is wrong
(45:18):
with the Democratic Party, and I know you've been very
critical and not only what's wrong with it, but how
to make it right.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I think the Democratic Party is pulling out with the
lowest that has pulled decades. And I think, look again,
I don't care what your politics. Maybe, I'm sure we
have people like President Trump watching us. Everybody knows the
country is in trouble, in deep trouble. And my view,
(45:45):
Trump is making a very bad situation much worse. And
I think what people are saying is give us an understanding.
Why are things happening the way they are and what
are you going to do about it? Now? In my view,
Donald Trump is a demogogue and he does what demogogues
(46:09):
historically and all over the world today are doing. And
what demogogues are is are people who recognize that there
are serious problems facing the country. And Trump does. But
then what you do is you blame a powerless minority
for all of the problems. So in Germany in the
(46:30):
twenties and the thirties, it was the Jews who caused
all of the mass of economic problems facing the German people.
It was gypsies, it was gay people, in America, We've
always had, you know, the black community to blame for
all of our problems. Gaze, and today what Trump is
focusing on is on undocumented people. You can't afford housing,
(46:50):
it's undocumented, can't afford healthcare, it's the undocumented. Climate change
is sweeping the world. It's clearly the undocumented. Your kid's
not got any good education, the undocumented. That's what demogogues do.
You take a powerless minority and you blame them rather
than address the real issues. And to me, the failure
of the Democratic Party has been an unwillingness to recognize
(47:14):
the real issues. And that, by the way, is what
this book is about. The real issues are that we
are increasingly living in an oligarchic society. We're a handful
of billionaires who are incredibly greedy. These are not nice guys,
want it all and they control to a large degree,
(47:34):
both the Republican and Democratic Party. And what Democratics and
Mamdani and New York is beginning to do, this is
unprepared to take on the alogogus. You want to spend
all your money against me, go for it. I have
working class support, I have volunteers all over this country
and we're going to beat you. And to my mind,
that is exactly politically what we have got to do.
And economically we need a program that the Democrats also
(47:57):
don't have. Again, we mentioned we discussed them ago, whether
healthcare is a human right. I have I think fifteen
or sixteen Democrats out of forty seven in the Democratic
Caucus on Medicare for Roule. All I'm asking is to do,
in one way or another, what every other major country
has done. I got one third of the Democrats. That's
not where the American people are. American people are not
(48:18):
where the Democratic leadership is. On netting, Yahoo and what
is the terrible things that happen in Gaza. They're not
where the Democrats are. Not where they are on education,
They're not where they are demanding that the wealthy start
paying their fair share of taxes. So you ask me
why the Democratic leadership is struggling, and I think it's
largely that they are too much beholden to wealthy corporate
(48:41):
interests and not paying attention to the needs of the
vast majority of the people who are struggling working class people.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
I don't want to necessarily get into a full blown
discussion of Israel and Gaza. And I understand your point
about so many people and innocent civilians dying in Gaza,
but I also think it's important, is it not to
recognize that we just mark the to your anniversary of
(49:08):
October seventh, where was the biggest tragedy, the deadliest day
for the Jewish people since the Holocaust, and Zoram Mam
Donnie put out a statement that failed to condemn Hamas
on October eighth, before any military action had taken place
(49:29):
from Israel. And I think that's why many Jews in
New York City, just getting back as a microcosm of
kind of national conversations, feel uncomfortable or even fearful of
Zoram Mom Donnie. So you're Jewish, Bernie, right, I mean?
And so I know you mentioned Gaza twice, and I
(49:51):
hear what you're saying and understand very well how public
opinion has changed, But your failure to even mention October
seventh seems odd to me.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
No, it's not a failure if you check everything that I've.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Written, well, at least during our conversation here.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
So let me be clear, Kamas is a terrorist organization,
which I hope does not exist in the future. Camas
committed a disgusting war crime, attacked Israel, killed twelve hundred
innocent men, women and children, a lot of young people,
took hundreds of hostages, barbaric. The people who orchestrated that
(50:34):
disgusting attack are war criminals. Period. I have condemned from
day one that disgusting attack against Israel, period. And furthermore, Katie,
in my view, Israel had like any other country on Earth,
if somebody a terrorist attack takes place, you have the
(50:55):
right to respond. Israel had the right to respond and
to go after Kamas. Period. I've said that from day one.
But what I have also said is it is one
thing to go after Hamas. It is another thing to
go to war against the entire Palestinian people and end
(51:16):
up killing or injuring ten percent of the population. If
that same equivalent number applied to America, that would mean
thirty three million Americans would have been killed or wounded. Okay,
Israel did not have the right to destroy virtually every
healthcare facility and hospital, and school and university and water
(51:37):
system and housing. Almost all of the housing in Gaza
has been destroyed. So, Katie, Hamas is a disgusting terrorist organization,
and I want to see the Palestinian people be able
to evolve into a democratic society without a terrible group
like Hamas. But on the other hand, the leaders of
Kamas who engineered that attack are war criminals. D'ataignelle who
(52:01):
as of two weeks ago was starving, starving to death
the children, Polsinian children, and Gause he's also a Wokoman.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
Thank you for responding to that. I want to spend
the last few minutes if I could, asking questions that
my followers wanted me to ask you, because one of
the great things about this kind of journalism it's very
interactive and you can can basically give voice to people
who don't have an opportunity to sit with you, Bernie
(52:29):
for an hour and have a conversation. Here's one. What
do you think Trump is truly saying to Congress to
keep them in line? Is he threatening them with physical violence?
Look what happened to the judge who's vacation home was
bomb when she made a decision against Trump. He's come
to meet with Congress many time, one was just recently.
(52:50):
I guess the question is why are so many Republicans
failing to speak out against someone you consider an oligarch.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Oligogue and a demagogue. Thank you listener for asking that question.
When I talk about what I worry about in America today,
maybe I'm just an old fashioned conservative. I don't know.
I kind of believe in democracy, and that is that
I was elected to represent the people of Vermont, and
(53:23):
ninety nine other Senators were elected to represent the people
in their states. But what I see happening in the
Republican Party and it pains me because, let me be
very clear, I know many of these Republicans and I
disagree with them. They are often quite conservative men and women.
I don't think they evil people. I don't think they
(53:43):
are fascists. I don't think they believe in violence. But
what I do believe is they are very much intimidated
by Trump and the oligogus behind them. I will give
you just two examples. Many months ago, Democrats and Republicans
worked on what was called a continuing resolution to fund
(54:06):
the government, and they argued for months on healthcare and
everything else. Finally they reached a compromise. And I had
worked on that bill a lot of healthcare provisions in there.
I worked on literally they were going to vote on
it in the House of Representative. I don't know if
you remember this, Yes, Elon Musk sent out a tweet,
(54:27):
and in his tweet he lied. He said, oh, this,
this legislation will increase salaries some members of Congress by
forty percent total. Lie et cetera, et cetera. And I
literally a day or so before the vote, Republicans said,
oh my god, Elon Musk is going to run against us.
He's going to fund candidates against us. We can't support it.
(54:47):
That agreement fell through, which, by the way, leads us
to where we are in the shutdown today, many many
months later. Another example, conservative Republican guy named Tom Tillis.
I don't know if you know Tom.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
Yes, yes, I actually he heard you talking about Tom
Tillis on CNN the other night. But go ahead, for
those people who might have missed that town hall, tell
us what happened. Tell us what happened to Tom Tillis.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
Tell us is for North carol conservative Republican guy reads
the legislation, the big, big, beautiful bill. This is going
to be a disaster for North Carolina. People are going
to lose their healthcare. Of course, they're gonna stark camp
voteford in one day, Trump and the whole right wing
apparatus go after this guy. Billionaires say we're going to
primary you. You're out of here. Guy says, all right, fine,
(55:33):
our surrender. I'm not running for reelection. Very few Republicans
right now in the House or the Senate have the
courage to say, you know what, Donald Trump, you're acting unconstitutionally.
You're acting illegally, You're moving this country toward authoritarianism. Your
healthcare proposals are a disaster. More than a few understand that.
(55:54):
But because of the power of the moneyed interest who
will primary them if they stand up the Trump, they're silent,
and that concerns me very much.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
So they care more about power than their conscience.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
They understand that if they stand up and do the
right thing, they're going to have a hard time getting reelected. Now,
by the way, there are some who have said, you
know what, I don't give it THEMN I'm going to
represent my district, but they are few and far far between.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
In closing, Bernie, because you've been so generous with your time,
the government shutdown is continuing. Democrats are holding firm Republicans
are holding firm. Each side I think believes they're winning
the pr battle, if you will. How is this going
to end? When is it going to end?
Speaker 1 (56:42):
I hope it ends tomorrow. I hope it ends as
soon as possible, because nobody wants to see hard working
federal employees not get a paycheck or get fired or
get fired all. Butitrarily absolutely by Trump, which is by
the way, illegal. But look out has not been something
that the Trump administration worries much about. But this is
(57:04):
what I think, Katie, this is my own view. I'll
just tell you, you know, literally yesterday in Vermont, you know,
people are beating to receive their notices from the insurance companies,
asn't I you know, I just mentioned I've been talking
about the last couple of days. People are saying not
only a doubling in their premiums, not only are tripling,
(57:25):
in some cases are quadrupling of their premiums. In southern Vermont,
there are folks who are going to be paying fifty
percent of their middle class incomes on healthcare. That is
not only unconscionable, it's unsustainable. Nobody could do that. And
I think all over the country people are beginning to
get notices from their insurance companies about skyrocketing healthcare costs.
(57:50):
And I think Republicans will talk about everything. Just the
other day, Trump attacked me and on and on and
on forgot to mention one word, two words healthcare. They
don't want to talk about healthcare. But the American people
are catching on that we cannot see huge increases in
our healthcare premiums. We cannot see fifteen million people thrown
off of healthcare. In my view, and you know I
(58:12):
do study these things a little bit. We have a
broken system right now before Trump, they are taking us
over the edge and we may see our healthcare system
literally collapse.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
Do you think Republicans are going to budge or Democrats
are going to blink?
Speaker 1 (58:27):
I think Republicans when they go home to their districts,
they're going to hear from people say, you cannot vote
to double a triple my healthcare premiums. I can't afford it,
don't do it. And I think an agreement will be
reached on that basis.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
Senator Bernie Sanders, honestly, I could talk to you for
two more hours. There's so many questions I didn't get
to about what's happening with young men in this country.
I wanted to talk to you more about Zarah mom, Donnie,
but I questions for you. I know, I'm sure you
add more questions for me. But really it's great to
(59:01):
see you. I really really appreciate your time. And for
those who are interested. Your book. It's a small book.
You can carry it in your purse, almost in your pocket,
not quite called Fight Oligarchy by Bernie Sanders, and on
the back it says, Oligarchy is a system in which
a small number of extremely wealthy individuals control the economic, political,
(59:25):
and media life of a nation. It is a system
in which ordinary people have very little power to determine
the future of their country. If you're an American, it
is the system in which you're living that must change.
And the wealthiest nation on earth, we must build a
political movement that creates a government that represents all Americans,
(59:47):
not just a handful of billionaires. That's a bit of
what you'll read about in this book, in a lot
more detail. Again, Bernie Sanders, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (59:57):
Thank you very much, Kitty, good to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would
love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
of iHeartMedia and Katiekuric Media. The executive producers are Me,
(01:00:24):
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
(01:00:46):
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
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Katie Couric. You know I'm always on the go between
(01:01:06):
running my media company, hosting my podcast, and of course
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I'll tell you something, and what I like about these
hour shows. By the way, we can shut Yeah, well
that a thirteen second sound bite, right right? All right?
Are you ready for another question?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Oh? Go ahead, hit me, hit me, Bernie.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Yes, it's the last time you're going to bite me
on your show. Right.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
No, that's not true. I'm thrilled to have you.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and this is next question. My
guest today. Bernie Sanders is eighty four years old, has
spent thirty four years in Congress, and he can still
pack a rally with people a quarter of his age.
We've talked many times over the years, and today he
even throws a few questions my way. But this moment
feels especially urgent for him, and he argues for America.
(00:47):
Bernie's long warned that our politics are being captured by
the wealthy few. From Trump's inauguration stage in January to
his tax cuts for the ultra rich, that warning seems legitimate.
His Fighting Oligarchy tour with AOC and other young progressives
has become a movement, and his new book, Fight Oligarchy
(01:08):
doubles down on that message. But is that message too
far to the left. Well, he certainly doesn't think so.
We talk about the billionaire class, the cost of living,
the demonization of immigrants, and of course the government shut down,
not to mention the current state of the Democratic Party.
Bernie Sanders thinks a movement is afoot. But how will
(01:32):
this movement grow and how will it change the way
America fundamentally works. Here's our conversation, Senator Sanders, great to
see you again. Thank you for spending some time with
us at the start of this year. I know you
launched your Fighting Oligarchy tour and you were amazed by
the passionate, enormous turnout that you were getting in so
(01:56):
many places. What does that tell you or what have
you learned from that response about the way Americans are
feeling right now about the state of our country.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Well, Katie, a couple of things. One of the observations
that we made, we keep pretty good tabs on these things,
is that the people who are coming out, and we
ended up speaking to over three hundred thousand people in
twenty one states, we're not just you know, Bernie supporters.
(02:27):
Many of them were independents and many of them were Republicans.
And what really astounded me about the tours. You know,
I'm not running for any of them, not running for president,
running for the Senate. And we go to places like
La and thirty six thousand people come out then, but
thirty four thousand people come out. We go to a
Republican district in California. Fulsome remember Falsome, Johnny Casson.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Oh yeah, of course, the Folsom County Jail, right.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Exactly, they but jail. I had never been to Falsom,
heard of Falsome. Other than that, thirty thousand people come out.
In Idaho, we had twelve thousand people out Salt Lake City.
Twenty thousand people are you know, huge turnouts for a
non political campaign. And to answer your question, what it
tells me is that, for a variety of reasons, people
(03:18):
are really dissatisfied about the status quo, and they're very
dissatisfied about the direction in which Trump is taking this country.
But by the way, it is more than just Trump.
I mean, people are looking around them and they're saying,
you know, I'm working really hard, and yet my real
(03:41):
wages have not gone up because I can't afford housing.
Housing is expensive, can't afford to go to the grocery
store by decent food for my kids. Of course, the
healthcare is off the charts. Can't afford child care. We'd
like to have more kids, but who the health can
afford child care, can't afford to send my kids to college,
(04:02):
and people, you know, this is the key point that
in Katie, we are living today in the wealthiest country
in the history of the world. You know that you
think most people see that feel that they don't, and
they don't because the reality is that in the wealthiest
country in the history of the world, almost all of
(04:23):
the new wealth an income is going to the people
on top. And that is what this book is about.
That's what the tour is about. It's the reality that
in America today you got one guy Elon Musk owning
more wealth in the bottom fifty two percent of American households,
the top one percent owning more wealth in the bottom
(04:43):
ninety three percent of Americans. And while the very rich
become much much richer, you have sixty percent of our
people struggling with living paycheck to paycheck.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
In fact, Senator, your book called Fight Oligarchy, which I
have right here, you have said that a lot of
pundits and politicians have argued that the term oligarchy isn't
something that ordinary people understand. But you disagree with that assessment. Why, oh, okay, you.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Under said very well. I mean, you know, the media
may not appreciate it. My friends in Congress may not
appreciate it. But I don't care what your politics are.
You're a conservative, Republican, your progressive, your socialist, whatever you
may be. You understand that the working class of this
country is going nowhere in a hurry, while the wealthiest
(05:35):
people have more, not just economic power, Katie, they have
political power as well, see go out. And I'm sure
again I don't care what people's politics are. You tell me,
do you think democracy is about one guy, mister Musk,
the wealthiest guy in the world, spending two hundred and
seventy million dollars to elect Donald Trump president. But it's
(05:58):
not just Republicans. You have billionaires in the Democratic Party
who spend huge amounts of money to let candidates they want.
That is not democracy, That is oligarchy. That's enormous power
in the hands of the few. So I think what
people perceive when I write about in the book is
we got to get rid of this disastrous citizens. United
(06:18):
Supreme Court decision which allows billionaires to fund super PACs
to elect their.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Candidates treats them as regular individual citizens, right right, and
companies and corporations as citizens, right right.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
But bottom line, does anybody really think that it's appropriate
that billionaires can contribute unlimited amounts of money to a
super pac who then can elect the candidates they want
to defeat the candidates they don't want. No one thinks
that that's democracy. So you got today in what this
book is about is the reality that we have a
corrupt campaign finance system controlled by billionaires. We have a
(06:56):
rigged economy where the rich get much richer. And by
the way, Katie, I worry very much about what artificial
intelligence and robotics is going to do with working families
throughout this country. And that is the reality. It's a
reality we don't talk about in Congress very much, we
don't talk about it in the media very much, but
(07:16):
it's something that has to be discussed.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Well, let me ask you about two points you raised,
if I could, Senator, I mean, given the current state
of the Supreme Court and the people who are sitting
on the Supreme Court, how likely is it that citizens
United would ever be overturned in the near future.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Well, that's a very good question, and I very worry
very much about the what's going on in the Supreme
Court and who their members are and where their allegiances are.
But this is what I do believe, Katie, and I
think history backs me up. As important as the Supreme
Court is, and it is important, as important as Congresses,
(07:55):
and it is important the White House, very important at
the end of the day day. What history has always
told us is that real change I'm talking about, real
change always takes place from the grassroots level. It's when
people get mobilized from the bottom on up and not
(08:16):
from the top one down. And we have seen that,
by the way, something as Americans we should be very
proud of. You can remember as I can. Let's just
say fifty or sixty years ago. Do you think women
would have been hosting media shows in America? Remember that? Oh? Yeah,
th those all men are correct? Yes, when we have
(08:39):
states where the two United States senators of both women,
where women governors are all over this country, right, No,
it would have been unheard of, correct, correct, But what happened.
What happened is that you know, women for decades, many
many decades, going way back, when said, you know what,
we want to serve in the military. We want to
(09:01):
be confidence. We want to run for president, we want
to be governance, we want to be senators. And people
mobilized at the grassroots leven and we had, you know,
in a sense, a revolution in women's rights in this country, which,
by the way, I worry, you know about the counter
attacking against abortion rights and so forth. But no question,
and of.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Course we have the civil rights movement, and now the
Supreme Court is revisiting the Voting Rights Act and may
significantly erode that. Correct.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Correct, But even my point is in terms of the
civil rights. But when I was a kid, you know,
and you had in the South, you know, African Americans
could not drink at a bloody water fountain, kids could
not go to with school, massive segregation. And that changed
not just because of the great people like doctor Martin
(09:50):
Luther King Junior and others, because of the grass movement.
People will need to get arrested, stand up and fight
for justice. Right now, in Trump's right wing administration, you
have a gay guy to be Secretary of Treasury in
a gay marriage, would you have dreamed. Could you have
ever dreamed that we'd have a gay people running for
(10:11):
office of governors? All of those positive changes, struggles against bigotry,
whether it's sexism or racism or homophobia, they were warrant
one not by the top on down, not by a
Supreme Court decision. The Supreme Court reflected what happened at
the grassroots level. And that's the same for workers' rights.
(10:33):
You know, in the thirties, you know, workers were working
sixties seventy hours a week, they had no rights. They
stood up, they formed trade unions, which, among other things,
gave us the forty hour work week, and et cetera.
So what I am saying, what was true in the past,
and what we've got to develop right now is a
strong grassroots political movement. And I see it happening where
(10:55):
people are saying a very simple point. Look, you disagree
with me, that's fine, But at the end of the day,
we want an economy. We want a government that works
for all people, not just Elon Musk and the other billionaires.
That's kind of what this book is about, and that's
what I'm fighting for.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Well, I want to ask you about sort of the
organizing principle of a resistance movement, a grassroots movement that
you're seeing when you've traveled around the country with people
coming out all across the US. I think there's a
lot of unhappiness. But how does a movement like that
actually have real impact? Right there's a lot of people
(11:36):
who are upset on social media. We've got the No
King's Rally that's happening tomorrow all over the country. And
yet with the power structure currently in place, right with
the Republican controlled Congress and the President, the Supreme Court
the way it is, how does a movement like this
(11:59):
under the circum stances gain real traction?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Good? Well, it's something that I and others are really
working on us. I think you've asked a very important question.
So tell you some of what we are doing. When
we did these fight Dollar Corkey rallies around the country,
we just didn't parachute in and do a nice rally
and leave and say have a nice day. We often
(12:24):
left behind US organizers and in our rallies we intentionally focused,
with some exceptions, but intentionally focused on congressional districts which
had Republican representatives who had won in fairly close elections,
(12:45):
so we left organizers. They had to mobilized people to
put pressure on their elected officials and to demand to
know why. For example, just one example, are there elected
officials we'd vote for a big, beautiful bill Trump's legislation
which through fifteen million low income and working class Americans
(13:08):
off of the healthcare they have because the devastating cuts
the Medicaid and raise premiums, double triple premiums healthcare premiums
for over twenty million more Americans. And we put pressure
with some success, on those legislative districts. We are right now, Katie,
as we speak, working with thousands of people, often young people,
(13:32):
helping them to run for school board or city council
or state legislature or whatever it might be. At the
local level, we are working and supporting candidates who are
running for US Senate, governor US House of Representatives. And
I will tell you that in the last number of years,
(13:53):
I know people know the name Alexandria Casio Cortez, but
she's great. But she is not alone. Dozen a strong
progressive members in the House of Representatives today who are
standing up, fighting for working class families, fighting for justice.
So we are having success we want to build on that.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
You know, Senator Sanders, I'm curious how you feel about
recent polling that showed that Americans view the Democrats as
just as extreme as Republicans. So are you worried that
moving further to the left will alienate the voters you need?
This is sort of the age old discussion right in
(14:34):
the Democratic Party. Should you be more centrists and attract
independent voters? If you become two left, will you alienate
those independent and centrist voters? And I'm sure you know
this is not a new concept for you, and I'm
curious how you view that and if it's something that
(14:54):
you think about and worry about, because it all comes
down to getting the votes and winning, right, Yep, all.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Right, I'm going to ask you a question. All right,
are you ready? Yeah, I'm gonna interview you, all right?
When we talk about moving left? All right? So what
are we talking about? All right? If I were to
say to you, Katie Kirk, I believe that healthcare is
a human right and that every man, woman, and child
(15:25):
in this country should have healthcare, and that the function
of our healthcare system should not be to make insurance
companies and drug companies incredibly rich, but to run a effective,
cost effective healthcare system for all, Because that's.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Not like we're going to say, do you agree with that?
And yes, I agree that.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
You're here, you're going to get the average vot Is
that two far left for you? No? All right? Nor
is it for the American people? Are you?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
No?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
And I think most of the viewers know. We are
the only major country on Earth. It's the richest country
on Earth that doesn't guarantee healthcare to all people. I
live in Burlington, Vermont. We want everybody to come up
to Vermont and visit us. I loove fifty miles away
from the Canadian border. Now, is there healthcare system perfect? No?
They got problems. But Katie, you end up you have
(16:19):
a serious surgery, you end up in a hospital in
Canada for a month. Do you know what your bill
is when you come out of that hospital?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Zero?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Zero? And by the way, do you know how much
they spend per person compared to what we spend. I'll
give you the answer.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I don't know the answer.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
It's death. So we are spending twice as much as
they do. We got eighty five million people uninsured or underinsured.
We got healthcare costs that are soaring, and we remain
the only major country on Earth not to guarantee healthcare
to old people. So all right, so you ask me,
all right, I'm not going to take the Democratic Party
to the left by saying that every American should have healthcare?
(17:03):
Is right, and we should take on degree to the
insurance companies, insurance and drug companies who charge us the
highest prices in the world. So you don't think that
that's too left.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Right, correct, correct, you're correct?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Right, how's your next question? Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah? God?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
All right, average America. This she is representing three hundred
and forty million Americans right in front of you. All right,
here comes the question. We live in a competitive global economy.
Seventy years ago in our great country, if you wanted
to go to a very good college, say in New
York City, Brooklyn College, City College. You want to go
(17:39):
to a great state university in California and in other
states around the country, do you know how much it
costs you to go to those colleges and universities?
Speaker 2 (17:50):
What and what year I'll.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Talk about seventy years ago, in the fifties or.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Something, oh, two thousand dollars a year?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
It depends my brother, who is seven years older than
I am. You know, we lived in a rent controlled
apartment in Brooklyn, New York, and Brooklyn College, which was
and is a very fine college. Back when my brother
went to college, it was tuition free. Okay, family, we
don't have any money, and my family didn't have to
(18:21):
pay or he lived at home. We lived at about
a couple of miles away, so we took him a
half hour to get to college. I'm sure he was
not crazy about living at home, but that's it. He
got a very good college education for free. That was
true in many states, true in Vermont at that time,
California at that time. I don't have to tell you
how much college education costs today, right, right, oh, Katie?
(18:43):
If I say to the American people, he is a
really left wing, revolutionary, communistic idea that we should go
back to where we were, roughly speaking, seventy years ago
and make our public colleges and universities tuition free. Katie
Kurk radical idea, too far left for the American leagle.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I don't think it's too far left, but I think
probably the devils in the details. How do you actually
do that? Right?
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Well, I don't think it's not complicated. Frankly, and by
the way, there's bipartisan support for the understanding that in
my state and all over this country, we don't have
enough skilled craft workers. We don't have enough plumbers, electricians,
sheet metal workers. We brought billions of dollars into Vermont
(19:29):
under Biden to improve our infrastructure. We don't even have
the workers to do the work that we need to do.
That's true all over America. So it's not just higher
education getting a college degree, as important as that is.
It is you want to become an electrician, you want
to become a plumber. So opportunities for men and women
to earn very good salaries if we have the vocational
(19:50):
schools needed to provide that training. All right, So that's
another radical idea.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
All right, okay, okay, I get your point, Bernie, I
get your I don't want to use up all our
interview time you asking me questions.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on the
go between running my media company, hosting my podcast, and
of course covering the news, and I know that to
keep doing what I love, I need to start caring
for what gets me there, my feet. That's why I
decided to try the Good feet stores personalized arch support system.
(20:37):
I met with a Good Feet arch support specialist and
after a personalized fitting, I left the store with my
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My feet, knees, and back are thanking me already. Visit
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or book your own free personalized fitting. So I'd like
(21:08):
to address you with this question. I hear you about
some of these ideas not being that radical at all.
Having said that, looking back at the last couple of elections,
it was not forgive me a Bernie Sanders aligned candidate
that beat Republicans in the House or Senate in swing
(21:31):
states or swing districts. The candidates who won are overwhelmingly
more moderate, as you know. So I guess my question
to you, what evidence do you have that your approach
will actually beat Republican candidates in tough territories.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Well, I have the evidence that in many respects, I'm
not quite in agreement with your analysis.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Okay, tell me why the.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Country we're seeing strong progresses at Alita, Grhalvar and Arizona
just want a landslide victory running as a strong progressive
just last month, and we eagerly await the Speaker of
the House to allow her to take her position, but
she won a very strong victory. Maybe most importantly right
(22:20):
now as you and I speak, are they're going to
be elections in a couple of weeks. And I think
the election the American people are most focused on is
in New York City. And New York City you have
the essence of an establishment candidate and Andrew Cuomo, you know,
former Governor Andrew is the establishment running against Zoron Mumdani,
(22:43):
who is somebody who shares my political views. Now, I
don't know what's going to happen in two weeks, but
the polling seems to suggest that Mumdani is in pretty
good shape, that he's putting together the kind of coalition
that you need to win black white Latino Asians that
he has right now. And this is Katie, when you
talk about Bernie Sanders politics, this is what we're talking about.
(23:07):
He has some eighty thousand volunteers as we speak knocking
on doors in New York City. Guys. Unbelievable, and to
my mind, that is the kind of politics that wins election,
and right now, as you may or may not notice,
when you're looking at Senate candidates around the country, more
and more of them were saying, you know what, I
(23:28):
think it's time to take on the oligocky, stand up
for the working class. And many of them themselves, whether
it is in Michigan, Maine, Nebraska, Texas, elsewhere, all working
class candidates who are prepared to stand up to big money.
So I think the movement is frankly in our direction.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, so you think change is a foot because I
was just going to mention there were four Senate Democratic
candidates who won in Trump states, as you know, Alyssa
slot Kinne Michigan, Tammy Baldwin and Wisconsin, Jackie ro Nevada,
Rubin Diego and Arizona. And all of them were more
moderate Democratic candidates. They moved to the middle and these elections.
(24:10):
Gego on immigration was to the right of his party.
Baldwin ran an ad agreeing with Trump on trade. So
I guess are you saying, Bernie, if I can call
you Bernie, that you think that things have changed considerably
since those elections were held.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I do think things have changed. When we talk about
moderate or moving to the left. You mentioned Tommy Boldlin
talking about trade. Well, you know what you're looking at
a guy who voted against the NAFTA trade agreement with
Mexico and who voted against permanent normal trade relations with China.
So you know, I don't know. Moving to the left,
(24:48):
is those trade agreements were disastered for working class families,
cost US thousands and thousands of factories and millions of
good paying jobs. Is I left or right? You can
tell me, but our trade policy has been or does that?
But again it gets back, be careful I think about
using left or right. What are the issues that you're
campaigning on now if a candidate, And let me give
(25:12):
another example. I don't have to tell you or the
American people what has gone on in Gaza for the
last year or so. We are looking at a situation
where the United States put over twenty two billion dollars
into Neta, Yaho's right wing extremist government, and the result
(25:33):
has been the killing of sixty five thousand people out
of two point two million and the wounding injuring of
one hundred and sixty thousand people ten percent of the
population of Gaza, by the way, mostly women, children, and
the elderly have been killed or wounded with American Aid. Now,
(25:54):
a year ago, Katie, everyone was saying, well, you got
to defend that the Yahoo, you got to defend what
Israeli military is thinking. That has radically changed. And if
you've noticed today, many candidates were running I don't care
whether they are moderate candidates, progressive, conservative, They're saying, you know,
we're not going to support more money going to Natanello,
(26:16):
and we're not going to take money from APEX. So again,
left right, I don't know what it is, but there's
certainly been a change of opinion on that issue.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Let me ask you about that because, as you know,
I mean, first of all, I guess before I even
dig deeper into the mayoral race here in New York City,
do you really think that New York City is the
best example for the rest of the country. In other words,
where goes New York City, there goes the rest of
the country. I think a lot of people might say,
(26:46):
what do you Hie? I mean, New York City is
a very unique place, full of very unique citizens, very liberal,
very diverse, a melting pot. I mean, that's why I
love New York City, where I am right now. People
from all over the world and all over the country
come here. But a lot of people would say, I'm sorry,
(27:08):
New York City is not where we're at politically.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Okay, good question. New York City is not necessarily the
rest of the country. But I would respond to you
into ways. I have been to the rest of the country. Okay,
I've been to Boise, Idaho. I've been to Salt Lake City, Utah.
Those are not that's not New York City type communities.
(27:36):
I have been to maybe one of the most Republican
districts in the entire country, and that is Mingo County,
West Virginia. You know where that is.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
No, I've never been to Mingo County, West Virginia's.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Beautiful anyhow, that district, not New York City. That county
of eighteen thousand people voted for Donald Trump to the
tune of seventy four percent. Okay, pretty trumpish, right right.
I won't there.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I went there, and what did they say.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
The first thing is, you know, we didn't have twenty
thousand people coming out, but we did four hundred people
coming out, and it was one of the greatest meetings,
and we videoed it, you know, as people are struggling
all over America. West Virginia has its own economic problems,
and you hear people, you know, town meetings. So people
got up and said, oh, this is what's going on.
I need to go to a specialist. I got to
(28:27):
go two hours because we don't have any specialists here.
I can't afford healthcare. Young lady gets up there and
you know, talks about you know, her dream to get
decent quality education, which is where West Virginia is not
particularly strong, et cetera, et cetera. Here's my point, Katie,
West Virginia is not New York City, LA. Is not Idaho.
All true, But at the end of the day, every
(28:50):
American needs quality healthcare. At the end of the day,
every parent wants decent childcare and education for their kids.
At the end of the day, all parents want to
be able to afford to give their kids decent quality food,
not junk food. New York City is not Idaho. Yes,
(29:12):
you're right, there are differences of opinion on many issues,
but there is much more commonality of interests in this
country than media and members of Congress perceive. And that's why,
I mean, one of the joys of my life hasn't
been able to go to literally every state in Americans
speak to zillions of people and really sit down with people,
(29:35):
big rallies, but sometimes we sit down and talk to
fifteen people. And at the end of the day, all
of our people, conservatives, progressives, independence, they want a decent
standard of living for their kids, for their parents, and
for themselves, and they're not getting it today.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
You know, in your book, Bernie, you talk about how
one percent of the population has more wealth than the
bottom ninety three percent of the population, And certainly income
inequality is a horrible and divisive issue in this country,
and I think responsible for a lot of our problems.
(30:13):
Having said that, how do you put guardrails on businesses
without bilifying them? Because we need businesses to succeed in
this country. Everyone benefits when a company is successful. You know,
communities benefit, employees benefit. So I guess my question is
how do you find the right balance to reduce income
(30:37):
and equality but not damage businesses so much that they
can't function in a way that is helpful to society good.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I mean, that's I think a legitimate concern, and I
wish I could tell you, Katie that I have a
four point program that would solve and answer you a
question with great city. I don't, but this is what
I do believe. I do believe that we have got
(31:09):
to deal with what I perceive as the kind of
uncontrolled greed that now exists at the very highest echelons
of the business community. And you know, I know sometimes
I got criticized this. I don't think it's quite fair.
I'm not here attacking God. In Vermont. You know, all
of the businesses, virtually all of a small businesses. You
(31:31):
got mom and pop working really hard, you know, and
they have five employees, and you know they're doing a
great job. But they're doing That's true all over this country.
But what we do have to deal with, Katie, is
that you've got people on top who really honestly believe
that they have the right to do anything they want
(31:55):
economically and politically. And they are very religious people. And
their religion, though, is greed is more and more and more,
and we have to deal with that. So are you
hearing me say, you know, I don't think people should
become rich. They're going to be rich people, and that's fine.
You start up a successful business, you make money, great,
(32:15):
good for you and that's great. You hire people, you
come up with new ideas, fantastic, We need you. But
I do think we have got to deal with greed.
I mean, let me turn that question around.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
If I might say, oh, here we go again, there
we go.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
That's Paul, and we determined that you, Katie Kirk, reflect
the views of three hundred and forty million.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Which I I mean, Elon Musk is on his way
to become a trillionaire and you got eighty five million
Americans that can't afford healthcare.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Does that make sense at all? So I think at
the first of all, we have to say, look, you
could start a business, you make money, good, great for it,
They're going to be rich. Great. Do you really need
a trillion dollars? Do you really need five hundred billion
dollars when kids in America can't afford to go to college?
And by the way, when you, as multi billionaires, use
(33:12):
you up political power to fight for tax breaks. I mean,
one of these things about Trump's big, beautiful build that
we're dealing with right now in the government shutdown are
trillion dollars in tax breaks for Musk and his friends
and massive cuts to Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act.
So first point is no, I am not anti business.
(33:32):
You want to start a business, good luck to you,
great do it. But I am anti greed and anti
incredible power on the part of the multi billionaires of
this country. And let me just say something else on business.
You may agree with me, you may not. Right now, Musk, Bezos, Zuckerberg,
(33:55):
Larry Ellison, these are some of the richest guys in
America and they have an enormous impact over the media.
They on a lot of the media. But on top
of that, what they are doing right now as we speak,
is investing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of billions of
dollars into artificial intelligence and robotics.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
You are aware of that, right, yes, of course, yeah,
that's that could be a whole two hour conversation we
could have, but go on, all right, All that I.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Want to say is, and I would say that to
the average person, do you believe that Miss the Musk
and these are the guys and Miss the Musk is
pretty honest about he says he wants Tesla to build
millions of robots. Do you believe that these guys right now,
the richest people in America investing heavily in AI and
robotics are doing that in order to improve the standard
(34:46):
of living and life for the working families of this country.
What do you think, Katie, think that's what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
I would say no. I would say no. And in fact,
why can't Congress put more guardrails and force these companies
to consider the unintended negative consequences of this technology? And
why aren't more people talking about that instead of beating
China to the punch?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Good, good, and again, I think you're right, and I'm
afraid I have to be a little bit repetitious here
and tell you that the reason is if you are
mister Musk or mister Teal or mister Zuckerberg, you don't
want those regulations. And you know what, You've got a
lot of money to spend on your members of Congress
(35:33):
to say, hey, don't regulate us, we will do anything
we want.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
You're also very critical not only of Republicans, but of
the Democratic Party on this issue, aren't you? On whether
we're talking about corporate wealth and billionaires, which you think
Kamala Harris failed to really reach out and appeal to
working class voters, or the failure of members of Congress
(35:58):
and of you know who are Democrats to do something
about this. You're right, and put the guardrails on AI specifically, right.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
I mean, and how you deal with this? Again, this
is really complicated stuff, and I'm not going to tell
you that I have a three second solution to it,
but this I do know. If we do not, in
one way or another, get a handle on this. And
this is not Bernie Sanders talking. This is people who
really understand AI and robotics a lot better than I do.
(36:30):
We are likely likely talking about millions and millions of
American workers losing their jobs. You know, I want to
see manufacturing be rebuilt in America. Trump talks about it
as well, but you know what, it's not going to
mean much to the average American worker if robots are
doing the work. I want to see small businesses flourish
(36:52):
in America, but if the entry level jobs and those
small and medium sized businesses are done by AI and
not kids who are leaving school, not going to mean
much for working people as well. So the fear right now,
not only it's a huge economic issue, and you're right,
it is not being discussed enough now. There are people
different with me. You know, some people say, well, Bernie,
(37:14):
you know there's always been these technological revolutions, new jobs created,
old jobs are lost. No, I don't think so this time.
I really don't. I think you're looking at massive changes
to the economy. But it's not only Katie. When you
deal about deal with hey I have You're talking not
just about economics in America today. I don't, you know.
(37:36):
I'm sure the viewers know this. You know, we got
a lot of serious personal issues, if you like, the
level of mental illness, and COVID only exacerbated that, the
level of loneliness that people are experienced, the loss of community.
There was a time, you know, everybody knew everybody else,
and now people feel isolated. Our kids are struggling. I'll
(37:58):
never forget, you know. I get around Vermont's schools and
I talk to teachers, and these day, Bernie, you know,
I spend half my time not teaching English, a Spanish
and myth. I spent half my time mentoring kids wishing,
you know, with drugs or whatever it may be. So
I've got a lot of emotional problems, and what I
worry about is kids spending their life, and not just
(38:23):
kids online their companions are going to be you know,
some chetbox.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Well, finally we're seeing a movement though. I mean, I'd
interviewed Jonathan Height last week, and we are seeing schools
and parents actually fighting back, schools having phone free days,
not allowing cell phones during school hours. That's happening more
and more. I think Kathy Hochel signed a law about
(38:51):
this here in New York State. So I think we
are seeing a backlash. But I could not agree with
you more about the impact. And I think the loneliness
epidemic is another huge thing that I think has been
accelerated by our addiction to technology. So I agree with
you one thousand percent on all these things.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
I'll tell you something and what I like about these
hour shows, by the way, we can chat. Yeah, Well
that a thirteen second sound bite, right right? All right,
all right, are you ready for another question?
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Oh go ahead, hit me, hit me, Bernie.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yes, it's the last time you're going to bte be
on your show.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Right, No, that's not true. I'm thrilled to have you.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Okay. Pew Research set the Pew.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yes Yes, out of Philadelphia, Yes, very reputable.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
A couple of years ago they did a poll Here's
what the question was, in so many words, American people,
do you think somebody like you, in your situation, middle class,
working class, upper income, whatever you may be, somebody like
you is better off today than they were fifty years ago?
(40:06):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yep?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
What was the answer? No? According to that poll, fifty
eight percent of the American people said no, I think
somebody like me was better off fifty years ago. And
people understood all of the new technology in healthcare that
saves life's cancer treatments that didn't exist fifty years ago,
(40:30):
drugs that save lives didn't exist, computers, cell phones. You know,
people are not unknowledgeable about many of the positive aspects
of modern society, right cell phones. In my view, you know,
an emergency is a good thing. And yet they thought
that life fifty years ago, buy and large was better.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
In fact, my daughter always says, Mom, I wish I'd
grown up like you in the seventies before all this
technology existed. So I'm not surprised to hear that answer.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
But it's an extraordinary when you think about it, Katie,
what does it say all of this technology, all of
this increase in worker productivity, has it made us healthier?
Or happier. Well, maybe not. And then what we got
to do is take a really deep breath and say,
all right, is the function? If you're Elon Musk wide respect,
(41:25):
I disagree with him on everything. It's a hard working guy,
is a brilliant guy. Their goal is efficiency. All right?
In twenty years, we're not going to need Katie Kirk
behind the microphone because you can have some artificial intelligence
person who knows more than you do. It's more articulate.
You know, you're not going to aid a politician like
Bernie Sanders somebody, you know? Is that really where we
(41:47):
want to go? Is efficiency the goal in life? Or
do you want to create a more human society whatever that
may mean. And one of the things when we talk
about why people are feeling less good about today than
they did fifty years ago is it's economic, but it's
(42:09):
also a sense of community where people I think back
then kind of felt more secure. The world wasn't shifting
under their feet. But even in economics, if I can,
let me just give you an example economics in years
fifty two years explosion in worker productivity technology, the average
(42:32):
weekly inflation adjusted for income for working people as lower
today than it was fifty two years ago, massive transfer
of wealth from the bottom ninety percent of the top
one percent. I grew up in New York City in
a rent controled apartment doing just I tried to figure
it out the back of the envelope calculations. You know
(42:54):
what my family paid in rent? We paid eighteen percent
of our income. We didn't have any money, but we
paid eighteen percent. No family in America's pay eighteen percent
of their income right now. My brother, as I mentioned,
went to college tuition free. So despite all of the technology,
we're seeing working families in many respects worse off. And
by the way you pull this thing, people are worried
(43:16):
that the kids will be even worse off than they are.
How many young people can afford to buy a house today?
Our generation, my generation people could buy homes. Working class
people could buy homes at a younger age than is
currently Okay, So all that I'm saying here is we
need a real national discussion about where do we want
to be. Is efficiency the only thing in life? Or
(43:37):
do we want to live happy, productive, meaningful lives. That's
a discussion we're not having.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Hi, everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've
been following me on social media, you know I love
to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of
my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blair, Jake Cohen,
Lighty Hoyke, Alison Roman, and Ininegarten. So I started a
free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips and
(44:09):
kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at katiecurreic dot com slash
good Taste. That's k A t I E C O
U r I C dot com slash good Taste. I
promised your taste buds will be happy you did. I
(44:33):
wanted to ask you about the role of the Democratic
Party in all this. You know, anecdotally, many people are
very concerned and worried about the direction of the country
and this massive executive overreach that we're seeing in so
many different areas of American life, and they're desperately looking
(44:54):
for an alternative. Obviously, you and AOC are striking a
chord when you go out on this national tour, but
many people are very frustrated with the Democratic Party. They
use words like feckless and ineffectual and rudderless. And I'm
curious if you could share what you think is wrong
(45:18):
with the Democratic Party, and I know you've been very
critical and not only what's wrong with it, but how
to make it right.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I think the Democratic Party is pulling out with the
lowest that has pulled decades. And I think, look again,
I don't care what your politics. Maybe, I'm sure we
have people like President Trump watching us. Everybody knows the
country is in trouble, in deep trouble. And my view,
(45:45):
Trump is making a very bad situation much worse. And
I think what people are saying is give us an understanding.
Why are things happening the way they are and what
are you going to do about it? Now? In my view,
Donald Trump is a demogogue and he does what demogogues
(46:09):
historically and all over the world today are doing. And
what demogogues are is are people who recognize that there
are serious problems facing the country. And Trump does. But
then what you do is you blame a powerless minority
for all of the problems. So in Germany in the
(46:30):
twenties and the thirties, it was the Jews who caused
all of the mass of economic problems facing the German people.
It was gypsies, it was gay people, in America, We've
always had, you know, the black community to blame for
all of our problems. Gaze, and today what Trump is
focusing on is on undocumented people. You can't afford housing,
(46:50):
it's undocumented, can't afford healthcare, it's the undocumented. Climate change
is sweeping the world. It's clearly the undocumented. Your kid's
not got any good education, the undocumented. That's what demogogues do.
You take a powerless minority and you blame them rather
than address the real issues. And to me, the failure
of the Democratic Party has been an unwillingness to recognize
(47:14):
the real issues. And that, by the way, is what
this book is about. The real issues are that we
are increasingly living in an oligarchic society. We're a handful
of billionaires who are incredibly greedy. These are not nice guys,
want it all and they control to a large degree,
(47:34):
both the Republican and Democratic Party. And what Democratics and
Mamdani and New York is beginning to do, this is
unprepared to take on the alogogus. You want to spend
all your money against me, go for it. I have
working class support, I have volunteers all over this country
and we're going to beat you. And to my mind,
that is exactly politically what we have got to do.
And economically we need a program that the Democrats also
(47:57):
don't have. Again, we mentioned we discussed them ago, whether
healthcare is a human right. I have I think fifteen
or sixteen Democrats out of forty seven in the Democratic
Caucus on Medicare for Roule. All I'm asking is to do,
in one way or another, what every other major country
has done. I got one third of the Democrats. That's
not where the American people are. American people are not
(48:18):
where the Democratic leadership is. On netting, Yahoo and what
is the terrible things that happen in Gaza. They're not
where the Democrats are. Not where they are on education,
They're not where they are demanding that the wealthy start
paying their fair share of taxes. So you ask me
why the Democratic leadership is struggling, and I think it's
largely that they are too much beholden to wealthy corporate
(48:41):
interests and not paying attention to the needs of the
vast majority of the people who are struggling working class people.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
I don't want to necessarily get into a full blown
discussion of Israel and Gaza. And I understand your point
about so many people and innocent civilians dying in Gaza,
but I also think it's important, is it not to
recognize that we just mark the to your anniversary of
(49:08):
October seventh, where was the biggest tragedy, the deadliest day
for the Jewish people since the Holocaust, and Zoram Mam
Donnie put out a statement that failed to condemn Hamas
on October eighth, before any military action had taken place
(49:29):
from Israel. And I think that's why many Jews in
New York City, just getting back as a microcosm of
kind of national conversations, feel uncomfortable or even fearful of
Zoram Mom Donnie. So you're Jewish, Bernie, right, I mean?
And so I know you mentioned Gaza twice, and I
(49:51):
hear what you're saying and understand very well how public
opinion has changed, But your failure to even mention October
seventh seems odd to me.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
No, it's not a failure if you check everything that I've.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Written, well, at least during our conversation here.
Speaker 1 (50:08):
So let me be clear, Kamas is a terrorist organization,
which I hope does not exist in the future. Camas
committed a disgusting war crime, attacked Israel, killed twelve hundred
innocent men, women and children, a lot of young people,
took hundreds of hostages, barbaric. The people who orchestrated that
(50:34):
disgusting attack are war criminals. Period. I have condemned from
day one that disgusting attack against Israel, period. And furthermore, Katie,
in my view, Israel had like any other country on Earth,
if somebody a terrorist attack takes place, you have the
(50:55):
right to respond. Israel had the right to respond and
to go after Kamas. Period. I've said that from day one.
But what I have also said is it is one
thing to go after Hamas. It is another thing to
go to war against the entire Palestinian people and end
(51:16):
up killing or injuring ten percent of the population. If
that same equivalent number applied to America, that would mean
thirty three million Americans would have been killed or wounded. Okay,
Israel did not have the right to destroy virtually every
healthcare facility and hospital, and school and university and water
(51:37):
system and housing. Almost all of the housing in Gaza
has been destroyed. So, Katie, Hamas is a disgusting terrorist organization,
and I want to see the Palestinian people be able
to evolve into a democratic society without a terrible group
like Hamas. But on the other hand, the leaders of
Kamas who engineered that attack are war criminals. D'ataignelle who
(52:01):
as of two weeks ago was starving, starving to death
the children, Polsinian children, and Gause he's also a Wokoman.
Speaker 2 (52:09):
Thank you for responding to that. I want to spend
the last few minutes if I could, asking questions that
my followers wanted me to ask you, because one of
the great things about this kind of journalism it's very
interactive and you can can basically give voice to people
who don't have an opportunity to sit with you, Bernie
(52:29):
for an hour and have a conversation. Here's one. What
do you think Trump is truly saying to Congress to
keep them in line? Is he threatening them with physical violence?
Look what happened to the judge who's vacation home was
bomb when she made a decision against Trump. He's come
to meet with Congress many time, one was just recently.
(52:50):
I guess the question is why are so many Republicans
failing to speak out against someone you consider an oligarch.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Oligogue and a demagogue. Thank you listener for asking that question.
When I talk about what I worry about in America today,
maybe I'm just an old fashioned conservative. I don't know.
I kind of believe in democracy, and that is that
I was elected to represent the people of Vermont, and
(53:23):
ninety nine other Senators were elected to represent the people
in their states. But what I see happening in the
Republican Party and it pains me because, let me be
very clear, I know many of these Republicans and I
disagree with them. They are often quite conservative men and women.
I don't think they evil people. I don't think they
(53:43):
are fascists. I don't think they believe in violence. But
what I do believe is they are very much intimidated
by Trump and the oligogus behind them. I will give
you just two examples. Many months ago, Democrats and Republicans
worked on what was called a continuing resolution to fund
(54:06):
the government, and they argued for months on healthcare and
everything else. Finally they reached a compromise. And I had
worked on that bill a lot of healthcare provisions in there.
I worked on literally they were going to vote on
it in the House of Representative. I don't know if
you remember this, Yes, Elon Musk sent out a tweet,
(54:27):
and in his tweet he lied. He said, oh, this,
this legislation will increase salaries some members of Congress by
forty percent total. Lie et cetera, et cetera. And I
literally a day or so before the vote, Republicans said,
oh my god, Elon Musk is going to run against us.
He's going to fund candidates against us. We can't support it.
(54:47):
That agreement fell through, which, by the way, leads us
to where we are in the shutdown today, many many
months later. Another example, conservative Republican guy named Tom Tillis.
I don't know if you know Tom.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
Yes, yes, I actually he heard you talking about Tom
Tillis on CNN the other night. But go ahead, for
those people who might have missed that town hall, tell
us what happened. Tell us what happened to Tom Tillis.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
Tell us is for North carol conservative Republican guy reads
the legislation, the big, big, beautiful bill. This is going
to be a disaster for North Carolina. People are going
to lose their healthcare. Of course, they're gonna stark camp
voteford in one day, Trump and the whole right wing
apparatus go after this guy. Billionaires say we're going to
primary you. You're out of here. Guy says, all right, fine,
(55:33):
our surrender. I'm not running for reelection. Very few Republicans
right now in the House or the Senate have the
courage to say, you know what, Donald Trump, you're acting unconstitutionally.
You're acting illegally, You're moving this country toward authoritarianism. Your
healthcare proposals are a disaster. More than a few understand that.
(55:54):
But because of the power of the moneyed interest who
will primary them if they stand up the Trump, they're silent,
and that concerns me very much.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
So they care more about power than their conscience.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
They understand that if they stand up and do the
right thing, they're going to have a hard time getting reelected. Now,
by the way, there are some who have said, you
know what, I don't give it THEMN I'm going to
represent my district, but they are few and far far between.
Speaker 2 (56:21):
In closing, Bernie, because you've been so generous with your time,
the government shutdown is continuing. Democrats are holding firm Republicans
are holding firm. Each side I think believes they're winning
the pr battle, if you will. How is this going
to end? When is it going to end?
Speaker 1 (56:42):
I hope it ends tomorrow. I hope it ends as
soon as possible, because nobody wants to see hard working
federal employees not get a paycheck or get fired or
get fired all. Butitrarily absolutely by Trump, which is by
the way, illegal. But look out has not been something
that the Trump administration worries much about. But this is
(57:04):
what I think, Katie, this is my own view. I'll
just tell you, you know, literally yesterday in Vermont, you know,
people are beating to receive their notices from the insurance companies,
asn't I you know, I just mentioned I've been talking
about the last couple of days. People are saying not
only a doubling in their premiums, not only are tripling,
(57:25):
in some cases are quadrupling of their premiums. In southern Vermont,
there are folks who are going to be paying fifty
percent of their middle class incomes on healthcare. That is
not only unconscionable, it's unsustainable. Nobody could do that. And
I think all over the country people are beginning to
get notices from their insurance companies about skyrocketing healthcare costs.
(57:50):
And I think Republicans will talk about everything. Just the
other day, Trump attacked me and on and on and
on forgot to mention one word, two words healthcare. They
don't want to talk about healthcare. But the American people
are catching on that we cannot see huge increases in
our healthcare premiums. We cannot see fifteen million people thrown
off of healthcare. In my view, and you know I
(58:12):
do study these things a little bit. We have a
broken system right now before Trump, they are taking us
over the edge and we may see our healthcare system
literally collapse.
Speaker 2 (58:22):
Do you think Republicans are going to budge or Democrats
are going to blink?
Speaker 1 (58:27):
I think Republicans when they go home to their districts,
they're going to hear from people say, you cannot vote
to double a triple my healthcare premiums. I can't afford it,
don't do it. And I think an agreement will be
reached on that basis.
Speaker 2 (58:39):
Senator Bernie Sanders, honestly, I could talk to you for
two more hours. There's so many questions I didn't get
to about what's happening with young men in this country.
I wanted to talk to you more about Zarah mom, Donnie,
but I questions for you. I know, I'm sure you
add more questions for me. But really it's great to
(59:01):
see you. I really really appreciate your time. And for
those who are interested. Your book. It's a small book.
You can carry it in your purse, almost in your pocket,
not quite called Fight Oligarchy by Bernie Sanders, and on
the back it says, Oligarchy is a system in which
a small number of extremely wealthy individuals control the economic, political,
(59:25):
and media life of a nation. It is a system
in which ordinary people have very little power to determine
the future of their country. If you're an American, it
is the system in which you're living that must change.
And the wealthiest nation on earth, we must build a
political movement that creates a government that represents all Americans,
(59:47):
not just a handful of billionaires. That's a bit of
what you'll read about in this book, in a lot
more detail. Again, Bernie Sanders, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (59:57):
Thank you very much, Kitty, good to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would
love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
of iHeartMedia and Katiekuric Media. The executive producers are Me,
(01:00:24):
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit
(01:00:46):
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi everyone, it's
Katie Couric. You know I'm always on the go between
(01:01:06):
running my media company, hosting my podcast, and of course
covering the news. And I know that to keep doing
what I love, I need to start caring for what
gets me there, my feet. That's why I decided to
try the Good Feet stores personalized arch support system. I
met with a Good Feet arch support specialist and after
(01:01:27):
a personalized fitting, I left the store with my three
step system designed to improve comfort, balance and support. My feet, knees,
and back are thanking me already. Visit goodfeet dot com
to learn more, find the nearest store, or book your
own free personalized fitting.
Host
Katie Couric
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