October 11, 2022 • 44 mins
Geena Davis has been a face we have come to know on screen for 40 years. And despite being in the public eye for so long, Geena is one of those actors who has cleverly obscured herself and her personal life behind the scenes. But now, she’s putting her whole self out there with a memoir called Dying of Politeness. On this episode of Next Question with Katie Couric, Katie and Geena talk about her “throwback” childhood, girlhood trauma, and some of her most iconic roles. They talk about the feminist thread that has shaped Geena’s career, the inescapable misogyny of Hollywood, and how she carved her own professional path in the second phase of life.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic, and this is next question.
I love when the people we've gotten to know over
the years on the big and small screen come out
with a memoir. And I'm not just saying that because
I did the same last year. Going There now available
in paperback. No, I'm talking about people we feel like
(00:20):
we know but don't really know, you know, like the
actor and activist Gina Davis. Gina is someone I have
interviewed over the years and admired, both in her diverse
movie roles and for the incredible activists and leadership she's
taken on fighting for gender equity in Hollywood. But Gina
is one of those clever stars that hasn't revealed all
(00:43):
that much of herself until now. I never have been
in this position of having written something and people gonna
read about me and you know, what did I say
touch or something. Let's talk about the title of Dying
of Politeness, because you tell a story in the book
(01:03):
which kind of in a weird way, set you out
on this path of kind of I guess squashing your
emotions in some ways. Tell that story. You were just
what three years old and you were in church? Oh yeah, No,
I was a baby. Um and I don't personally remember,
but I was told about it relentlessly. I was sending
(01:24):
my mom's lap in church, and I was a baby
and obviously able to sit up at this point, and
I was moving around, of course like babies. Well, and
somehow orther, I lurched forward and I clocked my head
on the pew in front, and it made a huge crack,
and minister stopped speaking and everybody paused to see, you know,
his bloody murder going to be screamed now. And uh,
(01:47):
and my mom said she loved to tell the story.
My mom said she she clushed me and said, and
she didn't say that was the proudest things you could
think of, and love to be tell them about that.
And uh, it was only late and I heard it
(02:08):
so many times, But only there you realized is that
a good thing? I mean, you know, I was able
to know that I had to not show my feelings,
my real feelings, at a very very early age. You
know that, don't don't be troubled to anybody. Don't make
(02:28):
it noise. You were basically being praised for repressing your emotions,
even if that meant pain. And I'm wondering how that
manifested itself in your life from that moment on. In
other words, you know, kids should be seen and not heard,
and especially for girls to be expressive or to talk
(02:50):
openly about things. Was that really discouraged in your home
growing up? Well, I'll tell you it wasn't about being
a girl, because my father actually treated me unusually I
think maybe for the time, and and uh beautifully. You know,
he he encouraged my confidence from the very beginning. And
(03:13):
you know, if he was going to shingle the roof,
I was too. And you described your childhood as sort
of like a little house on the prairie. Yes, without
the pinafores or the prairie, but but it was, you know,
it was like a throwback to another another century. We
always had kerosene lanterns ready, for example. But but it
(03:33):
wasn't about being a girl. It was about being um
self effacing. I don't need anything, I don't want anything,
to be incredibly incredibly polite, not to have anyone have
to put anything out for you. And so it was
to the point where if someone was trying to hand
me a candy, it was no trouble. They already were
(03:56):
headed in their hand. I had to say no, no, no,
thank you, I'm not um because it was not polite
to actually want something or need something. So that was
the message, so to not express your needs basically um
and and I guess I got mixed up with the
church story. It was when you were three years old
that you decided, in fact, in fact announced you were
(04:20):
going to be an actress. Yes, I announced to my
parents that that was going to be my job. I
don't even know how I knew people had jobs and
three years old or and I certainly hadn't been to
the movies unless they took us to some animated Disney
movie or something. But that's what I said, I'm going
to be. I must have seen some you know, I
(04:40):
know I watched television. U photos of me watching watching television.
But I somehow perceived that people were pretending to do
things and I wanted to do that. And and obviously
you had to have a lot of confidence, and that
expressed your needs. So your parents did give you conf
it ends. So what what's the difference of expressing your
(05:04):
wants versus expressing your ambition? Well, you know, something you
just said made me think, uh uh, maybe some wow.
I had figured out or unconsciously realized that if I
was a character, the character wouldn't have to repress her feelings.
(05:26):
I can't. We need psychologists it up. But uh, but
the thing is, I knew I wanted to be on film.
I didn't want to be in theater like I didn't.
There was nothing about me the craved people looking at me.
I'm sure that I craved approval, you know, as big,
(05:48):
big as approval as I could possibly get. But um,
I think it was the opportunity to be to try
on different, for alms, to be somebody else, to be
somebody who's not quiet and shy. And you know your
childhood was really idyllic. But you do write about a neighbor, Mr. Teller,
(06:10):
who who molested you, basically Gina, which made me think, gosh,
it's just so commonplace, um for this to happen. And
it was a really interesting story because he went from
sort of hugging you to touching you and appropriately to
(06:31):
the point you kind of ex basically showed your mom
what he was doing. Um And and I'm curious to
know sort of for you to explain what her reaction
was to that, right, right, Well, The thing is, I
was ten, and I didn't know I've never heard the
(06:53):
term privates. I didn't even know there was anything between
my legs that meant a thing that was significant. And
so when he started touching me there, I didn't think
anything about I mean, I didn't think there was This
is terribly wrong. This shouldn't be happening. I know, you know,
nobody should be touching that area. And so when I
(07:15):
told my mom about it, I just showed her on
her what he was doing to me. She went through
the ceiling and sailed down the middle of the road
to this house. I came out to the sidewalk and
watched her disappear into his h his house, and then
when she came back, she said, um, you're never to
(07:37):
bring the paper inside his house again. You leave it
down at the bottom of the stairs. Okay, But but
I didn't say, because what happened was not your fault
or or whatever. Um, So then I knew there's there
are horrible secrets in the world that you're just just
(07:59):
kind of stumble on and not know what they are,
and it could be you doing something really wrong, you know.
But god, I just didn't know, And what did you
think about your mom's reaction and what would you have
done if this had happened to your daughter? Well, right,
I mean right, Um, I think my mom had a
(08:21):
great reaction. She uh, you know, she was very angry.
She flew up the streets. She come fronted him, immediately
told him what's what, this is, what's going to happen?
And that always great. Um, you know, I probably wish
that she would have explained to me what happened to
why that was wrong, or what I should do in
the future, or you know, tell me immediately if anybody
(08:42):
touches x Y is he uh and all that. But
but but yeah, I would have got the police involved,
and you know, immediately and uh and what is just
a different time though, I was gonna say, I think
our our vocabulary and or understand ending of these situations
(09:02):
just they weren't fully formed back then. I remember my
sister walking up the street and some man called her
over to the car and I think she was twelve,
and exposed himself to her. And I think, you know,
I don't think my mom. My mom was really upset
(09:23):
about it. I think I don't think she called the police,
but I think, you know, it was sort of just
like there are a lot of perverts out there, and
people weren't necessarily held to account when they behaved a
certain way as they are now. Yeah, do you remember
if your mom said don't approach a car if they
(09:45):
call you over or anything like that. Oh, yeah she did,
she said, Yeah, I think she did. And don't talk
to strangers and all that stuff. Now we always do
that now, you know, to start from the beginning. Nobody
touch you if you don't want them to, and all
that stuff. So it's it's very different. You grew up
(10:07):
in whereham am I pronouncing it correctly, Massachusetts, and then
after college you decided that you were going to New
York to pursue a modeling career. And and obviously you're
very tall, how taller Eugena six feet? So did you
you really saw modeling as a vehicle to get into
(10:31):
the movie business or to become an actress? Right? Well, yes,
this was my scheme because I knew this. I was
in I was a theater major, and and most everybody
wanted to do theater, but I knew I wanted to
do films or TV or something like that, be on screen.
(10:51):
But nobody ever I've never asked anybody. Nobody ever said,
you know, if you want to do that, you should
actually go to l A instead. Everybody's going to New York.
So I went with them and and then I'm like,
how am I going to get uh? In movies? But
I planned this actually when I was still in college
that I saw that Christie Brinkley and Lauren Hutton's mother,
(11:12):
you know, supermodels were getting cast in movies, and I thought, Okay,
so the way I'll do this is I will become
a model and then they'll just hire me, because obviously
I thought it's so much easier to become a super
bottle at an actor. So but it actually worked out,
(11:32):
but actually worked out. We'll talk about how he made
the leap right right, and and I never became a
super bottle. By the way, I was only on the
cover of New Jersey Monthly, so I didn't take off
in that way. But they were casting TUTSI in New York,
shooting in New York, and had the idea, let's call
(11:53):
model agencies to see if they have any models who
can also act, because it called for the character to
be physically attractive, Let's say uh and uh and so
they said, yeah, yeah, we have one and sent me
for the audition and it was just a you know,
casting assistant with a video camera and some you know
(12:14):
office and uh and they said, where a bathing suit
under your clothes? Because if your audition, well, they're gonna
want to see your you in a bathing suit, and
because the character called for being in her underwear at
certain points of the movie. So so I went to
the audition, I read for it. She didn't say, let's
see you in your bathing suit. So I just completely
(12:34):
forgot and one of the odds I'm going to get
it cast in a movie with us, and happened as
my first I just said, you know so, So I
forgot all about it, and I was going to Paris
to do the uh collections the runway shows for the
first time. I was all excited about that. And I
was there and evidently sending Pollock the director saw my
(12:55):
video and said, hey, I like her. Where's her beating suit?
We forgot to get any pictures of her anyway, Well
get her back, No, she's in Europe. Well did they
have it? Does her agent have any pictures of her
in a bathing suit? And fortunately I had been in
a victorious secret catalog, said hot Dog. They said those
(13:18):
photos over where you know, wind blown air brush, perfectly lit,
you know, instead of standing in a sad midtown office. Yeah. Anyway,
I got the part, which is pretty amazing. I mean,
what was that experience like? Working with with Dustin Hoffman
and Jessica Lang and just that incredible cast and also
(13:41):
m who did who did I love? Also in that
movie who has ms? She's blonde? Terry gar who was
such such a great comedic actress. So I mean, did
you were you pinching yourself being with all these people? Oh?
I really well, I couldn't believe it, although I sort
(14:03):
of did believe it because it's what I thought was
gonna happen. So it's very it was a very strange time.
But um, and Cindy Pollock and it was incredible director,
you know, for my first job, you know, you couldn't
ask for anything better. I would have done anything, um,
but um, yeah, it was amazing, amazing, amazing, And the
(14:26):
funny thing about it was, you know, it's my first
I've never been on movie. Said I didn't know anything,
but I was too embarrassed about that to ask anybody
anything about how things go on a movie set. So
I didn't know. I didn't ever ask anything, and people
didn't tell me things either. They didn't volunteer, for example,
(14:49):
that you only come on the days when you're in
a scene. So I assumed everybody was going to come
every day all day. So I did it. And then
what would ever said, by the way, you know, you
don't have to be here? Yeah, nobody ever said anything
about it. Um, every day, I got my chair and
(15:11):
put it right next to Sydney Pollock and sat next
to him all day. And it never heard of me that, wait,
the other actors are sitting over there, and probably I
shouldn't be bothering the director while we're shooting. But but
he let you sit next to him and watched him work,
which must have been invaluable, invaluable, and he never said
(15:33):
a thing. He called me sunshine, and UM was very
respectful from the beginning, very respectful. And so you know,
I had this incredible experience that I never would have
if I'd asked a question. Here and there you write
about the fact that that Dustin Hoffman gave you some
good advice about how to deal with lecherous men on
(15:57):
the set and what did he tell you? So all
day long he was giving me advice because he was
sure that I was going to have this career and uh,
and so one time he said, now, uh, never sleep
with your co star. By the way, you should never
do that. It's just my message things up, don't do it.
So here's what you say. If your co star propositions you,
(16:19):
you say, oh, thank you, You're very attractive. I would
love to, but I don't want to ruin the sexual
tension between us. And uh, I was like, okay, So
I squirrel that away and he used it later with
Jack Nicholson. What happened Jack Nicholson. It's too long to
explain why this happened. But Jack Nicholson called me, um
(16:44):
and uh after putsy and said, and you know I
had got this message called back Jack Nicholson, Oh my god, incredible.
So Mr Nicholson, hello, this is you know, Davis's the
model and uh is it a gena? Is it gonna happen?
And I, oh my god, but I instantly knew, well,
(17:06):
first of all, I should have you know, what is
it going to be about? It's gonna be about that.
But I said, I know what to say. Oh my god,
for once in my life, I know exactly what to say.
And I said, well, Mr Nicholson, jack Um, I have
a feeling and we are gonna be working together someday,
and I would hate to have ruined the sexual tension
(17:28):
between us. What did he say? He said, Oh, man,
who told you to say that? Because he's just someone
knew that someone had told me to say that. But
it got me out of the out of the situation.
When we come back, Delma, Louise and a life changing
friendship with Susan Surrandon. You obviously have been in some
(18:04):
iconic films. A League of their Own is a close second,
but the most iconic one is obviously Thelm and Louise.
Tell me a little bit about that experience and that
moment in time, Gina, because I really see your life
and career juxtaposed against sort of the feminist movement writ large.
And I'm curious why that movie made such a huge
(18:28):
impression on the national psyche if you will, well, you
know the reaction when it came up Eastern None of
us predicted h that it was even going to be
seen or successful. You know, it seems like a small
budget movie and maybe people won't like the ending or something.
But it exploded on the scene, you know, a cover
(18:49):
of Time magazine almost instantly, and and all that, and uh,
and the heading was on the title on the cover
of the magazine was why Thelma and Louise strikes and
herv um, not why people like it or And there
were two negative essays in that issue about how this
(19:10):
was a horrible development because we're showing that women have
to resort to violence and whatever. The big thing that
I noticed was the difference in if people recognized me
once the movie came out, because I was used to
people say, oh, I like the Flyer, I like beetles
or whatever, and being you know, very nice, and that's
all they needed was to tell me that. And and
(19:31):
suddenly people were saying, Oh my god, I have to
tell you what this movie meant to me. This changed
my life. This is how many times I saw it,
this is who I saw it with, And you know,
they really wanted to share with me how important experience was.
And I realized that in a profound way, that we
give women so few opportunities to come out of a
(19:54):
movie feeling inspired and empowered by the female characters. Where
are you going? We've been seeing you all over It's like,
why don't you take off those shades? I want to
see your eyes. Yeah, we think you have really bad manners.
(20:16):
Where did you get off behaen like that with women
you didn't even know? Huh? How do you feel somebody
that's your mother or your sister or your wife? Huh
what are you talking about? You know? Good? Damn well
when I'm topping bath, I mean, really, that business with
(20:37):
your tongue, what is that? That is disgusting? Oh my god?
That But it really did stricken earth. There was definitely
a segment of the population who thought it was a
very bad thing. Um and uh. Actually, Entertainment Weekly made
a chart. They thought that was funny, you know that
people were saying it's so violent, And they made a
(20:58):
chart comparing Fema Louise and lethal weapons. So just just
just just just looking to too violent movies and compare
it was like the fem Louise number bill is fire
or something like seven. Uh. For they said, well, it's
approximately fifty, but you can't really single out machine gun bullets.
(21:21):
It's successfully and and I mean it was just the
carnage deaths three including themselves, you know, so anyway, it's
just you know, I think that it did have these
incredibly strong female leads, and you and Susan Surranton and
talk about women with eight finding themselves and claiming agency, right,
(21:48):
And I think it was such a powerful message for
for women everywhere that you were taking control of your
your destiny basically to the very end um. And you
also became lifelong friends with Susan Sarandon, who was sort
of the total antithesis of dying of politeness. And what
(22:13):
did you learn from watching Susan and the way she
moved in the world that you kind of absorbed and
took with Eugena. Yeah, you know, I think she affected
my life. It changed my life more than anyone else has.
And uh, and it was it was watching her the
way she moved through the world. I mean it was
(22:34):
from you know, a few minutes into having met her. Uh,
I knew what she was. I saw what she was like,
and I was like, how have I never been exposed
to a woman who who lives like this, who doesn't
start everything she says with I don't know what you'll think,
This is probably a bad idea, but what would you
(22:54):
think if, I mean, if you don't like, if we
don't have to you know, it's the only way. It
was the only way I exist. It was like that.
And uh, we were going through the script right the
first time I met her with Ridley Scott, and I
swear it was like on page one that she said, Um,
you know my first line here, I think we should
just cut it. And I was like, well, but that's
(23:18):
how we're starting. Uh. And I looked at Ridley and
he was like, yeah, sure, I not No, we don't
need that. And uh it sounds crazy, but you know,
I could never experienced a woman who talks like that
North scene a reaction like Ridley's where he doesn't I think, Hey,
(23:39):
how dare you just say things? Did you find that
empowering for yourself when it came to your your work
and your future roles, that you could use your voice
and you didn't have to be so polite. Yeah, it
really really impacted my life tremendously. Now I can't say
(23:59):
I just jumped to that is I'm gonna be that um,
but I feel like the goal of my life became
to be able to react to something or behave in
the way I really wanted to, in the way I
(24:20):
really felt, instead of massaging everything into what will the
other person think? Or can I get away with this?
Or how can I twist this around to be unobjectionable?
You know. So that's that's like became my life school,
and that's what I'm I'm still working on getting much
(24:42):
much better thanks to thanks to that early education. After
the break, how Gina took control of her career after forty.
(25:03):
I have to ask you about when your career stalled,
and it was sort of you were forty years old,
and gosh, I think it would be so hard to
be an actor Gina and just worry all the time
and are you in or you out? Are you up?
Are you down? What's next? You know what's in the future.
And I'm curious if that period of your life was
(25:26):
difficult to to process and also to deal with. Right Well, yes,
I mean I had heard about this phenomenon that supposedly
happened that when you get to forty for women, the
jobs start to fall away. But first of all, I thought,
Meryl Streep, Jessica Lang and those people are going to
(25:48):
fix it before I got to forty, and failing that, yeah,
I would be the exception. And uh and but then
it turned out that I was profoundly not the exception.
And you know, I point out in the book that
it pretty much happens, happened to all my peers, and
it just happens to everybody mostly. It really is a
(26:08):
true phenomenon that happens. And uh, so I was. I
was shocked by that. And I had always taken time two.
I was very picky always about what I wanted to
say yes to, and partly because I had played such
incredible rules. So I was happy to wait a year
until the next good thing came along. But to suddenly
(26:30):
have to wait a year, two years, three years for
the next good thing to come along was stunning. Do
you think that that is still the case in Hollywood, Gina,
or do you think, um, have you seen that situation
improve at all? No? No, I haven't. Um. In fact,
some of our research at my institute showed that uh
(26:54):
of characters and films are fifty or over and on
that only five of characters fifty and over are women.
So it's happening. It's full on still there. So Meryl,
Meryl Streep and actresses like that are clearly the exception,
(27:16):
not the rule, right, right, right. I talked to when
I was first starting my institute, someone recommended that I
speak to a media personality and uh, talk, tell her
about it and maybe she'll want to cover it, and
uh and I and so I got in touch with
her and I explained that, um, that there were far
(27:39):
fewer female characters were right then I was analyzing television
shows and movies made for kids, and I said, there's
far fewer female characters in movies made for kids. And
she said, no, no, no, that's so true. There's Meryl
Streep works all the time. And I was like, she
and kids TV? And plus, what does that have to
(28:00):
do with anything I'm talking about data? But anyway, yeah,
it was. It was pretty shocking all that. And you
did start the institute, but before you did that, in
your forties, that's when you decided you wanted to have
children and you became you got into archery and almost
made the Olympic team, right, I mean, where did that
(28:23):
come from? Uh? You know, Um, it happened that I
had had to learn some skills that I didn't have
in real life for movies, Like the first one was
learning baseball for leading their own and that's when I
found out for the first time at thirty five, that
I was physically coordinated and athletic actually, and was so
(28:44):
stunning that um, it really changed the way I thought
about myself and my body. And then you know, Controt Island,
I'm learning sword fighting, and then the Longest Good Night,
I'm learning taekwondo and ice skating and all this other stuff.
And so then I decided I wanted to see if
I could take up a sport in real life and
(29:06):
do well at it, not just a movie version of
whatever it was. And saw archery on TV and I thought, oh,
it's so beautiful. I wonder if I could be good
at that. And I take everything too far, so you know,
I became obsessed and uh. And then I made it
to the Olympic trials two and a half years later,
(29:29):
and that's unbelievable. But getting back to this disappointment at
rolls drying up when you were forty really ignited this
curiosity in you about women and how they're portrayed in media.
And I remember it was watching cartoons with your daughter.
(29:49):
I believe that spurred you on to want to change things.
Can you tell that story. Yes it was, Yes, it
wasn't Roles drying up at all. Really that um spurred
me onto one to create a research institute. It was
my daughter when she was a toddler. I decided, Hey,
let's I'll show us some preschool shows. You know, great idea,
(30:13):
that'll be fun. And I ever sitting on my lap,
and the very first thing we watched, within five minutes
or ten minutes, I was like, how many how many
female characters are on this show? And it was one
and with lots of other male characters, and I thought,
wait a minute. And then I saw it everywhere in
movies and TV and videos and everything for kids, and
(30:36):
but seeing it through her eyes made me realize, wait
a minute, we are teaching kids to have gender bias
from minute one, like showing them imbalanced worlds where boys
are more plentiful and do most of the interesting things.
And uh, and there's one girl, you know usually And
so I didn't intend to take it to the extremes
(30:59):
that I uh, but I couldn't find anybody in Hollywood
who noticed what I noticed. Every single person I talked
to said, that's not true anymore. No, that's that's that's
been fixed, and Meryl Street is still working. Yeah, yeah, no,
seriously working. And also they would name a movie with
one female character as proof that gender inequality have been fixed.
(31:23):
So I thought, okay, so this is completely unconscious, and
if I get the data, I could take it directly
to them, because I kind of could get meetings with
people and tell them something they don't know. And because
they make stuff for kids and they must love kids,
(31:43):
so this could actually change things, and it happens, it worked.
I mean, I am so impressed by your commitment to
this GENA because this wasn't something that you sort of
dabbled in. I mean, you have been focused on this
for a very long time, and you have taken a
very research oriented approach, a very data driven approach, by
(32:07):
working with USC and by really providing the information and
the evidence of gender bias, so executives and people couldn't
couldn't really come up with an excuse for why they
were doing certain things. Just give our listeners a bit
of insight into some of the things you did and
(32:29):
have done in terms of showing how few speaking parts
there are for women, how few women centric roles there are,
and you just kind of tell us briefly some of
the work you did and some of the changes that
were implemented because of your work, right right, Well, part
(32:50):
of my approach to this from the beginning was I'm
going to go privately because this is unconscious. There's no
point in busting them. You didn't want to aim anyone,
and there's no reason to get the public involved even
you know. I mean the other way to go might
have been educate the populace and have them demand whatever.
But I thought, I know, I can go in private
(33:11):
to them and just like nobody even has to know
that I'm doing it. So the research from the beginning
boys numbers and quantity and quality. Uh So, we always
looked at the occupations, the aspirations and those kinds of
things of the characters, and we also looked at um
(33:31):
from the beginning, looked at people of color as well,
and presented it to them. And people sometimes asked me,
you know, did anybody have resistance? And uh and never were.
Always people were so shocked because they were so sure
they were doing right by girls. They're so shocked and
want to do better and have I mean, we've made
(33:52):
tremendous strides, but now we have we have six categories
under representation that we that we look at women and
people of color, and people over fifty, people with large
body types, people with disabilities l G, B, t Q,
A, A A, and uh. So we look at all of
it as well as what are their occupations, where their
(34:13):
goals were aspirations, so we can get a very complete
picture to people when they when they want to know,
you know about their project and how have you affected change?
Because I want you to brag for a minute about
how this behind the scenes kind of quiet work you've
done has really made a difference. And what I always
(34:35):
admire about Eugena is you did this before it was
kind of I don't want to say cool, but before
more people, uh we're kind of jumping into this, and
I want to say jumping on the bandwagon because it's
such an important bandwagon to jump on. But before people
were really interested in these issues, you were in there
(34:57):
fighting the good fight and you did make some progress,
I mean significant progress. So Brad for a minute about
what people did when you pointed out these things. Yeah. Well, so, um.
Two years ago, we did an update on our on
our research for children's television shows, in other words, shows
(35:20):
made for kids eleven and under and found that for
the first time ever, we have reached gender parity in
the lead characters. Uh equal, Mail and Field were so
different from what it was when we began. And then
last year we updated our family film research and found
(35:40):
that the same thing had happened in family films that
now we've reached parody between male and female lead characters,
which was also incredibly different. And then, uh, we now
have found out that in children's TV shows, the world
that is, the fictitious world that has created is now
(36:00):
also which is you know that's has never happened. So,
I mean, those are some of our biggest goals. Uh.
And I'll talk about gender, right and and what about
behind the behind the camera? You know, female directors. It
seems that doors are opening much more frequently, but not
enough for female directors. And um, do you see some
(36:25):
some changes in that department as not only as the
result of your work, but as a result of I
think a much greater awareness of this issue just uniformly right, right, Well,
it's certainly a big change that women are directing some
very big budget movies. Uh. And uh, and that's that's different.
(36:49):
I mean, I think I think Penny Marsha would leave
their own director. The highest grossing was the highest grossing
movie for a female director. But uh, but that's different.
But really the mbers had not moved that much. And
the and the and the reason is, uh, I think
because it's conscious bias. People have known within the industry.
(37:10):
People have known for decades exactly what the numbers are,
so giving them the research will not make them, Uh say,
what what I had no idea, I wasn't hiring female directors.
Let me now change everything that it wouldn't work because
everybody already knew. So it had to be like you
(37:30):
couldn't use the technique that I had because it wasn't
necessarily unconscious, I think. But but things are definitely improving it.
Disney has really done an incredible job of not only
making more movies than anybody else starting a female character,
but uh, encouraging and developing female directors. But but it
(37:52):
is You're right, it is getting better, but it's not
anywhere near, uh even remotely every close to equal speaking
of a league of their own, did you see the
remake on Amazon? Well? Yes, Uh, I don't know. I
don't think you can call it a remake maybe it's
(38:13):
a rethink. Uh yeah, and it's this year is the
thirtieth anniversary to get their own and now there's this, Um,
there's this series. Um, there's still the Peaches, but they're
not our characters. There's some different characters. And uh. And
from what I've read about the motivation for this was
(38:37):
Penny Marshall. I mean at that time, the time was different.
And also, um, Penny said, I don't have enough real
estate to cover these topics. Um. There there weren't any
gay characters in the original movie. There was one very
short moment that looked at um, black women not being
(38:59):
allowed to be on the teams, and and they really
wanted to explore those aspects of it in a in
a in a much bigger way and a much more
modern way, really much more modern way. Yeah, but but
telling the story through you know this this period period piece.
Did you watch it? I saw I've seen the first
(39:20):
maybe three episodes, And what did you think? Was that
a strange experience for you to watch it? Or really fascinating?
It was strange and fascinating. It was. Yeah, it was
because it's like this looks so much like what you know,
what we did. They really captured, you know, the error again,
and there's all these um, I forget what they'll call,
(39:41):
but little nods to the original film. You know, like
the lead character in the TV show is also a
catch up. She's not like my character at all, but
she's also a catcher and uh. And she runs for
the train to get you know, to go to Wrigley
Field and um, and one of the characters catches a ball,
all bare handed nods nods, I guess too, to the
(40:04):
original film. Meanwhile, in addition to this book, you've got
an exciting thing happening on screen because Zoe Kravitz, her
directorial debut is called Pussy Island. And um, you are
in that film, right, so tell me about that and
how that came to be. Um, I got you know,
(40:28):
the request, would I would I like to be in
this movie? And um and uh. And I loved the script.
I was so shocked by the title. It's uh. But
I'm shocked that people just say it. You know, I
think ten years ago people would have put p asters astros,
why or whatever. But um, but I love the script
(40:49):
and I really loved the character because I get to
be quite funny in this role. I play. Uh Channing
Tatum's instant and for various reasons, he needs an assistant,
and I am the worst assistant ever. I fall in
the pool, I'm dropping things, I can't keep things straight
(41:11):
and and it's all funny. But then later you find
out why I'm like that. So it's not just that
I am like that anyway. Is it a thriller? Is
it a comedy? What is it a thriller? Well? That's exciting.
And what else are you up to in addition to
being in p Island and and writing your book? Um?
(41:34):
Anything else on the horizon? No? No, not, I mean no,
not in the immediate um, in the immediate future. I
have to be very careful what I get interested in,
because whatever it is, I will want to go to
the Olympics in it. Uh. So I'm you know, carefully
choosing choosing what I what I next get involved in.
(41:55):
But I'm you know, allowing some other movies and TV
shows and things like that. Yeah. Well, um, I love
every time I see you on the screen figure small
and and Gina. I'm as I said a few times already,
it's so wonderful the work you've done promoting women and
other kind of marginalized people and making sure that they
(42:18):
have that their front and center. Because you and I
have talked about it many times how critically important representation
is for for society and for kind of unleashing the
ambitions of everyone who's watching, because you know, seeing what
is possible on the screen really does translate, I think,
(42:41):
into people's everyday lives. It really does. You need to
see yourself reflected, uh in the popular culture. I mean
that's that's where you get information about what's important. And
if you don't see somebody like yourself, you're like, Okay,
I get it. I guess I'm not important to anybody
in um. So it's very important to change that. Yes,
(43:05):
China Davis's memoir is called Dying of Politeness and it's
out now. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production
of I Heart Media and Katie Curic Media. The executive
producers Army Katie Curic and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer
(43:27):
is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fasio.
The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For
more information about today's episode, or to sign up for
My Morning newsletter Wake Up Call. Go to Katie currek
dot com. You can also find me at Katie curic
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
(43:48):
podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic, and this is next question.
I love when the people we've gotten to know over
the years on the big and small screen come out
with a memoir. And I'm not just saying that because
I did the same last year. Going There now available
in paperback. No, I'm talking about people we feel like
(00:20):
we know but don't really know, you know, like the
actor and activist Gina Davis. Gina is someone I have
interviewed over the years and admired, both in her diverse
movie roles and for the incredible activists and leadership she's
taken on fighting for gender equity in Hollywood. But Gina
is one of those clever stars that hasn't revealed all
(00:43):
that much of herself until now. I never have been
in this position of having written something and people gonna
read about me and you know, what did I say
touch or something. Let's talk about the title of Dying
of Politeness, because you tell a story in the book
(01:03):
which kind of in a weird way, set you out
on this path of kind of I guess squashing your
emotions in some ways. Tell that story. You were just
what three years old and you were in church? Oh yeah, No,
I was a baby. Um and I don't personally remember,
but I was told about it relentlessly. I was sending
(01:24):
my mom's lap in church, and I was a baby
and obviously able to sit up at this point, and
I was moving around, of course like babies. Well, and
somehow orther, I lurched forward and I clocked my head
on the pew in front, and it made a huge crack,
and minister stopped speaking and everybody paused to see, you know,
his bloody murder going to be screamed now. And uh,
(01:47):
and my mom said she loved to tell the story.
My mom said she she clushed me and said, and
she didn't say that was the proudest things you could
think of, and love to be tell them about that.
And uh, it was only late and I heard it
(02:08):
so many times, But only there you realized is that
a good thing? I mean, you know, I was able
to know that I had to not show my feelings,
my real feelings, at a very very early age. You
know that, don't don't be troubled to anybody. Don't make
(02:28):
it noise. You were basically being praised for repressing your emotions,
even if that meant pain. And I'm wondering how that
manifested itself in your life from that moment on. In
other words, you know, kids should be seen and not heard,
and especially for girls to be expressive or to talk
(02:50):
openly about things. Was that really discouraged in your home
growing up? Well, I'll tell you it wasn't about being
a girl, because my father actually treated me unusually I
think maybe for the time, and and uh beautifully. You know,
he he encouraged my confidence from the very beginning. And
(03:13):
you know, if he was going to shingle the roof,
I was too. And you described your childhood as sort
of like a little house on the prairie. Yes, without
the pinafores or the prairie, but but it was, you know,
it was like a throwback to another another century. We
always had kerosene lanterns ready, for example. But but it
(03:33):
wasn't about being a girl. It was about being um
self effacing. I don't need anything, I don't want anything,
to be incredibly incredibly polite, not to have anyone have
to put anything out for you. And so it was
to the point where if someone was trying to hand
me a candy, it was no trouble. They already were
(03:56):
headed in their hand. I had to say no, no, no,
thank you, I'm not um because it was not polite
to actually want something or need something. So that was
the message, so to not express your needs basically um
and and I guess I got mixed up with the
church story. It was when you were three years old
that you decided, in fact, in fact announced you were
(04:20):
going to be an actress. Yes, I announced to my
parents that that was going to be my job. I
don't even know how I knew people had jobs and
three years old or and I certainly hadn't been to
the movies unless they took us to some animated Disney
movie or something. But that's what I said, I'm going
to be. I must have seen some you know, I
(04:40):
know I watched television. U photos of me watching watching television.
But I somehow perceived that people were pretending to do
things and I wanted to do that. And and obviously
you had to have a lot of confidence, and that
expressed your needs. So your parents did give you conf
it ends. So what what's the difference of expressing your
(05:04):
wants versus expressing your ambition? Well, you know, something you
just said made me think, uh uh, maybe some wow.
I had figured out or unconsciously realized that if I
was a character, the character wouldn't have to repress her feelings.
(05:26):
I can't. We need psychologists it up. But uh, but
the thing is, I knew I wanted to be on film.
I didn't want to be in theater like I didn't.
There was nothing about me the craved people looking at me.
I'm sure that I craved approval, you know, as big,
(05:48):
big as approval as I could possibly get. But um,
I think it was the opportunity to be to try
on different, for alms, to be somebody else, to be
somebody who's not quiet and shy. And you know your
childhood was really idyllic. But you do write about a neighbor, Mr. Teller,
(06:10):
who who molested you, basically Gina, which made me think, gosh,
it's just so commonplace, um for this to happen. And
it was a really interesting story because he went from
sort of hugging you to touching you and appropriately to
(06:31):
the point you kind of ex basically showed your mom
what he was doing. Um And and I'm curious to
know sort of for you to explain what her reaction
was to that, right, right, Well, The thing is, I
was ten, and I didn't know I've never heard the
(06:53):
term privates. I didn't even know there was anything between
my legs that meant a thing that was significant. And
so when he started touching me there, I didn't think
anything about I mean, I didn't think there was This
is terribly wrong. This shouldn't be happening. I know, you know,
nobody should be touching that area. And so when I
(07:15):
told my mom about it, I just showed her on
her what he was doing to me. She went through
the ceiling and sailed down the middle of the road
to this house. I came out to the sidewalk and
watched her disappear into his h his house, and then
when she came back, she said, um, you're never to
(07:37):
bring the paper inside his house again. You leave it
down at the bottom of the stairs. Okay, But but
I didn't say, because what happened was not your fault
or or whatever. Um, So then I knew there's there
are horrible secrets in the world that you're just just
(07:59):
kind of stumble on and not know what they are,
and it could be you doing something really wrong, you know.
But god, I just didn't know, And what did you
think about your mom's reaction and what would you have
done if this had happened to your daughter? Well, right,
I mean right, Um, I think my mom had a
(08:21):
great reaction. She uh, you know, she was very angry.
She flew up the streets. She come fronted him, immediately
told him what's what, this is, what's going to happen?
And that always great. Um, you know, I probably wish
that she would have explained to me what happened to
why that was wrong, or what I should do in
the future, or you know, tell me immediately if anybody
(08:42):
touches x Y is he uh and all that. But
but but yeah, I would have got the police involved,
and you know, immediately and uh and what is just
a different time though, I was gonna say, I think
our our vocabulary and or understand ending of these situations
(09:02):
just they weren't fully formed back then. I remember my
sister walking up the street and some man called her
over to the car and I think she was twelve,
and exposed himself to her. And I think, you know,
I don't think my mom. My mom was really upset
(09:23):
about it. I think I don't think she called the police,
but I think, you know, it was sort of just
like there are a lot of perverts out there, and
people weren't necessarily held to account when they behaved a
certain way as they are now. Yeah, do you remember
if your mom said don't approach a car if they
(09:45):
call you over or anything like that. Oh, yeah she did,
she said, Yeah, I think she did. And don't talk
to strangers and all that stuff. Now we always do
that now, you know, to start from the beginning. Nobody
touch you if you don't want them to, and all
that stuff. So it's it's very different. You grew up
(10:07):
in whereham am I pronouncing it correctly, Massachusetts, and then
after college you decided that you were going to New
York to pursue a modeling career. And and obviously you're
very tall, how taller Eugena six feet? So did you
you really saw modeling as a vehicle to get into
(10:31):
the movie business or to become an actress? Right? Well, yes,
this was my scheme because I knew this. I was
in I was a theater major, and and most everybody
wanted to do theater, but I knew I wanted to
do films or TV or something like that, be on screen.
(10:51):
But nobody ever I've never asked anybody. Nobody ever said,
you know, if you want to do that, you should
actually go to l A instead. Everybody's going to New York.
So I went with them and and then I'm like,
how am I going to get uh? In movies? But
I planned this actually when I was still in college
that I saw that Christie Brinkley and Lauren Hutton's mother,
(11:12):
you know, supermodels were getting cast in movies, and I thought, Okay,
so the way I'll do this is I will become
a model and then they'll just hire me, because obviously
I thought it's so much easier to become a super
bottle at an actor. So but it actually worked out,
(11:32):
but actually worked out. We'll talk about how he made
the leap right right, and and I never became a
super bottle. By the way, I was only on the
cover of New Jersey Monthly, so I didn't take off
in that way. But they were casting TUTSI in New York,
shooting in New York, and had the idea, let's call
(11:53):
model agencies to see if they have any models who
can also act, because it called for the character to
be physically attractive, Let's say uh and uh and so
they said, yeah, yeah, we have one and sent me
for the audition and it was just a you know,
casting assistant with a video camera and some you know
(12:14):
office and uh and they said, where a bathing suit
under your clothes? Because if your audition, well, they're gonna
want to see your you in a bathing suit, and
because the character called for being in her underwear at
certain points of the movie. So so I went to
the audition, I read for it. She didn't say, let's
see you in your bathing suit. So I just completely
(12:34):
forgot and one of the odds I'm going to get
it cast in a movie with us, and happened as
my first I just said, you know so, So I
forgot all about it, and I was going to Paris
to do the uh collections the runway shows for the
first time. I was all excited about that. And I
was there and evidently sending Pollock the director saw my
(12:55):
video and said, hey, I like her. Where's her beating suit?
We forgot to get any pictures of her anyway, Well
get her back, No, she's in Europe. Well did they
have it? Does her agent have any pictures of her
in a bathing suit? And fortunately I had been in
a victorious secret catalog, said hot Dog. They said those
(13:18):
photos over where you know, wind blown air brush, perfectly lit,
you know, instead of standing in a sad midtown office. Yeah. Anyway,
I got the part, which is pretty amazing. I mean,
what was that experience like? Working with with Dustin Hoffman
and Jessica Lang and just that incredible cast and also
(13:41):
m who did who did I love? Also in that
movie who has ms? She's blonde? Terry gar who was
such such a great comedic actress. So I mean, did
you were you pinching yourself being with all these people? Oh?
I really well, I couldn't believe it, although I sort
(14:03):
of did believe it because it's what I thought was
gonna happen. So it's very it was a very strange time.
But um, and Cindy Pollock and it was incredible director,
you know, for my first job, you know, you couldn't
ask for anything better. I would have done anything, um,
but um, yeah, it was amazing, amazing, amazing, And the
(14:26):
funny thing about it was, you know, it's my first
I've never been on movie. Said I didn't know anything,
but I was too embarrassed about that to ask anybody
anything about how things go on a movie set. So
I didn't know. I didn't ever ask anything, and people
didn't tell me things either. They didn't volunteer, for example,
(14:49):
that you only come on the days when you're in
a scene. So I assumed everybody was going to come
every day all day. So I did it. And then
what would ever said, by the way, you know, you
don't have to be here? Yeah, nobody ever said anything
about it. Um, every day, I got my chair and
(15:11):
put it right next to Sydney Pollock and sat next
to him all day. And it never heard of me that, wait,
the other actors are sitting over there, and probably I
shouldn't be bothering the director while we're shooting. But but
he let you sit next to him and watched him work,
which must have been invaluable, invaluable, and he never said
(15:33):
a thing. He called me sunshine, and UM was very
respectful from the beginning, very respectful. And so you know,
I had this incredible experience that I never would have
if I'd asked a question. Here and there you write
about the fact that that Dustin Hoffman gave you some
good advice about how to deal with lecherous men on
(15:57):
the set and what did he tell you? So all
day long he was giving me advice because he was
sure that I was going to have this career and uh,
and so one time he said, now, uh, never sleep
with your co star. By the way, you should never
do that. It's just my message things up, don't do it.
So here's what you say. If your co star propositions you,
(16:19):
you say, oh, thank you, You're very attractive. I would
love to, but I don't want to ruin the sexual
tension between us. And uh, I was like, okay, So
I squirrel that away and he used it later with
Jack Nicholson. What happened Jack Nicholson. It's too long to
explain why this happened. But Jack Nicholson called me, um
(16:44):
and uh after putsy and said, and you know I
had got this message called back Jack Nicholson, Oh my god, incredible.
So Mr Nicholson, hello, this is you know, Davis's the
model and uh is it a gena? Is it gonna happen?
And I, oh my god, but I instantly knew, well,
(17:06):
first of all, I should have you know, what is
it going to be about? It's gonna be about that.
But I said, I know what to say. Oh my god,
for once in my life, I know exactly what to say.
And I said, well, Mr Nicholson, jack Um, I have
a feeling and we are gonna be working together someday,
and I would hate to have ruined the sexual tension
(17:28):
between us. What did he say? He said, Oh, man,
who told you to say that? Because he's just someone
knew that someone had told me to say that. But
it got me out of the out of the situation.
When we come back, Delma, Louise and a life changing
friendship with Susan Surrandon. You obviously have been in some
(18:04):
iconic films. A League of their Own is a close second,
but the most iconic one is obviously Thelm and Louise.
Tell me a little bit about that experience and that
moment in time, Gina, because I really see your life
and career juxtaposed against sort of the feminist movement writ large.
And I'm curious why that movie made such a huge
(18:28):
impression on the national psyche if you will, well, you
know the reaction when it came up Eastern None of
us predicted h that it was even going to be
seen or successful. You know, it seems like a small
budget movie and maybe people won't like the ending or something.
But it exploded on the scene, you know, a cover
(18:49):
of Time magazine almost instantly, and and all that, and uh,
and the heading was on the title on the cover
of the magazine was why Thelma and Louise strikes and
herv um, not why people like it or And there
were two negative essays in that issue about how this
(19:10):
was a horrible development because we're showing that women have
to resort to violence and whatever. The big thing that
I noticed was the difference in if people recognized me
once the movie came out, because I was used to
people say, oh, I like the Flyer, I like beetles
or whatever, and being you know, very nice, and that's
all they needed was to tell me that. And and
(19:31):
suddenly people were saying, Oh my god, I have to
tell you what this movie meant to me. This changed
my life. This is how many times I saw it,
this is who I saw it with, And you know,
they really wanted to share with me how important experience was.
And I realized that in a profound way, that we
give women so few opportunities to come out of a
(19:54):
movie feeling inspired and empowered by the female characters. Where
are you going? We've been seeing you all over It's like,
why don't you take off those shades? I want to
see your eyes. Yeah, we think you have really bad manners.
(20:16):
Where did you get off behaen like that with women
you didn't even know? Huh? How do you feel somebody
that's your mother or your sister or your wife? Huh
what are you talking about? You know? Good? Damn well
when I'm topping bath, I mean, really, that business with
(20:37):
your tongue, what is that? That is disgusting? Oh my god?
That But it really did stricken earth. There was definitely
a segment of the population who thought it was a
very bad thing. Um and uh. Actually, Entertainment Weekly made
a chart. They thought that was funny, you know that
people were saying it's so violent, And they made a
(20:58):
chart comparing Fema Louise and lethal weapons. So just just
just just just looking to too violent movies and compare
it was like the fem Louise number bill is fire
or something like seven. Uh. For they said, well, it's
approximately fifty, but you can't really single out machine gun bullets.
(21:21):
It's successfully and and I mean it was just the
carnage deaths three including themselves, you know, so anyway, it's
just you know, I think that it did have these
incredibly strong female leads, and you and Susan Surranton and
talk about women with eight finding themselves and claiming agency, right,
(21:48):
And I think it was such a powerful message for
for women everywhere that you were taking control of your
your destiny basically to the very end um. And you
also became lifelong friends with Susan Sarandon, who was sort
of the total antithesis of dying of politeness. And what
(22:13):
did you learn from watching Susan and the way she
moved in the world that you kind of absorbed and
took with Eugena. Yeah, you know, I think she affected
my life. It changed my life more than anyone else has.
And uh, and it was it was watching her the
way she moved through the world. I mean it was
(22:34):
from you know, a few minutes into having met her. Uh,
I knew what she was. I saw what she was like,
and I was like, how have I never been exposed
to a woman who who lives like this, who doesn't
start everything she says with I don't know what you'll think,
This is probably a bad idea, but what would you
(22:54):
think if, I mean, if you don't like, if we
don't have to you know, it's the only way. It
was the only way I exist. It was like that.
And uh, we were going through the script right the
first time I met her with Ridley Scott, and I
swear it was like on page one that she said, Um,
you know my first line here, I think we should
just cut it. And I was like, well, but that's
(23:18):
how we're starting. Uh. And I looked at Ridley and
he was like, yeah, sure, I not No, we don't
need that. And uh it sounds crazy, but you know,
I could never experienced a woman who talks like that
North scene a reaction like Ridley's where he doesn't I think, Hey,
(23:39):
how dare you just say things? Did you find that
empowering for yourself when it came to your your work
and your future roles, that you could use your voice
and you didn't have to be so polite. Yeah, it
really really impacted my life tremendously. Now I can't say
(23:59):
I just jumped to that is I'm gonna be that um,
but I feel like the goal of my life became
to be able to react to something or behave in
the way I really wanted to, in the way I
(24:20):
really felt, instead of massaging everything into what will the
other person think? Or can I get away with this?
Or how can I twist this around to be unobjectionable?
You know. So that's that's like became my life school,
and that's what I'm I'm still working on getting much
(24:42):
much better thanks to thanks to that early education. After
the break, how Gina took control of her career after forty.
(25:03):
I have to ask you about when your career stalled,
and it was sort of you were forty years old,
and gosh, I think it would be so hard to
be an actor Gina and just worry all the time
and are you in or you out? Are you up?
Are you down? What's next? You know what's in the future.
And I'm curious if that period of your life was
(25:26):
difficult to to process and also to deal with. Right Well, yes,
I mean I had heard about this phenomenon that supposedly
happened that when you get to forty for women, the
jobs start to fall away. But first of all, I thought,
Meryl Streep, Jessica Lang and those people are going to
(25:48):
fix it before I got to forty, and failing that, yeah,
I would be the exception. And uh and but then
it turned out that I was profoundly not the exception.
And you know, I point out in the book that
it pretty much happens, happened to all my peers, and
it just happens to everybody mostly. It really is a
(26:08):
true phenomenon that happens. And uh, so I was. I
was shocked by that. And I had always taken time two.
I was very picky always about what I wanted to
say yes to, and partly because I had played such
incredible rules. So I was happy to wait a year
until the next good thing came along. But to suddenly
(26:30):
have to wait a year, two years, three years for
the next good thing to come along was stunning. Do
you think that that is still the case in Hollywood, Gina,
or do you think, um, have you seen that situation
improve at all? No? No, I haven't. Um. In fact,
some of our research at my institute showed that uh
(26:54):
of characters and films are fifty or over and on
that only five of characters fifty and over are women.
So it's happening. It's full on still there. So Meryl,
Meryl Streep and actresses like that are clearly the exception,
(27:16):
not the rule, right, right, right. I talked to when
I was first starting my institute, someone recommended that I
speak to a media personality and uh, talk, tell her
about it and maybe she'll want to cover it, and
uh and I and so I got in touch with
her and I explained that, um, that there were far
(27:39):
fewer female characters were right then I was analyzing television
shows and movies made for kids, and I said, there's
far fewer female characters in movies made for kids. And
she said, no, no, no, that's so true. There's Meryl
Streep works all the time. And I was like, she
and kids TV? And plus, what does that have to
(28:00):
do with anything I'm talking about data? But anyway, yeah,
it was. It was pretty shocking all that. And you
did start the institute, but before you did that, in
your forties, that's when you decided you wanted to have
children and you became you got into archery and almost
made the Olympic team, right, I mean, where did that
(28:23):
come from? Uh? You know, Um, it happened that I
had had to learn some skills that I didn't have
in real life for movies, Like the first one was
learning baseball for leading their own and that's when I
found out for the first time at thirty five, that
I was physically coordinated and athletic actually, and was so
(28:44):
stunning that um, it really changed the way I thought
about myself and my body. And then you know, Controt Island,
I'm learning sword fighting, and then the Longest Good Night,
I'm learning taekwondo and ice skating and all this other stuff.
And so then I decided I wanted to see if
I could take up a sport in real life and
(29:06):
do well at it, not just a movie version of
whatever it was. And saw archery on TV and I thought, oh,
it's so beautiful. I wonder if I could be good
at that. And I take everything too far, so you know,
I became obsessed and uh. And then I made it
to the Olympic trials two and a half years later,
(29:29):
and that's unbelievable. But getting back to this disappointment at
rolls drying up when you were forty really ignited this
curiosity in you about women and how they're portrayed in media.
And I remember it was watching cartoons with your daughter.
(29:49):
I believe that spurred you on to want to change things.
Can you tell that story. Yes it was, Yes, it
wasn't Roles drying up at all. Really that um spurred
me onto one to create a research institute. It was
my daughter when she was a toddler. I decided, Hey,
let's I'll show us some preschool shows. You know, great idea,
(30:13):
that'll be fun. And I ever sitting on my lap,
and the very first thing we watched, within five minutes
or ten minutes, I was like, how many how many
female characters are on this show? And it was one
and with lots of other male characters, and I thought,
wait a minute. And then I saw it everywhere in
movies and TV and videos and everything for kids, and
(30:36):
but seeing it through her eyes made me realize, wait
a minute, we are teaching kids to have gender bias
from minute one, like showing them imbalanced worlds where boys
are more plentiful and do most of the interesting things.
And uh, and there's one girl, you know usually And
so I didn't intend to take it to the extremes
(30:59):
that I uh, but I couldn't find anybody in Hollywood
who noticed what I noticed. Every single person I talked
to said, that's not true anymore. No, that's that's that's
been fixed, and Meryl Street is still working. Yeah, yeah, no,
seriously working. And also they would name a movie with
one female character as proof that gender inequality have been fixed.
(31:23):
So I thought, okay, so this is completely unconscious, and
if I get the data, I could take it directly
to them, because I kind of could get meetings with
people and tell them something they don't know. And because
they make stuff for kids and they must love kids,
(31:43):
so this could actually change things, and it happens, it worked.
I mean, I am so impressed by your commitment to
this GENA because this wasn't something that you sort of
dabbled in. I mean, you have been focused on this
for a very long time, and you have taken a
very research oriented approach, a very data driven approach, by
(32:07):
working with USC and by really providing the information and
the evidence of gender bias, so executives and people couldn't
couldn't really come up with an excuse for why they
were doing certain things. Just give our listeners a bit
of insight into some of the things you did and
(32:29):
have done in terms of showing how few speaking parts
there are for women, how few women centric roles there are,
and you just kind of tell us briefly some of
the work you did and some of the changes that
were implemented because of your work, right right, Well, part
(32:50):
of my approach to this from the beginning was I'm
going to go privately because this is unconscious. There's no
point in busting them. You didn't want to aim anyone,
and there's no reason to get the public involved even
you know. I mean the other way to go might
have been educate the populace and have them demand whatever.
But I thought, I know, I can go in private
(33:11):
to them and just like nobody even has to know
that I'm doing it. So the research from the beginning
boys numbers and quantity and quality. Uh So, we always
looked at the occupations, the aspirations and those kinds of
things of the characters, and we also looked at um
(33:31):
from the beginning, looked at people of color as well,
and presented it to them. And people sometimes asked me,
you know, did anybody have resistance? And uh and never were.
Always people were so shocked because they were so sure
they were doing right by girls. They're so shocked and
want to do better and have I mean, we've made
(33:52):
tremendous strides, but now we have we have six categories
under representation that we that we look at women and
people of color, and people over fifty, people with large
body types, people with disabilities l G, B, t Q,
A, A A, and uh. So we look at all of
it as well as what are their occupations, where their
(34:13):
goals were aspirations, so we can get a very complete
picture to people when they when they want to know,
you know about their project and how have you affected change?
Because I want you to brag for a minute about
how this behind the scenes kind of quiet work you've
done has really made a difference. And what I always
(34:35):
admire about Eugena is you did this before it was
kind of I don't want to say cool, but before
more people, uh we're kind of jumping into this, and
I want to say jumping on the bandwagon because it's
such an important bandwagon to jump on. But before people
were really interested in these issues, you were in there
(34:57):
fighting the good fight and you did make some progress,
I mean significant progress. So Brad for a minute about
what people did when you pointed out these things. Yeah. Well, so, um.
Two years ago, we did an update on our on
our research for children's television shows, in other words, shows
(35:20):
made for kids eleven and under and found that for
the first time ever, we have reached gender parity in
the lead characters. Uh equal, Mail and Field were so
different from what it was when we began. And then
last year we updated our family film research and found
(35:40):
that the same thing had happened in family films that
now we've reached parody between male and female lead characters,
which was also incredibly different. And then, uh, we now
have found out that in children's TV shows, the world
that is, the fictitious world that has created is now
(36:00):
also which is you know that's has never happened. So,
I mean, those are some of our biggest goals. Uh.
And I'll talk about gender, right and and what about
behind the behind the camera? You know, female directors. It
seems that doors are opening much more frequently, but not
enough for female directors. And um, do you see some
(36:25):
some changes in that department as not only as the
result of your work, but as a result of I
think a much greater awareness of this issue just uniformly right, right, Well,
it's certainly a big change that women are directing some
very big budget movies. Uh. And uh, and that's that's different.
(36:49):
I mean, I think I think Penny Marsha would leave
their own director. The highest grossing was the highest grossing
movie for a female director. But uh, but that's different.
But really the mbers had not moved that much. And
the and the and the reason is, uh, I think
because it's conscious bias. People have known within the industry.
(37:10):
People have known for decades exactly what the numbers are,
so giving them the research will not make them, Uh say,
what what I had no idea, I wasn't hiring female directors.
Let me now change everything that it wouldn't work because
everybody already knew. So it had to be like you
(37:30):
couldn't use the technique that I had because it wasn't
necessarily unconscious, I think. But but things are definitely improving it.
Disney has really done an incredible job of not only
making more movies than anybody else starting a female character,
but uh, encouraging and developing female directors. But but it
(37:52):
is You're right, it is getting better, but it's not
anywhere near, uh even remotely every close to equal speaking
of a league of their own, did you see the
remake on Amazon? Well? Yes, Uh, I don't know. I
don't think you can call it a remake maybe it's
(38:13):
a rethink. Uh yeah, and it's this year is the
thirtieth anniversary to get their own and now there's this, Um,
there's this series. Um, there's still the Peaches, but they're
not our characters. There's some different characters. And uh. And
from what I've read about the motivation for this was
(38:37):
Penny Marshall. I mean at that time, the time was different.
And also, um, Penny said, I don't have enough real
estate to cover these topics. Um. There there weren't any
gay characters in the original movie. There was one very
short moment that looked at um, black women not being
(38:59):
allowed to be on the teams, and and they really
wanted to explore those aspects of it in a in
a in a much bigger way and a much more
modern way, really much more modern way. Yeah, but but
telling the story through you know this this period period piece.
Did you watch it? I saw I've seen the first
(39:20):
maybe three episodes, And what did you think? Was that
a strange experience for you to watch it? Or really fascinating?
It was strange and fascinating. It was. Yeah, it was
because it's like this looks so much like what you know,
what we did. They really captured, you know, the error again,
and there's all these um, I forget what they'll call,
(39:41):
but little nods to the original film. You know, like
the lead character in the TV show is also a
catch up. She's not like my character at all, but
she's also a catcher and uh. And she runs for
the train to get you know, to go to Wrigley
Field and um, and one of the characters catches a ball,
all bare handed nods nods, I guess too, to the
(40:04):
original film. Meanwhile, in addition to this book, you've got
an exciting thing happening on screen because Zoe Kravitz, her
directorial debut is called Pussy Island. And um, you are
in that film, right, so tell me about that and
how that came to be. Um, I got you know,
(40:28):
the request, would I would I like to be in
this movie? And um and uh. And I loved the script.
I was so shocked by the title. It's uh. But
I'm shocked that people just say it. You know, I
think ten years ago people would have put p asters astros,
why or whatever. But um, but I love the script
(40:49):
and I really loved the character because I get to
be quite funny in this role. I play. Uh Channing
Tatum's instant and for various reasons, he needs an assistant,
and I am the worst assistant ever. I fall in
the pool, I'm dropping things, I can't keep things straight
(41:11):
and and it's all funny. But then later you find
out why I'm like that. So it's not just that
I am like that anyway. Is it a thriller? Is
it a comedy? What is it a thriller? Well? That's exciting.
And what else are you up to in addition to
being in p Island and and writing your book? Um?
(41:34):
Anything else on the horizon? No? No, not, I mean no,
not in the immediate um, in the immediate future. I
have to be very careful what I get interested in,
because whatever it is, I will want to go to
the Olympics in it. Uh. So I'm you know, carefully
choosing choosing what I what I next get involved in.
(41:55):
But I'm you know, allowing some other movies and TV
shows and things like that. Yeah. Well, um, I love
every time I see you on the screen figure small
and and Gina. I'm as I said a few times already,
it's so wonderful the work you've done promoting women and
other kind of marginalized people and making sure that they
(42:18):
have that their front and center. Because you and I
have talked about it many times how critically important representation
is for for society and for kind of unleashing the
ambitions of everyone who's watching, because you know, seeing what
is possible on the screen really does translate, I think,
(42:41):
into people's everyday lives. It really does. You need to
see yourself reflected, uh in the popular culture. I mean
that's that's where you get information about what's important. And
if you don't see somebody like yourself, you're like, Okay,
I get it. I guess I'm not important to anybody
in um. So it's very important to change that. Yes,
(43:05):
China Davis's memoir is called Dying of Politeness and it's
out now. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production
of I Heart Media and Katie Curic Media. The executive
producers Army Katie Curic and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer
(43:27):
is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fasio.
The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For
more information about today's episode, or to sign up for
My Morning newsletter Wake Up Call. Go to Katie currek
dot com. You can also find me at Katie curic
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
(43:48):
podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Katie Couric
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.