July 11, 2024 • 57 mins
In 2020, Joe Biden stood on stage with Kamala Harris, Cory Booker, and our guest today, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, and declared himself a “bridge” candidate, hinting at a single term. Now, as he runs for reelection amid heavy scrutiny, the low rumble of approval that has met Whitmer’s term at Michigan’s helm has amplified into a clamor by some for her to step into a larger leadership role in the future Democratic party. Sitting down with Next Question during the Aspen Ideas Festival, Whitmer discussed her role in preserving abortion rights in Michigan and managing the state during COVID-19, among other accomplishments–all of which she did while fielding truly terrifying personal attacks and a kidnapping plot from the MAGA right wing. Gretchen for President? Maybe someday. But here today, her resilience and focus on key issues position her as a prominent future Democratic leader who inspires!
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question.
Back in twenty twenty, then candidate Joe Biden appeared on
a Michigan stage with Kamala Harris, Cory Booker and my
guest today, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Look, I view myself as a bridge, not as anything else.
There's an entire generation of leaders you saw stand behind me.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
They are the future of this country.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
They're the people who are going to.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Many people took that to mean that he'd be one
term president. With his re election campaign and crisis. Coming
off a rough debate performance in June, some people are
scratching their heads, asking was the bridge going to take
this long to build? When I talked to just about
anyone about the future of politics, Gretchen Whitmer's name inevitably
(00:58):
comes up. Her leadership in Michigan has protected reproductive rights
and kept the state together through the darkest days of COVID,
during which she withstood some pretty nasty comments by then
President Trump. You'll hear more about that in a minute.
The Whitmer roots run deep in state politics. Her father
was a part of two Michigan governor's administrations. And her
(01:21):
grandfather was superintendent of schools when integration led to protests,
bus bombings, and kkk rallies. One of her family's mottos,
the Whitmers have quote, short memories and thick skins. Gretchen
also likes to say listening is a superpower. Those qualities
have helped her stay connected to her constituents and focus
(01:44):
on the big issues they care about. But in this
deeply divided country, she's face forces that don't want her
to succeed, and worse, she was the target of a
pretty harrowing kidnapping plot, which she also talks about in
our conversation. It's a bit of a cliche, I know,
but I think it's safe to say Gretchen Whitmer is
(02:05):
one to watch, part of the new generation of leaders
to whom the baton will be passed, and for those
who are angry about the so called garontocracy we have now,
she seems poised to take on an even bigger job
than the governor of Michigan. On a personal note, I
really enjoyed our time together. She is refreshingly candid and
(02:26):
easy to talk to, even when it comes to some
pretty embarrassing moments. Here's our conversation, recorded in Aspen, Colorado,
during the Ideas Festival. Gretchen Whitmer, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
We're doing this from Aspen, Colorado, a beautiful place, although
sadly it's raining a little today, but you'll have to
come back to Aspen and spend some time here.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I would love to I'd love to ski, so I'd
like to come in the winter.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Oh my gosh, you should. You should is fabulous here,
and I'm a really terrible skier, so I can say
from my friends who know how to ski, we're going
to be talking. Governor whit Murphy, I call you Gretchen
because I kind of feel like Gretchen Katie is more comfortable.
You have written a book called True Gretch what I've
learned about life, leadership and everything in between. I'm curious,
(03:20):
why now, Why was this something you wanted to do
at this moment in time.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, one of the questions that I get asked the most,
whether I'm traveling in Michigan or outside of the state,
is with all the heavy stuff, the threats and the
ugliness and pandemics and flooding and protests, how do I
say positive? Why do I want to keep doing this job,
and I think that this is a heavy year. People
(03:45):
are feeling lots of emotions, lots of strife and struggle,
and the political rhetoric is hot, and I thought, if
I can put something light out into the world, right now,
that's what it's all about. So these are ten things
I've learned over the course of my life. Different I
tell stories about when I learned them and how I
use these lessons to get through these last six years
as governor of Michigan. And if I give you a laugh,
(04:06):
or there's a little inspiration, or it's just some light
reading and the heavy time, that's what it's all about.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
It seems to me that it's designed in some ways
to introduce you to an audience and for people really
to get to know you, because you're very honest about
a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Gretchen, Well, I guess.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I mean, I'm not a perfect person, and I've learned
things from my own mistakes or learned things from wiser
people than I am, and have really been able to,
I think, grow through some of those struggles. And if
there's a lesson that I've learned that might make someone's
day a little easier help them navigate something, then I've
(04:44):
accomplished what I set out to do.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
I really appreciate you being honest and vulnerable in this book.
You know, I wrote a memoir a few years ago,
and I was extremely transparent about, you know, my accomplishments,
things I was proud of, but also my flaw us
and things that I regretted or wish I had done better.
And I ended up getting mightily criticized for those things.
(05:08):
But why do you think it's important for leaders, and
maybe particularly women leaders, to be honest about their journey
and some of the mistakes they've made along the way.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Well, I think I'm lucky that there were women who
came before me who made it easier for me to
show up as myself and to be that honest. You know,
there's a recent article that Rebecca Traster wrote, and she
wrote about how Jennifer Granholm, the first governor of Michigan,
who is now our energy secretary, how she'd cut her
hair short and tried to you know, not.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Kind of masculate, masculate herself, if that's a word.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Right, exactly exactly. And I think that because she and
people like Hillary Clinton came before and took so much heat.
It's made it easier for people in my generation to
show up as we are. And I'm hoping that the
things that I've had to navigate, the generation comes after
me doesn't have to. And I think that's why talking
about it, really identifying it, and being authentic and showing
(06:07):
up that way is important, and showing people that you
are not a perfect person and that you're here better
than anyone else.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
And in a way it gives other women permission to
not be perfect exactly, because that's a recipe for disaster.
Let's face it, because no one is.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Well.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Let's talk a little bit about your life. You were
born in Lansing in nineteen seventy one. Politics. I learned
so much about you by the way in this book,
and I thought I knew a fair amount about you.
But it was a family business. Your mom was a Democrat.
She was a lawyer and served as assistant Attorney general.
Your dad, meanwhile, was a Republican and served in Governor
(06:45):
Milliken's cabinet before becoming an insurance executive. Looking back, was
it a foregone conclusion growing up with these two figures
obviously in your life, that you'd go into politics.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
God, No, no, no, I mean did their service turn
you often anyway? No public service that you know. Their
generations of my family have been in public service. And
at the end of the book, I talk about my
grandfather who was a superintendent during court ordered bussing and
had the ku Klux Klan target his house and bomb
buses in Pontiac, Michigan while he was superintendent. So I
(07:20):
always revered public service, but I thought I was going
to be a sports broadcaster, to be honest.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yes, they were very funny man.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
You know ESPN. When I was growing up. I love sports.
Went to Michigan State to do with that, and it
was my dad who said, you know, the capital is
right down the street. So few people understand how state
government works. Why don't you apply for an internship and
see if you can get one and just check it out.
Maybe you hate it, but you've had an opportunity. Maybe
you love it. And that was really great advice. I
(07:49):
got involved and passionate about public policy and really changed
the trajectory of my life.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
I feel like every young person, honestly, and I regret
not doing that to be an intern in some form
of government, because I think part of the problem in
Gretchen is so many people really don't truly understand how
government works. Civics education has been kind of not necessarily prioritized.
(08:16):
Sandra Day O'Connor, you know, that was her big fight
in the later years of her life. And I think
there's nothing like seeing government at work with your very
own eyes.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I couldn't agree more. I think that we need to
do better in terms of civic education, for sure. I
think that it's easy to undermine the institutions of our
democracy when people don't know, or don't trust, or don't
understand how it works. So giving people that exposure it
was a great suggestion of my father's. I've made the
same suggestion to both my girls because I want them
(08:50):
to also be, you know, consumers of information and active
in their in their government, whether it's they hold office
one day, which I doubt either one of them will do, yeah,
or it is just simply as a citizen or business
owner or whatever their path is.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, as safe works exactly. I think as a citizen
where we all have that responsibility. I wanted to ask
you about the fact that your parents had a mixed marriage,
so to speak. Right, your dad was a Republican. Your
mom was a Democrat. I know they ultimately divorced when
you were just six years old. But how do you
(09:28):
think being exposed to different political perspectives shaped you, Because
it's very unusual. Only twenty one percent of marriages today
are mixed party, according to the American Family Survey.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Well, I think it tells you a lot about where
the parties have gone over the years. Right, my father,
It's really funny. He was a part of the Milligan
and Romney administrations in Michigan. Romney, of course, the name
everyone knows.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yes, amidst dad, Right, it's dad, George Romney, Right, George
Romney exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
But it was a time when the Republican Party they
you know, there were a lot of pro choice people
in the Republican Party. They were Milliken was a great environmentalist.
Protecting the Great Lakes was something that he was very
passionate about equal housing. I mean, it was a different time,
But I do think that one of the lessons that
I've always taken with me and all offices I've held
(10:22):
is that no one person or one party has all
the answers that we've got to be able to talk
to one another and you're never going to find what
you can agree on if you're not even talking to
each other. And I think part of the discouragement that
people have, justifiably is they look at what's going on
in our politics and it's so personal, it's so ugly.
(10:43):
It's sometimes terrifying, you know. I talk about the all
the threats that have become normalized in today's politics in America.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
So scary, right, And I'm going to talk to you
about that in a moment, and also about polarization. But
I do want to touch on a little bit about
your teenage years, because you describe yourself as a bit
of a hellien as a teenager, drinking and getting suspended
from school. You even tell Gretchen one pretty cringe story
(11:11):
of throwing up on your high school principle after he
discovered you you drunk in the parking lot.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, oh my god, moment. And I would have killed
my daughter. So if they'd done anything that stupid. But
you know, I was.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
I ran with a fast ground in high school.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
It was a lot of fun, Katie. It sounds like it,
but it also you know, I wasn't particularly challenged or
interested in what I was you know, learning in school.
And it was that moment. You know, I got in
a lot of trouble. I was suspended, my mother wanted
to kill me. And the worst thing is my dad
goes silent when he's angry. I'm a little more like
(11:47):
my dad. Yeah, and I'm like that too.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Not a good not a good treat.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
By the way, a silent parent who's a.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Silent treatment is not a good way to go.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
But you know, I really got my ag together after that.
I became the most improved student. I got an award
for that, and later in high school and went out
to Michigan State, which was a very much in doubt
if I could get in at one point in high school.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Oh really, But so academically you weren't particularly strong.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
No, I was not disciplined. I had all the raw materials,
but it was not disciplined in the slightest. And I
started to get my stride in college. And then law
school is when it really clicked for me. I loved
law school. I graduated summa cum laude and was loved it.
Finally was challenged and focused and surrounded by people who
(12:35):
were similarly motivated.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
This should give hope to anyone who's got a bit
of a Hellian as a teenager right now that he
or she is not necessarily lost cause, right, absolutely, But
it did create some tension with your mom. You write
about that, right.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
She wanted to kill me, And like I said, if
either of my daughters had been that difficulty, I would
have felt the same exact way. But ultimately went to
college and she became one of my very best friends.
And you know, I talk a little bit about the
time in my life that I think really forged who
I am today, and I became a Sandwich generation member
(13:11):
in my late twenties, my mom was dying of brain cancer.
I had just given birth to my first child and
was both of their primary caregiver, and it was that
experience I think that really made who I am today.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, I read about that, and I'm so sorry because
she was just fifty nine when she died, and you
were thirty one, as you said, with just one daughter
at the time.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Two month old.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yet two month old when she passed away. So how
long was she sick, Gretchen?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
You know, the prognosis was four to six months, and
she lived for about eighteen And I think, you know,
having that child to look forward to was a motive
was helpful for her to keep her spirits up. But
we had good healthcare, she had a supportive family, and
she had a heck of a wonderful attay to like
she was.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, I read in your book she was kind of,
you know, cracking jokes and being funny and sort of
I guess had a bit of a mischievous personality.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah, right, we talked about Gallows humor. Like you know,
I talked to my mom's sister a few years ago
during the pandemic, and she's the closest thing I have
to my mom. And I just said, Aunt, Betsy, you know,
if my mom were here, what would she say to
me right now? And she said, I don't know what
she would say, Gretchen, but you're so much like her.
You can find something humorous even in the darkest, hardest moment,
(14:32):
and that is a huge superpower. And I thought that
was really the nicest thing that I could have heard
in that moment.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And it's nice that you got that from your mom. Right.
And another thing you got is that you often wear
bright pink. I guess you'd call it fusia, right, And
you're wearing fuscha pants today because that was your mom's
favorite color.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
She loved it. She was, you know, at the Attorney
General's office and one of her colleagues she'd worn a pink,
bright pink blaze her to work and she was getting
ready to go to court and one of the colleagues said,
you can't wear pink to court, Sherry, And she said,
Fusta is my power color and went off. And you know,
I had a spectacular showing in court. And I always
(15:13):
love that story. But she loved pink. And when I
kicked off my campaign, the women's marches were happening. We
all were showing up with our pink hats on. So
pink'spen this kind of interesting theme. And as the mom
of two.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Daughters, one named Sherry, yeah, after your mom.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Right exactly, it's kind of a color that makes me
happy and feel energized and strong.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
All right, Well, I like pink too. So let's talk
about twenty thirteen. You were serving as Michigan's Senate minority leader,
and that year state Republicans tried to push through a
bill requiring women in Michigan to buy extra health insurance
for abortion coverage. It was rape insurance as you called it.
(15:56):
On the day the bill came up for a vote,
you tossed aside your prepared remarks.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Why, well, I had an internal strife going. I was
getting ready to speak. We had a situation where the
majority party, the Republicans, would not hold a single hearing,
let women testify, let doctors and nurses testify, like no conversation.
They just wanted to jam through this new policy. And
(16:25):
I thought, I have a MIC, I need to use it.
And I was trying to talk my colleague into telling
his and his wife story. I thought maybe that would
engender some sympathy or at least open up some minds.
They'd been desperately wanting a family. She'd gone through IVF.
It didn't you know, she had a miscarriage, but it
wasn't complete, and so she had to go to the
(16:46):
hospital to have an abortion. Call it a DNC, but
it's an abortion. And had the law been what it
was that they were pushing through the thirty thousand dollars
hospital bill would not have been covered by their insurance.
Was desperately wanted pregnancy. And I asked him if he
could tell the story, and he couldn't. It was just
too recent and too hard. Yeah. I remember walking back
(17:09):
to my desk thinking, God, how can I ask him
to bear himself to the world when I too have
a story that might resonate with people. And so I
decided to share the story for the first time publicly
that I was raped when I was in college as
a freshman. And I grabbed two of my staff people,
one woman, one man, and I said, I shared with
(17:30):
him what had happened. I said, I think thinking about
telling this on the floor and the woman I worked
with said, don't do it. You're not going to change
a single vote. She wanted to protect me because she
knew she was savvy, she knew what was going to happen.
And the man said, I have no advice. You got
to do what you think the right thing to do is.
You know. They're both shocked. And I told the story
(17:50):
and it didn't change a damn vote. Katie, and I
remember after the vote came, one of the guys on
the other side of the aisle came up to me
and said, you're so brave. My wife too was raped
when she was in college, and I wish I could
have voted with you. And I heard that from him,
and I just was like, you've just acknowledged that I
(18:12):
cast the right boat, and you wish you could have,
but you didn't. And it was gutting. But by the
next morning I got into the office and we'd had
hundreds of phone calls and emails and faxes. This was
ten years ago, so faxes were quite a thing. And
that's when I realized, Okay, I laid myself bare, but
(18:32):
I gave voice to something that needed to be given
and people felt seen and heard and represented, and that
was for me, the good part of doing it. And
ten years later, we kept the fight up, and as
governor of Michigan, I got to sign the repeal of
that long the ten year anniversary of.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
It, which was so awesome as a woman who believes
deeply in reproductive rights. Thank you for that, well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I thought it was a good opportunity to show people
that these fights are heard. It can feel very demoralizing
and discouraging, but we're right on these issues and we
can win them. It might take longer than it should, though,
but we can win them.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
When we come back. Gretchen's time and Trump's Twitter crosshairs,
I've been there too. Trump called me a has been,
but I'm still here. Donald Moore after the break. If
you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown
of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness
and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake
(19:36):
Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. I want
to talk to you about the abortion landscape in a moment,
but first I want to talk to you about being
elected as governor of Michigan. That was in twenty eighteen.
(19:59):
Two years later, the pandemic started and your state was
one of the hardest hit. You write in a not
very flattering way about what President Trump did during that time,
which is really frustrating even reading it in retrospect. Of
course we heard about this at the time, But can
you describe sort of the kind of hunger Games environment.
(20:20):
I think actually you described it in a cruel hunger
Game style scramble for equipment, So tell us what that
was like and what was going on at that moment.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, it's hard to remember, right, COVID has really I think.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
It feels like yesterday, and it feels like, you know,
thousand years ago exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, we at the beginning of the pandemic. I know
that Washington State was head first, but then very quickly
COVID was spreading like wildfire through New York City, Detroit,
New Orleans, and Chicago. We were all desperately trying to
just get masks. Our hospitals were filled with COVID patients.
(20:59):
We had doctors and nurses wearing masks for the same
mask for weeks on end. And we were just desperately
trying to get masks and all the ppe that we needed.
And we were asking the federal government for help. And
you know, the president at the time, former President Trump,
had been saying, you know, we're not the nation's supply
(21:19):
or you need to go find these things.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
And so we were if that's not the federal government's
role to at least help coordinate, I don't know what
is right in a national crisis.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Exactly when Americans are dying, when our hospitals are filled,
we had makeshift morgues with refrigerated trucks outside of hospitals.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I mean, you know, I living in New York City,
I live across from Lenox Hill Hospital, and I witnessed
the same thing.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
It was chilling and devastating, and people were scared, and
I was scared. It wasn't so much that I was
mad that that we were being kind of left to
our own devices, but I was fearful for the people
that I I serve, And so we set up a
quickly set up like a global procurement office, trying to
(22:05):
get masks, and when we would get an order confirmed,
all of a sudden, we'd be informed that no, the
federal government actually was going to commandeer that. And so
it was like we were told to go out and
find these and then when we did, we were undermined.
And so it was a really scary time and.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Fear was and you spoke, and you spoke out about
how scary it was and the lack of federal strategy.
As a result, the president at the time, Donald Trump,
zeroed in on you, famously calling you that woman from Michigan.
By the way, I'm a member of that club I've
been tweeted about by Donald Trump.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
He called me.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
It has been a number of years ago, and I'm
still here, so that's good. But you know you, I
thought it was really funny and great how you turned
that Michigan woman into an asset instead of a liability.
Talk to us about that.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I think, you know, I've learned over the year, so
you know how to deal with bullies, right.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
It's oh, in fact, you were bullied, remember, I mean remember,
of course you remember, but you wrote about it in
your book that you had your share of bullies growing up.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, and I think it's important to recognize, listen, take
their weapon and make it your shield. When he called
me that woman from Michigan, you know, was I hurt, No,
not at all, But was I worried about what he
would exact retribution and not work with us on you know,
all the things we needed during the pandemic. But I
(23:35):
decided to wear a T shirt that someone from the
great Michigan Etsy community had made and sent to me
that said that woman from Michigan. I wore it on
Trevor Noah's show.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
And a lot of people started wearing it, right.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
They did, and everywhere I went, I mean, it became
this thing, that woman from Michigan. I write about it
in the book. But I was in Saginaw, Michigan, and
a woman came up to me and she had framed
a picture she drew of me, and it said that
woman from Michigan. And I was said, Oh, that's so nice,
and then she showed me she'd also had a tattooed
on the back of her leg. I was like, oh
my god, that's called that's called serious support.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Right, that's so funny.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
But you know, I do think that when when a
bully it comes for you, you need to flip their
their insult and make it your your cause for action.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
And that's what was the reaction, by the way, from him.
Did you hear did he tweet about you again?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Oh? Anytime he tweeted, Just like I'm sure anyone who's
been tweeted about by the former president, you know, we
saw more anger coming my way. But yeah, I mean
I was a frequent target of.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
His, And how did you handle that? Because you know
it hurts on some level. Listen, no matter what when
people are saying nasty, mean things about you, you can
pretend it doesn't it's not wounding. But you know, I
can have some name, this faceless anonymous person on Twitter
saying something mean about me, and actually it's like it's
(25:05):
like stabbing me in the heart a little bit. I
get used to it and I get over it, but
it still kind of hurts.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Right, Yeah, I mean we're we are human. I you know,
talk a little bit about kind of the Whitmers, and
I think being a Whitmer and being gen X, there
maybe are a couple of similarities there right that have
been very pronounced. But Whitmers have short memories and fixed skin.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah, good for you, because God knows you need so
you need those in politics, and you need more than that,
because you need security.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Gretchen Whitmer.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I mean, in twenty twenty, a plot to kidnap and
kill you by a right wing militia group was discovered.
Take us back to that moment. I mean, that's not
a mean tweet. That's a really scary situation. How did
you even begin to process something like that? And you know,
just take us back to what that was like.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
You know, it was really startling, to be honest, that
for one of my briefings. You know, governors were doing
regular briefings around COVID, what the numbers were, what, you know,
what was happening in our states. And I went down
to do one and they'd had a protest at the
capitol and people didn't know I was in my office.
My office actually the working office is across the street from.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
The Capitol and tell us again what the protest was about,
because I think people don't remember maybe what was going on.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
We had I issued a stay at home order. It
was for like three weeks, and everything was going. You know,
people were pretty compliant until the former president singled me
out and then we started seeing protests and then my
legislature turned against and started suing me and trying to
take away my powers, et cetera. And I remember going
down for one of my briefings and looking out at
(26:49):
this protest that they'd organized. It was called Operation Gridlock,
and they brought all their cars downtown and parked in
the street and were making noise. And I knew that
they were going to protest, and I thought, Okay, it's fine.
But then I looked out the window and saw Confederate
flags and Nazi symbolism. And there's a picture in the
book that I took with my phone that had someone
(27:10):
had on the back of their pickup. This halfway is
why we have the Second Amendment, you know, gun threats
and a barbie and a noose that looked like me.
And this was I think the moment where I realized, Wow,
I mean, this has taken a whole new level of danger.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
And sounds like some foreshadowings of January sixth.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Well exactly. I mean, you saw pictures of armed people
in our state capitol standing over the legislature in the
gallery with their automatic rifles. It was absolutely when January
sixth happened, I maybe was one of the few people.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
That felt like I've seen that movie before.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Wasn't a surprise? Yeah, and then when it culminated into
this plot, you know, I think that was one of
those mon.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
How did you learn about the plot?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
The head of my detail so in the Michigan State
Police said, you know, I'd like to sit down with you,
and we chatted and we're both masked up, you know,
we were still in the thick of everything. He said,
I just want you to know you and your family
are safe. But the FBI and the Michigan State Police
are working with some informants who have been a part
of a plot of ten to fourteen people who have
(28:19):
been are planning to putting together a plan to kidnap
and kill you.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
And lord, I mean even hear you, hearing you say that,
it's like, holy shit.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, it was scary, and you know, I wasn't leaving
the house much with the state Police do a wonderful
job keeping my family and me safe.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I was going to say, how did it change life
for you and your family? I'm sure. I mean, you
can't kind of live normally after something like that happens, right.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah, I mean I always tell people I love people.
That's why I do. Yeah work, I do. I love
going into especially going into unexpected places and having conversations
with people.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
That must be fun.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
It is, yeah, I mean, it really is. That's I
got into all eighty three counties in my first election,
and you know, I'd love to ask people what can
I do for you? What's going on in your life?
And now, you know, going into a crowded room and
you know, certain parts of the state, I feel much
more aware. I'm much more concerned about where the exits
(29:21):
are and who's there. And it's it's really sad that
anyone in public life has to think that way, but
we do know.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
You know, I thought it was interesting that you would
like to meet with some of the people who are
planning to kidnap and kill you. That's really admirable, but
also in some ways hard to fathom.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
I was because you think I'm not so well.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I mean, you know, I've done so many stories about
children who have been brutally murdered, and this extraordinary act
of forgiveness on behalf of a parent who wants to
meet someone who killed her own child. I mean, I can't.
I've done many stories about that. So in some ways
(30:09):
I understand your impulse. But what would you like to
learn from them? I imagine it's like you want to
understand what is motivating these extreme right wing individuals.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I do. I would love to talk, especially with one
of the ones that worked with the government and testified
and has shown a little bit of remorse. So I'd
like to just understand how did this come to be
and what was fueling and what was really going on
with people. Because taking up arms and planning to assassinate
a governor who was just making hard decisions to keep
(30:43):
people alive, it's not a rational reaction. So what else
was happening there? What can I learn from this? I
feel like every situation there's got to be a lesson
or I've got to at least try.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Not only what you can learn, but how you can
begin to bridge that divide. I imagine eight.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Absolutely that's what it's all about. And maybe there's nothing
to learn, but maybe there is, and that's why I'd
like to take the opportunity to have that conversation.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
It is interesting for me to hear you say at
the beginning that you appreciate some of the women who
came before you, who had to deal with just endless bullshit.
I might be included in that category in some ways,
in other ways not so much. But I'm curious about
(31:30):
being a female politician today. I'd like to read this
passage from an article about you in The Washington Post
that came out in July of twenty twenty two. Whitmer
is a woman, but she is also an attractive woman,
and her use of executive power, when wielded broadly, seems
to deeply trigger her male antagonists. The Republican leader of
(31:51):
the state Senate, Mike Shirkey, bragged on a hot mic
that he had quote spanked her heart on budget, spanked
her herd on appointments, and also so contemplated inviting her
to a fistfight on the Capitol lawn. Another Republican lawmaker,
Senator Ed mcbroome, complained that Whitmer had been quote neutering
(32:11):
him and his colleagues the cause of the legislature's emasculation.
I mean, this was twenty twenty two, Gretchen Wimmer, This wasn't.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Like eighteen thirty nine.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
So, I mean, sexism is so pervasive and deeply rooted,
and I'm curious how it's manifested itself in your tenure
as governor.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Well, I mean frequently. And one of the great things
is right now in Michigan, we've got all the statewide electeds,
excluding my Lieutenant governor, are all women. And it's been
great to be, i think, surrounded by people who are
ready to step into their and to own the power
(32:59):
of the office that they have been elected to and
to use that power to do the things that they
ran on. It's we feed off one another that gives
you great encouragement to one another. But there's no question
during the pandemic, I remember getting man explained by my
two Republican leaders. They were both in the majority, the
(33:21):
Speaker of the House and that guy Shirky who you
just mentioned, and they were telling me about what the
law was and why I was out of bounce. I'm
the only lawyer in the conversation, Katie, but they're telling
me what the law is, and I thought, I don't
believe any of my meal predecessors would have ever gotten
this kind of a man spleening lecture. And in fact,
(33:42):
after I won the lawsuit, I didn't have to go
out of my way to point it out that I
was actually right on the law. But it is. It's
one of those things that women have to waste energy
on thinking about how do we react to every one
of these all the incoming. Do we make an opportunity
to educate the person about why what they just did
(34:03):
was out of bounds? Do we laugh it off, like
you're silly and I'm not going to give you the
time of day. Do we go dafund for tiding to
hear it?
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Do we take stifle ourselves side it like when someone says,
what is it called? When you suggest something and nobody responds,
then their man suggests it.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
A butterfly effect, Yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Everyone's like, what a great idea.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Yeah, it's the woman put it on the table and
then the man let it give it the way to fly. Yeah.
So it's it's it's challenging, without question, but you know,
as the mom of two daughters, I'm always mindful of that.
I've got to show up and be tough and think
about how I model what is doable, but also how
(34:47):
we hold people accountable and how when women lead we
get shited done.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
And also I think isn't the best revenge doing the
job well right and being right about the law when
you're being explained by two non lawyers what it is.
I mean, it's sort of that is, I think one
of the best ways, like being successful at what you do.
(35:13):
But I think female power is still very threatening to men,
and I think in a way it's not their fault
because they've been culturally conditioned to I think, especially older
men honestly and some younger men, to see gender roles
as so specific and it's so reinforced in so many
ways in our society, whether it's billboards or images. And
(35:38):
you know, I talked to interesting education professor at Harvard
because I had done an hour on gender inequality in
Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and she talked about, you know,
our brains are wired to make these connections, and when
you're surrounded by certain things like your mom is always
doing the laundry or washing the dishes or cooking, you know,
you do make this connection, wiring gets kind of built
(36:01):
into your brain that there are certain roles for women
in certain roles for men. And that's why it's so
important that we have to break these roles, because that
will result in breaking these stereotypes right.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Right, and we have to be intentional about it, and
we're always have to do that. Math is this, the moment?
Is this? How do I respond to this? And how
do we break those molds?
Speaker 1 (36:25):
I have to ask you, as the mother of two daughters,
I also am the mom of two daughters. You have
Sharry twenty two in Sydney twenty how concerned are you?
I mean, I am deeply concerned about what is happening
to reproductive rights in this country. I don't have to
necessarily read the statistics, but maybe it would be helpful
to our listeners. Fourteen states have abortion bands and almost
(36:49):
all circumstances fourteen states. Three states have enacted bans or restrictions,
but abortion remains legal for now as courts determine whether
these laws can take effect. That's Montana, Wyoming, and Iowa.
Seven states have gestational limits raging from six to twenty
two weeks, and twenty five states and DC still have
(37:12):
legal abortion. You know, people used to kind of make
jokes about the Handmaid's Tale, but it does seem eerily
prescient now in terms of what has happened as Roe
was overturned and it was handed back to the States.
So what do you, I mean, honestly, how do you
(37:35):
process all this?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Well? I mean, it's shocking to be in a situation
where a right that I've had my whole life's not
very much in jeopardy for my daughters. To think what
the ability to have reproductive freedom and access to complete
healthcare has meant for generations of women in America, what
it's meant for our economy, what it's meant for our
(37:57):
ability to raise a family and do the things that
we need to do to take care of ourselves and
our families. And to think that our girls may not
always be able to say that they've had these rights.
You know, in Michigan, we would have reverted back to
a nineteen thirty one law with the Dobbs decision, But
I filed a lawsuit because I was getting ready when
(38:18):
Ruth Bader Ginsburg died. I said, we had to scour
everything and see what we can do here, and so
we had an injunction from the day that the Dobbs
decision came down. I took a lot of crap for
filing that lawsuit because people said, oh, it's an overreaction,
they're not going to do that, or you know, you
don't have standing, it's not ripe all the stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Don't worry so much, don't be such an alarmist.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
They'll never do that. But we ignored that. We went
ahead and did it, and so we never lost the
right in Michigan for a minute. It gave the activists
and advocates that opportunity to collect signatures. We had it
on the ballot, and we want overwhelmingly in Michigan. Just
like other states where the people have been given an
opportun way in they say, hell, yes, we expect to
(39:02):
have these rights, whether it's in Ohio or Kentucky, I
mean red states. But it's still very precarious. If you
look at the language in the Supreme Court opinions, whether
it was the Miffey opinion or this new Idaho opinion
where they can give emergency medical care, which was a
positive right that just came out. But if they say, well,
(39:25):
we're not going to do anything more on this. It's
a punt, which means it's still very much in play.
And even in a state like Michigan or New York
or California, where we think that this is settled, it's not.
It's not.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
So the Supreme Court doesn't really change in terms of
who's on it anytime soon. Right? Can there be a
federal law? And how likely would a federal law legalizing
abortion nationwide happen?
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Well, we have to have a democratic majority of both
the House and the US Senate and president who would
sign the bill, which the only one running for president
right now is President Biden, who would actually sign a
bill that restores our reproductive freedom across this country?
Speaker 1 (40:10):
But how likely would it be that that would pass
given the complement of the House and Senate, even on
a good day, even if the Democrats control both houses? Right? Is,
don't you need two thirds and you need a supermajority?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
And that's not in the foreseeable future, sadly, But I
would say that what is in the foreseeable future is
this next presidential election and the opportunity to appoint more
justices and as these cases come back, whether it's someone
who now does have standing or it's one of the
other procedural reasons that they didn't actually decide the merits
(40:46):
of reproductive rights. Who's on that court really matters more
than ever, and the next president the next four years
may have a couple of appointments.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
After this break.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Rereteus thoughts on recent ethical breaches at the Supreme Court.
In a word, she says, it's scary. She'll tell us
why right after this. You know, I'm curious as a lawyer, Gretchen,
(41:25):
how you feel about the Supreme Court these days. You know,
they've gone down in terms of the level of respect
people feel or the trust they have in the High Court.
Really weird stuff going on with Clarence Thomas ethically and
Samuel Alito flying the upside down flag that was really
(41:47):
the symbol for insurrectionists, even though his wife flew it.
It was their mutual domicile after all, I mean, what
the hell is going on with them?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Yeah? Can we just talk about like Bob Menendez and
Justice a little boy, I mean their wives for yeah. Anyway, Yeah,
you know, I have I feel really really you know,
unsettled by everything that's happening with the Supreme Court, because
as a as a public servant, as someone who's taken
(42:19):
oaths to the Michigan Constitution, the US Constitution, as a
lawyer who as an officer of the Court, I take
all of these ethics and responsibilities very seriously. I know
that confidence in our democratic institutions is plummeting, and now
that it applies to the Court as well, and it's
scary because those are the underpinnings of this democracy. And
(42:42):
if I'm not confident in the Court that I've been
raised and educated to revere, I don't know how how
anyone can be. And I think that's very worrisome. I'd
love to see the Court actually have some ethics laws
that they have to follow and they get held accountable
to because I think this is just really corrosive for
our democracy.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
And I guess they made an attempt to, but they
really didn't have any teeth. Jodi Kanter did a lot
of reporting on this for The New York Times, and
I interviewed her and she said that these ethics laws
basically didn't have any meat to them. And it seems
to me like it's high time for these justices to
be held to account for some of their behavior. And
(43:28):
I mean, they're so biased obviously, And I don't know,
how do you find a Supreme Court justice in this
day and age that isn't biased one way or another, right?
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Well, And I think you know the fact that they
went into Congress and said that Roe was the settled
law of the land. They flat out wide to Congress.
I mean, it's really stunning when you step back and
think about all the different ways that the standards and
the ethics and confidence in these institutions has been eroded.
(43:59):
When you've got three appointees who say one thing and
do the other and betrayed the people, it's really destructive.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
But it doesn't seem like it's going to change anytime
soon because how old is the oldest justice? I have
to look this up, But doesn't seem like anyone or
any of them are particularly near retirement, does it?
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Well? In Washington, do you see the average age of
services quite old? So?
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Right, So, I don't maybe the legislative thing, which seems
unlikely too. So we're kind of in a bit of
a bind when it comes to abortion rights.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Right and yet where we are isn't locked, and it
could definitely slide backwards. And I think that's the big
concern that I have talking to Michigan Anders who work
so hard to get us on the right side of
this issue now to know it could all be for
naught with you know, a future Supreme Court ruling.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah. I know that you are part of President by
Re election campaign, but I wanted to ask you about
something he said during the twenty twenty election. In twenty twenty,
Joe Biden appeared at a campaign stop and he was
with you, Kamala Harris, and Corey Booker, and he said
(45:17):
he viewed himself as a bridge, not as anything else.
I interviewed Vice President Harris not too long ago, and
I said, Hey, did you think that bridge was going
to take four years to build or eight years to build?
Because I think a lot of people really did think
that Joe Biden, given his age, was going to be
(45:38):
a one term president.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
WTF.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Gretchen Whitmer, you know, I remember we were on that stage.
It was actually the last rally of the whole campaign
because COVID, the first two cases in COVID came the
night of the election in Michigan, and that's why he
was there. We were having our primary and I remember
it vividly because we were all, you know, hugging one
(46:02):
another but not shaking hands. And it just like makes
me cringe thinking about it because we didn't know its
respiratorially spread to talking to one another but shaking hands.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
But anyway, I'm glad you didn't get him sick.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Oh God, But you know, I do think that that
was that was what he communicated. He has gotten so
much done in four years. He's got he wants to
continue the work for the next four The field is set.
I know people keep saying, well what about this one?
About that? The field is set, and we've got a
(46:36):
very stark choice in front of us in this country.
And the good news is future in future elections. There's
a very deep bench of incredibly talented democratic leaders in
this country right now. I think about all of my colleagues,
you know, everyone from from Joshapiro to Wesmore to Michelle
(46:58):
Leuhan Grisham to you know, Gavin Newsome, JB. Pritzker.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
I mean, there's Mitch Landrew kind of seemed Mitch Landry
semi interested when I asked it the other day. Gina,
I hear her name often.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
It's I mean, it really is a deep bench of
incredibly talented people, deeper than we've had in a long time.
So I think it's exciting to think about what does
the next the next one look like. But right now
we got a stark choice. So that's WTF, Katie.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
One person you left out of that list was Gretchen Whitmer.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Well, I'm honored to be included with that group.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
I do think that whenever I think of future leaders,
inevitably your name comes up, which is a really nice compliment,
and you know, an incredible show of support. And you know,
obviously you're not gonna tell me, yes, Katie, I'm running
in twenty twenty eight and i'd like to announce it
on your podcast, But you know, does it appeal to
(47:56):
you this idea of potentially one day running for president?
And I mean, that's a huge, huge thing, And you know,
given some of the threats on your life already and
your family and just the grueling nature of running for
president for any person, man or woman, how do you
(48:18):
think about it right now? I know it's in the future,
and I'm not this is not a gotcha question. I'm
not trying to pin you down, but I'm just curious,
as as a person who believes deeply in public service.
How you think about it, Well.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
The truth is I'm not thinking about it right now.
I'm really not, and i don't know what happens. I've
got two and a half more years of being governor.
We've got to get through this crucial election. Got a
lot of work that I want to get done. You know,
the possibility of that is something that is an overwhelming
thought that would have to be, you know, given the
(48:52):
proper attention and consideration. And I'm not in any position
to do that right now. So when people say what
are you going to do after yours on being governor?
I like to say, I'm want to walk the earth
for a year and figure out what it is I
want to do next. I say that kind of joking,
but I do care about where we are. I do
want to be a part of a solution making room,
(49:13):
at the table for voices that haven't always been there.
And if I've got something to contribute, whether it's you know,
as a candidate or as a supporter of a great candidate,
I'm going to stay engaged one way or another.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
I also think, like, if your head's not in the
game for what you're doing right now, You've got a
huge role, a lot of responsibility. If you're thinking too
much about the future, you're going to screw up the present, right.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Yeah, absolutely, you can't take your eye off the ball.
I mean, these are heavy duty jobs and people are
relying on us. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
And one thing people are relying on you, Governor, is
to help Joe Biden win the state of Michigan. And
right now President Biden and former President Trump are running
neck and neck there. How are you going to do that?
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Well, I've told everyone, don't clutch your pearls when we're
down two points, don't celebrate when we're up due points.
Just make peace with the fact that this is going
to be close all the way through the election. I
always remind people months out before my reelect, everyone was
right in my political obituary, Katie, and they said they
don't no way was that woman from Michigan who locked
people down and Democrat in the White House. No way,
(50:24):
because you get re elected in a state like Michigan,
and I ended up winning by almost eleven points because
we showed up and we got into every community. And
that's the kind of work that we're continuing to do
and on behalf of President Biden. You know people are
They're good, hard working people. They're busy, They're not consuming
(50:45):
information the way that you and I are. They've got
to get the kids off to school, get to the job,
get the bills paid. I mean, people are trying to
get by. It's a hard time for a lot of.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
Folks in the cost of living. Do you think President
Biden is really focused in off on the price of
groceries and gas, because that seems to be to me
an animating factor in how people are feeling right now
about these two candidates.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
I think you can't tell someone how to feel. You
can't change the stress that someone's feeling in their household
budget by saying, well, look at we've got historically low
unemployment and take home wages and our economies better than
other countries. That doesn't make them feel better. We've got
to ask what is it that you need? What can
we do? And did you know that the president has
(51:33):
helped you keep more money in your pocket because of
all these investments that he's making, whether it's in infrastructure,
or it's in clean energy, or it's in debt relief.
And so I think drawing those connections are going to
be really crucial for us as we're going into the
next few months. But it's going to be tense and
we've got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
Michigan has the largest population of air of American and
Muslim voters, many of them strongly opposed President Biden's handling
of Israel Hamas war. I know you've been talking, and
I know you've made great efforts to reach out to
the Arab American community in your state, But how concerned
(52:11):
are you not only Gretchen about how they'll be voting
in Michigan, but also about young people. You know, it's
interesting a lot of polls show the economy is still
top of mind for young people. But you know, if
you look at the protests on college campuses and this
wedge that this war has put into place, not only
(52:35):
within the Democratic Party but almost generationally, how worried are
you about all those things coming together and hurting the president.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
Well, I'm concerned. I definitely see the path through Michigan,
and we're working hard to ensure that we earn the
support of all of these communities. I know that a
Trump Part two would make things measurably worse, and I
think a lot of people know that, whether it was
(53:07):
around the Muslim ban or how he talks about, you know,
the war that's playing out in Gaza with Israel, that
we know that he represents something that would make actually
the situation worse. All that being said, we've got to
recognize that there are a lot of people that are
hurt in right now. In Michigan. We've got a huge
contention of Arab American voters, many of whom are also
(53:31):
Muslim voters, some of whom are also Palestinians. They're not
all one monolithic group, but most are one or two
degrees of separation from someone who's died in the fighting,
someone who's trying to feed their family still over in Gaza.
There's a lot of guilt being here and sadness that
(53:51):
American dollars are going into, you know, the pain that
their loved ones are feeling over there. Also say, we've
got a robust Jewish community her gosh.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
While straddling those two groups and thinking dialectically, which is
increasingly hard to find, yes and thinking must be really difficult.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
It is. And these are communities that have lived in
harmony for decades in Michigan, who've always been both have
always been a part of the coalition that I've been
fortunate to have the support of, and so I do
think that there's more work to do with a lot
of these voters. I think we will earn back the
(54:33):
support of most of them, but I think that we're
going to need to earn support of a lot of
new voters too, And young people, like you said, are
they see the humanitarian crisis playing out and they're very
upset about it. My own kids, I've had conversations, you know,
hard conversations with to know that they are feeling very
empathetic and sad and demoralized and angry about, you know,
(54:55):
the violence that they're seeing playing out every day. So
I think that my job in Michigan is to make
sure both these communities feel seen, heard and supported and
safe here at home, but also to try to find
to bridge that divide. And it takes a lot of work,
but it starts with hard conversations and continues with.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
Them and a lot of listening. I imagine too, right.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
Listening as a superpower, Katie. I've learned so much from
people if you ask them what they need, what they want,
or what's going on in their lives. They will tell you,
and politicians who make the mistake of not doing that,
I think are missing, missing the plot, missing what's really
happening with people and the ability to help them.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
Gretchen Whitmer, The book is true, Gretch. What I've learned
about life, leadership and everything in between has been such
a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (55:46):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy
world reach out. You can leave a short message at
six oh nine five point two five five five, or
you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would
love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
(56:17):
of iHeartMedia and Katiekuric Media. The executive producers are Me,
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martx,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
(56:37):
or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app or visit
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podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Two
Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question.
Back in twenty twenty, then candidate Joe Biden appeared on
a Michigan stage with Kamala Harris, Cory Booker and my
guest today, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Look, I view myself as a bridge, not as anything else.
There's an entire generation of leaders you saw stand behind me.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
They are the future of this country.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
They're the people who are going to.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Many people took that to mean that he'd be one
term president. With his re election campaign and crisis. Coming
off a rough debate performance in June, some people are
scratching their heads, asking was the bridge going to take
this long to build? When I talked to just about
anyone about the future of politics, Gretchen Whitmer's name inevitably
(00:58):
comes up. Her leadership in Michigan has protected reproductive rights
and kept the state together through the darkest days of COVID,
during which she withstood some pretty nasty comments by then
President Trump. You'll hear more about that in a minute.
The Whitmer roots run deep in state politics. Her father
was a part of two Michigan governor's administrations. And her
(01:21):
grandfather was superintendent of schools when integration led to protests,
bus bombings, and kkk rallies. One of her family's mottos,
the Whitmers have quote, short memories and thick skins. Gretchen
also likes to say listening is a superpower. Those qualities
have helped her stay connected to her constituents and focus
(01:44):
on the big issues they care about. But in this
deeply divided country, she's face forces that don't want her
to succeed, and worse, she was the target of a
pretty harrowing kidnapping plot, which she also talks about in
our conversation. It's a bit of a cliche, I know,
but I think it's safe to say Gretchen Whitmer is
(02:05):
one to watch, part of the new generation of leaders
to whom the baton will be passed, and for those
who are angry about the so called garontocracy we have now,
she seems poised to take on an even bigger job
than the governor of Michigan. On a personal note, I
really enjoyed our time together. She is refreshingly candid and
(02:26):
easy to talk to, even when it comes to some
pretty embarrassing moments. Here's our conversation, recorded in Aspen, Colorado,
during the Ideas Festival. Gretchen Whitmer, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
We're doing this from Aspen, Colorado, a beautiful place, although
sadly it's raining a little today, but you'll have to
come back to Aspen and spend some time here.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I would love to I'd love to ski, so I'd
like to come in the winter.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Oh my gosh, you should. You should is fabulous here,
and I'm a really terrible skier, so I can say
from my friends who know how to ski, we're going
to be talking. Governor whit Murphy, I call you Gretchen
because I kind of feel like Gretchen Katie is more comfortable.
You have written a book called True Gretch what I've
learned about life, leadership and everything in between. I'm curious,
(03:20):
why now, Why was this something you wanted to do
at this moment in time.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, one of the questions that I get asked the most,
whether I'm traveling in Michigan or outside of the state,
is with all the heavy stuff, the threats and the
ugliness and pandemics and flooding and protests, how do I
say positive? Why do I want to keep doing this job,
and I think that this is a heavy year. People
(03:45):
are feeling lots of emotions, lots of strife and struggle,
and the political rhetoric is hot, and I thought, if
I can put something light out into the world, right now,
that's what it's all about. So these are ten things
I've learned over the course of my life. Different I
tell stories about when I learned them and how I
use these lessons to get through these last six years
as governor of Michigan. And if I give you a laugh,
(04:06):
or there's a little inspiration, or it's just some light
reading and the heavy time, that's what it's all about.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
It seems to me that it's designed in some ways
to introduce you to an audience and for people really
to get to know you, because you're very honest about
a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
Gretchen, Well, I guess.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I mean, I'm not a perfect person, and I've learned
things from my own mistakes or learned things from wiser
people than I am, and have really been able to,
I think, grow through some of those struggles. And if
there's a lesson that I've learned that might make someone's
day a little easier help them navigate something, then I've
(04:44):
accomplished what I set out to do.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
I really appreciate you being honest and vulnerable in this book.
You know, I wrote a memoir a few years ago,
and I was extremely transparent about, you know, my accomplishments,
things I was proud of, but also my flaw us
and things that I regretted or wish I had done better.
And I ended up getting mightily criticized for those things.
(05:08):
But why do you think it's important for leaders, and
maybe particularly women leaders, to be honest about their journey
and some of the mistakes they've made along the way.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Well, I think I'm lucky that there were women who
came before me who made it easier for me to
show up as myself and to be that honest. You know,
there's a recent article that Rebecca Traster wrote, and she
wrote about how Jennifer Granholm, the first governor of Michigan,
who is now our energy secretary, how she'd cut her
hair short and tried to you know, not.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Kind of masculate, masculate herself, if that's a word.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Right, exactly exactly. And I think that because she and
people like Hillary Clinton came before and took so much heat.
It's made it easier for people in my generation to
show up as we are. And I'm hoping that the
things that I've had to navigate, the generation comes after
me doesn't have to. And I think that's why talking
about it, really identifying it, and being authentic and showing
(06:07):
up that way is important, and showing people that you
are not a perfect person and that you're here better
than anyone else.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
And in a way it gives other women permission to
not be perfect exactly, because that's a recipe for disaster.
Let's face it, because no one is.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Well.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Let's talk a little bit about your life. You were
born in Lansing in nineteen seventy one. Politics. I learned
so much about you by the way in this book,
and I thought I knew a fair amount about you.
But it was a family business. Your mom was a Democrat.
She was a lawyer and served as assistant Attorney general.
Your dad, meanwhile, was a Republican and served in Governor
(06:45):
Milliken's cabinet before becoming an insurance executive. Looking back, was
it a foregone conclusion growing up with these two figures
obviously in your life, that you'd go into politics.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
God, No, no, no, I mean did their service turn
you often anyway? No public service that you know. Their
generations of my family have been in public service. And
at the end of the book, I talk about my
grandfather who was a superintendent during court ordered bussing and
had the ku Klux Klan target his house and bomb
buses in Pontiac, Michigan while he was superintendent. So I
(07:20):
always revered public service, but I thought I was going
to be a sports broadcaster, to be honest.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yes, they were very funny man.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
You know ESPN. When I was growing up. I love sports.
Went to Michigan State to do with that, and it
was my dad who said, you know, the capital is
right down the street. So few people understand how state
government works. Why don't you apply for an internship and
see if you can get one and just check it out.
Maybe you hate it, but you've had an opportunity. Maybe
you love it. And that was really great advice. I
(07:49):
got involved and passionate about public policy and really changed
the trajectory of my life.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
I feel like every young person, honestly, and I regret
not doing that to be an intern in some form
of government, because I think part of the problem in
Gretchen is so many people really don't truly understand how
government works. Civics education has been kind of not necessarily prioritized.
(08:16):
Sandra Day O'Connor, you know, that was her big fight
in the later years of her life. And I think
there's nothing like seeing government at work with your very
own eyes.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I couldn't agree more. I think that we need to
do better in terms of civic education, for sure. I
think that it's easy to undermine the institutions of our
democracy when people don't know, or don't trust, or don't
understand how it works. So giving people that exposure it
was a great suggestion of my father's. I've made the
same suggestion to both my girls because I want them
(08:50):
to also be, you know, consumers of information and active
in their in their government, whether it's they hold office
one day, which I doubt either one of them will do, yeah,
or it is just simply as a citizen or business
owner or whatever their path is.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, as safe works exactly. I think as a citizen
where we all have that responsibility. I wanted to ask
you about the fact that your parents had a mixed marriage,
so to speak. Right, your dad was a Republican. Your
mom was a Democrat. I know they ultimately divorced when
you were just six years old. But how do you
(09:28):
think being exposed to different political perspectives shaped you, Because
it's very unusual. Only twenty one percent of marriages today
are mixed party, according to the American Family Survey.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Well, I think it tells you a lot about where
the parties have gone over the years. Right, my father,
It's really funny. He was a part of the Milligan
and Romney administrations in Michigan. Romney, of course, the name
everyone knows.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yes, amidst dad, Right, it's dad, George Romney, Right, George
Romney exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
But it was a time when the Republican Party they
you know, there were a lot of pro choice people
in the Republican Party. They were Milliken was a great environmentalist.
Protecting the Great Lakes was something that he was very
passionate about equal housing. I mean, it was a different time,
But I do think that one of the lessons that
I've always taken with me and all offices I've held
(10:22):
is that no one person or one party has all
the answers that we've got to be able to talk
to one another and you're never going to find what
you can agree on if you're not even talking to
each other. And I think part of the discouragement that
people have, justifiably is they look at what's going on
in our politics and it's so personal, it's so ugly.
(10:43):
It's sometimes terrifying, you know. I talk about the all
the threats that have become normalized in today's politics in America.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
So scary, right, And I'm going to talk to you
about that in a moment, and also about polarization. But
I do want to touch on a little bit about
your teenage years, because you describe yourself as a bit
of a hellien as a teenager, drinking and getting suspended
from school. You even tell Gretchen one pretty cringe story
(11:11):
of throwing up on your high school principle after he
discovered you you drunk in the parking lot.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, oh my god, moment. And I would have killed
my daughter. So if they'd done anything that stupid. But
you know, I was.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
I ran with a fast ground in high school.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
It was a lot of fun, Katie. It sounds like it,
but it also you know, I wasn't particularly challenged or
interested in what I was you know, learning in school.
And it was that moment. You know, I got in
a lot of trouble. I was suspended, my mother wanted
to kill me. And the worst thing is my dad
goes silent when he's angry. I'm a little more like
(11:47):
my dad. Yeah, and I'm like that too.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Not a good not a good treat.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
By the way, a silent parent who's a.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Silent treatment is not a good way to go.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
But you know, I really got my ag together after that.
I became the most improved student. I got an award
for that, and later in high school and went out
to Michigan State, which was a very much in doubt
if I could get in at one point in high school.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Oh really, But so academically you weren't particularly strong.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
No, I was not disciplined. I had all the raw materials,
but it was not disciplined in the slightest. And I
started to get my stride in college. And then law
school is when it really clicked for me. I loved
law school. I graduated summa cum laude and was loved it.
Finally was challenged and focused and surrounded by people who
(12:35):
were similarly motivated.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
This should give hope to anyone who's got a bit
of a Hellian as a teenager right now that he
or she is not necessarily lost cause, right, absolutely, But
it did create some tension with your mom. You write
about that, right.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
She wanted to kill me, And like I said, if
either of my daughters had been that difficulty, I would
have felt the same exact way. But ultimately went to
college and she became one of my very best friends.
And you know, I talk a little bit about the
time in my life that I think really forged who
I am today, and I became a Sandwich generation member
(13:11):
in my late twenties, my mom was dying of brain cancer.
I had just given birth to my first child and
was both of their primary caregiver, and it was that
experience I think that really made who I am today.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, I read about that, and I'm so sorry because
she was just fifty nine when she died, and you
were thirty one, as you said, with just one daughter
at the time.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Two month old.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yet two month old when she passed away. So how
long was she sick, Gretchen?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
You know, the prognosis was four to six months, and
she lived for about eighteen And I think, you know,
having that child to look forward to was a motive
was helpful for her to keep her spirits up. But
we had good healthcare, she had a supportive family, and
she had a heck of a wonderful attay to like
she was.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, I read in your book she was kind of,
you know, cracking jokes and being funny and sort of
I guess had a bit of a mischievous personality.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Yeah, right, we talked about Gallows humor. Like you know,
I talked to my mom's sister a few years ago
during the pandemic, and she's the closest thing I have
to my mom. And I just said, Aunt, Betsy, you know,
if my mom were here, what would she say to
me right now? And she said, I don't know what
she would say, Gretchen, but you're so much like her.
You can find something humorous even in the darkest, hardest moment,
(14:32):
and that is a huge superpower. And I thought that
was really the nicest thing that I could have heard
in that moment.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And it's nice that you got that from your mom. Right.
And another thing you got is that you often wear
bright pink. I guess you'd call it fusia, right, And
you're wearing fuscha pants today because that was your mom's
favorite color.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
She loved it. She was, you know, at the Attorney
General's office and one of her colleagues she'd worn a pink,
bright pink blaze her to work and she was getting
ready to go to court and one of the colleagues said,
you can't wear pink to court, Sherry, And she said,
Fusta is my power color and went off. And you know,
I had a spectacular showing in court. And I always
(15:13):
love that story. But she loved pink. And when I
kicked off my campaign, the women's marches were happening. We
all were showing up with our pink hats on. So
pink'spen this kind of interesting theme. And as the mom
of two.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Daughters, one named Sherry, yeah, after your mom.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Right exactly, it's kind of a color that makes me
happy and feel energized and strong.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
All right, Well, I like pink too. So let's talk
about twenty thirteen. You were serving as Michigan's Senate minority leader,
and that year state Republicans tried to push through a
bill requiring women in Michigan to buy extra health insurance
for abortion coverage. It was rape insurance as you called it.
(15:56):
On the day the bill came up for a vote,
you tossed aside your prepared remarks.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Why, well, I had an internal strife going. I was
getting ready to speak. We had a situation where the
majority party, the Republicans, would not hold a single hearing,
let women testify, let doctors and nurses testify, like no conversation.
They just wanted to jam through this new policy. And
(16:25):
I thought, I have a MIC, I need to use it.
And I was trying to talk my colleague into telling
his and his wife story. I thought maybe that would
engender some sympathy or at least open up some minds.
They'd been desperately wanting a family. She'd gone through IVF.
It didn't you know, she had a miscarriage, but it
wasn't complete, and so she had to go to the
(16:46):
hospital to have an abortion. Call it a DNC, but
it's an abortion. And had the law been what it
was that they were pushing through the thirty thousand dollars
hospital bill would not have been covered by their insurance.
Was desperately wanted pregnancy. And I asked him if he
could tell the story, and he couldn't. It was just
too recent and too hard. Yeah. I remember walking back
(17:09):
to my desk thinking, God, how can I ask him
to bear himself to the world when I too have
a story that might resonate with people. And so I
decided to share the story for the first time publicly
that I was raped when I was in college as
a freshman. And I grabbed two of my staff people,
one woman, one man, and I said, I shared with
(17:30):
him what had happened. I said, I think thinking about
telling this on the floor and the woman I worked
with said, don't do it. You're not going to change
a single vote. She wanted to protect me because she
knew she was savvy, she knew what was going to happen.
And the man said, I have no advice. You got
to do what you think the right thing to do is.
You know. They're both shocked. And I told the story
(17:50):
and it didn't change a damn vote. Katie, and I
remember after the vote came, one of the guys on
the other side of the aisle came up to me
and said, you're so brave. My wife too was raped
when she was in college, and I wish I could
have voted with you. And I heard that from him,
and I just was like, you've just acknowledged that I
(18:12):
cast the right boat, and you wish you could have,
but you didn't. And it was gutting. But by the
next morning I got into the office and we'd had
hundreds of phone calls and emails and faxes. This was
ten years ago, so faxes were quite a thing. And
that's when I realized, Okay, I laid myself bare, but
(18:32):
I gave voice to something that needed to be given
and people felt seen and heard and represented, and that
was for me, the good part of doing it. And
ten years later, we kept the fight up, and as
governor of Michigan, I got to sign the repeal of
that long the ten year anniversary of.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
It, which was so awesome as a woman who believes
deeply in reproductive rights. Thank you for that, well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I thought it was a good opportunity to show people
that these fights are heard. It can feel very demoralizing
and discouraging, but we're right on these issues and we
can win them. It might take longer than it should, though,
but we can win them.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
When we come back. Gretchen's time and Trump's Twitter crosshairs,
I've been there too. Trump called me a has been,
but I'm still here. Donald Moore after the break. If
you want to get smarter every morning with a breakdown
of the news and fascinating takes on health and wellness
and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter, Wake
(19:36):
Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. I want
to talk to you about the abortion landscape in a moment,
but first I want to talk to you about being
elected as governor of Michigan. That was in twenty eighteen.
(19:59):
Two years later, the pandemic started and your state was
one of the hardest hit. You write in a not
very flattering way about what President Trump did during that time,
which is really frustrating even reading it in retrospect. Of
course we heard about this at the time, But can
you describe sort of the kind of hunger Games environment.
(20:20):
I think actually you described it in a cruel hunger
Game style scramble for equipment, So tell us what that
was like and what was going on at that moment.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, it's hard to remember, right, COVID has really I think.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
It feels like yesterday, and it feels like, you know,
thousand years ago exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, we at the beginning of the pandemic. I know
that Washington State was head first, but then very quickly
COVID was spreading like wildfire through New York City, Detroit,
New Orleans, and Chicago. We were all desperately trying to
just get masks. Our hospitals were filled with COVID patients.
(20:59):
We had doctors and nurses wearing masks for the same
mask for weeks on end. And we were just desperately
trying to get masks and all the ppe that we needed.
And we were asking the federal government for help. And
you know, the president at the time, former President Trump,
had been saying, you know, we're not the nation's supply
(21:19):
or you need to go find these things.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
And so we were if that's not the federal government's
role to at least help coordinate, I don't know what
is right in a national crisis.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Exactly when Americans are dying, when our hospitals are filled,
we had makeshift morgues with refrigerated trucks outside of hospitals.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
I mean, you know, I living in New York City,
I live across from Lenox Hill Hospital, and I witnessed
the same thing.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
It was chilling and devastating, and people were scared, and
I was scared. It wasn't so much that I was
mad that that we were being kind of left to
our own devices, but I was fearful for the people
that I I serve, And so we set up a
quickly set up like a global procurement office, trying to
(22:05):
get masks, and when we would get an order confirmed,
all of a sudden, we'd be informed that no, the
federal government actually was going to commandeer that. And so
it was like we were told to go out and
find these and then when we did, we were undermined.
And so it was a really scary time and.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Fear was and you spoke, and you spoke out about
how scary it was and the lack of federal strategy.
As a result, the president at the time, Donald Trump,
zeroed in on you, famously calling you that woman from Michigan.
By the way, I'm a member of that club I've
been tweeted about by Donald Trump.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
He called me.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
It has been a number of years ago, and I'm
still here, so that's good. But you know you, I
thought it was really funny and great how you turned
that Michigan woman into an asset instead of a liability.
Talk to us about that.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I think, you know, I've learned over the year, so
you know how to deal with bullies, right.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
It's oh, in fact, you were bullied, remember, I mean remember,
of course you remember, but you wrote about it in
your book that you had your share of bullies growing up.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah, and I think it's important to recognize, listen, take
their weapon and make it your shield. When he called
me that woman from Michigan, you know, was I hurt, No,
not at all, But was I worried about what he
would exact retribution and not work with us on you know,
all the things we needed during the pandemic. But I
(23:35):
decided to wear a T shirt that someone from the
great Michigan Etsy community had made and sent to me
that said that woman from Michigan. I wore it on
Trevor Noah's show.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
And a lot of people started wearing it, right.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
They did, and everywhere I went, I mean, it became
this thing, that woman from Michigan. I write about it
in the book. But I was in Saginaw, Michigan, and
a woman came up to me and she had framed
a picture she drew of me, and it said that
woman from Michigan. And I was said, Oh, that's so nice,
and then she showed me she'd also had a tattooed
on the back of her leg. I was like, oh
my god, that's called that's called serious support.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Right, that's so funny.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
But you know, I do think that when when a
bully it comes for you, you need to flip their
their insult and make it your your cause for action.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
And that's what was the reaction, by the way, from him.
Did you hear did he tweet about you again?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Oh? Anytime he tweeted, Just like I'm sure anyone who's
been tweeted about by the former president, you know, we
saw more anger coming my way. But yeah, I mean
I was a frequent target of.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
His, And how did you handle that? Because you know
it hurts on some level. Listen, no matter what when
people are saying nasty, mean things about you, you can
pretend it doesn't it's not wounding. But you know, I
can have some name, this faceless anonymous person on Twitter
saying something mean about me, and actually it's like it's
(25:05):
like stabbing me in the heart a little bit. I
get used to it and I get over it, but
it still kind of hurts.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Right, Yeah, I mean we're we are human. I you know,
talk a little bit about kind of the Whitmers, and
I think being a Whitmer and being gen X, there
maybe are a couple of similarities there right that have
been very pronounced. But Whitmers have short memories and fixed skin.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah, good for you, because God knows you need so
you need those in politics, and you need more than that,
because you need security.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Gretchen Whitmer.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I mean, in twenty twenty, a plot to kidnap and
kill you by a right wing militia group was discovered.
Take us back to that moment. I mean, that's not
a mean tweet. That's a really scary situation. How did
you even begin to process something like that? And you know,
just take us back to what that was like.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
You know, it was really startling, to be honest, that
for one of my briefings. You know, governors were doing
regular briefings around COVID, what the numbers were, what, you know,
what was happening in our states. And I went down
to do one and they'd had a protest at the
capitol and people didn't know I was in my office.
My office actually the working office is across the street from.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
The Capitol and tell us again what the protest was about,
because I think people don't remember maybe what was going on.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
We had I issued a stay at home order. It
was for like three weeks, and everything was going. You know,
people were pretty compliant until the former president singled me
out and then we started seeing protests and then my
legislature turned against and started suing me and trying to
take away my powers, et cetera. And I remember going
down for one of my briefings and looking out at
(26:49):
this protest that they'd organized. It was called Operation Gridlock,
and they brought all their cars downtown and parked in
the street and were making noise. And I knew that
they were going to protest, and I thought, Okay, it's fine.
But then I looked out the window and saw Confederate
flags and Nazi symbolism. And there's a picture in the
book that I took with my phone that had someone
(27:10):
had on the back of their pickup. This halfway is
why we have the Second Amendment, you know, gun threats
and a barbie and a noose that looked like me.
And this was I think the moment where I realized, Wow,
I mean, this has taken a whole new level of danger.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
And sounds like some foreshadowings of January sixth.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Well exactly. I mean, you saw pictures of armed people
in our state capitol standing over the legislature in the
gallery with their automatic rifles. It was absolutely when January
sixth happened, I maybe was one of the few people.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
That felt like I've seen that movie before.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Wasn't a surprise? Yeah, and then when it culminated into
this plot, you know, I think that was one of
those mon.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
How did you learn about the plot?
Speaker 2 (27:58):
The head of my detail so in the Michigan State
Police said, you know, I'd like to sit down with you,
and we chatted and we're both masked up, you know,
we were still in the thick of everything. He said,
I just want you to know you and your family
are safe. But the FBI and the Michigan State Police
are working with some informants who have been a part
of a plot of ten to fourteen people who have
(28:19):
been are planning to putting together a plan to kidnap
and kill you.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
And lord, I mean even hear you, hearing you say that,
it's like, holy shit.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yeah, it was scary, and you know, I wasn't leaving
the house much with the state Police do a wonderful
job keeping my family and me safe.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I was going to say, how did it change life
for you and your family? I'm sure. I mean, you
can't kind of live normally after something like that happens, right.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah, I mean I always tell people I love people.
That's why I do. Yeah work, I do. I love
going into especially going into unexpected places and having conversations
with people.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
That must be fun.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
It is, yeah, I mean, it really is. That's I
got into all eighty three counties in my first election,
and you know, I'd love to ask people what can
I do for you? What's going on in your life?
And now, you know, going into a crowded room and
you know, certain parts of the state, I feel much
more aware. I'm much more concerned about where the exits
(29:21):
are and who's there. And it's it's really sad that
anyone in public life has to think that way, but
we do know.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
You know, I thought it was interesting that you would
like to meet with some of the people who are
planning to kidnap and kill you. That's really admirable, but
also in some ways hard to fathom.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
I was because you think I'm not so well.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I mean, you know, I've done so many stories about
children who have been brutally murdered, and this extraordinary act
of forgiveness on behalf of a parent who wants to
meet someone who killed her own child. I mean, I can't.
I've done many stories about that. So in some ways
(30:09):
I understand your impulse. But what would you like to
learn from them? I imagine it's like you want to
understand what is motivating these extreme right wing individuals.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I do. I would love to talk, especially with one
of the ones that worked with the government and testified
and has shown a little bit of remorse. So I'd
like to just understand how did this come to be
and what was fueling and what was really going on
with people. Because taking up arms and planning to assassinate
a governor who was just making hard decisions to keep
(30:43):
people alive, it's not a rational reaction. So what else
was happening there? What can I learn from this? I
feel like every situation there's got to be a lesson
or I've got to at least try.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Not only what you can learn, but how you can
begin to bridge that divide. I imagine eight.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Absolutely that's what it's all about. And maybe there's nothing
to learn, but maybe there is, and that's why I'd
like to take the opportunity to have that conversation.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
It is interesting for me to hear you say at
the beginning that you appreciate some of the women who
came before you, who had to deal with just endless bullshit.
I might be included in that category in some ways,
in other ways not so much. But I'm curious about
(31:30):
being a female politician today. I'd like to read this
passage from an article about you in The Washington Post
that came out in July of twenty twenty two. Whitmer
is a woman, but she is also an attractive woman,
and her use of executive power, when wielded broadly, seems
to deeply trigger her male antagonists. The Republican leader of
(31:51):
the state Senate, Mike Shirkey, bragged on a hot mic
that he had quote spanked her heart on budget, spanked
her herd on appointments, and also so contemplated inviting her
to a fistfight on the Capitol lawn. Another Republican lawmaker,
Senator Ed mcbroome, complained that Whitmer had been quote neutering
(32:11):
him and his colleagues the cause of the legislature's emasculation.
I mean, this was twenty twenty two, Gretchen Wimmer, This wasn't.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Like eighteen thirty nine.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
So, I mean, sexism is so pervasive and deeply rooted,
and I'm curious how it's manifested itself in your tenure
as governor.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Well, I mean frequently. And one of the great things
is right now in Michigan, we've got all the statewide electeds,
excluding my Lieutenant governor, are all women. And it's been
great to be, i think, surrounded by people who are
ready to step into their and to own the power
(32:59):
of the office that they have been elected to and
to use that power to do the things that they
ran on. It's we feed off one another that gives
you great encouragement to one another. But there's no question
during the pandemic, I remember getting man explained by my
two Republican leaders. They were both in the majority, the
(33:21):
Speaker of the House and that guy Shirky who you
just mentioned, and they were telling me about what the
law was and why I was out of bounce. I'm
the only lawyer in the conversation, Katie, but they're telling
me what the law is, and I thought, I don't
believe any of my meal predecessors would have ever gotten
this kind of a man spleening lecture. And in fact,
(33:42):
after I won the lawsuit, I didn't have to go
out of my way to point it out that I
was actually right on the law. But it is. It's
one of those things that women have to waste energy
on thinking about how do we react to every one
of these all the incoming. Do we make an opportunity
to educate the person about why what they just did
(34:03):
was out of bounds? Do we laugh it off, like
you're silly and I'm not going to give you the
time of day. Do we go dafund for tiding to
hear it?
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Do we take stifle ourselves side it like when someone says,
what is it called? When you suggest something and nobody responds,
then their man suggests it.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
A butterfly effect, Yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Everyone's like, what a great idea.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Yeah, it's the woman put it on the table and
then the man let it give it the way to fly. Yeah.
So it's it's it's challenging, without question, but you know,
as the mom of two daughters, I'm always mindful of that.
I've got to show up and be tough and think
about how I model what is doable, but also how
(34:47):
we hold people accountable and how when women lead we
get shited done.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
And also I think isn't the best revenge doing the
job well right and being right about the law when
you're being explained by two non lawyers what it is.
I mean, it's sort of that is, I think one
of the best ways, like being successful at what you do.
(35:13):
But I think female power is still very threatening to men,
and I think in a way it's not their fault
because they've been culturally conditioned to I think, especially older
men honestly and some younger men, to see gender roles
as so specific and it's so reinforced in so many
ways in our society, whether it's billboards or images. And
(35:38):
you know, I talked to interesting education professor at Harvard
because I had done an hour on gender inequality in
Hollywood and Silicon Valley, and she talked about, you know,
our brains are wired to make these connections, and when
you're surrounded by certain things like your mom is always
doing the laundry or washing the dishes or cooking, you know,
you do make this connection, wiring gets kind of built
(36:01):
into your brain that there are certain roles for women
in certain roles for men. And that's why it's so
important that we have to break these roles, because that
will result in breaking these stereotypes right.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Right, and we have to be intentional about it, and
we're always have to do that. Math is this, the moment?
Is this? How do I respond to this? And how
do we break those molds?
Speaker 1 (36:25):
I have to ask you, as the mother of two daughters,
I also am the mom of two daughters. You have
Sharry twenty two in Sydney twenty how concerned are you?
I mean, I am deeply concerned about what is happening
to reproductive rights in this country. I don't have to
necessarily read the statistics, but maybe it would be helpful
to our listeners. Fourteen states have abortion bands and almost
(36:49):
all circumstances fourteen states. Three states have enacted bans or restrictions,
but abortion remains legal for now as courts determine whether
these laws can take effect. That's Montana, Wyoming, and Iowa.
Seven states have gestational limits raging from six to twenty
two weeks, and twenty five states and DC still have
(37:12):
legal abortion. You know, people used to kind of make
jokes about the Handmaid's Tale, but it does seem eerily
prescient now in terms of what has happened as Roe
was overturned and it was handed back to the States.
So what do you, I mean, honestly, how do you
(37:35):
process all this?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Well? I mean, it's shocking to be in a situation
where a right that I've had my whole life's not
very much in jeopardy for my daughters. To think what
the ability to have reproductive freedom and access to complete
healthcare has meant for generations of women in America, what
it's meant for our economy, what it's meant for our
(37:57):
ability to raise a family and do the things that
we need to do to take care of ourselves and
our families. And to think that our girls may not
always be able to say that they've had these rights.
You know, in Michigan, we would have reverted back to
a nineteen thirty one law with the Dobbs decision, But
I filed a lawsuit because I was getting ready when
(38:18):
Ruth Bader Ginsburg died. I said, we had to scour
everything and see what we can do here, and so
we had an injunction from the day that the Dobbs
decision came down. I took a lot of crap for
filing that lawsuit because people said, oh, it's an overreaction,
they're not going to do that, or you know, you
don't have standing, it's not ripe all the stuff.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Don't worry so much, don't be such an alarmist.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
They'll never do that. But we ignored that. We went
ahead and did it, and so we never lost the
right in Michigan for a minute. It gave the activists
and advocates that opportunity to collect signatures. We had it
on the ballot, and we want overwhelmingly in Michigan. Just
like other states where the people have been given an
opportun way in they say, hell, yes, we expect to
(39:02):
have these rights, whether it's in Ohio or Kentucky, I
mean red states. But it's still very precarious. If you
look at the language in the Supreme Court opinions, whether
it was the Miffey opinion or this new Idaho opinion
where they can give emergency medical care, which was a
positive right that just came out. But if they say, well,
(39:25):
we're not going to do anything more on this. It's
a punt, which means it's still very much in play.
And even in a state like Michigan or New York
or California, where we think that this is settled, it's not.
It's not.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
So the Supreme Court doesn't really change in terms of
who's on it anytime soon. Right? Can there be a
federal law? And how likely would a federal law legalizing
abortion nationwide happen?
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Well, we have to have a democratic majority of both
the House and the US Senate and president who would
sign the bill, which the only one running for president
right now is President Biden, who would actually sign a
bill that restores our reproductive freedom across this country?
Speaker 1 (40:10):
But how likely would it be that that would pass
given the complement of the House and Senate, even on
a good day, even if the Democrats control both houses? Right? Is,
don't you need two thirds and you need a supermajority?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
And that's not in the foreseeable future, sadly, But I
would say that what is in the foreseeable future is
this next presidential election and the opportunity to appoint more
justices and as these cases come back, whether it's someone
who now does have standing or it's one of the
other procedural reasons that they didn't actually decide the merits
(40:46):
of reproductive rights. Who's on that court really matters more
than ever, and the next president the next four years
may have a couple of appointments.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
After this break.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Rereteus thoughts on recent ethical breaches at the Supreme Court.
In a word, she says, it's scary. She'll tell us
why right after this. You know, I'm curious as a lawyer, Gretchen,
(41:25):
how you feel about the Supreme Court these days. You know,
they've gone down in terms of the level of respect
people feel or the trust they have in the High Court.
Really weird stuff going on with Clarence Thomas ethically and
Samuel Alito flying the upside down flag that was really
(41:47):
the symbol for insurrectionists, even though his wife flew it.
It was their mutual domicile after all, I mean, what
the hell is going on with them?
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Yeah? Can we just talk about like Bob Menendez and
Justice a little boy, I mean their wives for yeah. Anyway, Yeah,
you know, I have I feel really really you know,
unsettled by everything that's happening with the Supreme Court, because
as a as a public servant, as someone who's taken
(42:19):
oaths to the Michigan Constitution, the US Constitution, as a
lawyer who as an officer of the Court, I take
all of these ethics and responsibilities very seriously. I know
that confidence in our democratic institutions is plummeting, and now
that it applies to the Court as well, and it's
scary because those are the underpinnings of this democracy. And
(42:42):
if I'm not confident in the Court that I've been
raised and educated to revere, I don't know how how
anyone can be. And I think that's very worrisome. I'd
love to see the Court actually have some ethics laws
that they have to follow and they get held accountable
to because I think this is just really corrosive for
our democracy.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
And I guess they made an attempt to, but they
really didn't have any teeth. Jodi Kanter did a lot
of reporting on this for The New York Times, and
I interviewed her and she said that these ethics laws
basically didn't have any meat to them. And it seems
to me like it's high time for these justices to
be held to account for some of their behavior. And
(43:28):
I mean, they're so biased obviously, And I don't know,
how do you find a Supreme Court justice in this
day and age that isn't biased one way or another, right?
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Well, And I think you know the fact that they
went into Congress and said that Roe was the settled
law of the land. They flat out wide to Congress.
I mean, it's really stunning when you step back and
think about all the different ways that the standards and
the ethics and confidence in these institutions has been eroded.
(43:59):
When you've got three appointees who say one thing and
do the other and betrayed the people, it's really destructive.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
But it doesn't seem like it's going to change anytime
soon because how old is the oldest justice? I have
to look this up, But doesn't seem like anyone or
any of them are particularly near retirement, does it?
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Well? In Washington, do you see the average age of
services quite old? So?
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Right, So, I don't maybe the legislative thing, which seems
unlikely too. So we're kind of in a bit of
a bind when it comes to abortion rights.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Right and yet where we are isn't locked, and it
could definitely slide backwards. And I think that's the big
concern that I have talking to Michigan Anders who work
so hard to get us on the right side of
this issue now to know it could all be for
naught with you know, a future Supreme Court ruling.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah. I know that you are part of President by
Re election campaign, but I wanted to ask you about
something he said during the twenty twenty election. In twenty twenty,
Joe Biden appeared at a campaign stop and he was
with you, Kamala Harris, and Corey Booker, and he said
(45:17):
he viewed himself as a bridge, not as anything else.
I interviewed Vice President Harris not too long ago, and
I said, Hey, did you think that bridge was going
to take four years to build or eight years to build?
Because I think a lot of people really did think
that Joe Biden, given his age, was going to be
(45:38):
a one term president.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
WTF.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Gretchen Whitmer, you know, I remember we were on that stage.
It was actually the last rally of the whole campaign
because COVID, the first two cases in COVID came the
night of the election in Michigan, and that's why he
was there. We were having our primary and I remember
it vividly because we were all, you know, hugging one
(46:02):
another but not shaking hands. And it just like makes
me cringe thinking about it because we didn't know its
respiratorially spread to talking to one another but shaking hands.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
But anyway, I'm glad you didn't get him sick.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Oh God, But you know, I do think that that
was that was what he communicated. He has gotten so
much done in four years. He's got he wants to
continue the work for the next four The field is set.
I know people keep saying, well what about this one?
About that? The field is set, and we've got a
(46:36):
very stark choice in front of us in this country.
And the good news is future in future elections. There's
a very deep bench of incredibly talented democratic leaders in
this country right now. I think about all of my colleagues,
you know, everyone from from Joshapiro to Wesmore to Michelle
(46:58):
Leuhan Grisham to you know, Gavin Newsome, JB. Pritzker.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
I mean, there's Mitch Landrew kind of seemed Mitch Landry
semi interested when I asked it the other day. Gina,
I hear her name often.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
It's I mean, it really is a deep bench of
incredibly talented people, deeper than we've had in a long time.
So I think it's exciting to think about what does
the next the next one look like. But right now
we got a stark choice. So that's WTF, Katie.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
One person you left out of that list was Gretchen Whitmer.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Well, I'm honored to be included with that group.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
I do think that whenever I think of future leaders,
inevitably your name comes up, which is a really nice compliment,
and you know, an incredible show of support. And you know,
obviously you're not gonna tell me, yes, Katie, I'm running
in twenty twenty eight and i'd like to announce it
on your podcast, But you know, does it appeal to
(47:56):
you this idea of potentially one day running for president?
And I mean, that's a huge, huge thing, And you know,
given some of the threats on your life already and
your family and just the grueling nature of running for
president for any person, man or woman, how do you
(48:18):
think about it right now? I know it's in the future,
and I'm not this is not a gotcha question. I'm
not trying to pin you down, but I'm just curious,
as as a person who believes deeply in public service.
How you think about it, Well.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
The truth is I'm not thinking about it right now.
I'm really not, and i don't know what happens. I've
got two and a half more years of being governor.
We've got to get through this crucial election. Got a
lot of work that I want to get done. You know,
the possibility of that is something that is an overwhelming
thought that would have to be, you know, given the
(48:52):
proper attention and consideration. And I'm not in any position
to do that right now. So when people say what
are you going to do after yours on being governor?
I like to say, I'm want to walk the earth
for a year and figure out what it is I
want to do next. I say that kind of joking,
but I do care about where we are. I do
want to be a part of a solution making room,
(49:13):
at the table for voices that haven't always been there.
And if I've got something to contribute, whether it's you know,
as a candidate or as a supporter of a great candidate,
I'm going to stay engaged one way or another.
Speaker 1 (49:25):
I also think, like, if your head's not in the
game for what you're doing right now, You've got a
huge role, a lot of responsibility. If you're thinking too
much about the future, you're going to screw up the present, right.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Yeah, absolutely, you can't take your eye off the ball.
I mean, these are heavy duty jobs and people are
relying on us. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
And one thing people are relying on you, Governor, is
to help Joe Biden win the state of Michigan. And
right now President Biden and former President Trump are running
neck and neck there. How are you going to do that?
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Well, I've told everyone, don't clutch your pearls when we're
down two points, don't celebrate when we're up due points.
Just make peace with the fact that this is going
to be close all the way through the election. I
always remind people months out before my reelect, everyone was
right in my political obituary, Katie, and they said they
don't no way was that woman from Michigan who locked
people down and Democrat in the White House. No way,
(50:24):
because you get re elected in a state like Michigan,
and I ended up winning by almost eleven points because
we showed up and we got into every community. And
that's the kind of work that we're continuing to do
and on behalf of President Biden. You know people are
They're good, hard working people. They're busy, They're not consuming
(50:45):
information the way that you and I are. They've got
to get the kids off to school, get to the job,
get the bills paid. I mean, people are trying to
get by. It's a hard time for a lot of.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
Folks in the cost of living. Do you think President
Biden is really focused in off on the price of
groceries and gas, because that seems to be to me
an animating factor in how people are feeling right now
about these two candidates.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
I think you can't tell someone how to feel. You
can't change the stress that someone's feeling in their household
budget by saying, well, look at we've got historically low
unemployment and take home wages and our economies better than
other countries. That doesn't make them feel better. We've got
to ask what is it that you need? What can
we do? And did you know that the president has
(51:33):
helped you keep more money in your pocket because of
all these investments that he's making, whether it's in infrastructure,
or it's in clean energy, or it's in debt relief.
And so I think drawing those connections are going to
be really crucial for us as we're going into the
next few months. But it's going to be tense and
we've got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
Michigan has the largest population of air of American and
Muslim voters, many of them strongly opposed President Biden's handling
of Israel Hamas war. I know you've been talking, and
I know you've made great efforts to reach out to
the Arab American community in your state, But how concerned
(52:11):
are you not only Gretchen about how they'll be voting
in Michigan, but also about young people. You know, it's
interesting a lot of polls show the economy is still
top of mind for young people. But you know, if
you look at the protests on college campuses and this
wedge that this war has put into place, not only
(52:35):
within the Democratic Party but almost generationally, how worried are
you about all those things coming together and hurting the president.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
Well, I'm concerned. I definitely see the path through Michigan,
and we're working hard to ensure that we earn the
support of all of these communities. I know that a
Trump Part two would make things measurably worse, and I
think a lot of people know that, whether it was
(53:07):
around the Muslim ban or how he talks about, you know,
the war that's playing out in Gaza with Israel, that
we know that he represents something that would make actually
the situation worse. All that being said, we've got to
recognize that there are a lot of people that are
hurt in right now. In Michigan. We've got a huge
contention of Arab American voters, many of whom are also
(53:31):
Muslim voters, some of whom are also Palestinians. They're not
all one monolithic group, but most are one or two
degrees of separation from someone who's died in the fighting,
someone who's trying to feed their family still over in Gaza.
There's a lot of guilt being here and sadness that
(53:51):
American dollars are going into, you know, the pain that
their loved ones are feeling over there. Also say, we've
got a robust Jewish community her gosh.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
While straddling those two groups and thinking dialectically, which is
increasingly hard to find, yes and thinking must be really difficult.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
It is. And these are communities that have lived in
harmony for decades in Michigan, who've always been both have
always been a part of the coalition that I've been
fortunate to have the support of, and so I do
think that there's more work to do with a lot
of these voters. I think we will earn back the
(54:33):
support of most of them, but I think that we're
going to need to earn support of a lot of
new voters too, And young people, like you said, are
they see the humanitarian crisis playing out and they're very
upset about it. My own kids, I've had conversations, you know,
hard conversations with to know that they are feeling very
empathetic and sad and demoralized and angry about, you know,
(54:55):
the violence that they're seeing playing out every day. So
I think that my job in Michigan is to make
sure both these communities feel seen, heard and supported and
safe here at home, but also to try to find
to bridge that divide. And it takes a lot of work,
but it starts with hard conversations and continues with.
Speaker 1 (55:15):
Them and a lot of listening. I imagine too, right.
Speaker 2 (55:18):
Listening as a superpower, Katie. I've learned so much from
people if you ask them what they need, what they want,
or what's going on in their lives. They will tell you,
and politicians who make the mistake of not doing that,
I think are missing, missing the plot, missing what's really
happening with people and the ability to help them.
Speaker 1 (55:36):
Gretchen Whitmer, The book is true, Gretch. What I've learned
about life, leadership and everything in between has been such
a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (55:46):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy
world reach out. You can leave a short message at
six oh nine five point two five five five, or
you can send me a DM on Instagram. I would
love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
(56:17):
of iHeartMedia and Katiekuric Media. The executive producers are Me,
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martx,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
(56:37):
or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app or visit
us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Two
Host
Katie Couric
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