April 8, 2021 • 48 mins
Luvvie Ajayi Jones is a writer, speaker and author of two New York Times best-selling books, “I’m Judging You: The Do-Better Manual” and her latest, “Professional Troublemaker: The Fear-Fighting Manual.” Luvvie’s books are part memoir, part manifestos that, like Luvvie herself, try to help the rest of us do better — for ourselves and for the people around us. On this episode of Next Question with Katie Couric, Katie gives herself over to Luvvie’s wisdom and learns how to overcome confidence barriers, use fear for good, shed that pleaser instinct, embrace the brag, and loan courage whenever possible. Get your pad and pen, because your Luvvie lesson starts now!
Learn more about the episode:
Buy the “I’m Judging You: The Do-Better Manual”
Buy “Professional Troublemaker: The Fear-Fighter Manual”
Watch Luvvie’s 2017 Ted Talk, “Get comfortable with being uncomfortable”
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi everyone, It's Katie Kuric and welcome to Next Question.
Love E A. G. I. E. Jones is a writer,
a speaker, and the author of two best selling books,
I'm Judging You That Do Better Manual and her latest
professional troublemaker, The Fear Fighting Manual. I call my book
manifestos like life manifestos, kind of essay collections that are
(00:26):
based in lessons that I know that if we take
them on, we will be better for it. Love These books,
like Lovey herself, are trying to help the rest of
us do better for ourselves and in turn, the people
around us. And let me tell you, this is one
of the most inspiring conversations I've had. Lovey imparts her
(00:46):
wisdom and drops some seriously sage thought gems. We're always
looking for Superman to save the day, and I'm like,
we all have red capes. New levels come with new devils.
We've got to use our power for each other, not
against it, and shred the machine. That's just a taste.
There is a lot more where that came from. I
hope you have a pen and paper with you, because
(01:07):
your Lovey lesson starts now. Lovey, I think a lot
of listeners probably have heard of you and know who
you are. But there are some people listening to this
podcast it might be thinking, who's lovey? So why don't
you give us your bio? And two minutes are less
love e I'm love you Jai Jones and I am
(01:30):
a New York Times Best On author, a speaker, a
digital strategists, a lover of shoes uh, a Nigerian girl,
and a Chicagoan. I am a graduate of the Universe
of Illinois. Shout out to the fighting at line. I
my degrees in psychology, which I thought I was going
to actually practice, but I still love the idea of
(01:53):
like how the human mind works, So maybe one day
I can still do something related to it. And then
what I'll My favorite color is red. I eat rice
almost every day, and um, I'm obsessed with hats and blazers.
Tell us how you got from uh psychology nature? And
(02:15):
in a way, I think your work does explore the
human mind, because I think you're very emotionally intelligent, and
you connect with people and you see trends and all
those things. I think take a certain knowledge of psychology.
But how did you get to where you are today?
A writer, A speaker, a thought leader really in many ways. Yeah,
(02:36):
So eighteen years ago I started my first blog. It
was my freshman year in college. My friend's peer pressure
into doing it. They were like, we're getting weblogs, That's
what it was called back then. So I got one,
and I chronicled my college career and you know whatever,
undergrad shenanigans. I was going through exams. I was getting
decent because I actually thought I was gonna be a doctor.
(02:58):
So starting in college my major psychology premed. I ended
up getting a d my first semester in chemistry, first
and last year of my academic career, and I dropped
that premed very quickly. I was like, nope, nope, I'm
not supposed to be a doctor. I don't even like hospitals.
So graduated from college, deleted the college blog, and started
(03:19):
awesomely lovey dot com, the blog that I still have today.
Um and instead of talking about my life, I was
talking about the world as I saw it, TV, regular randomness, race, politics,
anything I really felt like. And I was working full
time as a marketing coordinator for a nonprofit. So I'd
go to work nine to five and I come home
(03:40):
and blog, which is this really nice hobby that I
had um well, that hobby won its first award in
two thousand and nine, and I got laid off my
marketing job in two thousand ten April. Tents almost been
eleven years, and I basically never had a chance to
get another job because it was basically like the universe,
and Gud pointed me towards You're supposed to be using
(04:02):
your words to make people feel joy, make them think critically,
and compel them to take actions that leaves this world
better than they found it. So I was doing marketing
and branding consulting for small businesses as I looked for
other jobs. I still looked for other jobs because I
was like, no, no, you need to go find yourself
a full time job. You need a four O one
(04:22):
K and your shoe habit needs some supporting. So I
was still looking for jobs and sending resumes. I actually
found out I was still sending out resumes up until
like November. But I was, you know, doing what I
love really writing and and social strategy and digital strategy.
But I basically never had a chance to get another
(04:43):
job because clearly I was supposed to be working for
myself doing this under my own entity. UM. I came
up with my first book, Idea, and it was after
I was plagiarized by a journal lists who took three
paragraphs of my work dropped it in his without any
(05:03):
credit to me, and he emailed me after I went in.
He emailed me. It was like I didn't know. I
wasn't supposed to do that. And I remember saying, is
there not a limited edition handbook on how not to
be terrible at being humans? And that is what led
me to writing and I'm judging you to do better
manual UM, which end up coming out in It hit
(05:24):
the New York Times list instantly. That changed my life
in my career, and then Shonda Rhymes optioned it. Yes, Yes,
Shanda optioned it when she was at ABC Studios. And
it just was this thing that really got me to
be in rooms that I didn't even know existed. A
(05:44):
year later, I did a TED talk called Getting Comfortable
with Being Uncomfortable. I realized comfort is overrated because being quiet,
it's comfortable, keeping things the way they've been. It's comfortable,
and all comfort has done is maintained the status quote.
So we've got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable by
speaking these hard truths when they're necessary. And I the
(06:08):
talk point viral had a million views in the month,
and that talk now has I think five point six
million views. Another career changer, and that talk is what
led me to write my new book, my latest book,
Professional Troublemaker, The Fear Fighter Manual, which just debuted at
three on the New York Times list. So that was
(06:28):
that was exciting, And so yeah, my path is a
series of moments that I didn't necessarily plan that led
to something greater, being open to the universe and where
it takes you, which is obviously what you did, Lovey.
And I want to talk about the new book book,
but I do want to mention the other book, the
(06:49):
previous book. I'm I'm judging you that you better manual.
When people say what are these books, what do you say, Lovey?
They are part memoir because I usually tell stories of myself,
because I put myself in the middle of my writing
to make sure that I am not making myself self exceptional,
that I am a guide instead of an expert in
(07:10):
this whole thing. And my books don't take themselves so
seriously because I don't take myself so seriously. So I'll
talk through what I've learned. I'll make you laugh while
you're reading it, um and hopefully make an idea that
you've heard before stick better, Like what giv me an
example of that? Lovely? So think about imposter syndrome, which
(07:32):
we've heard a thousand times, right, I think impostor syndrome
is you're putting on them. You're feeling like you're wearing
a mask that you've not earned, or you're wearing a
coat that does not belong to you. And I think
about the moments when we're all in rooms that feel like,
oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm here, and imposter
syndrome comes roaring back, and I'm like, you know, spend
(07:52):
less time being worried about how you've made it in
the room, spend more time saying, well, I am here,
so I'm to make sure I bring value to the room.
Imposter syndrome can be a driver, not a stunter. Right,
if we let it stunt us will let us say.
It will make us say no to yes opportunities. You know,
if we let it drive us, it will make us
say yes. I might not feel like I'm ready, but
(08:15):
I'll be ready, so I'm gonna be better at my craft.
I'll make sure I'm working hard. I will make sure
I'm being authentically myself, and that way I won't feel
like I'm wearing a mask in that room. Sometimes, though,
I think you have imposter syndrome when you feel like
everyone is at a certain level and you're not right.
So how do you I think there's a real confidence
(08:37):
barrier to figuring out, well, what can I get to
this room and not worrying about why you're there? How
do you break through really convincing yourself that what you
say is worth hearing? Mm hmm, So I really I
have to put in the perspective of we are often
(08:58):
thinking everybody else's extraordinary, but us right, We're thinking the
person who's in the room, who looks like they're really
comfortable in the room, never had a fear, but they
did too. They might even have a fear right then
and there, So normalizing the idea that we're actually all
walking around with all these silent fears, and then also
affirming yourself in knowing that your story, in your words,
(09:21):
are no less valid than anybody else in the room,
that in itself as a practice. You know, why is
somebody else's story more valid than yours? Why why should
they be more important than yours? There are no no
real extraordinary people to me. I think we see extraordinary
people and they're really ordinary people who decided to do
(09:42):
something over and over again. It's stuck, right, So people
aren't born extraordinary where I mean, there are some people
with extraordinary gifts, But I don't think you're just born
extraordinary and then one day everybody knows your name. There
are a lot of extraordinarily gifted people whose names we
don't know because they didn't practice it out loud, you know,
who didn't show their art. So I'm always thinking the
(10:03):
people who are in those rooms that you might want
to be in, think about the fact that they just
happened to do something over and over again enough to
where somebody said, all right, I see you, I'm gonna
ask you in here. So what is the thing that
you just have to commit to doing over and over
again if you want to be in the rooms that
you are seeing everybody else in More with the Professional
(10:27):
Troublemaker in Just a Moment. Your book is called Professional Troublemaker,
The Fear Fighter Manual and I wanted you to define
what a troublemaker is, but first what a troublemaker isn't. Yeah,
(10:51):
a troublemaker is not a contrarian or the devil's advocate
who's always like, well, let's look at it differently. They're
not a troll who is throwing chaos bombs in a room.
Professional troublemakers are people who are committed, dedicated to elevating
the rooms that they're in and disrupting for the greater good.
(11:12):
You know. They're the person who sits in the meeting
and says, hey, the campaign idea, I would love for
us to be a little bit more thoughtful about it.
You know. They're the ones who are sitting at the
dinner table where if your uncle makes a joke that's
not appropriate, they'll be like, hey, uncle, not good, you know.
And they're the friends. They're a friend that we all
have who always wanted to have a tough conversation even
(11:33):
though it might make other people uncomfortable. They're like, let's
let's talk about this thing because it's important. I think
troublemakers are necessary in the world, and they're they're being
silenced more than they're being celebrated. And that is a mistake.
I love what you write. A professional troublemakers, someone who
critiques the world, the shoddy systems and the people who
(11:56):
refuse to do better. As a writer, a speaker, and
a shaking night Jerry, and I am the person giving
the side eye to folks for doing trash things. I'm
the person who is unable to be quiet when I
feel cheated. I'm the person who says what you were
thinking and feeling but dare not say because you have
a job to protect or you're afraid of how it
will land. Yeah, that's pretty fearless. You don't You're not
(12:20):
afraid to express yourself. It seems to me that we're
living in very treacherous times, you know, in terms of
expressing yourself and being misconstrued or taken wrongly. I think,
especially as these culture shifts are unfolding happily before our eyes,
(12:41):
how do you kind of balance this need to speak out?
You know, speak truth to power, but also be received
in a way that will help facilitate understanding and uh
changes in attitude and real oppress If that makes sense. Yeah,
(13:02):
I think, you know, with speaking out and that one
thing that people must understand about troublemakers is that we
don't just speak up because we're not afraid. We do
it in spite of the fact that we are afraid.
You know, we are bold, and we come across as that.
But it's not because we don't think there aren't going
to be consequences. Sometimes it doesn't mean we don't we're
not afraid of the fact that, yes, one person might
(13:24):
misconstrue what we say, our intention and blow it up, right,
it's just that we say, I understand that's a risk,
and I will take it. And it is one of
those things. And it's not even about being fearless, because
I think fearlessness is not even not just about you're
not afraid. I think fearlessness is that you're not letting
fear make you do less. So you go, Okay, I'm
(13:44):
about to say this thing that might be controversial, but
I really believe it and I think it's the truth,
and I'm gonna say it, and you go, I know
it might not land well, some people might not like it,
but I think it's important that we have this dialogue
and you say it knowing that you are also not
in control of how anybody will receive it. One of
the things that we must understand in this world is
(14:06):
that the only people that we have any type of
real control overs ourselves and everybody else is a crack shoot.
How everybody you know takes whatever you say is really
up in the air. You might say one thing and
it lands well, and then the next thing people go,
why would you say that? And that's why you have
to control yourself in terms of how thoughtful your being.
(14:28):
It's why I have a three question framework that I
use to ask myself whenever i'm I want to say
something that feels tough or that people might disagree with.
It's do I mean it? Can I defend it? Can
I say thoughtfully? If the answer is just all those
three questions, I say it knowing that it might still
land in a way that somebody doesn't like. But I've
(14:50):
done my risk mitigation and I've done my obligation because
I think if I am constantly moving based on how
how I think people receive it, my moves won't be
authentic to me anymore. I'll be controlled by what I
think is going to be the impact all the time.
At which point I would take no risks, I would
(15:12):
say nothing real. I will stay in a safe bubble
and only say the things that I know will go well,
which for a thought leader, I can't do that because
what how do how do I grow as a thought
leader if I'm constantly only saying what's safe? Um, how
do I? How do you an example? Give me an
example of you if when you put something out there
(15:34):
it met all three criteria for going ahead and speaking
out and atlantic or didn't. I mean. Chapter seven of
my book is called failed Loudly, and it is chronicles
(15:54):
the time when I made my biggest public fail where
I trend it on Twitter because of it a come
that I thought was innoxious that ends up being oh
my god, I can't believe she said it. And that
moment for me was a lesson because I was like,
it was less about what I said, it was about
it was more about how people wanted to react in
(16:15):
that moment. It was also more about a lesson I
need to learn about the fact that because I am
a thought leader, because I am I have a bigger platform,
my my words are engaged with differently, and the platform
being bigger means more people are listening. There are more
chances to be misunderstood. It doesn't mean I shut up.
(16:38):
It doesn't mean I say less. It actually means that one,
I continue to give myself the chance to fail too,
because each fail is a growth opportunity, because I am
a better thinker because of that situation. And then three,
we cannot control other people and the fear that a
lot of us have, which is being humiliar at it
(17:00):
publicly or you know, ended up trending for something that
is not positive. I went through it. It did not
kill me, right. It's one of those painful lessons that
we're always afraid of that moment though, And what's funny
is in the moment when that moment happened, I actually
(17:22):
wasn't afraid of it. It was something that felt innocua,
something that wasn't even thinking was a problem. So I
think it reinforced for me that my mission and my
purpose my words are bigger than any one moment, and
I must continue to use it in a real way,
and I need to be more thoughtful. All of that,
(17:44):
it was like a big storm of I need to
show you that new levels come with new devils. But
also when the worst case scenario happens, you can still recover,
You can still your space up you can still move
forward and do your work. It will not destroy you. All.
(18:05):
Every mistake, even big ones, are not destruction mistakes, right,
because we're always afraid of the destruction. So I was like,
all right, if I made it through there, I can
do something big. But you do just say new levels,
with new levels, new devils. Yeah, that's good to remember
(18:26):
because I think people that's one of the things that
people live in fear of, right, that they'll get a
clap back, or they'll get you know, told no, or
they'll get something and it will not destroy you basically correct. Correct.
I think we're often afraid of the worst case scenario,
(18:47):
but then we'll use it to it will opt out
of the best case scenario in the process, so we
won't say that thing that feels tough because we're afraid
of the major clap back. But the best case scenario
to be ships in the world could be ships and
how somebody's thinking could be impactful to somebody somewhere who
feels alone in this It could help normalize somebody's pain.
(19:09):
And how often are we opted out of that piece
that impact that we can have because we're afraid of
our egos being hurt. You dedicate this book to your grandmother.
Tell me about her and why you got such courage
from the person she She was. Yeah, my grandmother Fumilia
following we called her Mama following. She was a fireball.
(19:34):
She was passion, love, kindness all rolled in one package.
And my grandmother took up space without apology in a
big way. She allowed herself to be celebrated, and she
never apologized for herself. You know, she walked with so
much pride about just her persona that in her presence
(19:56):
it was hard to feel bad about yourself because you
would just be like, look at her. And she gave
me the gift of that because I didn't realize that
what she was doing was giving me permission to be
who I am in a real way. She never had
to be like be yourself. She just was herself and
I was watching her, and I'm like, okay, And I
learned a lot from just seeing how she navigated through
(20:18):
the world, which is often not kind to black women.
My grandmother was like, this is who I am. You're
gonna deal and you're probably gonna love me. Like you know,
she was very kind in that anything that she had,
if somebody else was missing it, She'll give it to them.
She would. I've seen my grandmother I should have visitors
and somebody said, oh my god, I like your shirt,
(20:39):
and she would literally go change and say here to
the person who just complimented her shirt. The ring that
I wear on this hand that I basically haven't taken
off like twenty years, was hers. One day I was like, oh, Grandma,
that's really nice. She literally slips this ring, this gold ring,
off her finger and handed it to me and I've
(21:00):
been wearing it ever since. She was that woman who
was just benevolent, beyond understanding, but she didn't do it
by sacrificing herself, and that was really key. I think
women are often told, or the messaging that we get
is that we need to be of service, even if
it is of detriment to ourselves. She was of service,
but she was never gonna sacrifice herself for it. I
(21:23):
didn't see it, so I was learning all of that
and I think I carry that with me and I'm
thankful that she gave me that permission. How old were
you when you came to this country. I was nine,
and I'm curious how much the immigrant experience for you.
Lovey impacted sort of how you move in the world
(21:45):
and how you see the world and how you want
the world to see you. Mm hmm. I think it's
a big part of how I see myself and just
everything about me, my the way I write, the way
I approach humored, the way my swag is very Nigerian,
and um my face is very Nigerian. Um. Yeah, I
think I see the world in a way that's different
(22:05):
because knowing what it's like to come from a place
where everybody looks like you and now everybody who looks
like you is considered less than it does shock your system.
But I think I also had the bubble that protected
me at home. You know, I kept that with me
and I and I am service oriented and that my
(22:30):
my family especially, that's been a big part of us.
Like it's almost cultural for us to to give, Like
if you were to come to my house and I
only had a one bedroom, for example, Culturally, I'm supposed
to let you have my bed and I sleep on
the couch, And that is deeply embedded in how I
operate to um and if I have too much of excess,
(22:52):
I must have somebody else must get some of it.
But I think, Yeah, just how I even approach everything
food from the food I eat, the music I listened
to a lot. Afrobeats is very much embedded in my culture.
The fact that I can tell the stories of mine
grandmother and introduced people to new concepts that they might
not have heard. That's in your by land. It's all
(23:14):
my culture. And I think, I I'm I'm proudly Nigerian American,
and I'm hoping that somebody else somewhere just to see
me and say, you know what, I'm going to use
her as the example to my parents as what's possible
for me. A lot of I think women and women
of color have dealt with not having enough role models
(23:38):
in their lives, not seen enough women before them. Too
many of them are are first when they should be second, third, fourth,
and fifth. And I'm curious how that, how that affected
you and where you saw it those role models other
than your family. Yeah. So for a long time I
(24:00):
did not call myself a writer because I thought writers
were journalists or novelists. I didn't see an example of
a writer who was an essayist who wrote like I did.
So it actually did cause me a bit of a
mental roadblock for a while because I was like, yeah,
I can't be a writer like Tony Morrison's writer, but
(24:20):
Tony writes novels, so I can't. That's not me. And
I think about how just not having the example stopped
me so much from that that it brings me joy
that I can be somebody's example. Now, you know, in
terms of writers, there's so many of us now too
that exists who are essays, who aren't just writing the novels,
and so the kids who are Generation Z, they have
(24:43):
a lot of options to look to like that's possible,
that's version, it's possible to and that's the gift that
we didn't have. So part of the work that I
do and how I show up in the world is
with the hopes that somebody else has seen me and
being able to be like, Okay, because Letty did that
and can do that, that means I can't also, and
(25:05):
it's possible. It's that concrete example that we often need
to know what is like possible for us. So whatever
the example that I didn't have, I became that example
for myself and then now I'm hoping I'm the example
for other people. I think, what's so exciting about the
culture today, and there are a lot of bills about
social media, but the way you can reach people, you
(25:28):
no longer have few outlets with with gatekeepers who all
basically look like the same person, you have the same background,
determine what's worthy or what's not. You can put things
out in the world and and let people respond. And
(25:48):
that has changed everything, don't you think. Yeah, Social has
democratized everything. I've been early adopter of all the platforms,
so I've been on Facebook since July's thousand four. I've
been on Twitter since September two thou eight, and Instagram
since twelve. And I've just watched all the platforms unlocked
(26:10):
doors in ways that's mind boggling. People create an account
and in three months, if they have the right content,
have a million followers, and we'll have all this option
of who to work with. And I think it's beautiful
because the lack of that, we have to strive for
(26:32):
every bit of it, and social now opening that door.
That means we're we are every day we're getting access
to brilliant minds who who previously would not have had
the chance because of all the locked doors that were
controlled by a handful of people. Now some of these
doors are wide open because you just sign up for
an account. Free account opens up a door. I hope
(26:55):
more people are doing it. How women can dump those
are gender roles? Amen to that more advice from Lovy
in just a moment. There's still a lot of cultural
conditioning and implicit bias to use sort of monitored day
(27:18):
buzzwords that keep women in general from doing the things
that men have always done that they have not felt
comfortable doing, bringing attention to themselves, being considered a bit
being outspoken, um, you know, not necessarily adhering to gender
norms that have really been established obviously for centuries. But
(27:44):
still I think the remnants of those pressures still exists.
And and what do you tell women too in terms
of being able to to kind of straddle that or
perhaps even better, put these expectations aside and kind of
(28:06):
push forward, because we've been wired to feel uncomfortable when
we pushed through gender roles and expectations. And and it's
still they're still very prevalent in the culture. Yeah, I
think we should dump them. I think we should dump them.
And I'm hoping this book helps people dump some of
it because one of the things that women are especially
(28:27):
concerned about is how do I make sure I don't
brag about myself if I'm talking about something I did.
If you're stating the fact of something you did is bragging,
then brag on. If I can say to you, my
second book is a New York Times by seller, and
I say it in any tone actually, and it's considered bragging.
(28:51):
But I'm like, that was actually just a fact, right.
I think women need to get rid of the ideas
that we should be these humble creatures who do not
own what we're amazing at. I don't think us diminishing
our dopeness. Does anybody any favors? So yeah, man get
to say like, oh yeah, I did this, I raised
this much a mount for my company, and everybody takes
(29:13):
this fact and says, got it. Respect. We say something
that we did and were instantly told she's bragging. Well,
you know what, let me be bragging them. You know,
I don't think we were brought here to be humble
in the way we're thinking. Humility is valid. But humility
does not mean you diminish or you self deprecate. It
means you know what you're amazing at, but you also
(29:34):
give credit to all the systems around you, all the
people who have allowed you to to get there, the
training you've gotten, your parents were giving you the opportunities.
My humility is based in the fact that I know
that my God giving gifts I've honed over years um
and I've been given access to the life terms to
do this because my mom made the sacrifice to move
(29:56):
us to the United States. My grandmother lived this hard
life before and is fully joyful by the time I
met her. You know, and all the people who came
before me, all the writers of color who came before me,
all the black women scribes who came before me, I
give them credit. But it does not mean I then
sit here and diminish my gifts just to make somebody
(30:17):
else feel better. So I think, women, the sooner that
we get rid of everybody's expectations of us, the better
we will be for it. Let us make money without guilt,
Let us be amazing at our work and being confident
without guilt. Let us, you know, ask for what we
want without any guilt attached. And when we start doing that,
(30:38):
we will start soaring even more because we don't need
to shackle ourselves to the ground to make everybody else
feel better? What about the desire on the part of
so many women? And I think I speak for myself.
I'm a pleaser and it's important for me to be liked,
which doesn't necessarily or hasn't necessarily gone hand in hand
(31:00):
with me. Uh. You know, I've always been kind of
vacillating from being direct saying what I want, am worrying
about what people think of me. How how do you
rid yourself of that? You know, you just have to
just know logically, humans are fickle. Humans are fickle beings,
(31:21):
and the things that we like today we won't like tomorrow.
We will change our reception of somebody's thoughts based on
the mood we're in, knowing that chasing human validation is
a futile mission because we will always disappoint somebody. Somebody
will always disagree with you, Somebody will always dislike you,
(31:42):
no matter what you do. So when we insist on
people pleasing, we're like chasing people's fickleness. And they don't
even know when they would like us. They don't even
know what we need to do to make them like us.
So it's exhausting. It is a hopeless mission, and it
is a waste of time. It is truly a waste
(32:05):
of time to try to receive the approval of most
humans because you won't get it. You can bend yourself
over backwards and somebody will still say you didn't bend avoid,
you didn't bend enough, That wasn't enough. So knowing that
I'm always like, I can't. I can't move with the
idea that I it's because I want a specific group
to like me, because the people who don't like me
(32:25):
will never like me. If you don't like me now,
you're never gonna like me. So if I'm already on
your I hate her list, you can keep me there.
You're not my people. I need to actually talk more
and deep in my connection with those who are my people,
the people who are already like Yes, I hear you,
I see you, I affirm what you're saying. So I
think we need to just know who are people are
(32:48):
and speak to them. As long as our people are good,
everybody else you don't have to like me. It's okay.
I can't win you over, nor is it my job
to win you over, because no one who meant is
more worse brare than another. So if I'm like constantly
trying to get you to like me. What about the
person over there who doesn't like No, I gotta spend
more effort on that. So I think we just gotta
(33:09):
let um let it go and recognize that you don't
even like everybody, right, so everybody shouldn't like you. I know,
a whole bunch of people hate me, which is great,
because a whole lot of people love me too. And
they're the ones who I want to feed. They're the
ones who I want to affirm. They're the ones who
I want to spend some time with and hopefully loan
courage and power when they need everybody else I'm not
(33:33):
there people, which is fine. Let's talk about the three
sections of your book Loving because one is be, one
is say, one is do, And I wonder if you
could just help us understand the takeaway from each of
these sections. Be Let's start with B fear. Half the
battle is with our own self, our own insecurities, and
(33:53):
our own baggage. Go yes. In the B section I'm
talking about we have to get our mindset together because
what we think possible is a self fulfilling prophecy. Unfortunately,
so we have to get rid of a lot of
these attachments to people's thoughts about us, a lot of
these attachments to people's dreams that they have for us,
some of these attachments to our own negative self talk
(34:15):
about ourselves. You gotta get rid of it. It's not
it's not used, it's not useful. It is a waste
of our time and energy and better. And it makes
you get stuck. You absolutely get stuck. It will weigh
you down. It will weigh you down. It's like you're
sitting on the couch while like holding onto a boulder.
It will weigh you down. So what what is your
solution for that? Gash yourself up, hype yourself up all
(34:40):
the time, have something at the ready. And in my
first chapter, I make people write in a Reekian life
mission statement, because I want you to have at the
ready something that is affirming about you, written down, noted, documented,
whether it's laminated and sitting by your computer, whether it's
by your mirror. Something. So in those days when you're
feeling way down, where somebody has called you a name
(35:03):
that doesn't belong to you, or somebody has said you're
not enough, that you're too much, refer back to this thing,
Read it over and over again until you feel okay again,
and then just keep it there because you might need
it the day after. Say, we've got to say what's difficult,
even when our voices shake. Yes. So after you get
(35:23):
the mindset together, now you have to start putting the
words to this new boldness and this confidence. Why, because
we've gotta say it out loud. There's power in our
in our words, there's and and it basically establishes and
keeps us accountable. We have to be the person who
is in the room, not being silent as something is
awful going on, but saying you know what, I'm gonna
(35:44):
challenge that, and I'm gonna do it thoughtfully, but I'm
gonna challenge that because I want to be proud of
any place that I'm in. And finally, do grow anyway,
do what's heard anyway change anyway? Yes. So now you
gotta put some some action to the words. You know,
how are you moving different? What is the thing that
(36:04):
you're gonna do to make sure you're supporting yourself, to
make sure you're honoring yourself? Um, And sometimes self care
looks like saying no, you know. Sometimes self care looks
like firing yourself. Sometimes it looks like building your squad.
Gotta do actions. So be right, get your mind right,
(36:24):
say use your words, do put some action to it.
Air book had a transformational effect before it was even published.
On your editor neg leader. Yes, yeah, yeah, and tell
us how she successfully used your advice after reading the manuscript. Yes.
(36:45):
So Meg read my manuscript last year. She was the
first person to read the manuscript top down. And when
she sent my first draft back, it's um she had
at its comments on the in the side and she said,
from my ask for more chapter, which is chapter four,
she was like, just so you know, this chapter made
(37:06):
me ask my boss for a raise. And I was like, amazing.
Already I was really thrilled for her because I'm like, yes,
come on and do the thing the book is telling you.
In December, um our last book meeting for the year,
she was like, so I have some great news. I
have been promoted to editorial director of Penguin Life. Not
(37:27):
only did she get the raise, she got a promotion
and she was like, your book is what really compelled
me to make that ask, and it's changed her life.
She's like, your book has changed my life, and for me,
that is the best case scenario of doing this type
of work knowing that my words can compel somebody to
do something concrete that shifts their life in something in
(37:50):
a really good way. I was like, Wow, Okay, so
the book is already a success. In my book, like
with my criteria, this book is already a wild least
successful thing. What about having the courage to join forces
with other people to really move the needle on some
of these thorny cultural issues that are so um gosh
(38:16):
entrenched in our society. And what is your perspective on that?
Because obviously these are individual things that people can do,
but what about things that they can do when they
collaborate with other like minded people. Yeah. I think this
is also where it's important for us to be able
to trust each other and tell each other the truth,
(38:38):
because collaboration with other people is teamwork, right, and for
teamwork to go very well, there has to be foundational
trust and there has to be room for being challenged.
We absolutely have to start getting together to solve bigger issues,
because that's why they say teamwork makes the dreamwork. Two
heads always better than one. Our collaboration is necessary, and
(39:01):
we're all being collaborative in that you know even this
podcast is collaborative. The fact that you are speaking to
other people and bringing different thoughts together. That is the
power of the world we living and we all have
to start rise into that occasion. So whenever we are
in the room, that's our ability, and that's our platform
in the moment. I think people are very people think
(39:21):
platforms and collaboration comes with having four thousand followers. No,
I think the platform we all have are the rooms
that were in the people. We get to talk to
our friends, our colleagues, people we might have never met,
but we know we can text them because everybody has
an Internet friend. Okay, that's our platform, and we collaborate
and just seeing the humanity in each other and saying, listen,
(39:44):
here's the thing that we gotta do. Can you join
me and fixing this? And that's why we all have
to do our parts in being troublemakers. It's why we
all have to kind of commit to saying, if I
am in the room, I would be proud of what
happens in it. I will be the person who's asking questions,
who is making sure that we've checked out our blind spots.
You know, the person who asked the one extra question
(40:05):
that might lead us to a black hole of discussion,
but it's needed for this thing to be as thoughtful
as possible. We need everybody to do that. It can't
just be one person doing it. You know, we're always
looking for Superman to save the day. And I'm like,
we all have red capes. You don't have to wait
for Superman. Use your own cape. And finally, I love
(40:26):
just listening to you, lovey And and finally you you
quote John Lewis, who was such a great man about
you know, getting too necessary good trouble, which has become
obviously so associated with him and the life, the incredible
life he lived. But but you also say he's a
shining example of loaning courage. So how how what does
(40:49):
that mean exactly? And how can we all loan courage? Yeah?
I think we long encouraged by affirming each other. You know,
the late great John Lewis absolutely loan urged by modeling
what courage looked like. You know, he will He spoke
up when it was tough, He put his body on
the line when it was tough, and hoping people would
(41:09):
see him and say, I can also do something, even
if I'm not doing that I can do something. And
the piece about lone encouraged is especially real for me
because my Ted talk that now has all these million views.
I almost didn't do it. I have to turn it
down twice. I was about to turn down a third
time when I called my friend Unique Jones Gibson, who
you know, yeah, is one of the besties. I called
(41:32):
her and I was about to say I was I
was telling her. I was like, hey, Pat Mitchell wants
me to do this Ted talk. It's in three weeks.
I don't think I can do it. Everybody else has
already had a coach, everybody else has already been rehearsed,
they have their talks together. I would have to come
up with my own talk and presented and on the
stage in three weeks. And Unique literally said, everybody, ain't you.
(41:54):
She's like, you're not everybody. Your speaking has been your coaching,
You've been on the stage every three days, you have
eight years of experience. You are not everybody. So get
off my phone, go right this talk and kill it.
And that is the moment when I actually deleted the
email I was gonna send decline it for the third time.
(42:16):
And what Unique did then when she loaned me courage.
She reminded me of my power when I actually wasn't
sure of it. And that's what I hope John Lewis's
life does for a lot of people. That's what I
hope when they see people like me who show up boldly. Also,
I hope we're loaning people courage constantly. I hope they're
thinking about my words in the meeting with their boss
(42:37):
when they're asking for the promotion. I hope they're thinking
I should have that tough conversation with my friend. And
I hope when they're asked to celebrate each other of themselves,
they don't feel bad about doing it. We can all
loan each other courage from afar and when we're right
up in the room so affirming each other's experiences in
our lives. Why do you think women haven't done a
(42:59):
better job of loaning each other courage that they have
been here before? I think competitive. I mean I've been
very competitive through the years. I can't say that I
necessarily done a good enough job loaning courage to other
women who I see as threats. So how do you
how do you get rid of that? I think natural
(43:22):
impulse to see other women who may be vying for
a job that is the same as yours, as sisters
and not threats. Yeah, I think about it as one.
Women have been programmed to not be supportive of each
other because the patriarchy, the systems we live in have
told us that if one of us wins, the rest
(43:43):
of us failed. So we've been told that scarcity is
the way to move, when really it's abundance. Because if
you get a position I want, that doesn't mean I failed.
Actually means you want, which means hopefully you opened the
door that allows more women to come behind you. I
think for us is understanding that, to be quiet, honest,
competition isn't real. You know, even if you are in
(44:07):
a hundred meter dash, the person who wins is the
person who runs the fastest race. When you win and
you're facing twenty people and you end up getting ten seconds,
maybe that type seconds might not actually be the one
that wins the race. You might do another race and
(44:27):
you ran fixteen seconds in that one. It doesn't matter
what other people are doing. If your best is what
showed up. Your best was enough, whether or not you
came in first place by product. So I'm always thinking
if even if I am up for a keynote with
another woman and they're choosing somebody else, all I know
is my job in that moment is to put my
(44:48):
best foot forward. But if they're best foot forward, actually
best mind, congrats you won that. It doesn't mean there's
fewer jobs for me. It doesn't mean it takes me
out of the game completely. It doesn't mean I'm not
a great speaker. It just means that person's best in
that instance beat mine. Doesn't mean mind sucked. And it's
(45:09):
a constant affirmation. And I think just thinking through the
fact that the thing, the machine that has been put
in place that has told us there's only one job,
thirty people are vying for it, and if you don't
get the one job, your life is ruined. Break the machine.
We gotta start breaking the machine. Like, I'm totally not
interested in participating in those types of games where it's
(45:31):
like one and everybody else is not good. No, no,
not interested, not interested at all. So yeah, me and
my friends. Again, I have a lot of friends who
in the same industry as me, who are probably up
for some of the same keynote speaking gigs, and I'm
just like where it gets it gets it whoever it gets,
and then the next one might be mine, or maybe
(45:52):
I get in and I say, huh, who's your close
and keynote you know who I know who's amazing her?
And then now he gets go to the same conference
everybody went. So we just have to start insisting on
using our power in these moments when people wanted to
be in competition twisted on his head. My whole thing is,
if I can't even do something, for example, I'll pass
(46:13):
it on to another woman who I know, Hey, I
know I can't do it, but she can. She's amazing
at that. And oftentimes they'll say yes. So we got
to use our power for each other, not against it
and shred the machine. Your how old, lovely? I am
thirty six? How do you get to be so wise
at such a young age. I observe and I absorb,
(46:38):
and I am a forever student. Um. I have been
pretty much an old soul since I was young. My
mom tells me that all the time. Anybody who knows
me when I was little tells me that all the time. Um.
But I think I just continue to absorb the good
in the world so the bad does not take over
my psyche. I'm constantly like, what can I learn? How
(47:02):
can I serve? And how can I honor myself if
I'm honoring everybody else around me? So yeah, Forever student,
Well love e Agii Jones. You're so fun to talk
to you. I feel very inspired just having this conversation,
not to mention you have the most beautiful smile. Your
new book is Professional Troublemaker the Fear Fighter Manual. I
(47:26):
think there's really valuable life lessons for everyone in this book. Women, men, anybody, Katie,
thank you. That is an honor. Next Question with Katie
Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie
(47:47):
Kurk Media. The executive producers Army, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz.
The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements,
Adriana Fassio, and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and
mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call,
(48:08):
go to Katie Correct dot com. You can also find
me at Katie Correct on Instagram and all my social
media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio visit
the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Hi everyone, It's Katie Kuric and welcome to Next Question.
Love E A. G. I. E. Jones is a writer,
a speaker, and the author of two best selling books,
I'm Judging You That Do Better Manual and her latest
professional troublemaker, The Fear Fighting Manual. I call my book
manifestos like life manifestos, kind of essay collections that are
(00:26):
based in lessons that I know that if we take
them on, we will be better for it. Love These books,
like Lovey herself, are trying to help the rest of
us do better for ourselves and in turn, the people
around us. And let me tell you, this is one
of the most inspiring conversations I've had. Lovey imparts her
(00:46):
wisdom and drops some seriously sage thought gems. We're always
looking for Superman to save the day, and I'm like,
we all have red capes. New levels come with new devils.
We've got to use our power for each other, not
against it, and shred the machine. That's just a taste.
There is a lot more where that came from. I
hope you have a pen and paper with you, because
(01:07):
your Lovey lesson starts now. Lovey, I think a lot
of listeners probably have heard of you and know who
you are. But there are some people listening to this
podcast it might be thinking, who's lovey? So why don't
you give us your bio? And two minutes are less
love e I'm love you Jai Jones and I am
(01:30):
a New York Times Best On author, a speaker, a
digital strategists, a lover of shoes uh, a Nigerian girl,
and a Chicagoan. I am a graduate of the Universe
of Illinois. Shout out to the fighting at line. I
my degrees in psychology, which I thought I was going
to actually practice, but I still love the idea of
(01:53):
like how the human mind works, So maybe one day
I can still do something related to it. And then
what I'll My favorite color is red. I eat rice
almost every day, and um, I'm obsessed with hats and blazers.
Tell us how you got from uh psychology nature? And
(02:15):
in a way, I think your work does explore the
human mind, because I think you're very emotionally intelligent, and
you connect with people and you see trends and all
those things. I think take a certain knowledge of psychology.
But how did you get to where you are today?
A writer, A speaker, a thought leader really in many ways. Yeah,
(02:36):
So eighteen years ago I started my first blog. It
was my freshman year in college. My friend's peer pressure
into doing it. They were like, we're getting weblogs, That's
what it was called back then. So I got one,
and I chronicled my college career and you know whatever,
undergrad shenanigans. I was going through exams. I was getting
decent because I actually thought I was gonna be a doctor.
(02:58):
So starting in college my major psychology premed. I ended
up getting a d my first semester in chemistry, first
and last year of my academic career, and I dropped
that premed very quickly. I was like, nope, nope, I'm
not supposed to be a doctor. I don't even like hospitals.
So graduated from college, deleted the college blog, and started
(03:19):
awesomely lovey dot com, the blog that I still have today.
Um and instead of talking about my life, I was
talking about the world as I saw it, TV, regular randomness, race, politics,
anything I really felt like. And I was working full
time as a marketing coordinator for a nonprofit. So I'd
go to work nine to five and I come home
(03:40):
and blog, which is this really nice hobby that I
had um well, that hobby won its first award in
two thousand and nine, and I got laid off my
marketing job in two thousand ten April. Tents almost been
eleven years, and I basically never had a chance to
get another job because it was basically like the universe,
and Gud pointed me towards You're supposed to be using
(04:02):
your words to make people feel joy, make them think critically,
and compel them to take actions that leaves this world
better than they found it. So I was doing marketing
and branding consulting for small businesses as I looked for
other jobs. I still looked for other jobs because I
was like, no, no, you need to go find yourself
a full time job. You need a four O one
(04:22):
K and your shoe habit needs some supporting. So I
was still looking for jobs and sending resumes. I actually
found out I was still sending out resumes up until
like November. But I was, you know, doing what I
love really writing and and social strategy and digital strategy.
But I basically never had a chance to get another
(04:43):
job because clearly I was supposed to be working for
myself doing this under my own entity. UM. I came
up with my first book, Idea, and it was after
I was plagiarized by a journal lists who took three
paragraphs of my work dropped it in his without any
(05:03):
credit to me, and he emailed me after I went in.
He emailed me. It was like I didn't know. I
wasn't supposed to do that. And I remember saying, is
there not a limited edition handbook on how not to
be terrible at being humans? And that is what led
me to writing and I'm judging you to do better
manual UM, which end up coming out in It hit
(05:24):
the New York Times list instantly. That changed my life
in my career, and then Shonda Rhymes optioned it. Yes, Yes,
Shanda optioned it when she was at ABC Studios. And
it just was this thing that really got me to
be in rooms that I didn't even know existed. A
(05:44):
year later, I did a TED talk called Getting Comfortable
with Being Uncomfortable. I realized comfort is overrated because being quiet,
it's comfortable, keeping things the way they've been. It's comfortable,
and all comfort has done is maintained the status quote.
So we've got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable by
speaking these hard truths when they're necessary. And I the
(06:08):
talk point viral had a million views in the month,
and that talk now has I think five point six
million views. Another career changer, and that talk is what
led me to write my new book, my latest book,
Professional Troublemaker, The Fear Fighter Manual, which just debuted at
three on the New York Times list. So that was
(06:28):
that was exciting, And so yeah, my path is a
series of moments that I didn't necessarily plan that led
to something greater, being open to the universe and where
it takes you, which is obviously what you did, Lovey.
And I want to talk about the new book book,
but I do want to mention the other book, the
(06:49):
previous book. I'm I'm judging you that you better manual.
When people say what are these books, what do you say, Lovey?
They are part memoir because I usually tell stories of myself,
because I put myself in the middle of my writing
to make sure that I am not making myself self exceptional,
that I am a guide instead of an expert in
(07:10):
this whole thing. And my books don't take themselves so
seriously because I don't take myself so seriously. So I'll
talk through what I've learned. I'll make you laugh while
you're reading it, um and hopefully make an idea that
you've heard before stick better, Like what giv me an
example of that? Lovely? So think about imposter syndrome, which
(07:32):
we've heard a thousand times, right, I think impostor syndrome
is you're putting on them. You're feeling like you're wearing
a mask that you've not earned, or you're wearing a
coat that does not belong to you. And I think
about the moments when we're all in rooms that feel like,
oh my gosh, I can't believe I'm here, and imposter
syndrome comes roaring back, and I'm like, you know, spend
(07:52):
less time being worried about how you've made it in
the room, spend more time saying, well, I am here,
so I'm to make sure I bring value to the room.
Imposter syndrome can be a driver, not a stunter. Right,
if we let it stunt us will let us say.
It will make us say no to yes opportunities. You know,
if we let it drive us, it will make us
say yes. I might not feel like I'm ready, but
(08:15):
I'll be ready, so I'm gonna be better at my craft.
I'll make sure I'm working hard. I will make sure
I'm being authentically myself, and that way I won't feel
like I'm wearing a mask in that room. Sometimes, though,
I think you have imposter syndrome when you feel like
everyone is at a certain level and you're not right.
So how do you I think there's a real confidence
(08:37):
barrier to figuring out, well, what can I get to
this room and not worrying about why you're there? How
do you break through really convincing yourself that what you
say is worth hearing? Mm hmm, So I really I
have to put in the perspective of we are often
(08:58):
thinking everybody else's extraordinary, but us right, We're thinking the
person who's in the room, who looks like they're really
comfortable in the room, never had a fear, but they
did too. They might even have a fear right then
and there, So normalizing the idea that we're actually all
walking around with all these silent fears, and then also
affirming yourself in knowing that your story, in your words,
(09:21):
are no less valid than anybody else in the room,
that in itself as a practice. You know, why is
somebody else's story more valid than yours? Why why should
they be more important than yours? There are no no
real extraordinary people to me. I think we see extraordinary
people and they're really ordinary people who decided to do
(09:42):
something over and over again. It's stuck, right, So people
aren't born extraordinary where I mean, there are some people
with extraordinary gifts, But I don't think you're just born
extraordinary and then one day everybody knows your name. There
are a lot of extraordinarily gifted people whose names we
don't know because they didn't practice it out loud, you know,
who didn't show their art. So I'm always thinking the
(10:03):
people who are in those rooms that you might want
to be in, think about the fact that they just
happened to do something over and over again enough to
where somebody said, all right, I see you, I'm gonna
ask you in here. So what is the thing that
you just have to commit to doing over and over
again if you want to be in the rooms that
you are seeing everybody else in More with the Professional
(10:27):
Troublemaker in Just a Moment. Your book is called Professional Troublemaker,
The Fear Fighter Manual and I wanted you to define
what a troublemaker is, but first what a troublemaker isn't. Yeah,
(10:51):
a troublemaker is not a contrarian or the devil's advocate
who's always like, well, let's look at it differently. They're
not a troll who is throwing chaos bombs in a room.
Professional troublemakers are people who are committed, dedicated to elevating
the rooms that they're in and disrupting for the greater good.
(11:12):
You know. They're the person who sits in the meeting
and says, hey, the campaign idea, I would love for
us to be a little bit more thoughtful about it.
You know. They're the ones who are sitting at the
dinner table where if your uncle makes a joke that's
not appropriate, they'll be like, hey, uncle, not good, you know.
And they're the friends. They're a friend that we all
have who always wanted to have a tough conversation even
(11:33):
though it might make other people uncomfortable. They're like, let's
let's talk about this thing because it's important. I think
troublemakers are necessary in the world, and they're they're being
silenced more than they're being celebrated. And that is a mistake.
I love what you write. A professional troublemakers, someone who
critiques the world, the shoddy systems and the people who
(11:56):
refuse to do better. As a writer, a speaker, and
a shaking night Jerry, and I am the person giving
the side eye to folks for doing trash things. I'm
the person who is unable to be quiet when I
feel cheated. I'm the person who says what you were
thinking and feeling but dare not say because you have
a job to protect or you're afraid of how it
will land. Yeah, that's pretty fearless. You don't You're not
(12:20):
afraid to express yourself. It seems to me that we're
living in very treacherous times, you know, in terms of
expressing yourself and being misconstrued or taken wrongly. I think,
especially as these culture shifts are unfolding happily before our eyes,
(12:41):
how do you kind of balance this need to speak out?
You know, speak truth to power, but also be received
in a way that will help facilitate understanding and uh
changes in attitude and real oppress If that makes sense. Yeah,
(13:02):
I think, you know, with speaking out and that one
thing that people must understand about troublemakers is that we
don't just speak up because we're not afraid. We do
it in spite of the fact that we are afraid.
You know, we are bold, and we come across as that.
But it's not because we don't think there aren't going
to be consequences. Sometimes it doesn't mean we don't we're
not afraid of the fact that, yes, one person might
(13:24):
misconstrue what we say, our intention and blow it up, right,
it's just that we say, I understand that's a risk,
and I will take it. And it is one of
those things. And it's not even about being fearless, because
I think fearlessness is not even not just about you're
not afraid. I think fearlessness is that you're not letting
fear make you do less. So you go, Okay, I'm
(13:44):
about to say this thing that might be controversial, but
I really believe it and I think it's the truth,
and I'm gonna say it, and you go, I know
it might not land well, some people might not like it,
but I think it's important that we have this dialogue
and you say it knowing that you are also not
in control of how anybody will receive it. One of
the things that we must understand in this world is
(14:06):
that the only people that we have any type of
real control overs ourselves and everybody else is a crack shoot.
How everybody you know takes whatever you say is really
up in the air. You might say one thing and
it lands well, and then the next thing people go,
why would you say that? And that's why you have
to control yourself in terms of how thoughtful your being.
(14:28):
It's why I have a three question framework that I
use to ask myself whenever i'm I want to say
something that feels tough or that people might disagree with.
It's do I mean it? Can I defend it? Can
I say thoughtfully? If the answer is just all those
three questions, I say it knowing that it might still
land in a way that somebody doesn't like. But I've
(14:50):
done my risk mitigation and I've done my obligation because
I think if I am constantly moving based on how
how I think people receive it, my moves won't be
authentic to me anymore. I'll be controlled by what I
think is going to be the impact all the time.
At which point I would take no risks, I would
(15:12):
say nothing real. I will stay in a safe bubble
and only say the things that I know will go well,
which for a thought leader, I can't do that because
what how do how do I grow as a thought
leader if I'm constantly only saying what's safe? Um, how
do I? How do you an example? Give me an
example of you if when you put something out there
(15:34):
it met all three criteria for going ahead and speaking
out and atlantic or didn't. I mean. Chapter seven of
my book is called failed Loudly, and it is chronicles
(15:54):
the time when I made my biggest public fail where
I trend it on Twitter because of it a come
that I thought was innoxious that ends up being oh
my god, I can't believe she said it. And that
moment for me was a lesson because I was like,
it was less about what I said, it was about
it was more about how people wanted to react in
(16:15):
that moment. It was also more about a lesson I
need to learn about the fact that because I am
a thought leader, because I am I have a bigger platform,
my my words are engaged with differently, and the platform
being bigger means more people are listening. There are more
chances to be misunderstood. It doesn't mean I shut up.
(16:38):
It doesn't mean I say less. It actually means that one,
I continue to give myself the chance to fail too,
because each fail is a growth opportunity, because I am
a better thinker because of that situation. And then three,
we cannot control other people and the fear that a
lot of us have, which is being humiliar at it
(17:00):
publicly or you know, ended up trending for something that
is not positive. I went through it. It did not
kill me, right. It's one of those painful lessons that
we're always afraid of that moment though, And what's funny
is in the moment when that moment happened, I actually
(17:22):
wasn't afraid of it. It was something that felt innocua,
something that wasn't even thinking was a problem. So I
think it reinforced for me that my mission and my
purpose my words are bigger than any one moment, and
I must continue to use it in a real way,
and I need to be more thoughtful. All of that,
(17:44):
it was like a big storm of I need to
show you that new levels come with new devils. But
also when the worst case scenario happens, you can still recover,
You can still your space up you can still move
forward and do your work. It will not destroy you. All.
(18:05):
Every mistake, even big ones, are not destruction mistakes, right,
because we're always afraid of the destruction. So I was like,
all right, if I made it through there, I can
do something big. But you do just say new levels,
with new levels, new devils. Yeah, that's good to remember
(18:26):
because I think people that's one of the things that
people live in fear of, right, that they'll get a
clap back, or they'll get you know, told no, or
they'll get something and it will not destroy you basically correct. Correct.
I think we're often afraid of the worst case scenario,
(18:47):
but then we'll use it to it will opt out
of the best case scenario in the process, so we
won't say that thing that feels tough because we're afraid
of the major clap back. But the best case scenario
to be ships in the world could be ships and
how somebody's thinking could be impactful to somebody somewhere who
feels alone in this It could help normalize somebody's pain.
(19:09):
And how often are we opted out of that piece
that impact that we can have because we're afraid of
our egos being hurt. You dedicate this book to your grandmother.
Tell me about her and why you got such courage
from the person she She was. Yeah, my grandmother Fumilia
following we called her Mama following. She was a fireball.
(19:34):
She was passion, love, kindness all rolled in one package.
And my grandmother took up space without apology in a
big way. She allowed herself to be celebrated, and she
never apologized for herself. You know, she walked with so
much pride about just her persona that in her presence
(19:56):
it was hard to feel bad about yourself because you
would just be like, look at her. And she gave
me the gift of that because I didn't realize that
what she was doing was giving me permission to be
who I am in a real way. She never had
to be like be yourself. She just was herself and
I was watching her, and I'm like, okay, And I
learned a lot from just seeing how she navigated through
(20:18):
the world, which is often not kind to black women.
My grandmother was like, this is who I am. You're
gonna deal and you're probably gonna love me. Like you know,
she was very kind in that anything that she had,
if somebody else was missing it, She'll give it to them.
She would. I've seen my grandmother I should have visitors
and somebody said, oh my god, I like your shirt,
(20:39):
and she would literally go change and say here to
the person who just complimented her shirt. The ring that
I wear on this hand that I basically haven't taken
off like twenty years, was hers. One day I was like, oh, Grandma,
that's really nice. She literally slips this ring, this gold ring,
off her finger and handed it to me and I've
(21:00):
been wearing it ever since. She was that woman who
was just benevolent, beyond understanding, but she didn't do it
by sacrificing herself, and that was really key. I think
women are often told, or the messaging that we get
is that we need to be of service, even if
it is of detriment to ourselves. She was of service,
but she was never gonna sacrifice herself for it. I
(21:23):
didn't see it, so I was learning all of that
and I think I carry that with me and I'm
thankful that she gave me that permission. How old were
you when you came to this country. I was nine,
and I'm curious how much the immigrant experience for you.
Lovey impacted sort of how you move in the world
(21:45):
and how you see the world and how you want
the world to see you. Mm hmm. I think it's
a big part of how I see myself and just
everything about me, my the way I write, the way
I approach humored, the way my swag is very Nigerian,
and um my face is very Nigerian. Um. Yeah, I
think I see the world in a way that's different
(22:05):
because knowing what it's like to come from a place
where everybody looks like you and now everybody who looks
like you is considered less than it does shock your system.
But I think I also had the bubble that protected
me at home. You know, I kept that with me
and I and I am service oriented and that my
(22:30):
my family especially, that's been a big part of us.
Like it's almost cultural for us to to give, Like
if you were to come to my house and I
only had a one bedroom, for example, Culturally, I'm supposed
to let you have my bed and I sleep on
the couch, And that is deeply embedded in how I
operate to um and if I have too much of excess,
(22:52):
I must have somebody else must get some of it.
But I think, Yeah, just how I even approach everything
food from the food I eat, the music I listened
to a lot. Afrobeats is very much embedded in my culture.
The fact that I can tell the stories of mine
grandmother and introduced people to new concepts that they might
not have heard. That's in your by land. It's all
(23:14):
my culture. And I think, I I'm I'm proudly Nigerian American,
and I'm hoping that somebody else somewhere just to see
me and say, you know what, I'm going to use
her as the example to my parents as what's possible
for me. A lot of I think women and women
of color have dealt with not having enough role models
(23:38):
in their lives, not seen enough women before them. Too
many of them are are first when they should be second, third, fourth,
and fifth. And I'm curious how that, how that affected
you and where you saw it those role models other
than your family. Yeah. So for a long time I
(24:00):
did not call myself a writer because I thought writers
were journalists or novelists. I didn't see an example of
a writer who was an essayist who wrote like I did.
So it actually did cause me a bit of a
mental roadblock for a while because I was like, yeah,
I can't be a writer like Tony Morrison's writer, but
(24:20):
Tony writes novels, so I can't. That's not me. And
I think about how just not having the example stopped
me so much from that that it brings me joy
that I can be somebody's example. Now, you know, in
terms of writers, there's so many of us now too
that exists who are essays, who aren't just writing the novels,
and so the kids who are Generation Z, they have
(24:43):
a lot of options to look to like that's possible,
that's version, it's possible to and that's the gift that
we didn't have. So part of the work that I
do and how I show up in the world is
with the hopes that somebody else has seen me and
being able to be like, Okay, because Letty did that
and can do that, that means I can't also, and
(25:05):
it's possible. It's that concrete example that we often need
to know what is like possible for us. So whatever
the example that I didn't have, I became that example
for myself and then now I'm hoping I'm the example
for other people. I think, what's so exciting about the
culture today, and there are a lot of bills about
social media, but the way you can reach people, you
(25:28):
no longer have few outlets with with gatekeepers who all
basically look like the same person, you have the same background,
determine what's worthy or what's not. You can put things
out in the world and and let people respond. And
(25:48):
that has changed everything, don't you think. Yeah, Social has
democratized everything. I've been early adopter of all the platforms,
so I've been on Facebook since July's thousand four. I've
been on Twitter since September two thou eight, and Instagram
since twelve. And I've just watched all the platforms unlocked
(26:10):
doors in ways that's mind boggling. People create an account
and in three months, if they have the right content,
have a million followers, and we'll have all this option
of who to work with. And I think it's beautiful
because the lack of that, we have to strive for
(26:32):
every bit of it, and social now opening that door.
That means we're we are every day we're getting access
to brilliant minds who who previously would not have had
the chance because of all the locked doors that were
controlled by a handful of people. Now some of these
doors are wide open because you just sign up for
an account. Free account opens up a door. I hope
(26:55):
more people are doing it. How women can dump those
are gender roles? Amen to that more advice from Lovy
in just a moment. There's still a lot of cultural
conditioning and implicit bias to use sort of monitored day
(27:18):
buzzwords that keep women in general from doing the things
that men have always done that they have not felt
comfortable doing, bringing attention to themselves, being considered a bit
being outspoken, um, you know, not necessarily adhering to gender
norms that have really been established obviously for centuries. But
(27:44):
still I think the remnants of those pressures still exists.
And and what do you tell women too in terms
of being able to to kind of straddle that or
perhaps even better, put these expectations aside and kind of
(28:06):
push forward, because we've been wired to feel uncomfortable when
we pushed through gender roles and expectations. And and it's
still they're still very prevalent in the culture. Yeah, I
think we should dump them. I think we should dump them.
And I'm hoping this book helps people dump some of
it because one of the things that women are especially
(28:27):
concerned about is how do I make sure I don't
brag about myself if I'm talking about something I did.
If you're stating the fact of something you did is bragging,
then brag on. If I can say to you, my
second book is a New York Times by seller, and
I say it in any tone actually, and it's considered bragging.
(28:51):
But I'm like, that was actually just a fact, right.
I think women need to get rid of the ideas
that we should be these humble creatures who do not
own what we're amazing at. I don't think us diminishing
our dopeness. Does anybody any favors? So yeah, man get
to say like, oh yeah, I did this, I raised
this much a mount for my company, and everybody takes
(29:13):
this fact and says, got it. Respect. We say something
that we did and were instantly told she's bragging. Well,
you know what, let me be bragging them. You know,
I don't think we were brought here to be humble
in the way we're thinking. Humility is valid. But humility
does not mean you diminish or you self deprecate. It
means you know what you're amazing at, but you also
(29:34):
give credit to all the systems around you, all the
people who have allowed you to to get there, the
training you've gotten, your parents were giving you the opportunities.
My humility is based in the fact that I know
that my God giving gifts I've honed over years um
and I've been given access to the life terms to
do this because my mom made the sacrifice to move
(29:56):
us to the United States. My grandmother lived this hard
life before and is fully joyful by the time I
met her. You know, and all the people who came
before me, all the writers of color who came before me,
all the black women scribes who came before me, I
give them credit. But it does not mean I then
sit here and diminish my gifts just to make somebody
(30:17):
else feel better. So I think, women, the sooner that
we get rid of everybody's expectations of us, the better
we will be for it. Let us make money without guilt,
Let us be amazing at our work and being confident
without guilt. Let us, you know, ask for what we
want without any guilt attached. And when we start doing that,
(30:38):
we will start soaring even more because we don't need
to shackle ourselves to the ground to make everybody else
feel better? What about the desire on the part of
so many women? And I think I speak for myself.
I'm a pleaser and it's important for me to be liked,
which doesn't necessarily or hasn't necessarily gone hand in hand
(31:00):
with me. Uh. You know, I've always been kind of
vacillating from being direct saying what I want, am worrying
about what people think of me. How how do you
rid yourself of that? You know, you just have to
just know logically, humans are fickle. Humans are fickle beings,
(31:21):
and the things that we like today we won't like tomorrow.
We will change our reception of somebody's thoughts based on
the mood we're in, knowing that chasing human validation is
a futile mission because we will always disappoint somebody. Somebody
will always disagree with you, Somebody will always dislike you,
(31:42):
no matter what you do. So when we insist on
people pleasing, we're like chasing people's fickleness. And they don't
even know when they would like us. They don't even
know what we need to do to make them like us.
So it's exhausting. It is a hopeless mission, and it
is a waste of time. It is truly a waste
(32:05):
of time to try to receive the approval of most
humans because you won't get it. You can bend yourself
over backwards and somebody will still say you didn't bend avoid,
you didn't bend enough, That wasn't enough. So knowing that
I'm always like, I can't. I can't move with the
idea that I it's because I want a specific group
to like me, because the people who don't like me
(32:25):
will never like me. If you don't like me now,
you're never gonna like me. So if I'm already on
your I hate her list, you can keep me there.
You're not my people. I need to actually talk more
and deep in my connection with those who are my people,
the people who are already like Yes, I hear you,
I see you, I affirm what you're saying. So I
think we need to just know who are people are
(32:48):
and speak to them. As long as our people are good,
everybody else you don't have to like me. It's okay.
I can't win you over, nor is it my job
to win you over, because no one who meant is
more worse brare than another. So if I'm like constantly
trying to get you to like me. What about the
person over there who doesn't like No, I gotta spend
more effort on that. So I think we just gotta
(33:09):
let um let it go and recognize that you don't
even like everybody, right, so everybody shouldn't like you. I know,
a whole bunch of people hate me, which is great,
because a whole lot of people love me too. And
they're the ones who I want to feed. They're the
ones who I want to affirm. They're the ones who
I want to spend some time with and hopefully loan
courage and power when they need everybody else I'm not
(33:33):
there people, which is fine. Let's talk about the three
sections of your book Loving because one is be, one
is say, one is do, And I wonder if you
could just help us understand the takeaway from each of
these sections. Be Let's start with B fear. Half the
battle is with our own self, our own insecurities, and
(33:53):
our own baggage. Go yes. In the B section I'm
talking about we have to get our mindset together because
what we think possible is a self fulfilling prophecy. Unfortunately,
so we have to get rid of a lot of
these attachments to people's thoughts about us, a lot of
these attachments to people's dreams that they have for us,
some of these attachments to our own negative self talk
(34:15):
about ourselves. You gotta get rid of it. It's not
it's not used, it's not useful. It is a waste
of our time and energy and better. And it makes
you get stuck. You absolutely get stuck. It will weigh
you down. It will weigh you down. It's like you're
sitting on the couch while like holding onto a boulder.
It will weigh you down. So what what is your
solution for that? Gash yourself up, hype yourself up all
(34:40):
the time, have something at the ready. And in my
first chapter, I make people write in a Reekian life
mission statement, because I want you to have at the
ready something that is affirming about you, written down, noted, documented,
whether it's laminated and sitting by your computer, whether it's
by your mirror. Something. So in those days when you're
feeling way down, where somebody has called you a name
(35:03):
that doesn't belong to you, or somebody has said you're
not enough, that you're too much, refer back to this thing,
Read it over and over again until you feel okay again,
and then just keep it there because you might need
it the day after. Say, we've got to say what's difficult,
even when our voices shake. Yes. So after you get
(35:23):
the mindset together, now you have to start putting the
words to this new boldness and this confidence. Why, because
we've gotta say it out loud. There's power in our
in our words, there's and and it basically establishes and
keeps us accountable. We have to be the person who
is in the room, not being silent as something is
awful going on, but saying you know what, I'm gonna
(35:44):
challenge that, and I'm gonna do it thoughtfully, but I'm
gonna challenge that because I want to be proud of
any place that I'm in. And finally, do grow anyway,
do what's heard anyway change anyway? Yes. So now you
gotta put some some action to the words. You know,
how are you moving different? What is the thing that
(36:04):
you're gonna do to make sure you're supporting yourself, to
make sure you're honoring yourself? Um, And sometimes self care
looks like saying no, you know. Sometimes self care looks
like firing yourself. Sometimes it looks like building your squad.
Gotta do actions. So be right, get your mind right,
(36:24):
say use your words, do put some action to it.
Air book had a transformational effect before it was even published.
On your editor neg leader. Yes, yeah, yeah, and tell
us how she successfully used your advice after reading the manuscript. Yes.
(36:45):
So Meg read my manuscript last year. She was the
first person to read the manuscript top down. And when
she sent my first draft back, it's um she had
at its comments on the in the side and she said,
from my ask for more chapter, which is chapter four,
she was like, just so you know, this chapter made
(37:06):
me ask my boss for a raise. And I was like, amazing.
Already I was really thrilled for her because I'm like, yes,
come on and do the thing the book is telling you.
In December, um our last book meeting for the year,
she was like, so I have some great news. I
have been promoted to editorial director of Penguin Life. Not
(37:27):
only did she get the raise, she got a promotion
and she was like, your book is what really compelled
me to make that ask, and it's changed her life.
She's like, your book has changed my life, and for me,
that is the best case scenario of doing this type
of work knowing that my words can compel somebody to
do something concrete that shifts their life in something in
(37:50):
a really good way. I was like, Wow, Okay, so
the book is already a success. In my book, like
with my criteria, this book is already a wild least
successful thing. What about having the courage to join forces
with other people to really move the needle on some
of these thorny cultural issues that are so um gosh
(38:16):
entrenched in our society. And what is your perspective on that?
Because obviously these are individual things that people can do,
but what about things that they can do when they
collaborate with other like minded people. Yeah. I think this
is also where it's important for us to be able
to trust each other and tell each other the truth,
(38:38):
because collaboration with other people is teamwork, right, and for
teamwork to go very well, there has to be foundational
trust and there has to be room for being challenged.
We absolutely have to start getting together to solve bigger issues,
because that's why they say teamwork makes the dreamwork. Two
heads always better than one. Our collaboration is necessary, and
(39:01):
we're all being collaborative in that you know even this
podcast is collaborative. The fact that you are speaking to
other people and bringing different thoughts together. That is the
power of the world we living and we all have
to start rise into that occasion. So whenever we are
in the room, that's our ability, and that's our platform
in the moment. I think people are very people think
(39:21):
platforms and collaboration comes with having four thousand followers. No,
I think the platform we all have are the rooms
that were in the people. We get to talk to
our friends, our colleagues, people we might have never met,
but we know we can text them because everybody has
an Internet friend. Okay, that's our platform, and we collaborate
and just seeing the humanity in each other and saying, listen,
(39:44):
here's the thing that we gotta do. Can you join
me and fixing this? And that's why we all have
to do our parts in being troublemakers. It's why we
all have to kind of commit to saying, if I
am in the room, I would be proud of what
happens in it. I will be the person who's asking questions,
who is making sure that we've checked out our blind spots.
You know, the person who asked the one extra question
(40:05):
that might lead us to a black hole of discussion,
but it's needed for this thing to be as thoughtful
as possible. We need everybody to do that. It can't
just be one person doing it. You know, we're always
looking for Superman to save the day. And I'm like,
we all have red capes. You don't have to wait
for Superman. Use your own cape. And finally, I love
(40:26):
just listening to you, lovey And and finally you you
quote John Lewis, who was such a great man about
you know, getting too necessary good trouble, which has become
obviously so associated with him and the life, the incredible
life he lived. But but you also say he's a
shining example of loaning courage. So how how what does
(40:49):
that mean exactly? And how can we all loan courage? Yeah?
I think we long encouraged by affirming each other. You know,
the late great John Lewis absolutely loan urged by modeling
what courage looked like. You know, he will He spoke
up when it was tough, He put his body on
the line when it was tough, and hoping people would
(41:09):
see him and say, I can also do something, even
if I'm not doing that I can do something. And
the piece about lone encouraged is especially real for me
because my Ted talk that now has all these million views.
I almost didn't do it. I have to turn it
down twice. I was about to turn down a third
time when I called my friend Unique Jones Gibson, who
you know, yeah, is one of the besties. I called
(41:32):
her and I was about to say I was I
was telling her. I was like, hey, Pat Mitchell wants
me to do this Ted talk. It's in three weeks.
I don't think I can do it. Everybody else has
already had a coach, everybody else has already been rehearsed,
they have their talks together. I would have to come
up with my own talk and presented and on the
stage in three weeks. And Unique literally said, everybody, ain't you.
(41:54):
She's like, you're not everybody. Your speaking has been your coaching,
You've been on the stage every three days, you have
eight years of experience. You are not everybody. So get
off my phone, go right this talk and kill it.
And that is the moment when I actually deleted the
email I was gonna send decline it for the third time.
(42:16):
And what Unique did then when she loaned me courage.
She reminded me of my power when I actually wasn't
sure of it. And that's what I hope John Lewis's
life does for a lot of people. That's what I
hope when they see people like me who show up boldly. Also,
I hope we're loaning people courage constantly. I hope they're
thinking about my words in the meeting with their boss
(42:37):
when they're asking for the promotion. I hope they're thinking
I should have that tough conversation with my friend. And
I hope when they're asked to celebrate each other of themselves,
they don't feel bad about doing it. We can all
loan each other courage from afar and when we're right
up in the room so affirming each other's experiences in
our lives. Why do you think women haven't done a
(42:59):
better job of loaning each other courage that they have
been here before? I think competitive. I mean I've been
very competitive through the years. I can't say that I
necessarily done a good enough job loaning courage to other
women who I see as threats. So how do you
how do you get rid of that? I think natural
(43:22):
impulse to see other women who may be vying for
a job that is the same as yours, as sisters
and not threats. Yeah, I think about it as one.
Women have been programmed to not be supportive of each
other because the patriarchy, the systems we live in have
told us that if one of us wins, the rest
(43:43):
of us failed. So we've been told that scarcity is
the way to move, when really it's abundance. Because if
you get a position I want, that doesn't mean I failed.
Actually means you want, which means hopefully you opened the
door that allows more women to come behind you. I
think for us is understanding that, to be quiet, honest,
competition isn't real. You know, even if you are in
(44:07):
a hundred meter dash, the person who wins is the
person who runs the fastest race. When you win and
you're facing twenty people and you end up getting ten seconds,
maybe that type seconds might not actually be the one
that wins the race. You might do another race and
(44:27):
you ran fixteen seconds in that one. It doesn't matter
what other people are doing. If your best is what
showed up. Your best was enough, whether or not you
came in first place by product. So I'm always thinking
if even if I am up for a keynote with
another woman and they're choosing somebody else, all I know
is my job in that moment is to put my
(44:48):
best foot forward. But if they're best foot forward, actually
best mind, congrats you won that. It doesn't mean there's
fewer jobs for me. It doesn't mean it takes me
out of the game completely. It doesn't mean I'm not
a great speaker. It just means that person's best in
that instance beat mine. Doesn't mean mind sucked. And it's
(45:09):
a constant affirmation. And I think just thinking through the
fact that the thing, the machine that has been put
in place that has told us there's only one job,
thirty people are vying for it, and if you don't
get the one job, your life is ruined. Break the machine.
We gotta start breaking the machine. Like, I'm totally not
interested in participating in those types of games where it's
(45:31):
like one and everybody else is not good. No, no,
not interested, not interested at all. So yeah, me and
my friends. Again, I have a lot of friends who
in the same industry as me, who are probably up
for some of the same keynote speaking gigs, and I'm
just like where it gets it gets it whoever it gets,
and then the next one might be mine, or maybe
(45:52):
I get in and I say, huh, who's your close
and keynote you know who I know who's amazing her?
And then now he gets go to the same conference
everybody went. So we just have to start insisting on
using our power in these moments when people wanted to
be in competition twisted on his head. My whole thing is,
if I can't even do something, for example, I'll pass
(46:13):
it on to another woman who I know, Hey, I
know I can't do it, but she can. She's amazing
at that. And oftentimes they'll say yes. So we got
to use our power for each other, not against it
and shred the machine. Your how old, lovely? I am
thirty six? How do you get to be so wise
at such a young age. I observe and I absorb,
(46:38):
and I am a forever student. Um. I have been
pretty much an old soul since I was young. My
mom tells me that all the time. Anybody who knows
me when I was little tells me that all the time. Um.
But I think I just continue to absorb the good
in the world so the bad does not take over
my psyche. I'm constantly like, what can I learn? How
(47:02):
can I serve? And how can I honor myself if
I'm honoring everybody else around me? So yeah, Forever student,
Well love e Agii Jones. You're so fun to talk
to you. I feel very inspired just having this conversation,
not to mention you have the most beautiful smile. Your
new book is Professional Troublemaker the Fear Fighter Manual. I
(47:26):
think there's really valuable life lessons for everyone in this book. Women, men, anybody, Katie,
thank you. That is an honor. Next Question with Katie
Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie
(47:47):
Kurk Media. The executive producers Army, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz.
The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements,
Adriana Fassio, and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and
mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call,
(48:08):
go to Katie Correct dot com. You can also find
me at Katie Correct on Instagram and all my social
media channels. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio visit
the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Katie Couric
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!