Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Current and this is next question.
On today's episode, women are in crisis, and I think
we realize that no one is coming to save us.
Reshma Sujani on the state of women's progress and the
impact the pandemic has had on our careers, mental health,
(00:20):
and lives. After decades of advancement in the workplace, more
women dropped out of the labor force over the past
two years than ever before. But that's why the former
Girls Who Code CEO says there's no time like the
present for systemic change. We were told that if we
leaned in hard enough, if we girl bossed our way,
(00:43):
there was an express train to the top. We have
just set women up to fail. And so if you
believe like never ways to go to crisis, like there's
never then been a moment for us to redesign the workplace,
then there is right now. And Rushma has a plan,
which she lays out in her new book called Pay Up.
The Future of Women and Work and Why It's different
(01:05):
than you think. We'll get to all of that and
more in this conversation, but first let's talk about you, Rushma,
because I learned some things about you that I didn't
quite realize. Tell us about your parents and about your
journey as a kid and going to law school. Just
give me the Rushma story and for five seconds, Okay,
(01:29):
let me make it quick. My parents came here as refugees.
They were two of a thousand engineers who got to
come here because they were kicked out by Idi aman Um.
My father worked as a machinist and a plant My
mother sold cosmetics, and I my dad would read to
me about these incredible people like Dr King and Mahama Gandhi,
and so from the time I was little, I wanted
(01:51):
to change the world, like as sappy as it sounds, Katie,
like I wanted to give back to this country that
saved my parents life. I graduated three, was knowledge to
loan bet did what every good Indian girl thinks she
should do, was listen to my parents and got that
safe job, you know, so I could get married and
have that middle class life. And I was miserable the
(02:11):
whole way because I just always wanted to run for
office and be a public servant. I decided to try
that and I ran for Congress. I basically did what
AOC did except ten years earlier. And she lost. I
mean I should say I lost, she won, um, But
it was the best experience of my life because I
(02:31):
failed for the very first time. And when you run
for office like you can't I that like everybody knows
when you lost, and I was broke, I was humiliated.
I had piste off everybody in the democratic establishment. But
I was free and that feeling of being like wow,
like what are the other things I told myself I
couldn't do, and let me go do them and let
(02:53):
me fail at them too, and it just it started
this life of just brave, not perfect, I say, starting
girls who code when I didn't code, and I didn't
bother to learn, you know, building a movement to teach,
you know, to talk about moms and say they should
get paid. Though I'm not an economist, and so I
think it's just like it freed me to say what
I want to say, not care what other people think,
(03:15):
and to be a warrior. Was that scary though, rush my,
I mean you you say it like no big whoop.
I failed and I was okay with it and it
was liberating at the same time. It must have been
as you said, it's humiliating to fail, especially on a
public stage and I something I can relate to. It
(03:37):
was scary well also because I was, you know, as
the first South Asian woman to run for office. You know,
my parents had taught me to like not call attention
to yourself, right not, you know, like basically drawn the lines.
And here I was going out there. I had no
idea what I was doing. You know, I didn't have
friends and fancy places. I didn't know how to hire
a campaign manager. I'd never asked anybody for a check before,
(03:59):
and so all of it was like the first time.
I remember even going into senior centers and like having
to pronounce my name and you know, and just knowing
what to say. And I didn't know what I was doing.
And I remember my first you were gonna appreciate this,
My first television interview ever was with Chris Matthews and
he was so mean to me. I didn't even know
(04:19):
like where to look in the screen. I was looking
in the wrong place. I mean, it was right, it
was about it. I'm still still I cannot watch that interview.
Uh so it was it was high stakes, high fear,
but high excitement. And I think when you do something
like that at age thirty, three, and you're kind of like, well, okay,
(04:42):
I can do anything. And even the public failure was
so interesting because I mean, I'm not it hurt, I cried.
I you drank Margarita's for like a month, being like
what happened? What happened? What happened when I do wrong?
And then I moved on And and that was the
their lesson about failure. Like you, I'm sure you can
appreciate this, right. You can't keep thinking about it and
(05:04):
reliving it. You gotta let it go. And I learned
that lesson. You know, at a young age. Girls Who
Code was a phenomenal success that you launched. And you
just said I didn't know how to code. I hadn't
you know, I didn't really you weren't familiar with the
tech world. Just take us back to why you wanted
(05:26):
to create Girls Who Code. Well, when I was running
for office, I would go into New York City schools
and I would go into computer science classes and I
would see like lines and lines of boys trying to
be the next step jobs or Mark Zuckerberg. And I
was like Gates for Bill Gates, and like, you know,
I knew that the valley was a boys club, But
(05:46):
I didn't know that that club started in high school.
And then I started learning about like what you make
as a software programmer A hundred and twenty thousand dollars
what like, and as as I've had a job since
I was twelve, like basking Robbins, walking dogs, like retail,
and so the idea that you could make that much
money and maybe even like make a difference, I was like,
(06:09):
why does every girl I know, like, you know, we
know about this? And so I made it my mission
to kind of make that happen. So I really approached
the problem from an equity perspective and from a perspective
of also like, wow, what if if girls had this
arsenal of being able to code, Like what are the
problems that they could solve? Cancer, climate, COVID everything? And
(06:29):
that's what got me excited about it. And here's the
other thing, you know, Katie, I wasn't a coder, so
I didn't know any better. I wasn't in those computer
science classes with those microaggressions. I didn't go to a
Google interview and people get asked, you know what am
I doing afterwards? Like I didn't face the sexism and
the discrimination you know, and all of the barriers. So
(06:50):
I went at it like let's go do this, Like
let's go build this massive pipeline and like infiltrate every
single tech company. And it was a little bit of
that nativity right that I think enabled me to build
this massive movement when we come back. Why we can't
just girl boss our way to the top? Reschma's action
plan right after this, let's talk about pay up your
(07:25):
new book and this call for action. You believe there's
no time like the present to rethink policies, attitudes, behaviors, etcetera, etcetera.
Why Because I don't think it's ever been a worse
time to be a woman, you know, from reproductive rights
to you know, our job losses, to our mental health.
(07:46):
Like we women are in crisis, and I think we
realized that no one is coming to save us. You know,
at the start of the endemic, almost twelve million women
were pushed out of the labor force, and when the
job's report came out, men had joined the labor market
at twenty seven times the rate of women. You know,
one in three women are now thinking about changing their jobs.
(08:09):
You know, of women say that their mental health has
actually declined like, we are not okay, and this isn't
just a pandemic story. We've always been juggling too much.
And so if you believe like never wats to go
a crisis, like there's never then been a moment for
us to redesign the workplace, then there is right now.
(08:29):
Tell me about the twelve million because I keep hearing
three point five million women have left the workforce. Can
you help me understand the difference and those numbers. So
at the beginning of the pandemic, you know, from March
of you saw almost twelve million women leave, and then
women would come back and then you know, basically I
(08:51):
would say a couple of you know, at the beginning
of the fall, we were still missing three million women,
and I think the latest numbers say we're missing one
point one million. But here's the thing, Katie. The women
that have not come back our moms. So a lot
of childless women are re entering, but parents are not.
(09:12):
And so part of what you know, I was just
talking to um the Secretary of Commerces team right now
and this I was saying, I'm like, we need a
women's jobs are because there's so many numbers being thrown about,
But we need to exactly understand who's re entering and
if they're not re entering, what do they need? Is
it because of childcare? Is it because their job has
(09:34):
been automated, you know? Is it because their schools are
shut down or their kids are in crisis? Are they
down shifting? You know? But the the interesting thing is
is we know that more women are leaving, you know,
even in the great more women are quitting, and we
know some of the reasons why they're quitting. And you
then the thing that keeps coming up is childcare. And
(09:55):
you say, this problem predates the pandemics. So what is
the root of it? Why does it suck to be
a working mom in America? Well? I think part of
it is because we've been sold what I call the
big Lie. You know, we were we were told that
if we leaned in hard enough, if we girl bossed
our way, you know, there was an express train to
(10:16):
the top. And you understand this as a mother, we
have never been able to balance being the type of
mom we wanted to be with the type of worker
that we are expected to be. And so we have
just set women up to fail. And if you even
look at historically, you know, from Rosie the riverter right
to the Girl Boss today, it's like we were always
(10:37):
expected to hide our motherhood and to do it all,
and to you know, basically have it all was just
a euphanism for doing it all. And so I think
we need to expose the big lie and again redesign
workplaces so they actually are, you know, essentially are the
reality of how we live and work as moms. The
(10:59):
US has the artist drop and marital happiness after kids
and the world. Can you unpack that for us? Rushima,
and you talk very honestly about your own situation and
the frustrations you experienced. Steven, though you have a really
good marriage. Yeah, I mean I was dying to have kids.
(11:19):
I had more rounds of I v F than I
could actually count. All I wanted to be was a mom.
And again I think because I bought into the big line,
I didn't realize how hard it was going to be
being a mom and running girls who code. And I
think part of what what drove my husband and I
into couples counseling was, you know, I took all my
(11:41):
paid leave off and he didn't. And so those first
couple of months while I'm breastfeeding, I was the one
doing the laundry and doing the shopping and figuring out
whether the diaper bad was packed. Like my to do
list got bigger in his got smaller, and we did
become that household where I was doing eight six percent
of the domestic labor, all the while maintaining my big job.
(12:04):
And he had hits and so, and I didn't understand
it because I thought that, like everywhere I looked on
Instagram or social media, it seemed like you could have right,
these perfectly equitable marriages, And so why was it mine?
What was wrong with me? What had I not trained
my partner, you know, good enough? And then COVID made
(12:26):
it worse because I think what a lot of us
told ourselves, Well, they just don't know how much we do.
But now they saw us in between running the largest
women and girls organization in the world, doing the laundry,
doing the dishes, doing the homeschooling. Right, it wasn't that
they didn't know, but that it didn't matter because part
(12:47):
of the problem had always been that that work, that
domestic work, has never been valued, and so it hasn't
been prioritized for them. So they didn't do it. In fact,
Melinda Gates rights that him and do an average of
seven more years of work if you account for everything
they're doing inside the home in terms of taking care
(13:10):
of things that you just mentioned in terms of raising kids.
I mean, couldn't you just have a heart to heart
with your husband and say, listen, honey, this is not
working for me. And if you don't start, you know,
pulling your weight, this isn't happening. That's what I would
have done. Well, I think that's I think I did,
and I think we have. I mean, look, look, I'm
(13:32):
outing him in a book, right, So it's like, you know,
he's definitely his to do list past gotten bigger. But
the point is still, Katie, right, why is that our
that becomes our problem to fix? I got another job
and I gotta fix my partner. And part of what
in writing this book, you know, what I'm excited to
talk about, is that it is not just a personal problem.
(13:53):
Society has set it up that way for men not
to do the character taking. Think about the paid leave,
and we're gonna talk about solutions later. But so many companies,
including Apple, still don't have gender neutral pay lead policies.
So they corporations, companies are not setting up relationships to
start and have a fighting chance at gender equality. You know,
(14:13):
it's not until fairly recently that even if you think
about the images you see on television and in magazines, right,
it's like we praise then you know, when they are
strolling down a baby down the streeter changing a diaper
as if it's you know, exceptional. You know, I can
I can post that, you know, I walk my son
to school, and I'm not getting five hundred likes. So
(14:34):
so again, like we just have to really shift essentially
who does the character taking, whether that work is actually valued,
and have a really honest conversation if we're going to
get to gender quality. It's not about just getting a
sponsor or a mentor or even figuring out pay equity.
It's about how do you shift the balance of work
in every single household. I mean, even the debate that
(14:57):
we're having in Congress around the child tax credit is insane,
right that, like Joe Manchin says, well, you shouldn't get
a child tax unless you're working, As if the work
that I do every single day at home it's not work.
Explain that for us, for people who may not be
following the legislation, what the tax child credit would do,
(15:20):
and why it is problematic if it's only for working moms. Yeah,
So for a long time, we we in the United States,
you know, we have been against giving a child tax
credit to parents who are not in the workforce. And
in COVID President Biden changed that and said essentially, any
parent of a certain income you know what I mean,
(15:41):
gets uh, you know, thirty a month, right, you know,
if they have a child, and it is set to expire.
And there's a big debate in Congress about whether we
should extend it. And Senator Mansion has been against extending
it because he thinks that you should only get it
if you're a parent in the workplace. And so what
(16:02):
he's saying is that you should only get it if
you are a parent that is working, and that if
you're not working, you're not entitled to a benefit. And
why this is deeply problematic is the United I means,
it's a very it's not the typical perspective that you
see in other nations like the United Kingdom for example,
or you know, the Nordic countries, where in the UK
(16:22):
you got a parental income every month if you had
a kid, and so because it is very expensive to
be a parent. But in this country, we see deciding
to be a parent as a choice. It's your personal
problem that you have to solve. Not the government, not
your employer, not even your partner is obligated to help
(16:45):
or support you. And young women are looking at that
saying not me, I don't want to do it. There
are a lot of problems that are exacerbated Reshma by
that attitude. I mean where does that Where does that
leave us as a country? Yeah? I mean one it
leaves us of I think, never getting to gender quality
(17:07):
unless we start investing in in these types of policies,
whether it's the government or whether it's you know, um
companies like let's take childcare for example. It is very
clear by the data that the that the million women
that are not entering the workforce re entering or who
have downshifted, right because we're not talking about that either, um,
(17:28):
it's because childcare is not affordable. We still have half
of our daycare centers that are shut down. I think
they say childcare costs have gone up by you know,
for you know, during the pandemic, and so you know,
if we do not solve childcare, you'll never get women
to return to the workforce in the same place that
they have been historically in the past, which means we're
(17:49):
gonna lose out in the diversity, you know, and by
extension in you know, the innovation of our country and
the long term economics success of our nation is actually
going in to suffer. And so right now in government,
you know, President Biden have proposed that we have a
seven percent ceiling on the amount that you'll spend on
your childcare. You know, that bill is not being passed
(18:11):
in Congress right now, and so you have rising childcare costs,
no intervention by the government. And so one of the
things I argue in the book is that we've got
to start asking companies to start subsidizing childcare. You know,
right now less than companies subsidized childcare. But as we're
having a race to the bottom in terms of salaries
and we're in the middle of the talent war, one
(18:33):
of the things I think that companies should be considering
is starting to pay for childcare as a way to
retain and attract talent. Don't you think on the one hand,
the pandemic made things terrible. On the other we have
some additional forces that seem to be encouraging people to
make a change. We have work at home policies. It
(18:56):
seems like employers are having to be more flexible. As
you said, there's a worker shortage. Aren't all these things
going to push companies in the right direction? Reschma. I
mean it's interesting, like my books coming out at the
two year anniversary of the pandemic, and I have not
seen as many policy changes from companies as I would like.
(19:21):
You know, they're still offering like free museum tickets and
egg freezing, but they're not paying for my childcare. They're
not incentivizing men to take pay leave and tying it
to their compensation. There's still resisting flexibility and remote working.
So I do think that while one would think, right
if you were a CEO today, I mean certainly as
(19:42):
a CEO right, that this is the time to start
maybe redesigning and rethinking about how we've traditionally done things.
I think the knee jerk reaction is to go back
to where it was before, and part of that is
because I think that the folks who need the most
amount of redesign are working moms, and we are the
(20:04):
most tired you're having, uh you know, constituency group that
is exhausted, higher race of mental anxiety and depression, you know,
and and and at the same time, we're the ones
who need the change. And so this is also why,
which is very fascinating, Katie, that the that women are
quitting it at a much higher rates than men. So
(20:26):
I'd rather quit my job and say, hey, know what,
I need flexibility, you know what I mean, I need
support here or there, because we're so used to this
being told to us is our personal problem, that you
don't get to ask for support. That we're still breastfeeding
in closets, you know what I mean, and hiding pictures
of our kids and lying about going to our kids
soccer game or doctor's appointments because we're supposed to hide
(20:48):
our mother and we're not crazy for doing that. That
is what we have been taught that the way to succeed,
the way to get the corner office is to basically
pretend you not a mom. Are any company is doing
it right, doing it well. That can be held up
as a model for others to say, hey, you know,
you're not going to sacrifice productivity or the bottom line.
(21:11):
In fact, you may increase it if you're more accommodating
to working moms. And you know, ps, I think you're
not going to get gender equality if they're not more
accommodating to working dads. Yes, there are. You know, Walmart
had introduced something, uh, basically for salary workers. A lot
(21:33):
of salary workers want flexibility, but if you're an hourly worker,
what you want is predictability. You work in retail, Walmart,
you got the seven pm shift, you arrange for childcare,
You show up for your seven pm shift, and guess what,
It's been canceled. Now you're out money. So what Walmart
had done is basically designed an app that allows employees
essentially switch shifts with one another and so that they
(21:54):
can get more predictability over their schedule. Simple. Everybody should
be doing this. Petigo only has always been doing incredible
things in terms of their paid leave benefits. You know
a handful of companies like Google, like Disney, you know,
have offered on site care. So I do think that
there are companies. You know, Google just announced that they've
increased the amount of paid leave in sick days that
(22:17):
they're offering for their you know, employees, and so I
think that there are companies that have been innovative and
have been pushing this issue, but we definitely definitely need more.
What I worry about is we don't want it to
be a band aid fixed for the pandemic. So I'm
gonna offer you know, I'm gonna pay for your child
care now. I'm gonna give your predictability and flexibility now.
But when things go back to normal, we go back
(22:40):
to normal. And so I think what we want to
do is really connect the economic cost of not actually
changing these structures, you know, for companies, in terms of attrition,
in terms of innovation, in terms of diversity, so that
we get wholesale changes you know that we embed into
our workplaces forever. Have you seen evidence that some companies
(23:03):
are seeing this as a band aid and a temporary fix. Yeah,
I mean you're seeing You're there are a bunch of
articles that came out, you know, a month ago about
how companies have started pulling their paid leave policies, you know,
like Amazon, And I definitely think that when I talked
to CEOs here in New York City, everybody is jonesing
for people to get back into the office. It's just
it's it's the way things have been, you know, listen.
(23:25):
I just think that we think that. One of the
other fascinating things in writing pay Up that I really
learned was that we've been trying to solve the pay
gap forever, and the pay gap really exists between moms
and dads. There is essentially no pay gap between childless
women and childless men, because when we think about a
mom and she enters the workforce, we think that she's
(23:46):
not as focused, she's not as committed, that she's distracted,
and we dock her and pay or in opportunities because
of that. I do think the negligence, you know, one
of the not silver linings of the pandemic is everyone's
seen everything you've seen that I do have kids, that
they do interrupt me how I do operate in my house,
(24:06):
and you've made more judgments about my commitment, my dedication
to my job. And so I think that women are
being more penalized, you know what I mean, for their
caretaking than they were pre COVID because we were hiding
it before then. And so I do think the cultural
shift of like you know, like you would think right
(24:27):
that we all would have gotten a memo being like,
what do you need? I see that schools are closed,
you know what I mean. And all the data has
been out there, there's an article written every one minute
about this. But none of us got that memo. There
has not been this declaration of companies who are saying
we stand up for moms. We're going to bail out
mops and we're gonna ask them what they need, and
(24:48):
we're going to redesign our workplaces, you know. And so
we have got to demand that. And so one of
the things I'm trying to do with pay Up is
ignite this, you know, this workplace organizing in to say
to mom's you, it doesn't have to be this way.
You deserve these things. These are the tools for you
to ask for these things and and start raising that
(25:10):
consciousness level. Right. Um. But it goes very much against
everything that kind of feminism and these workplace books have
basically to including myself, you know, I've been preaching the
gospel of you know, corporate feminism absolutely. I mean, Katie,
I remember like when I'd be speaking at a conference
(25:30):
and a young woman would raise her hand she said,
Mr Johnny, you know, but how do you balance, you know,
your family and your job. I would literally waive her away.
I'm I'm embarrassed that I actually acted and and made
her feel like it was not something she should be
concerned about. And so when she became a mom and
(25:52):
she struggled with that balance, she thought, gosh, there's something
wrong with me, and there was nothing ever wrong with you.
This system was always stabbed against you. What should you
have said to that young woman. I should have said
to the young woman, one give yourself grace to how
do you ask your employer and your partner and our government,
(26:15):
you know, and for what you need and for what
you deserve, and that that the system is staffed against you,
and that instead of like spending all that time trying
to just you know, lean in and you know, climb
your way to the to the corner office, figure out
how you can basically be both pieces of yourself in
a way that is healthy. We'll be right back. You
(26:50):
talk about corporations, but tell us the status of the
Martial Plan for Moms and just review what's in it.
Although we've talked a lot about the events of it already. Yeah,
you know, when we we when we launched from really
focused on making sure Build Back Better passes, and the
components of Build Back Better had the things that my
(27:10):
pt mom said that they needed to return back to
work better, you know, which was affordable childcare, paid leave,
opening up schools safely, you know, reach training for women
who have been automated out of the workforce, and getting
rid of the motherhood penalty. And so listen, this has
been a tough year for us as activists in terms
(27:31):
of the fact that it is so you know, it
couldn't get any worse for moms and for women, and
we still couldn't pass that bill. Wow, what does that
really say about what you think about us? And so
I think we've had to turn and say, but we
can't leave moms out there like that with no support.
So what's the other way that we can get them changed?
(27:52):
And so we're really focused now on the private sector
and figuring out whether the private sector can step in
and off for you know what I mean, the support
levers that that moms and working women need right now.
So one, you know, we're building a campaign to push
companies to start subsidizing childcare, and we're doing the math
that the cost of attrition is actually gonna higher then
(28:16):
if you started paying for childcare. You know, one of
the impediments to subsidize in childcare has always been real estate.
Well there's plenty of open real estate now because you know,
we're never gonna go back to five days of work
a week, right probably, so this may be an opportunity
right to start building you know what I mean in
you know, in office care, you know, for working parents,
(28:38):
and we need to start exploring that, you know, in
second or other lovers, like providing cash, you know, backup
care again, all the different ways that we can actually
start taking on that piece of childcare. You know. The
second thing is it's not enough to talk about paid
leave without basically starting trying to push companies, to push
(29:00):
men to take it to at the same levels as us.
How do you make that happen? Well, one basic thing
is you should have gender neutral paid leave policies. There's
no reason why any company should be offering tweeks to
women in four weeks to two. Dad's no no reason,
you know. And secondly, even more so, I think we
(29:21):
should be tying performance or compensation to whether you do
take leave. You know, you don't. Companies shouldn't get to tout, oh,
we offered paid leave. Well, and I want to know
who's taking it. Who do you offer it to? Who
takes it? What's your culture? Do you gaslight men when
they do, because all the data shows that like men,
(29:41):
you know, less diabetes less heart attacks, live longer when
they spend time and care for their kids. They want
to do it, but they're penalized, but they're penalized when
they do. And I'm sure you've seen this right. You know,
you've admitted to having an anti mom bias at points
in your career. And I have to say, I remember
(30:03):
somebody taking paternity leave when I was working at Yahoo
and thinking, what you know? So it's one thing to
to want to support these policies, but when push comes
to shove and like somebody you need at work is
gone for twelve weeks, you're like, shit, really, I'm not
(30:26):
digging this. Yeah, I listen the same thing for me.
I mean at Girls and Crowd, like almost of my
employees were women, and somebody was pregnant all the time,
somebody was out all the time, and there were moments
I'm like, why have I offered this generous? You know,
and I'm a nonprofit but I think the thing is
(30:47):
is like it is the right thing to do for society.
And I will say every time we did, we inspired loyalty.
We had low rates of attrition, and people people stayed
with you because you helped them during a to off
time in their lives, and it mattered. And so I
think the benefits essentially outweigh the costs um and so
(31:08):
I think we just have to keep reminding ourselves. I
also just think that, like, you know, it's interesting. I
think Norway is a good test example for this is
that when they started putting policies like this into place
where essentially you would have to take it or lose
it or tying it to compensation, you know, they went
from like a small percentage of men taking it to
the overwhelming amount of men taking it, and the entire
(31:29):
culture of caretaking changed dramatically. You know, I have two boys,
and I I want I have to make a conscious
effort every day, every day to get them to be caretakers.
One of the reasons why we have a shortage of
nurses and teachers is because we don't have any men
going into those professions, you know, and those professions, especially
(31:49):
in home care, are the future. So like men rather
go on unemployment than work in those jobs. What is
that saying about our society? What we have taught men?
And so that has got to shift. And you know,
and finally, the thing I've think been thinking again we've
talked about the book is mental health. You know, I know,
(32:10):
I've had a lot of friends who have gone, you know,
into rehab, you know who addiction issues have popped back up,
you know, during the past couple of years that are
just really really struggling. You know, they're losing their temper,
losing their patients, are just not sleeping, exhausted, just all
of it. Are the worst kind of health state that
(32:31):
they've ever been. And now we're saying we'll come back
to work and doors are open, and women are coming
back not fully there because at the same time we're
having to manage what's happening with our kids. I mean
my two children. You know, my two year old, you know, uh,
I can't talk and I have a someone, a speech
(32:52):
therapist come he's too and I had to take him.
He is like zero percent weight. So, like all of
this pandemic related, My seven year old has anxiety and
eats his clothes. You know, and and so I my
mind is always focused on and them and how am
I helping them? How am I healing them? And then
(33:15):
I know we're about me. And so I think so
many of us as parents are in this state of mind.
And I do think that companies to acknowledge that there's
that I I I bear that burden of my kid's
mental health a little bit more than my husband does.
And not because it is he doesn't love and care
(33:35):
them and all that, but but there it weighs on me,
and I think it weighs on mom. And this goes
back to like we're not gonna stop being who we
are and moms and are worrying or are carrying or
are obsessing, right like, it's who we are. And I
think that that's going back to companies. I feel like
they have to accept us for who we are and
recognize and provide us the support in this moment, you know,
(33:55):
so we don't have to downshift our careers and we
don't have to choose between our job and our it.
What about government solutions? Have you given up on that now?
And you can't. We can't give up on that, right
because even if the Priva Center starts offering some of
these solutions, it won't reach everyone, and we've got to
reach everyone. It's not right if the corner office personal
(34:19):
works in Walmart, you know what I mean, gets paid
le even affordable childcare, but the person working in this
tour doesn't. And we don't want to create a society
where depending upon you know, how much money you make
or the color of your skin, you know, determines whether
you can or cannot have a child or thrive, you know,
in your mental health. And so we need government to act.
I think though, that moms we need to organize too.
(34:43):
You know, if you think about every major mother's movement
that's out there, it's always moms organizing for their kids,
drunk driving, guns, you know what I mean, climate, you
name it. But moms have to start organizing for moms.
And maybe it was too much to ask right for
us to do that this year, but we start have
(35:04):
to start. And I think workplaces is where moms are
focused because that is so deeply connected to their everyday
life as mothers. Am I going to get time on
flexibility so I can take my kids to their therapy
appointment at three o'clock? Right? Am I going to be
able to spend some time with their kids doing their
homework because they need my attention right now, or is
my office going to tell me that I need to
be there from nine to six and that's it, right
(35:24):
And so this workplace activism and organizing is really critical
to moms right now, and we're going to teach them
how to do it and what can be done right
now by moms and bosses while we wait for the
government to hopefully give more support. And when you say
the government is needed, so some people don't have these
advantages and others don't, are you suggesting the government needs
(35:47):
to mandate these things? I think part of it is
the government can provide benefits. Let's just say you are
a digital you know you're in the digital economy, right
or the gig economy. You don't work for one of
these big companies, you know, you may not get the
benefit of paid leave, and your benefit may come from
a federal benefit. So there are gonna be people who
are left out by just private sector solutions. And that's
(36:09):
what I'm talking about, and that's why it's important for
the government, you know, to play a role also for
us when we think about so and This didn't happen
with paid leave in the way that I think we
would all have wanted it to, which is, when you
know Google is offering paid leave, who are they offering
it to? Should they be making me sure that every
single one of their suppliers and customers, you know what
(36:29):
I mean, get access to it as well? How are
we making sure of that companies that have hourly employees
and salaried employees offer the exact same benefits to both.
And I think in this moment that's what we have
to actually demand, And I think the government can actually
help put the pressure on the companies to make sure
that when they're providing those benefits, they're providing them to
(36:50):
all of them, almost like an osha if you will,
but for employment. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense.
I think we have to. Like, the data has always
been clear that that childcare in particular, like is very
similar to health care. If you start providing early education
(37:11):
to children, they live longer, right, they're healthier, it's less
of a cost and attacks on society. So the data
and the evidence that companies should be investing in this
is there, and uh, and so now it's time for
them to actually start acting on it. And I think
if we didn't have this pandemic and then we didn't
have the great resignation of the Great quit, companies could
(37:32):
have been like, let the government deal with it. But now,
I mean, you have Amazon increasing base salaries from a
hundred and fifty to three hundred thousand dollars. Now, if
those same workers leave within six or seven months, which
is what the rate is now of how long people
stay at companies, you're out money. But if you start
providing and paying for their childcare, you're more likely to
(37:56):
retain them, you know, for a year and a half
or two years, and so you're there's a savings and
so again, I think the incentives in this moment are
leaning towards you know it making a lot of business
sense right for you to like pay up right and
start offering you know, these benefits services support to what
(38:20):
will ultimately be to working moms. Because two out of
three caretakers are women, it's business as usual in terms
of what you're dealing with RUSHMA deeply entrenched attitudes that
have existed for a very long time. UH, business practices
that haven't been challenged. And so are you still optimistic
(38:42):
that things can change. Because if I were you, I
think I feel overwhelmed almost every day. Oh my god,
I I oh, I'm so fired up every day. I'm
so fired up every day because I feel like we
have a once in a lifetime opportunity. It's the way
I felt like when I start a Girl through Code
ten years ago. Like I think, if you could marry
(39:05):
the fact that businesses have to do something with the
fact that I think working women and our allies have
finally seen that like this is not working, and I
got something has to change and we're at our breaking point.
If those two things can come together, it could be
a perfect storm for that, you know, for us in
(39:27):
a good way. And that's what I'm betting on um.
And so in some ways, not passing Bill back better
was kind of like this, See they really don't give
a shit about us, right, and like that no one
is going to save you. That we have to start
demanding and asking for the things that we deserve. And
(39:50):
see that's always it's like goes back to that's always
something that we as women have had. You what I
mean to do in the first place, And I do
think I was I was a straight a student, went
to Harvard, and Neil thought if I did everything right
and had the perfect resume, that I would just get
to be a CEO. They would just pull out the
red carpet. It didn't matter, though. It didn't matter how
(40:12):
smart I was, how hard I tried, how prepared I was.
It was always stacked against me and all of us.
And when I say me, I mean us. Let's talk
about this looming uh likelihood that roe v Wade will
be overturned. Um, how does that fit into the equation
(40:33):
and and where does that put working women in general?
I mean I wrote a not bet about this that
that essentially this goes back. This is now the Priva
Center has kind of not dealt with Roe v. Wade
and reproductive rights because I think they never thought maybe
the moment would come where we would be sitting here
with a very weally quid chance that Roe v. Wade
(40:55):
is going to be overturned. And so yet again now
it's up to businesses because is to provide you know,
basically provide abortion access to their employees. I mean, I
think I wrote in the MyD like one out of
three employees will have an abortion at some point, right,
So this is like the vast majority, you know, of
their population. So they have to think about how they're
(41:17):
going to actually protect support, you know what I mean,
the right to choose. How can they do that the
rushima you know, if if, if it will be okay
for states to ban abortion and working women having to go,
you know, get the day off and travel to another state,
and many of them can't even afford abortions, right, I mean,
(41:40):
it's it's just saying the companies need to help, Like
what does that mean? And what does that they to
pay for it? Like if if I'm employed and I
live in Texas and that Texas is now you know,
outlawed abortions, You're going to have to pay for me
to get to New York City, you know what I mean,
my flight, my airfare, the cost of it, you know,
it is now your problem. And I think that this
(42:01):
is also the cost of when companies actually don't stand
up and speak out, you know, and join the fight.
I think we have to, you know, they have to
basically play a role in the play a role in
making sure that this right exists for women. It's such
a political hot potato. I have a hard time imagining
even if it should be done. Companies being like, come
(42:25):
to us if you need an abortion, We're going to
take care of it for you, and we're going to
help you. Some have salesforce. I'll tell you this. When
I wrote this article, I have. I am still getting
emails from your g's basically being like, we had a
big conversation about this, you know, at a human resources meeting,
because I think they know that it's coming, and also
millennials are asking them what are your policies on this?
(42:48):
So going back to the great resignation and who's actually
coming back into the workforce, it's childless women. It's the
very women. I mean, actually it's not true, because the
vast majority of those who have abortions are others, you know,
but it is women who who care about this right
and want to know your position and want to know
whether you are going to actually help them pay for
(43:11):
protecting that right because you're choosing to stay in a
stay in the state, and do business with the state
who has taken away my right to choose. It just
is kind of amazing that we're even discussing this. Yes,
I never thought we'd be discussing this as a real
as like a real thing. What is the solution, Reshima,
(43:31):
when all is said and done. You know, we've tackled
so many different aspects of this problem just in this conversation.
But to wrap things up, what what can we all do?
And what can moms do? What can businesses do? What
should the government do? How can we make things better? Yeah?
I mean, I think the first thing you have to
(43:52):
realize is one we've all been sold a big lie
and and that's the way that we've been thinking about
women's equality in the workplace. Um, it's just been wrong.
And I think COVID exposed that. And so there is
no express train to the corner office. You know. We
have to have the support that we need from the government,
you know, from our partners to thrive, not just in
(44:13):
our careers, but like in our lives, you know. And
we've got to have choices to re enter and exit
the workforce without penalty. You know, we have to be
able to not have to hide our motherhood and work
at a place, work in a society where we're free
from bias and where motherhood isn't viewed as a distraction
or you know, to this uh denigrated, but it's actually
(44:36):
lifted up and celebrated where our mental health is viewed
as important as our output, right, and will we have
to stop asking women to do more and start asking
institutions to pay up. And in my book I talked
about some real clear ways what we need from the
government and what we need from our employers to actually
(44:59):
get there, and what we need to do for ourselves.
I mean to protect our mental health. Um and to
stop feeling like this is our problem. We screwed up,
We've made a mistake, We're not good enough, we just
can't handle it. None of that is true. I have
to ask you also if you'd add to the list
what we need from our partners. It seems to me
(45:22):
that this should be a discussion as important as do
you want to have kids? Are you willing to share
in the responsibilities that it You know that it takes
to raise kids and to keep and to keep a home. Yeah,
that's right. And and and look if I when I
had that conversation with my husband, because again I'm Indian,
(45:44):
you know, very paternalistic culture, right like, and so I
was very clear that if I was going to marry
an any man, and I was going to do what
I wanted to do, in the world that we had
to be clear on what are like, you know, what
the ratio was right like? And I was I was
wanted him to do sixty and me to do forty.
You know, that was like my dream. But I do
think that when you actually get married and you know,
(46:07):
the things shift, and not because you didn't make the
deal or didn't have the conversation, but also you know,
I'll find and I write about this in my book.
You know, the Hall and I have a deal where
you know, he does nights and I do mornings. But
if I'm sitting around, you know, at six o'clock and
then I said, hey, can you warm up the bottle?
We just pay gives the sigh his dinner real quick.
(46:29):
And so even though we've had the conversation, so I
got to leave the house and I walk around the block,
go for a drink, maybe do my work out. Then
but I'm gone and and and so there's there's no argument,
and he's not like where are you right, It's just
like if I'm there, I'm gonna just go get it done.
So part of it is not just our partners, but
are you telling ourselves? You know, as my friend Tiffany
(46:52):
to do food says to like to drop the ball.
You know what I mean, to center ourselves to you know,
for lack of a better word, be selfish about our
own self care right in in my case, you know,
to leave the house. A lot of women, I think
pretend like they want their partners to do more, but
if their partners holding the baby, they're gonna make a
bee line to the baby and say no, I'll take
(47:15):
care of it, or you're not doing it right. I mean,
I have a lot of couples who have told me
stories along those lines. That's why I think it needs
to start early. I think you should start teaching your
seven year old how to do laundry, how to wash dishes,
how to do all these things around the house so
it won't be seen in his eyes as a woman's job.
And similarly, I applaud companies like tied and and they're
(47:40):
not sponsoring this podcast, by the way, but where they
show a stay at home dad playing with his daughter
and doing the laundry. You know, I think a lot
of our ideas of what's a man's job and what's
a woman's job really has to be upended. It's true.
I mean, my dream is to have like you Lebron
(48:00):
James and like you know, Snoop Dogg doing like you know,
doing the laundry and the dishes, and like our entire
thing about like masculinity and what it means to be
a man and to be a successful man who does
what you know, it was very funny to me and
some of these surveys that came out during the pandemic
about homeschooling that you know, women would be like, I'm
the one who's doing the homeschooling and then would be like, no, no, no,
(48:22):
I'm the one who's doing it. But there's this real
kind of perception amongst men that they are doing this work.
You know, they are doing and you know, for us
every time and you survey that's done across the world, it's,
you know, pretty like we're doing eight six of that
unpaid labor over and over and over again. I don't
(48:43):
have time for midlife crisis. I mean yeah, but I
mean it's funny. It's like you you see the reports
of men during the pandemic, like I've learned how to
play the guitar. I've never read more in my life.
You know. It's whereas we are mental health is in
the toilet. How can that be when the same surveys
when you ask men and women that they're doing the
(49:04):
exact same thing. So that's the and part of the
whole conversation with your partner. It's hard to like, you know,
like you can talk about it, but like you might
as well saw where he still thinks he does fifty. Well,
you've given a lot of people a lot of food
for thought, and I really admire the energy and passion
(49:25):
that you've used to to really immerse yourself into this issue.
Do you feel like you have a lot of other
people who are joining forces with you? Rushma? Do you
feel alone in this battle? And something not at all?
I feel like I have this massive like Mom's community
on LinkedIn right of just like like you know, like
(49:45):
people who are were talking about this and seeing it
and feeling seen. And I think that that's really important.
I was, you know, I think that there are a
lot of leaders out there, you know, both in government
and in the private sector who are passionate about this issue.
You know, we've been obviously raising money because we're nonprofit.
I mean, my first ten big checks were men, you know,
some of them who had single moms. So I think
(50:08):
people really get the issue. I think the thing is
is that the approach that we're taking at it is fresh,
and you know, it's new and it's not been done before.
And I think so we're trying to figure out, like
what's the right model? How do you approach this? How
do you do this? I too, and we talked about
this when we first started, when you first talked to
me about the Marshall Plan, right when we launched it,
(50:29):
which is like, you know this, you know, can the
private sector actually really change? You know? Are they Are
they able to? And and here I am again talking
about private sector solutions and feeling like they can change.
But there's I wouldn't feel that way if it we
weren't in this moment, this exact moment again to your
anniversary of COVID, Looking at the job numbers, looking at
(50:52):
the mental health, looking at the talent wars, looking at
the great resident all of it has led to a
perfect storm where I think there's an opportunity for real change.
But yeah, I need Mary Bara, I need Vice President Harris,
you know what I mean. I need Melina de Gates.
She's supporting her work. So we got her right, But
we need women, philanthropists, women in business, women's CEOs, and
(51:12):
just all of us moms and working women in our
allies to stand up and say, all right, let's go like,
let's let's change and redesign work for places. Let's finish
this fight once and for all. How have you changed
your workplace and the face of this because I'm thinking, gosh,
I started a media company with my husband. Are we
(51:35):
doing enough to support working moms and working dads for
that matter. I mean, listen, I if you had asked
me two and a half years ago whether this is
what I'd be doing, I would have been like, no way, Katie.
I wasn't focused on this issue. Even writing Payoff, I
learned so much and I feel like I'm a well
read educated woman that I just didn't know how many
(51:56):
close misses, you know, how many, how many wrong turns,
how m much of this had not been focused on
in the way that we needed to in the feminist movement.
I do think that there are a lot of c
e o s, even females CEOs, who are not focused
on this issue or have not been focused on this
issue before. You know that need to be. I want
people to read this book to help them re examine
(52:18):
the way they have approached leadership, you know, as met as,
as managers or as CEOs or as employees and then
to say, Okay, what's the opportunity to do something different?
So instead of doing a talk about, you know, how
to get a mentor how to get a sponsor, let's
just talk about how to create gender equality in your home.
You know, like we need to have very different conversations
(52:42):
than we've been having in the past. Reshmashni, the book
is pay Up. And um, I'm I'm exhausted just listening
to you. H But if if moms need an advocate,
you are the perfect one. So thank you for all
your hard work and thanks for for talking to us today.
(53:04):
It's always great to see you, rush my mom. I'm
always full of pride after I talked to you and
and just so impressed. So thank you, Thank you, Katie,
and thank you for everything that you did to elevate
the voices of so many of us that are fighting.
You are the original energizer Bunny. Just so you know
we learned from you. Next Question with Katie Kurik is
(53:29):
a production of My Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media.
The executive producers are Me, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz.
The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements
and Adrianna Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by
Derrek Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to
sign up for my morning newsletter, Wake Up Paul, go
(53:51):
to Katie Currek dot com. You can also find me
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