Senator John Fetterman’s Long Road Back

Since his stroke in 2022, Senator John Fetterman has been battling—battling clinical depression, his own party, frustrated constituents, and even the political culture itself. At 6’8” and clad in his trademark hoodies, Fetterman has never fit the conventional congressional mold. But where does that leave him now, as he continues to defy expectations and confound both allies and critics?

From the government shutdown to Israel to immigration, Katie and Senator Fetterman cover a lot of ground. But at the heart of this urgent conversation, and of his new memoir Unfettered, is Fetterman’s harrowing struggle with depression and suicidal ideation—and his personal mission to remind people that the world is always better with them in it.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Time is the greatest gift we can give and receive.
As we turn the clocks back this fall, Bristol Meyers
Squib is recognizing oncologists who help give patients something extraordinary,
more time. The Time Back Campaign celebrates those everyday heroes
who are working tirelessly in the pursuit of potentially helping

(00:21):
get patients more time to experience key moments like seeing
a child learned to ride a bike or a long
awaited vacation. As we turn back our clocks, let's pause
to thank the doctors who make a difference every day.
Discover more about the Time Back Campaign and join Bristol
Myers Squib and celebrating the physicians who give the gift

(00:44):
of more time at BMS dot com slash time back.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
I understand there's some people that represent very, very blue states.
They have the luxury of just saying we're all gas,
no breaks. But when I represent a place like Pennsylvania,
it keeps you honest and now there's another side and
trying to find a way forward. And then let's talk
at numbers. In Pennsylvania. We had two million, two million

(01:14):
people on Snap and around four hundred thousand Pennsylvanians receive
those text credits, and now, right now, keeping our government
shut down, they're getting neither.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
My guest today, Senator John Fetterman, has never exactly fit
the mold of a US senator. He's six foot eight,
and he favors hoodies and Jim Schortz over Brooks Brothers suits.
In his new book called Unfettered, Senator Fetterman opens up
about his twenty twenty two stroke, his battle with depression,
and his remarkable recovery. But since there's no such thing

(01:49):
as a slow news day, we also talked about the
end of the government shutdown, a resolution he helped facilitate
and one that has elicited a lot of anger from
his constituents. Meanwhile, what were his impressions when he met
with Donald Trump at the White House? Does he regret
his unapologetic support of Israel? How does he feel about

(02:09):
the ice raids happening all over the country. These are
some of the topics we covered, but some of the
most intimate and emotional parts of our conversation focused on
his struggle with depression and his desire to stop anyone
facing a similar struggle from making a choice that they
can't recover from. Here's my conversation with Senator John Fetterman.

(02:34):
Thanks so much for including me in your media tour.
I really appreciate it. Here's your books.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, I recognize that unfortunate face, but it's thank you
for having me on.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
Yeah, of course, of course.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Well I was going to start with sort of breaking
news and then get to the bull.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Sure, definitely. Yeah, I mean I know that's been the
big story for Yeah, of course, of course.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Senator Fetterman, I know you were among the senators who
broke ranks with Democrats to advance the GOP plan to
end the shutdown. Now that isn't a surprise given how
staunchly you oppose all government shutdowns and I quote I
will never, ever, ever, ever, ever vote to shut our
government down, which sounds like a riff of a Taylor

(03:20):
Swift song, by the way, So why are you so
opposed in general, Senator, to government shutdowns under any circumstance.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
Well, I mean, if you have to bring Taylor Swift
into it, now, I have to flex that we were
born at the same hospital, So maybe that's part of
channeling that. Okay, And now, remember the last time the
government was shut down. That was the Republicans, and we
were rightly, very very critical of them because that's effectively

(03:52):
holding our government hostage. And now when we arrived and
decided to do that, you know, I just voted to say,
I think that's wrong. You know, we can absolutely want
to extend our text credits, but to put forty two
million Americans at food insecurity and not pay our military
and not pay all of the unions attached by all

(04:14):
of this thing, and remind people too, a lot of
you are going to be flying and making flying less safe.
That is absolutely the wrong approach to fight for health insurance.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, I know that that must have been weighing on
the minds of the eight Democrats who wanted to come
to some conclusion. How much did the upcoming Thanksgiving holidays
way into this?

Speaker 2 (04:42):
The majority of Democrats were like, what's the exit ramp?
You know, like, do we want forty two million Americans
not even have their food for Thanksgiving or to be
able to travel in our nation? And now, in just
the mice in Philadelphia, eighteen out of twenty two air

(05:03):
traffic controllers didn't show up to work. You know, we
all have an investment making our flying safe. And you
can want health insurance as I do. But that means
that you can't tax and create that kinds of chaos
and that vital part of our economy, but also on
a very big part of public safety.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
In fact, you have said quote strongly support those tax
credits to make healthcare more affordable. But my understanding is
the deal that you agreed to only guarantees a December vote,
and even then House Speaker Mike Johnson hasn't agreed to
a House vote on the issue, making the chances of
an extension increasingly bleak. So what do you say to

(05:48):
those like Bernie Sanders who insists that this vote paves
the way for fifteen million people to be thrown off
of Medicaid and the likelihood that premiums will double, triple
or even quadruple for twenty million Americans.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Well, you know, Bernie should answer why he's okay with
putting forty two million Americans to face mass food insecurity,
or he can explain to the military why it's okay
not to pay them and the tens of millions of
American that are going to be flying and are flying.
You know, he can have his priorities, and I share

(06:25):
some of those priorities to extend those tax credits, but
we have a different we have a different tactic at
this point, and there was no guarantee regardless for this
because it's all going to come down to Trump and
he really has the ability to just change everything for things.
So this idea that there was, it's simple to achieve

(06:48):
an ironclad kind of situation that just doesn't exist. And
for me, that's a risk I refuse to take. And
for them, they have a different view.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Where do you put your positioning, Senator in terms of
getting these healthcare issues resolved in a way that will
not leave so many Americans with much higher premiums or
kicked off Medicaid? Do you think Democrats are in a
stronger or weaker position now to prevent those things from happening.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
I should say, well, well, this is part of the
truth too, that we are party. My party designed these
to expire here. I mean that was us. That wasn't
the Republican changing that or doing anything. The Republicans saying
we have to negotiate on these things. And if Republicans
want this for their constituents, and it's entirely possible they

(07:42):
do want those things, but open up the government and
we can have that conversation. So that's also being straight
on the facts. And it's like that wasn't their plan.
That's the way we designed that when we were in
the firm majority, and that was part of the COVID pandemic.
And then I felt like entirely after that election that

(08:03):
was a great opportunity to take take that win. And
now it's very clear there's a lot of backlash for voters.
The voters reject chaos. And now for me, when you're
faced with that kind of mad, crazy chaos, well, I
think you should respond to order and logic, in respond

(08:23):
with our core values. And that's not putting forty two
million Americans for mass food and security or supporting our military.
I mean, today it's Veterans Day, and I think, you know,
I think we want to honor them. In part two,
let's pay our military. That's part of it too. But
my issue is that to attack the kinds of Democrats

(08:45):
that happen to have a different view, that doesn't mean
we're caving. It just means like, hey, maybe we have
a different way of seeing things right there on the ground,
and they can't really describe what their exit ramp is
or how they can define it. So I know, I
understand there's some people that represent very very blue states.

(09:06):
I mean it's they have the luxury of just saying
we're all gas, no breaks. But when I represent a
place like Pennsylvania, it keeps you honest and now there's
another side and trying to find a way forward. And
then let's talk at numbers. In Pennsylvania. We had two million,
two million people on Snap and around four hundred thousand

(09:28):
Pennsylvanians receive those text credits, and now right now, keeping
our government shut down, they're getting neither. You know.

Speaker 1 (09:36):
I interviewed Angus King yesterday and he was one of
well he is an independent, but he was part of
the group that wanted to negotiate a deal to get
the government to reopen. And basically his question was what
was the endgame? How was a negotiation going to happen

(09:56):
given the fact that the Republicans weren't budging on this.
What would your message be to Bernie Sanders right now
if you could speak to him directly.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
Hey, Bernie, okay, Well, I would respond with a question saying, Hey,
you're talking to a single mother with three kids and
there's nothing on their snap card, you know, tell them that, hey,
just hang on, hang on, We got your back. But
we are in a big political battle. It's like you
just have to find a way your way forward.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
Let me ask you about the response that you've gotten
on social media. I was reading it yesterday, some of
the comments on threads. One woman wrote, my fifty year old,
otherwise healthy husband has cancer. His treatment costs five hundred
and forty seven thousand dollars. We can't afford that your
vote may very well kill my husband. His life and

(10:49):
the lives of thousands of others are in your hands.
So far you're condemning them to death. Someone else writes,
you failed us and no longer deserve to represent us.
Just go home and let us win the fight. We
no longer need cowards around us. We embraced you when
you were sick, donated to your campaign. You are so ungrateful.
Shame on you. Another rights when I die, I want

(11:11):
John Fetterman to be my pallbearer so he can let
me down for the zillientth and final time, because dying
is the only way I'll stop being appalled by him
and all the knives he plunged into our backs. Finally,
Lydia Russo writes, disgraceful capitulation, Senator, shame on you. I'm
curious to hear your reaction to those comments.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
My only reaction is like, my heart breaks, and I'm
so sorry that they're in this difficult situation regarding their health. Absolutely,
I'm so sorry to be and then that so regardless, Now,
there are many people that are in the middle of
this right now, and I'm sorry that they're caught in
the middle of this political battle.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
They're blaming you though, clearly, Senator for reopening the government
and what they seem to believe is giving up the
fight for healthcare for people like them.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Any other response, their response is just I'm so sorry
that you're in this situation. And now, for me, I
think shutting down our entire government is the appropriate way
to achieve health insurance. And again, it's a tragedy and
I'm so sorry that they're in that situation.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
Going back to the potential vote on these issues that
Senator Thune sort of has given his word on, but
Mike Johnson is being a little more slippery. What would
you say to Mike Johnson to support some of the
people who are writing these kinds of comments.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
I lost the count of how many times I voted
to extend those text credits. I would be the first
guy to vote for those kinds of a thing, and
I'm not the guy stopping this. And you know, there's
not a single Democrat in the Capital that wouldn't vote
to extend those text credits, not a single one. And
now democracy has put us in the minority. And you know,

(13:03):
we don't have a democratic president as well either, So
there's a lot of things working against that right now.
And it's not about opening up the government. It's really
about the situation that we are in right now. And
what I can say to Mike Johnson is is like, I, hey,
let's do these folks right, you know, because plenty of
their constituents are going to be touched by this too,

(13:24):
And I do believe if it's going to impact that
and they realize that it's bad politics and it's just
bad for our nation, then we can find a way
forward for these kinds of things.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
I know, Senator, you've gotten a reputation for not always
quote unquote falling in line with your fellow Democrats, being
an independent voice and in your book Unfettered You right,
I've drunk deeply of the venom of both the left
and the right, and the most poisonous, the bitterest, is
from the far left.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Those are strong words.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Tell me why you wrote that and what motivated those comments.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
I asked my digital folks, I said, what's the harshest
social and they said, oh, absolutely, it's blue Sky, Blue Sky.
It's been my experience. The right you would say, you know, really,
you know, mean things and call me names and that thing.
But what's really emerged on the other side, it's like, hey,

(14:25):
I'm rooting for your next stroke, or it sucks that
depression didn't win, or I hope your kids, you know,
you know, can just witness you know, you die, and
all these kinds of things. People forget that there's a
name attached to these things. So for me, it's it's
an indictment on social media. But what I'm saying, it's

(14:46):
been in my experience that it's both difficult, but some
of the most personal things are when someone's praying for
my death and they want my children to find me
there It's like, I think that's a little next level versus, hey,
I have happen to disagree with you.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
You've said that Donald Trump, in your view, is not
an autocrat because his presidency is quote the product of
a democratic election. But history has shown that even leaders
who come to power through elections can still govern in
anti democratic ways. So I have to ask, when you
consider some of Donald Trump's behaviors and policies, like deploying

(15:27):
federal forces to US cities, undermining the Department of Justice,
is independence attempting to overturn the twenty twenty election. Does
that not trouble you deeply?

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Well? Of course, I was really the tip of the
spear in the twenty twenty election in Pennsylvania where he
claimed that it wasn't like a fair, safe election. Absolutely,
I pushed back violently on that, and I don't support
many of these things that are happening right now. I
don't never vote for those things. But I think at

(16:01):
this point right now, we are not in an autocracy.
You know, We're in the democracy. And that's why they
were able to shut our government down. And that doesn't
mean that we appreciate what's happening. And that expression it's
not normal, it's like, yes, it isn't normal, but that
doesn't mean this is an autocracy right now, and what
it does mean that we have a lot of hills

(16:23):
that we can choose to die on. But I think
for me, I've just been choosing some of the most
difficult ones and that's where I've been and not supporting.
You know, many of these things that are happening.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Do you think that Donald Trump is not conducting himself
or not pushing policies though that you would consider to
be anti democratic?

Speaker 2 (16:47):
What I'm saying as a Democrat with a ninety percent
record voting Democrat, that's a fact. That's not my opinion,
that's my number.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
Now I'm talking about Donald Trump's some of the things
that he's doing. If you don't believe we're living in
an autocracy, would you can see that some of the
things that he is doing are clearly anti democratic and
also are potentially even unconstitutional.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
So for me, it's like, you know, we have a
difference here. It's like if you believe we live in
autocracy and I don't, and I think we can both
agree that we've asked. We don't agree with the vest
majority of those things that's happened here right now, and
I wouldn't do those things. I wouldn't have made those
same kind of decisions for that, and that's that's fine.

(17:39):
Where we are right now, a committed Democrat and we
happen to have a different view of these things. You know.
It's like, I don't call people fascists or Nazis or
compare people to Hitler, and I think that's part of
why we lost our election last year. You know, if
you call the person that you might vote for, that

(18:00):
implies that you must be a fascist or you're trying
to destroy our nation. And I know, and I love
with some of those people, and they're not doing any
of those things. So that's really the thing. So and
the vast majority of Americans chose chose that an option
that I did not choose, and actually campaigned the entire

(18:21):
effectively the year for Harris and Biden after he before
he dropped out. So that's exactly where where we are.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
I know that you write about your wife, Giselle, who
came to the US as an undocumented immigrant before eventually
becoming an American citizen, So I know, Senator you have
a front row seat to the process when you think
about her story, I wonder how you square that with
the way the Trump administration is handling immigration from the

(18:52):
ice rage to the broader rhetoric around migrants in this country.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, well, I think that's why two things must be true,
and it's fully compatible. I remain one of the most
pro immigration senator in the entire Senate. And I also
happen to believe it's mass chaos when we have three
hundred thousand people showing up at our border every month,
and you know, acknowledging that my party did a terrible

(19:19):
job on securing our border during the Biden administration. For me,
chaos chaos is that you have these ice raids and targeting,
you know, otherwise hardworking migrants. I don't support those things.
You know, I'm appalled by those things. But I think
also there's significant chaos about we need to have us

(19:40):
secure our border.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
Shouldn't there be another way to do both of those
things in terms of securing the border. It's my understanding, Senator,
and maybe you can clarify it for me and for
people watching and listening that there was a bipartisan immigration
bill that was really worked out by Publicans and Democrats
over the course of many, many months that Donald Trump

(20:05):
urged his fellow Republicans not to vote on because he
instead wanted to use it as a campaign talking point
and to in fact weaponize the whole issue of immigration.
So couldn't a vote have happened that would have maybe
provided some solutions for these issues at the border and

(20:28):
not had the situation where these ICE agents are racially
profiling people, They're separating kids from their families. ICE agents
are driving off with toddlers in the back seats and
car seats. Why didn't the Senate vote on this comprehensive
immigration legislation before the campaign?

Speaker 2 (20:51):
Well? I voted for that, all Democrats did, But I
also knew that we would get rolled on it, because
of course we're going to get rolled on that because
that is one of his biggest clubs. He's not going
to hand that over and take that him away. And
he was able to derail all of that because and
he wasn't even the president at that time, So that's

(21:12):
where we are. I fully fully expected that there wasn't
going to be a bipartisan deal because that is one
of his major major things he used to win.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Honestly, I know, and I guess that's why I wonder
if it's fair to blame the Biden administration to well,
you just did blame the Democrats for not doing a
good job at the border, and I understand what you're saying.
At the same time, there was this bipartisan legislation which
would have addressed the issue at the border, but Donald

(21:45):
Trump wouldn't allow the Republicans to vote for it because
he didn't want to give them a win, as you
just said. So it seems to me that to give
him credit when he actually was an impediment to getting
this ledge passed seems misplaced, if you know what I'm saying. No,
not really, you don't know what I'm saying here.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
No, people negotiated a bipartisan deal because the Democrats finally realized, yes,
it's a mess there. And then the population the size
of Pittsburgh was showing up at the border every month,
every month, and now they were eager, eager to trying
to find a deal because they knew we would pay
a significant price for the election. And then I expected

(22:31):
that the president would well, actually he wasn't the president
at the time. He controls the party, and it's like, hey, no, no,
no way, And that's what happened. I had a professor
at grad school, Alan Simpson, if you can remember.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
I remember him.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, he told me this back in nineteen ninety eight.
And remember he was a Republican, a pro choice Republican
from Wyoming. That's how things have changed. Regardless. He said,
you're never going to have any significant immigration kinds of
a deal because both sides use it and it's too
useful for people to have an actual solution right now.

(23:09):
And he said that at that point, over a quarter
century ago. And that's where we were for that, and
I voted for it. I did, but on one vote,
and unfortunately more people would have voted for it. And
that's part of where we are.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
My point is, Senator, we wouldn't be in this situation
if Donald Trump hadn't prevented Republicans from moving this legislation forward.
We wouldn't have ICE agents deployed to all these cities
across the country. We would have solved some of the
immigration problems at the border if that legislation had been
allowed to pass.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Yeah, legislation that I voted for.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
And right, but a solution was at hand. And yet
Donald Trump, because he wanted to use it as a
campaign weapon, stopped it from moving forward.

Speaker 3 (23:58):
That's all. That's my understanding.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Absolutely. In fact, I think he effectively said the same thing. Yeah,
it's like a blame me, blame me. I mean, I
think he's even said that.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
In this conversation, we're going to look at the profound
support oncologists provide, guiding patients and families through difficult moments
while helping give back milestones and key life moments. Monica,
I have had to interact with a number of oncologists
during my life. Can you talk about the support aspect

(24:32):
of an oncologist's role.

Speaker 4 (24:35):
The role of oncologists is really one that I have
so much admiration for people that are stepping into that
space because having to stay up to date with that
science and matt medicine while retaining your humanity and being
able to engage people on that one to one space
is something that's a very very special relationship.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
In fact, Monica, I read that oncologists may be in
a position to have to tell families not great news
as many as twenty thousand times over the course of
their career.

Speaker 4 (25:10):
Isn't that an incredible number to think about? And the
way this human mind works is that we often remember
the bad more than that, we remember the good and
I think one of the ways that we can support
on cologists is by reminding them that they are also
there for the positive parts of that cancer journey.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Well, I too, having known many in my sixty eight years,
am so appreciative that I have an opportunity to say
thank you on behalf of patients everywhere and their families.

Speaker 4 (25:44):
It's been an absolute pleasure, Katie, Thank you so much
for the opportunity. Please come and visit us at BMS
dot com slash time back and you can learn more
there about our commitments oncologists and the time back that
they potentially can give to patients.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
As we've heard, on don't just treat cancer, They aim
to return precious time, helping people savor celebrations big and small,
from birthdays to watching a child's baseball game. Time is
the greatest gift we can give and receive. As we

(26:19):
turn the clocks back this fall, Bristol Meyers SQUIB is
recognizing oncologists who help give patients something extraordinary more time.
The Time Back campaign celebrates those everyday heroes who are
working tirelessly in the pursuit of potentially helping get patients
more time to experience key moments like seeing a child

(26:41):
learned to ride a bike or a long awaited vacation.
As we turn back our clocks, let's pause to thank
the doctors who make a difference every day. Discover more
about the time Back campaign and join Bristol Meyers Squib
and celebrating the physicians who give the gift of more
time at BMS dot com slash time back. You've been

(27:17):
criticized by some in your party for your stepfast support
of Israel, and I know that you write in the
book that some former staffers turned on you because of it,
and they have implied that your support of Israel has
to do with your impaired mental health, which you say
is not true. Can you talk about this criticism and
the larger split it represents in your party between progressives

(27:41):
and moderates.

Speaker 2 (27:42):
Well, I don't have anything to comment on those things,
but yes, it's absolutely true. Israel has divided Democrats without
a doubt, and I remained an unapologetic supporter of Israel.
And that's where I am and now here we are
now actual peace here in the region, and I think

(28:02):
that's a profound outcome, and after what Israel was able
to achieve. They were able to break and effectively destroy
Hamas Hezbollah as well too. And now Iran, you know,
their nuclear facilities, clearly trying to acquire a nuclear weapon.
And I absolutely supported those strikes as well too. And

(28:23):
now here we are in a position now for real peace,
and I think that's a good thing. And I just
call balls and strikes. It's like I can celebrate those
things regardless of who it's coming from.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
I'm curious do you have any issue with Benjamin Netanyahu
in the response to the October seventh attacks, which killed
nearly seventy thousand people, about half of whom are women
and children, along with about ninety five hundred people missing
and presume debt according to the Gossam Ministry of Health.

(28:55):
I'm just curious if your stepfast support of Israel has
ever win when you consider the response to October seventh,
which many believe was disproportionate.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Well, what, I believe that the tragedy in Gaza, absolutely,
undeniably it was a tragedy. Now you have a choice,
do you blame Israel, which I don't, or I blame Hamas,
I blame Iran, and I blame some of those nations
in the region that didn't hold Hamas accountable, and you
have to pick a side. I'm absolutely going to pick

(29:30):
the democratically elected leader of our ally and that they
project and protect the kinds of values that we live
and we want in our nation. And that's a choice,
you know, for now too. If I am going to
criticize one side, it's going to be entirely on the
people that what they've done on ten seven and that
they keep human beings underground for two years. I've met

(29:52):
with them and the nightmares that they've been through as
well too. Absolutely, that's a tragedy. And now peace and
now we can rebuild Gaza, and there's perhaps a better solution. Now. Remember,
if Hamas has not done what they've done, you know,
all of these people would still be alive, and or

(30:14):
if they would have chosen a two state solution that
President Clinton produced back in nineteen ninety nine. I had
a chance to talk to him at a campaign event
that I had with Kamala Harris, and he reminded they
were offered ninety six percent and they could pick four
percent for Israel and they could have East Jerusalem as

(30:34):
the capital, and they would have had a two state
solution and they rejected that. So there's some accountability when
when they had a two state solution. It really the
truth there is that they is a one nation solution
and that's no Israel and wiping it out. And also,
you know, I yess if you're harsh, I'd be harsh

(30:57):
on Iran. Why are they trying to build a bomb
and they've promised to destroy it. That's one of their
organizing principles is to destroy Israel trying to build a
nuclear bomb. I'm going to criticize that before I criticize
Israel because they refuse to send on the hostages and
to disarm. That's the way wars operate.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Do you have any solution for bridging the intense divide
that this has resulted in for the Democratic Party?

Speaker 2 (31:31):
That's difficult. And I'm convinced that younger voters, you know,
they're gone and now they I think I've seen polls
where they identify more with Hamas than Israel, and I
think that's part of TikTok and social media that created
a bubble devoid of history and devoid of a lot

(31:53):
of the situation on ground, and most people don't remember
or even New that they have an opportunity for a
two state solution to build their own nation in peace,
but they were strongly rejected that.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Do you think this is irreparable within the party? I
know you talked about it being generational. Do you think
there's any way to find common ground when it comes
to the topic of Israel for Democrats in general?

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Part of the issue that with some Democrats most of
it came from. Much of it came from is my
support for Israel. And anyone that can look up my
record to vote ninety percent the damn line from a
very purple state like Pennsylvania, I think that would identify
me as a committed Democrat. I'm not changing my party,

(32:48):
and I had a very strong support for Israel. But
what I can say that picking aside for this it
was a very easy choice if you study the history
or if you can see the circumstance is right there
on the ground.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
I'm curious to get your reaction, Senator Fetterman, to the
election of Zorammam Donnie as the new mayor of New
York City. I'm sure you were following this race pretty closely.
What do you make of his victory here?

Speaker 2 (33:17):
I really I wasn't following it closely, and I would
have no strong opinion with him. But people keep asking
because he and I knew it would become a litmus
and he's not my mayor. I don't live in New
York City, and he will have virtually no impact on
my life or my politics.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
I was asking more as like, you know, your reaction
in terms of what it signals to the Democratic Party
probably more than the impact he'll have on your life
for your constituents.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
You know, well what it again, I won't have any impact,
you know, in the politics that are required to win
the next presidential election. It's not going to come down
to how New York City votes. It's going to depend
on how my state votes. When fifty percent plus one wins,
then that means one person supports you, and that means
there's another one that opposes you. In a very deep,

(34:13):
deep blue city, I truly truly wish him the best.
I would never root against it. I'm going to root
for anyone because I'm rooting for New York City. It's
it's a magnificent city and that's where that's where we are.
And people keep asking me, well, what's your opinion on him,
and I'm like, that's their next mayor, and it's like,

(34:34):
I am a Pennsylvania senator and we have different values
and that's the circumstances. And I'm not surprised. And I've
predicted that that's going to become a significant part of
the messaging for the GOP and they've used that.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
President Trump himself has called you, quote the most sensible Democrat.
And I know you met with him in January, you
say in part because you wanted to quote find kinship
and common ground over the fact that you would both
come face to face with death. I'm curious what were
your impressions of him? Can you tell us a little

(35:10):
bit about that meeting and what you thought of him
in general.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
Well, they reached out and they wanted to invite me
to attend dinner, and that was in January, before he
was even took the office, and as a senator for
Pennsylvania and the president, you know, would like to meet
with you. I think that's part of the party and
I think that's pretty reasonable to say, Okay, sure, absolutely,

(35:35):
that doesn't mean we agree on everything. And that's what
I decided to do. And we spoke for about seventy
five minutes and overall, and my wife was there too,
and we even discussed possibly, hey, could there be a
deal about the Dreamers? And again, I just wanted to

(35:56):
have that. And I'm again, you know, you talked about
immigrant you know, I'm constantly it's like, I would love
to protect the Dreamers. Absolutely, And that's part of my
wife's story. She came here when she was seven years old.
I agree, And that's why I had dinner with him.
And if a Republican, you know, got an offer to

(36:16):
have dinner with Obama, and if if he or she
said absolutely not, whatever, I think people would be like,
why not? Why not? It's like, what's the big deal,
what's the problem.

Speaker 1 (36:25):
I don't think anybody suggesting you shouldn't have met with him.
I just wanted to know a lot of people, you're, well,
I wasn't. I just wanted to know your impressions of him.
Was he receptive to your ideas? Did he strike you
as a different person than he is on say, social
media and in some of his rhetoric.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
I was just curious, profoundly different, absolutely profoundly different, you know,
than his public persona. And one of the reason why
I did that because we both survived a near death
experience and it really changed me. And I was wondering, Hey,
did that change your life? Because you had probably the

(37:06):
most profound political turnaround that I can ever ever recall.
And you know, you've been shot in their head and
that bullet it could have been just a little to
the left, I guess, to the right, and can you
imagine the place our nation would have been if that
would have happened. But regardless, though, I hoped that we

(37:26):
this created an opportunity to do big things and different things,
And quickly I discovered that, yeah, the vast majority of
the thing he's going to do weren't the kinds of
choices I wouldn't have made to be in that situation,
because you know, to understand that kinds of a you know, death,
whether it's because of a medical one for me or
in an assassin I took that in and that's one

(37:49):
of the reasons why I did that.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
Did he seem affected? How did it change him? What
did he tell you about that?

Speaker 2 (37:57):
I mean, who wouldn't be impacted by when you get
shot in the head and they the only reason you're
alive is because it missed it missed.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
Being fun for What did he tell you about that?

Speaker 2 (38:09):
No, of course not. I'm not going to talk about that.
That must have been, you know, one of the worst
moments in his life, you know, Like I mean, if
he would have brought it up, I could, but I'm
certainly not going to bring that up. I mean, that's
a basic courtesy for me, because that happened in my state.
I was thirty minutes away when it happened, and I

(38:30):
was just, oh my god. You know, and after we've
seen what happened to Charlie Kirk and cand you imagine
if it was that same kind of a terrable thing
if it was him. I mean, Charlie Kirk's assassination royaled
the nation. Imagine if that was President Trump. Imagine what
that would have done for our nation overall. And thank

(38:51):
god that did not happen. And I didn't agree with
many things of Charlie Kirk, but it was entirely appropriate
to allow people to grieve and give people that respect
and the space to do that, and not take that
opportunity to push an argument or to remind people that
a father of young children was shot in public because

(39:14):
of his political views and that's a tragedy and give
people the space to grieve.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
Having said that, I'm curious, do you think that flags
should have been flown at half staff? Do you think
his body should have been flown on air force too?
Do you think he should have posthumously be given the
Presidential Medal of Freedom. I think some people felt that
was perhaps over the top in terms of mourning someone

(39:43):
like Charlie Kirk. How did you feel about that?

Speaker 2 (39:47):
I'd say that that was his choice and his prerogative.
That was really entirely up to him.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Did you have any issues now in hindsight over some
of the things that Charlie Kirk said and some of
the rhetoric he during his life.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
I didn't agree with much of it. I didn't closely
followed his specific kinds of views, but I did.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
I'm sure you learned about them after his death, though.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
No, I haven't done a deep dive on it, you know,
I described I mean, we've all seen that terrible video,
perhaps if you've seen the actual video, I have, and
it's like appalling, and that's part of the political violence,
and from what I'm saying, it's like that's unacceptable and
engaging in a debate and views I strongly disagree on.

(40:33):
That's part of the American democracy, and for me, it's
that would never justify what's happened. And I just chose
not to take the opportunity to argue his views after
after children loft his father in the most violent public way.
I mean, I would say the equivalent, the equivalent on

(40:56):
the left might be, say, mister Piker, I strongly disagree
with his views, but I would A'm appalled if something
like that happened to him. Oh my god. I mean
that's you know, like we have to disagree in better
ways where you know you're going to solve it by
shooting people. I think the appropriate way when someone is
publicly assassinated. I'm not checking their views. I'm saying we

(41:19):
should grieve and allow people to grieve and the kinds
of space that they deserve to do those things. And
I tried, I found like a left equivalent. In fact,
they used to debate each other. Hassan Piker someone that
I strongly disagree on his views, but he absolutely has
the right to have that conversations and not have to

(41:40):
risk being shut And it's like that's why they debated
each other because they're on the different side there. I
haven't done deep dives on both of their respective shows,
but I'm saying, don't shoot people you disagree. Don't shoot
CEOs because you happen to have strong, warped views about
they're entitled to shoot a CEO of an insurance company

(42:03):
because you want to fight for fight. That's again, that's
definitely the wrong tactic to make a statement about healthcare.
Is shooting a father in the middle of a street
in New York. And now you know, people are dressing
up like Luigi and he's he got about over a
million dollars in legal defense. Now, so that's perverse because

(42:29):
if you shoot a person because of their job, it's like, hey,
the next one might be you or me or whoever
if you happen to disagree. And that's the wrong way
for our country to be. And that's why I refuse
those those kinds of rhetoric. Calling people those extreme things
extreme rhetoric makes it easier for extreme reactions or to

(42:54):
justify them.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
I think some people might say Charlie Kirk's rhetoric was extreme,
you know. I think that's the conversation that happened. People
condemned political violence, but they also felt a great deal
of discomfort with his language, suggesting that these kinds of
words lead to violence. I'm just sharing my observations as

(43:19):
I saw the conversations unfold.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
I think we agree that we probably didn't agree with
much of what he said, but I think I'm sure
we both agree that you shouldn't shoot people you know,
and you shouldn't execute them in public. And that's I
think that's two things must be true that free speech.
I'm an absolute free speech guy, and you have the

(43:46):
right to say these things, and you definitely also have
the right not to get shot by sharing your views.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Let's talk a little more about your book and the
time we have left, Senator. It is incredibly raw and transparent,
particularly about your mental and physical health. You didn't need
to write a book like this, and I'm curious why
you decided to be so radically honest and put so
much of your own story out there.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
Oh thank you for that phrase, radically honest, because the
only reason to do it is if you're going to
be honest. And for me, I think it's an important conversation.
I know it may not be a big political win
to talk about these topics but millions of American I
know suffer from that. And appropriately on Veterans Day where

(44:35):
we're talking eighteen veterans take their lives every day eighteen.
And I think I was the first public official to
talk about suicide and I strongly, strongly considered that because
that's the danger of depression. And I know people have
been there. I lost people that I cared deeply through

(44:57):
suicide and they've left young children or grandchildren and it's heartbreaking.
And now that's that message is stay in the game.
And after winning the biggest election in the cycle, that's
actually when depression really really hit. And then I started
to have some of the darkest conversations and trying to

(45:19):
describe to people. I'm not an expert, I'm not in training,
but I have experienced that awful, awful sickness and I
don't want this for you, but if someone is in that,
it's like, stay in the game and keep it as
simple as you can, because the lie of depression is
that the best solution is to take yourself out, and

(45:43):
that is the awful choice you can't ever come back from.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
And you not only talk about your depression, but obviously
the stroke that you suffered and how that all transpired.
It was in twenty twenty two. You'd launched your second
campaign for Senate and four days before the primary, you
were on your way to a campaign event when your
wife Gizelle, noticed your mouth was drooping slightly. Can you

(46:11):
share with us what unfolded from there?

Speaker 2 (46:14):
Absolutely? Absolutely. I was on my way to a campaign
at Millersville University and I literally just went into a
sheets If you're not familiar with like a sheets, it's
like a gas station and a food place. You know,
you know, Pennsylvania really would know that I was in
going to the bathroom. And I walked out and I

(46:36):
sat in the car and Giselle said, my god, you're
having a stroke and half of my face apparently, and
I didn't know that was drooping. And thankfully I was
in Lancaster and they have an incredible facility, and that
was we actually drove directly to the hospital and those
doctors quite literally saved my life. And I actually had

(46:59):
the opportunity to shake his hand and meet him and
I got to actually give him a hug for saving
my life. And if that would have happened at one am,
I would have never woke up or that could have
happened in a remote part of Pennsylvania during the campaign,
I wouldn't have survived. Probably, So that's how it. No

(47:21):
one knows when they're living their last fifteen minutes. And
at that point, walking into a men's room at sheets,
I was, and I had no idea, and that was coming.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
The fall of twenty twenty two was brutal. You were
still recovering from the stroke. As the campaign heated up,
mehmet Oz's team attacked you relentlessly. You write that their
ads got into your head, that you began to believe
some of the insults, and that if the deadline to
drop out had been in September instead of August, you

(47:52):
would have Can you take us back to that time, Senator,
and tell us the kind of pressure you were under,
both physically and mentally, and how that led into your depression.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
I was attacked relentlessly and called all kinds of terrible,
terrible names, and now I had to make a choice,
are you able to recover to be an effective candidate?
And actually the last day to withdraw was my birthday,
August fifteenth, and by that point, all the polls and
everything in our campaign, we were I guess that pull

(48:27):
tracker that five point thirty eight had us about an
eighty four percent chance of winning. And things were going
really well, and I continued to get better, so I
stayed in it. But then the absolute blow torch turned
on in September and the one hundred million dollars of
paid media and everything immediately hit and that all hit

(48:47):
all at once, and that was incredibly intense. And then
that that was part of the breakdown. And then I chose,
I chose to have a debate, and I knew that
would be rough.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
Yeah, talk about that debate, Senator, because that was rough,
and I'm curious how you experienced it in real time
and how you dealt with the aftermath.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Plenty of people were saying, that's crazy, just just you know,
you know, duck. I mean plenty of time people, duck.
But I said, hey, I'm not afraid of I'm not
afraid of it. This is an honest assessment of where
we're at, and I don't have any regret. After that,
I was convinced that that might be it. And I'm

(49:34):
sure many many Democrats were just, oh my god, what
happened here? And that's and yeah, I absolutely own probably
the worst political debate in American history.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
You're right, Simply quoting my words does not do justice
to just how awful the moment was. Nobody knew where
I stood on the issue. I look bewildered, hardly someone
on the road to recovery. The clip would be played
over and over and over, popping up seemingly everywhere in
my sleep, and the shower and the car on the sidewalk,
where everyone you passed was whispering it. That must have

(50:10):
been so hard. How did you stay in the race.
How did you convince yourself that you just had to
hang in there and that you had to dig deep
and find resilience and not be defeated by that performance.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Yeah, well, the way we designed that the debate was
that was October twenty fifth, and the election was effectively
two weeks later. And then after that debate, we continued
to campaign, and at that point I became convinced that
it was going to slip away after that, and that's

(50:48):
that was part of part of the pressure. And that's
when you can spend over one hundred million dollars and
say terrible things. And also the right online war machine
absolutely kind of bar down and because that was the
most important race and everybody needed to hold that seat.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. You've

(51:40):
been so transparent about your health, about your stroke, Senator,
about the depression you experienced, but in some ways it's
been turned against you. On one hand, people might argue
the public has a right to know about the fitness
of an elected official. How do you draw the line

(52:01):
between fair accountability and unfair intrusion? Do you think there
is a line, or do you think it's the public's
right to know everything about a politician's health.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
Yeah, well, I mean that's really up to voters to decide.
It's not up to me to decide. And that's why
I was absolutely transparent, and that's why I chose to
do a debate, and I put myself in front a
debate that I can't imagine millions of people were watching.
You know, like, that's about as transparent as you could
possibly be. Knowing that was going to be a rough moment,

(52:39):
I didn't show up thinking, oh, yeah, I can win.
I mean, doctor Oz is an incredibly capable communicator. I
mean he lives on TV. I mean he made his
career on that. I mean you know that, so of course,
and I might have assumed that's how it would go.
But that's about being transparent, and that's why I able

(53:00):
to have own it and have this conversation and a
part of this book, because after surviving all of those things,
most people would have been elated after winning, but I
got so beaten down. And they even put up a
gigantic billboard as I drive into my hometown, you know,
with a terrible picture and everything. I couldn't get away

(53:23):
and my parents couldn't get away from it on all
the channels, everywhere online, my kids and their social media feed.
And then finally, after winning that I didn't expect to
even win, I turned on myself, and that's why I
decided that probably the best solution is to take my life.

Speaker 3 (53:43):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
In fact, you're incredibly open in the book about your
darkest moments, even writing about contemplating suicide by jumping off
the rank and bridge when your depression was at its worst.
Was that difficult to write? And looking back on it now, Senator,
are you surprised at how bad it got?

Speaker 2 (54:05):
It's difficult, but it affirms I am really the luckiest
guy alive. You know, it was this was the paradox that,
you know, after dying medically after the stroke and able
to survive, then I decided that, you know, like I
almost took myself out after surviving the stroke. And that's
that is dark and it's not easy to talk about,

(54:29):
but it's important to talk because that's why I'm begging
people that are in that same place. After you just
won the biggest race, I consider jumping off a bridge.
I plan these kinds of a thing, and it's like,
that's quite a paradox. And I see these things happen,
like the young man that played for the Dallas Cowboys,

(54:51):
he had his first NFL touchdown and he shot himself,
and it's like tragic, tragic. Every suicide is an individual
tragedy and all the lives that are touched by that.
That's why we have to have this conversation. There's an
absolute epidemic in our nation for that depression is bipartisan.

(55:13):
You know, it doesn't check. Hey, are you a Republican?
Are you rural, Are you urban? Are you you liberal?
It's like that happens to anybody. So that's where I'm
having this conversation.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
This book is really for people who might be experiencing
some of the darkest moments of their lives as you did,
and to talk to them about the way out of
this kind of deep depression and finding the will to live.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
Oh my gosh, my children saved my life, without a doubt,
they save They saved my life. And when someone told
me that your children, you know, needs their daddy, and
then that really that woke me up. That woke me up.
One of the young staffers, you know, she just kind
of stepped out of role and she said, you know,

(56:05):
your kids need their daddy. And that really because I
didn't want to meet with them because I as they
assumed they were ashamed of me or they didn't want
me anymore. And then I met with them, and I
found out that they did love me and they need
me back in their lives, and that really spontaneously got

(56:25):
me out of it. And that was my gift. That
was the emergency break. And I cannot ever have a
legacy of suicide to be the solution for my children.
When they have struggles in their life, well, then if
dad did that, that must be the right thing. I
cannot allow that to be my legacy. And that's part

(56:46):
of the tragedy of the people that I know of.
They've left children and grandchildren, and that's not a judgment.
My heart breaks for them. I got lucky, and that's
why this conversation is to hope that there is one
less people more that chooses that the right thing is
to take their own life. And if a US senator

(57:07):
can make that choice, or a player in the NFL
can do that, or veterans regardless, that's an important conversation
because to experience it and live with that awful, awful
kinds of feelings. I don't want that for anybody. And
I try to be a voice or a resource to

(57:28):
someone like Okay, I promised to I promise to keep
myself in this game. And I've had conversations with members
of Congress and parents with their and their kids, you know, staffers,
other people, and they've taken strength or inspiration from that.
I never really thought that voice would penetrate, but it did,

(57:51):
and if it did, you know, it's an honor. It's
an honor to affirm that it's always, always, always the
wrong choice to take your life, and depression is awful,
and it's the lie to convince you the best solution
is having a world without you. And I think I

(58:12):
was the first person to ever talk about it as
a public official, and I remember after that President Biden
actually shared that he had a moment in life where
he considered to take his life. And that's important too,
to have people in these positions to say, hey, this
is very human and it must be you, and it's

(58:33):
okay and things will get better.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
Do you think as a senator, I'm just curious, is
there more that can be done in terms of national
policies to provide more support to people who are going
through the kind of depression you experienced and other mental
health challenges. Is there enough being done?

Speaker 2 (58:56):
I sure hope so, and I want to be a
part of every conversation about it. And I'm trying to
create conversations about this because I've had people reach out
since this book come out or immediately after when I've
been having these interviews. I know politically it's not necessarily
a winner, but I think it's honest, and I think

(59:18):
a lot of people that haven't shared it publicly would
know that they face these same kinds of circumstances, and
the one choice you can't ever recover from is taking
your life. People all know that have had a serious
attempt to take their lives by jumping off a bridge.
One hundred percent of those people spontaneously realized, oh my god,

(59:41):
this is a mistake. I want to live. I want
to live, and now they were able to survive, and
that spontaneously cured that depression, and they realize that awful
choice that you've just made.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
You've really been through it, Senator. Your list of medical
issues is long, A minor stroke, a trial relation, cardiomyopathy,
clinical depression. I'm curious if you continue to receive regular
medical treatment for your depression and other health issues, and
how you would describe your current physical and mental shape.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Well, there's just nothing but good great news. Now I'm
proud to say that my heart functions at a fully
normal normal function. I don't suffer from those things that
I describe in that, and I use a pacemaker, and
I don't have a fib anymore. And aphib was the
thing that I inherited from inherited from my father and

(01:00:39):
In May of twenty three, my father collapsed in the kitchen.
I got that awful call in my office. He was
on a ventilator for a month, and I had to
stand by his bed, and then I have what kind
of the stress my experience is that part of it
having to watch all of these attack ads and then

(01:01:00):
having to visit my father sitting by his bed, you know,
like I visualized if I was sitting aside the bed
of my son, if he was it could be dying.
Has that contributed to that eventually? Uh? And and that's
that's that's heartbreaking. But he made a full recovery, which
is remarkable. And one day we turned to each other

(01:01:22):
and said, we both should be dead, and we both
are the luckiest guy alive, and we just can only celebrate,
you know, to be here right now and affirm just
it might sound trite to to appreciate life, but I
think Warren Zvin, uh, you know, enjoy every sandwich in

(01:01:42):
that way. And I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoy my life. And
I am so grateful and in the middle of how
devices our politics are and how terrible that it is,
I want to find a way forward and to be
a voice. I don't know if that's the winning lane,
but it happens to be my lane, and I've lost

(01:02:04):
the taste to just be. You say these kinds of thing.
It comes from a place of deep, deep gratitude because
I should be dead. I should be dead, and I've
got a second chance by surviving a stroke that I
guess technically did take my life, but I came back
and I was able to overcome the choice to even

(01:02:28):
take your own life. And that's why I'm paying this forward.
And I don't have any grudges. I just I really
wanted to say thank you for every opportunity and to
be the voice through an epidemic and a scourge here,
and to be the kind of voice in politics in
the middle of this that we really should. And we

(01:02:50):
have forgotten that we need each other, and it's getting
more and more difficult to remember that we need each
other and we all live together. And I know people
and love people that voted for President Trump, but that
doesn't mean that doesn't mean that they're terrible. It just
means we have to find a way to work together
and get along. And America will celebrate Thanksgiving and we

(01:03:13):
all will be in close proximenity to people. So that's
you know, people are three dimensional, it's not just how
they happen to vote, and that's a way forward. And
describing my own death both medically and you know, suicide
is an important conversation, but also having a conversation of

(01:03:33):
why I chose to break cloture, you know, and now.
And that's why I'm touched by that story that you
referenced online that her husband is suffering in such a
terrible way. It's part of the tragedy, but it's like
the solution means that we can all find a way
to work together on things as difficult as it is.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
How have you been able to manage your depression? Obviously
this is something that doesn't sort of magically necessarily go away.
Any advice for people who are struggling in terms of
not being afraid of medication and therapy, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
Well, I'm saying, like, I don't know what your path
could be, Try find whatever's available. And as long as
you promise yourself that you're you're going to stay in
the game, you know you can, you can emerge, and
you don't have to believe the lie of taking yourself
out and that's that's my advice, honestly, and with depression

(01:04:33):
for me, like I've been just the way I've been
able to rebuild my heart, I've also haven't suffered from
the kind of depression. And after in this deeply deeply
divided time, I find it affirming. Why It's like it's
an honor. It's an honor to be a voice for Pennsylvania.
And if I've disappointed some of my fellow Democrats for that,

(01:04:54):
I'm truly sorry, But I don't judge them on their views,
and I hope they would for the same level of
respect for mine. But reminding people, as a Democrat, as
a ninety percent Democrat voter, we are allowed to have
different views because we need to be a big tent
Democrat in order to win the big elections. And that's

(01:05:17):
where we are. And I am absolutely rooting for the
mayor of New York. I don't agree with many of
his views, but that's an important city, it's a beautiful city,
and it's like I want him to be successful, and
that's that's where we are. We can we have to
agree to get a way forward, regardless of their political views.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Given everything you've been through, Senator, I'm amazed that you've
decided to stay in politics, a line of business that
you yourself describe as sometimes poisonous. How do you find
the strength and resilience to continue to fight when it
has been such a blood sport and probably not the

(01:06:04):
healthiest line of work for someone like you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Well, it's it's like, uh, you know, you have interviews
with NFL players and they will ask them the question,
would you want your sons playing in the NFL, and
increasingly more and more saying no, no, I wouldn't. I
wouldn't now, I wouldn't recommend that. And thankfully none of
my own children are they haven't been bit by that bug.

(01:06:30):
But I would recommend anybody that it is. It's increasingly
becoming a contact sport, and people often forget one of
the accelerants of social media. And if you drop something
online and call people and say rough things, it touches
people because there's a there's a name attached to that
screen and they absorb those things. And that I did

(01:06:52):
the mistake of reading throughhol those you know, after the election,
and yes there were terrible things said, but it was
the volume of it, you know, just millions of views
or millions of things, And I'm like, where did this
come from? You know, for someone that I had different
views than you, and the kinds of hate and the
wishes for your death and for those things. Have we

(01:07:15):
just kind of lost ourselves in a way. And that's
part of the important conversation where if if you receive
some kind of a relief to say something like that online,
but I promise you it doesn't make our nation more
just or safe. That's actually helping destroy our democracy too,
not different than a lot of these destructive kinds of

(01:07:36):
choices that I don't support that have happened during under
the Trump administration. So for me, it's like it's a person,
it's a person attached and if you wouldn't want that
for you, I wouldn't say anything on social media that
I wouldn't say to somebody in person right right now.
And I think that's a good rule because it's it's
hard to say things if you sit down or talk

(01:07:58):
to them and say, okay, we can agree or we
can disagree on these things without saying these things. And
we all have to remind I do too, I mean
all these things. It can get intent sometimes, but we
can't forget that humanity because it really does impact people,
especially children. Truly truly heartbreaking things. Are children that are

(01:08:20):
bullied into suicide. Oh my god, that's just awful. One
of the children, one of the children's parents that reached out.
I met with him fifteen years try to to kill
himself twice. He was in a hospital and I'm like,
you know, please, I beg you on that. So for me,
we got to be kinder to people because it has

(01:08:42):
an impact, because it had an impact on mine. And
I don't think it should have taken personal, but it
feels very personal when people spend the time to jump
on their phone and just unload on a person that
you probably never even met them in person. So that's
the truth. That's the truth. And unlimited money. Unlimited money

(01:09:02):
in our politics is part of also the indictment. When
somebody can accrue one hundred and twenty million dollars to
absolutely destroy your reputation and create a carpet bombing, absolutely
annihilate your reputation and say things that have no basis
in reality, that's perfectly legal, and that's what's to be expected.

(01:09:25):
And my race, my race was around three hundred and
twenty million dollars. That was the most expensive other than
non presidential and that was quickly eclipsed. Ohio was over
half a billion dollars. Half a billion dollars to absolutely
pulveright someone else's reputation that are largely not even based

(01:09:46):
in reality. Unlimited money is really the true cancer on
our democracy. Eliminate that, you remove a lot of the
poisonous influences, because unlimited money means unlimited venom is coming
and it's going to continue to escalate, you know, whether
it comes from podcasts, or whether it becomes TikTok, whether

(01:10:07):
it comes from Facebook, all those things. They are continuing
to find more and more ways to help break and
destroy a person based on different political views. If I
have a wish, if I could be a king, if
I could make one simple choice, I would I would
undo Citizens United, and that that's the thing that opened
up unlimited money, and that would profoundly change American politics

(01:10:30):
spontaneously if I was king. That's the simple most thing
to change American democracy is to remove remove the unlimited money.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
It sounds like this book in some ways is a
plea for us to restore our own humanity. It's your
story it's about your journey, but it's also kind of
a message to the wider population.

Speaker 2 (01:10:57):
Yeah, well, you know, I think it's been worth it
to me because I've had people reach out saying, you know,
that this conversation has saved their life or that's made
them feel better in their life where they chose to
get help, and Tavia, that's really the point of it.
And my voice and my vote is consistent to the

(01:11:17):
values that I've always had before the stroke. Now trying
to explain her, or to describe to people why I
chose to to be I mean, the media was putting
the effect of the wanted posters, you know, the eight
damns you know here it is like hanging up in
the post office kind of you know. And I know
all of them, and I know the eight ones that

(01:11:37):
did that. They are deeply honorable, patriotic people and they
happen to disagree, and that doesn't make them bad people.
And you might be disappointed, but we believe that there
was no exit ramp that wasn't going to drop our
nation into deeper, deeper kinds of chaos, especially the people
that are deeply touched by that, whether they're on snap

(01:11:58):
or they are not getting paid going on for a
month and a half. So that's been that's been my message.
And having them all converge at the exact same time.
That's where I am. And I am grateful to be
able to have this conversation. And yeah, I don't want
to dwell in that, but I just what I've learned
is that I can only emerge as profoundly grateful.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
Well, John Fetterman, you've been so generous with your time.
Thank you for having this long conversation with me. The
book is called Unfettered, and I think it will help
a lot of people, and as you said, it already has,
so thank you for writing it and thank you for
talking with me about it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:39):
No, thank you for spending you were very generous with
your time. I dedicated the book to those people in
that struggle, people in the throes of depression that are
considering it, and I beg people to not make the
one mistake you can't come back from. So thank you
for allowing me to have this conversation on your platform.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
Absolutely, you're welcome. Thank you, Senator. I'll let you get
back to all the stuff you have to do. The
vote happened right now, we're waiting for the House.

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
Uh correct, Yeah, Uh, there's a statutorial where the earliest
time they can do that is tomorrow night. And to
be clear, it is not guaranteed, it is not it
is not h We are not living in normal times,
we all agree, and something very very abnormal could happen.
And one of the things abnormal was this solution that

(01:13:29):
came up. You know, I didn't know that I found
out that, Hey, something reached. I assumed. I assumed this
was the recess. I mean, you know, you know, technically
we shouldn't even be here, but here we are. Because
so I wish, I wish that that the solution sticks.
But if it doesn't, but I'd like to remind everybody
everyone that's listening that was as angry or disappointed that

(01:13:52):
we reopened the government, we will have the same opportunity
to do this in January. So it's a long slow
We're not even to the first year of the Trump
presidency and that's four years. So that's why I'm begging
people that it's like, we have to find a way
forward and the election. The election is coming in less

(01:14:13):
than a year, and that's where we are, and that's
where my values and voice will remain.

Speaker 1 (01:14:21):
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would
love to hear from you. Next Question is a production
of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

(01:14:42):
Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,
and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian
Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,
go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

(01:15:03):
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(01:15:24):
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