The MeidasTouch Network vs. the Right-Wing Media Machine

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
We just want people to you know, live their lives
and be happy and be able to enjoy it without
some you know, lunatic screaming in their face every three seconds.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
We should be focusing on the issues that actually occupy
a lot of the mental space in Americans' minds, that
are filled with conspiracies, and we should fill it with
the truth and solutions.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
As we built Midas Touched, that community aspect was almost
more important than us saying you know, here are our
political beliefs and here are these political stances, but more like, hey,
don't y'all want things to be normal?

Speaker 4 (00:35):
Hi? Everyone, I'm Kittie Couric, and this is next question.
It's no secret that one of the things that propelled
Donald Trump to victory in the last election was right
wing media, a potent combination of conservative cable podcasts and
social media influencers. Now progressive voices are trying to make

(00:57):
sure that their footprint is as powerful and as big.
The Micellas brothers have created The Midas Touch, one of
the few digital networks. Yes, they considered themselves a network
to crack the code, gaining millions of followers and even
beating Joe Rogan for the number one spot on Apple

(01:18):
Podcasts a few months back, So I'm really excited to
talk to them about what they're doing and how they're
doing it. First of all, hello guys, welcome to next question.
Thank you so much. An exclusive, the first time the
three of you have done an in person interview together,
right first, that early first Wow, I'm very honored and

(01:39):
very flattered, and I wanted to ask a little bit
about your life story. You all grew up on Long Island,
you all had your own respective careers. Ben, What were
you doing before you decided to embark on this venture.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Well, I was a lawyer. I went to law school
at Georgetown Law was a civil rights lawyer, and I
was working civil rights cases out in the Bakersfield, Fresno area,
representing families who lost loved ones in police brutality cases.

Speaker 4 (02:11):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
So it was through that work that I.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Ended up meeting Colin Kaepernick, and Colin Kaepernick took a
knee for police brutality to bring attention to it, and
then from there the pandemic happened and the Minus Touch
network kind of sprung out of it. But my background
was a lawyer. I think my parents were surprised when
I went into podcasting.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
But I.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
Think they're happy within them.

Speaker 4 (02:34):
I'm sure they are. How about you, Brett, what were
you doing?

Speaker 3 (02:36):
I was a film and TV so I moved out
to Los Angeles to go to USC and I was
in film school there and then I graduated freelance for
a bid, ended up working for the Ellen Degenero Show
as an editor there, ran the digital department, post production
team over there. I had a great experience. Ended up
working for as a creative executive in film and television
after that, and then the pandemic hit. Production quickly shut

(02:59):
down and we started this project and the rest is history.

Speaker 4 (03:03):
Well, you guys were really early adapters for like digital content.
I remember doing such an incredible job, so you knew, gosh,
a lot of people aren't watching the show at home.
We are going to make sure that everyone sees it online.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
And I got to give them a lot of credit.
On the producers, there are a lot of credit. They
saw that incredibly early on. And what ended up happening
was when I got there, there was a team of
like five people. I was the new guy. There was like,
you know, four or five other people. By the time
I left there, you know, we had a team of
I don't know if you include you know, kind of
other staff kind of associated with it, probably more like
eighty people there. And so I saw this entire division

(03:39):
of Digital blossom and I got to be there while
it happened. And I never thought that editing and helping
to create videos that maybe about human interest stories and
cat videos and whatever we were doing there would end
up apply to making political videos. But somehow I think
it ended up being a great education actually and doing that.

Speaker 4 (03:55):
So I'm sure it did. Meanwhile, the baby, Geordy, tell
me what you were up before you got involved in this.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Marketing and advertising. Actually, right here in New York, heart
of Times Square, this agency called Translation Incredible Agency. I
like to say that they gave me my PhD in
New age marketing. It was really awesome. It was a
nimble operation over there. I think they had less than
maybe eighty to one hundred employees when I was there,
and so you got to wear a lot of different hats,
so from the creative department to strategy to account management,

(04:24):
just kind of seeing campaigns, taking them from the earliest
stages of development and seeing the whole execution all the
way through. It was really really cool and seeing how
they kind of used new age tech and social media
to really emphasize and reach their audience in different ways.
It was eye opening at the time.

Speaker 4 (04:41):
So your skill sets really complement each other. You all
bring something different to the table. And so it's the pandemic.
You all are getting increasingly frustrated by what you're watching unfold,
to say the least. And Ben, what was your aha moment,
like we have to do more? And how did you
all come together and say let's launch this new venture.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, you heard our backgrounds. We're not political people missing
from those backgrounds with stories of working in politics. We're
just people who were scared during the pandemic. We were nervous,
we were worried about our families, we were worried about
our friends, and we were sending each other text messages
about what we were going through, and so we said,

(05:27):
how do we translate those messages into you know, we
almost felt selfish if we didn't bring what we were
talking about to the public. So we just started saying,
what if we wrote about this, What if we started
a blog, What if we use bread skills who could
do videos and editing? What if we use Geordie's marketing
skills and just start telling people, here's what we're feeling,

(05:48):
here's what we're experiencing. You're not alone, we're a family,
and here's what we're trying to do to help each other.
So we start releasing a article, a video that Brett
edits Geordie helps coming up with some of the framing
of it with his marketing skills, and it seemed to
resonate because nobody had really seen a focus on these

(06:11):
topics that really focused on the human experience as opposed
to just kind of an overtly political side to it.
So people had this kind of aha, like I feel
that way too, And once we started seeing that, the
shock to us was like, wait a minute, no one
else is really talking like that and connecting in that way.

(06:32):
And so we did it again and again and again,
and from there it just kind of kept on growing.
You know, a video did one hundred thousand views, then
a million views, then five million views, and from there
it kind of sprung up and a community started developing
around it, and the months progressed and we started seeing
that this was actually having a real impact.

Speaker 4 (06:51):
And then you sort of broadened your aperture if you will,
and kind of started focusing on all kinds of things,
not just obviously the COVID and the or misinformation or
how you were feeling and what was upsetting you, but
the political spectrum in general, right, Brett.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
Yeah, no, one hundred percent. You know, I think we
just you know, we were trying to share our lived
experience with everybody out there, and so when we saw
something was that we thought was crazy, we would just
be like, this, isn't this crazy? Everybody what we're watching together?
Like is it just us? And like I think for
a while we were all just looking at each other
like I don't understand, Like why is this being treated

(07:28):
like this is normal? Especially was during the time when
you know, Trump was saying this fifteen cases going down
to zero, It's never going to come to our short
it was just lie after lie after lie, and I
was like we were all like, you know, this is
going to be bad, right this is and then we
just kept seeing, you know, all the kind of political
ramifications stem from there. I think that was a very
kind of pivotal moment in shaping people's beliefs. And in

(07:50):
addition to just COVID, I think a lot of people
at that point were sort of being siloed into different
kind of groups at that point, and there was a
deep division that was kind of being put into our society,
and people were kind of falling.

Speaker 4 (08:04):
Into force by their own self selection are algorithmically reinforve and.

Speaker 3 (08:09):
The fact that everybody was home and everybody was not
speaking with each other. And so as we develop mad
to people were mad for all different reasons. I mean people,
some people were mad that they had to you know,
be home. Some people were mad that, you know, why
isn't this Why don't they just take the vaccine? Why
don't they respect my space? People were all mad at
each other for all different reasons, and so there were

(08:30):
these communities developing, and so community became an essential aspect
to us, more so than the politics of are you
able to kind of assemble a community that's based around
kind of positivity and wanting to do the right thing
rather than a lot of these sort of more malicious
online communities that exist out there that seek to kind
of sew division and hatred. And during that time there

(08:51):
was definitely, you know a lot of that, and so
as we built kind of might as touched the community
aspect was almost more important than us saying you know,
here are political beliefs, and here are these political stances,
but more like, hey, don't you all want things to
be normal? Like can't we see that this stuff is
freaking nuts? And like if we could all just rally
around that, like maybe we could actually put those political

(09:12):
differences aside in many ways. And so as we progressed,
one of the things that we saw was that, you know,
there were folks who may consider themselves, you know, as
liberal as could be, joining us. Then there were folks
who consider themselves Republicans or former Republicans who were joining
us independence. Like we saw, you know, people coming to
us for all sorts of reasons. But at the end

(09:33):
of the day, I think the core was people just
wanting things to be like normal again, right, understanding that
what we're seeing then, and by the way, what we're
still seeing now is not normal.

Speaker 4 (09:43):
I was going to say, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say,
and you can correct me if you disagree that your
content exudes positivity at this moment in time. And I
feel like you have gone through various iterations, Jeordi. During
the Biden administration, were you guys a little more dormant.
There were fewer things for people of a certain political persuasion,

(10:07):
I think, to be outraged about. So did your growth
really explode after the election of Donald Trump the second time?

Speaker 1 (10:17):
No, I would say we saw our strongest growth period
when President Biden was president. During that era. I think
it's a slight misconception about what we do that you know,
maybe like like just angry you know, out the world
or or anything like that. We really just try and
bring folks facts and data, and it's sort of that
approach that has led the community to grow. When you
watch our videos, for example, you know Ben will say

(10:40):
a couple of sentences, We'll just say play the clip,
because playing the clip many times is way more effective
than Ben explaining every little slight detail and maybe even
giving his opinion in that second. If people are just
take away the receipts from the videos and we let
them form their own opinion, that's where we've genuinely seen
the most growth of the network and of the community,
because it's to really the values that we care about.

(11:02):
We just want things to be normal. We just want
people to you know, live their lives and be happy
and be able to enjoy it without some you know,
lunatic screaming in their face every three seconds. And so
I think we've seen tremendous growth during the Biden administration,
and we continue to see growth right now as well.
But again, I think people are always coming to us
for the facts and for the data, and that's what

(11:24):
it's allowed.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
To grow, I think, cause we've been there now for
about five years. A lot of people shut off after
the last election, and they were looking for fighters, and
they were looking for people to stand up to them.
And I hope we've always been authentic to those same
values when we just started this out in twenty twenty
as what we're doing now, so as we were out

(11:45):
there still fighting, and I think people a group of
people lost a lot of hope after this election, so
they turned and they saw what we were doing, and
I think that also helped give them hope, which allowed
a lot more people to maybe notice what we were
doing now. And also we were doing things on the
digital realm that a lot of people are adopting now

(12:08):
right in our YouTube strategy, our focus on simulcasting videos
and audio was just a different way to even kind
of approach this space, which also I think has been
a bit kind of pioneering, and we could talk about
that later, but that's part of I think where we're
seeing and we're humble and grateful for it. But some
of the recognition is, oh, lots of people didn't even

(12:30):
know what we were talking about, and we were saying
simulcast right a year ago or more. And now that's
the you know, the new lingo.

Speaker 4 (12:39):
You know, if a Martian landed on Earth and you
had to explain to him or her what the Midas
Touch Network is in you know, an elevator pitch, how
would you do it? Who wants to take that?

Speaker 2 (12:53):
I mean, I mean, I think it's a podcast that's
fueled by a community, and the community.

Speaker 4 (12:58):
It's not just a pot well podcast, I guess, as
we know are video and audio, but it's sort of
you're doing everything everywhere all at once. Right but sorry
the Martian interrupted, you go on.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
You know it's it's it's the community is built on
you know, I think, core values and principles and that's
what's the success. And what we're trying to readjust everybody
to remember is that politicans, the Martians going to I
may have lost the Martian elevator speech, but I'll give

(13:31):
you my academic speech for the market. I'm assuming the
Martians mar well leg well educated mar mars exactly. But
but I think politics has been gamified into your this team,
you're that team. You're angry, you're angry, yell at each other,

(13:53):
and the viewers left a little bit confused, Wait, what's
what's even the issue? And they try to pick what
team do I like based on the style of the
fight and the style of the debate and who's winning
that fight. And that's the split screen cable news yell, yell, yale.
So we try to deconstruct that, and we come with
an opinion and a strong opinion, but we try to

(14:14):
root it in a trial lawyer approach. Here's the evidence,
here's the exhibit, here's why we feel this way. Agree
with us, don't agree with us, but here's here's what
we're grounded in. And so rather than have a four
minute segment of yelling with thirty seconds of the actual news,
we try to root it in eleven to thirteen minutes
of the facts with opinion.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
But it's the facts that drive it.

Speaker 4 (14:38):
What I would say to the Martian, I would say that,
but Also, one of the things I think you all
do so effectively is connect the dots in this crazy,
fragmented media landscape, you know, with so much happening, particularly
in the early days of the second Trump administration. I
think what you do so artfully is is you kind

(15:00):
of connect, you know, you thread all these things. If
an expert saying this, and then Caroline Levitt is saying that,
and you know, you're taking all these different things and
you're kind of helping people understand and aggregate what all
these these moments mean.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Is that that's why you're Katie Kirk no part of
your yes.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
You know. It's funny because we were speaking about this.
I think, like just yesterday that there's so much noise
out there, and you I think we all thought, you know,
if we went back I don't know even ten years ago,
but probably more than that, probably thought, oh, with the Internet,
with digital media, with also there's going to be so
much information. People are going to be so well informed,
people are going to be smarter than ever, They're going

(15:48):
to be on top of everything. It's going to be
so clear to know what's true and what's fiction. It's
clearly like the opposite at this point of what we're seeing.
There's such a deluge of information coming at people every
single day. So I think one of the things that
we do try to do is what you just hit at,
which is how do we cut through that noise with
a message that's clear, that could resonate, that gets the

(16:09):
truth across in the midst of just all of this
chaos that's coming every single day. Certainly that's been ramped
up since Trump's second administration, where I think part of
their strategy is also to flood the zone. I mean,
you think back to what's yeah, you think back to
what Bannon said in twenty sixteen or whenever he made
that statement, flood the zone with shit. I don't know
if I'm lent.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
To say that.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
Weak here, and and that's definitely been their strategy this
time around as well. Just do so much that it's
almost impossible for you know, an average person to try
to keep up with it. But we that's one of
the things we try to do is really center the
conversation on you know, these are the distractions, these are
the important issues, These are the things that are actually
going to affect you know, you your family, you know,

(16:53):
your friends, your coworkers.

Speaker 4 (16:55):
These are these things you really need to understand. Yeah,
for sure, and I think it You're right. I mean,
a combination of things is making it so difficult to
stay informed. And a story that happened four days ago,
the country has moved on and it's like, hey, whatever
happened to the Associated Press getting kicked out of the

(17:15):
White House press room? And you know what about all
these right wing media influencers who are now taking over
seats that once belong to legacy media? Would you describe
yourselves as journalists, curators, producers or do you think there
isn't really a category for what you do? Jordy, you're smiling,

(17:37):
Go ahead, you.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
Know, I've never thought of it like that. I view
as as concerned citizens first and foremost, we just.

Speaker 4 (17:45):
Want to they're building a media impure.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
Well, the funny thing about that is a journy. I
don't mean to no go for it. When we do interview.

Speaker 2 (17:53):
We don't do a lot of interviews about ourselves, so
we're actually not that and I mean this sincerely reflective
on like who we are because we center the network
around the community and around the message to the people,
so it is always you know, interesting sometimes, you know,
and lately we don't do a lot of interviews, but

(18:14):
sometimes when we're reflecting on like who we are and
what does it mean?

Speaker 4 (18:19):
But maybe just think about instead of you guys like
as brothers, sort of who is the Midas Network, right,
you know, And I guess it's a lot of things, right,
and it's.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Most importantly it's been built on the community of people
in America and frankly people around the world who are
concerned about the human condition and experience. That's how I
would say it, very you know, very succinctly. But I
think we are a media network. We run a media
network filled with some of the best reporters out there.

(18:51):
We have a great editorial team that breaks stories. You know,
I consider what I do on a day to day basis.
I'm reporting on the news, we break exclusives, we report
on news that happens, and you know, we try to
contextualize everything.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
Right as best we can. That's all.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
You know.

Speaker 4 (19:07):
I'm wondering, could you do what you do without legacy media?
In other words, I know you use a lot of
clips from MSNBC or Fox or CNN, you use reporting,
and then I think you make it understandable. As I said,
you call from a lot of different sources and kind
of give people the big picture, at least in a

(19:27):
lot of the content I'm looking at, But the big
beef while legacy media gets trashed and everything is a
lot of these content creators and even digital media networks
could not do what they do without. You know, with
all due respect to the reporters you have, but with
this vast array of legacy media organizations that are covering

(19:51):
the world to are interviewing Scot Galloway on CNN or
doing something else with some other expert from you might
run a CLI. So I'm just curious how you feel
about that. If legacy media poof went away, I don't
think you could do what you're doing.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
I don't know. I mean I think that I think
that a lot of the things that we find are
on social media.

Speaker 4 (20:15):
It's what right our hearings on Capitol Hill. I was
thinking about that.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
No, so I would say there's maybe five to seven
percent of what we do is maybe commenting on an
interview that's on a cable news legacy news network. But
I don't think that drives the network even a small fraction.
I mean, the majority of it is people are out
there saying things either on social media on their own tiktoks,

(20:42):
on their own instagrams, on their own x accounts, or whatever, or.

Speaker 4 (20:47):
People are saying things on Capitol Hill like Marjorie Taylor
Green claiming that guy was flipping the bird. Did you
you guys, I'm sure did a story.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
Yeah, oh yeah, we did that. The deceptive photo where
Represent Stansbury ended up showing the actual photo and then
who was holding it up It.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
Was Marjorie Taylor Green had the big poster board of
the head of USA Fencing. Why they brought a USA
Fencing even though they received no federal funding is because
there was a Fox story saying that there was a
trendgender fencer. So the whole conspiracy is is that they
wanted to punch down on a marginalized community using the

(21:28):
fencing guy. So they showed a photo of the head
of USA Fencing in a doge committee and he had
a peace sign or he had two fingers up, and
they edited out to look like he was giving the
camera the middle finger, and they said, look, he's giving
you all the middle finger. And then Congresswoman Stansbury said, no,
let me show you what the photo is. You know,
it's a it's actually a peace sign.

Speaker 4 (21:50):
That was so crazy, remember, and Marjorie Taylor Green just hitting.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
In the cavel. See.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
But that's the kind of thing like to me, I
don't care what your politics are, like, that's not okay,
you know, and we should all be able to acknowledge
that that's not okay at the end of the day,
to do that kind of deception and to try to
punch down at people like that. And so I think
that's at the heart of, you know, a lot of
what we're trying to get across here. But you know,
I think one of the other great examples too, And
you know, I think legacy media certainly plays, you know,

(22:18):
a tremendous role. And I think there's some you know,
excellent reporters out there who do a really, you know,
terrific job, and I you know, I commend their work,
you know, especially the reporters who are out there in
these war zones and reporting on these international stories. You know,
I have so much respect for the stuff they do.
But I will say also, you know, the a lot
of the bread and butter of what we've done, especially
throughout the past few years also is looking to like

(22:39):
the first hand documentation ourselves. And so I think one
of the great examples and of one of the reasons
I think Ben is so good at what he does
is with his you know, background as an attorney. One
of the things that we do is we'll go through
court filings, for example, and so during all the various
court cases over the past few years, and even everything
that's happening in the courts right now, because you know,
there's a whole lot of legal stuff happening right now

(23:01):
in the various score Oh yeah, we started a whole
new well channel, the Legal af Channel, because we had
so many legal stories, right and so so we have
a whole channel now specifically dedicated to the legal But
on those the attorneys are going through these source documents,
the court filings. You know this judge said this, Their
argument is this, they're analyzing it. And so I think

(23:22):
that is at the heart of it. And I think
one of the things our format allows us to do
that may not be as conducive to a twenty four
hour news format or a kind of a TV news
format is we could go there and we could sit
there and we could say, pull up the filing, and
we could read an eight page filing and our audience
likes that. It probably doesn't make good TV, yeah, but
our audience likes us going through. Okay, now, let's look

(23:44):
at the footnote on page three, and let's go to
the paragraph on page and they likely turn the channel
at that point. But our audience, you know, likes that
because they like seeing what's actually being said. And I
think sometimes it's the most revealing rather than you know,
you hearing what I have to say about this topic.
Let me tell you what the judge actually said here,
let me tell you what there, what the Trump Administration's

(24:06):
argument actually is here, and then you be the judge
of what the truth is. Hi.

Speaker 4 (24:22):
Everyone, it's Katie Curic. You know I'm always on the
go between running my media company, hosting my podcast, and
of course covering the news. And I know that to
keep doing what I love, I need to start caring
for what gets me there, my feet. That's why I
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(24:43):
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book your own free personalized fitting. So fair enough, you

(25:15):
guys do a ton of original reporting, and not just
on clips that you see on cable news. In fact,
I thought it was funny. I know that you hired
this guy and he is sort of like, how can
I explain him? He's sort of like the tru yes,
the truffle sniffy dog who can figure out, like what
is going to be the big story and kind of

(25:35):
does clip. And I read one of you said something
like he's so undervalued as the best cable news producer's
business because in a way, you all are setting the
agenda for at least more progressive cable news networks, and
I would imagine even more conservative ones that are often
reacting to more progressive ones. Right.

Speaker 3 (25:57):
Well, one of the things that we notice, and it's
a funny thing to see is that you know Ason,
who's one of the most brilliant people on the planet.

Speaker 4 (26:04):
I might have to hire.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
He truly is a savant when you see what he
does with like the eight screens and he sits there
for like eighteen hours a day like it's real.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
And let me just say, he's ours. You can't have it.
But he goes, he goes through, you know, the clips
all day long, and you know he's got an eye
for it, and I think it's something you do need
an eye for, right, what out of all the things
that are said during these congressional hearings, for example, or
on the floor of the house, whatever it is on
cable news, there's a lot of stuff that isn't newsworthy,

(26:37):
that isn't exciting, but for you to be able to capture, contextualize,
and ninety nine percent of the time he's literally just
putting the captions of what people are saying when he
puts out these clips. But to pick those moments that
are the moments that you know, he knows will be
important for people to see. I think that's a real
skill and a real talent. And one of the interesting
things that we see is he'll do that throughout the
day and then coincidentally, you know on the Shepherd.

Speaker 4 (27:01):
Talking about yeah, you go another lawyer.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
Right, whether it's MSNBC or Fox, you know, they're playing
those same clips. They have a different perspective on the clips.
But but they're playing those same clips that Asen pulled
earlier in the day. I don't think that's any accident.
I think, you know, that's just how people are consuming media,
right and it's not just us, but it's a cable
news producers as well are seeing what happens in Congress.

(27:25):
Not because you know, these hosts are sitting there watching
hear you know, the hearings all day, but because they
see what people are speaking about online, and oftentimes that originates.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
With our team.

Speaker 4 (27:35):
So interesting you talk about your values. You know, you
describe the trans community as a marginalized community. I couldn't
agree with you more. I think our values are probably aligned.
But clearly you guys are left of center. Is that fair?

Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, you know, it's funny. I just I think that's
certainly fair, you know, in the kind of traditional political space.

Speaker 4 (27:55):
I mean, if you're thinking about issues that you all
care about, believe in, maybe describe some of those issues
like and we all.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
Grew up you know, not that we grew up, you know,
we didn't growup political, but we're all you know, Democrats,
and we all have you know, had, you know, beliefs
that go in that, but we don't we really don't
view everything like through necessarily a political end. Like in
that way, we don't necessarily view ourselves as like like
I don't care what the Democratic Party does, you know,
I don't care about their internal squabbling. I don't care,

(28:23):
you know. Like, to me, we're just doing our thing,
and if we have our values and if people want
to meet us at our values, that's kind of all
we care about.

Speaker 4 (28:31):
So are your values?

Speaker 2 (28:32):
Look, I think people should get for a hard day's
work or just working. They should get paid with dignity.
I think Americans should be able to be able to
afford homes. I don't believe Americans should be living paycheck
to paycheck if they're working. I think that's a form
of psychological torture. I believe that Americans should all have
access to healthcare. It should be very affordable or free

(28:55):
for Americans. I believe Americans should have access to education,
which should be affordable or free to Americans.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
I believe in equality.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
I don't believe that marginalized community should have to wake
up and be scared how they're going to be treated
in a given day. I don't believe that people should
be bullying marginalized communities. I believe diversity and equality is
a strength, and equity is a strength, and I don't
think that the lesson from this past election should be
running away from that. It should be standing up for

(29:25):
it and being strong and standing up for it and
showing actual convictions. I think a lot of marginalized communities
see fair weather supporters who are with them when it
seems cool and then abandon them when the seasons change,
and I think they see that a lot in how
the media portrays them, how corporations portray them. Oh, everyone's
with DEI now, and everyone's not with DEI now.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
I think that's bullshit.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
I think you've got to stand with people and be
who you are, and that's ultimately is the right thing
to do. But I think that's also what ultimately will
win elections too, because if your really care, if you're
really fighting for people, they'll recognize that. And I think
when they see that you're waivering, they don't even know
if you're a real ally or not an ally.

Speaker 4 (30:10):
And I imagine working with and representing Colin Kaepernick was
very transformative. Maybe not transformative, maybe that's not the right word.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
For sure, it was.

Speaker 4 (30:20):
It was in terms of how you view things like
Black Lives Matter and some of the things that Colin did,
and as we were talking about racial equality and DEI
issues and gosh, we've seen so much of that progress reversed.
How do you feel about reproductive rights?

Speaker 2 (30:40):
Well, it's the first Colin Oh yeah, yeah. On the
Colin side, nobody wanted to work with us at first.
When I started representing Colin. Remember that Colin was one
of the first people, if not the first person Trump targeted.
Get that sob off the field. Colin lost his job.
No one would do deals with us, no one did
business with us, and Colin and I were working together.

(31:01):
Then then all of a sudden, everybody wanted to work
with us because Colin fought people perceived what everything was.
As Colin won, he stood up, everybody was with us.
And then people leave and then they're no longer. Oh
we can't do you know, all these corporations, all these groups, everybody.

Speaker 4 (31:21):
Who wanted to invest in and get scared right, and
they they.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
Were all talking about diversity Initiative, Chief, diversity off, you know,
all those things. Then they get rid of them. So
if you look at that, you think.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
Who has my back?

Speaker 2 (31:38):
And I think you need to as a leader, setting aside,
are you center left, are you left left or you
left left left? You just as a leader have to
say I have your back, and I've always had your back.
I'm the person who was marching with you in Bakersfield
on the streets, whether you were a Democrat or Republican,
if you lost a loved one, I was with you,

(31:59):
and I was fighting for you. And I'm the civil
rights lawyer who was fighting for you. I was the
person there. We we have your back, and I think
that authenticity is what's most important beyond you know, how
do you describe yourself as it relates to reproductive rights.
We feel strongly that reproductive rights it's a woman's decision.
We as men get the hell out of it. It's

(32:21):
it's it's not for me to even think for a
moment that I should be in any way controlling, lecturing, talking,
having anything at all to intrude in the conversation you
know here, you know, And so for us women's reproductive rights,
that is sacro saying to the women men stay the

(32:43):
hell out.

Speaker 4 (32:44):
So you, I think, are anesthetical to the current sort
of right wing media ecosystem. And I want to read
a quote from this guy named Michael Tamaski, who is
the editor of The New Republic. I interviewed him a
few days after the election and I asked him about
his essay about why Trump won and when exploring why

(33:07):
he did, Tamaski wrote, the answer is the right wing
media today. The right wing media Fox News and the
entire News Corp, Newsmax one American news network, the Sinclair
Network of radio and TV stations, and newspapers. iHeartMedia, not
all of iHeartMedia, normally Lyricy and the Bot Radio Network,
Christian Radio, Elon, musk X, the Huge podcast like Joe

(33:30):
Rogan's much More sets the news agenda in this country.
He repeated that in the next paragraph sets the news
agenda in this country, and they fed their audience as
a diet of slanted and distorted information that made it
possible for Trump to win. Before I ask you about
how this informed your decision to move forward with the

(33:51):
Midas Network, I'd love to hear your take on why
you think, and maybe Jordi, as a marketing person, you
have something interesting to say about this. Why has right
wing media been so incredibly effective?

Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yep? I think when you go down that list, the
Fox News is the Rogans, and you keep going down
and down to.

Speaker 4 (34:12):
The so called manosphere and all those things.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
Right, there's one thing that that's really standing out to
me every time you go down through one of those
lists is who they're funded by. Billion like these billionaire
billionaire Elon Musk billionaire, Fox News, Murdoch billionaire. You go
into the Rogan sphere. I don't know his whatnot, but
but it's it's heavy funding, heavy funding and influence that

(34:35):
then just trickles down into that quote unquote manosphere. And
so once you get hit with you know, the Fox
News clips, it's an ecosystem that all feeds into itself
and then the algorithm takes it on your social network,
so you really can't escape it. Like it's it's consuming
in such a way that it's almost unavoidable.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
People are suffering. People feel pained right now, and people
want answers about why they feel pain. They can't afford
a home, and they're seeing rich people with ten jets
and mansions and they can't afford a home. They don't

(35:15):
know if they're going to be able to We have
to listen to people and what they're saying democrats, People
listen to what people are actually saying to you. People
are suffering out there, and I think that they're getting
easy answers from right wing media about where they're suffering
is coming from. They're being told the immigrants are doing

(35:38):
it to you. They're eating your cats and your dogs,
and that sounds stupid to a lot of people. The
people want an easy answer about why they're feeling pain.
And when you can blame a marginalized community as they're
doing it, they're doing it. And then somebody comes in
and says, I'm going.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
To make you rich.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
I'm going to make you the richest person ever, just
like me. You're going to be so rich you're not
even going to know what to do with how rich
you are. That message resonates with people who are suffering.
It's built on fraud, but you combine the lies with
a right wing media network giving you a simple answer,

(36:21):
and that connects with people. Now, how do you combat it.
You have to combat it by pointing out that that's
a lie and that's a fraud. But you also have
to provide solutions, and you have to speak to people's
real human condition. You have to look somebody in the eye,

(36:41):
and you have to say to them, I hear you,
I listen to you, I understand what you're going through.
And that's what we could talk about the podcast Bros.
The media ecosystem, but ultimately whether this massive funding machine
they're pumping easy and by scapegoating the other and making

(37:02):
people understand, oh, that's why I'm going through this, and
that's not why they're going through this. They're going through
this because people like Trump and other people are the
ones doing it to them, inflicting that's what's causing it.
And they've managed to the people who are causing it,
has managed to convince the people they're inflicting the pain
on that they're helping them and they're not. And so

(37:25):
the antidote to that is also simple messages.

Speaker 4 (37:30):
All saying messaging is so important. It hasn't it been,
because it seems to me there is sort of an
orchestrated effort to keep it simple but also to have
it kind of almost echoing throughout the whole ecosystem right
in a way that is just much more effective.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
You know.

Speaker 4 (37:51):
I think also people think that people are paying attention
to every little thing and they're just hearing sort of
this orchestrated effort. I'm not really making sense right now,
but I think like a lot most people aren't like us,
like reading everything, or like your guy who's watching.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
The By the way, it is coordinated. And you know
those people you mentioned, they do work together, you know.
I'm sure and I've seen certain the evidence of it.
There's been stories about it as well that there are
signal chats and I message chats and various things.

Speaker 4 (38:26):
This is what we're going to be, is what we're
going to talk about. The Rocket Ales used to do
that every morning off Fox News and they all distribute
a memo with talking points that every anchor had to
adhere to.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
One of the things that we noticed early on, and
I feel like we were written off for it a
lot is that those conversations were starting on the Internet
and they would then permeate to legacy media. They would
then get to people's Facebook feeds. They would then get
into the conversations that people are having with one another.
But you wonder, where does this cats and dogs room,
or where does that even begin from? And you could

(38:59):
trace stuff like that back to an Internet post, back
to a tweet that went viral that people spoke about
and so oftentimes, because everything is so fragmented right now,
you don't actually know where that information even started from,
what was the kind of match that ignited it. But
oftentimes these conversations are beginning in these spaces and then
they kind of become more mainstream and in many cases

(39:22):
now make their way to the President of the United States,
who lives in these spaces as well. But I think,
you know, I think it's a bit nefarious kind of
how it operates in a way, and I think folks
have learned, in my opinion, a lot of the wrong
lessons from the election. And by nefarious, I mean I

(39:44):
think people think like these people were created in a lab,
that you know, the MANI Sphere podcast, that these people
were created in a lab designed to spread propaganda and
spread certain lives. But to me, that's not what it is.
I think these a lot of these shows did begin
organically and they had audiences, and they connected with people

(40:05):
through typical you know, life things, or whether it's you know,
ultimate fighting or or weightlifting or you know, discussing a
pop culture trial or you know whatever. It may be
something that doesn't necessarily seem political, but once they have
you in they could then use that space to send

(40:25):
people down these other rabbit holes that I think could
be you know, kind of a bit more dangerous, I
think in that way.

Speaker 4 (40:33):
So it's like a lifestyle podcast that sort of morphs
into people in it.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
Then they say, Okay, now that I got you, have
you considered that the vaccine might be hurt in you?
You know, like once they get hurt of yeah, have
you heard of the and and then all of a
sudden you start getting put down this path, you know.
I read an interesting article a few years ago at
this point, I think it was in the New York Times,
and it was about how the Epoch Times the Epic
Times is uh, they were.

Speaker 4 (40:59):
I was shinned up that once, and I tried to
because I always like to hear what everybody's saying and
how stories are being framed. Isn't it called epochs epocket
the yacht But anyway, it's like it's like from China
or something.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
Someone will correct me in the comments, and I was like,
oh my.

Speaker 4 (41:16):
God, these people are insane. Stop stop stop, And they
kept sending me stuff. Finally they and so.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
In this New York Times space, they analyzed how they
pulled people in with viral videos of cats and dogs,
and they would promote on Facebook videos of cute cat
videos and cute dog videos, and so they would get
people to engage with their content because they thought that
they were engaging. Oh, look at this cute cat who's
on a skateboard or you know whatever it is. Next

(41:43):
thing they know they're being pushed. You know, Fauci needs
to go to prison and on all this crazy stuff.
And it all started because they watched this video of
a dog on a rumba or something, you know. And
so that's what I mean by nefarius, that people could
get pulled in with things that seem benign or see
like they're you know, things that relate to their interests.
Next thing they know, they're taking down this algorithmic hell

(42:06):
hole and that they really can't escape from once they're in.
And so I think that's one of the kind of
dangerous spaces that we're in right now. Also, is you know,
social media is going to continue to push the at
you that you engage with and that it thinks you
want to see. And once you do a few clicks,
sometimes people get lost in these algorithms and it just

(42:26):
takes it consumes their life and they just kind of
lose a grip on, you know, a little bit of
normalcy and kind of even respect for other people humanity.
And I think that's kind of one of the dangerous.

Speaker 4 (42:39):
Elspace programs, you to have this visceral reaction to anything
that is different than your point of view. Yeah, right.
And I know that you all say the talking point
or the conventional wisdom is like the left needs a
Joe Rogan, they need their Joe Rogan. And I know
you have all said that that's the wrong way to

(43:01):
look at it. But clearly, to deal with this ecosystem
that is so powerful, different points of view or even
truth right needs to have a more potent platform. So
how do you think different views or truth and everything

(43:25):
that's going on with the Trump administration gets out there
and explain to people? And do you worry that you're
kind of preaching to the choir? I know it just
asks like twelve questions in one, but how do you
do that well?

Speaker 2 (43:38):
On the preaching to the choir? I always ask this
question when people, and I ask about Fox and I said,
do you think that Fox News is preaching to the choir?
I say, raise your hand, if you think Fox News
preaches to the choir, and usually in my group, everybody
raises their hand and says, of course, they're preaching to
a right wing choir. I go, do you think Fox

(43:58):
is one of the more powerful forces in politics in general? Okay,
so they're preaching to the choir. You don't view that
as a negative, right right? Okay, Well, what if your
choir just needs to sing louder than the other choir?
What if you just need a choir to begin with.
What if your choir doesn't believe you're a good conductor,

(44:19):
you should first be a good conductor of your own choir.
This is going back to what I said before, and
ensure that your choir knows that you're actually their conductor
and that you're fighting for your choir. So I think
that whether you want to say it is the Democrats
or whoever, I think that one of the problems has
been that the choir needed to be preached to a

(44:43):
little bit from an authentic position and saying we're here
with you, we're fighting for you, and then you can
start to build and grow because I think other people
start to see, wait a minute, that makes sense.

Speaker 4 (44:55):
Your choir needed a church to go to.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Yeah, you know, and to me when you're building, do
you want to model that on a choir built upon
values that you don't think are helpful? And this goes
to your Rogan question. I'm going to tie it all together,
you know, but you know, but do you want to
then say we should be like that? Well, you're going
to start losing people in your choir if you're saying

(45:20):
I want to start acting that way, because then they're
going to go, WHOA, what do you mean? I don't
like the way they're treating, marginalizing. I don't like the
way they're bullying. I don't like the way that they're
making a mockery of women.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
I don't like that.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
So why do you want to be like that? Huh?

Speaker 3 (45:38):
No?

Speaker 2 (45:38):
I think that they just want to see you say
this is what I believe in. I give you an example.
Andy Basheer, governor of Kentucky, got.

Speaker 4 (45:46):
Reviewed him on Friday. Oh my god, he is I mean,
talk about wholesome at all Americas. It's like out of
central casts like Andy Basheer.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Rush Chairman, Democratic governor.

Speaker 4 (46:01):
Sixty eight percent approvement right in sixty in Kentucky.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
He doesn't say I'm not for LGBTQ, right, he says
the opposite. He vetoes any bill that comes his way
that's anti LGBTQ, and he's then he does a press
conference and he'll say, this is why I'm vetoing it.
We need to treat all human beings with respect. And
they respect him in Kentucky for doing that. So to me,

(46:26):
if he can do that in Kentucky, we should be
able to do that everywhere else. And to me, that's
a great example. I was so impressed in the interview
I did with him where he conveyed, you know, that
message to me. So there's that, and then there's what
Senator Bernie Sanders said to me, which is that the
most important issues are sometimes the least discussed. And that's true.

(46:48):
You know, people aren't talking about the issues that actually
impact us the most, whether that's housing, whether that's healthcare,
whether it's education, whether it's you know, living paycheck to paycheck,
and all of these issues are not being discussed, So
we should discuss them. So to me, in terms of
building what our version of what's going on on the

(47:08):
other side should be, I think it's obvious we should
make sure our choir sings louder, and we should be
focusing on the issues and actually occupy a lot of
the mental space in Americans' minds, but are filled with conspiracies,
and we should fill it with the truth and solutions.

Speaker 4 (47:25):
And what is the reaction among say, people who are
more conservative, you know, because everyone's all over the place
and you see like working class folks who supported Donald Trump.
But if you're tackling the issues they care about, do
you find that they are gravitating towards your platform?

Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah? I mean, look or not.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
I think I'll say this, whether they're gravitating or not gravitating.
I'm confident that the views and values I stand behind them.
I stand on business and I stand behind them. And
I'm confident that that's the approach that will. You know,
I'm not trying to chase people and beg them to

(48:09):
be good people. I simply want to let them know
that here's a place where we feel very strongly about
these things. There's a massive community now with millions of
people who watch this. Join it if you want to
join it, don't join it if you don't want to
join it. But we are, we are here, and we're
standing the struggle what we believe.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
And so I don't.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
I don't it may sound I don't occupy myself so
much thinking about you know, I'm really hoping that I've
just changed, you know, mister Maga's mind and made him
into a mister Midas like I. If they want to
live in their rage algorithm, they want if they want
to live in there, Remitas mighty the best. Yeah, if

(48:52):
they want to live in their rage algorithm, then that's
where they could live, you know, but they should know
that there's other places where we're going to talk about
the issues in an impactful, logical smart way, and then
we're going to layer that with some positivity to day.

Speaker 4 (49:06):
Do you feel that this whole kind of opposite views
of you know, the Foxes of the world are in
aggregate gaining traction. You have, for example, pot Save America,
have Currenter Newsroom. You have a lot of these digital
companies networks. Honestly, I know you call yourself a network,

(49:27):
but their networks too kind of rising up and creating
a force field that is, you know, bumping up against
this other huge ecosystem.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
I just give you the data quickly, you know, from
our network three hundred and fifty million or so YouTube
views every single month.

Speaker 4 (49:48):
I'm very jealous.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
So that's more more.

Speaker 4 (49:52):
We're all like, what's going on?

Speaker 2 (49:54):
Yeah, but that's more on a day to day basis
on digital and I think we all agree things are
moving digital. So the cable news wants to go more digital.

Speaker 4 (50:04):
Right So there and there in our forever, I was like,
what is wrong with you people?

Speaker 2 (50:09):
But anyway go so on that platform, the Mightas Touched
Network on a day to day basis, and some days
Fox beats us, but on a day to day basis,
we'll get more views than Fox on YouTube and then
seeing an MSNBC and all the rest, Mightas Touch Network
will beat those. We're the fastest growing substack right now
of all substacks.

Speaker 4 (50:28):
Out there, substack after Memorial Day.

Speaker 1 (50:31):
So we should do that would be fun and we love.

Speaker 4 (50:34):
Subjects that we're all such good.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
For exactly exactly and then you know, across and then
on the podcast downloads themselves. Uh, Jordy showed me the
data today. So in the last month, the Mightas Touch
Network beat Rogan Tucker, Carlson, Candae Owens, Charlie Kirk, and
Ben Shapiro all combined for the month of for the

(50:57):
last month, they do so in terms of in terms
of growth. You know, I think that that, you know,
that shows that there is an appetite for this out there,
and I think that, you know, we got to preach
to that choir, you know, and expand it. But let's
start also with fortifying the choir and let them know

(51:18):
we care about them. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
Hi, everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've
been following me on social media, you know I love
to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of
my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen,
Lighty Hoyke, Alison Roman, and Ininagarten. So I started a
free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips and

(51:47):
kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at Katiecuric dot com slash
good Taste. That's k A T I E C O
U R I C dot com slash good Taste. I
promise your taste buds will be happy you did. I'm

(52:11):
curious because I've struggled with this as someone who you
grew up watching, I'm sure, and it started in very
traditional mainstream media now pointing out the facts and what
is really happening is automatically interpreted as being biased, right,
And of course I think there's no such thing as

(52:34):
true objectivity. But having said that, you know, I really
struggle with that, and many people say, listen, the rules
have changed. It's okay to say you support trans people.
It's okay that you say I am one hundred percent
for reproductive rights. You know, all these things that honestly,
as personally I hold dear, but professionally I've been trained

(52:58):
to not share that. I'm curious if you think sort
of old fashioned, semi objective, knowing that pure objectivity is impossible,
that kind of journalism still has a place in the culture,
or is it simply you know, the seventy five and
up people who are watching the network evening newscasts.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
Yeah, I mean, I certainly think it's still as a place.
But at the same time, I think everything is so
fragmented now that I think such a large portion of
the audience are going to places that share a point
of view. And I think, you know, I think if
we just did a report that is this happened, then
this happened, then this happened, then this happened. I mean,

(53:41):
there's there's plenty of places where people you know, could find.

Speaker 4 (53:44):
Not you know, really I mean fewer and fewer, right, right, Yeah, But.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
I think I think the key thing that we do
is connect the dots on all those things. And I
think when you're able to weave it into a story
and actually connect the dots, I think that's what people
want to be able to gain clarity on because I think,
as as we've kind of been saying, there's so much
information out there that in order to be able to
digest it and has to be presented, you know, I

(54:09):
think in many ways, you know, in certain ways just
to make it clear from even just a storytelling perspective,
so people get how how does a tariff affect you know,
their you know, their business or the price they're going
to pay for goods, you know, and how does this
affect their medication and their family? Like I think, you
just I think you need to be able to tie
it all together in a way, and whether people think

(54:31):
it's biased or not when you're speaking on those issues,
to me, I think you just need to put that
aside because now we live in a time when people
are going to comment on on everything, right, Like I said,
and people are going to comment I mispronounced something. We'll
get a comment, right, it's it's there's going to be
a comment about everything. You have to almost bake that
into what you're doing, in my opinion, and just be you,
you know, and and and and let the chips fall

(54:54):
where they may. I think the biggest thing that you
need to do, though, is be authentic, you know, to yourself.
And I think people could smell bullshit from a mile away.
And that's why I think when after the twenty twenty
four election, when there were so many I feel like
I saw so many democratic politicians and people in media
and podcasts and you name it, to all the sudden,

(55:14):
everything I thought they believed in and the communities that
I thought they supported, all of a sudden they seem
to be backtracking on that. Maybe we focused a little
too much on inclusivity, Maybe we focused a little too
much on reproductive rights. And when you try to kind
of shape your opinions based around public poland.

Speaker 4 (55:31):
Right and kind of like were the wind driving is
the DEI people who when it was cool, it was great,
and now they're like, what what does that stand for?

Speaker 3 (55:39):
Yeah? And so how do I trust you with anything,
and I don't. I's speaking of mister Maga, Missus Midas
whatever we were talking about before. You know, I don't
think you're gonna win. You know, the mister Maga is
not going to vote for you because you have those beliefs.
They're going to vote for the Maga guy. Okay, they're
not going to come around. They may say they respect
you more or something. You know, you're not get in

(56:00):
their vote, I assure you. And you're just alienating your choir,
as we were speaking about before, and you're angering the
people who you've built trust with because you violated that trust.
So I think right now, and I think whether you're
Miightas Touched or whether you're Joe Rogan or you name it,
I think the most important thing is that you're authentic

(56:21):
to your audience and that people trust the things that
you are saying and know where you are coming from,
and know that tomorrow, if a poll comes out that
says this big thing you've been pushing may not be
super popular right now, that you're not all of a
sudden going to just change your beliefs, you know, based
on it. And I mean that's that's my thought on that.
I think you know, one of the things I could

(56:42):
say about Donald Trump. I'm not trying to say anything
nice about the guy right now, but one of the
things I could say is I think he's pushed forward
a lot with things that are incredibly unpopular, and then
he's taken his people kind of on that journey with
him going way back. I mean, remember he was being
laughed at at these debates and the White House dinner.
I mean, everyone is making a mockery of him, but

(57:03):
he pushed forward and he tried to make the case
to bring people to his side.

Speaker 4 (57:07):
He is a marketing genius, don't you think Geordie in
a way.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
I would say he's a Ponzi schemer and a fraud.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
Yeah, a good characters.

Speaker 4 (57:20):
I mean you can think dialectically he can be all
those things, can't he.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
I mean, was Bernie made Off a good marketer?

Speaker 4 (57:27):
Well, I think he's very I think he was very
I don't think he had a public persona that was
charismatic and got people to buy what he was selling.
I mean he did have a small group, right, but
I don't know just on a well, we don't have
to get.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
I think what Bro was saying though, too about audiences
these days, and it's a marketing buzzword authenticity. I know
I used to say it a lot back in my
marketing days, but genuinely, I think people are viewing what
we're doing here at the maas Touch Network as absolutely authentic.
You know, with three brothers, we don't try and be
anything that we're not right. We rely on Ben for
the legal, Bred for the digital, and Me for the marketing,

(58:04):
and then we bring in experts in specific spaces that
could speak to issues that we're not experts in. Yeah,
and we don't pretend that we're experts in, but we
have a clear value set of you know, right or wrong.
And if those lean more democratic, well, I think that
tells you kind of where we are as a country,
as a society, and we just stand behind it wholeheartedly,
and I think people like that. I think that's what

(58:26):
folks are gravitating.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
By the way, that's not to say that your ideas
cannot evolve, that you cannot change your opinions. I think
certainly you can. And I don't think your beliefs that
you had at age eighteen have to be the beliefs
that you have at age fifty. You know, I think
that evolution is a part of life. Exploring new ideas,
engaging with them, changing your mind is a part of life.
But I think people to your point, know when you go, oh,

(58:50):
this poll came out yesterday, and all of a sudden,
I maybe I shouldn't support transgender people so much. Maybe
I shouldn't support you know, diversity, Maybe I shouldn't support
reproductive rights. People see right through that wrap, you know,
and then they go, you know, they go, this person,
you're okay, So you're just a fraud. How do I
trust that anything else you're telling me right now? How
do I know you're being honest about that? What if
tomorrow you know some other politician one that was the

(59:12):
opposite of that, and then all of a sudden you're
switching your beliefs on that too, Like how do you
trust somebody you know who's sort of a shape shifter
like that? And I think it's important to not view,
you know, as you go from election to election or
you know, issue to issue, whatever it is, that you
don't just change with the way the wind is blowing,

(59:33):
but that you are staying true through those moments, and
that you're sticking up for your beliefs cuse I think
at least you know, at least people will respect.

Speaker 4 (59:41):
You right and giving them facts and data that actually
reinforces your position. I think that's really critical. Just a
few more questions. I could talk to you guys for
hours a lot to do it over feer sometimes, please,
but I'd love to know, just sort of logistically, selfishly
a little about the secret sauce that has made you

(01:00:01):
so successful. You guys have hired a bunch of different
It's interesting. I didn't realize Michael Cohen was part of
your network, you know, the former Trump Trump lawyer, But
you have hired a lot of different people. You have correspondence,
but you also have sort of what might traditionally be
called pundits. Do you ever feel like you've got too

(01:00:21):
much content that's coming out or how do you kind
of organize what you're doing.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
So we've taken the twenty four hour cable news cycle
and we've tried to deconstruct it. So whereas a twenty
four hour cable news cycle, you'll have how many stories
in a given day, five to seven that are on
repeat every day. So we try to take those five
to seven stories that and I don't watch what cable
news is those five to seven We program it based

(01:00:47):
on what we think are the most important, say seven
to ten stories of the day, and then that becomes
basically ten to twelve YouTube videos you know, every day
from you know, and they're all.

Speaker 4 (01:00:59):
Your different contributors, right because you do some right and
do do I'll do yes, I see you too, Jordan.
Every now every now.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
More so social they do more of the long form stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
So every day we probably have about one or two
some days three live shows that last about an hour.
And so that may be the show I do with
bretton Jordy. That may be a show called Legal af
that I do with a guy named Michael Popak and
Karen Friedman Agnifolo and she was the number two DA
in the minute. These are like top Lords.

Speaker 4 (01:01:33):
I'm kidding.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
No no, no, no no.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
It means analysis friends.

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
By the way, legal analysis, analysis friends some people. It
could be a play on somebody else, but it's analysis friends.

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
Okay, get Clara out of the gutter.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
And so about ten videos to twelve videos a day
that are about ten to fifteen minutes. And let whatever
it takes to go through a court filing or to
provide all of the data where we feel that we've
covered the issue in a way that people really get.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
So we do that twelve times a day.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
Maybe there's a four am, although now that I'm on
East Coast time, it's all screwed up, But on the
West Coast it's a four or five thirty seven, you know,
and you basically go ninety minutes out and you program
it like that with two or three live shows a day,
and some days maybe on the weekend it's one live show.
And then we have our other social media built around it.
So we've got the TikTok, we've got the Instagram, We've

(01:02:32):
got all those of the Blue Sky, which our accounts
do very well on as well. And then the audio
podcast as well, has some the main brother podcast and
maybe a few selective you know, gase.

Speaker 4 (01:02:42):
Ever Sleep Yeah. And how do you how do you
make money off all this stuff? Because that has been,
of course, the big dilemma for people who have transferred
to kind of a pure digital platform. They used to
talk about analog dollars and digital pennies, so that's changed.
Just more than fifty percent of people are now getting
their using information from social media. But what is your

(01:03:05):
financial model.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
I think it's still analog dollars digital pennies, although the
analog dollars right are getting a little bit less and
the digital pennies are getting more, which is a good thing.
I just spoke recently at a panel and I said,
one of the most important things I think to monetizing
it is you don't go in it to monetizing And

(01:03:26):
I mean truly, we never went into this thinking how
do we make the biggest business decisions That naturally grew
out of building good content.

Speaker 4 (01:03:37):
And a good base and a big community.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
And then the community exactly, and the community was there
and that's what we fought for always and stood by
the community, built the community, and they built us. It's been,
you know, very mutual. And then as you grow that,
you know, then you start to get into your digital
pennies analog dollars, and you start to look at you know,
what's YouTube CPM which is a different name for it,

(01:04:03):
but what's a podcast CPM? And then what's a host
read CPM? And then you start getting into conversations that
start to not fully are but start to look similar
to the way traditional.

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
TV viewed things.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
You know, what's a CPM and here's the here's where
things are moving. I think right now, if you were
to buy and add a thirty second or sixty second
spot on a cable news network, your CPM would be
super high for thirty seconds, and you may be paying
an outrage. You know, they'll say it's a good you know,

(01:04:41):
the networks will say it makes sense, but you'll be
paying whatever X dollars for that thirty seconds. After the
show airs, no one sees the ad again, and you're
one of five ads that may be during that block
or four ads during that block, and no one ever
sees it again. And I don't know what the conversion
rate even is for you know, because it's not even
really track that way. How many people bought a car

(01:05:01):
based on.

Speaker 4 (01:05:02):
Those those vitamins that tastes like vegetables, right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
News?

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
You know, So if we're getting a million views, if
we're getting a million views, you know, on a video,
and then there's a host read you know, read and
Jordi you know, works with the with the advertisers to
make sure we're getting advertisers that kind of meet our criterion.
We're not bringing advertisers that we think are not the

(01:05:29):
right fits for us. You know, you start thinking about, well,
what does that CPM look like? And you know, I
think it's a more valuable proposition ultimately to an advertiser
down the road. And I think this is where this
is where the industry is moving. And I think, I
think this is why we see so many people looking
at a model, you know that that I think we

(01:05:51):
you know, and again there's been a lot of people
involved in this, but I think that we've helped, you know,
show that this is a viable path for one of
the first and people are seeing it and saying, oh,
got it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
I see how Midas did it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
Let me try to build a network, And that's kind
of how we, you know, how we think about things there.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
It's interesting over the past few years since we've been
doing this, we've seen a lot of companies kind of
come and go try to enter the space. And I
think the theme that I've seen and the ones that
have kind of come and gone quickly are the ones
that start with a top down approach rather than a
bottom up approach. And by that, I mean, you know,

(01:06:31):
you see this big splashy announcement so and so was
you know, the editor in chief of such and such,
You know newspaper, and now they're going to make the
digital network for the future. And they got an eighty
million dollar investment, and they're gonna open up twelve offices
around the world, and they're going to hire one hundred

(01:06:51):
and fifty staff and and anytime I see that, I'll
be I give them a year. I mean, how the
economics aren't gonna even work. I mean, the office is alone.
I'm kind of sinking, like I don't even understand how
you have.

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
Still dollar penny.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
So like to me, I'm like, I don't even know
how this is how you think this is.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
Going to work.

Speaker 4 (01:07:09):
But so how many people do you have all together
on your team?

Speaker 3 (01:07:13):
So I think one of the one of the things
that is most effective about what we've done here is
the way we've decentralized it. So, you know, I think
as far as like kind of full time staff is concerned,
you know, at this point, are probably like ten to
fifteen like full time full time, like you know. And
then in addition to that, though, we have dozens and
dozens and dozens of contributors who are also producing content

(01:07:35):
and contractors and people like that.

Speaker 4 (01:07:37):
So so it's not it's their side hustle kind of
or is it for sometributor.

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
You know, it's one of those things where you get
what you put into it. And so there are some
folks who are you know, making videos every day, doing
to a day you know, you know, are just really
crushing it and this is like become their main thing
and now their livelihood is making you know, videos for
my Touch, which I think is amazing that we're able
to to folks. And then we may have folks who

(01:08:05):
do you know, a video a month or you know,
a couple of videos a month, and you know this
will be their side thing. And so I think, you know,
I think we offer that flexibility to folks you know
who work with us kind of how much do you
want to put into it and what's kind of resonating
with folks. But you know, I think it's cool that
we've been able to build this platform from the ground
up completely independently, without a penny of outside investment money,

(01:08:27):
you know, getting us to where we are, you know
right now. And so you know, and and obviously you know,
we were certainly afforded, you know, privileges of you know,
all having jobs and being able to take this leap
that other folks aren't necessarily able to do. And I
completely acknowledge that, but I think I think it's important
that you know, you do have that kind of ground

(01:08:48):
up approach when you approach it, because when you're dealing
with when you're dealing with pennies, you can't be spending
you know, you can't be spending dollars. You need to
figure out a way to do this. And you know,
I'll also go back to our roots here. I'll take
it back to the beginning because during the pandemic, one
of the things that we noticed was everyone was recording
from their homes and so we would watch CNN, we

(01:09:09):
would watch you know, NBC, we'd watch all the networks.
Everyone's on Skype or Zoom or whatever, and so we
were like, we could do that.

Speaker 4 (01:09:16):
Yeah, we've said. We said, well, I mean it's amazing.
I mean, as somebody who you know, used to have
hair and makeup every morning or night and be on
a fancy, you know, desk with life and camera crews
and everything, and I'm like, there's something great too about
the immediacy, Like we'd have to call somebody and get
them in a car and have them come to the studio,

(01:09:37):
and there's something great about just being able to talk
to someone right away. If it's by the way, there's
a rawness to it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:43):
There's an authenticity to it also.

Speaker 4 (01:09:46):
You know scariness. There's people see me without make them.

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
I totally do not think that, but but you know,
I think though it, you know, it requires you to,
you know, think a little differently, right, You don't necessarily
you know, I know, and I think Ben knows he
doesn't have necessarily you know, a studio, music, all this
stuff lifting him up, and so he has to, you know,
in many ways focus on the content.

Speaker 4 (01:10:08):
Right, and there it's a fakiness about like good evening, yeah,
you know, and.

Speaker 3 (01:10:13):
I think people see, you know, see through a lot
of that, and so you know, I in doing it
in that way, you know, I think ultimately, like if
anyone is like watching this and like, how do I
start something like this? Like you want to make sure
your sound is good, you want to make sure people
could see, Okay, you want a good camera, good audio.
Aside from that, people are going to be actually pretty
forgiving with the rest of the stuff. And I think

(01:10:34):
in the beginning also there were so many people who
would come to us you know, I got this, I
got this great video, I got this great painting. I
just need to run it through a few weeks of
testing and then we're going to make some changes. And
then if I could just get an investor.

Speaker 4 (01:10:47):
You just do it restributor. And you know, that's the
one question I also wanted to ask you. You know,
you do it in real time, you experiment, you get
kind of the reaction. I promise, I only have business
talking to you. Guys.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
We've before you ask We've been very excited to do this.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
We're big Katie. We asked for a lot of interviews.
We don't really do it. Oh, but we're very big fans.

Speaker 4 (01:11:11):
Of you, and thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you.
That means a lot to me. But you talked about
how responsive you guys are to your community, and I'm curious.
You know, I love the interactivity. You know it's not
always fun to read because when you read a mean
comment or whatever, But tell me what that actually means
being responsive to your community. Can you give me sort

(01:11:33):
of an example of that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
I'll give you an example of the message that resonated
and how we do it. If you looked at Senator
Bernie Sanders and AOC's rallies recently where there have been
thirty thousand people in fifteen thousand. There's a part of
it where they go into the audience and they say
they ask the audience, how do you feel about this?
And then they just listen and you hear what the

(01:11:55):
people are saying. And we do something intuitively similar for
the past five years where we want to know how
they're feeling, what they're thinking about issues, and really listen
and learn from their experiences. And that's where we understand,
you know, Okay, this is what you're going through, this
is what you're going through, this is what you're experiencing.

(01:12:16):
And so we have that sense in our overall programming
where they are.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
And another what.

Speaker 4 (01:12:22):
Is it reading like their comments or is it do
you have a special site or email address where you
actually hear from people? How do you do that?

Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
It's all of the above. I mean it's reading the comments.
We hold sometimes one two times a month, we'll hold
meetings with our supporters and with the mightas Mighty as
we call them, and we'll do zoom chats and they'll
tell us how they're feeling. They'll explain to us on
our social media handles, they'll usually you know, at us

(01:12:53):
and certain things, and so it's an aggregate of all
of that and we're just constantly listening to them every day.
It's not necessary we have those meetings, but it is
kind of a constant back and forth since this started.
Just another example is when we started covering Canadian politics,
which was a big and our expansion internationally, but we

(01:13:17):
listened and listened and listened, and a lot of American
media networks supplant the Canadian experience with their American centric
views of how Canada is versus really listening to what
people in Canada are experiencing. And so before we started
doing any reporting on Canada, we had to understand the

(01:13:38):
dynamics of the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party and
the NDP and the Green Party and how things work
and what's going on with Carnie and what's going on
with Pierre Poliev and understanding you know, all of those dynamics.
And this was it was a relentless listening experience, and
then we started talking about it and then it started

(01:13:58):
connecting in Canada. So the Midas Touch Network podcast became
the most listened to podcasts in Canada about Canadian politics
and that, and what we heard from them is just
such a compliment which told us that. But the feedback
there was, it's because you're listening to us, and you
understand that when Donald Trump is making these threats against us,

(01:14:22):
it's not a joke. Nor do we view it as
a trade war. We view it as a war war.
We view that type of language the same way that
Ukraine views putin talking about denocification. Is how when he
uses language fifty first state, it's an attack on our
very existence and our sovereignty. So we want you to

(01:14:42):
understand why it is we're boycotting American products, and it's
not that we don't like Americans. It's that the leader
of your country right now is basically threatening an invasion
against us. And so when you start speaking like that,
they go, thank.

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
You, you know, they go.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
Our local media doesn't even talk about it in those terms, and.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
That's how we felt.

Speaker 4 (01:15:00):
Yeah, it's obvious that you have an audience first mentality,
and it is surprising to me, as somebody who's been
doing this a long time, how all these interactive tools
are at our fingertips and still most media organizations really
don't utilize them, not to blow my own for a nanosecond,
But when I was I wrote about this in my book.

(01:15:21):
Sorry everybody who works with me, because they've heard the
story a million times. But when I was at doing
the CBS Evening News, I was covering the golf oil spill,
and I said, what do you guys want to know
about the golf oil spill?

Speaker 3 (01:15:33):
That you know?

Speaker 4 (01:15:34):
Because I think you get in a media cycle or
a news cycle and you kind of repeat the same
thing over and over again, or you advance the story
in a small way, but you kind of miss the
forest for the tree sometimes. So I asked on Twitter
back then, you know, what are your questions about what's
going on in the golf And the people at CBS

(01:15:55):
were so unnerved by me trying to to understand what
people cared about, what they wanted to know, and what
they were thinking and what they were wondering about. But
to me, if you're serving an audience, why wouldn't you
listen to them? And I think Brett you were talking
about the top down approach and kind of serve your

(01:16:17):
audience where they are and what they want to know
instead of what you think they should be told.

Speaker 3 (01:16:24):
Right, Hey, and what either whether you're a politician or
a reporter, or you're selling tires or I don't care
what it is that you're doing, if you don't understand
what people want and what people are looking for from you,
you know, I think you're I think you're going to
miss it. And you're right. You know, now more than ever,
people are gonna let you know what they think. You know,
it's they're not shy about it. Better for better, they're

(01:16:46):
not exactly shy.

Speaker 4 (01:16:48):
I used to say, the good thing about the internet
is everyone now has a voice. The bad thing everyone
now has a voice.

Speaker 3 (01:16:56):
Yeah, So I mean people aren't shy about it, and
you know, and and people well may disagree with us
too at times, you know, but at least we know,
you know, what they're thinking, and at least they know
that we're coming from a place of like, this is
what we really believe in it, and we're not going
to b su you know, on it. And I think
that's kind of the most.

Speaker 1 (01:17:15):
Important corporate news took surgery. Yeah, I was. From my perspective,
I don't think the minus touch network exists at this
scale that it does now without our audience, without the
midas Mighty, and without that relentless relationship of listening and
feedback that we have every second of the day, we
read everything, for better.

Speaker 4 (01:17:33):
Or for worse, We read time to do it every
but I'm glad.

Speaker 1 (01:17:36):
You do because it's very important for us that we
really understand how our audience is feeling. And they were
with us five years ago when I moved back into
my mom's basement during in the lockdown. Yeah, doing it
from there to now I have a kid and I'm
living with my wife in Pittsburgh, and so they've seen
us mature in the network, mature every step of the way,

(01:17:57):
and it's really been this familial relation ship that we've
been able.

Speaker 4 (01:18:00):
To faster and the and the walls have been broken.
If you want to get smarter every morning with a
breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. I

(01:18:31):
think there still is this sort of artifice about a
lot of mainstream media and the way they communicate with people,
and obviously you all have tapped into that the a
word authenticity, which I think it's overused, but I think
it actually still holds.

Speaker 3 (01:18:47):
Yeah, it's it's one of those cliche for a reason.

Speaker 4 (01:18:50):
Yeah yeah, I mean I think that's been one of
the reasons I've been successful professionally, is I think people
think that I'm the same on cameras i am off,
which I am most of the time. You know, I'm
not fully unfiltered when I do things, and maybe I
should be a little less, you know, or more unfiltered.
But before we go, I want to we've kind of

(01:19:12):
mentioned the manosphere and young men in this country. How
old are you been? Forty forty?

Speaker 3 (01:19:18):
Well, it's about to be forty a few days your
or over over yes, overselling.

Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
I don't know when I know When's it going to air.

Speaker 4 (01:19:27):
On Thursday?

Speaker 2 (01:19:28):
So h a couple of days before?

Speaker 3 (01:19:31):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:19:32):
Old thirty five? So forty thirty five, thirty two. Tell
me about what you think is happening to younger men
in this country, both really primarily gen Z and how
they have gravitated so enthusiastically, and maybe this is not
even factually correct. I have to really check the numbers.

(01:19:56):
But to Republican, to maga politic and how well, first
of all, I want to know why you think this
has happened, And then I want to know what you
think can be done to change those dynamics.

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
I think the idea of alpha has been hijacked by
the least alpha people in the world. Okay, like a
JD Vance, we're saying all my masculinities under attack. Okay,
that's not an alpha thing to say. Like, let's be
very cliqu When when I hear stuff like that, I'm like,
what are you your masculinity? This is what you think
about that your masculinity is under attack? What the hell

(01:20:30):
are you talking about? You know, all of this like
you know, whining that I hear from these magma Oh
my god, you're coming after me.

Speaker 4 (01:20:37):
Oh. My friend Joeanne Littman wrote a whole essay about that,
you know, all doxed and attacked. It was awful. I'm
going to send it to you.

Speaker 1 (01:20:43):
You know, you know all of that.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
When I grew up, I don't like the term alpha
in general. You know, you're an alpha, you know, but
to me, at least as I was raised, you know,
being a good guy or good person, but you stand
up for people to me, like the cool kid or
the or the growing up when I was in high school.
Now would be considered that you would stand up against

(01:21:07):
the bully. The bully wasn't like the alpha person. The
bully was like the loser, you know, like why are
you bullying these people? Like you would want to stand
up for people. And that's to me what was always
viewed as like cool and how you know, at least
how I was raised and being a good man to
me is being a man of your word, being someone
of honor, you know, you know, against standing up for people.

(01:21:33):
And that's kind of been you know, inverted with this
to me, this corrosive culture that has you know, basically
said the opposite that the bullies and the people who
punch down. That's been viewed right now as like what
it is and it shouldn't be.

Speaker 4 (01:21:49):
Yes, just because of Trump, really, isn't it The way
he speaks and the way he talks and the way
he demeans people. Suddenly that has probably been interpret as.

Speaker 3 (01:21:59):
Good for it right in so many ways. You know,
it's funny when when when you speak about that, I
think about I think it's in twenty one Jump Street.
There's a scene in the movie, uh, you know where
Channing Tatum where they go to the high school and
they try to be cool as they knew it, like
in the eighties and tried to be like kind of
the bullies and stuff, and they're looked down upon as like, nah,
like we're not into that anymore. What are you doing

(01:22:20):
like this weird this weird stuff? And uh And I
feel like I, you know, I grew up the same way.
But you know, I think that I think that too
many people are looking at you know, Gen's Z or
Jen Alpha right now as being molded and kind of
set in certain ways, and that this election was, you know,
a reflection on who they are now and who they're
always going to be.

Speaker 4 (01:22:40):
But I do think they're being molded by some of
these percent they're giving anti women's empowerment bros, I.

Speaker 3 (01:22:50):
Think one hundred percent. But I don't think that's something
that is going to be like concrete in them necessarily.
I think people have their lived experiences, and I think
one of the interesting things that we've even seen in
the past few months since Trump has taken office is
when you look at a lot of those public opinion
polls of gen Z, they've completely flipped on their head,
and polls that showed gen Z you know, even or

(01:23:12):
supporting Trump back in November December. Now it's something like
sixty eight twenty something, you know, in the opposite direction.
So you see how even you know, those shifts could happen.
And I think when people even go out into the
world and have experiences and have jobs and need to
you know, afford medication and need to you know, help
their mom who's on Social Security, and they see these

(01:23:34):
real world things that you know, have been kind of
gamified in this kind of manosphere world and that have
kind of been stripped from them, I think the reality
wakes them up, you know a little bit.

Speaker 4 (01:23:45):
I think because I feel like they're still watching the
same people and still getting the same information. And unless
those people are flipping or changing or abandoning this administration
of what they're doing, they're going to be steadfast.

Speaker 3 (01:24:02):
Yeah, you know, I just I don't think they're lockdown.
I mean, maybe I have, you know, too much faith,
but I.

Speaker 2 (01:24:09):
Think you have to look at the going back to
where we almost started, right as I think you have
to look at the root cause, which is how is
this group able to be kind of preyed upon by
in my opinion, these types of fraudsters and people who
push this. And it's because, you know, I think a
lot of young people and young men are scared that

(01:24:29):
they're not going to have a future, right, And I
think it stems from their weakness and that other people
can pray on it because they're worried that am I
going to Am I going to have a job? Am
I going to be able to afford a home? Can
I bring someone on a date and afford to even
pay for it? What's my future going?

Speaker 4 (01:24:47):
But it's also more than that to me, Benett's sort
of oh, women are making all these strides, right, they're
more women in college and law school than there are men.
Or gosh, programs are giving unfair advantages, or affirmative action
or diversity programs in colleges or whatever you want to
talk about. I mean, I've seen it play out in

(01:25:09):
my own life among people I know, and they think
when other people do well, they do less well. Right,
And so there's just been this tremendous backlash and to
your point, like a lot of whining like oh poor us,
and playing the victim for a lot of young white men.

(01:25:30):
And I think you're right, people are exploiting that. But
how do you reverse it? How do you get people
to think differently and to see that this is you know,
because I do think they're having some real world effects.

Speaker 2 (01:25:44):
Well, I think you can't solve that by trying to
imitate it. You just become a worse version of something
that's not already good. Which is why the learning experience
of oh, the left needs to find a is the
wrong advice, because you want to become someone who's already

(01:26:06):
kind of praying on these communities.

Speaker 4 (01:26:08):
So what mean exactly?

Speaker 2 (01:26:10):
So you have to again, you have to be a
voice that is a fighter. I mean, you have to
go back to you have to be a doer. You
have to be someone who actually accomplishes things and says,
here's what I stand for. I mean, here are the
views and values. It's not a zero sum game you
against other groups and marginalized communities taking your That's not it.

(01:26:31):
That's a pathetic way. You know who deals with that?
Whiners deal with that like not like people who are
losers deal with that. You you want to be a winner,
Let's work hard, you know, Let's let's focus on being entrepreneurial.
Let's focus on actually building things versus destroying things. And
ripping things apart. Do you want to be a step up?

(01:26:52):
But yeah, yeah, step up, you know, step up, And yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:55):
I'm not gonna be.

Speaker 2 (01:26:56):
You know, when I talk to sometimes my I lecture
an undergrad. I have a big class. The semester's wrapped up.
But you know, at the end of the semester too,
sometimes I like to, you know, reflect on the way
that I don't know what the class is political views,
and I don't inject my political views ever in the class,
but I do talk about how I have white kids,

(01:27:19):
black kids, Latina kids, Asian students in my class, men, women,
trans in my class. No one in my class ever
thinks it's acceptable during the class to say, oh, look
at you, this race, look at you, this person, look
at you, this person.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
I don't like you. I don't like you.

Speaker 2 (01:27:38):
I mean, could you imagine what would happen in a
class if everybody was interacting and treating each other like No,
we act professional. There's a professor. We go through the semester,
we get along the diversity and the class, the different views,
different gen that made the class a more powerful experience
and we were all.

Speaker 1 (01:27:56):
Happy with it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):
So as I end the semester, I always go to them.
So why when we leave this classroom and go into
now what a political setting or a professional setting. Now
we're supposed to all of a sudden take this and
now fight each other, and now not like each other.
We saw the strength of what made this class of
one hundred and five people strong. It was the very

(01:28:18):
diverse We all liked each other. So go out there
and remember that this was a valuable experience for all
of us, and that should be what the real world was,
and that's what we should be fighting for. Not to
see in the halls of Congress them not letting people
in bath. They're like, what are they even doing?

Speaker 3 (01:28:34):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:28:35):
I mean, it's lost her mind.

Speaker 3 (01:28:38):
She was somebody who a few years ago, you know,
kind of pretended to be an ally and she's now
the biggest voice, you.

Speaker 4 (01:28:43):
Know, against she does the selfies in bat.

Speaker 3 (01:28:45):
It's like weird, right, It's like like sixty times a day.

Speaker 2 (01:28:48):
It's like you're on vacation sixty times a day about
any top at all, even like a hobby would be strange.
I mean, yet alone, like this is what you you know,
this is what you occupy your time with. And that's
how I try to flip it on the you know them,
you know more than I'm like, this is what you're
focused on, Like you wake up thinking about bathrooms all day.
This is your main view, you know, and and and

(01:29:10):
that's to me how you address it versus living in
their framework of all of their grievance and pettiness.

Speaker 3 (01:29:18):
And hate just flipping on them, you know. I think
one of the things that people I think one of
the reasons why people gravitate to the stuff we do
as well, is because they leave with the information. And
then I think they also leave empowered. And I think
folks need to be empowered. They need to feel in
control of their lives. And I think a lot of these,
you know, young kids right now don't feel in control

(01:29:38):
of their lives. And a lot of it's not their fault, right,
I mean, this is the situation. This is the hands
that they have been dealt, and it's you know, through
decades and decades and decades, you know, whether it's poor
policy or just shifts in global everything, like whatever it is.
You know, they're looking now, they're looking at their parents,
and they're going, well, they had it easy. They were
able to get a you know, my you know, Dad

(01:30:01):
was able to get one job and work you know,
five days a week, you know, eight hour days, and
come home or dinner, and we had two week vacations,
you know, twice a year. You know, they look and
they go, how the heck am I going to do that?
You know, even if I had a job where I
was making six figures, I'm not going to be able
to afford a house. I'm not going to be able
to have savings. I'm not going to be able to

(01:30:22):
live in a neighborhood where I could walk around and
get everything that I need to survive. And then in
doing all that, how am I going to have kids?
How am I going to be able to afford a family?
I can't even afford to get a coffee for myself,
you know. So these are real issues also, and so
what I don't want to do is write off also
a lot of this as mere whining and you know,

(01:30:43):
you kind of woe is me, But understand that, you know,
people are hurting, going back to what we were saying
at the beginning, and that's including these younger generations, and
so I think we need to empower them and.

Speaker 4 (01:30:54):
Also like acknowledge, acknowledge the anxiety and struggle. Know whoever,
they may be right, and I think we.

Speaker 3 (01:31:02):
Need to you know, acknowledge it. And you know what
we've seen in those communities that you've talked about, the manuspheral,
all that stuff, they've acknowledged it, and then they've directed
that anger at the other They've directed you are you
can't afford a home because the Democrats are giving the
money to illegal immigrants and that money should have went

(01:31:24):
to you. And then, you know, the second there's a
social program that may actually help people, they go, oh, no,
we're not gonna pay for that. That's socialism, that's communism.
We're not going to do that. It's like, okay, so
you don't believe in any of this, right, but but
too often that energy is taken and then it's pushed
in a negative direction to blame other people for you know,
for those woes, for those issues. I think we all

(01:31:46):
need to figure out a way as a society in general,
to how do we empower people, you know, in a
in a productive, positive way. And some of that also
is going to require structural change and in you know,
how are we going to ensure that these kids are
going to be able to grow up and have family
and have you know, productive lives and have a job
that they could support their families with and enjoy the

(01:32:07):
American dream as they've been told. I mean, we were
all promised growing up, right, you know, go to college,
you get a good you know, you get a good job,
you'll you'll be good. Everything is good. And now that's
not simply not what's happening in so many cases. So
I think there's a bitterness that develops, and that bitterness
is then you know, taken and weaponized for bad and

(01:32:28):
I think we need to kind of figure out how
to you know, take that and put people back on
the right course.

Speaker 4 (01:32:32):
That's a good segue to my final question, which is,
you know, you talk about empowering people, and I get
very discouraged about the state of the country and disappointed
and frustrated, and I'm curious. I like the idea, even
though you know some of your YouTube things are like

(01:32:53):
these big bold letters like the video he doesn't want
you to see, or pathetic meltdown, lock him up. You know,
it's very kind of I like it. You're saying a
slightly New York posty about it. To be honest with you,
with the yellow almost like in your face graphics. But

(01:33:14):
I'm curious if you're optimistic about the country, and what
kind of words of encouragement can you give me and
other people watching this or listening to this that we're
going to be okay and democracy is not going to
go away.

Speaker 2 (01:33:33):
I am hopeful. I am optimistic, and I think that
the plan that Trump and Musk had was to pretty
much control all levers of everything right now and really
beat down any opposition and resistance. I think what we
see right now in federal courts is judges appointed by Trump, Reagan,

(01:34:00):
George W. Bush on the due process questions. They made
a lot of bad rulings on a lot of things,
but on the due process questions, all judges have said,
at least as of now of this recording, there is
something called due process. You have to go and follow it,
and we do not live in an authoritarian country. And

(01:34:20):
so federal judges on that question, by and large across
the country are standing up to Donald Trump more significantly.

Speaker 1 (01:34:27):
Though.

Speaker 2 (01:34:28):
I think you see the protests, peaceful protests growing, I
think that's a good sign. I think what we saw
with the hands off protest No King's Day, I think
that's going to continue to grow. And that gives me
a lot of hope as well. And I think that
I take a lot of hope that people are in
the fight right now. I was worried that after the election,

(01:34:54):
you saw a lot of people just for about too much, yeah,
tune out and just didn't anything. I think that we
now have a opposition and resistance that looks and feels
even stronger than what we saw back in twenty seventeen,
twenty eighteen. I think people have seen Trump's reckless on

(01:35:16):
and off again tariffs and all of this rhetoric that
you know, it's the same kind of pattern. He huffs
and he puffs and does something that causes harm and
then he withdraws from it and then declares that a victory.
And there's still some news outlets that report these things
as victories. It's like he just is the arsonist who

(01:35:37):
slightly put out a fire that he created, and now
things are worse, and now he wants to declare that
a victory. But I think that the publics that by
and large is seeing that.

Speaker 4 (01:35:49):
I mean, Americans are smart, right, I mean a lot
of them are smart.

Speaker 2 (01:35:53):
Yeah, And I think we see Trump's approval right now
is basically the worst in presentidential history at this time,
including his first term. As you look across the poles
and so he still has that thirty five percent kind
of MAGA floor plus are minus another five or six percent.

(01:36:14):
So some poles at thirty nine, some at forty two.
But by and large, I don't think people like hostile
takeovers of the federal government. I think people want to
feel safe going on airplanes and not have a transportation
secretary kind of panic on TV about flights and staffing
and try to blame other people. I think people see

(01:36:35):
veterans getting fired and disrespected. I think people see education
being gutted, and I think that people don't like that stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:36:43):
Women dying in parking lot, I think too absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:36:46):
And I think that people saying, you know, you know, no,
we're not okay with this, and that gives.

Speaker 1 (01:36:52):
Me, That gives me hope.

Speaker 4 (01:36:54):
Even slack divism, whati's so called, you know, sitting on
your chairs and trying to do some thing which was
derided for so long, I think is actually a pretty
good barometer of how people are feeling. You know, what
they're saying on social media, how they're commenting and what
they're watching, like the Midus network, right, you.

Speaker 3 (01:37:14):
Know percent Yeah, And then that's why we always say,
you know, do what you can, right. You don't have
to go out there and build a media network, right, Like,
that's not we're asking, right, But but if your thing
is getting your messages out on social media by sending messages,
do it like we're talking to a neighbor. I'm listening
to a neighbor, right, do it. If you if you're
a painter, paint right, like, whatever it is that you do,

(01:37:38):
do it and use that to empower yourself. Also, I
think one of the things that I also think about
is just how much throughout history, and not even just
American history, but in general, they are these big pendulum
swings and they happen quickly, and you know, I think.

Speaker 4 (01:37:53):
I've never seen one happen quite this quick and clearly.

Speaker 3 (01:37:55):
That's what I was going to say. I've never seen
it happen as quickly as we've seen it happen now,
and even since Donald Trump took office to right now,
I think we've also seen a tremendous pendulum swing kind
of influx. As we are kind of all living in
this moment, how this will end. When it will end,
what it looks like when we're on the other side.
You know, I don't know that history has not yet

(01:38:17):
been written, but I know that the pendulum always does swing.
It doesn't happen on its own, but you know, it
happens by collective action. And you know a lot of
people staying engaged and in the fight, but I know
it will. And that's why when we speak about these
fair weather you know, folks who change their opinion based
on the way the wind is blowing, I think they
may get caught on the wrong side of you know,
that pendulum when things swing back to you know, people

(01:38:41):
you know pushing forward on you know, inclusion, diversity, people
championing you know, workers' rights, people championing you know, the
ability for people to afford their you know, medication or
get their social security or whatever it is. I think
there's a breaking point that society reaches, and I think
we've kind of did a a speed run, you know,

(01:39:02):
to where we are right now, even a speed run
to Trump and now a speed run kind of back
as people are like, oh shit, maybe this wasn't the
best idea on the planet.

Speaker 2 (01:39:10):
I did.

Speaker 4 (01:39:10):
I did feel like Andy Basheer, who I don't know
if you all talked about this, Ben, but he did
have a good point about, you know, the Democrats and
some progressives I think became a little too precious about
words and about you know, shaming or judging or you know,
being self righteous about framing certain issues to the point

(01:39:34):
where it was like a turnoff for a lot of people.
Do you agree with that criticism, Well, I.

Speaker 3 (01:39:39):
Think ultimately, speak as people speak, you know, don't don't
try to cook up phrases in a lab. Don't try
to you know, come up with euphemisms for things, or
you don't know, you know how many times people have also,
you know, come to us you know what I think
you should say, you know, like experts, maybe instead of
saying the language this way, maybe should say it, you know,

(01:40:01):
this other way. And I'm like, I've never heard somebody
use that phrase in my life, though, Like I can't.
I don't even know what you're talking about. Honestly, it
sounds like mumbo jumbo, like.

Speaker 1 (01:40:08):
A breda tested point three percent.

Speaker 3 (01:40:10):
Yeah, this tested. I'm like, I don't even know what
that means. So, yeah, I'm going to talk how I
speak with my brothers and how I speak with my friends.

Speaker 4 (01:40:18):
Yeah, and I know you say what what you can
have in a group chat right like, it's it's got
to be sort of figured out that way, JORDI bring
it home money I I I.

Speaker 1 (01:40:28):
Want to echo your point that you said just before.
Americans are spart Americans are resilient, and it's not going
to be easy these next couple of years here, but
democracy will prevail. I genuinely have hope. I know from
the folks my age, I know where they're sinning that
right now, and I know from you know, folks around
Ben and Brett's age and then older, you know where
they're sinning that. People love this country. This country is

(01:40:52):
the greatest country in the world. Americans want this country
to succeed. The world wants this country to succeed. And
we just have to put our heads down every single
day and do the work and make sure that we
leave this country better off, you know, not just for
our kids, but for the next several generations of kids
hundreds of years down the line, because that's how much
this country means to us.

Speaker 4 (01:41:12):
And in the mouth of it, mauths of babes, right,
you did he nail it?

Speaker 3 (01:41:17):
Or well?

Speaker 4 (01:41:17):
Yes, you nailed it. Nailed it. You guys ever fight
by the way, do you ever get into the guards?

Speaker 3 (01:41:23):
Absolutely, but listen, it's not it's not like but they're
not like you know, it's it's little things. Honestly, like
we we don't all that much.

Speaker 4 (01:41:32):
But you know, if do you like working together, it's
the best.

Speaker 3 (01:41:34):
It's honestly, it's a dream like and I think always
growing up, like we always wanted to work together in
some capacity, and like as kids, we would like make
movies together, you know, we would make like little action
movies or horror movies or mystery movies or whatever, and
and that that would be like our way of working together.
I would play sports like whatever it was. Again, we'd
always love doing stuff together. Then there just became a time,
it came in time in life where our age difference,

(01:41:56):
you know, separate you, separates you naturally. You know, when
when Ben's already in college and I'm just starting high
school and Jordi's in middle school, you know whatever that is,
or I'm a senior in high school, Jeordie's just starting,
you know, as a freshman in high school. And luckily
I set the stage to make sure everybody likes, you know,
but there's always these kinds.

Speaker 4 (01:42:14):
Of and that you live up to Ben's.

Speaker 3 (01:42:17):
You know, school president and teachers.

Speaker 1 (01:42:22):
That's a ridiculous award.

Speaker 2 (01:42:23):
You wanted the real war.

Speaker 4 (01:42:26):
It was a teachers awards.

Speaker 1 (01:42:30):
Him. Yeah, it suck up him. Right here, let's focus
on the student government.

Speaker 4 (01:42:39):
Well, I have to say this is especially the longest
podcast I've ever done, but it felt like the shortest.
Thank you guys so so much. This was such a
fun conversation. I learned a lot and just really enjoyed
getting to know all three of you. So thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:42:54):
It was great to be here. And you know, we
did grow up watching you and.

Speaker 3 (01:43:00):
They are such massive myers of Yes, truly an honor.
So for this to be, you know, the first show
that we're actually in person on together. You know, it's
it's not by accident and where we're really grateful, you know,
for that, and we're just so thrilled to be here
with you.

Speaker 1 (01:43:14):
Thank you, thank you. I'm not just saying that because
I'm the teachers. I'm not trying to suck out you
see how you want. I'm genuinely genuinely.

Speaker 4 (01:43:30):
Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for
me a subject you want us to cover, or you
want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this
crazy world, reach out send me a DM on Instagram.
I would love to hear from you. Next Question is
a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive
producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising

(01:43:54):
producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio
and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed art theme music. For
more information about today's episode, or to sign up for
my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description in
the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com.

(01:44:15):
You can also find me on Instagram and all my
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iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. Hi everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm
always on the go between running my media company, hosting

(01:44:35):
my podcast, and of course covering the news. And I
know that to keep doing what I love, I need
to start caring for what gets me there, my feet.
That's why I decided to try the Good feet stores
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(01:44:56):
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