December 8, 2022 • 50 mins
Mike White is the creator of HBO’s pandemic hit, The White Lotus. In its second season, which is about to wrap, the anthology series follows a group of wealthy vacationers and local workers at a stunning resort in Sicily. But before the lux world of The White Lotus, Mike White spent his time on the periphery, creating offbeat characters in movies like ‘Chuck and Buck,’ ‘The Year of the Dog,’ ‘The Good Girl,’ and ‘School of Rock.’ He has also had a few notorious and fairly successful stints on reality tv shows like Survivor and The Amazing Race. What does all of that have to do with the success of The White Lotus? Come find out on this episode of Next Question with Katie Couric! You can stream The White Lotus on HBO Max. The final episode of the second season airs Sunday, Dec. 11.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kirk, and this is next question.
I am super psyched you guys, because my guest today
is the creator of the show everyone is talking about
The White Lotus. I'm obsessed. In its second season, the
series follows a group of wealthy vacationers and the people
(00:20):
who work at a stunning seaside resort in Sicily. Welcome
to the White Lotus. I am Valentina, the roysorts manager.
How is it both right? It was? I mean, I'm
impressed that you're even here. Why are you impressed? It's
a long trip from Los Angeles and you're quite old. No, anyway,
(00:41):
Isabella here, we'll take you up to the account and
bring you to your your beautiful groom and after you
a glass of prof thank you. Before the luxe world
of The White Lotus, Mike White spent much of his
time on The Proof Are creating characters who were two loners, weirdos,
(01:04):
and wanderers in movies like Chuck and Buck, The Year
of the Dog with Molly Shannon, The Good Girl with
Jennifer Anniston, and School of Rock with Jack Black, popular
movies in their own right, but nothing like The Mean
producing headline driving conspiracy filled chatter surrounding the White lotus.
(01:26):
It seems like it's a new, slightly uncomfortable position for
Mike to be in. I see myself as an underdog
and I and I'm always like that, Like I'm always
going to see myself as like somebody who has to
prove something. So like, even in success, I still feel
like I don't know, Yeah, I'm not. I don't feel
like an impostor, but I feel like I'm I don't know,
(01:47):
like you know, I slipped in through the side door
or something. Today we dive into all of it, the
making of the show, the anatomy of those crazy characters,
Mike's childhood, and how he really feels about his newfound fame.
So let me just first start by asking what does
(02:08):
it feel like to be Mike White these days? Well?
What a question? I uh, you know. I we honestly
just finished the final episode. We had a very crazy
shooting schedule that because of COVID and because of weather
and Italy and a lot of different reasons, we went
(02:31):
over our shoot and so I thought HBO would give
us a little break and let us air later than
what we were expecting, And instead they were like we
need it when we need it, and so it cut
into our post. So I was editing and finishing the
show up until like ten days ago. So I've just
been like, I'm I'm living in Hawaii right now for
(02:52):
tax reasons. There's a good incentive for them to do
the post here, which is great. But I soa I've
been kind of in a bubble. I'm just been finishing
the show, uh, living on an island, and so yeah,
it's I don't know, I don't I don't know what
it's like to but it, but it doesn't I'm not
getting It's not like I'm it's not like I'm walking
(03:13):
around l A and like getting a high five from
people or anything like that. So it's it's it, but
I'm but I'm excited that it's sentence that that people
are watching the show and liking it, and I'm definitely
getting that. But it's but it's just pretty I'm still
kind of living on an island and living in a bubble. Well.
Having said that, though, Mike, let's get real. I mean
(03:33):
you are sort of the envy of everyone in Hollywood,
and this is something that you've talked about kind of
willingly in an article you did in in Vulture. You
talked about Hollywood, Who's up, Who's down, kind of how
people are all envious of one another and that you're
uber competitive. So have you been have you said all that, Mike,
(03:56):
have you been able to take a moment and it's
kind of say the bomb? Oh my god, No, no
that's not me, but but yes, I I am. I'm
you know, it's honestly, Katie, I feel like i'm you know,
I'm fifty two years old, and I've been doing this
(04:16):
since I was twenty two years old, and so and
I've had, you know, a lot of things made, and
a lot of things that I thought were successful, but
not at this yeah, with this kind of reaction. And
so I just sort of feel like to use the like,
since I'm in Hawaii, like an analogy that fits here,
which is like I feel like I'm a surfer who's
been out in the ocean for a long time and
(04:38):
like I caught a wave. I don't know why this wave,
but like you know, obviously I I'm old enough and
have had a long enough career to see it as yeah,
a blessing and but also something that you can't you know,
I I would never try to chase this reaction because
I just it's just it's just you just never know
(05:00):
what's gonna yeah, what people are gonna respond to. So
I'm excited. I'll take your word for it that that's that.
It's it's that, Yeah, I don't know. I'm obviously I'm happy.
It's like I mean, I I was like at the
age where I was just like can I keep doing?
You know, like it was like maybe the old Gray
Mary what she used to be, And I'm gonna like
so like it's nice to have a little like uh,
(05:21):
it's it's it's definitely fun. I'm very excited, but I
don't know whatever. Well, let's talk about the genesis of
White lotus um. I was at a party and I
heard from a couple of Hollywood types that HBO had
access to a hotel that was empty in Maui during
(05:43):
COVID and came to you and said, hey, Mike White,
can you write a show that takes place in a hotel?
Is that how it started? It? Kind of? It definitely
was like they need they had a lot of projects
that had fallen apart because of COVID, and so they
just they knew why I was kind of fast and
that like I was good with dialogue, and that like
(06:04):
maybe a show that was very that I could write
a show in a bubble that was like that would
maybe be immune from some of the COVID uh issues
that they had come upon. And so so they asked
me to do it, like can you come up with
a bubble show? But they didn't have a I was like,
it was my idea to do it in a hotel.
And I I was like, and I'm you know, I
(06:25):
have a place in Kuaie and I'm like, and I
knew that there were all these hotels that were just
yeah defunct and they were just head shut down because
of COVID, And I was like, we could grab one
of those hotels in bed in Hawaii. But they didn't
even really want us to go to Hawaii because that
was already to um treacherous potential issues with COVID. They
wanted us like they probably would have been having even
(06:45):
found like a hotel and like Lancaster, like you know
across the street from Casey Boys's house or something, right,
So like so yeah, I just um uh, so yeah,
I had to push for Hawaii. But yeah, it was
kind of a mix a mix of that, and tell
me a little bit about how you were inspired to
write really both seasons, but let's start with the first.
I mean, when you sit down to write this, Mike,
(07:09):
what were you trying to accomplish? I know that's kind
of a big broad question, but I'm just curious. You've
got a blank screen, a blank computer screen, and you
decide I want to show class differences. I wanted to
show really interesting characters. I think one of the things,
I one of many things I love about this show
(07:30):
is it feels very current. You know, sometimes things get
made and they come out a couple of years later
or even a year later, and they don't feel oh
karent or of the moment. And I think White Load
has felt so tuned into current sensibilities. So just talk
(07:51):
to me a little bit about your thought process when
you put a finger to keyboard. Are you talking about
like the like the first season? Yeah, sure, and we'll
talk about the second. Yeah. The first season it was
I I you know, I've spent a lot of time
in Hawaii, so you know, some of and a lot
of the in Hawaii, there's definitely like two classes. There's
(08:14):
the you know, the tourists and the moneyed people who
come and like you know, have their vacations here. And
then there's the service class of people who you know,
can be at any you know, some of them are
do very well financially, but they're all servicing these tourists,
and so you you know, if you hear long enough,
you get like this. You know, the I obviously know
(08:37):
the tourist side of it because I've been there, and
I you know, it's like and a lot of my
friends who visit, you know, so I get that part
of it, but they also you know, the service side
of it. And I just felt like, you know, there's
something about doing you know, because obviously Hotel or like
Fantasy Island, you think Love Vote, Like there's like there's
like a history of these kind of shows in this
kind of you know, trying to genre exactly, but to
(08:59):
do something that is a little bit more well observed,
and that kind of gets it. You know. I just
thought it was like an interesting about how money, who
has the money impacts relationships both obviously from the server
and the you know, customer, but also you know, the
husband and the wife and the father and the child
and and and so it just felt like maybe as
(09:22):
a theme that seemed rich, and so that was kind
of initial impulse because I was like, we're gonna be
in a hotel. You know, nobody can leave. It's kind
of has to be a crucible everyone, you know, And
so yeah, it kind of built out from there. And
then it was just like years of maybe years of
too much being online and like Twitter speak and like
it was just like I was like, like I would
just started freestyling as far as just like trying to
(09:44):
get at some of the I don't know the kind
of contemporary language and stuff like that. It seems to
me you're almost like a an anthropologist kind of discovering
and exposing human behavior. And I when I watch I
wonder how much of this did Mike learn from being
on reality shows how people act? Because obviously you were
(10:07):
in Survivor. On Survivor, I understand you're a good friend
of Jeff Probes. Do you love reality television? You were
on the Amazing Race with your dad. So did some
of those experience help inform your writing for White Lotus?
Am I getting too weird on these questions? No? Not
at all. I I mean I actually what I loved
(10:28):
when I when I you know, because I was obviously
a writer before the big reality boom, which I think
started like in two thousand ish. Um. And then uh
but like you know, you show like Survivor came along
and you were like, wow, it was showing people, you know,
one minute they would be very irritating or very petty,
and then the next minute they would be very um,
(10:50):
vulnerable and your heart goes out to them, and then
they could be courageous, and I don't know, it was
just like you would see these these I mean because
they were people. It was like fully dimensional humans. And
even though maybe the format could be formula, uh, there
was something I just as a writer, I was like,
this is this is you know, this this makes you
(11:11):
want to raise your game as far as like when
you are creating characters that people are watching, because it
felt like they were always surprising and you were you know,
you just you There wasn't some internal integrity obviously, but
there was also all of these colors and so it
I've always wanted to try to write characters that could match,
you know, some of the great you know, personalities that
(11:34):
you see in reality TV. So yeah, I do think
that's a that's a part of it. And I just
think when I was very young, starting very early, I
was I was always um, you know, I had Sam
Shepherd's mother was my second grade teacher, and she loved
her son and I loved her, and so it was
the first time that I realized, oh, people were play rights.
(11:56):
So very early on I was writing little plays and so, like,
I've always listened, and I've always been interested in how
people talk, because I've always thought about things in terms
of dialogue, and then also how what they say about
themselves doesn't always necessarily match what they think and doesn't
always match what they are going to do, and so
that's always been interesting to me, and so I've always
(12:19):
been kind of an observer of of that. I guess
I think your childhood, though, in addition to being taught
by Sam Shepherd's mother in second grade, which is a
cool little fact at Trivia fact Um, you grew up
in an evangelical household in Pasadena, and yet you were
always skeptical about religion. What was your childhood like, Mike, Well,
(12:42):
my parents were very loving and I loved. I had
a very nurturing, positive, um nuclear family. My dad was
a minister, and we were part of a bigger, kind
of more evangelical religious community, and it was there that
community where it was death really felt. I always felt
a little alien. I never really drunk the kool aid,
(13:04):
as they say, and I I always yeah, it was
there where you I think that I, you know, some
of the you know, part of drama is is yeah,
getting past then, you know, the facade and trying to
see what people really do and what people really are like,
but beyond what they say they do. And I think
(13:26):
there's a lot of hypocrisy and a lot of those
smaller evangelical communities about you know, certainly around sex and
around how people you know, think about you know, what
the motivations for behavior are and stuff, and so I
I have so it always I always felt like I
was like I always wanted to know. I was like,
what's the what's the real you know, like I've always
(13:47):
been like, yeah, interested in like what really how what
people do and how that that's sometimes not really in
line with how they present themselves. I think that shows
up in a lot of your work, Mike. I was
rewatching Brad's status, and I think that was very effective
in terms of this inner turmoil brad a k ah
(14:10):
Ben Stiller is experiencing, comparing him his station in life
to all of his college friends who were doing much better.
And I think that external internal conflict is something it
seems to me that you you go back to. And
I read that when you were eleven, your dad came
(14:34):
out to your family. He was a minister, as you mentioned,
but also a gross writer for people like Jerry Fallwell
and Tammy Baker, and you once said finding out about
your dad's sexuality is quote the key to everything I write.
How so well just in the sense of what I
was just talking about, which is, you know, uh, it's
(14:55):
a big run to be pulled from under you where
you know, you've think your family is this thing, and
your dad is this thing, and he's a minister, and
then you realize there's this other, whole other side, which
isn't necessarily a dark side, it's just a truth. And
the truth is in contradiction to what he's supposed to
(15:15):
be in the world. And and so I think, you know,
exploring that and and and and I think that that, yeah,
that just just to me, it just you know, obviously
it hit home in a literal way, just that you know,
we are more complicated than we present ourselves, and that
(15:35):
we put are certain face to our community, and that
that maybe in drama and showing some of that. Obviously
there's a titillation part of it, but then there's like
maybe some kind of solace to know that, like everybody
is grappling with this, like that the person that we
want to be and the person that the world wants
us to be, we're not always that and that's okay
(15:56):
and that's human and and that kind of thing. You
went to Wesleyan, I know, and you said you finally
found your people there. So how did Wesleyan affect you,
not only as a person but as a writer. Well,
I I was in a kind of more homogeneous community
(16:17):
growing up in high school, you know, and grade school,
and so going to Wesleyan, you know, it was a
very open minded liberal community in general, and also just
these kids were so sophisticated. It was like I was
just like I just felt like I was like like
behind the curve, you know. I was kind of a
self taught. I mean, I was just I mean I
(16:38):
went to a good school, but it was like as
far as culture and stuff, I was just I was,
you know, I like, I had my own like subscription
to the New Yorker for I was, I was just
trying to find my way through the culture. And so,
like I would, I went to Wesley and all these
you know, a lot of I mean, it was a
lot of New York Jewish kids who are like very
like fully baked and fully like you know, you know,
(16:59):
like new fancy people. And I was just like I
kind of was just I felt like a rube. But
I got but I was so enamored by the yeah,
the whole vibe there and and still to this day,
a lot of those kids I met there are are
my my friend group. And when you when you graduated
(17:20):
from Wesleyan, were you really interested in play writing or
just writing in general? Well, I wanted to be a playwright.
I wanted to be Sam Shepherd. I went from California
to Yeah, to Wesley and and I was like I
didn't have socks and I didn't realize how cold it
was back East. I was like, this is too cold
for me. Like I so I was like, I was like,
(17:42):
my plan was to go to New York was starting playwright.
But I was like, I don't know if I could
handle this weather, I was like, so, I like kind
of I fell into the wrong crowd and came back
to l A I was started writing for for movies
and TV. After the break, Let's go to Sicily Bowie.
(18:10):
When you look back at your quote unquote body of
work like White, do you notice any kind of thread
that connects a lot of these stories when you think
about it, Um, I don't know, me I have a thread,
I don't know, and they're I mean, it's an idiosyncratic
(18:31):
body of work and I and I'm proud. I like
I one thing that I always was like, I'm not
going to take myself so seriously that I miss out
on anything like and That's how That's why I did Survivor.
That's why I did amazing Race. It's why I've taken
jobs that I don't know. It's like, you know, like
I always thought that I I mean, if now now
(18:54):
I do sound like whatever, I just you know, it's
like I always thought I was talented. I always felt
like I had some in the offer. I always felt
like I was, you know, like I like you said
I was. You know, I've said I'm competitive, like I
would see peers who like, you know, caught the wave
and got a lot of like attention and success, and
I was like, I could do that. I'm better, I'm
(19:14):
I'm as good or better than those people. And and
you know, of course that's the that's the that's the
gumption that you need to get through Hollywood by like
and so um so. But at the same time, I
was just like, I'm not gonna be I met people
early on who had careers that I admired, and a
lot of them seem miserable or they seem like they
(19:36):
were really um in a um you know, protective of
their you know, like they I don't know, they that
in order to be serious taken seriously, they had to
kind of have a serious vibe. And it's like we're
in the we're in the we're in the you know.
I I think our work is meaningful, but like we
(19:56):
are in the in the sort of we're in the
kids section in a sense, know what I mean. We're
not we're not you know, we're not hearing cancer. Yeah,
we're not hearing cancer or not in the policy we're
not policy wants. We're not It's like we are you know,
we're in the we're in the entertainment section, you know
what I mean. So it's like and so I just
was like, I just don't I want to. I want
(20:16):
to be successful and I want people to think I'm talented,
but I also I want to I want to live
a life that I look back on and the life
itself was cool and then and the things I did
were cool, and it's not just my work. So so
like I look at those all those different things and
that it's like it's it's an eclectic it's like it's
kind of a hot mess, like a bunch of credits,
(20:40):
but I each one of them. I like I got
different things out of and and and yeah, I had
served different purposes for me. But right now you are
in a very different position, like because I'm sure everyone
in Hollywood is saying that Mike White he can write
his own ticket. Now he can kind of do whatever
he wants, which I think makes you a little uncomfortable. Well,
(21:04):
I don't know. I feel like this is like it's
like I'm waking up in Hawaiians like Haiti Kurt is
here to tell you everything has changed. Everything is I
feel like your therapist, Like no, well, I I appreciate
you saying that, and I and I, you know, I
actually feel like I if that's true. I feel like
(21:26):
I feel like I'm like somebody who's been ready to
be at bat for a long time. And I've done it,
you know, like you know, and I've I've done things.
I'm proud of it. But like I've it's always been
swimming upstream to get the financing, to get the actor,
to get the thing to the you know, like it's
it's and that's part of the fun, I guess, but
it's also part it's there's wear and tear. So it's like,
(21:49):
if it's an easier road to do the things I
want to do, I'm ready to do more and I
have more to say, and I, you know, like and
it's and and this was hard. It took a lot
out of me, especially this last season. But this is
what I've always wanted to do and and and and
so I'm grateful that I have the opportunity to do it.
(22:10):
Are you having fun, Mike? I am having fun. I'm
having fun talking to you. I'm hearing why I'm you know,
I've gotten through the season and everyone's you know, chatting up,
so that's fun. But I also I need to reboot
a little bit. I don't have a lot of gas
in the tank, so I need to figure out how
to whatever unplug and refresh or something. Let's talk about
(22:35):
this current season of White Lotus, because I'm worried, Mike,
I'm worried about the characters. I'm White. I'm really worried.
I'm I'm really worried. I'm worried about Porscha. I'm really
worried about Tanya. I'm worried about is it Albie? I mean,
I'm worried about everyone. What are you doing to us? Mike? Well,
(23:00):
the fun thing about Yeah, what I'd like about this
format is that, like I like, I kind of like
a slow simmer, you know, so it's it's fun. Well,
you know, I think the pleasure of this one, and
certainly this season and last season two, I think is like,
you know, you hope you create very credible characters, and
(23:20):
you create a situation that like you're like it passes
the bullish ship detector to some degree and that and
then and then just start to like cook up the gap,
you know, like turn up the heat just so it's like,
you know, it's like almost like when you're on the
yeah roller coaster and you're like chi chi ch and
you're like going up and you're like this is gonna
(23:41):
go really far down, like we are really going chick.
So yeah, And I think the finale hopefully will satisfy
the Catharsis And I mean, yeah, there's gonna be a
lot of there's gonna be a lot of gnashing of
teeth and it's yes, but but yeah, you should be worried.
(24:02):
I keep thinking about that story of the woman that
fell that they threw off the mountain. I also keep
worrying about the the wife of the the cheesy finance
guy saying, Oh, you're gonna die here. They're gonna have
to drag you out of this place. I keep thinking, oh,
(24:24):
what does that mean? I have my right to pick
up on some of these things. I mean, well, some
of them are intentional to build the for the finale,
and some are a little bit mrrects so that people think, yeah,
you want to You want people to like feel like
they're you know, Miss Marple and they've got the clues,
but you need extra clues. You know, it's not so
(24:47):
obvious what happens. But I think people I think even
if you guess you're gonna be surprised, but just how
it all falls apart um. I love the way you
use art interchangeably. First of all, obviously you're obsessed with
kind of those water shots, which I really liked to
but I love the I love the painting, the artifacts,
(25:09):
the architecture, the shots of the porcelain head, of that
same porcelain head guy that you keep going back to
again and again. Tell me your thought process about using
that as a way to propel the story forward or
to foreshadow things, or to echo what might be going
on at the time. Can you tell like that very intimly. Yeah,
(25:34):
that's awesome. Yeah, well the tested him where I was
when I got there, I was like, because they're everywhere
in sicily those heads and the story behind it has
to and the reason for the whole season was because
these heads. I was like, because I would go around like,
these heads are everywhere, and it was about adultery and
violence and sexual jealousy, and I was like that just
(25:54):
I had a different idea for the second season. I
was like, no, we've got to do an operatic like
itally in sexual jealousy storyline, I mean, and it's like
that's that's what people want to see anyway. But also
this is the part of my job that people should
be jealous of, which is I go to Sicily. I'm
telling them I'm doing white Lotus. All of the rich
(26:16):
like Sicilians who have these pilazzos are willing to let
me come in and like snoop around their house. I
got to see all these and so like two of
them ended up in the show. But like you walk
around and you have no idea that behind this, like
you know, edifice is like this incredible polazzo that they're
all there. A lot of them are hidden, It's like
(26:37):
and then to be able to like get access to
those and see them, and I was like, well we
gotta Like so when we would get into these places,
I was like, we gotta shoot. We gotta just like
fire hose this down, Like we gotta get every piece
of art on the walls, like we gotta do push
ins on all of the you know. So for someone
who like you know, likes interior, you know whatever, like
these kind of like classic Max the List, eclectic, like
(27:01):
you know, like rich, you know, Palazza is like I
was just like I was in heaven. So I just
felt like I had to make the most of it.
And I mean it must have been an extraordinary place
to film. And is that a real hotel? Was that
hotel vacant as well? Or tell me about the location.
I want to go to that hotel? Yeah you should.
It's it's the Sandamnico Palace, which is like a very
(27:23):
historical um. It was originally a convent and thenn turned
into a hotel, but it's been a hotel for quite
a lot a long time, and Lave and Turo was
shot there. It's like it's it's a it's amazing because obviously,
you know, I got we we looked at a lot
of different hotels and it's just like, first the convent
part of it just gives it this added kind of
you know vibe, and then you know, you see these
(27:46):
terraced hills with all these different you know villas, you
know that are so classic and European, and and then
you have the Greek theater on one side, and then
the Ionian Sea in front, and then the mount now
which is literally you know, belching smoke half the time.
And he was like, this is if we're going to
go to Europe, this is what you go for you
(28:06):
go for these views. So it's definitely I I highly
recommend Tarmina and Sicily itself. It's it's like you really
can't spend enough time there. It's like as each you know,
it was just after a few days it was like
I was like, Okay, we've done the sightseeing, but like
it's just like then there's just this like vibe over
time that just really seduces you. Did you find Luccia
(28:28):
and Mia in Sicily? No, we we found them in Rome. Uh.
Simona who plays Lucia is actually from Naples and um
MIA's from Rome. But we had a great set of
casting directors from Italy who brought us a lot of options.
And those those two and Sabrina and Patria Tory who
(28:51):
plays the manager, they're all they were all incredible and
so fun to work with. Yeah, they were fun to watch,
I'll tell you that. And I know that you have
said that the show satirizes wealthy, white privilege, and you've
said that your intention was to quote unquote poke the Bear,
but through a humanist perspective. So help us out with that, Mike,
what did you mean, um, well, poke the Bear? I
(29:14):
don't you know obviously you're I'm satirizing privilege, but you know,
especially with the first season, I also was poking the
bear as far as some of the I don't know,
like I wanted to give voice to both you know,
the critiques of of the patriarchy and all of these
things that you know, we we are discussing, you know,
(29:37):
and have been discussing with fervor the last couple of years,
but also give voice to the people that are you know,
it's like, you know, I haven't hearing you know, like
like some of the conversations that I'm hearing that people
don't want to say in public but like behind closed doors,
and try to you know, like not you know, make
it so it you're kind of walking the line where okay,
(29:59):
well that's sort of is a fair point, and then like,
oh yeah, but you're saying that because this is you know,
you're you're defending, you know, you're on your heels, So
like trying to make it so it's not so such
a simple, predigested conversation and and and have those conversations
be um lively and like you know, multi layered, multi
(30:22):
layered enough that like people feel like, oh they're they're
being seen and then and it's still challenged and so
and that was that was what I was trying to do.
And you know, like and and the fact that like
people on both sides of some of these arguments, like
champion the show or also like hated the show, made
me feel like I did my job. Yeah, so you're
(30:44):
you're really showing some of those tricky conversations that people
do have behind closed doors. And I think that that's
what contributes, Mike to the realness of the show and
the dialogue that you know, you feel like this is
what people really are talking about, and that you're not
following some kind of prescriptive dialogue to be on the
(31:09):
right side of any issue. Yeah, because I don't even
I don't even It's like, ultimately, it's like, I don't
think it's the dramatist job too. It's I don't think
it's it's a message conveying machine. If I was trying
to make a message, then I would be communicating in
a different medium or a different kind of Uh. It's
(31:29):
really about giving voice of the different people who exist
in our world and try, you know, and do my
best to to make it feel like it's a you know,
a dimensional conversation after the break, why Mike spends so
much time in the gray areas of human behavior. I
(31:59):
know that lot of people have taken note that your characters,
so many of them are just unlikable or complicated, or
there are certain things you like in certain things you
really don't like, so you feel conflicted. And I feel
very conflicted about Tanya. I really disliked her at the
end of last season, and now I don't dislike her.
(32:22):
I feel sorry for her because she's quite competitive pathetic,
but she's also sort of lovable too. Yeah, well, I
I mean yeah, I mean well, Jennifer Coolidge is lovable period,
and and so she brings the loveability for sure. But yeah,
I do think it's like I, especially the first season,
(32:45):
you know, I wanted there to be two tracks, which is,
you know, her as the underdog who's looking for love
and dealing with the fact that her mom died and
you know the pain of that, and so on one
side you're rooting for her, and then there's this other
story where she's kind of dangling this carrot over this
other woman's you know, and future and making her feel
(33:09):
like there's hope for something and then she's kind of
a flake. And that just seems very true to life
to for me to some of these women that I've
met and or you know man or too about just
like where you know, they see themselves as a victim
in some sense and and the savior or savior or
savior yeah, and and they don't see how that they
can also be victimizing and that they that they yeah,
(33:33):
that they they have agency and that they are yeah,
that that they are somehow blowing it. Let let me
ask you about some of the other characters in kind
of a rapid fire way. We talked about Mia and Lucia,
and we talked about Valentina. Um. Let's talk about Porsche
and I love this discussion online about Porsche's clothes. Have
(33:56):
you seen this, Mike, that she dresses like good gen
Z Threat Store, Like nothing really goes together, like it
doesn't look good or not. I mean, what do you
think of all that? It's so funny. Well, a lot
of the credit goes to um, I mean that was
her character on the page, But Hailey Lou Richardson, who's
(34:17):
the actress, and then Alex Bavert, who is our costum designer,
you know, are the true geniuses behind her looks. And
you know, I'm I'm a little bit like women's fashion
is not my um go too, but I but I
but I did weigh in. I did weigh in. I approved,
I supervised, but I uh but um yeah, I just
(34:41):
think that you know, to me, Porscha is somebody who
I see this a lot, and this was something that
I feel like online I think is the thing that
I I find interesting is that there's a lot of
people who are like rich, you know, like bad bad
rich people. Rich people are terrible, you know, like it's
this like this kind of like you know that that
I that I'm allowed to make the show as long
(35:02):
as I show how bad rich people are. That the
moral of the story is that rich people are better something.
And it's like and and and obviously you know there
is there's truth to that, like a lot of rich
people are fighting up the world and so like I
you know, but but I also you know you and
so like I guess Porsche was like a vehicle to
(35:23):
explore how she sees in Tanya all of these bad
character traits and that she you know, if and if
she had what Tanya had, she would have her life together,
and she would be she you know, like she would
be She wouldn't do it better than Tanya. But you
see how in her own way she's she is kind
of lost in the In a similar way, she's actually
(35:44):
kind of a mini me to Tanya and a fat
Tanya tells, Porsche, you remind me a lot of myself
when I was younger. But I also think Porsche is
very gen Z and that she's sort of a little
bit lost and just doesn't know what she wants to do.
She doesn't really have any goals. She's trying to figure
(36:05):
it out. Did that I mean, do you know young
people like that that kind of helped shape that character? Yeah,
I do think. I mean again, I don't want to
get crucified, but I do think I've noticed in this
younger generation a desire to try on identities and and
and feel like there's something like, like, I don't know,
(36:27):
courageous about about identity as a way to express yourself
through whatever, like through the way you talk about yourself
or the clothes you wear or whatever. But like, ultimately
it is very label gazing, and it adds to I
think adds to um malaise. I think it actually it
makes your It's like the more you start like yeah,
(36:50):
like talking about yourself and thinking about yourself along these lines,
it actually just exacerbates the problem that you're trying to solve.
So like I think a little bit of Porsche comes
through and that I mean, I I you know, like
I don't want to think that I'm totally you know,
but like she's just like I want this and I
don't know if I just want to have filled and
(37:11):
it's like, you know, it's just there's just something about
that that's just yeah, it's maybe it's yeah, maybe it's
ages of maybe I'm just like I've become the person
that makes you. But like I just when I was younger,
it was just like it's to me, I still feel
like it's like you mean to like move outside of yourself,
to like find courage and move outside of your own
(37:31):
you know, it's like your own navel gazing to really
then fully developed. You know. It's like if you're just
always looking inside and doing selfies and then calling yourself
a different thing, and it's all about the closure where
you know, it's like that that just feels like that's um,
that's going to be a dead End Road. So that's Porsche.
(37:52):
And what about the foursome of Harper, Ethan, Cameron, and Daphne.
I have to say, I think Oprey Plaza is my
favorite character in the whole show. I like her perpetual
state of on we that is now kind of morphed
into something else all together. And I love what you're
doing about jealousy with Ethan and uh and and Harper.
(38:17):
So tell me a little bit about Harper's character. Well,
I I Aubrey is a friend of mine and I
wanted to get her in the show, So a little
bit of it started with just like trying you know,
Aubrey is a very complicated, interesting person and and but
she's kind of known for this sort of dead like
the way she comes in at the beginning is kind
(38:37):
of like maybe the way people see her or what
thing they think that she's gonna be if she joins
the white lotus world, but then start to show these
other kind of more vulnerable sides and that her toughness
is a little bit of a front and and um,
but I liked, you know, like what I was trying
to do with that whole storyline is, you know, it
(38:58):
has to do with it kind of what Brad status
was as far as status, but like with secondly, like
whether we're always comparing ourselves in our relationship to other
people's relationships and what they have and what they it
seems like they you know, like what they do better,
what they do worse? And how how um? And I
was kind of playing a little bit at the beginning
(39:20):
where it's like you think, Okay, here's atar like NPR
listening like you know, liberal, like you know, like these
are the good guys that are gonna relate to. And
then this other couple they're so vacuous and you know,
it's like but then kind of playing a little bit
with which is maybe that other couple is like dysfunctional
and crazy. It's like, well they seem to be having
more fun, like you know, like that that that maybe
(39:42):
you know, like maybe it's not as as simple as
all of that. And and I don't want to give
away the ending, but yeah, how it all, How it
all lands is kind of a little bit of insight
into what I'm trying to I'm not saying, but like, yeah,
try to reveal something a little bit more unexpected. I
guess it also seems to be a bit of a
(40:04):
commentary on tech and finance bros. Mm hmm, yeah, Well
I just think new money, new money status um competition um,
that weird sort of dance you play when you're financially
dependent on someone, which it seems like Cameron is sort
(40:24):
of uh needs Ethan because he's made a boatload of
money in tech, right, there's something weird about that dynamic. Well,
I definitely I as a got a guy, I've been
privy to lots of conversations over the years. I live
like next to Brentwood, so there's just like you know,
the Brentwood country Mark where like lawyers and finance people
(40:48):
and whatever like people in our my industry or whatever,
and how they how their buddies. But like even in
the in every conversation, you just sense this peacocking and
like they're trying to figure out like where they stand
as far as who's making them more money, you know,
who makes like where Yeah, it's uh and so that's
always very funny to me because I I whatever and
(41:11):
it's yeah, so yeah, I was kind of playing with
like yeah, they're friends, but like are they friends? Like
what are they? Like? Like the competition is so heavy
that it's just like can they ever really be friends?
You know? Yeah, I find that whole sort of forsome fascinating,
and I love f Murray Abraham, which I mean, by
the way, what a what a feather in your cap
(41:33):
to get him to be in White Lotus. And then
you've got from the Sopranos, You've got Michael Imperial. Imperial
can help me with that, Michael Imperioli. Yeah, and who
plays his son. And then you have Adam DeMarco who
plays Albi. Uh so you have these three generations of
(41:55):
Italian Americans. Yeah, so yeah. Uh well, first of all, yes,
Murray and Michael are I'm huge I was huge fans
of prior and then working with them even more so. Uh,
Murray is like, you know, he's I think he's eighty
two years old, and he's so still like enamored with
(42:19):
the process and acting and storytelling and it's inspiring. And
Michael is one of the most He's in the pantheon
of like the easiest, most like generous actors I've ever
worked with. So like, those two are incredible. And then
of course Adam to Mark was one of the sweetest kids,
so like they were a great group, but like contextually
(42:39):
as far as the ideas of that, I just feel like,
you know, I wanted you know, it's kind of getting
into male sexuality and desire and male role, you know,
the role like you know, men's roles and when it
comes to romance and how they deal with the women,
and and just voicing the different um generational attitudes in
(43:00):
a kind of classic way. Uh, and and how they're
all kind of even though they're all sort of negotiating
with the new ways of talking about relationships and sex
and um uh and the interactions with women, that they're
all kind of trapped in a certain sense. To Derek,
(43:21):
who works on this podcast, who's one of the producers,
talked about how this season portrays a wide variety of
sexual relationships and entanglements and you were just talking about sex,
just as the opening title sequence portrays uh increasing debauchery
in the art as the rollicking theme song plays, the
show itself feels like it's revealing more and more about
(43:44):
the ways that humans experience their sexuality or suppress it
or given to it or both. Even these are Derek's observations,
and I'm curious what you think of that, and sort
of how you were trying to portray different just different
kinds of relationships, and for example, you portray sex workers,
(44:07):
you know, Lucia and Me a very differently than kind
of what we normally see in TV, books or movies. Well, I,
you know, with the title sequence, I basically said, you know,
it should start with these kind of pretty you know,
like like you're going into a palazzo and the beautiful walls,
and then you start seeing little things in the corners
(44:30):
and you realize there's this kind of mischievous or even
kind of creeper pervy like sexual things that are happening
in the margins. And then by the end of the
credit sequence, it's almost like a Bosch painting of like
just you know in the and where you know, the
carnality of it and in the desire of it is
(44:53):
is like front and center. And I felt like that
with the season two, which is like you start off
and it's like you a little bit of these repressed
people trying to like you know, figure out, like you know,
how to have a good vacation, and that like being
in the in the in sight to of Sicily and
in this kind of a little crucible that like the
(45:14):
desire and you start seeing desire and everyone and it's yeah,
it becomes a very horny show. And I just felt
like it was like especially like you know, like and
as far as like yeah, I mean and I yeah,
you know, I I don't. I don't think I'll always
write stories like this. It is not certainly my wheelhouse
like directing scenes of like intimacy between people and like
getting people nude and stuff. It's just like I was like,
(45:37):
you know, like I was like, this is not something
that I was like, whatever you guys want to do,
like what's thankfully you know, when you hire actors that
are exhibitionists, they're often less inhibited than I am, so
like they're like you want me to take my top off?
Uh yeah, sure if that's good, You sure that's okay? Yeah,
(45:57):
So like so yeah, so that was but I and I, um,
but I do feel like it was like it's fun
to show I actually think it's fun to show women
horny horny women, because I feel like that sometimes is
something that like, you know, a lot of times in
in in drama, it's like they're either victimized or virginal
or like I don't know, it's there or is it
(46:18):
or or it's like this kind of like you know, um,
like they'll talk it's like sex in the city. It's
like it's it's very like talky, but like you know
where you're actually feeling the desire and feeling the um
you know. It's like and you know, to me, that
just feels true to life in a way. I guess
(46:38):
I don't know how else to put it, but anyway,
so um so yeah, So I just thought it was like,
let's do sex, let's just go all in and and
that was kind of the I was like, if we're
gonna go all in, it's like by the end, you
just want to feel like, yeah, the animal in them,
in each of these um human characters. So this is
the big question. Is there going to be a white
(47:00):
it is three? Is there going to be a third season? Yes,
they picked us up for a third season, and yeah
where Mike, where, Well, I want to go to Asia,
That's what I think. Look, I mean it feels like,
you know, you started like America, then you do Europe.
It feels like the next one would be I don't know,
I don't know why that feels that. It's just like
(47:21):
I'm trying to think like like, yeah, where does Katie
current go on vacation? Where you tell me? Actually, I
you know what. I ran into you once on vacation
where I was in Yeah, I was in Berlin, staying
at a classic old hotel in the middle Berlin, and
I forget the name of it, and you were staying
there at the same time with I ran into you.
(47:41):
I ran I think we were like there the same
days or whatever, because I ran into you. You were
very friendly all you seem like you're having a good time.
I was with my husband, who still good great, and yeah,
you guys. I don't know if you were there for
work or vacation or whatever, but you were. We were
there for vacation. And you know, Mike husband John is
a huge Survivor nut. I mean, he has seen every season.
(48:06):
He finds it fascinating, so he loves you from Survivor.
That's cool. I think it was prior to me during
Survivor you were it might I think it was what
didn't I got married in so it was probably it
was like after that it was like, yeah it was
sixteen maybe, yeah, I did survive Okay, Well now here
(48:33):
you seemed very um, Yeah, you seem like you had
happy energy. I liked I liked you from just the vibe.
That's so nice? Well is I don't want to spoil
the finale, but do you think we'll see Tanya in
the third season? I love well, I love, I love
writing Tanya and I love I love We're going to Jennifer,
(48:55):
So definitely could be. You can't tell me. If you tell,
do you, you'd have to kill me, right, Mike, Well,
what do you mean you want? Well, you never know.
Could be I'm not telling you, you know, I don't
want to ruin it. A huge thank you to my guests,
(49:17):
Mike White. I imagine you're all tuning in this Sunday,
December eleven for the finale to find out who makes
it out of the White Lotus alive. If not, whenever
you're listening to this, Happy Benjene. Next Question with Katie
Kirk is a production of I Heart Media and Katie
Kurk Media. The executive producers Army Katie Kuric and Courtney Litz.
(49:41):
The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements
and Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by
Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to
sign up for my morning newsletter, Wake Up Paul, go
to Katie Couric dot com. You can also find me
at Katie correct on Instagram and all my social media channels.
(50:03):
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kirk, and this is next question.
I am super psyched you guys, because my guest today
is the creator of the show everyone is talking about
The White Lotus. I'm obsessed. In its second season, the
series follows a group of wealthy vacationers and the people
(00:20):
who work at a stunning seaside resort in Sicily. Welcome
to the White Lotus. I am Valentina, the roysorts manager.
How is it both right? It was? I mean, I'm
impressed that you're even here. Why are you impressed? It's
a long trip from Los Angeles and you're quite old. No, anyway,
(00:41):
Isabella here, we'll take you up to the account and
bring you to your your beautiful groom and after you
a glass of prof thank you. Before the luxe world
of The White Lotus, Mike White spent much of his
time on The Proof Are creating characters who were two loners, weirdos,
(01:04):
and wanderers in movies like Chuck and Buck, The Year
of the Dog with Molly Shannon, The Good Girl with
Jennifer Anniston, and School of Rock with Jack Black, popular
movies in their own right, but nothing like The Mean
producing headline driving conspiracy filled chatter surrounding the White lotus.
(01:26):
It seems like it's a new, slightly uncomfortable position for
Mike to be in. I see myself as an underdog
and I and I'm always like that, Like I'm always
going to see myself as like somebody who has to
prove something. So like, even in success, I still feel
like I don't know, Yeah, I'm not. I don't feel
like an impostor, but I feel like I'm I don't know,
(01:47):
like you know, I slipped in through the side door
or something. Today we dive into all of it, the
making of the show, the anatomy of those crazy characters,
Mike's childhood, and how he really feels about his newfound fame.
So let me just first start by asking what does
(02:08):
it feel like to be Mike White these days? Well?
What a question? I uh, you know. I we honestly
just finished the final episode. We had a very crazy
shooting schedule that because of COVID and because of weather
and Italy and a lot of different reasons, we went
(02:31):
over our shoot and so I thought HBO would give
us a little break and let us air later than
what we were expecting, And instead they were like we
need it when we need it, and so it cut
into our post. So I was editing and finishing the
show up until like ten days ago. So I've just
been like, I'm I'm living in Hawaii right now for
(02:52):
tax reasons. There's a good incentive for them to do
the post here, which is great. But I soa I've
been kind of in a bubble. I'm just been finishing
the show, uh, living on an island, and so yeah,
it's I don't know, I don't I don't know what
it's like to but it, but it doesn't I'm not
getting It's not like I'm it's not like I'm walking
(03:13):
around l A and like getting a high five from
people or anything like that. So it's it's it, but
I'm but I'm excited that it's sentence that that people
are watching the show and liking it, and I'm definitely
getting that. But it's but it's just pretty I'm still
kind of living on an island and living in a bubble. Well.
Having said that, though, Mike, let's get real. I mean
(03:33):
you are sort of the envy of everyone in Hollywood,
and this is something that you've talked about kind of
willingly in an article you did in in Vulture. You
talked about Hollywood, Who's up, Who's down, kind of how
people are all envious of one another and that you're
uber competitive. So have you been have you said all that, Mike,
(03:56):
have you been able to take a moment and it's
kind of say the bomb? Oh my god, No, no
that's not me, but but yes, I I am. I'm
you know, it's honestly, Katie, I feel like i'm you know,
I'm fifty two years old, and I've been doing this
(04:16):
since I was twenty two years old, and so and
I've had, you know, a lot of things made, and
a lot of things that I thought were successful, but
not at this yeah, with this kind of reaction. And
so I just sort of feel like to use the like,
since I'm in Hawaii, like an analogy that fits here,
which is like I feel like I'm a surfer who's
been out in the ocean for a long time and
(04:38):
like I caught a wave. I don't know why this wave,
but like you know, obviously I I'm old enough and
have had a long enough career to see it as yeah,
a blessing and but also something that you can't you know,
I I would never try to chase this reaction because
I just it's just it's just you just never know
(05:00):
what's gonna yeah, what people are gonna respond to. So
I'm excited. I'll take your word for it that that's that.
It's it's that, Yeah, I don't know. I'm obviously I'm happy.
It's like I mean, I I was like at the
age where I was just like can I keep doing?
You know, like it was like maybe the old Gray
Mary what she used to be, And I'm gonna like
so like it's nice to have a little like uh,
(05:21):
it's it's it's definitely fun. I'm very excited, but I
don't know whatever. Well, let's talk about the genesis of
White lotus um. I was at a party and I
heard from a couple of Hollywood types that HBO had
access to a hotel that was empty in Maui during
(05:43):
COVID and came to you and said, hey, Mike White,
can you write a show that takes place in a hotel?
Is that how it started? It? Kind of? It definitely
was like they need they had a lot of projects
that had fallen apart because of COVID, and so they
just they knew why I was kind of fast and
that like I was good with dialogue, and that like
(06:04):
maybe a show that was very that I could write
a show in a bubble that was like that would
maybe be immune from some of the COVID uh issues
that they had come upon. And so so they asked
me to do it, like can you come up with
a bubble show? But they didn't have a I was like,
it was my idea to do it in a hotel.
And I I was like, and I'm you know, I
(06:25):
have a place in Kuaie and I'm like, and I
knew that there were all these hotels that were just
yeah defunct and they were just head shut down because
of COVID, And I was like, we could grab one
of those hotels in bed in Hawaii. But they didn't
even really want us to go to Hawaii because that
was already to um treacherous potential issues with COVID. They
wanted us like they probably would have been having even
(06:45):
found like a hotel and like Lancaster, like you know
across the street from Casey Boys's house or something, right,
So like so yeah, I just um uh, so yeah,
I had to push for Hawaii. But yeah, it was
kind of a mix a mix of that, and tell
me a little bit about how you were inspired to
write really both seasons, but let's start with the first.
I mean, when you sit down to write this, Mike,
(07:09):
what were you trying to accomplish? I know that's kind
of a big broad question, but I'm just curious. You've
got a blank screen, a blank computer screen, and you
decide I want to show class differences. I wanted to
show really interesting characters. I think one of the things,
I one of many things I love about this show
(07:30):
is it feels very current. You know, sometimes things get
made and they come out a couple of years later
or even a year later, and they don't feel oh
karent or of the moment. And I think White Load
has felt so tuned into current sensibilities. So just talk
(07:51):
to me a little bit about your thought process when
you put a finger to keyboard. Are you talking about
like the like the first season? Yeah, sure, and we'll
talk about the second. Yeah. The first season it was
I I you know, I've spent a lot of time
in Hawaii, so you know, some of and a lot
of the in Hawaii, there's definitely like two classes. There's
(08:14):
the you know, the tourists and the moneyed people who
come and like you know, have their vacations here. And
then there's the service class of people who you know,
can be at any you know, some of them are
do very well financially, but they're all servicing these tourists,
and so you you know, if you hear long enough,
you get like this. You know, the I obviously know
(08:37):
the tourist side of it because I've been there, and
I you know, it's like and a lot of my
friends who visit, you know, so I get that part
of it, but they also you know, the service side
of it. And I just felt like, you know, there's
something about doing you know, because obviously Hotel or like
Fantasy Island, you think Love Vote, Like there's like there's
like a history of these kind of shows in this
kind of you know, trying to genre exactly, but to
(08:59):
do something that is a little bit more well observed,
and that kind of gets it. You know. I just
thought it was like an interesting about how money, who
has the money impacts relationships both obviously from the server
and the you know, customer, but also you know, the
husband and the wife and the father and the child
and and and so it just felt like maybe as
(09:22):
a theme that seemed rich, and so that was kind
of initial impulse because I was like, we're gonna be
in a hotel. You know, nobody can leave. It's kind
of has to be a crucible everyone, you know, And
so yeah, it kind of built out from there. And
then it was just like years of maybe years of
too much being online and like Twitter speak and like
it was just like I was like, like I would
just started freestyling as far as just like trying to
(09:44):
get at some of the I don't know the kind
of contemporary language and stuff like that. It seems to
me you're almost like a an anthropologist kind of discovering
and exposing human behavior. And I when I watch I
wonder how much of this did Mike learn from being
on reality shows how people act? Because obviously you were
(10:07):
in Survivor. On Survivor, I understand you're a good friend
of Jeff Probes. Do you love reality television? You were
on the Amazing Race with your dad. So did some
of those experience help inform your writing for White Lotus?
Am I getting too weird on these questions? No? Not
at all. I I mean I actually what I loved
(10:28):
when I when I you know, because I was obviously
a writer before the big reality boom, which I think
started like in two thousand ish. Um. And then uh
but like you know, you show like Survivor came along
and you were like, wow, it was showing people, you know,
one minute they would be very irritating or very petty,
and then the next minute they would be very um,
(10:50):
vulnerable and your heart goes out to them, and then
they could be courageous, and I don't know, it was
just like you would see these these I mean because
they were people. It was like fully dimensional humans. And
even though maybe the format could be formula, uh, there
was something I just as a writer, I was like,
this is this is you know, this this makes you
(11:11):
want to raise your game as far as like when
you are creating characters that people are watching, because it
felt like they were always surprising and you were you know,
you just you There wasn't some internal integrity obviously, but
there was also all of these colors and so it
I've always wanted to try to write characters that could match,
you know, some of the great you know, personalities that
(11:34):
you see in reality TV. So yeah, I do think
that's a that's a part of it. And I just
think when I was very young, starting very early, I
was I was always um, you know, I had Sam
Shepherd's mother was my second grade teacher, and she loved
her son and I loved her, and so it was
the first time that I realized, oh, people were play rights.
(11:56):
So very early on I was writing little plays and so, like,
I've always listened, and I've always been interested in how
people talk, because I've always thought about things in terms
of dialogue, and then also how what they say about
themselves doesn't always necessarily match what they think and doesn't
always match what they are going to do, and so
that's always been interesting to me, and so I've always
(12:19):
been kind of an observer of of that. I guess
I think your childhood, though, in addition to being taught
by Sam Shepherd's mother in second grade, which is a
cool little fact at Trivia fact Um, you grew up
in an evangelical household in Pasadena, and yet you were
always skeptical about religion. What was your childhood like, Mike, Well,
(12:42):
my parents were very loving and I loved. I had
a very nurturing, positive, um nuclear family. My dad was
a minister, and we were part of a bigger, kind
of more evangelical religious community, and it was there that
community where it was death really felt. I always felt
a little alien. I never really drunk the kool aid,
(13:04):
as they say, and I I always yeah, it was
there where you I think that I, you know, some
of the you know, part of drama is is yeah,
getting past then, you know, the facade and trying to
see what people really do and what people really are like,
but beyond what they say they do. And I think
(13:26):
there's a lot of hypocrisy and a lot of those
smaller evangelical communities about you know, certainly around sex and
around how people you know, think about you know, what
the motivations for behavior are and stuff, and so I
I have so it always I always felt like I
was like I always wanted to know. I was like,
what's the what's the real you know, like I've always
(13:47):
been like, yeah, interested in like what really how what
people do and how that that's sometimes not really in
line with how they present themselves. I think that shows
up in a lot of your work, Mike. I was
rewatching Brad's status, and I think that was very effective
in terms of this inner turmoil brad a k ah
(14:10):
Ben Stiller is experiencing, comparing him his station in life
to all of his college friends who were doing much better.
And I think that external internal conflict is something it
seems to me that you you go back to. And
I read that when you were eleven, your dad came
(14:34):
out to your family. He was a minister, as you mentioned,
but also a gross writer for people like Jerry Fallwell
and Tammy Baker, and you once said finding out about
your dad's sexuality is quote the key to everything I write.
How so well just in the sense of what I
was just talking about, which is, you know, uh, it's
(14:55):
a big run to be pulled from under you where
you know, you've think your family is this thing, and
your dad is this thing, and he's a minister, and
then you realize there's this other, whole other side, which
isn't necessarily a dark side, it's just a truth. And
the truth is in contradiction to what he's supposed to
(15:15):
be in the world. And and so I think, you know,
exploring that and and and and I think that that, yeah,
that just just to me, it just you know, obviously
it hit home in a literal way, just that you know,
we are more complicated than we present ourselves, and that
(15:35):
we put are certain face to our community, and that
that maybe in drama and showing some of that. Obviously
there's a titillation part of it, but then there's like
maybe some kind of solace to know that, like everybody
is grappling with this, like that the person that we
want to be and the person that the world wants
us to be, we're not always that and that's okay
(15:56):
and that's human and and that kind of thing. You
went to Wesleyan, I know, and you said you finally
found your people there. So how did Wesleyan affect you,
not only as a person but as a writer. Well,
I I was in a kind of more homogeneous community
(16:17):
growing up in high school, you know, and grade school,
and so going to Wesleyan, you know, it was a
very open minded liberal community in general, and also just
these kids were so sophisticated. It was like I was
just like I just felt like I was like like
behind the curve, you know. I was kind of a
self taught. I mean, I was just I mean I
(16:38):
went to a good school, but it was like as
far as culture and stuff, I was just I was,
you know, I like, I had my own like subscription
to the New Yorker for I was, I was just
trying to find my way through the culture. And so,
like I would, I went to Wesley and all these
you know, a lot of I mean, it was a
lot of New York Jewish kids who are like very
like fully baked and fully like you know, you know,
(16:59):
like new fancy people. And I was just like I
kind of was just I felt like a rube. But
I got but I was so enamored by the yeah,
the whole vibe there and and still to this day,
a lot of those kids I met there are are
my my friend group. And when you when you graduated
(17:20):
from Wesleyan, were you really interested in play writing or
just writing in general? Well, I wanted to be a playwright.
I wanted to be Sam Shepherd. I went from California
to Yeah, to Wesley and and I was like I
didn't have socks and I didn't realize how cold it
was back East. I was like, this is too cold
for me. Like I so I was like, I was like,
(17:42):
my plan was to go to New York was starting playwright.
But I was like, I don't know if I could
handle this weather, I was like, so, I like kind
of I fell into the wrong crowd and came back
to l A I was started writing for for movies
and TV. After the break, Let's go to Sicily Bowie.
(18:10):
When you look back at your quote unquote body of
work like White, do you notice any kind of thread
that connects a lot of these stories when you think
about it, Um, I don't know, me I have a thread,
I don't know, and they're I mean, it's an idiosyncratic
(18:31):
body of work and I and I'm proud. I like
I one thing that I always was like, I'm not
going to take myself so seriously that I miss out
on anything like and That's how That's why I did Survivor.
That's why I did amazing Race. It's why I've taken
jobs that I don't know. It's like, you know, like
I always thought that I I mean, if now now
(18:54):
I do sound like whatever, I just you know, it's
like I always thought I was talented. I always felt
like I had some in the offer. I always felt
like I was, you know, like I like you said
I was. You know, I've said I'm competitive, like I
would see peers who like, you know, caught the wave
and got a lot of like attention and success, and
I was like, I could do that. I'm better, I'm
(19:14):
I'm as good or better than those people. And and
you know, of course that's the that's the that's the
gumption that you need to get through Hollywood by like
and so um so. But at the same time, I
was just like, I'm not gonna be I met people
early on who had careers that I admired, and a
lot of them seem miserable or they seem like they
(19:36):
were really um in a um you know, protective of
their you know, like they I don't know, they that
in order to be serious taken seriously, they had to
kind of have a serious vibe. And it's like we're
in the we're in the we're in the you know.
I I think our work is meaningful, but like we
(19:56):
are in the in the sort of we're in the
kids section in a sense, know what I mean. We're
not we're not you know, we're not hearing cancer. Yeah,
we're not hearing cancer or not in the policy we're
not policy wants. We're not It's like we are you know,
we're in the we're in the entertainment section, you know
what I mean. So it's like and so I just
was like, I just don't I want to. I want
(20:16):
to be successful and I want people to think I'm talented,
but I also I want to I want to live
a life that I look back on and the life
itself was cool and then and the things I did
were cool, and it's not just my work. So so
like I look at those all those different things and
that it's like it's it's an eclectic it's like it's
kind of a hot mess, like a bunch of credits,
(20:40):
but I each one of them. I like I got
different things out of and and and yeah, I had
served different purposes for me. But right now you are
in a very different position, like because I'm sure everyone
in Hollywood is saying that Mike White he can write
his own ticket. Now he can kind of do whatever
he wants, which I think makes you a little uncomfortable. Well,
(21:04):
I don't know. I feel like this is like it's
like I'm waking up in Hawaiians like Haiti Kurt is
here to tell you everything has changed. Everything is I
feel like your therapist, Like no, well, I I appreciate
you saying that, and I and I, you know, I
actually feel like I if that's true. I feel like
(21:26):
I feel like I'm like somebody who's been ready to
be at bat for a long time. And I've done it,
you know, like you know, and I've I've done things.
I'm proud of it. But like I've it's always been
swimming upstream to get the financing, to get the actor,
to get the thing to the you know, like it's
it's and that's part of the fun, I guess, but
it's also part it's there's wear and tear. So it's like,
(21:49):
if it's an easier road to do the things I
want to do, I'm ready to do more and I
have more to say, and I, you know, like and
it's and and this was hard. It took a lot
out of me, especially this last season. But this is
what I've always wanted to do and and and and
so I'm grateful that I have the opportunity to do it.
(22:10):
Are you having fun, Mike? I am having fun. I'm
having fun talking to you. I'm hearing why I'm you know,
I've gotten through the season and everyone's you know, chatting up,
so that's fun. But I also I need to reboot
a little bit. I don't have a lot of gas
in the tank, so I need to figure out how
to whatever unplug and refresh or something. Let's talk about
(22:35):
this current season of White Lotus, because I'm worried, Mike,
I'm worried about the characters. I'm White. I'm really worried.
I'm I'm really worried. I'm worried about Porscha. I'm really
worried about Tanya. I'm worried about is it Albie? I mean,
I'm worried about everyone. What are you doing to us? Mike? Well,
(23:00):
the fun thing about Yeah, what I'd like about this
format is that, like I like, I kind of like
a slow simmer, you know, so it's it's fun. Well,
you know, I think the pleasure of this one, and
certainly this season and last season two, I think is like,
you know, you hope you create very credible characters, and
(23:20):
you create a situation that like you're like it passes
the bullish ship detector to some degree and that and
then and then just start to like cook up the gap,
you know, like turn up the heat just so it's like,
you know, it's like almost like when you're on the
yeah roller coaster and you're like chi chi ch and
you're like going up and you're like this is gonna
(23:41):
go really far down, like we are really going chick.
So yeah, And I think the finale hopefully will satisfy
the Catharsis And I mean, yeah, there's gonna be a
lot of there's gonna be a lot of gnashing of
teeth and it's yes, but but yeah, you should be worried.
(24:02):
I keep thinking about that story of the woman that
fell that they threw off the mountain. I also keep
worrying about the the wife of the the cheesy finance
guy saying, Oh, you're gonna die here. They're gonna have
to drag you out of this place. I keep thinking, oh,
(24:24):
what does that mean? I have my right to pick
up on some of these things. I mean, well, some
of them are intentional to build the for the finale,
and some are a little bit mrrects so that people think, yeah,
you want to You want people to like feel like
they're you know, Miss Marple and they've got the clues,
but you need extra clues. You know, it's not so
(24:47):
obvious what happens. But I think people I think even
if you guess you're gonna be surprised, but just how
it all falls apart um. I love the way you
use art interchangeably. First of all, obviously you're obsessed with
kind of those water shots, which I really liked to
but I love the I love the painting, the artifacts,
(25:09):
the architecture, the shots of the porcelain head, of that
same porcelain head guy that you keep going back to
again and again. Tell me your thought process about using
that as a way to propel the story forward or
to foreshadow things, or to echo what might be going
on at the time. Can you tell like that very intimly. Yeah,
(25:34):
that's awesome. Yeah, well the tested him where I was
when I got there, I was like, because they're everywhere
in sicily those heads and the story behind it has
to and the reason for the whole season was because
these heads. I was like, because I would go around like,
these heads are everywhere, and it was about adultery and
violence and sexual jealousy, and I was like that just
(25:54):
I had a different idea for the second season. I
was like, no, we've got to do an operatic like
itally in sexual jealousy storyline, I mean, and it's like
that's that's what people want to see anyway. But also
this is the part of my job that people should
be jealous of, which is I go to Sicily. I'm
telling them I'm doing white Lotus. All of the rich
(26:16):
like Sicilians who have these pilazzos are willing to let
me come in and like snoop around their house. I
got to see all these and so like two of
them ended up in the show. But like you walk
around and you have no idea that behind this, like
you know, edifice is like this incredible polazzo that they're
all there. A lot of them are hidden, It's like
(26:37):
and then to be able to like get access to
those and see them, and I was like, well we
gotta Like so when we would get into these places,
I was like, we gotta shoot. We gotta just like
fire hose this down, Like we gotta get every piece
of art on the walls, like we gotta do push
ins on all of the you know. So for someone
who like you know, likes interior, you know whatever, like
these kind of like classic Max the List, eclectic, like
(27:01):
you know, like rich, you know, Palazza is like I
was just like I was in heaven. So I just
felt like I had to make the most of it.
And I mean it must have been an extraordinary place
to film. And is that a real hotel? Was that
hotel vacant as well? Or tell me about the location.
I want to go to that hotel? Yeah you should.
It's it's the Sandamnico Palace, which is like a very
(27:23):
historical um. It was originally a convent and thenn turned
into a hotel, but it's been a hotel for quite
a lot a long time, and Lave and Turo was
shot there. It's like it's it's a it's amazing because obviously,
you know, I got we we looked at a lot
of different hotels and it's just like, first the convent
part of it just gives it this added kind of
you know vibe, and then you know, you see these
(27:46):
terraced hills with all these different you know villas, you
know that are so classic and European, and and then
you have the Greek theater on one side, and then
the Ionian Sea in front, and then the mount now
which is literally you know, belching smoke half the time.
And he was like, this is if we're going to
go to Europe, this is what you go for you
(28:06):
go for these views. So it's definitely I I highly
recommend Tarmina and Sicily itself. It's it's like you really
can't spend enough time there. It's like as each you know,
it was just after a few days it was like
I was like, Okay, we've done the sightseeing, but like
it's just like then there's just this like vibe over
time that just really seduces you. Did you find Luccia
(28:28):
and Mia in Sicily? No, we we found them in Rome. Uh.
Simona who plays Lucia is actually from Naples and um
MIA's from Rome. But we had a great set of
casting directors from Italy who brought us a lot of options.
And those those two and Sabrina and Patria Tory who
(28:51):
plays the manager, they're all they were all incredible and
so fun to work with. Yeah, they were fun to watch,
I'll tell you that. And I know that you have
said that the show satirizes wealthy, white privilege, and you've
said that your intention was to quote unquote poke the Bear,
but through a humanist perspective. So help us out with that, Mike,
what did you mean, um, well, poke the Bear? I
(29:14):
don't you know obviously you're I'm satirizing privilege, but you know,
especially with the first season, I also was poking the
bear as far as some of the I don't know,
like I wanted to give voice to both you know,
the critiques of of the patriarchy and all of these
things that you know, we we are discussing, you know,
(29:37):
and have been discussing with fervor the last couple of years,
but also give voice to the people that are you know,
it's like, you know, I haven't hearing you know, like
like some of the conversations that I'm hearing that people
don't want to say in public but like behind closed doors,
and try to you know, like not you know, make
it so it you're kind of walking the line where okay,
(29:59):
well that's sort of is a fair point, and then like,
oh yeah, but you're saying that because this is you know,
you're you're defending, you know, you're on your heels, So
like trying to make it so it's not so such
a simple, predigested conversation and and and have those conversations
be um lively and like you know, multi layered, multi
(30:22):
layered enough that like people feel like, oh they're they're
being seen and then and it's still challenged and so
and that was that was what I was trying to do.
And you know, like and and the fact that like
people on both sides of some of these arguments, like
champion the show or also like hated the show, made
me feel like I did my job. Yeah, so you're
(30:44):
you're really showing some of those tricky conversations that people
do have behind closed doors. And I think that that's
what contributes, Mike to the realness of the show and
the dialogue that you know, you feel like this is
what people really are talking about, and that you're not
following some kind of prescriptive dialogue to be on the
(31:09):
right side of any issue. Yeah, because I don't even
I don't even It's like, ultimately, it's like, I don't
think it's the dramatist job too. It's I don't think
it's it's a message conveying machine. If I was trying
to make a message, then I would be communicating in
a different medium or a different kind of Uh. It's
(31:29):
really about giving voice of the different people who exist
in our world and try, you know, and do my
best to to make it feel like it's a you know,
a dimensional conversation after the break, why Mike spends so
much time in the gray areas of human behavior. I
(31:59):
know that lot of people have taken note that your characters,
so many of them are just unlikable or complicated, or
there are certain things you like in certain things you
really don't like, so you feel conflicted. And I feel
very conflicted about Tanya. I really disliked her at the
end of last season, and now I don't dislike her.
(32:22):
I feel sorry for her because she's quite competitive pathetic,
but she's also sort of lovable too. Yeah, well, I
I mean yeah, I mean well, Jennifer Coolidge is lovable period,
and and so she brings the loveability for sure. But yeah,
I do think it's like I, especially the first season,
(32:45):
you know, I wanted there to be two tracks, which is,
you know, her as the underdog who's looking for love
and dealing with the fact that her mom died and
you know the pain of that, and so on one
side you're rooting for her, and then there's this other
story where she's kind of dangling this carrot over this
other woman's you know, and future and making her feel
(33:09):
like there's hope for something and then she's kind of
a flake. And that just seems very true to life
to for me to some of these women that I've
met and or you know man or too about just
like where you know, they see themselves as a victim
in some sense and and the savior or savior or
savior yeah, and and they don't see how that they
can also be victimizing and that they that they yeah,
(33:33):
that they they have agency and that they are yeah,
that that they are somehow blowing it. Let let me
ask you about some of the other characters in kind
of a rapid fire way. We talked about Mia and Lucia,
and we talked about Valentina. Um. Let's talk about Porsche
and I love this discussion online about Porsche's clothes. Have
(33:56):
you seen this, Mike, that she dresses like good gen
Z Threat Store, Like nothing really goes together, like it
doesn't look good or not. I mean, what do you
think of all that? It's so funny. Well, a lot
of the credit goes to um, I mean that was
her character on the page, But Hailey Lou Richardson, who's
(34:17):
the actress, and then Alex Bavert, who is our costum designer,
you know, are the true geniuses behind her looks. And
you know, I'm I'm a little bit like women's fashion
is not my um go too, but I but I
but I did weigh in. I did weigh in. I approved,
I supervised, but I uh but um yeah, I just
(34:41):
think that you know, to me, Porscha is somebody who
I see this a lot, and this was something that
I feel like online I think is the thing that
I I find interesting is that there's a lot of
people who are like rich, you know, like bad bad
rich people. Rich people are terrible, you know, like it's
this like this kind of like you know that that
I that I'm allowed to make the show as long
(35:02):
as I show how bad rich people are. That the
moral of the story is that rich people are better something.
And it's like and and and obviously you know there
is there's truth to that, like a lot of rich
people are fighting up the world and so like I
you know, but but I also you know you and
so like I guess Porsche was like a vehicle to
(35:23):
explore how she sees in Tanya all of these bad
character traits and that she you know, if and if
she had what Tanya had, she would have her life together,
and she would be she you know, like she would
be She wouldn't do it better than Tanya. But you
see how in her own way she's she is kind
of lost in the In a similar way, she's actually
(35:44):
kind of a mini me to Tanya and a fat
Tanya tells, Porsche, you remind me a lot of myself
when I was younger. But I also think Porsche is
very gen Z and that she's sort of a little
bit lost and just doesn't know what she wants to do.
She doesn't really have any goals. She's trying to figure
(36:05):
it out. Did that I mean, do you know young
people like that that kind of helped shape that character? Yeah,
I do think. I mean again, I don't want to
get crucified, but I do think I've noticed in this
younger generation a desire to try on identities and and
and feel like there's something like, like, I don't know,
(36:27):
courageous about about identity as a way to express yourself
through whatever, like through the way you talk about yourself
or the clothes you wear or whatever. But like, ultimately
it is very label gazing, and it adds to I
think adds to um malaise. I think it actually it
makes your It's like the more you start like yeah,
(36:50):
like talking about yourself and thinking about yourself along these lines,
it actually just exacerbates the problem that you're trying to solve.
So like I think a little bit of Porsche comes
through and that I mean, I I you know, like
I don't want to think that I'm totally you know,
but like she's just like I want this and I
don't know if I just want to have filled and
(37:11):
it's like, you know, it's just there's just something about
that that's just yeah, it's maybe it's yeah, maybe it's
ages of maybe I'm just like I've become the person
that makes you. But like I just when I was younger,
it was just like it's to me, I still feel
like it's like you mean to like move outside of yourself,
to like find courage and move outside of your own
(37:31):
you know, it's like your own navel gazing to really
then fully developed. You know. It's like if you're just
always looking inside and doing selfies and then calling yourself
a different thing, and it's all about the closure where
you know, it's like that that just feels like that's um,
that's going to be a dead End Road. So that's Porsche.
(37:52):
And what about the foursome of Harper, Ethan, Cameron, and Daphne.
I have to say, I think Oprey Plaza is my
favorite character in the whole show. I like her perpetual
state of on we that is now kind of morphed
into something else all together. And I love what you're
doing about jealousy with Ethan and uh and and Harper.
(38:17):
So tell me a little bit about Harper's character. Well,
I I Aubrey is a friend of mine and I
wanted to get her in the show, So a little
bit of it started with just like trying you know,
Aubrey is a very complicated, interesting person and and but
she's kind of known for this sort of dead like
the way she comes in at the beginning is kind
(38:37):
of like maybe the way people see her or what
thing they think that she's gonna be if she joins
the white lotus world, but then start to show these
other kind of more vulnerable sides and that her toughness
is a little bit of a front and and um,
but I liked, you know, like what I was trying
to do with that whole storyline is, you know, it
(38:58):
has to do with it kind of what Brad status
was as far as status, but like with secondly, like
whether we're always comparing ourselves in our relationship to other
people's relationships and what they have and what they it
seems like they you know, like what they do better,
what they do worse? And how how um? And I
was kind of playing a little bit at the beginning
(39:20):
where it's like you think, Okay, here's atar like NPR
listening like you know, liberal, like you know, like these
are the good guys that are gonna relate to. And
then this other couple they're so vacuous and you know,
it's like but then kind of playing a little bit
with which is maybe that other couple is like dysfunctional
and crazy. It's like, well they seem to be having
more fun, like you know, like that that that maybe
(39:42):
you know, like maybe it's not as as simple as
all of that. And and I don't want to give
away the ending, but yeah, how it all, How it
all lands is kind of a little bit of insight
into what I'm trying to I'm not saying, but like, yeah,
try to reveal something a little bit more unexpected. I
guess it also seems to be a bit of a
(40:04):
commentary on tech and finance bros. Mm hmm, yeah, Well
I just think new money, new money status um competition um,
that weird sort of dance you play when you're financially
dependent on someone, which it seems like Cameron is sort
(40:24):
of uh needs Ethan because he's made a boatload of
money in tech, right, there's something weird about that dynamic. Well,
I definitely I as a got a guy, I've been
privy to lots of conversations over the years. I live
like next to Brentwood, so there's just like you know,
the Brentwood country Mark where like lawyers and finance people
(40:48):
and whatever like people in our my industry or whatever,
and how they how their buddies. But like even in
the in every conversation, you just sense this peacocking and
like they're trying to figure out like where they stand
as far as who's making them more money, you know,
who makes like where Yeah, it's uh and so that's
always very funny to me because I I whatever and
(41:11):
it's yeah, so yeah, I was kind of playing with
like yeah, they're friends, but like are they friends? Like
what are they? Like? Like the competition is so heavy
that it's just like can they ever really be friends?
You know? Yeah, I find that whole sort of forsome fascinating,
and I love f Murray Abraham, which I mean, by
the way, what a what a feather in your cap
(41:33):
to get him to be in White Lotus. And then
you've got from the Sopranos, You've got Michael Imperial. Imperial
can help me with that, Michael Imperioli. Yeah, and who
plays his son. And then you have Adam DeMarco who
plays Albi. Uh so you have these three generations of
(41:55):
Italian Americans. Yeah, so yeah. Uh well, first of all, yes,
Murray and Michael are I'm huge I was huge fans
of prior and then working with them even more so. Uh,
Murray is like, you know, he's I think he's eighty
two years old, and he's so still like enamored with
(42:19):
the process and acting and storytelling and it's inspiring. And
Michael is one of the most He's in the pantheon
of like the easiest, most like generous actors I've ever
worked with. So like, those two are incredible. And then
of course Adam to Mark was one of the sweetest kids,
so like they were a great group, but like contextually
(42:39):
as far as the ideas of that, I just feel like,
you know, I wanted you know, it's kind of getting
into male sexuality and desire and male role, you know,
the role like you know, men's roles and when it
comes to romance and how they deal with the women,
and and just voicing the different um generational attitudes in
(43:00):
a kind of classic way. Uh, and and how they're
all kind of even though they're all sort of negotiating
with the new ways of talking about relationships and sex
and um uh and the interactions with women, that they're
all kind of trapped in a certain sense. To Derek,
(43:21):
who works on this podcast, who's one of the producers,
talked about how this season portrays a wide variety of
sexual relationships and entanglements and you were just talking about sex,
just as the opening title sequence portrays uh increasing debauchery
in the art as the rollicking theme song plays, the
show itself feels like it's revealing more and more about
(43:44):
the ways that humans experience their sexuality or suppress it
or given to it or both. Even these are Derek's observations,
and I'm curious what you think of that, and sort
of how you were trying to portray different just different
kinds of relationships, and for example, you portray sex workers,
(44:07):
you know, Lucia and Me a very differently than kind
of what we normally see in TV, books or movies. Well, I,
you know, with the title sequence, I basically said, you know,
it should start with these kind of pretty you know,
like like you're going into a palazzo and the beautiful walls,
and then you start seeing little things in the corners
(44:30):
and you realize there's this kind of mischievous or even
kind of creeper pervy like sexual things that are happening
in the margins. And then by the end of the
credit sequence, it's almost like a Bosch painting of like
just you know in the and where you know, the
carnality of it and in the desire of it is
(44:53):
is like front and center. And I felt like that
with the season two, which is like you start off
and it's like you a little bit of these repressed
people trying to like you know, figure out, like you know,
how to have a good vacation, and that like being
in the in the in sight to of Sicily and
in this kind of a little crucible that like the
(45:14):
desire and you start seeing desire and everyone and it's yeah,
it becomes a very horny show. And I just felt
like it was like especially like you know, like and
as far as like yeah, I mean and I yeah,
you know, I I don't. I don't think I'll always
write stories like this. It is not certainly my wheelhouse
like directing scenes of like intimacy between people and like
getting people nude and stuff. It's just like I was like,
(45:37):
you know, like I was like, this is not something
that I was like, whatever you guys want to do,
like what's thankfully you know, when you hire actors that
are exhibitionists, they're often less inhibited than I am, so
like they're like you want me to take my top off?
Uh yeah, sure if that's good, You sure that's okay? Yeah,
(45:57):
So like so yeah, so that was but I and I, um,
but I do feel like it was like it's fun
to show I actually think it's fun to show women
horny horny women, because I feel like that sometimes is
something that like, you know, a lot of times in
in in drama, it's like they're either victimized or virginal
or like I don't know, it's there or is it
(46:18):
or or it's like this kind of like you know, um,
like they'll talk it's like sex in the city. It's
like it's it's very like talky, but like you know
where you're actually feeling the desire and feeling the um
you know. It's like and you know, to me, that
just feels true to life in a way. I guess
(46:38):
I don't know how else to put it, but anyway,
so um so yeah, So I just thought it was like,
let's do sex, let's just go all in and and
that was kind of the I was like, if we're
gonna go all in, it's like by the end, you
just want to feel like, yeah, the animal in them,
in each of these um human characters. So this is
the big question. Is there going to be a white
(47:00):
it is three? Is there going to be a third season? Yes,
they picked us up for a third season, and yeah
where Mike, where, Well, I want to go to Asia,
That's what I think. Look, I mean it feels like,
you know, you started like America, then you do Europe.
It feels like the next one would be I don't know,
I don't know why that feels that. It's just like
(47:21):
I'm trying to think like like, yeah, where does Katie
current go on vacation? Where you tell me? Actually, I
you know what. I ran into you once on vacation
where I was in Yeah, I was in Berlin, staying
at a classic old hotel in the middle Berlin, and
I forget the name of it, and you were staying
there at the same time with I ran into you.
(47:41):
I ran I think we were like there the same
days or whatever, because I ran into you. You were
very friendly all you seem like you're having a good time.
I was with my husband, who still good great, and yeah,
you guys. I don't know if you were there for
work or vacation or whatever, but you were. We were
there for vacation. And you know, Mike husband John is
a huge Survivor nut. I mean, he has seen every season.
(48:06):
He finds it fascinating, so he loves you from Survivor.
That's cool. I think it was prior to me during
Survivor you were it might I think it was what
didn't I got married in so it was probably it
was like after that it was like, yeah it was
sixteen maybe, yeah, I did survive Okay, Well now here
(48:33):
you seemed very um, Yeah, you seem like you had
happy energy. I liked I liked you from just the vibe.
That's so nice? Well is I don't want to spoil
the finale, but do you think we'll see Tanya in
the third season? I love well, I love, I love
writing Tanya and I love I love We're going to Jennifer,
(48:55):
So definitely could be. You can't tell me. If you tell,
do you, you'd have to kill me, right, Mike, Well,
what do you mean you want? Well, you never know.
Could be I'm not telling you, you know, I don't
want to ruin it. A huge thank you to my guests,
(49:17):
Mike White. I imagine you're all tuning in this Sunday,
December eleven for the finale to find out who makes
it out of the White Lotus alive. If not, whenever
you're listening to this, Happy Benjene. Next Question with Katie
Kirk is a production of I Heart Media and Katie
Kurk Media. The executive producers Army Katie Kuric and Courtney Litz.
(49:41):
The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements
and Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by
Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to
sign up for my morning newsletter, Wake Up Paul, go
to Katie Couric dot com. You can also find me
at Katie correct on Instagram and all my social media channels.
(50:03):
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Host
Katie Couric
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