June 5, 2023 • 36 mins
On this episode of Next Question with Katie Couric, produced in partnership with Ally and Katie Couric Media, Katie sits down with Ally’s Jack Howard, Senior Director of Financial Health and Wellness. Together, they discuss how our emotions around money come from our past and make up our “money stories.” These narratives find their way into our attitudes about money, and can wreak havoc in our relationships. Kiersten and Julien Saunders, founders of Rich and Regular, offer helpful advice about how couples can avoid these pitfalls; by understanding each other’s money stories better, couples have a much better chance of writing their own financial happy ending.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi everyone, I'm Katy Kirk and this is next question.
You know, my company, Katie Kirk Media, wouldn't get to
do all the cool things we do like bring you
this podcast if it weren't for the really innovative, smart
and forward thinking companies. We're lucky enough to partner with.
One of those is Ali. Today I'm joined by Ali,
(00:25):
Senior Director of Financial Health and Wellness. Yes, someone has
that job, Jacqueline Howard. We'll be talking about our deep
and often mysterious relationship to you guessed it money. Each
of us has a money story, and soon you'll hear mine.
It might involve how we viewed money as kids, or
(00:46):
how money made our parents feel. Not only do those
money stories stay with us, they really impact our financial
decisions today and our relationships with our partners, for better
or for worse. We'll talk about why. We'll also be
chatting with Kirsten and Julian Saunders, founders of Rich and
(01:07):
Regular and authors of Cashing Out When the Wealth Game
by walking away. Although money can be a breaking point
for so many couples, their money story actually has a
happy ending. Jacqueline Howard, Welcome. I know you go by
Jack so I'll call.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
You Jack, thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
I'm so excited for this conversation because I feel like
when people talk about financial literacy, they don't talk about
how our views on money and finances have been shaped.
Is this a relatively new area of conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
It is.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
So it's welcome to my world of financial health and
wellness and money psychology. I've actually been with ally for
about thirteen years. In the first ten years of my career,
taught financial literacy and then moved into the space of finance,
social inclusion, and money psychology. But yes, it's this area
where we're looking at the emotions and subconscious beliefs, all
of those things that you may not think about with money,
(02:11):
getting away from more of the skills and more of
the behaviors and emotions that you have with money that
can stop you from having a great relationship with money
in the long term. So get into the emotions of
it all.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
And it's really what you call our money stories and
how they have an impact on virtually every aspect of
our lives. What exactly makes up a money story?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Jack, Yeah, So it's really looking at those first money
memories that you have, any of your subconscious beliefs, things
that you may have learned from your parents, where as
an adult you may not think they show up in
your life, but in reality they do and it shapes
a lot of your financial decisions.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I can't wait to tell you my money story, but
before we do that, let me ask you this question.
Most of us blame ourselves for our money problems and
think it really is a question of discipline sticking to
a budget. But you have found it's far more complicated
than that.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
How So, yeah, it's really, when you think of it,
eighty percent behavior and twenty percent skill. And for me,
with my money story, I have had a lot of shame,
and I've worked for a bank in financial literacy for
most of my career and still carry shame about money
because I have not always been good at it. And
it wasn't until I started unpacking my own money story
(03:31):
and really understanding money psychology that I began to realize
all of the things I learned from my parents and
my ancestors, life events, my first memories of money, and
how they impact me today, and how that whole process
of unpacking it has helped me to be more empathetic
with myself and others, and knowing that money is more.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Of a behavior than just skills.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
So one of my first memories of money is going
to the credit union with my mother. And I have
a twin brother named Jack, He's the original Jack, and
we would go to the credit and union with my mother,
who was a teacher, and every two weeks she would
pull out one hundred dollars and then we would go
and use that one hundred dollars to go shopping or
go to the movies. So my earliest memory of money
(04:15):
is creating experiences with family, and my mother shaped that
for me because we used money as a tool to
create joy and for me now as an adult, I
do the same thing.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
That's wonderful. I mean, were there any negative memories for
you surrounding money.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah, so, unfortunately my mother passed when I was about
twelve years old.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
And for the relationship.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Between my mother and father, I would say my mother
was more of the saver and my father was more
of the spender. And oftentimes in relationships you attract your
opposite so for them, they kind of bumped heads on
money sometimes, which caused arguments in the family. We had
moments where we had a lot of money and not
a lot of money. So when my mother passed, she
was the person who was more of the found for
(05:00):
money for our family, and when she passed, we lost that.
So for me, I lost a sense of control, I'll
say when it comes to money, a sense of security
when it comes to money. When my mother passed and
my father, although he did the best that he could
with raising two young kids without a mom, he often
used money to help us to cover.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Up the fact that we didn't have our mother.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
So that created my other money story of using things
to cover up emotions. And that's something that I've also
battled with as an adult as well.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
That's fascinating and I was just going to ask you
how these childhood memories shaped your relationship with money as
an adult.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
By the time I got to high school, I was
about fifteen years old and went and got a worker's
permit and got my first job at McDonald's. And that
is the next piece of my money story of really
using money and working as a tool for me to
gain control and a tool for me to take care
of myself.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
So I've spent most of my life.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
I went to Michigan State University for college, where I
graduated with about thirty thousand dollars in debt, but at
the same time while at MSU, there were moments where
I had three jobs at a time to help pay
for it.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So I have extreme work.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Ethic for the things that I want, which created this
cycle for me of you work really hard, you buy
what you want, you might create debt, you pay it off.
You work really hard, you may create debt, you work
really hard and pay it off, which creates a cycle
almost for me, which has been a hamster wheel of
I need to make more money to keep all of
this going. And it wasn't until I went deep into
(06:37):
my money psychology of connecting the dots.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Of oh, I'm not just bad with money.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I learned these things and now I'm able to get
to the root issue and address it when things come
up of do you want to create an experience in
Hawaii that's going to cost you ten thousand dollars or
do you want to take your kids for a walk
and have that same experience with them that's free.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Connecting those dots for me, it's just been game changing.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So how were you able to get off the hamster
wheel to really understand and take a closer, look at
your money psychology and say no, I don't. I want
to stop this vicious cycle.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
For me, it's been that process of really understanding my
root issues. I hadn't thought about my money story until
starting the work with Ally. We started a wealth business
about a year ago where we grounded it in behavioral
finance and asking our clients about their first memory of
money is a part of the journey, and as a
part of that team, I had to unpack my own
(07:37):
money story in order to give that same council to
our advisors and for me now, I've created guardrails to
help me to navigate when things come up of wanting
to use money for experiences or wanting to use money
to buy things. Now I'm checking and saying, is it
really about the experience or the money or are you
looking for something deeper so fascinating?
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Which do you like to hear my money story?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I would love to hear your money story. Tell me
your first memory of.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Money, Gosh. I think probably my first memory of money,
Jack is getting a dollar or maybe five dollars in
a birthday card from my grandmother and always putting it
into a savings account for my college education. I never
got an allowance, but my parents gave me money when
(08:27):
I needed it. But they also I remember, said I
could never buy a treat at the movie theater. Going
to the movies was a treat enough, so I wasn't
allowed to buy candy or popcorn. I used to smell
my friend Janet Taff's empty buttered popcorn container when she
(08:49):
was done with it. You know, I was very conscious
of not spending money, and I think really because of
the generational impact act of their growing up during the
Great Depression. When I was in high school, my dad
lost his job, so that made me quite nervous about money,
(09:11):
even though we were fine. It was something that I
think filled my dad with shame and my mom with embarrassment,
and so I have. I think I have a very
uncomfortable relationship with money. In many ways. I'm not a spender.
(09:34):
I'm a saver, and even though I have plenty of
disposable income at this point in my life, I still
get agitated and anxious when I'm spending a lot of money,
or people automatically turn to me and think I'm going
to take care of everything that annoys me, and I
resent it, but because I want to be generous, but
(09:54):
I also don't want to be taken advantage of. That's
a lot. That's a lot to break down.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
That's a lot, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
And tell me when you were thinking of those first
memories of money and the popcorn and the shame you
felt from your dad, what emotions came up for you
in that process.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Probably a little anger when well, actually I didn't. I
appreciated giving my money and putting in a college fund
because it made me appreciate the importance of saving and
not spending money on things that weren't of value. So
I actually really appreciate my parents instilling that in me.
(10:35):
But actually I feel pretty healthy about my relationship with money,
even though it's complicated like everyone else's.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Yeah, the great thing about money psychology and this financial
health and wellness space that we're in is bringing awareness
to that connection. Right, It sounds like you have a
good relationship with money now you've worked through it to
come to an appreciation. But for some people they still
be scared about not getting a popcorn. So I think
the great thing is being able to talk about it
(11:04):
and then also deal with those emotions to see how
it may be impacting you today.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I think I need a couch and we need an hour.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I know we do. We need hours to talk about it.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
But I guarantee now that you've given this some thought,
it's going to show up in other places.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So look at it as a journey.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
This money psychology and financial health and wellness is a
journey of you just unpacking your relationship with money just
to get better at it and to let go of
any trauma or any stress that you have about it.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Unpacking it helps you to get there.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
We'll have more with Jack Howard right after this. I
know there's an actual quiz Jack developed by doctor Brad
(11:58):
Klanst financial psychologists, which measures four core money belief system
Let's go through them real quickly, and then I'll tell
you where I ended up on the test. The first
is money avoidance. Tell us what that is?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
So money avoidance, that's the person. Money is evil. I
don't want money. Money is bad.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
You get the bills and the mail, you're throwing them
in a folder, not looking at them.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
You're avoiding money.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
It's not the best money behavior to have, but you
can balance it by really creating a budget and addressing
things head on.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Okay, the next is money worship, the opposite.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Money worship and money focused. That's me.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
So that is a person who thinks that if I
just have more money, it will solve everything. If I
could just get that promotion, make more money, I'm gonna
work harder, I'm gonna work on the weekends.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I'm gonna do all of that to make more money.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
And for that, one of the downfalls could be that
you make more money, you tend to not have as
strong a relationships with family because you spend so much
time working and you can create debt.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So that one is also a tough one as well.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Money status, money status.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
So that's a person where they tie their self worth
to their net worth.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So that is the.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Flashy You're on social media, you got the latest everything,
keeping up with the Joneses. You're really looking to money
to create your identity.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I am really turned off by that. And anyway, money vigilance, I.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Think this is the one that you are, Katie, So
money vigilance. This person is of the four money personalities.
They're a little bit better with money, but you tend
to save, You're a bit more frugal. The bad end
of that one is that you can tend to oversave
and not enjoy money as much, and it can create
anxiety and stress because you're always worried about if you
(13:47):
have enough money.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
All right, we both took the test, and you are,
in fact a money worshiper.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I am.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
I am a money worshiper. And for me with understanding
my own financial health and wellness, seeing that show up
in my life as an adult, and being able to
address it so that my kids have a different money story.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
And so how are your kids different than you, and
how are you helping them shape attitudes that will lead
to financial help throughout their lives.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
So I have a fourteen year old son and a
six year old daughter who will be angry if I
don't give her the six and a half because she
has a birthday coming. But for my son, one of
the great things about my career at ally is that
I've been able to take my son on this journey.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I think when I started working here he was about
two years old. So my career at.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Ally, I've created financial literacy, children's books, I've created magic
shows that talk about money, and my son has been
a part of that journey since he was little. So
now at fourteen, he's very mature when it comes to
the conversation of money. He understands that you have to spend, save,
and give. We created little buckets where he would put
(14:58):
money in the bucket based off of spend, se give
when he would get his allowance. And we've been doing
that since he was about six years old. And now
he is able to use the things that I've taught
him in a play. But I think the big thing
with your kids is making sure that they're a part
of a conversation, you know. I think the big difference
between my parents and some other parents is that we
didn't talk about money. We didn't have those conversations at
(15:19):
the dinner table. We didn't talk about investing or saving.
Money was looked at as a really a tool to
buy things versus an asset that we can use to
create more assets. And with my son, I'm trying to
teach him something different so that he's more vigilant with
his money and uses it as a tool to build.
And my daughter, I'm working on her. She's just we
(15:40):
just got her started on the allowance.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
How do you work on these issues so you can
really turn a switch in your brain and change your
attitudes towards money for the better.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
I think the first thing is realizing that it even exists.
So what you've done, Katie, just with this first step
of understanding your money personality, realizing that you may have
some subconscious beliefs that show up in your daily life.
I would encourage you to go home and journal about it.
Journal about some of those first memories, the beliefs that
you have, and then from there, once you journal, journal
(16:14):
about it and understand the impact that it has on
you today, create a different money mantra. So for you,
it may be in the past, I've felt that we
didn't have enough. I feel that you shouldn't spend money
on expensive things. It may be now that I have enough,
I can spend money on things that I budget for.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Tell me how our money stories impact our adult relationships,
whether it's with our partners, our bosses, our kids, our family.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
I find this idea of your money story and your
financial health and wellness for relationships, specifically for couples, fascinating
because oftentimes you will attract your opposite. So I'm recently divorced,
but when I was married, read my husband was very
frugal and I'm.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
A spender, so for our relationship.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
We were attracted to each other because I gave him
a little bit of like, let's have some fun, and
he gave me a little bit of a structure. Where
the issues can come in. Is not realizing the money
story of your partner. So in his eyes, I may
have looked at been looked upon as irresponsible, or she
just wants to have fun, whatever, you know, she's not
serious about money. So I think oftentimes in our relationships,
(17:30):
by not understanding the money story or the money history
of the people around you, it creates this space for judgment,
It creates a space for shame. When you can unpack
those things, it creates more empathy.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
And I think it would.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Help a lot of marriages if we were to have
this as a part of marital counselor before you got married.
It's crazy because when I think about the time when
I was getting married, you.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Just want to get married.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
You're in love, and you want to have a big
wedding and all these things. You're not having those conversations
about the soft and higher skills of money. People are
avoiding those conversations because they may be ashamed, and it
just it could be uncomfortable it's a different level of
love when you talk about money.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Thirty eight percent of marriages split up for precisely this reason.
They don't see eye to eye on financial issues.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
That's exactly it.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
And oftentimes with marriages you think of infidelity, right, there's
sexual infidelity, emotional infidelity, but there's also financial infidelity.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
And what that means is.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Those moments where you keep a secret about money from
your partner or your hiding accounts. It's really being dishonest
about money, and I think it shows up in a
lot of marriages and contributes to the lack of trust
and stability in a relationship.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Let me ask you a question about money and how
things have changed today. Thirty point six percent of women
made more money than their husbands. That's up from twenty
three percent in two thousand and sixteen percent in nineteen
eighty one. I'm curious how that has impacted relationships because
(19:16):
when I got married and started making more money than
my husband, who subsequently passed away, I think it created
some tension in our relationship.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
I think it has really shifted the stories that we
have about money, conflict within relationships, how we talk about money,
and really forced us to look at old stereotypes about
money and gender roles and forced us to really look at.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
What is the legacy we want to create for our children.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Right, So for my daughter, I want her to grow
up and know that she can grow up and be
whatever she wants and have a career and do all
those things the same thing that my mother did. So
it's really opening up this conversation about money of making
sure that the.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Roles have support. So if you're our working mom, making.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Sure you get that support outside of the home, and
then when it comes to money, ensuring that the couple
is on the same page with reaching their financial goals.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Women need to really understand their finances much more than
they do. Is that changing.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
The conversation has changed, But as women, we also have
to take responsibility for our money. Take responsibility for the
things that you're invested in, even if it's through your
four oh one k at work, Understanding the accounts that
your family has, going through your estate plan. So I'm
working on my updated estate plan now post divorce, and
(20:45):
it's hard. I think we avoid these things because they're
tough conversations and it's easy to pass it off to
somebody else. Funny enough, so during my money story journey
with Ally, I use our advisors here. My biggest fear
that came up for me is being a poor old lady.
And I think what comes up is that women often
(21:06):
live longer than men. We're not a part of the
money conversations, so we have this fear that the money
will run out. So how much money do I actually
need to live to be ninety five? You need to
know that, and you need to create a savings and
investing plan to help you to ensure that you'll be okay.
You'll be covered and also not only be covered, but
(21:28):
be able to leave a legacy for your children, a
legacy within the community.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
When we come back, we'll be joined by Kirsten and
Julian Saunders. They have some great advice about how couples
can navigate hard conversations about money. Let's bring in Kirsten
(21:56):
and Julian Saunders into this conversation, the founders of and
Regular and they have their own money story to tell.
I thought it was so interesting Juliane and Kirsten that
thirty eight percent of marriages and over arguments about money.
So you have been able to successfully navigate your different
(22:18):
approaches and attitudes and philosophies about money. How were you
able to do that and was anybody hurt in the process.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
Yeah, I think the first thing was just coming to
grips with that stat. We saw that stat when we
got engaged, and we were, you know, thinking about how
we're going to do premarital counseling or do we want
to do like a joint therapy, But we decided that
we knew the number one reason that people were getting
divorced or at least having arguments in a marriage was
around money, and we wanted to take that one off
(22:49):
the table for us. We were like, if we're going
to have an issue, is going to be with thing
number two, three, or four, not not about money. And
so when we both committed to that, that was a
kind of a sauce or a secret weapon in our marriage.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
So, Julian, your first argument was over credit card debt, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
Well it wasn't just our first argument. It was our
very first open conversation about money. I mean, we met
at work and we decided to take a trip. Shortly
after a meeting, things were going really well, and we said,
why not step our foot on the gas, And so
we literally took a vacation and we hang back. We
spent a lot of money, and when we came back,
(23:28):
I sort of decided that, you know, all right, it's
time to kind of jump back into the regular way
of doing things, which is, you know, cutting back and
being mindflow of the budget, especially knowing how much we
just spent, and she wanted to go ahead and keep
the party going. She wanted to literally celebrate the fact
that we'd just taken a vacation. And long story short,
you know, it kind of came to a head and
(23:49):
I said some words that I have come to regret
in some ways. But I told her, you know, after
learning that she already had credit card debt and that
vacation was building on top of that, that if I
knew she had that, that I would not have dated her.
And the reason why I said that, even though I
know that that's a horrible thing to say looking back,
because I had had really, really bad experiences dealing with
(24:11):
my own debt, I felt like that was actually the
righteous and responsible thing to do. But obviously, now that
I've had some time to reflect on it, it was
very rude and sensitive.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
So I must admit I'm a big fan of your
book Cashing Out, and on that part, I have it
on audible. When you said I'm done dating, I was like, oh, no,
he did not do that to her.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
What is he doing?
Speaker 3 (24:32):
So, Kirsten, I know in the book you both were
able to dig into your perspectives of money, and Katie
and I actually talked about our money stories earlier. Both
of you come from very different backgrounds, which means you
have very different money stories. Can you share your money
story and let us know how it impacts your relationship today?
Speaker 4 (24:54):
Yeah, we were, as you said, born on two different
sides of the track. I grew up pretty traditional, middle class,
two parent household here in Atlanta. On top of that,
I was a church girl, and so a lot of
the early teachings that I had about life were faith based.
I believed in things like abundance. I believed in faith
the size of a mustard seed. And so that's what
(25:15):
I would default to when he would ask these very
specific questions about my religion. I would just be like
God got me, Like, no, there's no limit to what's possible,
instead of understanding that it requires work as well.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
It still requires a plan.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
And so when we had our first conversation about money,
and he was asking, like, how do you expect to
pay for this vacation. I was very clear, like through
credit cards. I thought that was normal. I didn't know
that you're supposed to pay the credit card off every
month or I thought that was like an option. I
didn't think that was like the best practice.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
Yeah, and my story is different, right, so we kind
of frame it up as in her story as a
version of the Huxtables or the Cosby Show, and mine
was more like a Jamaican version of good times, Like
it was hard. And I grew up in nineteen eighties Brooklyn,
New York, and it was a very different Brooklyn than
you see today. And so my mom worked in Manhattan,
(26:09):
and so I remember there were times we'd go up
on the roof, not my mom but just me being
a young kid, and you go up on the roof
and you would see Manhattan. It was like, oh, that's
where the money is, Like there's money over there. But
it just felt like it was like mythical, right, it
was almost like from being honest, you just take pride
in that, like your ability to survive and your ability
to stress a dollar and your ability to get by
(26:29):
but you learn pretty quickly that that only gets you
so far, and especially when it comes to relationships, that
mentality can actually get in the way because you do
actually need money to nurture relationships, not just romantic relationships,
but familiar relationships and just social friendships and so on.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
So fascinating, isn't it, Jack? And also the idea of
like Julian, I would imagine your mantra was never living
beyond your means, while Kirsten's was always living beyond your
means because you could pay for it. You could enjoy
it now and pay for it later.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
That's exactly it. That's exactly it, Jack.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
I'm curious when you hear these stories, do you think,
oh my god, these two it's a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
No, you know what it is. Yes, it does sound
like acid.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
And if you read the book and you hear how
firm he was with her on that on having dead,
it'll blow your mind. But I'm curious, you know you
were able to get to a place so early in
your relationship Julian of addressing the money conversation, which is
often so taboo in society and relationships in general, how
(27:38):
did you both get to a place of being able
to have that conversation and Kirsten for you being able
to receive it and move forward.
Speaker 5 (27:45):
Yeah. So first I would say it's just love, right,
like there was an undeniable love and an attraction there.
And the second part, I would say it was bewildering
because I was just so confused as to why I
was so willing to throw away something that I really
really loved it, enjoy out of this deeprooted fear. And
so luckily the sort of rational part of my brain
(28:06):
was like, like, why would you do that? Why would
you throw that away?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
And Kirsten to follow up, Yeah, what Jack asked, how
were you able to receive it and not be defensive
and you know, reject Julian because he was so different
than you were in terms of his attitudes.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Thank you for putting in nice, so different, so different.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Well, I think this is where the other side of
the faith coin comes in. I knew that there needed
to be grace there for him and for me, and
I actually was quite defensive, and that was my first
indicator that like, maybe he was right, because I think
when people get defensive, they tend to think that they're
standing up for themselves or defending themselves, because you don't
get defensive when you think somebody is wrong. When somebody's wrong,
(28:53):
you're like, whatever, that's crazy, Like that's crazy talk. You
get defensive when you feel that they may be kind
of right, Like you get defensive when it's like, ooh,
that's stung a little bit. You saw something in me
that I kind of believe myself that I know I
know better, but I'm doing this differently. And so when
I took that time to actually kind of audit my behaviors,
look at how reckless or loose I was being with
(29:16):
my finances, I was like, he kind of has a point.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I'd like to ask all three of you a question,
and that is how much tension now arises between spouses
or partners because so many more women are working, and
that means in some cases, women are out earning their husbands.
And I think in some traditional marriages, or if like
(29:39):
the husband didn't have a working mom, that can sometimes
be an affront to their manhood in some ways, even
if it's subconsciously so, that can create all kinds of
issues in a marriage, can it not.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
We see that and hear that all the time. I
think there's two sides of that coin. On the one hand,
because women are more likely to be breadwinners than they
were before, it's giving way for men to be more
active fathers and take paternity leave and perhaps opt into
being a stay at home dad and get the breaks
from their career that they desire. But on the other hand,
(30:15):
women are learning what it feels like to have the
power of being the breadwinner, and there's some fumbling along
the way. We're hearing a lot of people either coming
into the realization that they need a plan, a lot
of women specifically coming into the realization that they need
a plan. Even when you look at pre nups, the
leading cohort, leading generation of prenups are millennial women asking
(30:36):
for them, requesting them, making sure that that's the foundation
of their marriage. Because this idea very similar to jobs,
which has gone through a similar cultural transition. This idea
that something is forever ever is becoming less and less
statistically relevant, and so protecting yourself going in is more
important now than it was before. And then the same
(30:58):
it's just true with divorcing. We hear from a lot
of women who are basically starting over. They lost a
great bit of their savings and divorce. A lot of
the conversations that we have are about encouraging people to
leave the shame behind and start to tell the story
so that other people can learn and so that we
socially can make some of these conversations and these decisions
(31:19):
more normalized as the future, as future generations continue to
get married.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
We're almost out of time, but I want to ask
you all about how you deal with financial disagreements, because
nobody's perfect, and I'm sure you occasionally don't see eye
to eye on financial issues. And since it's the cause
of so much marital strife, you have figured out a
(31:44):
way to get through things when you have a disagreement.
So let's talk about those. One is Elmo. What does
that mean? So?
Speaker 4 (31:55):
Elmo is an acronym for enough, let's move on. And
we actually so when our son was little, used to
have an Elmo doll that we just put on the table,
like okay, Elmo. Because there's a way of talking around
a subjects so much that you lose the plot and
we forget what we're talking about. And so sometimes we'll
get into keeping score, bringing up old stuff, adding in
(32:16):
other stories from other people, and if it's not productive.
We'll just say okay, Elmo and move on to the
next thing.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
You also have, tell me more. That's the opposite of Elmo.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
But it was clearly a rule that was designed for
me or people like me. But it's really just a
way to ensure that you are inviting your partner into
a conversation about money, giving them room or space to
explore their idea. And you're basically just when they ask
for that crazy thing or bring up that crazy thing,
tell me more. And by the third or fourth tell
(32:50):
me more. By the time you get to the third
or fourth thing, they bother talk themselves out of it,
or they've brought up a red line point. Yeah. And
it's just creates an environment where I think you are
inviting someone else to share their point of view, as
opposed to saying, nope, here's my heart fast rule. It's
not in a budget. I'm gonna shut this thing down.
Because reality is, these things are natural. You're gonna have ideas,
(33:13):
You're gonna have temptations, and I think everyone deserves an
opportunity to explore them.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
I see your son walking in the background, so cute.
And by the way, I love I love your safe
word too, you have to come up with that.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Yeah, So this was a way because I'm the more
conflict averse one in the group, and so this was
a way for me to exit a conversation or say
I need a pause before things got even more escalated.
If I needed to collect myself emotionally, we would come
up with this safe word. And our safe word is donuts.
(33:48):
And so in the middle of a conversation, I can say, like, yo, donuts,
I'm done talking about this. I don't want to cry
right now, like I'm too emotional, Like donuts, let's just
revisit this next week. And it's so slight, it's in
the middle of a sentence, but it's enough to be like.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
All right.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
I really admire the work that both of you have
put into allowing communication, getting to know each other's stories.
If more people were doing what they're doing, we could
save a lot of marriages of just having the conversation
and loving each other. I think you mentioned that earlier, Julian, like,
you have this person that you love, so why would
you let money come in between it when it's something
(34:26):
that definitely can be navigated.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
So kudos to both of you. Thank you for being
an example. It's taken me a.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
While to get to where I am. I didn't just
come out the womb knowing how to deal with money.
We know that, so given everybody that grace. It's something
that we have to keep in mind and keeping the
communication open. All of that is needed, slowing down conversations
about money.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Also having your boundaries around money.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
These are all things when we mentioned earlier of having
a plan in the beginning, what are your values around money,
what are your non negotiables, and sharing that with your
family in a very kind and understanding way. I think
that's how you set up those boundaries and get everybody
on the same page and they secretly will learn from
you in that process.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Well, this was so fun. I've learned so much. I've
really loved getting to know you all virtually. Jacqueline aka Jack,
and Julian and Kirsten, thank you so much for spending
time with us. This was really interesting. I know my
money story. I'm money vigilance.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
In other words, I'm cheap frue goal. I prefer frugal
to cheat anyway, Thank you all so much. This was
really a great conversation.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I so appreciate it you take care.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for
me or want to share your thoughts about how you
navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a
short message at six oh nine five point two by
five oh five, or you can send me a DM
on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next
Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.
(36:06):
The executive producers are Meet, Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz.
Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana
Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell,
who also composed our theme music. For more information about
today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter, wake
Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app,
(36:29):
or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also
find me on Instagram and all my social media channels.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi everyone, I'm Katy Kirk and this is next question.
You know, my company, Katie Kirk Media, wouldn't get to
do all the cool things we do like bring you
this podcast if it weren't for the really innovative, smart
and forward thinking companies. We're lucky enough to partner with.
One of those is Ali. Today I'm joined by Ali,
(00:25):
Senior Director of Financial Health and Wellness. Yes, someone has
that job, Jacqueline Howard. We'll be talking about our deep
and often mysterious relationship to you guessed it money. Each
of us has a money story, and soon you'll hear mine.
It might involve how we viewed money as kids, or
(00:46):
how money made our parents feel. Not only do those
money stories stay with us, they really impact our financial
decisions today and our relationships with our partners, for better
or for worse. We'll talk about why. We'll also be
chatting with Kirsten and Julian Saunders, founders of Rich and
(01:07):
Regular and authors of Cashing Out When the Wealth Game
by walking away. Although money can be a breaking point
for so many couples, their money story actually has a
happy ending. Jacqueline Howard, Welcome. I know you go by
Jack so I'll call.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
You Jack, thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
I'm so excited for this conversation because I feel like
when people talk about financial literacy, they don't talk about
how our views on money and finances have been shaped.
Is this a relatively new area of conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
It is.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
So it's welcome to my world of financial health and
wellness and money psychology. I've actually been with ally for
about thirteen years. In the first ten years of my career,
taught financial literacy and then moved into the space of finance,
social inclusion, and money psychology. But yes, it's this area
where we're looking at the emotions and subconscious beliefs, all
of those things that you may not think about with money,
(02:11):
getting away from more of the skills and more of
the behaviors and emotions that you have with money that
can stop you from having a great relationship with money
in the long term. So get into the emotions of
it all.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
And it's really what you call our money stories and
how they have an impact on virtually every aspect of
our lives. What exactly makes up a money story?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Jack, Yeah, So it's really looking at those first money
memories that you have, any of your subconscious beliefs, things
that you may have learned from your parents, where as
an adult you may not think they show up in
your life, but in reality they do and it shapes
a lot of your financial decisions.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I can't wait to tell you my money story, but
before we do that, let me ask you this question.
Most of us blame ourselves for our money problems and
think it really is a question of discipline sticking to
a budget. But you have found it's far more complicated
than that.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
How So, yeah, it's really, when you think of it,
eighty percent behavior and twenty percent skill. And for me,
with my money story, I have had a lot of shame,
and I've worked for a bank in financial literacy for
most of my career and still carry shame about money
because I have not always been good at it. And
it wasn't until I started unpacking my own money story
(03:31):
and really understanding money psychology that I began to realize
all of the things I learned from my parents and
my ancestors, life events, my first memories of money, and
how they impact me today, and how that whole process
of unpacking it has helped me to be more empathetic
with myself and others, and knowing that money is more.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Of a behavior than just skills.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
So one of my first memories of money is going
to the credit union with my mother. And I have
a twin brother named Jack, He's the original Jack, and
we would go to the credit and union with my mother,
who was a teacher, and every two weeks she would
pull out one hundred dollars and then we would go
and use that one hundred dollars to go shopping or
go to the movies. So my earliest memory of money
(04:15):
is creating experiences with family, and my mother shaped that
for me because we used money as a tool to
create joy and for me now as an adult, I
do the same thing.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
That's wonderful. I mean, were there any negative memories for
you surrounding money.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah, so, unfortunately my mother passed when I was about
twelve years old.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
And for the relationship.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Between my mother and father, I would say my mother
was more of the saver and my father was more
of the spender. And oftentimes in relationships you attract your
opposite so for them, they kind of bumped heads on
money sometimes, which caused arguments in the family. We had
moments where we had a lot of money and not
a lot of money. So when my mother passed, she
was the person who was more of the found for
(05:00):
money for our family, and when she passed, we lost that.
So for me, I lost a sense of control, I'll
say when it comes to money, a sense of security
when it comes to money. When my mother passed and
my father, although he did the best that he could
with raising two young kids without a mom, he often
used money to help us to cover.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Up the fact that we didn't have our mother.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
So that created my other money story of using things
to cover up emotions. And that's something that I've also
battled with as an adult as well.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
That's fascinating and I was just going to ask you
how these childhood memories shaped your relationship with money as
an adult.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
By the time I got to high school, I was
about fifteen years old and went and got a worker's
permit and got my first job at McDonald's. And that
is the next piece of my money story of really
using money and working as a tool for me to
gain control and a tool for me to take care
of myself.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
So I've spent most of my life.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
I went to Michigan State University for college, where I
graduated with about thirty thousand dollars in debt, but at
the same time while at MSU, there were moments where
I had three jobs at a time to help pay
for it.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So I have extreme work.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
Ethic for the things that I want, which created this
cycle for me of you work really hard, you buy
what you want, you might create debt, you pay it off.
You work really hard, you may create debt, you work
really hard and pay it off, which creates a cycle
almost for me, which has been a hamster wheel of
I need to make more money to keep all of
this going. And it wasn't until I went deep into
(06:37):
my money psychology of connecting the dots.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Of oh, I'm not just bad with money.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I learned these things and now I'm able to get
to the root issue and address it when things come
up of do you want to create an experience in
Hawaii that's going to cost you ten thousand dollars or
do you want to take your kids for a walk
and have that same experience with them that's free.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Connecting those dots for me, it's just been game changing.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So how were you able to get off the hamster
wheel to really understand and take a closer, look at
your money psychology and say no, I don't. I want
to stop this vicious cycle.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
For me, it's been that process of really understanding my
root issues. I hadn't thought about my money story until
starting the work with Ally. We started a wealth business
about a year ago where we grounded it in behavioral
finance and asking our clients about their first memory of
money is a part of the journey, and as a
part of that team, I had to unpack my own
(07:37):
money story in order to give that same council to
our advisors and for me now, I've created guardrails to
help me to navigate when things come up of wanting
to use money for experiences or wanting to use money
to buy things. Now I'm checking and saying, is it
really about the experience or the money or are you
looking for something deeper so fascinating?
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Which do you like to hear my money story?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I would love to hear your money story. Tell me
your first memory of.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Money, Gosh. I think probably my first memory of money,
Jack is getting a dollar or maybe five dollars in
a birthday card from my grandmother and always putting it
into a savings account for my college education. I never
got an allowance, but my parents gave me money when
(08:27):
I needed it. But they also I remember, said I
could never buy a treat at the movie theater. Going
to the movies was a treat enough, so I wasn't
allowed to buy candy or popcorn. I used to smell
my friend Janet Taff's empty buttered popcorn container when she
(08:49):
was done with it. You know, I was very conscious
of not spending money, and I think really because of
the generational impact act of their growing up during the
Great Depression. When I was in high school, my dad
lost his job, so that made me quite nervous about money,
(09:11):
even though we were fine. It was something that I
think filled my dad with shame and my mom with embarrassment,
and so I have. I think I have a very
uncomfortable relationship with money. In many ways. I'm not a spender.
(09:34):
I'm a saver, and even though I have plenty of
disposable income at this point in my life, I still
get agitated and anxious when I'm spending a lot of money,
or people automatically turn to me and think I'm going
to take care of everything that annoys me, and I
resent it, but because I want to be generous, but
(09:54):
I also don't want to be taken advantage of. That's
a lot. That's a lot to break down.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
That's a lot, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
And tell me when you were thinking of those first
memories of money and the popcorn and the shame you
felt from your dad, what emotions came up for you
in that process.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Probably a little anger when well, actually I didn't. I
appreciated giving my money and putting in a college fund
because it made me appreciate the importance of saving and
not spending money on things that weren't of value. So
I actually really appreciate my parents instilling that in me.
(10:35):
But actually I feel pretty healthy about my relationship with money,
even though it's complicated like everyone else's.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Yeah, the great thing about money psychology and this financial
health and wellness space that we're in is bringing awareness
to that connection. Right, It sounds like you have a
good relationship with money now you've worked through it to
come to an appreciation. But for some people they still
be scared about not getting a popcorn. So I think
the great thing is being able to talk about it
(11:04):
and then also deal with those emotions to see how
it may be impacting you today.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I think I need a couch and we need an hour.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I know we do. We need hours to talk about it.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
But I guarantee now that you've given this some thought,
it's going to show up in other places.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So look at it as a journey.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
This money psychology and financial health and wellness is a
journey of you just unpacking your relationship with money just
to get better at it and to let go of
any trauma or any stress that you have about it.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Unpacking it helps you to get there.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
We'll have more with Jack Howard right after this. I
know there's an actual quiz Jack developed by doctor Brad
(11:58):
Klanst financial psychologists, which measures four core money belief system
Let's go through them real quickly, and then I'll tell
you where I ended up on the test. The first
is money avoidance. Tell us what that is?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
So money avoidance, that's the person. Money is evil. I
don't want money. Money is bad.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
You get the bills and the mail, you're throwing them
in a folder, not looking at them.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
You're avoiding money.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
It's not the best money behavior to have, but you
can balance it by really creating a budget and addressing
things head on.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Okay, the next is money worship, the opposite.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Money worship and money focused. That's me.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
So that is a person who thinks that if I
just have more money, it will solve everything. If I
could just get that promotion, make more money, I'm gonna
work harder, I'm gonna work on the weekends.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
I'm gonna do all of that to make more money.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
And for that, one of the downfalls could be that
you make more money, you tend to not have as
strong a relationships with family because you spend so much
time working and you can create debt.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
So that one is also a tough one as well.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Money status, money status.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
So that's a person where they tie their self worth
to their net worth.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
So that is the.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Flashy You're on social media, you got the latest everything,
keeping up with the Joneses. You're really looking to money
to create your identity.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I am really turned off by that. And anyway, money vigilance, I.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Think this is the one that you are, Katie, So
money vigilance. This person is of the four money personalities.
They're a little bit better with money, but you tend
to save, You're a bit more frugal. The bad end
of that one is that you can tend to oversave
and not enjoy money as much, and it can create
anxiety and stress because you're always worried about if you
(13:47):
have enough money.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
All right, we both took the test, and you are,
in fact a money worshiper.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I am.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
I am a money worshiper. And for me with understanding
my own financial health and wellness, seeing that show up
in my life as an adult, and being able to
address it so that my kids have a different money story.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
And so how are your kids different than you, and
how are you helping them shape attitudes that will lead
to financial help throughout their lives.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
So I have a fourteen year old son and a
six year old daughter who will be angry if I
don't give her the six and a half because she
has a birthday coming. But for my son, one of
the great things about my career at ally is that
I've been able to take my son on this journey.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I think when I started working here he was about
two years old. So my career at.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
Ally, I've created financial literacy, children's books, I've created magic
shows that talk about money, and my son has been
a part of that journey since he was little. So
now at fourteen, he's very mature when it comes to
the conversation of money. He understands that you have to spend, save,
and give. We created little buckets where he would put
(14:58):
money in the bucket based off of spend, se give
when he would get his allowance. And we've been doing
that since he was about six years old. And now
he is able to use the things that I've taught
him in a play. But I think the big thing
with your kids is making sure that they're a part
of a conversation, you know. I think the big difference
between my parents and some other parents is that we
didn't talk about money. We didn't have those conversations at
(15:19):
the dinner table. We didn't talk about investing or saving.
Money was looked at as a really a tool to
buy things versus an asset that we can use to
create more assets. And with my son, I'm trying to
teach him something different so that he's more vigilant with
his money and uses it as a tool to build.
And my daughter, I'm working on her. She's just we
(15:40):
just got her started on the allowance.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
How do you work on these issues so you can
really turn a switch in your brain and change your
attitudes towards money for the better.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
I think the first thing is realizing that it even exists.
So what you've done, Katie, just with this first step
of understanding your money personality, realizing that you may have
some subconscious beliefs that show up in your daily life.
I would encourage you to go home and journal about it.
Journal about some of those first memories, the beliefs that
you have, and then from there, once you journal, journal
(16:14):
about it and understand the impact that it has on
you today, create a different money mantra. So for you,
it may be in the past, I've felt that we
didn't have enough. I feel that you shouldn't spend money
on expensive things. It may be now that I have enough,
I can spend money on things that I budget for.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Tell me how our money stories impact our adult relationships,
whether it's with our partners, our bosses, our kids, our family.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
I find this idea of your money story and your
financial health and wellness for relationships, specifically for couples, fascinating
because oftentimes you will attract your opposite. So I'm recently divorced,
but when I was married, read my husband was very
frugal and I'm.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
A spender, so for our relationship.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
We were attracted to each other because I gave him
a little bit of like, let's have some fun, and
he gave me a little bit of a structure. Where
the issues can come in. Is not realizing the money
story of your partner. So in his eyes, I may
have looked at been looked upon as irresponsible, or she
just wants to have fun, whatever, you know, she's not
serious about money. So I think oftentimes in our relationships,
(17:30):
by not understanding the money story or the money history
of the people around you, it creates this space for judgment,
It creates a space for shame. When you can unpack
those things, it creates more empathy.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
And I think it would.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Help a lot of marriages if we were to have
this as a part of marital counselor before you got married.
It's crazy because when I think about the time when
I was getting married, you.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Just want to get married.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
You're in love, and you want to have a big
wedding and all these things. You're not having those conversations
about the soft and higher skills of money. People are
avoiding those conversations because they may be ashamed, and it
just it could be uncomfortable it's a different level of
love when you talk about money.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Thirty eight percent of marriages split up for precisely this reason.
They don't see eye to eye on financial issues.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
That's exactly it.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
And oftentimes with marriages you think of infidelity, right, there's
sexual infidelity, emotional infidelity, but there's also financial infidelity.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
And what that means is.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Those moments where you keep a secret about money from
your partner or your hiding accounts. It's really being dishonest
about money, and I think it shows up in a
lot of marriages and contributes to the lack of trust
and stability in a relationship.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Let me ask you a question about money and how
things have changed today. Thirty point six percent of women
made more money than their husbands. That's up from twenty
three percent in two thousand and sixteen percent in nineteen
eighty one. I'm curious how that has impacted relationships because
(19:16):
when I got married and started making more money than
my husband, who subsequently passed away, I think it created
some tension in our relationship.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
I think it has really shifted the stories that we
have about money, conflict within relationships, how we talk about money,
and really forced us to look at old stereotypes about
money and gender roles and forced us to really look at.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
What is the legacy we want to create for our children.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Right, So for my daughter, I want her to grow
up and know that she can grow up and be
whatever she wants and have a career and do all
those things the same thing that my mother did. So
it's really opening up this conversation about money of making
sure that the.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Roles have support. So if you're our working mom, making.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Sure you get that support outside of the home, and
then when it comes to money, ensuring that the couple
is on the same page with reaching their financial goals.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Women need to really understand their finances much more than
they do. Is that changing.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
The conversation has changed, But as women, we also have
to take responsibility for our money. Take responsibility for the
things that you're invested in, even if it's through your
four oh one k at work, Understanding the accounts that
your family has, going through your estate plan. So I'm
working on my updated estate plan now post divorce, and
(20:45):
it's hard. I think we avoid these things because they're
tough conversations and it's easy to pass it off to
somebody else. Funny enough, so during my money story journey
with Ally, I use our advisors here. My biggest fear
that came up for me is being a poor old lady.
And I think what comes up is that women often
(21:06):
live longer than men. We're not a part of the
money conversations, so we have this fear that the money
will run out. So how much money do I actually
need to live to be ninety five? You need to
know that, and you need to create a savings and
investing plan to help you to ensure that you'll be okay.
You'll be covered and also not only be covered, but
(21:28):
be able to leave a legacy for your children, a
legacy within the community.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
When we come back, we'll be joined by Kirsten and
Julian Saunders. They have some great advice about how couples
can navigate hard conversations about money. Let's bring in Kirsten
(21:56):
and Julian Saunders into this conversation, the founders of and
Regular and they have their own money story to tell.
I thought it was so interesting Juliane and Kirsten that
thirty eight percent of marriages and over arguments about money.
So you have been able to successfully navigate your different
(22:18):
approaches and attitudes and philosophies about money. How were you
able to do that and was anybody hurt in the process.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
Yeah, I think the first thing was just coming to
grips with that stat. We saw that stat when we
got engaged, and we were, you know, thinking about how
we're going to do premarital counseling or do we want
to do like a joint therapy, But we decided that
we knew the number one reason that people were getting
divorced or at least having arguments in a marriage was
around money, and we wanted to take that one off
(22:49):
the table for us. We were like, if we're going
to have an issue, is going to be with thing
number two, three, or four, not not about money. And
so when we both committed to that, that was a
kind of a sauce or a secret weapon in our marriage.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
So, Julian, your first argument was over credit card debt, right, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:07):
Well it wasn't just our first argument. It was our
very first open conversation about money. I mean, we met
at work and we decided to take a trip. Shortly
after a meeting, things were going really well, and we said,
why not step our foot on the gas, And so
we literally took a vacation and we hang back. We
spent a lot of money, and when we came back,
(23:28):
I sort of decided that, you know, all right, it's
time to kind of jump back into the regular way
of doing things, which is, you know, cutting back and
being mindflow of the budget, especially knowing how much we
just spent, and she wanted to go ahead and keep
the party going. She wanted to literally celebrate the fact
that we'd just taken a vacation. And long story short,
you know, it kind of came to a head and
(23:49):
I said some words that I have come to regret
in some ways. But I told her, you know, after
learning that she already had credit card debt and that
vacation was building on top of that, that if I
knew she had that, that I would not have dated her.
And the reason why I said that, even though I
know that that's a horrible thing to say looking back,
because I had had really, really bad experiences dealing with
(24:11):
my own debt, I felt like that was actually the
righteous and responsible thing to do. But obviously, now that
I've had some time to reflect on it, it was
very rude and sensitive.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
So I must admit I'm a big fan of your
book Cashing Out, and on that part, I have it
on audible. When you said I'm done dating, I was like, oh, no,
he did not do that to her.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
What is he doing?
Speaker 3 (24:32):
So, Kirsten, I know in the book you both were
able to dig into your perspectives of money, and Katie
and I actually talked about our money stories earlier. Both
of you come from very different backgrounds, which means you
have very different money stories. Can you share your money
story and let us know how it impacts your relationship today?
Speaker 4 (24:54):
Yeah, we were, as you said, born on two different
sides of the track. I grew up pretty traditional, middle class,
two parent household here in Atlanta. On top of that,
I was a church girl, and so a lot of
the early teachings that I had about life were faith based.
I believed in things like abundance. I believed in faith
the size of a mustard seed. And so that's what
(25:15):
I would default to when he would ask these very
specific questions about my religion. I would just be like
God got me, Like, no, there's no limit to what's possible,
instead of understanding that it requires work as well.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
It still requires a plan.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
And so when we had our first conversation about money,
and he was asking, like, how do you expect to
pay for this vacation. I was very clear, like through
credit cards. I thought that was normal. I didn't know
that you're supposed to pay the credit card off every
month or I thought that was like an option. I
didn't think that was like the best practice.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
Yeah, and my story is different, right, so we kind
of frame it up as in her story as a
version of the Huxtables or the Cosby Show, and mine
was more like a Jamaican version of good times, Like
it was hard. And I grew up in nineteen eighties Brooklyn,
New York, and it was a very different Brooklyn than
you see today. And so my mom worked in Manhattan,
(26:09):
and so I remember there were times we'd go up
on the roof, not my mom but just me being
a young kid, and you go up on the roof
and you would see Manhattan. It was like, oh, that's
where the money is, Like there's money over there. But
it just felt like it was like mythical, right, it
was almost like from being honest, you just take pride
in that, like your ability to survive and your ability
to stress a dollar and your ability to get by
(26:29):
but you learn pretty quickly that that only gets you
so far, and especially when it comes to relationships, that
mentality can actually get in the way because you do
actually need money to nurture relationships, not just romantic relationships,
but familiar relationships and just social friendships and so on.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
So fascinating, isn't it, Jack? And also the idea of
like Julian, I would imagine your mantra was never living
beyond your means, while Kirsten's was always living beyond your
means because you could pay for it. You could enjoy
it now and pay for it later.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
That's exactly it. That's exactly it, Jack.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
I'm curious when you hear these stories, do you think,
oh my god, these two it's a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
No, you know what it is. Yes, it does sound
like acid.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
And if you read the book and you hear how
firm he was with her on that on having dead,
it'll blow your mind. But I'm curious, you know you
were able to get to a place so early in
your relationship Julian of addressing the money conversation, which is
often so taboo in society and relationships in general, how
(27:38):
did you both get to a place of being able
to have that conversation and Kirsten for you being able
to receive it and move forward.
Speaker 5 (27:45):
Yeah. So first I would say it's just love, right,
like there was an undeniable love and an attraction there.
And the second part, I would say it was bewildering
because I was just so confused as to why I
was so willing to throw away something that I really
really loved it, enjoy out of this deeprooted fear. And
so luckily the sort of rational part of my brain
(28:06):
was like, like, why would you do that? Why would
you throw that away?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
And Kirsten to follow up, Yeah, what Jack asked, how
were you able to receive it and not be defensive
and you know, reject Julian because he was so different
than you were in terms of his attitudes.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Thank you for putting in nice, so different, so different.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Well, I think this is where the other side of
the faith coin comes in. I knew that there needed
to be grace there for him and for me, and
I actually was quite defensive, and that was my first
indicator that like, maybe he was right, because I think
when people get defensive, they tend to think that they're
standing up for themselves or defending themselves, because you don't
get defensive when you think somebody is wrong. When somebody's wrong,
(28:53):
you're like, whatever, that's crazy, Like that's crazy talk. You
get defensive when you feel that they may be kind
of right, Like you get defensive when it's like, ooh,
that's stung a little bit. You saw something in me
that I kind of believe myself that I know I
know better, but I'm doing this differently. And so when
I took that time to actually kind of audit my behaviors,
look at how reckless or loose I was being with
(29:16):
my finances, I was like, he kind of has a point.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
I'd like to ask all three of you a question,
and that is how much tension now arises between spouses
or partners because so many more women are working, and
that means in some cases, women are out earning their husbands.
And I think in some traditional marriages, or if like
(29:39):
the husband didn't have a working mom, that can sometimes
be an affront to their manhood in some ways, even
if it's subconsciously so, that can create all kinds of
issues in a marriage, can it not.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
We see that and hear that all the time. I
think there's two sides of that coin. On the one hand,
because women are more likely to be breadwinners than they
were before, it's giving way for men to be more
active fathers and take paternity leave and perhaps opt into
being a stay at home dad and get the breaks
from their career that they desire. But on the other hand,
(30:15):
women are learning what it feels like to have the
power of being the breadwinner, and there's some fumbling along
the way. We're hearing a lot of people either coming
into the realization that they need a plan, a lot
of women specifically coming into the realization that they need
a plan. Even when you look at pre nups, the
leading cohort, leading generation of prenups are millennial women asking
(30:36):
for them, requesting them, making sure that that's the foundation
of their marriage. Because this idea very similar to jobs,
which has gone through a similar cultural transition. This idea
that something is forever ever is becoming less and less
statistically relevant, and so protecting yourself going in is more
important now than it was before. And then the same
(30:58):
it's just true with divorcing. We hear from a lot
of women who are basically starting over. They lost a
great bit of their savings and divorce. A lot of
the conversations that we have are about encouraging people to
leave the shame behind and start to tell the story
so that other people can learn and so that we
socially can make some of these conversations and these decisions
(31:19):
more normalized as the future, as future generations continue to
get married.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
We're almost out of time, but I want to ask
you all about how you deal with financial disagreements, because
nobody's perfect, and I'm sure you occasionally don't see eye
to eye on financial issues. And since it's the cause
of so much marital strife, you have figured out a
(31:44):
way to get through things when you have a disagreement.
So let's talk about those. One is Elmo. What does
that mean? So?
Speaker 4 (31:55):
Elmo is an acronym for enough, let's move on. And
we actually so when our son was little, used to
have an Elmo doll that we just put on the table,
like okay, Elmo. Because there's a way of talking around
a subjects so much that you lose the plot and
we forget what we're talking about. And so sometimes we'll
get into keeping score, bringing up old stuff, adding in
(32:16):
other stories from other people, and if it's not productive.
We'll just say okay, Elmo and move on to the
next thing.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
You also have, tell me more. That's the opposite of Elmo.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
But it was clearly a rule that was designed for
me or people like me. But it's really just a
way to ensure that you are inviting your partner into
a conversation about money, giving them room or space to
explore their idea. And you're basically just when they ask
for that crazy thing or bring up that crazy thing,
tell me more. And by the third or fourth tell
(32:50):
me more. By the time you get to the third
or fourth thing, they bother talk themselves out of it,
or they've brought up a red line point. Yeah. And
it's just creates an environment where I think you are
inviting someone else to share their point of view, as
opposed to saying, nope, here's my heart fast rule. It's
not in a budget. I'm gonna shut this thing down.
Because reality is, these things are natural. You're gonna have ideas,
(33:13):
You're gonna have temptations, and I think everyone deserves an
opportunity to explore them.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
I see your son walking in the background, so cute.
And by the way, I love I love your safe
word too, you have to come up with that.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Yeah, So this was a way because I'm the more
conflict averse one in the group, and so this was
a way for me to exit a conversation or say
I need a pause before things got even more escalated.
If I needed to collect myself emotionally, we would come
up with this safe word. And our safe word is donuts.
(33:48):
And so in the middle of a conversation, I can say, like, yo, donuts,
I'm done talking about this. I don't want to cry
right now, like I'm too emotional, Like donuts, let's just
revisit this next week. And it's so slight, it's in
the middle of a sentence, but it's enough to be like.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
All right.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
I really admire the work that both of you have
put into allowing communication, getting to know each other's stories.
If more people were doing what they're doing, we could
save a lot of marriages of just having the conversation
and loving each other. I think you mentioned that earlier, Julian, like,
you have this person that you love, so why would
you let money come in between it when it's something
(34:26):
that definitely can be navigated.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
So kudos to both of you. Thank you for being
an example. It's taken me a.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
While to get to where I am. I didn't just
come out the womb knowing how to deal with money.
We know that, so given everybody that grace. It's something
that we have to keep in mind and keeping the
communication open. All of that is needed, slowing down conversations
about money.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Also having your boundaries around money.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
These are all things when we mentioned earlier of having
a plan in the beginning, what are your values around money,
what are your non negotiables, and sharing that with your
family in a very kind and understanding way. I think
that's how you set up those boundaries and get everybody
on the same page and they secretly will learn from
you in that process.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Well, this was so fun. I've learned so much. I've
really loved getting to know you all virtually. Jacqueline aka Jack,
and Julian and Kirsten, thank you so much for spending
time with us. This was really interesting. I know my
money story. I'm money vigilance.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
In other words, I'm cheap frue goal. I prefer frugal
to cheat anyway, Thank you all so much. This was
really a great conversation.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I so appreciate it you take care.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for
me or want to share your thoughts about how you
navigate this crazy world reach out. You can leave a
short message at six oh nine five point two by
five oh five, or you can send me a DM
on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next
Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.
(36:06):
The executive producers are Meet, Katie Kuric and Courtney Ltz.
Our supervising producer is Marcy Thompson. Our producers are Adriana
Fazzio and Catherine Law. Our audio engineer is Matt Russell,
who also composed our theme music. For more information about
today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter, wake
Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app,
(36:29):
or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also
find me on Instagram and all my social media channels.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Katie Couric
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