May 30, 2024 • 44 mins
You know Renée Fleming as one of the most famous and beloved sopranos in history. You may not know that Renée struggled mightily with stage fright for most of her career. Her experiences sparked a passionate interest in brain science, and she found a kindred spirit in Dr Francis Collins, former NIH director and fellow musician. This unlikely duo is working together to bring attention and much needed funding to the healing power of sound for ailments ranging from Alzheimer’s to chronic pain. A world with less pharmaceutical intervention and more singing, dancing, and community? We’re in.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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(00:21):
slash Katiecuric. Hi everyone, I'm Katiekuric and this is next question.
(01:18):
That was the incomparable Renee Fleming. You know, once when
I was walking near Lincoln Center a few years ago,
some tourists stopped and said, I just love you, Renee,
and I was like what. Then I realized she thought
I was Renee Fleming, which was such a compliment, even
though I can't really sing and certainly not like Renee Flemy.
(01:47):
It may surprise you all to learn that Renee has
long suffered from anxiety and even physical pain as a
result of crippling stage fright. That got her wondering why
is this happening? She became obsessed by the mind body
connection and has spent years exploring the topic. Along the way,
(02:07):
she met doctor Francis Collins, who shared her curiosity and
love of music. The former director of the National Institutes
of Health, is an avid guitarist and bluegrass junkie. Their
relationship was a match made in research heaven. In fact,
Francis wrote the forward of Renee's new book called Music
(02:28):
and Mind, Harnessing the Arts for Health and Wellness. I
recently had an opportunity to speak with both of them.
So here's our conversation about your brain on music.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Hi, Renee, how are you?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I am great. You know, I'm such a fan and
I feel like we've become friends in recent years, which
has been a real highlight for me. And before I
talk about your incredible book and your extraordinary work, by
the way, I want listeners to know a little more
about your background. We recently had a cup of coffee
(03:30):
and I was embarrassed to say I didn't know as
much about your childhood as I should have. And your parents, Renee,
were both music teachers. Is that where you got your gift?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well, I would say that's where I had no choice,
because you know, we just lived and breathed music starting
from a very early age. In fact, you know, I
was told that I sang before I spoke. I was
a very late speaker, and that's probably true, you know,
and we you know, we were kind of taking road
trips and singing the road signs in harmony, and I
(04:05):
thought everyone did that. I thought that was just normal,
and then I just kept up with it. And I
think that, you know, some of the early learning is
really helpful because music is a language, and so it
becomes one of the languages that you speak as a child.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Did your parents have extraordinary voices like you? And what
about your siblings? And if not, were they pissed that
you did and they didn't?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Now everybody, you know, there's so many There were so
many great voices out there. It's just but finding your
way to a high level career and singing is another
whole thing. You know. They say the voice is ten percent.
And my parents were wonderful teachers and musicians and fat
my father's still alive. Actually, what did.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Your dad play and what did your mom play?
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Well?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
They were both singers, Oh, both singers. Yeah, they were
both singers, and they both played keyboard to some extent.
My sister teaches very high level goji for non classical
singers at Temple University, so she's producing the next generation
at Broadway stars, and my brother sings at a rock band,
(05:10):
but he teaches technology in middle school in Newer Shelles,
so we're all. Everybody's an educator. My other little brother,
actually my little brother sings in the Houston Grand Opera Chorus,
so he is a professional singer.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Wow. So you all obviously were bitten by the bug.
And if you aren't directly involved with music your music adjacent.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Well, I think it might surprise a lot of people
Renee that you don't consider yourself a natural performer. And
you experienced some intense stage fright when you were a
teenager and a little bit later in your life when
I think you were just dealing with a lot of
pressure and stress, So that I understand led you to
(05:54):
be interested in the mind body connection. Can you talk
about how that happened and why?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Absolutely?
Speaker 4 (06:02):
So.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Yeah, the pressure for performance in our field is really high.
We are we are literally reviewed in the newspaper the
day after we perform almost every time, and certainly for
most of my career that was, and the and the
standards and the by which we are judged were very high.
So it's not easy to be us. And and add
(06:25):
to that that it's a tightrope that the fact that
we're singing virtuosic music alone on stage without a microphone,
so there's no nobody's adding to the sound or making
it more beautiful or adding auto tune, very naked on stage,
and so that that produced not only stage right, but
I had sematic pain, which is a kind of a
(06:47):
psychosomatic pain, which nearly derailed my career a couple of times.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
When did those moments surface, Because it's interesting if you
think about what was going on in your life right Renee,
first as a teenager and later I know, when you
had your two children and your marriage was falling.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Apart absolutely, And you know, first of all, the stage
right started in middle school, started at a very young
age because I was incredibly shy. I was a bookworm,
so I did not have an ounce of natural performer
in me and I had to learn it had I
learned it literally by by observing my friends who for
whom it was easy. And you know, Juilliard at Eastman
(07:28):
and when I studied abroad, so I picked those skills
up kind of. But yeah, when you have life stressors,
then everything falls apart, and in my case, I think
it was the stage right, served as a kind of
a hedge against the pressure but also against not making
life changes that I needed to make. And you know,
(07:51):
I feel lucky that I got the right support and
I was able to get through it without stopping, because
we know very famous people who have stopped performing and
sometimes they don't go back for twenty years.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
You say there were a lot of factors RENEE involved
in your I guess maybe panic attack or discomfort on stage,
and you say one was a deep seated discomfort with success.
Now I've never heard of that, but when I thought
about it, you're right, you right. We can all point
to celebrities or politicians who have sabotaged their careers with
(08:25):
drug and alcohol abuse or other poor choices. Part of
the problem is that you're being taken far from your
roots and comfort zone, maybe to a level of success
that's far beyond your friends and family, and that's uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Right, Exactly. It's really kind of intuitive when one thinks
about it, that, yeah, what causes people to burn up
their lives when they're really achieving greatness, And in many
cases it is definitely that you've come too far from
your comfort zone as a human being. From your comfort zone.
Is you know how you grew up et cetera, or
(09:02):
you weren't prepared to succeed and to excel somehow you
know you were made to believe on some it's always
a subconscious level. It's never conscious, right that you know
something bad would happen if you did really well?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
How did you fix it? How did you deal with
it those times where you have this crippling anxiety and fear.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Well, there are two ways. One is to understand the
root so that that take that's therapy, and the other
are behavioral therapy, so you know, rekind of tuning or
thinking about performing. I had to stop seeing the audience
as judgmental, you know, I imagine everyone had a scorecard
and they were not well intentioned, right, And so once
(09:43):
I turned it around and it was a book by
barely sales on public speaking, I was able to see
myself as a conduit for something beautiful that I was
sharing giving to the audience. So I reversed the direction
of the experience of performing, and it it helped immensely.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
I think all of us, at one time or another
have felt dramatically moved by a piece of music or art.
It's so interesting when something hits you, it's almost all
of your senses are swept away. I've had that experience.
I'm sure probably hearing you sing Renee, but you know,
(10:24):
many many times. So talk about this feeling for people
listening and are trying to understand the real neurological connection
that's going on between music and your entire being.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Well, it's very much embedded in our DNA, and it's
been with us since before we spoke, I mean really
the beginning of humans, and it's incredibly powerful. From my
perspective on stage, it's a flow state. I'm in the
zone when I'm performing. It induces feelings of awe and
awe has now by sciences been proven to be something
(11:01):
incredibly beneficial. But what's wonderful about it in terms of
the fact that it's so much a part of our lives.
Any aesthetic experience, whether it's being in nature or seeing
visual art, or just looking at design and architecture, has
a huge effect on our biology. Really down to the
cellular level. It's the elephant in the room. As my
(11:23):
friends who's a maximmon says, it is something that we
take for granted and we don't really understand how powerful
it is. And now the fact that science is looking
at it, is researching it, is looking at the brain
when we're having these experiences is teaching us a lot.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Let's talk about your book because it really stems from
a conversation with Francis Collins, who is head of the
NIH in twenty fifteen. He's also an amateur musician. So
tell us about that meeting and how it led to
your commitment to this work, because Renee, I mean, you've
really gone there. You have dug deep into this topic.
(12:02):
Tell us about that initial meeting.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
So we were at this really interesting dinner party because
it was the day after the marriage equality decision by
the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Francis also remembers this dinner.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
It was very remarkable and the kind of thing that
you can't imagine could have really happened, but it did. So, yeah,
it was nine years ago. It was like this summer
of twenty fifteen. There was a dinner party for thirty
or forty people at an exclusive and outside of Washington,
d C. And my wife and I were invited, and
amongst the nvites were three Supreme Court.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg Antonin Scalia and Kennedy were all there. Wow,
it was tense. It was tense, and I was seated
between RBG and Scalia because they're both.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Oh god, although they're very good friends, are they were
very good friends?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yes, but this was tough. You know, his rebuttal was
really scathing, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
And they had just the day before their decision about
a gay marriage. And let's just say, some of the
opinions there were pretty strongly worked it. Stealia and Gettensburg
were on different sides of this, and Kennedy was sort
of the tiebreaker. So everything was a little tense, ah
(13:19):
during the dinner, and then we went outside after It's
a lovely summer evening and there was a bluegrass band
that had been hired to come and play a few
tunes to hopefully lighten the occasion. And the organizers knew
that I'm a bit of a bluegrass fan and told
we will bring your guitar and maybe you could join in,
So of course I did. How fun, Yeah, it might
(13:41):
surprise people that I would actually know the tunes like
Soldiers Joy and Red Wing, but it was easy to
jump in. But still it was not quite clicking. You
could sort of feel the group had not really come
together at that point. And then this incredibly stunning woman
I'd never met before I came up to the band
(14:03):
and said, you know, maybe we ought to get everybody
to sing. Maybe that would help sort of bring us
all together. And I gradually realized, oh my god, this
is Renee.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Let me and you all became fast friends that night,
didn't she did.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I was initially terrified that she would want to sing opera,
which was not in my repertory, but that much Renee
knows music from every possible genre and was immediately comfortable
with jumping in with folk songs like the Water Is
Wide and Shenandoah and within you know, a song or two.
Pretty much everybody stopped looking glom and tense and joined
(14:41):
in and began to sing with us, including Scalia, singing lustily,
raising his brandy glass and his cigar. And something really
happened there. It was a perfect example of how music,
down through probably hundreds of thousands of years, has brought
people together at a time where or maybe they weren't
feeling so friendly to each other. Music behinds us, music
(15:04):
inspires us. It happened that evening It's happened lots of
other jobs before and since, and that was pretty impressive.
And so after all of this, al Renee said, you know,
I'm about to start a special year at the Kennedy
Center where I'm supposed to be an advisor, and I'm
kind of looking for a project to throw myself into.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Got the ideas, and so he said, we have a
new Brain and institute. We want to understand it's an initiative.
We want to understand this incredibly complex organ the most
complex thing in the universe, really, and so music is
one of the ways that we can do that. So
now they've funded since we started our project, which is
Sound Health with the NEA the Kennedy Center. I'm an
(15:48):
advisor there.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I know, and you did a nineteen part series. I
was watching some of them last night. I mean, that
was a huge commitment. I think you did it during
the pandemic. But you did a whole series of webinars
really on every aspect of music and the brain, which
I guess in some ways laid the framework for the book. Right.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Well, it certainly did, I mean, and Vivic Morti is
now our Surgeon General, has really become a champion for
this work. As well, and the NIH has spent thirty
million dollars funding music research. I mean, nobody would have
predicted that when I met him.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
This summer. Just in about a month is the major
symposium of the Brain Initiative, which NIH has been supporting
now for seven years, started by President Obama in the
way back then, and which has now hundreds and hundreds
of scientists working on it, people with expertise and neuroscience
but also in robotics and engineering and everything you could
(16:45):
think of. And there's going to be all symposium at
that meeting about music and how it's going to teach
us things about how the basic science of the brain works,
but also teach us how to be even more effective
in this non pharmacological of providing healing to people who
are suffering. And everybody kind of wants to see that
happen too, So we're getting the momentum. The will woo
(17:07):
reaction seems to be fading as people are more and
more like, oh, maybe there's something useful to here.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
When we come back. Renee illuminates the powerful connection between
music and memory, and I remember listening to Frank Sinatra
in my family's basement.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Thank everyone needs.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
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(17:51):
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(18:11):
at talkspace dot com slash Katie Curic. We're back with
Renee Fleming and doctor Francis Collins. Is a lot of
this about memory, so it's interesting. My friend Peter Sincottie,
I don't know if you know Peter. He's a great
(18:34):
jazz pianist and vocalist. And I told him that I
had a song that I thought he should perform and record,
and I'm going to play it for you because I
just love this song. I love the words I love
everything about it.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Here's to those who love not to wisely, No, not wisely,
but too well. To the girl who's song eyes with
envy when she hears that wedding bow. To the guy
who throw party if he knew someone to call. Here's
(19:13):
to the loser, bless.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Renee. I used to listen to that song in my basement.
My dad had an album Frank Sinatra. It was the
Capitol Records Years, and I absolutely love that song. So
when Peter sent that to me, I just had a
rush of memories. First of all, I loved the words,
I love the tune. I love everything about this song,
(19:40):
and it's kind of an obscure. I was going to
look up who wrote it, but Frank Sinatra recorded it
with the Nelson Riddle Orchestra, and I want It made
me wonder how much of our attraction and being swept
away and for us to be in a certain flow
has to do with memory and experiences.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Well, memory is incredibly powerful and very much connected to music.
So that's why, for instance, a couple of things. One
is that if you hear a song, you're taken back
to your wedding or your high school graduation or whatever.
Formative experiences you've had, and it's immediate, you know, and
the nervous system and also the brain. It's so much
(20:22):
about the brain. But basically, and you can switch, you
can go back, you can hear the next song and
it will take you to a different memory. So it's
really it's incredibly powerful. But what we're discovering for Alzheimer's patients,
which is something everyone is afraid of now talking all
over the country, and that's the leading I would say
subject around which people have anxiety. But memories are very
(20:47):
much connected to our experience. So that's one of them.
That's one of I would say the most powerful courses
of research right now.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Pain is another, So Francis, music can actually ease physical pain.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I'll give you our own little personal example. Just ten
days ago, I was in the hospital after a major surgery.
I was having a pretty bad time in the postop phase,
and I really didn't want to indulge in a lot
of narcotics to try to handle the pain. So instead
I decided, Okay, I'm going to take my own medicine here.
(21:20):
Let's see if we can use music therapy to get
me through a tough couple of days. And after doing
a lot of listening to James Taylor and a lot
of Alison Krause.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I love Alison Krause.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Oh my god. Yes, And this one may seem odd
to you, but I'm also a fan of a really
wonderful pipe organ performance. So I pulled up a lot
on YouTube all the amazing pipe organ performances of bach
preludes and fugues being played on organ c in Europe
that are just amazing, and I got lost in all
(21:55):
of that and sort of the pain it was still there.
I knew it was there, but it wasn't near is intrusive.
I was kind of getting the benefit of this. Well,
that was a short term couple of days, but certainly
for people with chronic pain that doesn't go away. The
benefits also are becoming more and more clear. And NIH
has a big program right now investing in rigorous studies
(22:15):
of this to try to see what are the nuances
that lead to a better outcome, because again, right now
it's a little empirical, and maybe there's a way we
could be even more effective if we understood it.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
It's interesting because you know Dan Levitton, who does a
neuromapping really in the chapter that he writes for my
book talks exactly about where this all lives in the
brain and how it works and how it's tied together.
But the reason the NIH is studying music is because
music is in every known part of the mapped brain today,
(22:47):
and that's incredibly powerful. There are almost no other activities
that are that widespread in the brain. And part of
it is the complexity of engaging with music. You know,
it's hearing, it's rhythm, so it's you know, movement. Also,
it's memory, it's language because we're we're often thinking about
words to go with these things. You know, it's just
(23:09):
a very complex activity. And if you're making music, it's
triply so.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
And I know that when they mapped your brain singing renee,
it showed areas of your brain lighting up that don't
light up when you're speaking.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Right, correct. And what was surprise the scientists in my
fMRI study. I was in that machine for two hours,
my goodness, and you were singing away, yeah, singing away
like you know many you know, many repetitions. But what
surprised them was that imagining singing was more powerful than
the other two. Really, and speaking or singing, Wow, that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
So just thinking of songs, and does the thing go
for people who can't sing or who prefer listening over singing.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Maybe not. Maybe singing for them would be more more
kind of almost traumatic to have to sing in an
MRI machine, So that might have been more active, you know,
they said to They actually did sort of surmise that
because I'm a singer, it's a bit second nature, right right,
But while imagining, I had to tune out the noise
of the fMRI, of the MRI, I had to focus,
(24:20):
et cetera. So it was a little different.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
That's interesting. So, but the same benefits of singing again
for people who are not blessed with your amazing voice.
I mean, it doesn't keep me from singing just because
I can't sing like you, Renee. But what about people
who are just listening to music? Can you talk about
what that does to the brain.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Well, first of all, you're a pianist, so you are
a musician, which is so fabulous that you had that training.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Well it's more, you know what's really weird, Renee, is
I play by ear now and I play mostly like
Irving Berlin in the key of C because it's hard
for me to play implicated like Billy Joel songs with
a lot of flats or sharps. But while I took
piano for ten years, when I sit down, I just
(25:10):
sound out music that I like and just play it.
And that's I don't know. I'm the only one in
my family who can do that, and I was hoping
my daughters would be able to play by ear, but
they can't either. Where does that come from?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
First of all, I'm really jealous. You know. I had
the chance to take jazz harmony from a jazz musician
in graduate school, and I in exchange for voice lessons,
and I wish I had done it, because to be
able to play by ear. First of all, that's the
most relaxing thing you can do, I know, because it's
improvisation and you have to shut off the part of
(25:46):
your frontal lobe which judges you have to that has
to turn off for you to be able to do that,
which has got to be great for your health. And
so listening to music, what's fascinating about it is it's
been shown to be incredible beneficial for anxiety, for depression,
for pain. So it's really beneficial to listen to music,
(26:07):
and especially we do it anyway. We use playlists for
exercise or cooking or you know, walking.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
So, but what is it renee that is there a
particular place in your brain it impacts, like for pain,
does it light up a part of your brain? And
then it sort of overcomes the part of your brain
that is having to deal with pain, Like how does
it work?
Speaker 2 (26:33):
So it can be a distraction. It's releasing chemicals into
your brain and doorphins and these are feel good chemicals.
So it's it's it's incredibly helpful for our health to
do this, especially especially today today's stressors. This year is
going to be rough. We know that. So I've I've
actually become a poster child for neural arts and I'm
(26:54):
doing artistic things every day that I enjoy and getting
away from the news, very upsetting opinion news. I'm really
just not doing it this year. Yeah, so it's helping me,
but I can't tell you how much happier I am.
So and listening to music is one of those things.
So it's really about the release of chemicals in your
(27:14):
brain that makes this work. And then they also talk
about the fact that one of the things I don't
know if you ever you know, if you hurt yourself,
if you cut yourself and then you bump your knee, yeah,
the initial pain goes away because you're now distracted by
the new pain.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
So right, Well, whenever I'm getting a shot or like botox, yeah,
once in a while, I will pinch my hand really
really hard, so I'm focused on the pain in my
hand instead of the pain in my forehead. Confessions here
on next question with Katie Couric.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Exactly, and also, you know, frankly, listening to music can
also work the same way. It is a distraction, but
more than that, it does something really positive.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
You mentioned patients with Alzheimer's, and you and I have
talked about this as well. There was a documentary a
few years back. I wonder if it's available. I interviewed
the people behind it, and then there was like some
breaking news story so it never aired and they were crestfallen,
so I know. And it's called Alive Inside, and it
(28:22):
was about people giving elderly folks and nursing homes. I
guess at the time maybe iPods and earphones or whatever,
and how their personas completely changed when they heard music
that they knew and recognized and loved.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
It. Can't get away from me if I'm in this place.
It takes food to my school. They Oh god, beautiful.
Does it make you happy to sing for us? That's
the memory piece Stan Cohen's film, It's Beautiful. It's on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Is it okay? I highly recommend Alive Inside Everybody because
it's pretty extraordinary. And I learned so much from your book,
and I thought we could just talk about a few
of the points quickly. You write that hearing is I
knew this, by the way, when my dad was in
hospice and he was dying, and I was very, very
close to my dad. He was just an amazing person.
(29:27):
I brought a little speaker to the hospital room and
my phone and I played all his favorite songs. When
I used to play the piano, he'd yell down to
the basement, Katie, play as Time goes by, or I'll
be seeing you. And so I played all of these
wonderful songs that I knew he loved because I had
(29:49):
always heard that hearing was the last to go. But
tell me about why we haven't done more research on that.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Well, it's been hard to do the research on anything artistic.
So it's the brain imaging and it's the fact that
technology has really expanded that's allowing us now to see
all of this. So it's new. It's basically relatively new
because but technology makes it possible. So what's interesting about
that is my husband's aunt at the end of her
(30:21):
life didn't know anyone around her, didn't speak. I was there,
I saw this, But if you said I'm looking, she
would finish the whole song over for leave Clover exactly.
She would finish the song with words absolutely perfect. And
there are five or six songs that she would do
(30:41):
and I just sort of thought, this is actually joyful,
and you know, these were pieces from her childhood. But
she didn't open her eyes and she didn't know anyone.
So it is the last memory to go. Music memory,
and that's why researchers are using it to try and
extend that that moment of a liveness that you see
(31:03):
in the film. I mean, look at the Henry segments.
They're really powerful.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Francis. What music can do for these patients is really remarkable.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
You know, on some of the more dramatic examples that
I have seen in terms of how music can help
in that situation where people who have had strokes that
affect the speech area of the brains, all called Broca's area.
Most people are locked in in a terribly frustrating way.
They know what they want to say, but they cannot
make the words come out. They can understand what people
(31:34):
are saying to them, but they can't interact backwards. But
guess what if you ask them to sing of the
Happy Birthday song, they can do it, And once they
realize they can do it, then you can start to
retrain their communication ability by singing it instead of singing it.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yeah, and that's also something important for people to know
that even talking to someone you may not think is
there is really important at the end of someone's life.
Did you know early humans sang before they spoke? Renee
explains right after this. If you want to get smarter
(32:18):
every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating
takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up
for our daily newsletter, Wake Up Call by going to
Katiecuric dot com. Now more from Renee and Francis. You
(32:39):
mentioned that you sang before you spoke, but that's really
true of our species, that a lot of humans sang
before they spoke. Can you explain that to.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Me, well, we don't, you know, we can't know what happened. Then,
you know, researchers are looking at animals now and birds
and dogs and horses and to kind of try and
piece together what our evolution was artistically. But it makes
kind of a lot of sense that in order to survive, humans,
(33:10):
you know, could make vocal sounds that would be like
the animals they were hunting, so birds or whatever creatures
they were, and then eventually speech didn't develop until much
much later.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh how interesting.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, So you know, it's just it's really fascinating when
you think about that. In fact, there's a language I
just learned. I just came back from India and there's
a language there that they couldn't really decipher. It's done
enchanting by these by monks. And finally realized they said,
we believe that these songs predate speech. Wow, so people
(33:45):
are still singing them. It's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
That is interesting. You also point out that women suffering
from postpartum depression can benefit from singing an acchoir. Help
me understand that, Renee.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
So, you know, it surprised me. This is relatively new research.
But the World Health Organization is beginning to have tremendous
success by taking some of these findings to countries where
they are in a better position than we are to
kind of embed them in healthcare right away. So, but
it works. Singing an acquir somehow really improves the level
(34:19):
of depression, the level of difficulty that women with postpartum
depression are having, and singing an acquire has a lot
of benefits in They just did a study that compared
singing an acchoir was singing alone and singing an acquire
had better health outcomes.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Well, you can understand why, right, I mean, you have
a sense of community, you have kind of working literally
in harmony with others and feeling something greater than yourself.
I mean it makes total sense.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Right, totally, And and it strengthens immunity too. They found
but our brain waves align when we're in a shared
artistic experience, and that's meaningful, that's powerful, and that's definitely evolution.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
And that's also a huge argument to keep performing arts
programs in schools across the country right especially at a
time when young people are experiencing unprecedented anxiety and depression
and stress. I think maybe educators will understand how important
the arts are to your overall educational experience, right.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Absolutely, the art should stay in schools for a couple
of reasons. One is that it's good for you. It
helps kids with identity, with figuring out who they are.
They can be more creative as a result. But one
of the main purposes is truancy is becoming a tremendous problem,
especially in urban centers around the country, and an artistic
(35:49):
pursuit can keep kids in school, so that's major. One
of the things I would really like to see happen
is for creative arts therapists to be embedded in schools
to help with pro social behaviors and the kinds of
things we're talking about, but also to kind of give
morale to everybody, and they can work alongside arts educators too.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
You talk about your hope for reimagining performing arts venues
in order to serve the public in a very different
way too outside of schools. What is your vision for
that renee.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Well, there was a study done by Opera America that
interested me because it said that what people want is
to be together with their friends and families. That's why
they go to performances. They want to be seated and
the round. They want to be able to order drinks,
and so let's make it social, but let's make it
also a place where we exchange ideas together. So in
(36:43):
a way, I could envision performing arts centers becoming community centers.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
That would be wonderful, and I think we need it
more than ever. I think everyone's looking for experiences, right,
and sort of these experiential opera tunities, I think, certainly
after the pandemic, when you're all together with people sharing something.
And honestly, I think part of the problem with polarization
(37:10):
in this country, Renee, is that we all are in
our little silos, and this whole feeling of even the
nation or a big section of the population seeing something
at once at the same time and enjoying it has
become few and far between. I think that's why sports
(37:31):
are so popular, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
I mean sports definitely does that, and performing arts can
do it as well. But this loneliness and isolation are
at an all time high, and it's a worldwide problem.
Doctor Ted Drosid the World Health Organization told me he's
incredibly concerned because depression is up thirty percent in the
world and part of it is this isolation. So I
(37:55):
you know, the people in the US are not going
to performances as much as they did be for the
pandemic for a number of reasons.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
And they're not going to church in places like that
where you have that sense of community either and music,
by the way.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Well, and I would tell them this is not good
for your health. You folks have to get out, get
out and be with other people. So science and tells
us now that it's really important we are social creatures.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
It's interesting. I tried to pitch a documentary in twenty
eighteen prior to the pandemic, and I've interviewed Vivek Murphy
many times and nobody was interested. But now maybe with
these huge numbers, people might reconsider they thought it was
too much of a downer. I'm like, okay, whatever. Anyway,
let's go back to your book, Renee, because I just
(38:41):
want to finish up by asking you how you were
able to assemble such an incredible group of artists and scientists.
It includes essays written by everyone from Yo Yo Ma
to architect Liz Diller to scientists from MIT and Johns Hopkins.
How did you in the world, Renee, by the way,
(39:02):
with your day job? How did you assemble all these
experts and say, can you contribute to this book.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Well, I was trying to show the breadth of the
field as it currently exists and talk about the future
the pillars. Also, childhood development is a major pillar, and
I just asked, you know, I just asked repeatedly. It
took a long time to pull this together. And it's
a good reference also for people who kind of just
want to maybe they want to just go to one
(39:30):
specific section, but there are chapters that make people cry.
They're very surprised. There were two young men who saw
a need in their communities and they created initiatives that
are booming now, one in Philadelphia and one in New
York City. There's Roseanne Cash's chapter kills Me. I mean
what she went through with a wrongly diagnosed brain disorder
(39:52):
called kiari one and she and her recovery from that
as a musician. It's heroing. And you have you know,
Esperanza Spaulding and Rhianna Giittons and really interesting artists, writers
Richard Powers and and patch it so's I wanted it
to really be expansive.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Well, it's incredible what you've put together, Renee, And I'm
just so I mean, I'm not in a position to
be proud of you, but I'm so impressed by your
commitment to something because you know, obviously you want to
contribute more to the world than just your beautiful singing
voice and your artistic prowess, and you know it's time consuming.
(40:35):
How were you able to do it and to really
really spend so much time? You're clearly intellectually curious.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
So yes, yes, well, you know, I have wonderful Chasin
and Paul in my office, and I couldn't have done
it without Jason because he was the nuts and bolts,
gathering everything. What I didn't know about writing this book
because I had already written a book called The Inner Voice.
Was that an anthology? All the way falls to us
to me, So I really had to have help, no question.
(41:04):
But we did get it done, and I think it's beautiful.
I would also point to my friend's book Your Brain
on Art that was a bestseller last year for people
who like a broader kind of artistic experience. The neuroscience
book is fascinating and I'm working closely with them. Anyway,
I just announced we're about to announce scholars so I'm
(41:26):
funding now put your money where your mouth is right.
Grants for young scientists who partner with an artist.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
That is awesome.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
They're amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Well, wow, that's exciting. Well, you've given so much to
the world. It was so wonderful to see you as
a Kennedy Center honoree. So well deserved, and I know
that that was such a thrill. I wasn't there, but
I got to watch it, and what an incredible experience.
And I can't think of anyone more deserving. The book
(41:57):
that you've got out now is called Music Harnessing the
Arts for Health and Wellness. Renee, so great to see you.
Thank you so much for talking to me about all
your important work, because I think it's going to solve
a lot of problems if people actually implement some of
the ideas that are put forth in this book.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Thank you, Katie. I really appreciate your time and attention
to this. Thank you. I believe you and I agree.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
reach out. You can leave a short message at six
oh nine five point two five to five oh five,
or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I
would love to hear from you. Next Question is a
(42:51):
production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers
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is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and
Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more
information about today's episode, or to sign up for my
(43:13):
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(43:37):
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slash Katiecuric. Hi everyone, I'm Katiekuric and this is next question.
(01:18):
That was the incomparable Renee Fleming. You know, once when
I was walking near Lincoln Center a few years ago,
some tourists stopped and said, I just love you, Renee,
and I was like what. Then I realized she thought
I was Renee Fleming, which was such a compliment, even
though I can't really sing and certainly not like Renee Flemy.
(01:47):
It may surprise you all to learn that Renee has
long suffered from anxiety and even physical pain as a
result of crippling stage fright. That got her wondering why
is this happening? She became obsessed by the mind body
connection and has spent years exploring the topic. Along the way,
(02:07):
she met doctor Francis Collins, who shared her curiosity and
love of music. The former director of the National Institutes
of Health, is an avid guitarist and bluegrass junkie. Their
relationship was a match made in research heaven. In fact,
Francis wrote the forward of Renee's new book called Music
(02:28):
and Mind, Harnessing the Arts for Health and Wellness. I
recently had an opportunity to speak with both of them.
So here's our conversation about your brain on music.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Hi, Renee, how are you?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
I am great. You know, I'm such a fan and
I feel like we've become friends in recent years, which
has been a real highlight for me. And before I
talk about your incredible book and your extraordinary work, by
the way, I want listeners to know a little more
about your background. We recently had a cup of coffee
(03:30):
and I was embarrassed to say I didn't know as
much about your childhood as I should have. And your parents, Renee,
were both music teachers. Is that where you got your gift?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Well, I would say that's where I had no choice,
because you know, we just lived and breathed music starting
from a very early age. In fact, you know, I
was told that I sang before I spoke. I was
a very late speaker, and that's probably true, you know,
and we you know, we were kind of taking road
trips and singing the road signs in harmony, and I
(04:05):
thought everyone did that. I thought that was just normal,
and then I just kept up with it. And I
think that, you know, some of the early learning is
really helpful because music is a language, and so it
becomes one of the languages that you speak as a child.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Did your parents have extraordinary voices like you? And what
about your siblings? And if not, were they pissed that
you did and they didn't?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Now everybody, you know, there's so many There were so
many great voices out there. It's just but finding your
way to a high level career and singing is another
whole thing. You know. They say the voice is ten percent.
And my parents were wonderful teachers and musicians and fat
my father's still alive. Actually, what did.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Your dad play and what did your mom play?
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Well?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
They were both singers, Oh, both singers. Yeah, they were
both singers, and they both played keyboard to some extent.
My sister teaches very high level goji for non classical
singers at Temple University, so she's producing the next generation
at Broadway stars, and my brother sings at a rock band,
(05:10):
but he teaches technology in middle school in Newer Shelles,
so we're all. Everybody's an educator. My other little brother,
actually my little brother sings in the Houston Grand Opera Chorus,
so he is a professional singer.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Wow. So you all obviously were bitten by the bug.
And if you aren't directly involved with music your music adjacent.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yes, definitely.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Well, I think it might surprise a lot of people
Renee that you don't consider yourself a natural performer. And
you experienced some intense stage fright when you were a
teenager and a little bit later in your life when
I think you were just dealing with a lot of
pressure and stress, So that I understand led you to
(05:54):
be interested in the mind body connection. Can you talk
about how that happened and why?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Absolutely?
Speaker 4 (06:02):
So.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Yeah, the pressure for performance in our field is really high.
We are we are literally reviewed in the newspaper the
day after we perform almost every time, and certainly for
most of my career that was, and the and the
standards and the by which we are judged were very high.
So it's not easy to be us. And and add
(06:25):
to that that it's a tightrope that the fact that
we're singing virtuosic music alone on stage without a microphone,
so there's no nobody's adding to the sound or making
it more beautiful or adding auto tune, very naked on stage,
and so that that produced not only stage right, but
I had sematic pain, which is a kind of a
(06:47):
psychosomatic pain, which nearly derailed my career a couple of times.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
When did those moments surface, Because it's interesting if you
think about what was going on in your life right Renee,
first as a teenager and later I know, when you
had your two children and your marriage was falling.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Apart absolutely, And you know, first of all, the stage
right started in middle school, started at a very young
age because I was incredibly shy. I was a bookworm,
so I did not have an ounce of natural performer
in me and I had to learn it had I
learned it literally by by observing my friends who for
whom it was easy. And you know, Juilliard at Eastman
(07:28):
and when I studied abroad, so I picked those skills
up kind of. But yeah, when you have life stressors,
then everything falls apart, and in my case, I think
it was the stage right, served as a kind of
a hedge against the pressure but also against not making
life changes that I needed to make. And you know,
(07:51):
I feel lucky that I got the right support and
I was able to get through it without stopping, because
we know very famous people who have stopped performing and
sometimes they don't go back for twenty years.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
You say there were a lot of factors RENEE involved
in your I guess maybe panic attack or discomfort on stage,
and you say one was a deep seated discomfort with success.
Now I've never heard of that, but when I thought
about it, you're right, you right. We can all point
to celebrities or politicians who have sabotaged their careers with
(08:25):
drug and alcohol abuse or other poor choices. Part of
the problem is that you're being taken far from your
roots and comfort zone, maybe to a level of success
that's far beyond your friends and family, and that's uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Right, Exactly. It's really kind of intuitive when one thinks
about it, that, yeah, what causes people to burn up
their lives when they're really achieving greatness, And in many
cases it is definitely that you've come too far from
your comfort zone as a human being. From your comfort zone.
Is you know how you grew up et cetera, or
(09:02):
you weren't prepared to succeed and to excel somehow you
know you were made to believe on some it's always
a subconscious level. It's never conscious, right that you know
something bad would happen if you did really well?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
How did you fix it? How did you deal with
it those times where you have this crippling anxiety and fear.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Well, there are two ways. One is to understand the
root so that that take that's therapy, and the other
are behavioral therapy, so you know, rekind of tuning or
thinking about performing. I had to stop seeing the audience
as judgmental, you know, I imagine everyone had a scorecard
and they were not well intentioned, right, And so once
(09:43):
I turned it around and it was a book by
barely sales on public speaking, I was able to see
myself as a conduit for something beautiful that I was
sharing giving to the audience. So I reversed the direction
of the experience of performing, and it it helped immensely.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
I think all of us, at one time or another
have felt dramatically moved by a piece of music or art.
It's so interesting when something hits you, it's almost all
of your senses are swept away. I've had that experience.
I'm sure probably hearing you sing Renee, but you know,
(10:24):
many many times. So talk about this feeling for people
listening and are trying to understand the real neurological connection
that's going on between music and your entire being.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Well, it's very much embedded in our DNA, and it's
been with us since before we spoke, I mean really
the beginning of humans, and it's incredibly powerful. From my
perspective on stage, it's a flow state. I'm in the
zone when I'm performing. It induces feelings of awe and
awe has now by sciences been proven to be something
(11:01):
incredibly beneficial. But what's wonderful about it in terms of
the fact that it's so much a part of our lives.
Any aesthetic experience, whether it's being in nature or seeing
visual art, or just looking at design and architecture, has
a huge effect on our biology. Really down to the
cellular level. It's the elephant in the room. As my
(11:23):
friends who's a maximmon says, it is something that we
take for granted and we don't really understand how powerful
it is. And now the fact that science is looking
at it, is researching it, is looking at the brain
when we're having these experiences is teaching us a lot.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Let's talk about your book because it really stems from
a conversation with Francis Collins, who is head of the
NIH in twenty fifteen. He's also an amateur musician. So
tell us about that meeting and how it led to
your commitment to this work, because Renee, I mean, you've
really gone there. You have dug deep into this topic.
(12:02):
Tell us about that initial meeting.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
So we were at this really interesting dinner party because
it was the day after the marriage equality decision by
the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Francis also remembers this dinner.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
It was very remarkable and the kind of thing that
you can't imagine could have really happened, but it did. So, yeah,
it was nine years ago. It was like this summer
of twenty fifteen. There was a dinner party for thirty
or forty people at an exclusive and outside of Washington,
d C. And my wife and I were invited, and
amongst the nvites were three Supreme Court.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg Antonin Scalia and Kennedy were all there. Wow,
it was tense. It was tense, and I was seated
between RBG and Scalia because they're both.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Oh god, although they're very good friends, are they were
very good friends?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yes, but this was tough. You know, his rebuttal was
really scathing, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
And they had just the day before their decision about
a gay marriage. And let's just say, some of the
opinions there were pretty strongly worked it. Stealia and Gettensburg
were on different sides of this, and Kennedy was sort
of the tiebreaker. So everything was a little tense, ah
(13:19):
during the dinner, and then we went outside after It's
a lovely summer evening and there was a bluegrass band
that had been hired to come and play a few
tunes to hopefully lighten the occasion. And the organizers knew
that I'm a bit of a bluegrass fan and told
we will bring your guitar and maybe you could join in,
So of course I did. How fun, Yeah, it might
(13:41):
surprise people that I would actually know the tunes like
Soldiers Joy and Red Wing, but it was easy to
jump in. But still it was not quite clicking. You
could sort of feel the group had not really come
together at that point. And then this incredibly stunning woman
I'd never met before I came up to the band
(14:03):
and said, you know, maybe we ought to get everybody
to sing. Maybe that would help sort of bring us
all together. And I gradually realized, oh my god, this
is Renee.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Let me and you all became fast friends that night,
didn't she did.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
I was initially terrified that she would want to sing opera,
which was not in my repertory, but that much Renee
knows music from every possible genre and was immediately comfortable
with jumping in with folk songs like the Water Is
Wide and Shenandoah and within you know, a song or two.
Pretty much everybody stopped looking glom and tense and joined
(14:41):
in and began to sing with us, including Scalia, singing lustily,
raising his brandy glass and his cigar. And something really
happened there. It was a perfect example of how music,
down through probably hundreds of thousands of years, has brought
people together at a time where or maybe they weren't
feeling so friendly to each other. Music behinds us, music
(15:04):
inspires us. It happened that evening It's happened lots of
other jobs before and since, and that was pretty impressive.
And so after all of this, al Renee said, you know,
I'm about to start a special year at the Kennedy
Center where I'm supposed to be an advisor, and I'm
kind of looking for a project to throw myself into.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Got the ideas, and so he said, we have a
new Brain and institute. We want to understand it's an initiative.
We want to understand this incredibly complex organ the most
complex thing in the universe, really, and so music is
one of the ways that we can do that. So
now they've funded since we started our project, which is
Sound Health with the NEA the Kennedy Center. I'm an
(15:48):
advisor there.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I know, and you did a nineteen part series. I
was watching some of them last night. I mean, that
was a huge commitment. I think you did it during
the pandemic. But you did a whole series of webinars
really on every aspect of music and the brain, which
I guess in some ways laid the framework for the book. Right.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Well, it certainly did, I mean, and Vivic Morti is
now our Surgeon General, has really become a champion for
this work. As well, and the NIH has spent thirty
million dollars funding music research. I mean, nobody would have
predicted that when I met him.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
This summer. Just in about a month is the major
symposium of the Brain Initiative, which NIH has been supporting
now for seven years, started by President Obama in the
way back then, and which has now hundreds and hundreds
of scientists working on it, people with expertise and neuroscience
but also in robotics and engineering and everything you could
(16:45):
think of. And there's going to be all symposium at
that meeting about music and how it's going to teach
us things about how the basic science of the brain works,
but also teach us how to be even more effective
in this non pharmacological of providing healing to people who
are suffering. And everybody kind of wants to see that
happen too, So we're getting the momentum. The will woo
(17:07):
reaction seems to be fading as people are more and
more like, oh, maybe there's something useful to here.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
When we come back. Renee illuminates the powerful connection between
music and memory, and I remember listening to Frank Sinatra
in my family's basement.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Thank everyone needs.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Someone to talk to and text with about life's challenges.
And while girlfriends are great listeners, there are limits to
your group chat. A Talkspace therapist will give you an
objective perspective and professional guidance. Register at talkspace dot com
to connect with the licensed therapist within days and you
can start messaging back and forth and also schedule live
(17:51):
video or audio sessions. Talkspace is in network with major
insurers and copays are usually twenty five dollars or less
no insurance. Now get eighty five dollars off of your
first month with promo code Katie when you go to
talkspace dot com slash Katiekuric. Match with a licensed therapist
(18:11):
at talkspace dot com slash Katie Curic. We're back with
Renee Fleming and doctor Francis Collins. Is a lot of
this about memory, so it's interesting. My friend Peter Sincottie,
I don't know if you know Peter. He's a great
(18:34):
jazz pianist and vocalist. And I told him that I
had a song that I thought he should perform and record,
and I'm going to play it for you because I
just love this song. I love the words I love
everything about it.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Here's to those who love not to wisely, No, not wisely,
but too well. To the girl who's song eyes with
envy when she hears that wedding bow. To the guy
who throw party if he knew someone to call. Here's
(19:13):
to the loser, bless.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Renee. I used to listen to that song in my basement.
My dad had an album Frank Sinatra. It was the
Capitol Records Years, and I absolutely love that song. So
when Peter sent that to me, I just had a
rush of memories. First of all, I loved the words,
I love the tune. I love everything about this song,
(19:40):
and it's kind of an obscure. I was going to
look up who wrote it, but Frank Sinatra recorded it
with the Nelson Riddle Orchestra, and I want It made
me wonder how much of our attraction and being swept
away and for us to be in a certain flow
has to do with memory and experiences.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Well, memory is incredibly powerful and very much connected to music.
So that's why, for instance, a couple of things. One
is that if you hear a song, you're taken back
to your wedding or your high school graduation or whatever.
Formative experiences you've had, and it's immediate, you know, and
the nervous system and also the brain. It's so much
(20:22):
about the brain. But basically, and you can switch, you
can go back, you can hear the next song and
it will take you to a different memory. So it's
really it's incredibly powerful. But what we're discovering for Alzheimer's patients,
which is something everyone is afraid of now talking all
over the country, and that's the leading I would say
subject around which people have anxiety. But memories are very
(20:47):
much connected to our experience. So that's one of them.
That's one of I would say the most powerful courses
of research right now.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Pain is another, So Francis, music can actually ease physical pain.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
I'll give you our own little personal example. Just ten
days ago, I was in the hospital after a major surgery.
I was having a pretty bad time in the postop phase,
and I really didn't want to indulge in a lot
of narcotics to try to handle the pain. So instead
I decided, Okay, I'm going to take my own medicine here.
(21:20):
Let's see if we can use music therapy to get
me through a tough couple of days. And after doing
a lot of listening to James Taylor and a lot
of Alison Krause.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I love Alison Krause.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Oh my god. Yes, And this one may seem odd
to you, but I'm also a fan of a really
wonderful pipe organ performance. So I pulled up a lot
on YouTube all the amazing pipe organ performances of bach
preludes and fugues being played on organ c in Europe
that are just amazing, and I got lost in all
(21:55):
of that and sort of the pain it was still there.
I knew it was there, but it wasn't near is intrusive.
I was kind of getting the benefit of this. Well,
that was a short term couple of days, but certainly
for people with chronic pain that doesn't go away. The
benefits also are becoming more and more clear. And NIH
has a big program right now investing in rigorous studies
(22:15):
of this to try to see what are the nuances
that lead to a better outcome, because again, right now
it's a little empirical, and maybe there's a way we
could be even more effective if we understood it.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
It's interesting because you know Dan Levitton, who does a
neuromapping really in the chapter that he writes for my
book talks exactly about where this all lives in the
brain and how it works and how it's tied together.
But the reason the NIH is studying music is because
music is in every known part of the mapped brain today,
(22:47):
and that's incredibly powerful. There are almost no other activities
that are that widespread in the brain. And part of
it is the complexity of engaging with music. You know,
it's hearing, it's rhythm, so it's you know, movement. Also,
it's memory, it's language because we're we're often thinking about
words to go with these things. You know, it's just
(23:09):
a very complex activity. And if you're making music, it's
triply so.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
And I know that when they mapped your brain singing renee,
it showed areas of your brain lighting up that don't
light up when you're speaking.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Right, correct. And what was surprise the scientists in my
fMRI study. I was in that machine for two hours,
my goodness, and you were singing away, yeah, singing away
like you know many you know, many repetitions. But what
surprised them was that imagining singing was more powerful than
the other two. Really, and speaking or singing, Wow, that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
So just thinking of songs, and does the thing go
for people who can't sing or who prefer listening over singing.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Maybe not. Maybe singing for them would be more more
kind of almost traumatic to have to sing in an
MRI machine, So that might have been more active, you know,
they said to They actually did sort of surmise that
because I'm a singer, it's a bit second nature, right right,
But while imagining, I had to tune out the noise
of the fMRI, of the MRI, I had to focus,
(24:20):
et cetera. So it was a little different.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
That's interesting. So, but the same benefits of singing again
for people who are not blessed with your amazing voice.
I mean, it doesn't keep me from singing just because
I can't sing like you, Renee. But what about people
who are just listening to music? Can you talk about
what that does to the brain.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Well, first of all, you're a pianist, so you are
a musician, which is so fabulous that you had that training.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Well it's more, you know what's really weird, Renee, is
I play by ear now and I play mostly like
Irving Berlin in the key of C because it's hard
for me to play implicated like Billy Joel songs with
a lot of flats or sharps. But while I took
piano for ten years, when I sit down, I just
(25:10):
sound out music that I like and just play it.
And that's I don't know. I'm the only one in
my family who can do that, and I was hoping
my daughters would be able to play by ear, but
they can't either. Where does that come from?
Speaker 2 (25:26):
First of all, I'm really jealous. You know. I had
the chance to take jazz harmony from a jazz musician
in graduate school, and I in exchange for voice lessons,
and I wish I had done it, because to be
able to play by ear. First of all, that's the
most relaxing thing you can do, I know, because it's
improvisation and you have to shut off the part of
(25:46):
your frontal lobe which judges you have to that has
to turn off for you to be able to do that,
which has got to be great for your health. And
so listening to music, what's fascinating about it is it's
been shown to be incredible beneficial for anxiety, for depression,
for pain. So it's really beneficial to listen to music,
(26:07):
and especially we do it anyway. We use playlists for
exercise or cooking or you know, walking.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
So, but what is it renee that is there a
particular place in your brain it impacts, like for pain,
does it light up a part of your brain? And
then it sort of overcomes the part of your brain
that is having to deal with pain, Like how does
it work?
Speaker 2 (26:33):
So it can be a distraction. It's releasing chemicals into
your brain and doorphins and these are feel good chemicals.
So it's it's it's incredibly helpful for our health to
do this, especially especially today today's stressors. This year is
going to be rough. We know that. So I've I've
actually become a poster child for neural arts and I'm
(26:54):
doing artistic things every day that I enjoy and getting
away from the news, very upsetting opinion news. I'm really
just not doing it this year. Yeah, so it's helping me,
but I can't tell you how much happier I am.
So and listening to music is one of those things.
So it's really about the release of chemicals in your
(27:14):
brain that makes this work. And then they also talk
about the fact that one of the things I don't
know if you ever you know, if you hurt yourself,
if you cut yourself and then you bump your knee, yeah,
the initial pain goes away because you're now distracted by
the new pain.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
So right, Well, whenever I'm getting a shot or like botox, yeah,
once in a while, I will pinch my hand really
really hard, so I'm focused on the pain in my
hand instead of the pain in my forehead. Confessions here
on next question with Katie Couric.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Exactly, and also, you know, frankly, listening to music can
also work the same way. It is a distraction, but
more than that, it does something really positive.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
You mentioned patients with Alzheimer's, and you and I have
talked about this as well. There was a documentary a
few years back. I wonder if it's available. I interviewed
the people behind it, and then there was like some
breaking news story so it never aired and they were crestfallen,
so I know. And it's called Alive Inside, and it
(28:22):
was about people giving elderly folks and nursing homes. I
guess at the time maybe iPods and earphones or whatever,
and how their personas completely changed when they heard music
that they knew and recognized and loved.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
It. Can't get away from me if I'm in this place.
It takes food to my school. They Oh god, beautiful.
Does it make you happy to sing for us? That's
the memory piece Stan Cohen's film, It's Beautiful. It's on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Is it okay? I highly recommend Alive Inside Everybody because
it's pretty extraordinary. And I learned so much from your book,
and I thought we could just talk about a few
of the points quickly. You write that hearing is I
knew this, by the way, when my dad was in
hospice and he was dying, and I was very, very
close to my dad. He was just an amazing person.
(29:27):
I brought a little speaker to the hospital room and
my phone and I played all his favorite songs. When
I used to play the piano, he'd yell down to
the basement, Katie, play as Time goes by, or I'll
be seeing you. And so I played all of these
wonderful songs that I knew he loved because I had
(29:49):
always heard that hearing was the last to go. But
tell me about why we haven't done more research on that.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Well, it's been hard to do the research on anything artistic.
So it's the brain imaging and it's the fact that
technology has really expanded that's allowing us now to see
all of this. So it's new. It's basically relatively new
because but technology makes it possible. So what's interesting about
that is my husband's aunt at the end of her
(30:21):
life didn't know anyone around her, didn't speak. I was there,
I saw this, But if you said I'm looking, she
would finish the whole song over for leave Clover exactly.
She would finish the song with words absolutely perfect. And
there are five or six songs that she would do
(30:41):
and I just sort of thought, this is actually joyful,
and you know, these were pieces from her childhood. But
she didn't open her eyes and she didn't know anyone.
So it is the last memory to go. Music memory,
and that's why researchers are using it to try and
extend that that moment of a liveness that you see
(31:03):
in the film. I mean, look at the Henry segments.
They're really powerful.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Francis. What music can do for these patients is really remarkable.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
You know, on some of the more dramatic examples that
I have seen in terms of how music can help
in that situation where people who have had strokes that
affect the speech area of the brains, all called Broca's area.
Most people are locked in in a terribly frustrating way.
They know what they want to say, but they cannot
make the words come out. They can understand what people
(31:34):
are saying to them, but they can't interact backwards. But
guess what if you ask them to sing of the
Happy Birthday song, they can do it, And once they
realize they can do it, then you can start to
retrain their communication ability by singing it instead of singing it.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yeah, and that's also something important for people to know
that even talking to someone you may not think is
there is really important at the end of someone's life.
Did you know early humans sang before they spoke? Renee
explains right after this. If you want to get smarter
(32:18):
every morning with a breakdown of the news and fascinating
takes on health and wellness and pop culture, sign up
for our daily newsletter, Wake Up Call by going to
Katiecuric dot com. Now more from Renee and Francis. You
(32:39):
mentioned that you sang before you spoke, but that's really
true of our species, that a lot of humans sang
before they spoke. Can you explain that to.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Me, well, we don't, you know, we can't know what happened. Then,
you know, researchers are looking at animals now and birds
and dogs and horses and to kind of try and
piece together what our evolution was artistically. But it makes
kind of a lot of sense that in order to survive, humans,
(33:10):
you know, could make vocal sounds that would be like
the animals they were hunting, so birds or whatever creatures
they were, and then eventually speech didn't develop until much
much later.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh how interesting.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, So you know, it's just it's really fascinating when
you think about that. In fact, there's a language I
just learned. I just came back from India and there's
a language there that they couldn't really decipher. It's done
enchanting by these by monks. And finally realized they said,
we believe that these songs predate speech. Wow, so people
(33:45):
are still singing them. It's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
That is interesting. You also point out that women suffering
from postpartum depression can benefit from singing an acchoir. Help
me understand that, Renee.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
So, you know, it surprised me. This is relatively new research.
But the World Health Organization is beginning to have tremendous
success by taking some of these findings to countries where
they are in a better position than we are to
kind of embed them in healthcare right away. So, but
it works. Singing an acquir somehow really improves the level
(34:19):
of depression, the level of difficulty that women with postpartum
depression are having, and singing an acquire has a lot
of benefits in They just did a study that compared
singing an acchoir was singing alone and singing an acquire
had better health outcomes.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Well, you can understand why, right, I mean, you have
a sense of community, you have kind of working literally
in harmony with others and feeling something greater than yourself.
I mean it makes total sense.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Right, totally, And and it strengthens immunity too. They found
but our brain waves align when we're in a shared
artistic experience, and that's meaningful, that's powerful, and that's definitely evolution.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
And that's also a huge argument to keep performing arts
programs in schools across the country right especially at a
time when young people are experiencing unprecedented anxiety and depression
and stress. I think maybe educators will understand how important
the arts are to your overall educational experience, right.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Absolutely, the art should stay in schools for a couple
of reasons. One is that it's good for you. It
helps kids with identity, with figuring out who they are.
They can be more creative as a result. But one
of the main purposes is truancy is becoming a tremendous problem,
especially in urban centers around the country, and an artistic
(35:49):
pursuit can keep kids in school, so that's major. One
of the things I would really like to see happen
is for creative arts therapists to be embedded in schools
to help with pro social behaviors and the kinds of
things we're talking about, but also to kind of give
morale to everybody, and they can work alongside arts educators too.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
You talk about your hope for reimagining performing arts venues
in order to serve the public in a very different
way too outside of schools. What is your vision for
that renee.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Well, there was a study done by Opera America that
interested me because it said that what people want is
to be together with their friends and families. That's why
they go to performances. They want to be seated and
the round. They want to be able to order drinks,
and so let's make it social, but let's make it
also a place where we exchange ideas together. So in
(36:43):
a way, I could envision performing arts centers becoming community centers.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
That would be wonderful, and I think we need it
more than ever. I think everyone's looking for experiences, right,
and sort of these experiential opera tunities, I think, certainly
after the pandemic, when you're all together with people sharing something.
And honestly, I think part of the problem with polarization
(37:10):
in this country, Renee, is that we all are in
our little silos, and this whole feeling of even the
nation or a big section of the population seeing something
at once at the same time and enjoying it has
become few and far between. I think that's why sports
(37:31):
are so popular, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
I mean sports definitely does that, and performing arts can
do it as well. But this loneliness and isolation are
at an all time high, and it's a worldwide problem.
Doctor Ted Drosid the World Health Organization told me he's
incredibly concerned because depression is up thirty percent in the
world and part of it is this isolation. So I
(37:55):
you know, the people in the US are not going
to performances as much as they did be for the
pandemic for a number of reasons.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
And they're not going to church in places like that
where you have that sense of community either and music,
by the way.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
Well, and I would tell them this is not good
for your health. You folks have to get out, get
out and be with other people. So science and tells
us now that it's really important we are social creatures.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
It's interesting. I tried to pitch a documentary in twenty
eighteen prior to the pandemic, and I've interviewed Vivek Murphy
many times and nobody was interested. But now maybe with
these huge numbers, people might reconsider they thought it was
too much of a downer. I'm like, okay, whatever. Anyway,
let's go back to your book, Renee, because I just
(38:41):
want to finish up by asking you how you were
able to assemble such an incredible group of artists and scientists.
It includes essays written by everyone from Yo Yo Ma
to architect Liz Diller to scientists from MIT and Johns Hopkins.
How did you in the world, Renee, by the way,
(39:02):
with your day job? How did you assemble all these
experts and say, can you contribute to this book.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Well, I was trying to show the breadth of the
field as it currently exists and talk about the future
the pillars. Also, childhood development is a major pillar, and
I just asked, you know, I just asked repeatedly. It
took a long time to pull this together. And it's
a good reference also for people who kind of just
want to maybe they want to just go to one
(39:30):
specific section, but there are chapters that make people cry.
They're very surprised. There were two young men who saw
a need in their communities and they created initiatives that
are booming now, one in Philadelphia and one in New
York City. There's Roseanne Cash's chapter kills Me. I mean
what she went through with a wrongly diagnosed brain disorder
(39:52):
called kiari one and she and her recovery from that
as a musician. It's heroing. And you have you know,
Esperanza Spaulding and Rhianna Giittons and really interesting artists, writers
Richard Powers and and patch it so's I wanted it
to really be expansive.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Well, it's incredible what you've put together, Renee, And I'm
just so I mean, I'm not in a position to
be proud of you, but I'm so impressed by your
commitment to something because you know, obviously you want to
contribute more to the world than just your beautiful singing
voice and your artistic prowess, and you know it's time consuming.
(40:35):
How were you able to do it and to really
really spend so much time? You're clearly intellectually curious.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
So yes, yes, well, you know, I have wonderful Chasin
and Paul in my office, and I couldn't have done
it without Jason because he was the nuts and bolts,
gathering everything. What I didn't know about writing this book
because I had already written a book called The Inner Voice.
Was that an anthology? All the way falls to us
to me, So I really had to have help, no question.
(41:04):
But we did get it done, and I think it's beautiful.
I would also point to my friend's book Your Brain
on Art that was a bestseller last year for people
who like a broader kind of artistic experience. The neuroscience
book is fascinating and I'm working closely with them. Anyway,
I just announced we're about to announce scholars so I'm
(41:26):
funding now put your money where your mouth is right.
Grants for young scientists who partner with an artist.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
That is awesome.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
They're amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Well, wow, that's exciting. Well, you've given so much to
the world. It was so wonderful to see you as
a Kennedy Center honoree. So well deserved, and I know
that that was such a thrill. I wasn't there, but
I got to watch it, and what an incredible experience.
And I can't think of anyone more deserving. The book
(41:57):
that you've got out now is called Music Harnessing the
Arts for Health and Wellness. Renee, so great to see you.
Thank you so much for talking to me about all
your important work, because I think it's going to solve
a lot of problems if people actually implement some of
the ideas that are put forth in this book.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Thank you, Katie. I really appreciate your time and attention
to this. Thank you. I believe you and I agree.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,
a subject you want us to cover, or you want
to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,
reach out. You can leave a short message at six
oh nine five point two five to five oh five,
or you can send me a DM on Instagram. I
would love to hear from you. Next Question is a
(42:51):
production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers
are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervisor producer
is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and
Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music. For more
information about today's episode, or to sign up for my
(43:13):
newsletter wake Up Call, go to the description in the
podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You
can also find me on Instagram and all my social
media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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(43:37):
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