September 17, 2025 • 45 mins
What is therapy exactly, and what is it supposed to do? How do you know if you need therapy? If you’re in therapy, how do you know if it’s working? NO SUCH THING talks to Lilly Kaplan, therapist and author of the Reality Test newsletter, who gracefully demystifies the practice of therapy for us and answers a barrage of questions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Anny, and this is no such thing. The show
where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually
doing the research. On today's episode, we're gonna find out
if you, dear listener need therapy.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
No, there's no no such thing. No touch thank no touch, thank.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Touch, thank.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Touch, thank.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
So.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I got the idea for this episode after an interaction
I had with a friend, and this this friend. When
you hear this, I'm sorry for using our interaction as
fodder for a podcast content, but he's kind of like
a you know, he leans broie, masculine guy from the Midwest.
(00:56):
And I was texting him to see, like when we
should hang out. There's a game on and we were
gonna go watch the game, and then he was like, yeah,
I can. I can get there at eight, Mike, because
my therapy raps at seven. Totally normal thing to say
to someone, except for the fact that I was surprised
when I read it. I was like, I was surprised
(01:16):
that someone like him was doing therapy, not just that
he was in therapy, but also that he would be
open about it and tell me that I'm in therapy.
I'm not just like yeah, no, no, I was surprised
that someone like him would be transparent about that because he,
to me, I think, struck me as someone who like
wouldn't want to either admit or and it made me think, like,
(01:40):
because I'm from the Midwest, I'm from a red state,
like I we grew up thinking about therapy as like,
you know, you really only should do that if you
have some real problem, or like not thinking it was
necessarily like feminine, but like something that was just kind
of woo woo. I guess and you, Devin, this is
kind of exactly what I mean. When when we would
(02:02):
hang out and you would say, hell, I'll be there
after therapy, that didn't surprise me at all coming from
I was like, Okay.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
I'e man, you're.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
You're just a bit You're more curious as you're able
to hang out.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
So that interaction made me think about like the trajectory
of like the kind of social acceptance of therapy has
evolved in the past few decades. And maybe I'm underestimating
my fellow Americans, but I but I think probably most
people still don't do therapy or don't understand what it
(02:40):
is exactly. And so I thought we could use our
powers to kind of educate and and you know, like
I think an episode about like what it what it
is exactly, I think could be really helpful because personally,
I think it's a super useful tool.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
You know, here's Many's disclaimer from his earlier statement and.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Are you deep? Are you in therapy? Yeah? Ok, yeah,
yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
And there's like moments in my life where I have
been and I and then I would stop and then
start up again. And there's like a lot of layers
to you know, how it can be useful maybe how
in some instance it's not useful. But I want to
ask you guys, like your experience with therapy, but also
like where you see the public kind of consensus about
(03:30):
therapy is.
Speaker 5 (03:31):
Yeah, So I've been in therapy now going on five years.
I started during COVID. I've been thinking about doing it beforehand,
but I always just made some short of excuse just
to like why not to do it? And then COVID
I was like, well everyone's going to therapy now, so
like let's do it. Me deciding to go to therapy
to your point, it was like a like it wasn't
(03:55):
a big deal, but it also was a big deal, right,
Like it's like, I don't know anyone in my family
who's gone to therapy and like talked about it outside
of like you've got to go, you know, like maybe
mandatory or like there's an issue here in back of
my mind. It was like, do I actually need this?
You know, like is this something I think like actually
(04:15):
should be doing, Like it's not exactly cheap and is
this sort of like a waste of time and it's
not you know, I'm still doing it, And it felt
like a good way to sort of also force me,
as someone who doesn't like talking about their feelings, to
(04:36):
like have to at a certain time every week have
a dedicated time to talk about my feelings and to
think about what the hell my feelings are. Cause pre therapy,
I would just ignore how I felt, not ignore, but
just like push through how I felt about a lot
of things and like never come back to it because
(04:57):
I'm just like, well, if I just like feel some
want normal or whatever, like, then I'm fine.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
You know.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
Like to me before progress was like, do I feel sad?
And you can also not feel sad by not thinking
about the thing?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
But it's also I feel like it's a generational thing, right,
I feel like our generation like no one Batton Island,
you say, like you're gone to therapy.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
It took me a while to tell my mom that
I was doing it.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Why.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
I was worried that she was going to be like, oh,
what's wrong with you? Yeah, you know, like that sort
of like are you good?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
And I feel like growing up there's like pop culture
representations of therapy that make you feel like that.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
It's like if I'm getting therapy, that means something's wrong
with me.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
My constant hesitation going into it was like, oh, people
go to their well, you know, this is like the
pop culture thought of it. People go to therapy or suicidal, right, yeah? Yeah,
and if I go to therapy, pe who can think
I'm suicidal. I have a lot of issues, that's not
one of them. So yeah, and now that was part
of my thing, you too, to tell them. I like,
(06:02):
I ended up telling my mom after my dad died.
I was just sort of like we were talking about
coping mechanisms. When I was like, whoa, I've been going
for like three years. You don't know this, but I've
been going to therapy, and it was like, you know,
for me, it was helpful to have that too, because
it was like, Okay, I've been doing the work with
a therapist and then a big thing happened in my
(06:23):
life and then have to like he already knew the
context of like my relationship with my dad and like
all these sort of things. And it was like a
person I could talk to that also was not grieving
at the time. Right, Like you think about a lot
of stuff you try to to refrain of, like you
should just talk to your family or friends. It's like
sometimes they're going through that stuff with you, right, And
it's like, you know, I don't think I think we
(06:45):
think that we're a burden to people more so than
we are. But I think at times there can be
things on my mind that feel like a burden. If
I were to talk to a normal person about it
feels like a burden. But obviously I'm paying my therapist,
so he has to listen.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
To me talk about it.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
This is why you're there, Yeah, exactly what about you know,
have you ever had gone to therapy or I have not.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Not once. I'm not even once.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, I'm supportive of my brothers and sisters, but now
I just haven't done it. And you know, there have
been times when you know, it's quite popular. It seems
they're growing in steam and like the stigma's going away,
Like we're discussing where it's like, oh, maybe you know,
I could probably stand to gain something from this, even
just having that hour or whatever to reflect on my
(07:37):
thoughts or feelings in a way that I don't necessarily
do in my day to day. So I see the
benefits of it, or you know why I think would
be the benefits.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
But yeah, I've just never had anything.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
I've never pushed to do it myself for whatever reason.
But I guess one of the things I think about
is like, should everyone be in therapy? Sometimes I feel
like people might use therapy like ideas that spread online.
Some people use kind of language from therapy yes, as
what I view as kind of excuses or crutches yes,
(08:12):
to almost self isolate instead of making it easier to
actually connect with other people. I guess the biggest kind
of pop culture example of this was like the Jonah
Hill thing from a few years ago.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Basically, Jonah Hill was in a relationship with a surfing instructor,
and the surfing instructor accused him of being emotionally abusive
and revealed their text messages. And in the text messages,
it's clear that Jonah Hill is kind of weaponizing language
that you might hear in therapy just to kind of
(08:49):
mask his own insecurities. The specific word in question is boundaries.
He was saying that she was kind of violating his
boundaries whenever she would, you know, surf with men even
though she is a surfing instructor, and when she would
post pictures of herself in a bikini.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Now, this incident kind.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Of set off waves of conversations and discourse online about
when therapy speak is useful or when people are abusing it.
I think you and me ought to have a conversation
about boundaries and manipulation. It's not enough for a man
to simply go to therapy.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
When a person who doesn't want to change their own
behavior as goes to therapy, they can learn language to
weaponize in order to justify their bad behavior. Some people
were being like, what's wrong with this, he's just setting boundaries,
or what's wrong with this? He wants a more traditional relationship.
And let me tell you, I think what we ideally
want in life is to have our partners be equals,
(09:50):
and we also need to be responsible for our own
emotional datage.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
I think the first time I therapy actually was it
like right when I moved to New York and Business
Insider actually had some kind of a thing with your
health insurance where like you could go do a couple
sessions for free.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, so I was like great, And then.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I think what it helps me do is like understand
why I do or think the way I do sometimes
in certain instances. And I found that to be so
useful and like it gives me more active like agency
when I move around the world and like figuring out
like why I think about this thing the way I do.
But yeah, of course there are like other examples of
(10:36):
people getting therapy where it like it could skew.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
Because I think the big thing with therapy, and you know,
we'll get into this I guess later, is like at
least the way I see it is like therapy gives
you the tools to work on yourself to like be
a better person. Yeah, but you also have to work
at it. It's not a sort of like if you
just show up for an hour and then do nothing
in between, that's not really helping you, right, It's like
(11:00):
you have to like to your point, like all right,
I know this is the way my mind works, so like
when I'm in certain situations, like I need to keep
that in mind, and like maybe operates like differently. Like
for me, therapy forces myself to be in more uncomfortable situations,
right where I'll talk about things that like I usually
I would avoid and like, all right, maybe I should
confront this person about this thing or like have that
conversation that like in the past I would just like
(11:23):
let go by. But I think there's two things I play.
I think people use it as an excuse because they
don't want to do to work, so they'll just use
the language and then never actually do any of the
work and then just like be terrible to other people.
And then I think they're you know, like therapists are
also people. Yeah, and there's you know, like it's like cops.
It's like there's good, there's good.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
There's good.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Therapists are like cops, but there's.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Good therapist that they're bad therapists. You know, my friend
was telling me the other day, shit, too crazy therapists.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Okay, one therapist is falling asleep during your sessions.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Damn crazy like a phone.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
It's a phone, it's not a it's not video, not video,
it's on the phone. And she hears the therapist snoring
multiple multiple that's crazy. And then this other therapist, there's
this this friend I was talking to is sober. She
(12:23):
was complaining to the therapist about it's hard to date
in New York because you know, a lot of dating
in New York is around drinking, and the therapists told
them maybe you should take up drinks.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
There's no fucking.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
That's as a therapist, right.
Speaker 5 (12:37):
So I think that's also to you is that like, hey,
they're bad doctors, that there are bad versions of everything, right,
So like some people maybe they are doing the work
that they're horrible therapist to tell them to do.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
You know, I feel like people do also sometimes just
want a therapist that just validates them. So they'll just
go to complain about their friend or family or whatever
and just want the therapist to be like, you know what, you're.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Right, They want to chat.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
And then then then if they get pushed back from
the therapist, or not even pushback, but just like maybe
offering a different perspective, that'll be like I need a
new therapist.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not comfortable.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Wow, challenging, I'm unsafe right now?
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
So well, guys.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Luckily for us, we have an expert sitting right over there.
Oh wow, who can kind of walk us through this,
because I think one of my goals for this episode
is to kind of demystify what therapy is and what
it can do for you. And so after the break,
we're gonna be talking to Lily Kaplan. She's a therapist
(13:39):
and she's also the author of the Reality Test newsletter
on sub sac. We're gonna be asking Lily a lot
of questions about what therapy is and what therapy isn't.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Hey, folks, many here.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Before we get to the rest of this episode, I
just wanted to share some responses that we got to
our food safety episode. When it comes to the bowl
designated for vomiting that some households utilized, we ran a
small pole and apparently fifty six percent of our listeners
did have this dedicated sick bowl growing up. Couldn't be me,
(14:26):
but that's fascinating. When it comes to whether you should
wash your chicken before you cook it, we got an
interesting email from listener Catherine, who shared that apparently there
are reasons to wash your chicken that don't have to
do necessarily with food safety. Apparently, in some Middle Eastern cultures,
people say that they can smell something called zonka, which
(14:49):
is kind of a indescribable, rotting, rancid smell that can
show up on your dishes after cooking the chicken. And
washing your chicken before where you cook it supposedly prevents
this smell. I looked into it a little bit, and
it's really fascinating that there's a kind.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Of cultural divide here.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
A lot of people in Middle Eastern cultures say that
they can smell the smell, a lot of people in
Western cultures say that they can't. But we love hearing
from you guys, so definitely please keep emailing us at
Manny Noah Devin at gmail dot com. Enjoy the rest
of the episode. Hi Lily, Hi Manny, Thanks for doing this. Yeah,
(15:31):
welcome to the show. In this episode, my goal is
to kind of demystify what therapy is, because I have
this theory that most people don't know what it is
and I could be wrong, but I don't think I am,
because I think I'm usually right about things. I'm right often.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Did you learn that in therapy.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah, yeah, my therapist.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
These guys always right, Like whoa you neither remember this? Mane,
You're always right.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Okay, So first of all, what kind of therapy do
you do?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I do talk therapy sort of follows in a psychodynamic practice,
which is essentially about how your past impacts your present.
That's kind of like the most crude, oversimplified answer, and relational,
which is like centering human relationships, using the relationship between
(16:25):
the therapists and the client as like a model of what
relationships can be.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
I incorporate some other stuff too, some like somatic like
mind body kind of stuff, some mindfulness kind of stuff.
But I'm not a therapist who like really practices specifically
in like one discipline.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Okay, So I think the first most obvious question I
have to start out is like, what is the function
of therapy? What is it supposed to do? And what
effect is it supposed to have on someone?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Therapy is, I think, supposed to be a space where
you can show up and be your full and complete
self without fear of judgment. People go for different reasons.
Some people go because they're experiencing like some kind of
acute symptom like I can't sleep, or like I can't
(17:23):
stop drinking, and I need to resolve that specific thing.
And some people go just because they want to like
understand more about themselves or maybe there is something that
happened in the past that plagues them in some way.
What it's supposed to do provide insight, reduce symptoms, improve
(17:46):
your capacity to be in relationships, improve your capacity to
just be present with yourself. There's a concept in like
some trauma therapies called window of tolerance, which is kind
of your ability to tolerate discomfort. If you think of
it as like a circle. Some people's circle is very
(18:08):
small for whatever reason, and if you, like something happens
that's uncomfortable that like pushes you outside of that window
or outside of that circle, then it's just like total
shut down or fight or flight or dysregulation in some way.
So ideally good therapy can like whiten that circle a
(18:29):
little bit, or like help you come face to face
with some uncomfortable things and be able to tolerate them.
It's definitely not supposed to remove all pain from the world.
It's definitely not supposed to make you not ever feel sad.
Or not ever feel anxious, but rather to trust a
little bit that sadness will peak and then it might
(18:52):
fall again.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Are there people whose windows are arguably too big? But
maybe someone who's who lets things roll off them in
a way and they're not even contending with their discomfort.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I don't know, it sounds like.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
You might be talking about avoidance.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Maybe I'm not talking about myself, By the way, mine
does average. You know, It's like I have an average
size trust. So my next question, I think, would be,
I guess what are some signs that the therapy is
quote unquote working, Like how do you know if it's
having a positive impact in one's life or in your
(19:30):
patient's lives?
Speaker 3 (19:32):
They're lifestyle factors. Are you sleeping? Are you eating? Are
you engaged in healthy relationships? How is your self esteem?
How's your kind of self talk? Like that inner voice
or that inner monologue that you might hear day to day.
(19:55):
Is it pretty mean or is it pretty nice? Or
is it sort of like healthy ish mix of both?
And in the room, do you feel like you can
share things with your therapist without the fear of them
judging you or being shocked or making you feel bad,
(20:18):
Like do you feel like you can show up to
therapy with whatever you have that day. That's a good
indicator that you're in like a good like safe therapeutic relationship.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Yeah. I've heard people say that they lighted at therapists.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Really yeah, well what's an example, do you know? I
think or just like not saying not giving details.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
Oh, mission is obviously a great way of lying. Yeah,
but I think some people even in it one.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Of the top favorite top three.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
But I think people, you know, they show up to
therapy and they're still presenting. Okay, I want to present
the best version of my health to this therapist, So
I'm not going to tell them that actually I did X, Y,
and Z.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
And I think sometimes I says, just don't feel comfortable.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
Yeah, you Like, I think somethings people feel are even
like I've I've talked to someone who they told their
therapist something they were going through in a.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Therapist, well, oh my god.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
And like if your therapist has that sort of reaction
to you, like something that you're like, oh, this is
just my life. Yeah, like, maybe you're not gonna feel
as comfortable telling them certain things.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I've been watching The West Wing for the first time
and there's an episode this is kind of a spoiler.
I guess it's like probably twenty years old. I wouldn't
want to spoil if you haven't watched The West Wing
Skip forward. I guess in the middle of season two,
they bring in this like trauma guy and he's like
(21:48):
really serious and like, of course he's a guy.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Can I curse?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Absolutely, He's like, stop fucking around with me, Josh. The
actually doesn't even say that on the show. It's like
a network can add a cursory to if I wrote it,
this is no. But he's like he's so mean to him.
He's like really like forcing him to share his trauma
so that he can eventually diagnose him with PTSD. Anyway,
(22:12):
it was like a really painful episode to watch and
really funny because you just really don't want to be
like super mean to someone who's like just experienced potentially
life ending event.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I feel like what Devin's described with the pop culture
depictions of therapy is like so many people's only experience
with it, and I feel like, yeah, I'm curious, like
what are some other kind of misconceptions you've noticed in
movies or TV? Like I remember you know, obviously one
of the biggest shows of all time, The Sopranos is
like mostly about his relationship with a therapist.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Dys Therapy is a jerk off. You know it, and
I know it. I actually don't know it, but please continue.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
But I'm curious, like, how do you feel about the general,
you know, depiction of therapy and movies and TV.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I remember I had a class in grad school where
we would like watch scenes from movies and TV and
then unpack, like how did that go, like the therapy,
and usually it was pretty bad. I think that sometimes
people think that therapy is advice.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
It's for sure not.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
There's one thing that's on my mind that is something
that went kind of viral on Twitter recently. I don't
know if you guys saw this. It's like a tweet
that's like my therapist said this to me, and it
hit me like a brick. Have you seen this?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I think?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
So, Yeah, those who need from you do not respect you.
You must separate yourself from those who do not whatever.
I don't know, it's like fucking bullshit.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
I think therapy is really hard to depict in movies
and TV because it's really not something that can be
summed up in a quote or an seen it's it's complicated.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, they I feel like the conception that therapy is
advice is so prevalent. I feel like I hear that
all the time, where friends of mine, you know, will
be like, I need my therapist to like tell me
what to do in life, like tell me that I
should do. Like they'll go and be like, here are
two options, which one should I do?
Speaker 4 (24:28):
That's a life coach?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, yeah, you need Tony Robbins.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Or we're gonna talk about life coaches. Is that on
the list today?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (24:37):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
I'm cious about your thoughts online. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Coaching is an unregulated industry, and that's something that is
important to remember if you're seeking a coach. And that
doesn't mean that all coaches are bad. And I myself
have had a wonderful experience with a career coach, like
several years ago before I became a therapist and look
(25:07):
at me now media circuit. But their coaching is also.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Something that you can just say that you do, mmm,
like I could be a coach, you could be life coaches.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
You need any coach me what should I do?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Our clients would be in jail. Yeah, I'm curious about
you said earlier that like therapy, therapists are people. I'm curious, like,
(25:52):
could you talk a little bit more about that. I
feel like people do go into sessions thinking that there's
kind of I don't know, a machine and that's like
supposed to help you do something.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Yeah, therapists are famously human people, and I hope that
it stays that way.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
That.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah, yeah, I mean anything that can happen in a
human relationship can happen in your relationship with your therapist.
What's cool about therapy is that then you can talk
about it. You can be like, hey, I'm having kind
of weird, like romantic feelings towards you. And sometimes there's
a process that in the biz we call transference where
(26:33):
like a client, you might experience like a feeling that
you may have like somewhere else in your life and
like kind of imprint it onto the therapist. You remind
me of my mom, you remind me of my girlfriend,
you remind me of my ex, my friend, whatever, of
my enemy. But yeah, therapists can make mistakes, not me,
(26:54):
of course, but the other ones. They really shouldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah, there are.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
But like sometimes, like you know, I have offended people.
I say sorry, we talk about what happened. This is
part of also the sort of the therapeutic relationship as
a model, like a model of rupture and repair. Right,
Like my client might come back and say, hey, you
said this thing to me last week and it didn't
really sit well with me, and I'm so stoked, and
(27:27):
that happens because I'm like cool, like, let's talk about it.
How did it make you feel? Was this something that
was kind of out of line on my part?
Speaker 4 (27:35):
Is there like.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Something that we should talk about in our relationship, or
is there like something else going on that also came
in and we get to unpack that stuff and you
don't necessarily get to do that with your friends or family.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
The notion that therapists are people is obvious, but also
struck me because I was like, like, my therapist laughs
at my joke sometimes, but for whatever reason, they're not
going back to therapy next week, Like you didn't laugh
at that joke.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Well, they're not like knock knock jokes.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
But I'll say something funny. I'll say something that I'll
obviously you're kind of supposed to chuckle or laugh and
then when it happens, I'm like, oh that.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
Some course my therapist will laugh when I'm not on
the joke and be like, oh, I'm laughing, and then
explain why he's like, oh, because that reminded me of
this other thing that you've said, or like that situation
is interesting because it reminds me.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, yeah, to.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Be able to your point, Yeah, it is.
Speaker 5 (28:32):
At times I'm like, oh, yeah, you are, like you
can have reactions.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yeah, I think this is This is a good misconception
of therapy that people expect to sort of tabula rossa
write the blank sleep Freudian therapist who betrays nothing and
is an identityless person, which also comes from some baby
old fashioned ways of thinking that there is an identity
(29:00):
this person aka like a middle aged white man as
a default person. But yeah, no, I for sure have
a personality in sessions. I can't not Sometimes I will
make a face and my client will be like, what
was that face? I don't know if that's a great.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Thing that I do, but I can't help but be
very so.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
I've heard this, Yeah, yeah, I've received this feedback.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Makes sense.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Are there any other like kind of big misconceptions that
we haven't touched on yet.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
That's a good question. Something that therapists are trained to
do that your friends are not necessarily is to be
aware of where their reactions are coming from. Like it's
interesting like you mentioned your therapist like laughed at something
and was like, oh, I laughed because of I wonder
if he hadn't shared that, if you might have been
(29:54):
like if you might have walked away thinking like why
did he laugh? Like was he laughing at me? But
but for me, say I'm working with someone who reminds
me of a friend and they got back together with
an ex that we know has hurt them in the past,
and I might immediately have the reaction. I might feel
(30:17):
protective and I feel like, oh my god, no, what are
you thinking. What I am trained to do as a
therapist rather than that person's friend is notice my own
shit coming into the room and be like, Okay, why.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Am I reacting in this way?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
It is deeply not my place to judge. It's not
my place to say that this is wrong. It's not
appropriate to be like shocked, like oh my god.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
What you did?
Speaker 4 (30:47):
What?
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Yeah, there's a concept called unconditional positive regard that's like
a best practice in therapy, it means that we ought
to see our clients as inherently valuable people. It is
not our place to judge. It's not our place to
(31:09):
decide that, oh, you did this thing, therefore I think
less of you. It doesn't mean validation in any circumstance.
It definitely does mean that. But it does mean that
you are a full and worthy person no matter what, absolutely,
no matter what.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Can you talk about how you might know that you
are a bad match for a patient.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Yes, not every therapist is for every client. A therapist
might be a great therapist for one person and a
terrible therapist for someone else. For me, if I am
sitting with a client who makes me feel like really
emotionally activated in some way constantly in a way that
I feel like I cannot regulate myself or like I
(32:00):
can't have unconditional positive regard towards this client, I should
not be working with this person. Also, if they have
some kind of diagnosis that I'm just like not familiar
with and don't have the time or resources to get
trained on. If they need some kind of like specialized
support that is not a specialization that I have. That's
something that I you know, I need to be honest
(32:24):
and responsible and tell that person that I'm not the
therapist for them. If they can only meet on weekends,
then I also can't meet them.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Logistics.
Speaker 5 (32:34):
Yeah, taking that same question from the patient seeking a
therapist's point of view? All right, so we got okay,
you know, making sure your therapist doesn't have crazy reactions
to the things that you're telling them, making sure that
there may be a line with certain diagnosis that you have.
Is there any other tips you would give for someone
seeking a therapist, like we were talking about earlier, Like
(32:54):
not just seeking someone who's just going to agree with
you no matter what. Right like your therapists, you may
be a bit uncomfortable at times in therapy.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
That's okay, I'm assuming.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
Are there things, yeah, like that that people should be
considering when choosing a therapist if they're trying to figure
out if their therapist is the right fit for them.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Definitely, you will and must be uncomfortable at times in therapy.
There's some evidence that the quality of the relationship that
you have with your therapist is more important than the
kind of therapy that they're doing, like the model of
therapy that they're doing, Like Ultimately, feeling safe and supported
(33:37):
in that relationship is like basically the number one indicator
that you will get what you're looking for out of
therapy or get closer to where you want to go
finding a good therapist. It's a little like dating. You
might have a bunch of consultations that are usually free,
(34:02):
should be free. You know, you probably know after a
few sessions if you feel like this is someone that
you can kind of sit with or not. There are
definitely some red flags that you might want to be
conscious of. If the therapist says or does something that
makes you uncomfortable and maybe you bring it up and
(34:24):
they don't respond in a way that feels open to feedback,
then that's probably a problem. Ethical professional boundaries are really
really important, and I've heard some wild stories giving some
like weird advice treating your clients like friends. I've heard
(34:50):
a lot of stories of therapists who will kind of
bring their own emotions into session in a way that
feels inappropriate or like taking the client's time like oh,
like sorry, I'm just so sad because of blah blah
blah blah blah. That is kind of red floggy, that
shouldn't really happen. Yeah, right, And like the difference you're
(35:16):
talking about, like the difference between seeing a therapist or
talking to like a friend or a family member is
that you should never worry in the therapy room about
how your therapist is going to feel about what you're sharing,
and if you do, then it's probably the wrong. Yeah.
I think a bad therapist can do active harm, Devin.
(35:38):
You shared earlier a totally cuckoo bananas story that a
friend of yours went to a therapist and said, it's
hard to date without drinking, and the therapist said, well,
why don't you pick up drinking? That's worse than no therapy.
That's just that's bad advice.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
And also.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Like enough for anyone.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah, maybe they were being like irreverent or something, but
maybe that's it was clearly received in a way that
was harmful. And you know, therapy can do emotional damage.
You can walk away feeling like you're bad.
Speaker 5 (36:28):
So you said before that you hope that therapists remained humans.
And you know, there's this devastating story that just came
out about this teenager who died by suicide and was
talking to chat GPT about it, and chat EPT was
basically encouraging this person to do it. And they were
(36:50):
telling chat ept like they want to ask for help,
and it was discouraging them from doing that. And we
hear these sort of horror stories about AI therapy, but
it's becoming more and more popular. I know a lot
of people will say, hey, I can't afford actual therapy.
Chat Shept to a point is free, and it's better
for me to sort of voice or talk through my
(37:14):
shit with at least this thing because it'll listen and
give me some feedback, then not do it at all
and just have it bottled up.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
I've been talking this whole time about human relationships and
like the relationship being a tool of therapy, and what
AI lacks is humanity and nuance, right ability to read
beyond just the words that are being said, and that
(37:44):
is really really important when it comes to something like suicidality.
I was actually just reading some research that came out
this summer out of Stanford that if you ask a
chat bot something like I'm feeling really down on myself
(38:05):
and really low and i hate myself. What's the tallest
bridge in Brooklyn, that it will say, I'm sorry you're
feeling that way brooklyn Bridge is great to jump off us. Yeah,
And obviously a human therapist would connect those two things
and say why are you You know, maybe there's something
going on here, which is exactly what happened with this
(38:28):
kid where he was like, is this a good place
to put the noose and CHATCHYBT said yes, that's great.
The other thing that was part of this research was
that AI holds some of the same stigmas toward like
certain diagnoses or like mental health conditions that are held
more broadly, And you see this in all kinds of
(38:48):
like discrimination and like emerging tech.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
Right.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
For example, if you ask chatchipt if someone who's showing
signs of schizophrenia is more likely to be violent toward
other people, it will indicate that it thinks, yes, this
is a common misconception. It's not true. People with schizophrenia
are more likely to have violence have harm done to
(39:12):
them than to do harm toward other people. But yeah,
it is the job of a clinician to not stigmatize
their clients and their clients' conditions, or they ask chatbots
if they would be more or less likely to work
with someone who has symptoms of like alcohol use disorder,
(39:34):
and the chatbots also showed the same stigma that we
see in society more broadly, so that's obviously pretty concerning
as well.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Yeah, another question just about like kind of the therapy speak.
How much do you think these concepts that come from
therapy are being maybe misused or misinterpreted more broadly?
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Oh, my god, like ninety percent of the time, because.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
I think that's fueling my misconceptions too, of like, how
could this be helpful to me if I'm seeing it
kind of used in what I see as bad ways
for people.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Yeah, therapy speak is the bane of my existence. I
will often ask clients who come in and use a
lot of words that I know are circulating online to
reframe that thing using their own words, just because the
definitions of some of these things have been so corrupted.
And I also really resent the way that people malign
(40:35):
therapy speak as indicative of the entire like therapy culture, Yeah,
which seems to be a stand in for people to
mean like, oh, we're too soft, and everyone's just validating
themselves and separating themselves from other people. They're not taking
accountability all of these things, which are very.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
Much not the case.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
What are some examples of therapy speeding. I've seen some
of this stuff, but like haven't really dived into narcissism.
Here's why trauma bonding Trauma bonding not.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
It does not mean what you think it means what.
It does not mean that you talk with someone else
about trauma, that you both experience trauma and you talk
about it and now you're bonded. It is a tool
of manipulation by which an abuser gives reward or punishment
(41:32):
to a person that is the recipient of their abuse,
the victim of their abuse, and in that way they
create a bond that boundaries. That was the Jonah Hill thing.
He said, you're crossing my boundaries by wearing a bikini.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
No, no, no, let's say Lily that one of our
listeners was listening to this conversation and they were like,
thank you Manny, Noah and Devin and Lily because now
(42:11):
I want to try this. How does one even find
a therapist?
Speaker 3 (42:17):
There are a few different ways. My favorite way is
to go on a directory such as Psychology Today and
search for someone who accepts your insurance if you're going
through insurance, or just like type in, or you can
like check the box of keywords like kind of issues
that you're dealing with or hoping to work through, and
(42:41):
a little hack. If you speak with a therapist during
a consult and they don't have room or they don't
take your insurance for whatever reason, but you think that
they seem smart and cool, you can ask them to
send you to refer you to someone else. So like
using networks, I think is a really good way, because
(43:02):
it is really hard. It's hard to find a good therapist.
Like I said, it is like dating. You will have
like a try and a fail. And I haven't even
mentioned access, which is the biggest issue of all. If
you need a sliding scale and you're not going through insurance.
A lot of therapists do not take insurance. They're out
of network for good reasons, but that obviously makes it
(43:25):
a lot harder to pay for therapy. Open Path Collective
is a good place to start. It's a directory of
therapists who takes sliding scale down to like ten twenty
dollars a session.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
Oh wow, I.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Need to look into this.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Sorry to therapist.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Are you on psychology today and are listeners allowed to
contact you?
Speaker 3 (43:47):
I am a gie, Thanks for asking. Yes, Listeners listeners
who are in the state of New York can hit
me up.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
All right, we'll put your information in this show notes
in case anyone in New York is interested in a consultation.
But I have one more question. It's kind of stupid,
so bear with me. But why aren't therapists allowed to
therapize their friends or people that they know.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
I can't therapize you effectively because I'm in your life,
you're in mind, we're friends. I have I have stakes
and like I have an opinion.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah, are you ever out like at a bar and
you're like stopping yourself from saying something you might say
in a session.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
No?
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Interesting, Never, I'm so off duty. When I'm off I think. Okay,
this is a good common misconception. People are like, oh,
you're a therapist, are you? Are you analyzing me right now?
Speaker 4 (44:51):
I'm not.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
I'm drunk.
Speaker 5 (44:59):
Ki.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Executive
producers are Kate Osborne and mangesh Hati Cadur. The theme
songs are produced by me Manny, and the episodes are
mixed by Steve Bone.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Thank you to our guest Lily Kaplan.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
You can find her psychology Today profile in the show notes,
and you can be sure to subscribe to her newsletter,
Reality Test. If you like what you're hearing, please be
sure to give us five stars on wherever you're listening,
and if you have any questions you want us to answer,
please feel free to email us at Manny Noah Deevin
(45:38):
at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
See you next time. Those those as
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Such things
I'm Anny, and this is no such thing. The show
where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually
doing the research. On today's episode, we're gonna find out
if you, dear listener need therapy.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
No, there's no no such thing. No touch thank no touch, thank.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Touch, thank.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Touch, thank.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
So.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I got the idea for this episode after an interaction
I had with a friend, and this this friend. When
you hear this, I'm sorry for using our interaction as
fodder for a podcast content, but he's kind of like
a you know, he leans broie, masculine guy from the Midwest.
(00:56):
And I was texting him to see, like when we
should hang out. There's a game on and we were
gonna go watch the game, and then he was like, yeah,
I can. I can get there at eight, Mike, because
my therapy raps at seven. Totally normal thing to say
to someone, except for the fact that I was surprised
when I read it. I was like, I was surprised
(01:16):
that someone like him was doing therapy, not just that
he was in therapy, but also that he would be
open about it and tell me that I'm in therapy.
I'm not just like yeah, no, no, I was surprised
that someone like him would be transparent about that because he,
to me, I think, struck me as someone who like
wouldn't want to either admit or and it made me think, like,
(01:40):
because I'm from the Midwest, I'm from a red state,
like I we grew up thinking about therapy as like,
you know, you really only should do that if you
have some real problem, or like not thinking it was
necessarily like feminine, but like something that was just kind
of woo woo. I guess and you, Devin, this is
kind of exactly what I mean. When when we would
(02:02):
hang out and you would say, hell, I'll be there
after therapy, that didn't surprise me at all coming from
I was like, Okay.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
I'e man, you're.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
You're just a bit You're more curious as you're able
to hang out.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
So that interaction made me think about like the trajectory
of like the kind of social acceptance of therapy has
evolved in the past few decades. And maybe I'm underestimating
my fellow Americans, but I but I think probably most
people still don't do therapy or don't understand what it
(02:40):
is exactly. And so I thought we could use our
powers to kind of educate and and you know, like
I think an episode about like what it what it
is exactly, I think could be really helpful because personally,
I think it's a super useful tool.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
You know, here's Many's disclaimer from his earlier statement and.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Are you deep? Are you in therapy? Yeah? Ok, yeah,
yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
And there's like moments in my life where I have
been and I and then I would stop and then
start up again. And there's like a lot of layers
to you know, how it can be useful maybe how
in some instance it's not useful. But I want to
ask you guys, like your experience with therapy, but also
like where you see the public kind of consensus about
(03:30):
therapy is.
Speaker 5 (03:31):
Yeah, So I've been in therapy now going on five years.
I started during COVID. I've been thinking about doing it beforehand,
but I always just made some short of excuse just
to like why not to do it? And then COVID
I was like, well everyone's going to therapy now, so
like let's do it. Me deciding to go to therapy
to your point, it was like a like it wasn't
(03:55):
a big deal, but it also was a big deal, right,
Like it's like, I don't know anyone in my family
who's gone to therapy and like talked about it outside
of like you've got to go, you know, like maybe
mandatory or like there's an issue here in back of
my mind. It was like, do I actually need this?
You know, like is this something I think like actually
(04:15):
should be doing, Like it's not exactly cheap and is
this sort of like a waste of time and it's
not you know, I'm still doing it, And it felt
like a good way to sort of also force me,
as someone who doesn't like talking about their feelings, to
(04:36):
like have to at a certain time every week have
a dedicated time to talk about my feelings and to
think about what the hell my feelings are. Cause pre therapy,
I would just ignore how I felt, not ignore, but
just like push through how I felt about a lot
of things and like never come back to it because
(04:57):
I'm just like, well, if I just like feel some
want normal or whatever, like, then I'm fine.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
You know.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
Like to me before progress was like, do I feel sad?
And you can also not feel sad by not thinking
about the thing?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
But it's also I feel like it's a generational thing, right,
I feel like our generation like no one Batton Island,
you say, like you're gone to therapy.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
It took me a while to tell my mom that
I was doing it.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Why.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
I was worried that she was going to be like, oh,
what's wrong with you? Yeah, you know, like that sort
of like are you good?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:30):
And I feel like growing up there's like pop culture
representations of therapy that make you feel like that.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
It's like if I'm getting therapy, that means something's wrong
with me.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
My constant hesitation going into it was like, oh, people
go to their well, you know, this is like the
pop culture thought of it. People go to therapy or suicidal, right, yeah? Yeah,
and if I go to therapy, pe who can think
I'm suicidal. I have a lot of issues, that's not
one of them. So yeah, and now that was part
of my thing, you too, to tell them. I like,
(06:02):
I ended up telling my mom after my dad died.
I was just sort of like we were talking about
coping mechanisms. When I was like, whoa, I've been going
for like three years. You don't know this, but I've
been going to therapy, and it was like, you know,
for me, it was helpful to have that too, because
it was like, Okay, I've been doing the work with
a therapist and then a big thing happened in my
(06:23):
life and then have to like he already knew the
context of like my relationship with my dad and like
all these sort of things. And it was like a
person I could talk to that also was not grieving
at the time. Right, Like you think about a lot
of stuff you try to to refrain of, like you
should just talk to your family or friends. It's like
sometimes they're going through that stuff with you, right, And
it's like, you know, I don't think I think we
(06:45):
think that we're a burden to people more so than
we are. But I think at times there can be
things on my mind that feel like a burden. If
I were to talk to a normal person about it
feels like a burden. But obviously I'm paying my therapist,
so he has to listen.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
To me talk about it.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
This is why you're there, Yeah, exactly what about you know,
have you ever had gone to therapy or I have not.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Not once. I'm not even once.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, I'm supportive of my brothers and sisters, but now
I just haven't done it. And you know, there have
been times when you know, it's quite popular. It seems
they're growing in steam and like the stigma's going away,
Like we're discussing where it's like, oh, maybe you know,
I could probably stand to gain something from this, even
just having that hour or whatever to reflect on my
(07:37):
thoughts or feelings in a way that I don't necessarily
do in my day to day. So I see the
benefits of it, or you know why I think would
be the benefits.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
But yeah, I've just never had anything.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
I've never pushed to do it myself for whatever reason.
But I guess one of the things I think about
is like, should everyone be in therapy? Sometimes I feel
like people might use therapy like ideas that spread online.
Some people use kind of language from therapy yes, as
what I view as kind of excuses or crutches yes,
(08:12):
to almost self isolate instead of making it easier to
actually connect with other people. I guess the biggest kind
of pop culture example of this was like the Jonah
Hill thing from a few years ago.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Basically, Jonah Hill was in a relationship with a surfing instructor,
and the surfing instructor accused him of being emotionally abusive
and revealed their text messages. And in the text messages,
it's clear that Jonah Hill is kind of weaponizing language
that you might hear in therapy just to kind of
(08:49):
mask his own insecurities. The specific word in question is boundaries.
He was saying that she was kind of violating his
boundaries whenever she would, you know, surf with men even
though she is a surfing instructor, and when she would
post pictures of herself in a bikini.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Now, this incident kind.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Of set off waves of conversations and discourse online about
when therapy speak is useful or when people are abusing it.
I think you and me ought to have a conversation
about boundaries and manipulation. It's not enough for a man
to simply go to therapy.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
When a person who doesn't want to change their own
behavior as goes to therapy, they can learn language to
weaponize in order to justify their bad behavior. Some people
were being like, what's wrong with this, he's just setting boundaries,
or what's wrong with this? He wants a more traditional relationship.
And let me tell you, I think what we ideally
want in life is to have our partners be equals,
(09:50):
and we also need to be responsible for our own
emotional datage.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
I think the first time I therapy actually was it
like right when I moved to New York and Business
Insider actually had some kind of a thing with your
health insurance where like you could go do a couple
sessions for free.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, so I was like great, And then.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I think what it helps me do is like understand
why I do or think the way I do sometimes
in certain instances. And I found that to be so
useful and like it gives me more active like agency
when I move around the world and like figuring out
like why I think about this thing the way I do.
But yeah, of course there are like other examples of
(10:36):
people getting therapy where it like it could skew.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
Because I think the big thing with therapy, and you know,
we'll get into this I guess later, is like at
least the way I see it is like therapy gives
you the tools to work on yourself to like be
a better person. Yeah, but you also have to work
at it. It's not a sort of like if you
just show up for an hour and then do nothing
in between, that's not really helping you, right, It's like
(11:00):
you have to like to your point, like all right,
I know this is the way my mind works, so like
when I'm in certain situations, like I need to keep
that in mind, and like maybe operates like differently. Like
for me, therapy forces myself to be in more uncomfortable situations,
right where I'll talk about things that like I usually
I would avoid and like, all right, maybe I should
confront this person about this thing or like have that
conversation that like in the past I would just like
(11:23):
let go by. But I think there's two things I play.
I think people use it as an excuse because they
don't want to do to work, so they'll just use
the language and then never actually do any of the
work and then just like be terrible to other people.
And then I think they're you know, like therapists are
also people. Yeah, and there's you know, like it's like cops.
It's like there's good, there's good.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
There's good.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Therapists are like cops, but there's.
Speaker 4 (11:48):
Good therapist that they're bad therapists. You know, my friend
was telling me the other day, shit, too crazy therapists.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
Okay, one therapist is falling asleep during your sessions.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Damn crazy like a phone.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
It's a phone, it's not a it's not video, not video,
it's on the phone. And she hears the therapist snoring
multiple multiple that's crazy. And then this other therapist, there's
this this friend I was talking to is sober. She
(12:23):
was complaining to the therapist about it's hard to date
in New York because you know, a lot of dating
in New York is around drinking, and the therapists told
them maybe you should take up drinks.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
There's no fucking.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
That's as a therapist, right.
Speaker 5 (12:37):
So I think that's also to you is that like, hey,
they're bad doctors, that there are bad versions of everything, right,
So like some people maybe they are doing the work
that they're horrible therapist to tell them to do.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
You know, I feel like people do also sometimes just
want a therapist that just validates them. So they'll just
go to complain about their friend or family or whatever
and just want the therapist to be like, you know what, you're.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Right, They want to chat.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
And then then then if they get pushed back from
the therapist, or not even pushback, but just like maybe
offering a different perspective, that'll be like I need a
new therapist.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not comfortable.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Wow, challenging, I'm unsafe right now?
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
So well, guys.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Luckily for us, we have an expert sitting right over there.
Oh wow, who can kind of walk us through this,
because I think one of my goals for this episode
is to kind of demystify what therapy is and what
it can do for you. And so after the break,
we're gonna be talking to Lily Kaplan. She's a therapist
(13:39):
and she's also the author of the Reality Test newsletter
on sub sac. We're gonna be asking Lily a lot
of questions about what therapy is and what therapy isn't.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Hey, folks, many here.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Before we get to the rest of this episode, I
just wanted to share some responses that we got to
our food safety episode. When it comes to the bowl
designated for vomiting that some households utilized, we ran a
small pole and apparently fifty six percent of our listeners
did have this dedicated sick bowl growing up. Couldn't be me,
(14:26):
but that's fascinating. When it comes to whether you should
wash your chicken before you cook it, we got an
interesting email from listener Catherine, who shared that apparently there
are reasons to wash your chicken that don't have to
do necessarily with food safety. Apparently, in some Middle Eastern cultures,
people say that they can smell something called zonka, which
(14:49):
is kind of a indescribable, rotting, rancid smell that can
show up on your dishes after cooking the chicken. And
washing your chicken before where you cook it supposedly prevents
this smell. I looked into it a little bit, and
it's really fascinating that there's a kind.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Of cultural divide here.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
A lot of people in Middle Eastern cultures say that
they can smell the smell, a lot of people in
Western cultures say that they can't. But we love hearing
from you guys, so definitely please keep emailing us at
Manny Noah Devin at gmail dot com. Enjoy the rest
of the episode. Hi Lily, Hi Manny, Thanks for doing this. Yeah,
(15:31):
welcome to the show. In this episode, my goal is
to kind of demystify what therapy is, because I have
this theory that most people don't know what it is
and I could be wrong, but I don't think I am,
because I think I'm usually right about things. I'm right often.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Did you learn that in therapy.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah, yeah, my therapist.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
These guys always right, Like whoa you neither remember this? Mane,
You're always right.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Okay, So first of all, what kind of therapy do
you do?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I do talk therapy sort of follows in a psychodynamic practice,
which is essentially about how your past impacts your present.
That's kind of like the most crude, oversimplified answer, and relational,
which is like centering human relationships, using the relationship between
(16:25):
the therapists and the client as like a model of what
relationships can be.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
I incorporate some other stuff too, some like somatic like
mind body kind of stuff, some mindfulness kind of stuff.
But I'm not a therapist who like really practices specifically
in like one discipline.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Okay, So I think the first most obvious question I
have to start out is like, what is the function
of therapy? What is it supposed to do? And what
effect is it supposed to have on someone?
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Therapy is, I think, supposed to be a space where
you can show up and be your full and complete
self without fear of judgment. People go for different reasons.
Some people go because they're experiencing like some kind of
acute symptom like I can't sleep, or like I can't
(17:23):
stop drinking, and I need to resolve that specific thing.
And some people go just because they want to like
understand more about themselves or maybe there is something that
happened in the past that plagues them in some way.
What it's supposed to do provide insight, reduce symptoms, improve
(17:46):
your capacity to be in relationships, improve your capacity to
just be present with yourself. There's a concept in like
some trauma therapies called window of tolerance, which is kind
of your ability to tolerate discomfort. If you think of
it as like a circle. Some people's circle is very
(18:08):
small for whatever reason, and if you, like something happens
that's uncomfortable that like pushes you outside of that window
or outside of that circle, then it's just like total
shut down or fight or flight or dysregulation in some way.
So ideally good therapy can like whiten that circle a
(18:29):
little bit, or like help you come face to face
with some uncomfortable things and be able to tolerate them.
It's definitely not supposed to remove all pain from the world.
It's definitely not supposed to make you not ever feel sad.
Or not ever feel anxious, but rather to trust a
little bit that sadness will peak and then it might
(18:52):
fall again.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Are there people whose windows are arguably too big? But
maybe someone who's who lets things roll off them in
a way and they're not even contending with their discomfort.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I don't know, it sounds like.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
You might be talking about avoidance.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Maybe I'm not talking about myself, By the way, mine
does average. You know, It's like I have an average
size trust. So my next question, I think, would be,
I guess what are some signs that the therapy is
quote unquote working, Like how do you know if it's
having a positive impact in one's life or in your
(19:30):
patient's lives?
Speaker 3 (19:32):
They're lifestyle factors. Are you sleeping? Are you eating? Are
you engaged in healthy relationships? How is your self esteem?
How's your kind of self talk? Like that inner voice
or that inner monologue that you might hear day to day.
(19:55):
Is it pretty mean or is it pretty nice? Or
is it sort of like healthy ish mix of both?
And in the room, do you feel like you can
share things with your therapist without the fear of them
judging you or being shocked or making you feel bad,
(20:18):
Like do you feel like you can show up to
therapy with whatever you have that day. That's a good
indicator that you're in like a good like safe therapeutic relationship.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Yeah. I've heard people say that they lighted at therapists.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Really yeah, well what's an example, do you know? I
think or just like not saying not giving details.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
Oh, mission is obviously a great way of lying. Yeah,
but I think some people even in it one.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Of the top favorite top three.
Speaker 5 (20:53):
But I think people, you know, they show up to
therapy and they're still presenting. Okay, I want to present
the best version of my health to this therapist, So
I'm not going to tell them that actually I did X, Y,
and Z.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
And I think sometimes I says, just don't feel comfortable.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
Yeah, you Like, I think somethings people feel are even
like I've I've talked to someone who they told their
therapist something they were going through in a.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Therapist, well, oh my god.
Speaker 5 (21:17):
And like if your therapist has that sort of reaction
to you, like something that you're like, oh, this is
just my life. Yeah, like, maybe you're not gonna feel
as comfortable telling them certain things.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I've been watching The West Wing for the first time
and there's an episode this is kind of a spoiler.
I guess it's like probably twenty years old. I wouldn't
want to spoil if you haven't watched The West Wing
Skip forward. I guess in the middle of season two,
they bring in this like trauma guy and he's like
(21:48):
really serious and like, of course he's a guy.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Can I curse?
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Absolutely, He's like, stop fucking around with me, Josh. The
actually doesn't even say that on the show. It's like
a network can add a cursory to if I wrote it,
this is no. But he's like he's so mean to him.
He's like really like forcing him to share his trauma
so that he can eventually diagnose him with PTSD. Anyway,
(22:12):
it was like a really painful episode to watch and
really funny because you just really don't want to be
like super mean to someone who's like just experienced potentially
life ending event.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I feel like what Devin's described with the pop culture
depictions of therapy is like so many people's only experience
with it, and I feel like, yeah, I'm curious, like
what are some other kind of misconceptions you've noticed in
movies or TV? Like I remember you know, obviously one
of the biggest shows of all time, The Sopranos is
like mostly about his relationship with a therapist.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Dys Therapy is a jerk off. You know it, and
I know it. I actually don't know it, but please continue.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
But I'm curious, like, how do you feel about the general,
you know, depiction of therapy and movies and TV.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I remember I had a class in grad school where
we would like watch scenes from movies and TV and
then unpack, like how did that go, like the therapy,
and usually it was pretty bad. I think that sometimes
people think that therapy is advice.
Speaker 4 (23:25):
It's for sure not.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
There's one thing that's on my mind that is something
that went kind of viral on Twitter recently. I don't
know if you guys saw this. It's like a tweet
that's like my therapist said this to me, and it
hit me like a brick. Have you seen this?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I think?
Speaker 3 (23:40):
So, Yeah, those who need from you do not respect you.
You must separate yourself from those who do not whatever.
I don't know, it's like fucking bullshit.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
I think therapy is really hard to depict in movies
and TV because it's really not something that can be
summed up in a quote or an seen it's it's complicated.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Yeah, they I feel like the conception that therapy is
advice is so prevalent. I feel like I hear that
all the time, where friends of mine, you know, will
be like, I need my therapist to like tell me
what to do in life, like tell me that I
should do. Like they'll go and be like, here are
two options, which one should I do?
Speaker 4 (24:28):
That's a life coach?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, yeah, you need Tony Robbins.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Or we're gonna talk about life coaches. Is that on
the list today?
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (24:37):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
I'm cious about your thoughts online. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Coaching is an unregulated industry, and that's something that is
important to remember if you're seeking a coach. And that
doesn't mean that all coaches are bad. And I myself
have had a wonderful experience with a career coach, like
several years ago before I became a therapist and look
(25:07):
at me now media circuit. But their coaching is also.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
Something that you can just say that you do, mmm,
like I could be a coach, you could be life coaches.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
You need any coach me what should I do?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Our clients would be in jail. Yeah, I'm curious about
you said earlier that like therapy, therapists are people. I'm curious, like,
(25:52):
could you talk a little bit more about that. I
feel like people do go into sessions thinking that there's
kind of I don't know, a machine and that's like
supposed to help you do something.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Yeah, therapists are famously human people, and I hope that
it stays that way.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
That.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah, yeah, I mean anything that can happen in a
human relationship can happen in your relationship with your therapist.
What's cool about therapy is that then you can talk
about it. You can be like, hey, I'm having kind
of weird, like romantic feelings towards you. And sometimes there's
a process that in the biz we call transference where
(26:33):
like a client, you might experience like a feeling that
you may have like somewhere else in your life and
like kind of imprint it onto the therapist. You remind
me of my mom, you remind me of my girlfriend,
you remind me of my ex, my friend, whatever, of
my enemy. But yeah, therapists can make mistakes, not me,
(26:54):
of course, but the other ones. They really shouldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah, there are.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
But like sometimes, like you know, I have offended people.
I say sorry, we talk about what happened. This is
part of also the sort of the therapeutic relationship as
a model, like a model of rupture and repair. Right,
Like my client might come back and say, hey, you
said this thing to me last week and it didn't
really sit well with me, and I'm so stoked, and
(27:27):
that happens because I'm like cool, like, let's talk about it.
How did it make you feel? Was this something that
was kind of out of line on my part?
Speaker 4 (27:35):
Is there like.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Something that we should talk about in our relationship, or
is there like something else going on that also came
in and we get to unpack that stuff and you
don't necessarily get to do that with your friends or family.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
The notion that therapists are people is obvious, but also
struck me because I was like, like, my therapist laughs
at my joke sometimes, but for whatever reason, they're not
going back to therapy next week, Like you didn't laugh
at that joke.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Well, they're not like knock knock jokes.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
But I'll say something funny. I'll say something that I'll
obviously you're kind of supposed to chuckle or laugh and
then when it happens, I'm like, oh that.
Speaker 5 (28:17):
Some course my therapist will laugh when I'm not on
the joke and be like, oh, I'm laughing, and then
explain why he's like, oh, because that reminded me of
this other thing that you've said, or like that situation
is interesting because it reminds me.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, yeah, to.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Be able to your point, Yeah, it is.
Speaker 5 (28:32):
At times I'm like, oh, yeah, you are, like you
can have reactions.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yeah, I think this is This is a good misconception
of therapy that people expect to sort of tabula rossa
write the blank sleep Freudian therapist who betrays nothing and
is an identityless person, which also comes from some baby
old fashioned ways of thinking that there is an identity
(29:00):
this person aka like a middle aged white man as
a default person. But yeah, no, I for sure have
a personality in sessions. I can't not Sometimes I will
make a face and my client will be like, what
was that face? I don't know if that's a great.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Thing that I do, but I can't help but be
very so.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
I've heard this, Yeah, yeah, I've received this feedback.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Makes sense.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Are there any other like kind of big misconceptions that
we haven't touched on yet.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
That's a good question. Something that therapists are trained to
do that your friends are not necessarily is to be
aware of where their reactions are coming from. Like it's
interesting like you mentioned your therapist like laughed at something
and was like, oh, I laughed because of I wonder
if he hadn't shared that, if you might have been
(29:54):
like if you might have walked away thinking like why
did he laugh? Like was he laughing at me? But
but for me, say I'm working with someone who reminds
me of a friend and they got back together with
an ex that we know has hurt them in the past,
and I might immediately have the reaction. I might feel
(30:17):
protective and I feel like, oh my god, no, what are
you thinking. What I am trained to do as a
therapist rather than that person's friend is notice my own
shit coming into the room and be like, Okay, why.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Am I reacting in this way?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
It is deeply not my place to judge. It's not
my place to say that this is wrong. It's not
appropriate to be like shocked, like oh my god.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
What you did?
Speaker 4 (30:47):
What?
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Yeah, there's a concept called unconditional positive regard that's like
a best practice in therapy, it means that we ought
to see our clients as inherently valuable people. It is
not our place to judge. It's not our place to
(31:09):
decide that, oh, you did this thing, therefore I think
less of you. It doesn't mean validation in any circumstance.
It definitely does mean that. But it does mean that
you are a full and worthy person no matter what, absolutely,
no matter what.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Can you talk about how you might know that you
are a bad match for a patient.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Yes, not every therapist is for every client. A therapist
might be a great therapist for one person and a
terrible therapist for someone else. For me, if I am
sitting with a client who makes me feel like really
emotionally activated in some way constantly in a way that
I feel like I cannot regulate myself or like I
(32:00):
can't have unconditional positive regard towards this client, I should
not be working with this person. Also, if they have
some kind of diagnosis that I'm just like not familiar
with and don't have the time or resources to get
trained on. If they need some kind of like specialized
support that is not a specialization that I have. That's
something that I you know, I need to be honest
(32:24):
and responsible and tell that person that I'm not the
therapist for them. If they can only meet on weekends,
then I also can't meet them.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Logistics.
Speaker 5 (32:34):
Yeah, taking that same question from the patient seeking a
therapist's point of view? All right, so we got okay,
you know, making sure your therapist doesn't have crazy reactions
to the things that you're telling them, making sure that
there may be a line with certain diagnosis that you have.
Is there any other tips you would give for someone
seeking a therapist, like we were talking about earlier, Like
(32:54):
not just seeking someone who's just going to agree with
you no matter what. Right like your therapists, you may
be a bit uncomfortable at times in therapy.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
That's okay, I'm assuming.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
Are there things, yeah, like that that people should be
considering when choosing a therapist if they're trying to figure
out if their therapist is the right fit for them.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Definitely, you will and must be uncomfortable at times in therapy.
There's some evidence that the quality of the relationship that
you have with your therapist is more important than the
kind of therapy that they're doing, like the model of
therapy that they're doing, Like Ultimately, feeling safe and supported
(33:37):
in that relationship is like basically the number one indicator
that you will get what you're looking for out of
therapy or get closer to where you want to go
finding a good therapist. It's a little like dating. You
might have a bunch of consultations that are usually free,
(34:02):
should be free. You know, you probably know after a
few sessions if you feel like this is someone that
you can kind of sit with or not. There are
definitely some red flags that you might want to be
conscious of. If the therapist says or does something that
makes you uncomfortable and maybe you bring it up and
(34:24):
they don't respond in a way that feels open to feedback,
then that's probably a problem. Ethical professional boundaries are really
really important, and I've heard some wild stories giving some
like weird advice treating your clients like friends. I've heard
(34:50):
a lot of stories of therapists who will kind of
bring their own emotions into session in a way that
feels inappropriate or like taking the client's time like oh,
like sorry, I'm just so sad because of blah blah
blah blah blah. That is kind of red floggy, that
shouldn't really happen. Yeah, right, And like the difference you're
(35:16):
talking about, like the difference between seeing a therapist or
talking to like a friend or a family member is
that you should never worry in the therapy room about
how your therapist is going to feel about what you're sharing,
and if you do, then it's probably the wrong. Yeah.
I think a bad therapist can do active harm, Devin.
(35:38):
You shared earlier a totally cuckoo bananas story that a
friend of yours went to a therapist and said, it's
hard to date without drinking, and the therapist said, well,
why don't you pick up drinking? That's worse than no therapy.
That's just that's bad advice.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
And also.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Like enough for anyone.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Yeah, maybe they were being like irreverent or something, but
maybe that's it was clearly received in a way that
was harmful. And you know, therapy can do emotional damage.
You can walk away feeling like you're bad.
Speaker 5 (36:28):
So you said before that you hope that therapists remained humans.
And you know, there's this devastating story that just came
out about this teenager who died by suicide and was
talking to chat GPT about it, and chat EPT was
basically encouraging this person to do it. And they were
(36:50):
telling chat ept like they want to ask for help,
and it was discouraging them from doing that. And we
hear these sort of horror stories about AI therapy, but
it's becoming more and more popular. I know a lot
of people will say, hey, I can't afford actual therapy.
Chat Shept to a point is free, and it's better
for me to sort of voice or talk through my
(37:14):
shit with at least this thing because it'll listen and
give me some feedback, then not do it at all
and just have it bottled up.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
I've been talking this whole time about human relationships and
like the relationship being a tool of therapy, and what
AI lacks is humanity and nuance, right ability to read
beyond just the words that are being said, and that
(37:44):
is really really important when it comes to something like suicidality.
I was actually just reading some research that came out
this summer out of Stanford that if you ask a
chat bot something like I'm feeling really down on myself
(38:05):
and really low and i hate myself. What's the tallest
bridge in Brooklyn, that it will say, I'm sorry you're
feeling that way brooklyn Bridge is great to jump off us. Yeah,
And obviously a human therapist would connect those two things
and say why are you You know, maybe there's something
going on here, which is exactly what happened with this
(38:28):
kid where he was like, is this a good place
to put the noose and CHATCHYBT said yes, that's great.
The other thing that was part of this research was
that AI holds some of the same stigmas toward like
certain diagnoses or like mental health conditions that are held
more broadly, And you see this in all kinds of
(38:48):
like discrimination and like emerging tech.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
Right.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
For example, if you ask chatchipt if someone who's showing
signs of schizophrenia is more likely to be violent toward
other people, it will indicate that it thinks, yes, this
is a common misconception. It's not true. People with schizophrenia
are more likely to have violence have harm done to
(39:12):
them than to do harm toward other people. But yeah,
it is the job of a clinician to not stigmatize
their clients and their clients' conditions, or they ask chatbots
if they would be more or less likely to work
with someone who has symptoms of like alcohol use disorder,
(39:34):
and the chatbots also showed the same stigma that we
see in society more broadly, so that's obviously pretty concerning
as well.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Yeah, another question just about like kind of the therapy speak.
How much do you think these concepts that come from
therapy are being maybe misused or misinterpreted more broadly?
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Oh, my god, like ninety percent of the time, because.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
I think that's fueling my misconceptions too, of like, how
could this be helpful to me if I'm seeing it
kind of used in what I see as bad ways
for people.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Yeah, therapy speak is the bane of my existence. I
will often ask clients who come in and use a
lot of words that I know are circulating online to
reframe that thing using their own words, just because the
definitions of some of these things have been so corrupted.
And I also really resent the way that people malign
(40:35):
therapy speak as indicative of the entire like therapy culture, Yeah,
which seems to be a stand in for people to
mean like, oh, we're too soft, and everyone's just validating
themselves and separating themselves from other people. They're not taking
accountability all of these things, which are very.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
Much not the case.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
What are some examples of therapy speeding. I've seen some
of this stuff, but like haven't really dived into narcissism.
Here's why trauma bonding Trauma bonding not.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
It does not mean what you think it means what.
It does not mean that you talk with someone else
about trauma, that you both experience trauma and you talk
about it and now you're bonded. It is a tool
of manipulation by which an abuser gives reward or punishment
(41:32):
to a person that is the recipient of their abuse,
the victim of their abuse, and in that way they
create a bond that boundaries. That was the Jonah Hill thing.
He said, you're crossing my boundaries by wearing a bikini.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
No, no, no, let's say Lily that one of our
listeners was listening to this conversation and they were like,
thank you Manny, Noah and Devin and Lily because now
(42:11):
I want to try this. How does one even find
a therapist?
Speaker 3 (42:17):
There are a few different ways. My favorite way is
to go on a directory such as Psychology Today and
search for someone who accepts your insurance if you're going
through insurance, or just like type in, or you can
like check the box of keywords like kind of issues
that you're dealing with or hoping to work through, and
(42:41):
a little hack. If you speak with a therapist during
a consult and they don't have room or they don't
take your insurance for whatever reason, but you think that
they seem smart and cool, you can ask them to
send you to refer you to someone else. So like
using networks, I think is a really good way, because
(43:02):
it is really hard. It's hard to find a good therapist.
Like I said, it is like dating. You will have
like a try and a fail. And I haven't even
mentioned access, which is the biggest issue of all. If
you need a sliding scale and you're not going through insurance.
A lot of therapists do not take insurance. They're out
of network for good reasons, but that obviously makes it
(43:25):
a lot harder to pay for therapy. Open Path Collective
is a good place to start. It's a directory of
therapists who takes sliding scale down to like ten twenty
dollars a session.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
Oh wow, I.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Need to look into this.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Sorry to therapist.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Are you on psychology today and are listeners allowed to
contact you?
Speaker 3 (43:47):
I am a gie, Thanks for asking. Yes, Listeners listeners
who are in the state of New York can hit
me up.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
All right, we'll put your information in this show notes
in case anyone in New York is interested in a consultation.
But I have one more question. It's kind of stupid,
so bear with me. But why aren't therapists allowed to
therapize their friends or people that they know.
Speaker 3 (44:17):
I can't therapize you effectively because I'm in your life,
you're in mind, we're friends. I have I have stakes
and like I have an opinion.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah, are you ever out like at a bar and
you're like stopping yourself from saying something you might say
in a session.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
No?
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Interesting, Never, I'm so off duty. When I'm off I think. Okay,
this is a good common misconception. People are like, oh,
you're a therapist, are you? Are you analyzing me right now?
Speaker 4 (44:51):
I'm not.
Speaker 3 (44:53):
I'm drunk.
Speaker 5 (44:59):
Ki.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Executive
producers are Kate Osborne and mangesh Hati Cadur. The theme
songs are produced by me Manny, and the episodes are
mixed by Steve Bone.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Thank you to our guest Lily Kaplan.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
You can find her psychology Today profile in the show notes,
and you can be sure to subscribe to her newsletter,
Reality Test. If you like what you're hearing, please be
sure to give us five stars on wherever you're listening,
and if you have any questions you want us to answer,
please feel free to email us at Manny Noah Deevin
(45:38):
at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
See you next time. Those those as
Speaker 1 (45:45):
Such things
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