October 1, 2025 • 53 mins
This week, we’re asking: what do you do when your favorite artist becomes a self-proclaimed N*zi? And we dive into the new documentary In Whose Name?, which claims to show Kanye in a new light.
Don't forget to cast your votes for the Signal Awards. We've been nominated for: Best Buddy Podcast and Activism, Public Service, & Social Impact for our episode about Online Pedophile Hunters.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello Roger, yah yo yo. All right, well, I need
you to make an announcement for the podcast. You know,
we got nominated for two Signal Awards. Okay, we got
Best Buddy Podcasts and then we got Activism, Public Service
(00:24):
and Social Impact for our episode of Online Pedophile Hunters.
So you gotta tell the people, go vote, vote.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
So what I gotta say, just say tell him right now,
say go vote. Go to the Signal Awards. We got
a link in the show notes. Go ahead again, everybody,
go vote. Already heard my brother say, go vote. Good awards.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Go vote.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
All right, I'm gonna put that at the start of
the episode. All right, Manny, and this is Devin and
this is no such thing to show we set our
dumb arguments in your by actually doing the research on
today's episode. Why we miss the old Kanye.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
No, there's no no such thing.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
No touch thank no touch thank touch thank touch thank.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah. This is Its been a lot since I've seen
a lot of this stuff, so it was fun going through.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
I almost don't want to be taken back to these
to this era.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
I feel like this is like an alcoholics anonymous meeting.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Uh do not like this.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
My name is Devin, and I want to confess to
being I was a pretty big Kanye fan. Sure, I'm
just gonna admit it. I mean, I'm just gonna say it.
I'm gonna put it on Mike. Uh. You all were
Kanye fans growing up?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Huge, And you guys knew I was a Kanye fan. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Probably when I first met you. I remember how much
you liked Kanye West. That's one that's one thing that
sticks out at the time.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would say when I met y'all,
I feel like I had sort of honed it in
a bit probably.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
You know when you talk to someone and you can
tell they're really into something, but they're also trying not
to let that show. I remember once one conversation we
had about like the set pieces during the was it
the Glow and the Dark tour? Yeah, And you just
had all of this knowledge about it and then kind
of like towards the end, just caught yourself and like,
(02:41):
yeah it was cool, and I was like, oh, this
guy's a fan.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah. Yeah, I was in deep out. Let me put
it this way. I don't think I will ever be
into anything as much as I was into Kanye West.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
You know, it's hard, I think, especially just as you
get older, it's hard to.
Speaker 6 (02:56):
Get that excitement about anything, even if you're still doing
deep dives onto artist and stuff.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It's exactly So here's the thing. If you've been listening
to the show, you know that we usually bring in experts,
but for this episode we already experts for over a
decade being a Kanye fan, which is just such a
(03:23):
major part of who I was as a person. So
much of my taste, the way I dress, the music
I listened to, the movies I love, so much of
that is it was because of Kanye. If we were friends, you,
through osmosis would eventually become a Kanye fan. I remember
(03:44):
this one time I was driving my younger brother and
we were listening to Kanye's VH one Storytellers, and he
was going on this rant about not reading. I think
I saw on a movie. I get my quotes from
movies because I don't read. And my brother had just
(04:04):
started he was just at the age where he would
start to actually listen to the words on the radio.
And he turned to me and he said, Devin, you're
not supposed to say that, like why are you saying that, Evin,
like reading is good? And it was one of those
moments where it was just made explicitly clear just how
blurred the lines had become my own brother, not even
(04:29):
recognizing that the person on the radio wasn't me, Which
brings us to today's episode, which is, like, what do
you do when someone you look up to, someone who's
become such a major part of your life, turns out
to be a self proclaimed nazi? Must to release of
(04:50):
this new documentary about him now more than ever felt
like the time for us to like truly reckon for
Kanye fandom and talk through what do we do with
a man who, in many ways we can no longer
recognize and why more importantly, did we let him get
(05:11):
away with so much for so long? When you're heartbroken
in such a dramatic way, when you go all in
on someone like I went in on Kanye, it is
really tough when Kanye becomes Kanye and then you're like, oh,
(05:34):
I'm stuck, you know. So now I feel like with
like artists or anything, I have like a little bit
of a distance of like, oh this is cool, but
like I'm not going to give my life.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
Over to you, Yeah, I can't make this me exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I need a separation.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Yeah, And just to add on to that analogy, if
it's for analogizing it like a relationship. He also didn't
do like one thing that was like all right, I'm
done and I'm heartbroken. It was like we kind of
broke up with him, got back together like that kind
of a toxic relationship until finally we were like all.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Right, until there was that hard, hard breakup to My
relationship with Kanye started with the College Dropout. Obviously, Jesus
Walks was playing on the radio everywhere. I have a
(06:29):
very core memory of being in a car with like
my aunt and Jesus Walks is playing and she's like, wow,
that's crazy. You know, he's wrapping about Jesus on the radio.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Jesus.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
So he'd go my single dog radio niece.
Speaker 7 (06:41):
Then they say, you can remember about anything except for Jesus,
Me's Gone Sex Lives video team.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
But if I talk about Guy, my record won't get played.
And my dad didn't remember this, but he actually bought
the College Dropout and I was back when I still
had a CD player walkman, you know that was the
time in like fifties, peak. The Gangster rap was very
much in I love the fifty album. Uh, the Beach
(07:09):
were incredible to the music was good, but like I wasn't
relating to the lyrics. It's like it was like movie stuff.
You know, It's like, oh yeah, shot nine times whatever,
God up. And Kanye was obviously his big thing was
he's playing us like the foil to that. And so
you know, most of this album is like very musical
(07:32):
and like connected with me right away. But to this day,
I think this song right here, it's underrated and underappreciated.
Your son he made the team this year. This is
family business. Uh, Kanye raps about you know, growing up
(07:52):
in his family, his cousin being in jail.
Speaker 7 (07:58):
This is family business. And it's just for a family
that can't be with us. And it's just for my
cousin lockdown or the answers, and it's just why I
fitted in my song.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
So sweet, like sharing the bed with his cousins. Which
we'll go back to having a meeting today, right like
you ain't took a band, but your cousin fit three
in the bid.
Speaker 7 (08:18):
If it's sixty, you'll I'm talking about three by the
head and three by the leg, but you ain't have
to tell my girl like used.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
To in the bid like beautiful soul sample, damn still here.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Oh yeah. It's it's also such an indication of how
incredible the production was. Like those early Kanye West like
kick drums and snares are so identifiable if you hear
them in songs today, you're like, oh yeah, so he
just had like such a distinct identity at the time.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And out the gate, you know, it's the first album.
It's crazy that, like, you know, especially for someone who
came in a game as a producer, people are telling like,
you can't wrap to come in and have like this
album that feels so fully formed. And then you know,
there's the music, and then there's also the other aspect
(09:11):
of it, which is he's coming as this foil of
like this other sort of version of like what black
masculine and he can be. You know. In two thousand
and five, he's doing an interview with Sway on MTV
when MTV Cared about music, and he's talking about like
homophobia and hip hop in two thousand and five, which
(09:32):
is is just crazy.
Speaker 8 (09:33):
It's like I would really discriminate, like I use the
word fat fact, fact fact, like always a condescendant towards
gaze and look and look down upon gays. And I'm
and my cousin told me that another one of my
cousins was gay. And at that point, it's kind of
(09:53):
when the turning point where I was like, yo, yo,
this is my cousin.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
I I love him, Like.
Speaker 8 (10:01):
I've been discriminating against gays. It's like, do I discriminate
against my cousin. I wanted just to just come on
TV and just tell my rappers, just tell my friends, like, yo,
stop it famm like, like seriously that that's really discrimination.
(10:23):
To me, that's exactly what they used to do to
black people. I'm just trying to tell people just stop all.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
That listening to this. This was like the first artist
where I was like, oh, like I can connect.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Yeah, And I think he had a background too that
was a lot more relatable to the average person, Like
he didn't like he made a point to say this
in some of the songs back then that he didn't
have like that crazy of a childhood as like some
of other rappers did, and had kind of like a
more closer to like a suburban like kind of nice upbringing,
(10:55):
not rich, but like not in not very poor, like yeah,
just like it just felt like this is a more
accessible artist I think.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah, exactly. So over my last time, I've seen Kanye
perform eleven times live. The first concert I've ever been
to was the Glone and the Dark tour. And speaking
of Kanye performing, this is really embarrassing. Okay, this is
gonna be a tough one to show. So when I
(11:28):
was in high school, right, you know how they would
be talent shows we have, and it kind of became
a thing that every school like variety show or singing
competition and to come out and perform as Kanye. So
I will play a snippet of this. All right, We're
(11:51):
not going to watch very much of this.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
They're screaming, wow, oh got the moves.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Shades of course, so your.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
Body language like you've got the moves.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
So yeah, that's you know, that's all to say. I
was a pretty big Kanye fan, uh, you know, especially
in high school and as a Kanye fan, and we
have our oh come get your boy moments, uh, the
first big one obviously being Taylor Swift at the VMA's
(12:40):
gon Taylor, I'm really happy for you. I'll let you finish.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
But Beyonce had one of.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
The best videos of all time, one of the best videos.
Speaker 9 (12:52):
Of all time.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Do you remember where you were when Yep, when he
when he did that, I.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Was in my parents' basement because that's where like watch
the Baby Baby. It was yeah, for like the for
me and my siblings, and I just remember that being
kind of like the first moment on the Internet that
I can remember that everyone was talking about or like, yes,
(13:27):
that that felt like wow. Everyone was went straight to
Facebook after that and we talked about it for like hours.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yes, yeah, I remember I was in my room watching
it and it was a thing where Tyrriler won and
I just sort of like I wasn't really paying attention
and then I look up and then Kanye is on stage.
And then obviously at the time, everybody knows me as
the Kanye guy, so everyone just when you were right
on people's walls, and I had, like I had like
make a public statement.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
About it, press conference, press stop.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I was like, oh, oh, yeah, don't condone is it
was funny, but you know, he obviously he shouldn't have
done that. And then the next day he appears on
jay Leno. When did it strike you.
Speaker 9 (14:11):
Uh, like as soon as I gave the mic back
to her and then she didn't keep going.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
I'm let me ask him.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I was fortunate enough to meet your mom and talk
with your mom a number of years ago. Uh, what
do you think she would have said about this?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Would she be disappointed in this? Would he give you
a lecture?
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (14:51):
You know obviously, you know I deal with her, and
you know so many you know, celebrities, they never take
the time off, and I've never taken the time off
to really you know. I just music after music, and
to a tour and tour, and now I just a
shame that my hurt calls you know, someone else's hurt.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
I remember being so deep in my Kanye's like fandom
at that point that I was like, boom, we've got
our talking points. He was upset because his mother passed
away recently. That's why he acted out. Everyone should feel
shamed for like dunking or like dogging on him, dog
piling on him. After what happened, It's so funny watching
(15:33):
that this many years later, like that event, the interrupting
of someone during her acceptance speech would not cause nearly
as much drama. I think as it did back then,
especially with like you know, the optics of like a
rapper interrupting a country. I guess she was kind of
(15:53):
more country back then the race was like the racial
undertones to it and stuff like. But to day and
like how absurd everything we consume is today, Like we
would be like lol, like that, you wouldn't be doing
an apology tour.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
We literally like disappeared after this, yeah, right, Like he
went away for a while, went to Hawaii, worked on
the next album, and then one year later we're back
at the VMAs. Taylor Swift performs her song Innocent, which
is about the Kanye incident.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
I was analyzing these lyrics, like what is she saying
about him?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
And that was the same night that Kanye had his comeback,
So we got this moment classic yeah, you know, we
got the white stage, Kanye comes out in the red suit.
Speaker 4 (16:57):
Way better.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Come on, He's at the NPC.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
And this was the premiere of the song. If I recall,
no one heard.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
This, No one had heard this. This is really peak era.
Speaker 5 (17:12):
And then the Good Friday, Oh yeah, nothing compared.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Best run Away. And I just remember because this was
(17:41):
the last performance of the night. Oh yeah, And I
remember it being like, Okay, Kanye fans were back on top.
You know, we took we took a step back. Maybe
you know, he made some mistakes, but like people were
kind of over the tailor thing. The music was good again,
and and like you know, at the end of the day,
(18:03):
like interrupting someone in an award show maybe not the
worst thing. I think things kind of got put in perspective. Yeah,
you know, a year after, I'm just sort of like,
what are we doing here? And as all helps when
you make, you know, some of the best music of your.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Career, it's mutually beneficial to both parties this way, Like clearly.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
It did feel like we were like part of some
kind of a clan. Yes, like that, We're just like, oh,
our leader did it?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yes, like he pulled it off. We won. Yes. Yeah,
I will say this. I do think there's an incident
that led to the downfall of Kanye shortly after this. Yeah,
and I think it has nothing to do with Taylor Swift.
After the break, Kanye starts to unravel and our fandom
(18:48):
is put to the test. I think for me, the
real unraveling of Kanye happened after Kim got robbed right now.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
We're going to get that breaking news overnight.
Speaker 9 (19:05):
Kim Kardashian wes robbed at gunpoint in Paris.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Her husband Kanye ended his concert right in the middle
of a song when he got the.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Word do you remember this? Yeah, So I was actually
at the show. I do remember you being there.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
Yeah, you're the Forest Company.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah you're Kanye to me, this this was like the
moment where Kanye like it felt like you sort of
hit this peak he had control of you know, he's
on top of the world and felt like that Kim
being robbed, it was like something was outside of his control, right,
(19:43):
and we started to see him I think lash out
new ways post that influences the King of the human being,
don't with me, with me, don't with me. But you know,
we were still all aboard.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
You know.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
It was like music was good. The music was still good.
Right after this, we got The Life of Pablo, which
me and Noah were at the listening party premiere of
that fashion whatever it was. It was like a fashion
show and premiere at MSG. It was very cool, and
that's when we got our first listen of Famous. Oh
(20:25):
yeah fall my South sad niggas that know me best.
I feel like me and Taylor might still have sex.
Why I made that bitch famous. God, dude, I made
that bitch famous. And I remember the time being like,
oh God, here we go again, you know, as we're there.
But then truly after he's like, hey, guys, actually I
(20:46):
talked to Taylor about it. It's fine. She signed off
on it. She actually gave me the idea for it.
I was like, I don't know about that.
Speaker 9 (20:57):
Taylor's team responded, saying that they were not aware of
the actual lyrics, but I've warned Kanye about releasing that song.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Kim then defends Kanye in a GQ article, saying he
did speak to Tailor on the phone, and then leaks
parts of their conversation on Snapchat for on my South
Side niggas that know me best. I feel like me
and Taylor might still have sex.
Speaker 9 (21:21):
Like give a fuck about It's just you as a
person and as a friend.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
I want things that make you feel good.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, I mean, go whatever line better and bobbing through
a very tongue in.
Speaker 5 (21:32):
Cheeks either way.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, And I really appreciate you telling me about it.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
That's really nice. Taylor then responds saying she didn't know
that Kanye was gonna call her a bit specifically. But
at the time, once again, Kanye fans were like, hey,
We're hey.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
He All we needed was ever, all we needed was
one little piece of evidence that could be spun in
to a defense. That's it exactly. And I guess Taylor
Swift is a lying scumbag and I never want to
hear people.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
You know, Snake the famous video was the first moment
where I was like, Okay, Kanye did something and there's
no defending it.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
You remember, it's like, isn't it Like it's like essentially
Madame Tussaud wax figures of celebrities in bed with him.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yes, we got Anna Winter.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Is that Trump?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Donald Trump?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (22:39):
My god, Rihanna? Who is next to Chris Brown? Taylor Swift?
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Oh no, this is really bad.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, there's Kanye obviously, and is that a figure is
to him? No, it's these are all They're like wax
figures laying in bed. There's Ray j oh the Amber Rose,
his ex girlfriend. There's Caitlyn Jenner, Bill Cosby, Jesus Christ,
and they're all positioned naked, laying in the bed. And
(23:13):
this film's kind of like a snuff video. Yeah, and
the thing that you know, obviously there's a lot of
things wrong with this video, one of which is like
he depicts all of these women as you know, naked.
He didn't get approval from any of these women ahead
of doing this. Taylor Swift is topless, they got you know,
Rian is in amber Rose are topless, and.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
And even in the story of the video, it's without
consent really like he's just in the room. It looks
like he's not supposed.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
To be there.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
In the film, it's like, oh, this is like these
people are sleeping and I snuck in and I'm filming it. Obviously,
Taylor Swift was not happy about this. Yeah, rightfully. So
this is like one of the first Kanye things where
I was like, actually, there's no spin to this, you
(24:06):
can't defend this. And it felt like, dude, you like
had a win, like just take it and like leave
it alone. And it just felt like vindictive. It wasn't
creative to me at all, Like it didn't feel like art.
It just felt like something to like get a reaction
out of people.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
Yeah, I remember feeling like it was done strictly to
shock you m M. Versus for any other like kind
of meaningful reason. Yeah, not that it needs to be. Yeah, yeah,
this was supposed to make you go, what the fuck?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Sometimes art is provocative and it makes you uncomfortable, but
there's like a point to it, and this just felt like, Oh, Taylor,
you want to be an asshole about the song, Well,
I'm gonna put naked in a video and you're not
going to have any say, which is really kind of
fucked up. To recap the Kanye raveling, we have Kim
(24:58):
getting robbed in Harris, then he got the famous video
shortly after that. In November of twenty sixteen, right after
Trump wins the election, Kanye goes on a rant in
Sacramento for twenty minutes saying he would have voted for Trump.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Voted Trump.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
So in the end tour early Kanye gets hospitalized at
the time, and they say it's because he's exhausted. Now,
it's been reported that Kanye has since been rushed to
this hospital in La. It's after police were cooled to
a medical emergency. It's believed the start is suffering from
severe sleep deprivation and exhaustion. Later they say he's diagnosed
(25:42):
with bipolar disorder, and then Shortly after that, he appears
at Trump Tower. Kanye has died his era blond, which
is funny because they're standing next to Trump with the
bond here and he's sort of just posed next to Trump.
Speaker 5 (25:55):
Just friends, just friends, and it's a good man.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Well a long time.
Speaker 9 (26:01):
We've been friends for a long.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Time ago, and I remember at the time being like,
all right, we'll give him a pass. He went through
sort of a mental health episode, you know, so the
Trump stuff at the concert, that's okay, yeah, I remember this,
all right, maybe we'll give him a pass for this.
There everybody was kind of doing a version of this.
Dave Chappelle was on SNL saying give Trump a chance,
(26:25):
you know, like everyone was like, let's see how this
plays out. And then shortly after this, we get the
infamous TMZ slavery this choice moment, right, and it was
the sort of thing where we saw the headline and
we were like, you know, that seems really bad, but
(26:45):
like there's no way he could have possibly have said it.
And then we watched the club and it was actually
it was it got worse.
Speaker 9 (26:55):
When you hear about slavery for four hundred years, for
four hundred years, that sounded like a choice, like he
was there for four hundred years and it's all of y'all.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
And I remember, I, uh, this maybe one of my
most viral tweets because I tweeted out the Kanye clip
and you know, publicly declared. Talking about my public statements,
I was like, I'm done being a Kanye fan. I'm
not going to any more shows, I'm not buying any
more merch, like this is the line for me.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
At that point, I still stuck around a little bit
because I thought this might be some kind of perverse
version of album promotion, like he's always doing crazy kind
of antics right before an album is about to come out.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah, it's true, but I don't know. This time felt
different for me, and I was, you know, as we're
preparing to do this, I was like, why why? Because
I felt like if I was going to stop being
a fan of Kanye, it would be a more gradual thing,
wouldn't be just like a flip of switch, because he's
done stuff in the past that's obviously been problematic. Kanye
throughout his career has been accused of misogyny and you know,
(28:05):
the way he's talked about black women, like all that
sort of stuff. I feel like I've always made excuses
for that. There's this like justin Vernon quote from Navia
when he was working on Eases and they were like,
how could you work on an album like this where
he's saying like crazy stuff on that album, and justin
Vernon's like, well, he's like playing a character. It's like
America's right, And that was like the justification in my mind.
(28:26):
I'm like, oh, for all that other stuff, like he's
playing a character, but yeah, you know, this time it
felt different, And I think the obvious thing is like
I felt implicated this right, It's like, okay, you're talking
about black people that involves me. Yep, Like now I
feel like it's a problem because that other shit, like
it was bad, but it didn't really have to deal
with me. And this was also the time where black
(28:48):
people were getting the cops called on them like every
other day.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
It felt like there was a random news story the
year of the Karen. Yes, that's the breast of like
when people started calling.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
People, Yeah, that's when Karen became a thing. It was
Trump one point zero, right, So it was like black
people were also in this precarious position in the world
so then for this celebrity who I'm a big fan
of attacking black people at this time, especially because black
people had been in the past the main people defending
(29:20):
Kanye and his antics right and being like, hey, hey, hey,
leave our boy alone. It just felt like that was
different for some reason. So a lot happened after this.
I'll do a speed around just going through it. I
had to sort of re educate myself though, because I've
been a little out of the loop. But right after this,
(29:40):
they went to Wyoming and they released the seven Song albums.
Then he got religious and sorted his Sunday service. He
stopped cursing on his albums, released some gospel albums. He
ran for president in twenty twenty. I forgot all about that.
He received nearly sixty seven thousand votes in twelve states.
He started hanging out with some white nationalists Nick Quintes.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
They went and had dinner with Trump. Uh, and then
Trump got a lot of backlash for that.
Speaker 9 (30:08):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Right after that, he has the white.
Speaker 5 (30:11):
When Trump is getting back last for having dinner.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
With you.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Saying something.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
He made a white Lives Matter shirt. Shortly after that
was the He's gonna go deaf Con three on Jewish People,
and then he was on Alex Jones talking about praising Hitler,
and even Alex Jones was like, maybe you're going too far.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
He got dropped by Adidas releases a song about giving
his cousin head.
Speaker 4 (30:47):
And we remember this cousin from the first song he played.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
In the Family Business. You know, we have the beautiful
song about growing up with your cousins, and then we
nat today the cousin song is about giving your your
cousin had and then we have like a song called
hell Hitler where you can't even pretend that there is
(31:10):
some something other than let me shock people and get
people to change yeah Swasika T shirts. So I feel
like at this point Kanye has lost a lot of
relevance that he had before in terms of like good
music in art, and now the way he gets attention
(31:34):
is by just making a lot of noise. And that's
not to say I don't you know that he doesn't
believe the things that he is saying, But it's clear
to me that he is just trying to shock people
and he's he's out of ideas. It's what it reads
to me.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
Yeah, I and I wrote about this for MSNBC at
the time, where it's like, of course, the natural trajectory
for someone who can trying to shock, he was going
to be like, well, yeah, Hitler was good, like the
number one enemy of history.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (32:06):
Is that like that's the kind of the last stop
on the train of trying to SHOCKI So it makes sense. Yeah,
but it does feel desperate and sad and like when
he would do some of this crazy shit, and like
in the mid twenty tens or early twenty tens, it
felt like there was you could point to some nugget
of art artistry in it, but like, yeah, at this point,
(32:27):
it's like, so this is someone who is completely off
the rails.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
No, how how do you feel as a you know,
a Jewish Kanye fan. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
I mean there's.
Speaker 6 (32:41):
Like a song like Hail Hitler, for example, I never
expected to be a song I would love.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
And like hearing it.
Speaker 5 (32:48):
It's not like I guess it's I try to think
about it in the context.
Speaker 6 (32:52):
Of other artists or other people, and like if I
was just approaching it as by itself, like just talking
about that one song, say, I'd be like in a vacuum, Yeah,
if it sounded really good, it's hard to say I
could look past it, but like if there was something
a little bit more to it, or like, Okay, this
is an interesting composition or something, it would disturb me
that this is the subject matter.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
But I could.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I could.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
Personally, I'd be able to listen.
Speaker 6 (33:16):
I could listen to pretty much like I certainly listened
to artists that I disagree with on things, whether it's
in their music or outside of it, Kanye being one
of them. There's other rappers who I think have anti
Semitic views. They're slightly more subtle about it. They'll subtle
like fair con or something, you know, and it's obviously
different timber, but it's like it's there, you know, and
(33:38):
that again it bothers me in the sense of a
baseline level of it, but it's not like, oh, I
can't listen to this, so it's you know. So this
to me is like just a much more extreme version
version of that, where it's like, Okay, there's nothing in
this for me to even grasp onto or like listen to.
And then like I'm thinking back about just like Okay,
(33:59):
say his thing after Katrina talking about George Bush.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
George Bush doesn't care about black people.
Speaker 6 (34:04):
It seems like he's trying to harness that sort of thing,
like the attention he gets from that sort of stuff,
m that provocation, and then is now just like rolling it.
And then with the Jewish stuff, now it's like, well
you see that more, you know, you go on X,
you see that stuff. So I'm sure it's it's partly
he's seeing, you know, in these guys he has around him,
Nick Flantes or wherever, you know, feeding this or like,
(34:24):
and then anytime something bad happens, he can say, well,
you know, the Jews did this, Yeah, and it's like
it's a self fulfilling prophecy of like I lost my
ideal a dud this because I did this, which proves
right I was right.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (34:38):
So it's it's more just like it's just sad. I mean,
it doesn't it's like I don't care what this guy
has to think about anything really in there. I don't
think he's really that influential to anyone except for maybe
some like fourteen year olds who are really into his music.
Hopefully they don't become president, I guess, But like, I
don't know, it's the whole thing's just kind of sad.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
I don't.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
I don't put even much credence.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
But you don't put much weight behind it.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Me.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
It's like, I hear what you're saying. I think he's
definitely lost a lot of his relevance and he's not
obviously as big as he once was. But to me,
it is shocking he is still as big as he
is today. It is shocking that people are still going
to you know, these shows. You know, he's touring overseas
and like China and Korea and like selling out stadiums and.
Speaker 6 (35:21):
The like the Swastika T shirts and stuff like they so, yeah,
it's like it's disturbing. I guess I see it more
of like that's just one piece of this broader weird
point we're out culturally, it's not just Yeah, So I
think that's it's like sad that that's the case.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I think there's something too though, that the Kanye Co
signing and stuff gives people permission. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:43):
Yeah, because those kids buying the Swastka shirts wouldn't be
buying it from Info Wars or you know whoever. They
want it because it's him and he's the cool rapper guy. Yeah,
not some political twitch streamer.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
The other layer to this, I think is that in
terms of his relevant see, like the music started sucking.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, I guess that also made it a lot easier
for you.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
I think that's how I feel too, which is sad
to say, but yeah, right, And I think that has
played a huge role in this conversation about his relevancy, because,
as we know, there are some artists who do horrible
things that the music is just so good or good
enough that we look past it, like as a society
and like, this is clearly not what was happening with
(36:27):
Kanye West.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
All Right, Noah is leaving us. He'll be out of town,
but me and Manny are going to go see the
new documentary called in Whose Name that's supposed to show
Kanye in a whole new light.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Good life sounds good. I'm Manny and we're back. Noah's
not here with us today. We kicked him out of
the rest of this conversation.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
He's out of town. Yeah, but we did earlier this
week travel down to Regal Union Square and to see
the new Kanye documentary. I'm off my madge for five
months down.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Your personality is not like this a few years ago is.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
A calling by the universe, never kaill me. I'm gonna
wake up one day and have nothing. We could talk
about that later, but it ain't no butk So this
documentary is titled in Whose Name, and it's made by
this director named Nico Ballasteros, who started filming with Kanye
in twenty sixteen when he was only eighteen years old.
(37:35):
He continued filming with Kanye for the next six years,
capturing more than three thousand hours of footage. But the
interesting thing is Kanye never actually paid Nico, so he
owns all of the footage. So Nico was able to
get final cut on his film. He released it independently.
Kanye didn't have any involvement with the making of it,
(37:57):
but he did text Nico that doc was very deep.
It was like being dead and looking back on my life.
So he seems to have enjoyed what Nico has put together.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
We're coming at this movie from the standpoint of two
guys who were huge Kanye West fans and are no
longer Kanye West fans due to his own actions, and so,
to be fair to the documentary, it was an uphill
battle to impress me right. Like everything happening in the documentary,
I was.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Like, yeah, we went in with a bias against Kanye.
That's a good flag. But let's quickly let's talk about
the crowd that was there, because the data was relatively full.
Most of the people there were looked or seemed to
be Kanye fans. There were people wearing like I saw
a kid wearing like late registration shirt. They're like hype beasts,
you know. And these people showed up seemingly because they
(38:55):
like Kanye West.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
Yeah, there were maybe us and one or two other
people I could recall who were there watching it because
of the spectacle.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yeah. Yes.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
What's your kind of general review of the the.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Filmmaking of it, or of my perception of Kanye after
seeing it.
Speaker 4 (39:12):
How the movie itself, Like, what did you think the
movie did well? What do you think it did bad?
Because I have thoughts on this.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah, I think the movie itself in terms of like
the filmmaking, it's always interesting to see any behind the
scenes of anything to some degree, right, And I thought
that was the strongest part of the movie, is like
you're seeing obviously we've seen from the outside these sort
of big moments in Kanye's life during that time period,
and to see somebody in between behind the scenes, never
(39:39):
before seen footage is interesting. Mm hm. I do like
that there wasn't narration. I do like that they didn't
have sit down interviews. Yeah. I thought my biggest issue
with this film was that you can tell that someone
who hasn't done this before was making it.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Hm.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
The pacing and the movie is all over the place.
And it's funny because at the end of the movie,
Kanye sort of makes a joke about like, people are
gonna watch this documentary and they're gonna think it's just
you know, rant to rant, antics to antics, that there's
no through line, but they're missing like that this is
like actually so deep blah blah blah. And I was like, actually, no,
(40:22):
this is the issue with this doc is that there
is no through line. I don't think that the documentary
makes Kanye look good at all, No, no, But I
do think there are worse things that Nico film that
were not in this film. Mmm, especially around comments on yes,
Jewish people. Yeah, he says basically nothing in this film
(40:47):
about Hitler or Jewish people. He says like, I can't
say Hitler, but they cut around a lot of stuff
that we know through reporting Kanye has said.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
And and you know they skipped him going on out
Alex Jones. Yep, they skipped his antics with Nick Flentises,
who's now in the news again, because you know, not
for this episode, but like, and yeah, it's a good point.
Kanye West doesn't come out looking that great. But but
you could tell that the filmmaker, I think wanted him to,
(41:17):
or at least wanted you to feel like it's it's deeper,
it's more nuanced than it was on the surface, when
I don't think it is that much.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Well, it's funny you mentioned Nick Flentis, because who does
show up repeatedly throughout this is Candice Owens. And then
there's even a random scene he doesn't really talk, but
Charlie Kirk is in it.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
Charlie Kirk is in that. Yeah, I forgot about that.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
And I think, look, I think it's understandable that this,
you know, this is a kid who looked up to
Kanye was a teenager when he started working with Kanye, right.
The reason he wanted to work with him is because
he was a fan of him. So it makes sense
that that person would not make like a hip piece
of a doc or would feel protective to some degree
about what he allows in the film versus what he
(41:58):
doesn't allow the film. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
Yeah, and I agree with you generally that there was
some level of cultural value I think in seeing some
of some of those behind the scenes moments. But I
think I just came away being like, well, what was
kind of the what was the point of that? Ye? Like,
what what did I learn? Really?
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (42:18):
Well?
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah, what do you feel like do you feel like
you have a better understanding of Kanye West as a
person or his mental state after seeing the doc? I
will say I felt like in the you know part one,
we kind of glossed over this a bit. But what's
obviously a major point of this doc is it starts
with Kanye talking about this film is about you know,
(42:38):
mental health. But yeah, do you feel like outside of that,
do you feel like there were any things that you
were like, Oh, actually, I didn't think about it in
such a nuanced way. Kanye is actually operating on a
different level or something, or I have a deeper understanding
of who he is as a person.
Speaker 4 (42:55):
After watching it, they kept revisiting the idea that this
is a film about mental health. I didn't really feel
like that, No, it wasn't really about mental health beyond
the fact that his family members are scared for him
and they want him to get back on medicine.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Yeah, I would rather be dead, not in jail, because
I'd rather be dead this is on medication.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
I didn't feel like I learned all that much, and
I also felt that, you know, not to be a
film nerd, but like the purpose of a documentary is
to I think in some cases show a subject in
full vulnerable, and the idea that you would skip some
controversial parts of that person's life to save face. I
(43:43):
don't know why, it just it cheapens the point of
the movie.
Speaker 7 (43:46):
For me.
Speaker 4 (43:46):
What I was surprised at is when I went online
and looked at some reviews, there seemed to be like
decently big name critics who liked the movie, and I
was surprised by that.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Well, I think it's also you're comparing it to you
know what the other celebrity documentaries are right now, which
is basically a celebrity making like a promo for their
you know album you know, And so in that way
it is. Yeah, it's like I said, it's not flattering
to Kanye despite it cutting out some of those more
controversial things, like he's repeatedly throughout this film screaming mostly
(44:23):
at women, like throwing tantrums like a kid. I thought
it's pretty telling too. Throughout the film who Kanye freaks
out on?
Speaker 4 (44:29):
Yeah, Oh my god. Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
It's always the women in his life. It's Kim, it's
Chris Jenner, it's his cousin, who's a woman.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
What was so striking to me being in a theater
was how often people were laughing. Yeah, at points where
we were not. The movie is not funny, you know.
There are very little jokes, if any jokes at all throughout,
and people were giggling and laughing a of times about
the absurdity of it a lot of time about like
(45:03):
how ridiculous Kanye looks. At one point towards the end
of the film, when Kanye's working on his album Donda,
he gets upset with the people in the room because
they're laughing about something that he said or did.
Speaker 4 (45:19):
Yeah, the guy that.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Most implemental artists of twenty motherfuckering years acts, they got
a most important.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
Artist in human history? Acts?
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Is that a motherfucking game man, No fucking chuckling and
nothing and nothing no kind of ways. And it was
so funny to me because I was like, Oh, we've
just spent an hour and a half in a theater
watching you, Like these are your fans watching you and
laughing at you the entire time, and now in real
life we're seeing you're also dealing with that. I felt
(45:48):
like it just sort of like solidified a lot of
my thoughts about him, Like he's so deeply insecure. Yeah,
it's this whole film is like someone trying to convinced
themselves of their greatness almost to some degree, and being
so afraid of how they're being perceived by other people.
Through this, the entire documentary is sort of like he's
(46:14):
grappling with how he's being perceived by the outside world,
which is so interesting because Kanye's whole thing is I
don't care what people think. Yeah, and time and time again,
he just contradicts himself by caring about what other people think.
There's one big scene that's been all over the place
already is a clip of him yelling at Chris Jenner,
(46:34):
I'm a family has said any responsibility from my hospital visits,
but if we want to go online, that's fifty percent
of what people say at least or maybe in my line.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
It doesn't matter my line then that it matters to
us and you it doesn't matter what the inner and
that says, it matters what we think. Yay, So what
do you say?
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Did you have an effect on my mentor yes?
Speaker 3 (47:08):
Yes, I'm saying yes, and I love you.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
I love you. I don't want you to be.
Speaker 9 (47:16):
Not perfect.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
I love you and I want my daughter to love
you the way you want or love you.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
And I was like, why do you care what people
online are saying about who caused you, know, like you
to feel the way that you feel.
Speaker 4 (47:32):
He likes to pretend that yeah, yes, normal to care
about this, Yes, but it's his whole identity that he does.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
That he doesn't care. What does doctor do a good
job for me? Of showcasing was like what happens if
an adult is never held accountable? Mm hmm, like time
and time again, It's like, this is like if a
five year old had unlimited resources, right, Like he's constantly screaming,
like came at one point is like you're not always
(48:01):
going to get your way. I don't always get my
way and like that's just life, right. She talks to
him throughout this film as if he's one of her kids.
I don't know if you noticed this this very little
music in this film, Yeah, if at all. The small
amount of music is kind of in the like prologue
before like Nico actually starts filming with him. But it's
(48:24):
one of those things where you know, I don't know
if it was a rights issue or whatever it maybe
I didn't feel like I missed the music in this
which I think is pretty telling about what his career
has been as of late. Right, It's like, how do
you make a nearly two hour documentary about Kanye West
and play nearly no Kanye West music? You make it
about this timebeard where none of the antics feel related
(48:46):
at all to the music. This dot came out only
a few years after Netflix did like a three part
doc as well.
Speaker 4 (48:52):
Which was more It was kind of weird how it
lined up because that kind of ended around the time
the Nika footage started.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Exactly, so this kind of picks up where that left off.
But it's telling in that you know that starts from
Kanye's very very beginning, and the first two parts of
that are so music heavy. Oh yeah, it's so much
about like the creation of those albums in the process,
because that was the story in the beginning.
Speaker 4 (49:15):
Yeah, it was important, I think to show what why
we all thought he was a genius.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Yes, and that and that and that doc. You know,
you know, you talk about how and it's doc. We're
waiting for the oh, he's a genius moments and we
just don't give him and that doc we get those moments.
Speaker 4 (49:30):
Because the genius in that documentary speaks for itself. Yes,
it's not Kanye what's telling.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Your exactly You're watching him with the choir being like, oh,
don't do it that.
Speaker 4 (49:39):
Way, do it this way, all these little meticulous, nuanced
things he's doing in the studio to make something sound
one percent better.
Speaker 7 (49:47):
Yeah, for the first time, and then brough home on
the second half the course and like separated.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Like you said, I.
Speaker 4 (50:13):
Think one of the one of the most tragic parts
of the documentary, which isn't something they point out at all.
I think it's just something I noticed, is that from
the beginning of the documentary to the end, you just
see the entourage shrivel up and shrink into just the
camera guy. Like at the beginning there's like twenty people
(50:34):
around him, at all times, and then it slowly gets
lower and lower and lower. By the end, it's just
him and the camera guy and Niko, and you know
it's because of his own actions. And I think halfway
through the film, Kim Kardashian says something like that, like
everyone around you, they're telling me privately that they don't
know how to deal with this. They're they're they're not
(50:54):
supporting you anymore, and they're gonna leave you. And then
he's in the car like who said that, like kind
of ignoring the point.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Yeah, and uh yeah.
Speaker 4 (51:02):
By the end, there's literally nobody.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
There, and I think, look, you know, there's like that
James Baldwin quote of like the world is held together
by the actions of a very small group of people.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
The world is held together. Really it is hell together,
but the love and the national very few people. Otherwise,
of course, you can despair. Walk down the street to
any city any afternoon and look around you. What you
gotta remember is what you're looking at is also you.
(51:36):
Everyone you're looking at is also you. You could be
that person, you could be that monster, you could be
that cop, and here to decide on yourself not to be.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
There's bits of Kanye and all of us, right, obviously
not to the degree of like we're gonna be streaming
into our own tantrums, but like we can act really
small over something that is inconsequential on like go from
zero to one hundred, and I think, you know, so
much of life is trying not to be that person.
But it's so easy to be that person at the
same time, right, Like it's like it's hard to actually
(52:15):
put into work.
Speaker 4 (52:16):
There was a there's a line towards the end, a
little nugget of self reflection from him, but then he
immediately backtracks on it. So at towards the end, he's
like he's reflecting about his career the past few years,
and he's like, wait a second, should I have blown
up this this Adidas thing? What was what was this
all for? And then there's like a beat of a
(52:40):
few seconds and then you're like, oh nice, and then
he's like and the answer has to be yes, And
then it's like, all right, we can roll the credit.
It's like I'm kind of done here.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
Thing.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Wow, what a journey. If you want to see the
reason why Kanye got me suspended in high school, follow
us on Instagram. No such thing that show. I'm gonna
upload a clip this week. No Such Thing is a
reduction of kaladoscope content. Our executive producers or Kate Osborne
and Mangesh how to catur The show was created by
(53:20):
Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman and Me Devin Joseph. Theme in
credit song by Manny. Mixing for this episode by Steve
bone Head. Over to No Such Thing That Show. To
subscribe to our newsletter. If you have feedback for us,
you can email us at Manny Noah devinat gmail dot com,
or if you've got a question, call us at the
(53:43):
voicemail number in our show notes. We're off next week.
We'll see you the week after next.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
No Such Thing
Hello Roger, yah yo yo. All right, well, I need
you to make an announcement for the podcast. You know,
we got nominated for two Signal Awards. Okay, we got
Best Buddy Podcasts and then we got Activism, Public Service
(00:24):
and Social Impact for our episode of Online Pedophile Hunters.
So you gotta tell the people, go vote, vote.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
So what I gotta say, just say tell him right now,
say go vote. Go to the Signal Awards. We got
a link in the show notes. Go ahead again, everybody,
go vote. Already heard my brother say, go vote. Good awards.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Go vote.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
All right, I'm gonna put that at the start of
the episode. All right, Manny, and this is Devin and
this is no such thing to show we set our
dumb arguments in your by actually doing the research on
today's episode. Why we miss the old Kanye.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
No, there's no no such thing.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
No touch thank no touch thank touch thank touch thank.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Yeah. This is Its been a lot since I've seen
a lot of this stuff, so it was fun going through.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
I almost don't want to be taken back to these
to this era.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
I feel like this is like an alcoholics anonymous meeting.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Uh do not like this.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
My name is Devin, and I want to confess to
being I was a pretty big Kanye fan. Sure, I'm
just gonna admit it. I mean, I'm just gonna say it.
I'm gonna put it on Mike. Uh. You all were
Kanye fans growing up?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Huge, And you guys knew I was a Kanye fan. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
Probably when I first met you. I remember how much
you liked Kanye West. That's one that's one thing that
sticks out at the time.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would say when I met y'all,
I feel like I had sort of honed it in
a bit probably.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
You know when you talk to someone and you can
tell they're really into something, but they're also trying not
to let that show. I remember once one conversation we
had about like the set pieces during the was it
the Glow and the Dark tour? Yeah, And you just
had all of this knowledge about it and then kind
of like towards the end, just caught yourself and like,
(02:41):
yeah it was cool, and I was like, oh, this
guy's a fan.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yeah. Yeah, I was in deep out. Let me put
it this way. I don't think I will ever be
into anything as much as I was into Kanye West.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
You know, it's hard, I think, especially just as you
get older, it's hard to.
Speaker 6 (02:56):
Get that excitement about anything, even if you're still doing
deep dives onto artist and stuff.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
It's exactly So here's the thing. If you've been listening
to the show, you know that we usually bring in experts,
but for this episode we already experts for over a
decade being a Kanye fan, which is just such a
(03:23):
major part of who I was as a person. So
much of my taste, the way I dress, the music
I listened to, the movies I love, so much of
that is it was because of Kanye. If we were friends, you,
through osmosis would eventually become a Kanye fan. I remember
(03:44):
this one time I was driving my younger brother and
we were listening to Kanye's VH one Storytellers, and he
was going on this rant about not reading. I think
I saw on a movie. I get my quotes from
movies because I don't read. And my brother had just
(04:04):
started he was just at the age where he would
start to actually listen to the words on the radio.
And he turned to me and he said, Devin, you're
not supposed to say that, like why are you saying that, Evin,
like reading is good? And it was one of those
moments where it was just made explicitly clear just how
blurred the lines had become my own brother, not even
(04:29):
recognizing that the person on the radio wasn't me, Which
brings us to today's episode, which is, like, what do
you do when someone you look up to, someone who's
become such a major part of your life, turns out
to be a self proclaimed nazi? Must to release of
(04:50):
this new documentary about him now more than ever felt
like the time for us to like truly reckon for
Kanye fandom and talk through what do we do with
a man who, in many ways we can no longer
recognize and why more importantly, did we let him get
(05:11):
away with so much for so long? When you're heartbroken
in such a dramatic way, when you go all in
on someone like I went in on Kanye, it is
really tough when Kanye becomes Kanye and then you're like, oh,
(05:34):
I'm stuck, you know. So now I feel like with
like artists or anything, I have like a little bit
of a distance of like, oh this is cool, but
like I'm not going to give my life.
Speaker 5 (05:43):
Over to you, Yeah, I can't make this me exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I need a separation.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Yeah, And just to add on to that analogy, if
it's for analogizing it like a relationship. He also didn't
do like one thing that was like all right, I'm
done and I'm heartbroken. It was like we kind of
broke up with him, got back together like that kind
of a toxic relationship until finally we were like all.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Right, until there was that hard, hard breakup to My
relationship with Kanye started with the College Dropout. Obviously, Jesus
Walks was playing on the radio everywhere. I have a
(06:29):
very core memory of being in a car with like
my aunt and Jesus Walks is playing and she's like, wow,
that's crazy. You know, he's wrapping about Jesus on the radio.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Jesus.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
So he'd go my single dog radio niece.
Speaker 7 (06:41):
Then they say, you can remember about anything except for Jesus,
Me's Gone Sex Lives video team.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
But if I talk about Guy, my record won't get played.
And my dad didn't remember this, but he actually bought
the College Dropout and I was back when I still
had a CD player walkman, you know that was the
time in like fifties, peak. The Gangster rap was very
much in I love the fifty album. Uh, the Beach
(07:09):
were incredible to the music was good, but like I wasn't
relating to the lyrics. It's like it was like movie stuff.
You know, It's like, oh yeah, shot nine times whatever,
God up. And Kanye was obviously his big thing was
he's playing us like the foil to that. And so
you know, most of this album is like very musical
(07:32):
and like connected with me right away. But to this day,
I think this song right here, it's underrated and underappreciated.
Your son he made the team this year. This is
family business. Uh, Kanye raps about you know, growing up
(07:52):
in his family, his cousin being in jail.
Speaker 7 (07:58):
This is family business. And it's just for a family
that can't be with us. And it's just for my
cousin lockdown or the answers, and it's just why I
fitted in my song.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
So sweet, like sharing the bed with his cousins. Which
we'll go back to having a meeting today, right like
you ain't took a band, but your cousin fit three
in the bid.
Speaker 7 (08:18):
If it's sixty, you'll I'm talking about three by the
head and three by the leg, but you ain't have
to tell my girl like used.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
To in the bid like beautiful soul sample, damn still here.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
Oh yeah. It's it's also such an indication of how
incredible the production was. Like those early Kanye West like
kick drums and snares are so identifiable if you hear
them in songs today, you're like, oh yeah, so he
just had like such a distinct identity at the time.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
And out the gate, you know, it's the first album.
It's crazy that, like, you know, especially for someone who
came in a game as a producer, people are telling like,
you can't wrap to come in and have like this
album that feels so fully formed. And then you know,
there's the music, and then there's also the other aspect
(09:11):
of it, which is he's coming as this foil of
like this other sort of version of like what black
masculine and he can be. You know. In two thousand
and five, he's doing an interview with Sway on MTV
when MTV Cared about music, and he's talking about like
homophobia and hip hop in two thousand and five, which
(09:32):
is is just crazy.
Speaker 8 (09:33):
It's like I would really discriminate, like I use the
word fat fact, fact fact, like always a condescendant towards
gaze and look and look down upon gays. And I'm
and my cousin told me that another one of my
cousins was gay. And at that point, it's kind of
(09:53):
when the turning point where I was like, yo, yo,
this is my cousin.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
I I love him, Like.
Speaker 8 (10:01):
I've been discriminating against gays. It's like, do I discriminate
against my cousin. I wanted just to just come on
TV and just tell my rappers, just tell my friends, like, yo,
stop it famm like, like seriously that that's really discrimination.
(10:23):
To me, that's exactly what they used to do to
black people. I'm just trying to tell people just stop all.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
That listening to this. This was like the first artist
where I was like, oh, like I can connect.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Yeah, And I think he had a background too that
was a lot more relatable to the average person, Like
he didn't like he made a point to say this
in some of the songs back then that he didn't
have like that crazy of a childhood as like some
of other rappers did, and had kind of like a
more closer to like a suburban like kind of nice upbringing,
(10:55):
not rich, but like not in not very poor, like yeah,
just like it just felt like this is a more
accessible artist I think.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah, exactly. So over my last time, I've seen Kanye
perform eleven times live. The first concert I've ever been
to was the Glone and the Dark tour. And speaking
of Kanye performing, this is really embarrassing. Okay, this is
gonna be a tough one to show. So when I
(11:28):
was in high school, right, you know how they would
be talent shows we have, and it kind of became
a thing that every school like variety show or singing
competition and to come out and perform as Kanye. So
I will play a snippet of this. All right, We're
(11:51):
not going to watch very much of this.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
They're screaming, wow, oh got the moves.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Shades of course, so your.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
Body language like you've got the moves.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
So yeah, that's you know, that's all to say. I
was a pretty big Kanye fan, uh, you know, especially
in high school and as a Kanye fan, and we
have our oh come get your boy moments, uh, the
first big one obviously being Taylor Swift at the VMA's
(12:40):
gon Taylor, I'm really happy for you. I'll let you finish.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
But Beyonce had one of.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
The best videos of all time, one of the best videos.
Speaker 9 (12:52):
Of all time.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Do you remember where you were when Yep, when he
when he did that, I.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Was in my parents' basement because that's where like watch
the Baby Baby. It was yeah, for like the for
me and my siblings, and I just remember that being
kind of like the first moment on the Internet that
I can remember that everyone was talking about or like, yes,
(13:27):
that that felt like wow. Everyone was went straight to
Facebook after that and we talked about it for like hours.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yes, yeah, I remember I was in my room watching
it and it was a thing where Tyrriler won and
I just sort of like I wasn't really paying attention
and then I look up and then Kanye is on stage.
And then obviously at the time, everybody knows me as
the Kanye guy, so everyone just when you were right
on people's walls, and I had, like I had like
make a public statement.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
About it, press conference, press stop.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I was like, oh, oh, yeah, don't condone is it
was funny, but you know, he obviously he shouldn't have
done that. And then the next day he appears on
jay Leno. When did it strike you.
Speaker 9 (14:11):
Uh, like as soon as I gave the mic back
to her and then she didn't keep going.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
I'm let me ask him.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I was fortunate enough to meet your mom and talk
with your mom a number of years ago. Uh, what
do you think she would have said about this?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Would she be disappointed in this? Would he give you
a lecture?
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (14:51):
You know obviously, you know I deal with her, and
you know so many you know, celebrities, they never take
the time off, and I've never taken the time off
to really you know. I just music after music, and
to a tour and tour, and now I just a
shame that my hurt calls you know, someone else's hurt.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
I remember being so deep in my Kanye's like fandom
at that point that I was like, boom, we've got
our talking points. He was upset because his mother passed
away recently. That's why he acted out. Everyone should feel
shamed for like dunking or like dogging on him, dog
piling on him. After what happened, It's so funny watching
(15:33):
that this many years later, like that event, the interrupting
of someone during her acceptance speech would not cause nearly
as much drama. I think as it did back then,
especially with like you know, the optics of like a
rapper interrupting a country. I guess she was kind of
(15:53):
more country back then the race was like the racial
undertones to it and stuff like. But to day and
like how absurd everything we consume is today, Like we
would be like lol, like that, you wouldn't be doing
an apology tour.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
We literally like disappeared after this, yeah, right, Like he
went away for a while, went to Hawaii, worked on
the next album, and then one year later we're back
at the VMAs. Taylor Swift performs her song Innocent, which
is about the Kanye incident.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
I was analyzing these lyrics, like what is she saying
about him?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
And that was the same night that Kanye had his comeback,
So we got this moment classic yeah, you know, we
got the white stage, Kanye comes out in the red suit.
Speaker 4 (16:57):
Way better.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Come on, He's at the NPC.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
And this was the premiere of the song. If I recall,
no one heard.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
This, No one had heard this. This is really peak era.
Speaker 5 (17:12):
And then the Good Friday, Oh yeah, nothing compared.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
Best run Away. And I just remember because this was
(17:41):
the last performance of the night. Oh yeah, And I
remember it being like, Okay, Kanye fans were back on top.
You know, we took we took a step back. Maybe
you know, he made some mistakes, but like people were
kind of over the tailor thing. The music was good again,
and and like you know, at the end of the day,
(18:03):
like interrupting someone in an award show maybe not the
worst thing. I think things kind of got put in perspective. Yeah,
you know, a year after, I'm just sort of like,
what are we doing here? And as all helps when
you make, you know, some of the best music of your.
Speaker 5 (18:17):
Career, it's mutually beneficial to both parties this way, Like clearly.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
It did feel like we were like part of some
kind of a clan. Yes, like that, We're just like, oh,
our leader did it?
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yes, like he pulled it off. We won. Yes. Yeah,
I will say this. I do think there's an incident
that led to the downfall of Kanye shortly after this. Yeah,
and I think it has nothing to do with Taylor Swift.
After the break, Kanye starts to unravel and our fandom
(18:48):
is put to the test. I think for me, the
real unraveling of Kanye happened after Kim got robbed right now.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
We're going to get that breaking news overnight.
Speaker 9 (19:05):
Kim Kardashian wes robbed at gunpoint in Paris.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Her husband Kanye ended his concert right in the middle
of a song when he got the.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Word do you remember this? Yeah, So I was actually
at the show. I do remember you being there.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
Yeah, you're the Forest Company.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah you're Kanye to me, this this was like the
moment where Kanye like it felt like you sort of
hit this peak he had control of you know, he's
on top of the world and felt like that Kim
being robbed, it was like something was outside of his control, right,
(19:43):
and we started to see him I think lash out
new ways post that influences the King of the human being,
don't with me, with me, don't with me. But you know,
we were still all aboard.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
You know.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
It was like music was good. The music was still good.
Right after this, we got The Life of Pablo, which
me and Noah were at the listening party premiere of
that fashion whatever it was. It was like a fashion
show and premiere at MSG. It was very cool, and
that's when we got our first listen of Famous. Oh
(20:25):
yeah fall my South sad niggas that know me best.
I feel like me and Taylor might still have sex.
Why I made that bitch famous. God, dude, I made
that bitch famous. And I remember the time being like,
oh God, here we go again, you know, as we're there.
But then truly after he's like, hey, guys, actually I
(20:46):
talked to Taylor about it. It's fine. She signed off
on it. She actually gave me the idea for it.
I was like, I don't know about that.
Speaker 9 (20:57):
Taylor's team responded, saying that they were not aware of
the actual lyrics, but I've warned Kanye about releasing that song.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Kim then defends Kanye in a GQ article, saying he
did speak to Tailor on the phone, and then leaks
parts of their conversation on Snapchat for on my South
Side niggas that know me best. I feel like me
and Taylor might still have sex.
Speaker 9 (21:21):
Like give a fuck about It's just you as a
person and as a friend.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
I want things that make you feel good.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, I mean, go whatever line better and bobbing through
a very tongue in.
Speaker 5 (21:32):
Cheeks either way.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, And I really appreciate you telling me about it.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
That's really nice. Taylor then responds saying she didn't know
that Kanye was gonna call her a bit specifically. But
at the time, once again, Kanye fans were like, hey,
We're hey.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
He All we needed was ever, all we needed was
one little piece of evidence that could be spun in
to a defense. That's it exactly. And I guess Taylor
Swift is a lying scumbag and I never want to
hear people.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
You know, Snake the famous video was the first moment
where I was like, Okay, Kanye did something and there's
no defending it.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
You remember, it's like, isn't it Like it's like essentially
Madame Tussaud wax figures of celebrities in bed with him.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yes, we got Anna Winter.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Is that Trump?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Donald Trump?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (22:39):
My god, Rihanna? Who is next to Chris Brown? Taylor Swift?
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Oh no, this is really bad.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, there's Kanye obviously, and is that a figure is
to him? No, it's these are all They're like wax
figures laying in bed. There's Ray j oh the Amber Rose,
his ex girlfriend. There's Caitlyn Jenner, Bill Cosby, Jesus Christ,
and they're all positioned naked, laying in the bed. And
(23:13):
this film's kind of like a snuff video. Yeah, and
the thing that you know, obviously there's a lot of
things wrong with this video, one of which is like
he depicts all of these women as you know, naked.
He didn't get approval from any of these women ahead
of doing this. Taylor Swift is topless, they got you know,
Rian is in amber Rose are topless, and.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
And even in the story of the video, it's without
consent really like he's just in the room. It looks
like he's not supposed.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
To be there.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
In the film, it's like, oh, this is like these
people are sleeping and I snuck in and I'm filming it. Obviously,
Taylor Swift was not happy about this. Yeah, rightfully. So
this is like one of the first Kanye things where
I was like, actually, there's no spin to this, you
(24:06):
can't defend this. And it felt like, dude, you like
had a win, like just take it and like leave
it alone. And it just felt like vindictive. It wasn't
creative to me at all, Like it didn't feel like art.
It just felt like something to like get a reaction
out of people.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
Yeah, I remember feeling like it was done strictly to
shock you m M. Versus for any other like kind
of meaningful reason. Yeah, not that it needs to be. Yeah, yeah,
this was supposed to make you go, what the fuck?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Sometimes art is provocative and it makes you uncomfortable, but
there's like a point to it, and this just felt like, Oh, Taylor,
you want to be an asshole about the song, Well,
I'm gonna put naked in a video and you're not
going to have any say, which is really kind of
fucked up. To recap the Kanye raveling, we have Kim
(24:58):
getting robbed in Harris, then he got the famous video
shortly after that. In November of twenty sixteen, right after
Trump wins the election, Kanye goes on a rant in
Sacramento for twenty minutes saying he would have voted for Trump.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
Voted Trump.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
So in the end tour early Kanye gets hospitalized at
the time, and they say it's because he's exhausted. Now,
it's been reported that Kanye has since been rushed to
this hospital in La. It's after police were cooled to
a medical emergency. It's believed the start is suffering from
severe sleep deprivation and exhaustion. Later they say he's diagnosed
(25:42):
with bipolar disorder, and then Shortly after that, he appears
at Trump Tower. Kanye has died his era blond, which
is funny because they're standing next to Trump with the
bond here and he's sort of just posed next to Trump.
Speaker 5 (25:55):
Just friends, just friends, and it's a good man.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Well a long time.
Speaker 9 (26:01):
We've been friends for a long.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Time ago, and I remember at the time being like,
all right, we'll give him a pass. He went through
sort of a mental health episode, you know, so the
Trump stuff at the concert, that's okay, yeah, I remember this,
all right, maybe we'll give him a pass for this.
There everybody was kind of doing a version of this.
Dave Chappelle was on SNL saying give Trump a chance,
(26:25):
you know, like everyone was like, let's see how this
plays out. And then shortly after this, we get the
infamous TMZ slavery this choice moment, right, and it was
the sort of thing where we saw the headline and
we were like, you know, that seems really bad, but
(26:45):
like there's no way he could have possibly have said it.
And then we watched the club and it was actually
it was it got worse.
Speaker 9 (26:55):
When you hear about slavery for four hundred years, for
four hundred years, that sounded like a choice, like he
was there for four hundred years and it's all of y'all.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
And I remember, I, uh, this maybe one of my
most viral tweets because I tweeted out the Kanye clip
and you know, publicly declared. Talking about my public statements,
I was like, I'm done being a Kanye fan. I'm
not going to any more shows, I'm not buying any
more merch, like this is the line for me.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
At that point, I still stuck around a little bit
because I thought this might be some kind of perverse
version of album promotion, like he's always doing crazy kind
of antics right before an album is about to come out.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah, it's true, but I don't know. This time felt
different for me, and I was, you know, as we're
preparing to do this, I was like, why why? Because
I felt like if I was going to stop being
a fan of Kanye, it would be a more gradual thing,
wouldn't be just like a flip of switch, because he's
done stuff in the past that's obviously been problematic. Kanye
throughout his career has been accused of misogyny and you know,
(28:05):
the way he's talked about black women, like all that
sort of stuff. I feel like I've always made excuses
for that. There's this like justin Vernon quote from Navia
when he was working on Eases and they were like,
how could you work on an album like this where
he's saying like crazy stuff on that album, and justin
Vernon's like, well, he's like playing a character. It's like
America's right, And that was like the justification in my mind.
(28:26):
I'm like, oh, for all that other stuff, like he's
playing a character, but yeah, you know, this time it
felt different, And I think the obvious thing is like
I felt implicated this right, It's like, okay, you're talking
about black people that involves me. Yep, Like now I
feel like it's a problem because that other shit, like
it was bad, but it didn't really have to deal
with me. And this was also the time where black
(28:48):
people were getting the cops called on them like every
other day.
Speaker 4 (28:52):
It felt like there was a random news story the
year of the Karen. Yes, that's the breast of like
when people started calling.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
People, Yeah, that's when Karen became a thing. It was
Trump one point zero, right, So it was like black
people were also in this precarious position in the world
so then for this celebrity who I'm a big fan
of attacking black people at this time, especially because black
people had been in the past the main people defending
(29:20):
Kanye and his antics right and being like, hey, hey, hey,
leave our boy alone. It just felt like that was
different for some reason. So a lot happened after this.
I'll do a speed around just going through it. I
had to sort of re educate myself though, because I've
been a little out of the loop. But right after this,
(29:40):
they went to Wyoming and they released the seven Song albums.
Then he got religious and sorted his Sunday service. He
stopped cursing on his albums, released some gospel albums. He
ran for president in twenty twenty. I forgot all about that.
He received nearly sixty seven thousand votes in twelve states.
He started hanging out with some white nationalists Nick Quintes.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
They went and had dinner with Trump. Uh, and then
Trump got a lot of backlash for that.
Speaker 9 (30:08):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Right after that, he has the white.
Speaker 5 (30:11):
When Trump is getting back last for having dinner.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
With you.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Saying something.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
He made a white Lives Matter shirt. Shortly after that
was the He's gonna go deaf Con three on Jewish People,
and then he was on Alex Jones talking about praising Hitler,
and even Alex Jones was like, maybe you're going too far.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
He got dropped by Adidas releases a song about giving
his cousin head.
Speaker 4 (30:47):
And we remember this cousin from the first song he played.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
In the Family Business. You know, we have the beautiful
song about growing up with your cousins, and then we
nat today the cousin song is about giving your your
cousin had and then we have like a song called
hell Hitler where you can't even pretend that there is
(31:10):
some something other than let me shock people and get
people to change yeah Swasika T shirts. So I feel
like at this point Kanye has lost a lot of
relevance that he had before in terms of like good
music in art, and now the way he gets attention
(31:34):
is by just making a lot of noise. And that's
not to say I don't you know that he doesn't
believe the things that he is saying, But it's clear
to me that he is just trying to shock people
and he's he's out of ideas. It's what it reads
to me.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
Yeah, I and I wrote about this for MSNBC at
the time, where it's like, of course, the natural trajectory
for someone who can trying to shock, he was going
to be like, well, yeah, Hitler was good, like the
number one enemy of history.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (32:06):
Is that like that's the kind of the last stop
on the train of trying to SHOCKI So it makes sense. Yeah,
but it does feel desperate and sad and like when
he would do some of this crazy shit, and like
in the mid twenty tens or early twenty tens, it
felt like there was you could point to some nugget
of art artistry in it, but like, yeah, at this point,
(32:27):
it's like, so this is someone who is completely off
the rails.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
No, how how do you feel as a you know,
a Jewish Kanye fan. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:37):
I mean there's.
Speaker 6 (32:41):
Like a song like Hail Hitler, for example, I never
expected to be a song I would love.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
And like hearing it.
Speaker 5 (32:48):
It's not like I guess it's I try to think
about it in the context.
Speaker 6 (32:52):
Of other artists or other people, and like if I
was just approaching it as by itself, like just talking
about that one song, say, I'd be like in a vacuum, Yeah,
if it sounded really good, it's hard to say I
could look past it, but like if there was something
a little bit more to it, or like, Okay, this
is an interesting composition or something, it would disturb me
that this is the subject matter.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
But I could.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I could.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
Personally, I'd be able to listen.
Speaker 6 (33:16):
I could listen to pretty much like I certainly listened
to artists that I disagree with on things, whether it's
in their music or outside of it, Kanye being one
of them. There's other rappers who I think have anti
Semitic views. They're slightly more subtle about it. They'll subtle
like fair con or something, you know, and it's obviously
different timber, but it's like it's there, you know, and
(33:38):
that again it bothers me in the sense of a
baseline level of it, but it's not like, oh, I
can't listen to this, so it's you know. So this
to me is like just a much more extreme version
version of that, where it's like, Okay, there's nothing in
this for me to even grasp onto or like listen to.
And then like I'm thinking back about just like Okay,
(33:59):
say his thing after Katrina talking about George Bush.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
George Bush doesn't care about black people.
Speaker 6 (34:04):
It seems like he's trying to harness that sort of thing,
like the attention he gets from that sort of stuff,
m that provocation, and then is now just like rolling it.
And then with the Jewish stuff, now it's like, well
you see that more, you know, you go on X,
you see that stuff. So I'm sure it's it's partly
he's seeing, you know, in these guys he has around him,
Nick Flantes or wherever, you know, feeding this or like,
(34:24):
and then anytime something bad happens, he can say, well,
you know, the Jews did this, Yeah, and it's like
it's a self fulfilling prophecy of like I lost my
ideal a dud this because I did this, which proves
right I was right.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (34:38):
So it's it's more just like it's just sad. I mean,
it doesn't it's like I don't care what this guy
has to think about anything really in there. I don't
think he's really that influential to anyone except for maybe
some like fourteen year olds who are really into his music.
Hopefully they don't become president, I guess, But like, I
don't know, it's the whole thing's just kind of sad.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
I don't.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
I don't put even much credence.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
But you don't put much weight behind it.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Me.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
It's like, I hear what you're saying. I think he's
definitely lost a lot of his relevance and he's not
obviously as big as he once was. But to me,
it is shocking he is still as big as he
is today. It is shocking that people are still going
to you know, these shows. You know, he's touring overseas
and like China and Korea and like selling out stadiums and.
Speaker 6 (35:21):
The like the Swastika T shirts and stuff like they so, yeah,
it's like it's disturbing. I guess I see it more
of like that's just one piece of this broader weird
point we're out culturally, it's not just Yeah, So I
think that's it's like sad that that's the case.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
I think there's something too though, that the Kanye Co
signing and stuff gives people permission. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:43):
Yeah, because those kids buying the Swastka shirts wouldn't be
buying it from Info Wars or you know whoever. They
want it because it's him and he's the cool rapper guy. Yeah,
not some political twitch streamer.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
The other layer to this, I think is that in
terms of his relevant see, like the music started sucking.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, I guess that also made it a lot easier
for you.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
I think that's how I feel too, which is sad
to say, but yeah, right, And I think that has
played a huge role in this conversation about his relevancy, because,
as we know, there are some artists who do horrible
things that the music is just so good or good
enough that we look past it, like as a society
and like, this is clearly not what was happening with
(36:27):
Kanye West.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
All Right, Noah is leaving us. He'll be out of town,
but me and Manny are going to go see the
new documentary called in Whose Name that's supposed to show
Kanye in a whole new light.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Good life sounds good. I'm Manny and we're back. Noah's
not here with us today. We kicked him out of
the rest of this conversation.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
He's out of town. Yeah, but we did earlier this
week travel down to Regal Union Square and to see
the new Kanye documentary. I'm off my madge for five
months down.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Your personality is not like this a few years ago is.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
A calling by the universe, never kaill me. I'm gonna
wake up one day and have nothing. We could talk
about that later, but it ain't no butk So this
documentary is titled in Whose Name, and it's made by
this director named Nico Ballasteros, who started filming with Kanye
in twenty sixteen when he was only eighteen years old.
(37:35):
He continued filming with Kanye for the next six years,
capturing more than three thousand hours of footage. But the
interesting thing is Kanye never actually paid Nico, so he
owns all of the footage. So Nico was able to
get final cut on his film. He released it independently.
Kanye didn't have any involvement with the making of it,
(37:57):
but he did text Nico that doc was very deep.
It was like being dead and looking back on my life.
So he seems to have enjoyed what Nico has put together.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
We're coming at this movie from the standpoint of two
guys who were huge Kanye West fans and are no
longer Kanye West fans due to his own actions, and so,
to be fair to the documentary, it was an uphill
battle to impress me right. Like everything happening in the documentary,
I was.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Like, yeah, we went in with a bias against Kanye.
That's a good flag. But let's quickly let's talk about
the crowd that was there, because the data was relatively full.
Most of the people there were looked or seemed to
be Kanye fans. There were people wearing like I saw
a kid wearing like late registration shirt. They're like hype beasts,
you know. And these people showed up seemingly because they
(38:55):
like Kanye West.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
Yeah, there were maybe us and one or two other
people I could recall who were there watching it because
of the spectacle.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Yeah. Yes.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
What's your kind of general review of the the.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Filmmaking of it, or of my perception of Kanye after
seeing it.
Speaker 4 (39:12):
How the movie itself, Like, what did you think the
movie did well? What do you think it did bad?
Because I have thoughts on this.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah, I think the movie itself in terms of like
the filmmaking, it's always interesting to see any behind the
scenes of anything to some degree, right, And I thought
that was the strongest part of the movie, is like
you're seeing obviously we've seen from the outside these sort
of big moments in Kanye's life during that time period,
and to see somebody in between behind the scenes, never
(39:39):
before seen footage is interesting. Mm hm. I do like
that there wasn't narration. I do like that they didn't
have sit down interviews. Yeah. I thought my biggest issue
with this film was that you can tell that someone
who hasn't done this before was making it.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Hm.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
The pacing and the movie is all over the place.
And it's funny because at the end of the movie,
Kanye sort of makes a joke about like, people are
gonna watch this documentary and they're gonna think it's just
you know, rant to rant, antics to antics, that there's
no through line, but they're missing like that this is
like actually so deep blah blah blah. And I was like, actually, no,
(40:22):
this is the issue with this doc is that there
is no through line. I don't think that the documentary
makes Kanye look good at all, No, no, But I
do think there are worse things that Nico film that
were not in this film. Mmm, especially around comments on yes,
Jewish people. Yeah, he says basically nothing in this film
(40:47):
about Hitler or Jewish people. He says like, I can't
say Hitler, but they cut around a lot of stuff
that we know through reporting Kanye has said.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
And and you know they skipped him going on out
Alex Jones. Yep, they skipped his antics with Nick Flentises,
who's now in the news again, because you know, not
for this episode, but like, and yeah, it's a good point.
Kanye West doesn't come out looking that great. But but
you could tell that the filmmaker, I think wanted him to,
(41:17):
or at least wanted you to feel like it's it's deeper,
it's more nuanced than it was on the surface, when
I don't think it is that much.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Well, it's funny you mentioned Nick Flentis, because who does
show up repeatedly throughout this is Candice Owens. And then
there's even a random scene he doesn't really talk, but
Charlie Kirk is in it.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
Charlie Kirk is in that. Yeah, I forgot about that.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
And I think, look, I think it's understandable that this,
you know, this is a kid who looked up to
Kanye was a teenager when he started working with Kanye, right.
The reason he wanted to work with him is because
he was a fan of him. So it makes sense
that that person would not make like a hip piece
of a doc or would feel protective to some degree
about what he allows in the film versus what he
(41:58):
doesn't allow the film. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
Yeah, and I agree with you generally that there was
some level of cultural value I think in seeing some
of some of those behind the scenes moments. But I
think I just came away being like, well, what was
kind of the what was the point of that? Ye? Like,
what what did I learn? Really?
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (42:18):
Well?
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Yeah, what do you feel like do you feel like
you have a better understanding of Kanye West as a
person or his mental state after seeing the doc? I
will say I felt like in the you know part one,
we kind of glossed over this a bit. But what's
obviously a major point of this doc is it starts
with Kanye talking about this film is about you know,
(42:38):
mental health. But yeah, do you feel like outside of that,
do you feel like there were any things that you
were like, Oh, actually, I didn't think about it in
such a nuanced way. Kanye is actually operating on a
different level or something, or I have a deeper understanding
of who he is as a person.
Speaker 4 (42:55):
After watching it, they kept revisiting the idea that this
is a film about mental health. I didn't really feel
like that, No, it wasn't really about mental health beyond
the fact that his family members are scared for him
and they want him to get back on medicine.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Yeah, I would rather be dead, not in jail, because
I'd rather be dead this is on medication.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
I didn't feel like I learned all that much, and
I also felt that, you know, not to be a
film nerd, but like the purpose of a documentary is
to I think in some cases show a subject in
full vulnerable, and the idea that you would skip some
controversial parts of that person's life to save face. I
(43:43):
don't know why, it just it cheapens the point of
the movie.
Speaker 7 (43:46):
For me.
Speaker 4 (43:46):
What I was surprised at is when I went online
and looked at some reviews, there seemed to be like
decently big name critics who liked the movie, and I
was surprised by that.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Well, I think it's also you're comparing it to you
know what the other celebrity documentaries are right now, which
is basically a celebrity making like a promo for their
you know album you know, And so in that way
it is. Yeah, it's like I said, it's not flattering
to Kanye despite it cutting out some of those more
controversial things, like he's repeatedly throughout this film screaming mostly
(44:23):
at women, like throwing tantrums like a kid. I thought
it's pretty telling too. Throughout the film who Kanye freaks
out on?
Speaker 4 (44:29):
Yeah, Oh my god. Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
It's always the women in his life. It's Kim, it's
Chris Jenner, it's his cousin, who's a woman.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
What was so striking to me being in a theater
was how often people were laughing. Yeah, at points where
we were not. The movie is not funny, you know.
There are very little jokes, if any jokes at all throughout,
and people were giggling and laughing a of times about
the absurdity of it a lot of time about like
(45:03):
how ridiculous Kanye looks. At one point towards the end
of the film, when Kanye's working on his album Donda,
he gets upset with the people in the room because
they're laughing about something that he said or did.
Speaker 4 (45:19):
Yeah, the guy that.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Most implemental artists of twenty motherfuckering years acts, they got
a most important.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
Artist in human history? Acts?
Speaker 1 (45:26):
Is that a motherfucking game man, No fucking chuckling and
nothing and nothing no kind of ways. And it was
so funny to me because I was like, Oh, we've
just spent an hour and a half in a theater
watching you, Like these are your fans watching you and
laughing at you the entire time, and now in real
life we're seeing you're also dealing with that. I felt
(45:48):
like it just sort of like solidified a lot of
my thoughts about him, Like he's so deeply insecure. Yeah,
it's this whole film is like someone trying to convinced
themselves of their greatness almost to some degree, and being
so afraid of how they're being perceived by other people.
Through this, the entire documentary is sort of like he's
(46:14):
grappling with how he's being perceived by the outside world,
which is so interesting because Kanye's whole thing is I
don't care what people think. Yeah, and time and time again,
he just contradicts himself by caring about what other people think.
There's one big scene that's been all over the place
already is a clip of him yelling at Chris Jenner,
(46:34):
I'm a family has said any responsibility from my hospital visits,
but if we want to go online, that's fifty percent
of what people say at least or maybe in my line.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
It doesn't matter my line then that it matters to
us and you it doesn't matter what the inner and
that says, it matters what we think. Yay, So what
do you say?
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Did you have an effect on my mentor yes?
Speaker 3 (47:08):
Yes, I'm saying yes, and I love you.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
I love you. I don't want you to be.
Speaker 9 (47:16):
Not perfect.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
I love you and I want my daughter to love
you the way you want or love you.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
And I was like, why do you care what people
online are saying about who caused you, know, like you
to feel the way that you feel.
Speaker 4 (47:32):
He likes to pretend that yeah, yes, normal to care
about this, Yes, but it's his whole identity that he does.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
That he doesn't care. What does doctor do a good
job for me? Of showcasing was like what happens if
an adult is never held accountable? Mm hmm, like time
and time again, It's like, this is like if a
five year old had unlimited resources, right, Like he's constantly screaming,
like came at one point is like you're not always
(48:01):
going to get your way. I don't always get my
way and like that's just life, right. She talks to
him throughout this film as if he's one of her kids.
I don't know if you noticed this this very little
music in this film, Yeah, if at all. The small
amount of music is kind of in the like prologue
before like Nico actually starts filming with him. But it's
(48:24):
one of those things where you know, I don't know
if it was a rights issue or whatever it maybe
I didn't feel like I missed the music in this
which I think is pretty telling about what his career
has been as of late. Right, It's like, how do
you make a nearly two hour documentary about Kanye West
and play nearly no Kanye West music? You make it
about this timebeard where none of the antics feel related
(48:46):
at all to the music. This dot came out only
a few years after Netflix did like a three part
doc as well.
Speaker 4 (48:52):
Which was more It was kind of weird how it
lined up because that kind of ended around the time
the Nika footage started.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Exactly, so this kind of picks up where that left off.
But it's telling in that you know that starts from
Kanye's very very beginning, and the first two parts of
that are so music heavy. Oh yeah, it's so much
about like the creation of those albums in the process,
because that was the story in the beginning.
Speaker 4 (49:15):
Yeah, it was important, I think to show what why
we all thought he was a genius.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Yes, and that and that and that doc. You know,
you know, you talk about how and it's doc. We're
waiting for the oh, he's a genius moments and we
just don't give him and that doc we get those moments.
Speaker 4 (49:30):
Because the genius in that documentary speaks for itself. Yes,
it's not Kanye what's telling.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Your exactly You're watching him with the choir being like, oh,
don't do it that.
Speaker 4 (49:39):
Way, do it this way, all these little meticulous, nuanced
things he's doing in the studio to make something sound
one percent better.
Speaker 7 (49:47):
Yeah, for the first time, and then brough home on
the second half the course and like separated.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
Like you said, I.
Speaker 4 (50:13):
Think one of the one of the most tragic parts
of the documentary, which isn't something they point out at all.
I think it's just something I noticed, is that from
the beginning of the documentary to the end, you just
see the entourage shrivel up and shrink into just the
camera guy. Like at the beginning there's like twenty people
(50:34):
around him, at all times, and then it slowly gets
lower and lower and lower. By the end, it's just
him and the camera guy and Niko, and you know
it's because of his own actions. And I think halfway
through the film, Kim Kardashian says something like that, like
everyone around you, they're telling me privately that they don't
know how to deal with this. They're they're they're not
(50:54):
supporting you anymore, and they're gonna leave you. And then
he's in the car like who said that, like kind
of ignoring the point.
Speaker 1 (51:00):
Yeah, and uh yeah.
Speaker 4 (51:02):
By the end, there's literally nobody.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
There, and I think, look, you know, there's like that
James Baldwin quote of like the world is held together
by the actions of a very small group of people.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
The world is held together. Really it is hell together,
but the love and the national very few people. Otherwise,
of course, you can despair. Walk down the street to
any city any afternoon and look around you. What you
gotta remember is what you're looking at is also you.
(51:36):
Everyone you're looking at is also you. You could be
that person, you could be that monster, you could be
that cop, and here to decide on yourself not to be.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
There's bits of Kanye and all of us, right, obviously
not to the degree of like we're gonna be streaming
into our own tantrums, but like we can act really
small over something that is inconsequential on like go from
zero to one hundred, and I think, you know, so
much of life is trying not to be that person.
But it's so easy to be that person at the
same time, right, Like it's like it's hard to actually
(52:15):
put into work.
Speaker 4 (52:16):
There was a there's a line towards the end, a
little nugget of self reflection from him, but then he
immediately backtracks on it. So at towards the end, he's
like he's reflecting about his career the past few years,
and he's like, wait a second, should I have blown
up this this Adidas thing? What was what was this
all for? And then there's like a beat of a
(52:40):
few seconds and then you're like, oh nice, and then
he's like and the answer has to be yes, And
then it's like, all right, we can roll the credit.
It's like I'm kind of done here.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
Thing.
Speaker 1 (53:00):
Wow, what a journey. If you want to see the
reason why Kanye got me suspended in high school, follow
us on Instagram. No such thing that show. I'm gonna
upload a clip this week. No Such Thing is a
reduction of kaladoscope content. Our executive producers or Kate Osborne
and Mangesh how to catur The show was created by
(53:20):
Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman and Me Devin Joseph. Theme in
credit song by Manny. Mixing for this episode by Steve
bone Head. Over to No Such Thing That Show. To
subscribe to our newsletter. If you have feedback for us,
you can email us at Manny Noah devinat gmail dot com,
or if you've got a question, call us at the
(53:43):
voicemail number in our show notes. We're off next week.
We'll see you the week after next.
Speaker 3 (53:48):
No Such Thing
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