August 6, 2025 • 32 mins
This week, we take a deep dive into the frustrating conundrum of the kids menu. Why would a restaurant show me they’re capable of making a delicious and adorably small offering of chicken nuggets, only to restrict it to those fortunate to be 12 years old or younger? Are these restrictions an economic necessity, a moralizing judgment, or something else? We speak with a few industry insiders to learn the history of the kids menu and put these limits to the test.
Our guest this week is Kate Lindsay, longtime sufferer at the hands of Big Kids Menu, host of Slate’s internet culture podcast ICYMI and writer of the newsletter Embedded. Thank you to our restaurant industry expert Lori Rakoczy from Technomic, and our anonymous movie theater server.
If you liked this episode, check out Ep. 11: Can you cure picky eating? (w/ Search Engine)
Have a question you want us to answer? Email us at mannynoahdevan@gmail.com or leave a voicemail at (860) 325-0286
For more, subscribe to our newsletter at www.nosuchthing.show
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is no such thing.
The show where we settle our domb arguments and yours
by actually doing the research. This week we look into
a severely underdiscussed form of discrimination upheld by the food industry.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
They can tell me no if the reason is like
we have to kill one kid, if we can.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
No, There's no no such thing, no such thank such, Thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Touch, thank touch, thank.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
So.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
We have a fourth mic with us today. Kate Lindsay,
internet culture writer and co host of ic y am
I Slate's Internet culture podcast.
Speaker 5 (00:43):
Slate's Internet culture podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Welcome to the pod, Kate.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you so much for hiring me. This is a
dream come true, mostly because of the topic I like.
No one's ever allowed me to speak on it before.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah, now's your chance. So this week's topic came from
a conversation we had when we first launched the podcast
a few months ago.
Speaker 6 (01:01):
I can tell you what happened. Shall I tell you
what that?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Two years ago, three years ago, a dune was out.
I can't say which one, but I know I was
in a movie theater.
Speaker 6 (01:15):
To see a dune.
Speaker 7 (01:16):
You're watching, Timothy, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, it was one of those places where you could
order food by writing out a card and get like
full meals, like you know, way beyond the whole popcorn thing.
And so they have a very expansive menu. And I, like,
Manny grew up as a picky eater, and so there
are some foods that us picky eaters know just like
really hit different. And one of those meals is chicken fingers.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
And so it was either that the adult menu did
not have chicken fingers at all, or they had some
version of it that was like kind of an abomination,
Like it was like Dorito crusted.
Speaker 6 (01:55):
Yeah, yeah, like not what I wanted.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
But I saw on the kid's menu they had just
your bog standard chicken tenders and fries, and so I
wrote my little card kids chicken tenders and fries, and
they took it. They went off, and then like a
minute later, someone came back and they kneeled down.
Speaker 6 (02:15):
In front of me. Yeah, they didn't even write it.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
They kneeled down and said, that's like that's from the
kids menu. We we can't serve you that. And I
was like okay, and I got something else, but like
I mean, at that point, the rest of Dune was
out the window.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
For it was ruined.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
Did you push back at all?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
No, because that's not my personality. The movie was playing right,
and so it's like, yeah, I didn't want to like
start it, and like I'm much more of the vibe
of like I'm just gonna really resent that for years
and years and then talk about a podcast.
Speaker 6 (02:50):
But it was just like humiliate.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
It was like that's for little kids and you're a
grown up, and and I just felt so dumb, and
it just more so started a larger type of crisis
for me of like why can't I do this? I
felt very libertarian all of a sudden. I was just
like I don't understand the reasons. More so, I don't
understand why it's inconsistent in terms of whether or not
you're allowed to because there are some places that don't
(03:15):
care because it's on the menu.
Speaker 6 (03:16):
Other places care.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
But now, because of that experience, I am so scared
to do it again. And ever since then, it's just
been it's just been in my brain all the time
because sometimes either they don't have it on the main menu.
It's like something really simple that you want that you're
like perfect, or you know, you just want a kid's portion,
because sometimes you're not there for a full meal, but
(03:39):
you want a little something.
Speaker 8 (03:40):
You would think that you are giving an establishment X
amount of money. Yes, you just get something from their kitchen,
no matter you know what, however they label it, you can.
Speaker 6 (03:49):
Believe I've thought about every which way.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I really try to make sense of this, because it's like, okay,
maybe it's less expensive, but I could show up in
order just an appetizer that's allowed.
Speaker 5 (03:58):
Yeah, and so it's.
Speaker 6 (03:58):
Not like a price thing.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, and I.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
Want to give you my business.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
And because I think, to me, the reason, I can't
figure out what the reason would be other than someone
who's like, well that's all grown up, and I don't
I don't understand, right, right, just give me a little
bit less Like at a certain point, I'd be like, okay,
can I pay for the adult verd?
Speaker 6 (04:19):
You give me the kid? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
It's just it's there, it's available. I don't have to
order anything, but I want to order this.
Speaker 8 (04:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
It just feels like an infringement of some right, But
I haven't really been able to nail down which one
and make a real kid.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (04:36):
Yeah, they are not answering me when I email them.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
I feel for you deeply.
Speaker 8 (04:40):
I'm somewhat of a kid's menu connoisseur, so to speak,
like like I go I'll go to Thankfully the coffee
shops aren't saying no to me. But I'll buy a coffee,
iced coffee or whatever, and I'm just like, can you
just fill it up halfway?
Speaker 6 (04:55):
Right right?
Speaker 8 (04:56):
I don't want to drink this whole thing. And I
know it's crazy because I'm paying for the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I never drink it.
Speaker 7 (05:02):
A small coffee filled that half.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
I'll just feel like, you know, I've done this.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I don't. I'm not going to drink it, give it
to someone else.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
I've done this. I've done this with wine.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I've been like, can I just get like a half
glass I should take? Can I get a kid's size?
Speaker 8 (05:18):
And I'm not asking to pay less? I'm not so yeah,
because I'll put it in the fridge or whatever and
I won't drink it. I'll just sit there for days
and I have to toss it.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Your coffee mm hm oh what that kids menu stuff?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Do you get there?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Kids?
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Men order from the kids menu?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Ever?
Speaker 8 (05:35):
Yeah, I do, I would, and I do. It's separate
from wanting the kids item, it's what it speaks to
what Kate wants. Yeah, it's like this portion, I just
want a smaller amount. And so for at Chipotle, for example,
I'll get the kids menu tray and it's just like
a tinier portion size of their regular item and it
(05:57):
costs less for this. But yeah, at at fast food places,
this portion size, the kids size is filling me up
and it's cheaper.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, And if it's something just have different things. And
I don't like the insinuation that my palette should be
more evolved and offering it to me, they're like, no,
you don't get this because it'll always have like Caesidia
mac and cheese, chicken tenders, like all the hits, quite frankly.
And then they're relegated to the kids menu and if
you get an adult one, they've fucked with it in
(06:28):
some way. They've like they've added something to like make
it more evolved. Yeah, and it's like I don't want that.
I want like you got me all excited I saw
them on the menu. No, I can't get it.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Devin, do you ever want to do this kid's menu stuff?
Speaker 6 (06:42):
The only time?
Speaker 4 (06:43):
No, I need to go.
Speaker 7 (06:46):
The only time I have thought about doing it, but
I'm too embarrassed to do it. Is at an ice
cream place.
Speaker 6 (06:52):
Oh, I will tell you right now.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
An ice cream place is, in my experience, the only
safe place to do it. They will give you kids,
no question asked that they don't go do you have
the kid waiting outside? Yeah, they will just give it
to you, And right they don't. They don't give it
to me and then come back and whisper. And actually
they allow that they understand. But I find that anywhere
(07:17):
where it's like a sit down restaurant, they will not
do it, even though I can see right there that
they have the ability to. And so to me, it's
like it's the lack of understanding why because it seems
to be based I can't figure out in what way
it would be a business reason, and so it seems
(07:38):
to be on principle, and I don't like that. Again,
in a libertarian sense, I don't know why they get
to say that about what I eat.
Speaker 7 (07:46):
If you've felt like you need a reasoning on why
would you feel better about them telling you now?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Or I guess it depends what the reason.
Speaker 6 (07:55):
They can tell me.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
No, if the reason is like we have to kill
one kid if we get like if it's that, then
like sure, okay, I.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
Won't get it.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah, I'll consider it.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, like every time we give a kid's menu item
to an adult, we have to kill one kid.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I'd be like, all right, I'm amazing.
Speaker 7 (08:12):
It's a cost things in because they're usually cheaper and
they just want to force you to order something that's
more expensive.
Speaker 8 (08:18):
Yeah, because you're the adult.
Speaker 6 (08:20):
But that brings me back to like I could just
get an appetize them.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
They're not coming over like you need to get a
made advertizer.
Speaker 8 (08:26):
Yeah, but I will say, just to play Devil's advocates
to the thing, I literally just said sorry, if you
get just an appetizer. They some some places are certainly
annoyed that you're if you.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Go to a let's say, sit down restaurant and you
just order French fries.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, I think it's a capitalism thing because if people
realize they don't if I if they let me do it, it's.
Speaker 6 (08:50):
The news is going to spread.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
And then and like big big Food wants us to
think that we have to order a huge portion and
that's our only option, and there's we can't get anything cheaper.
We have to do the most expensive thing and maybe
OURFK is right.
Speaker 6 (09:07):
You guys back to that episode.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
No, it's people are already mad about us our case.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Listen, listen, I don't care someone's behind all this about
us needing to get like huge portions and absolutely no compromise,
even if like you have the ability and I have
the money and the palette for it. I think we've
established a certain price and portion size that if people
were to realize they could scale back that.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
Restaurants are scared. They're scared of me, and they're scared
of what I have to say.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Scared. So I'm not a kids men you guy typically,
but you know, in preparation for this this past week,
and I did go to a mall. Oh wow, I
went to a an ally a popular family restaurant chain
(09:58):
by myself, saddled up to the bar with the mission
of ordering off the kids menu.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
I'll reveal the results of this later, but it was
quite an experience.
Speaker 6 (10:08):
Yeah, for now a man alone.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Well, I'll say this. I wasn't the only one, believe
it or not, but after the break, I go behind
the scenes of the kids menu industrial complex to find
out how the youth monopolized the small portion chicken tender market.
(10:33):
All right, so we're back. I talked to a few
people during that ad break. One is an anonymous server
at an undisclosed dining movie theater chain which may or
may not have been the one that showed Dune those
years ago.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
I am a server at a i'd say popular dining
movie theater. So the kids menu stuff is pretty standard fair.
You've got like tots, chicken fingers, burger pizza, and almost
call it like snack bar concession type food, nothing too crazy.
At a certain point in the evening it becomes adult only.
(11:12):
They want to be, and I think they are successfully
a place where you can go get a drink, watch
you know, a cultured movie you're going to not see
like a bunch of families or a bunch of kids.
It's something a little bit more elevated, a little bit
more adult for the interestrections ages twelve and under. And
then we stop serving it around APM. I'm pretty sure
that like the POS system that's used, that'll like when
(11:36):
it's actually like eighty six, it'll just stop. Like you
I literally couldn't put it in if I wanted to.
One part is it's to discourage people from bringing their kids,
and that helps to do that if we say, like, hey,
the menu is just adult food, don't bring your kid
because there's not going to be that sort of food available.
But the other is that the standard menu offerings are
(11:57):
one I would think say better, want to push you
to those ones that where more time and thought and
care has been put into those menu options. Just for
the nature of them being more popular and more consumed
by adults. It's also actually more profitable for the theater.
That's the other reason is that it's it's not they
just don't make as much money on the kids food
(12:17):
as they do on the standard adult food.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Some role play. Sure, it's five pm, I'm going to
catch sinners solo. I want the kids tots. I write
that down on the thing. You come by to pick
it up. Yeah, how does this go? I might recommend
something during the greed. If they're like, oh, I want
the kids burger, I'd be like, oh, well, we could
we have this adult burger. You know, it's got X,
(12:41):
Y and Z. It's a little bit nicer, it's a
little bit more elevated, and might try and push them
towards that. But if they're you know, writing on the card,
it's what they want. It's before we've liked the policy,
then I don't have a problem with it.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
But if you're going to make a really crazy sting
about it, and you know, i'd probably got the manager
is something if you're being really rude or completely unreasonable.
From a business perspective, the policy makes sense from like
a personal perspective, like now you should you know, whatever
you want, it's fine, no moral judgment. If you are
(13:12):
five year old and you want, I know, that's totally
there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
It seems like it's very like employee to employee. And
by the way, I know working there sucks, so like, uh,
I it's you know, I know, I know it's not
their fault.
Speaker 6 (13:32):
I know it's like it's someone else's.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
But I would say the delivery of my rejection was
not like, hey, it was it was it was delivered.
Speaker 6 (13:42):
Like a personal problem. It was yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I think if they had said, like, we don't serve
it right now, that would be fine, But it was
like you can't, you can't have it.
Speaker 5 (13:51):
I didn't like if there was a kid next to you,
they could have maybe right.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Right, that's the thing, and so I would I would
have been seeing with him, like it doesn't work, Like
who am I to lose my mind? But the thing
it was making me think about, weirdly is the changes
people want. It it comes to like phones and social
media and tech and like kids on phones.
Speaker 6 (14:12):
But like the thing that would be better.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
For the people is the thing that's less profitable for
the companies, which is like basically to scale back, Like
we're in like and there's a real need to scale
back and they're never going to do it.
Speaker 6 (14:25):
So now that this.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Feels like the same problem where like we've gone so
big and like that's what we're known for, and now
people are coming up against you, like actually I don't think.
I don't think I want to eat this much. But
now it's like, you know the business reason. I'm glad
to hear he personally has no problem with it, because
I do personally have a problem.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
With the movie feat. The thing's complicated because obviously you
don't need to get any It's it's tricky to use
this as example because they obviously want money from the
food too, that's part of their model. But like you
can easily go to one of these places all the time,
and not have any food. It's not their primary function obviously,
so it's interesting that even they have kind of these restrictions.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
And I appreciate the effort that he was saying about,
you know, discouraging kids from coming, because every kid, every
kid except for the one I eventually will have, is
the worst thing in the world. So like, I do
appreciate that, But it's like what draws me, Isn't that
it's for children draws me to right, that it's the
(15:28):
smaller and so I'm like so like like, yeah, it's
like call it something Colone else.
Speaker 6 (15:33):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yeah, I like the mini bite size like munchkins.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, I can't remember. That's the service perspective. Now our
deep throat pointed is something very important. Just follow the
money touched upon earlier. So next up, I spoke with
Laurie Rakozzi. She's an associate principle at TECH covering the
(16:01):
restaurant operator in food service industry. She's gonna help a
zoom out a bit and how the numbers actually crunch out.
So first up, I wanted to know if kids menus
have always been around.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
They really kind of started popping up around prohibition. There
was maybe some incidences where there were kids menus before that,
but in Prohibition, operators were looking for a way to
make up for those lost profits, and so they decided
they might open their restaurants more to families and children
and women, and so that also started popping up back
(16:38):
then at places like the Water for Storia, Marshall Fields
here at a kid's menu, So it was just some
some way to really get more restaurant traffic from a
wider audience.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Do you have any idea on what those menus would
have looked like back then.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Prohibition arrow and the kids' menus first started popping up.
They were typically mirrord what the adults reading to smaller portions,
so you might have seen a very sophisticated menu at
the time. You might have seen like pork chops or
layup chops and chicken, and it just served in smaller pieces.
Speaker 5 (17:11):
And today we see a parallel.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
So restaurants use kids menus as a marketing tool to
bring in families and boosting their check averages. Last year
there was a seven point one percent year over year
growth in kids' menus, so more restaurants are offering more
kids menu items. So here's where it gets tricky, like
our anonymous server said, and Laurie confirmed that these items
(17:33):
are often lost leaders. There's gonna be a tough pill
to swallow.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
So even though they may be actually you know, lost
leaders in a way to have a kid's menu, they
may be you know, at margin or maybe even be unprofitable,
they're actually bringing in They're relying on parents to come
in and then spend that money, or research shows it
tends to be either at margin or you know just
you know, slightly under just assuming the kids aren't coming
in on their own buying kids meals, there are going
(18:00):
to be parents there, and so they're willing to take
that risk because the parents the adult meals are going
to subsidize, you know, whatever losses they're on the kid's side.
So it's really economic and business strategy for why adults
can't order from kids meals. I mean, kids mills are
typically priced either at margin or maybe even at a loss,
and so if adults are allowed to order from the
(18:22):
kids menu, that's going to be the loss of profits there.
So a lot of times the kids adult menus are
really subsidizing the kids' menus, So you're letting an adult
order would really risk profitability and risk losing money in the.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Restaurant, so they're unprofitable. So while the restaurants offer the
items for the restaurant to survive, they need parents to
be ordering some parent food too. And they're very lucky
that ten year olds don't usually go to restaurants by themselves.
Speaker 8 (18:47):
Okay, so basically all right, they're offering the kids menu
knowing that it's not making money to a like be
nicer to the community or whatever. Offer the stuff for kids,
but be because the adults are coming.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, it brings like if you have you've got two kids,
and you're either going to not go to the restaurant
or go yeah you know so, and then that means
you need to order some real food otherwise it's a
total wash for them.
Speaker 8 (19:13):
What happens when I bring my kid and we're both
getting kids the doors.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
The real reason to have a kid, I'm realizing is
that now finally I can like have there there.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
You can't say no to me anymore. I'm not giving
them anything.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah for me?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah No, I see this all the time with like
family bloggers and stuff that they'll make dinner and the
momble you should just eat whatever she's fed the kid,
I'm like, sounds perfect, Like it's gonna be chicken fingers
like all that, all the things should I love. And finally,
no one get mad at me for it, because there's
a child right there with yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I dove a bit into the restaurant profit margins to
see how slim these margins actually are. This is dat
from the NRA, the National Restaurant Association, to be clear. So,
the most significant costs for a restaurant are food and labor,
so those each account for about thirty three cents of
every sales dollar, and then the other costs like expenses, utilities, admin,
processing fees, everything else. It was about twenty nine percent
(20:16):
of sales, so that leaves about five percent or five
cents of every dollar of wiggle room. Basically wow, especially
in our post COVID era inflation economy, et cetera. The
NRA estimates double digit percentage increases for restaurant input costs,
including thirty five percent jumps in food and labor costs,
since twenty nineteen. So just to break even to keep
up with the market, a restaurant would have to raise
(20:38):
prices almost twenty four percent, and that goes up to
thirty percent if they want to maintain that five percent
profit margin. So not a lot of room to play
with here.
Speaker 8 (20:50):
And we're seeing kind of the effect of this, Like
there's so many like really good restaurants around us that
have been closing. But what confuses me is that those
places are always busy, and so I was like, why
are these places closing down if they get a lot
of customers? And I think they you know, they can't
raise their prices because people won't go there, but then
they also can't like afford the rent or whatever.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, so the kids menus are lost leaders. They bring
in customers, They build brand loyalty. You can think about
places you went as a kid that you might like still,
So it's still worth it on some level just to
build that sort of community around the restaurant before we
go on, does you know hearing the flight of the
restaurant industry at all?
Speaker 5 (21:31):
And it's okay if not, No, it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Here's what that makes me think about the play of
the restaurant industry. I don't I feel bad about that,
you know, in general, of course, I don't feel bad
about my role in that. Wanting to order from the
kids menu, because it makes me think a little bit
about tipping, which I'm generally very I'm very pro tipping,
but the tipping discourse, you know, people should be getting
(21:57):
paid a living wage, and it is such a like
twisted move that they've somehow outsourced the responsibility to that
onto the people. And so this feeling, this feels exactly
the same, feels kind of similar in the sense it's
like the restaurant industry is crumbling.
Speaker 6 (22:12):
Things are really expensive.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
If you if they let you order from the kids menu,
they're not going to make enough money. But you know,
that framing is that I'm the one inflicting this downfall
on them by this by wanting to have less food
at less price, when really the problem is the many
societal things at the top, right, and like you know,
(22:39):
and and people wouldn't you know if housing costs were
less than people could work for, Like it's all it's
I didn't even realize how connected this is to just
all the structural problems in the world.
Speaker 6 (22:49):
But then it's easy.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
It's just the same type of like coverts switch around,
where ITA's like my inability to get like smaller portions
at a appropriate price is a symptom of a bunch
of higher problems in society, but that when you go
asking why can't I do this, you know that the
answer is, oh, because you need to support restaurants. As
(23:11):
if I had any part in sort of all the
things that changed, including starting a pandemic, I had no
role in that. I've always wondered, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and yes,
how do you feel like gain a function research?
Speaker 6 (23:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And so it's just like like sure, I understand that
in this specific scenario, if we're looking at this layer
of it all, like yes, if I were to do
that and insist upon it, they wouldn't make money.
Speaker 6 (23:40):
But I actually have nothing to do with that situation.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Well, you're a proponent of smaller portions, so you you
would you would be, in theory, be happy with, you know,
an adult burger. But let's say it's a six ounce
burger instead of an.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
Eight ounce, right right?
Speaker 6 (23:54):
Like yeah, Like so, I mean I.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Don't know if that saves the money.
Speaker 6 (23:57):
I don't know what would happen.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
To society if, yeah, if the portions just suddenly got smaller.
But I think I, yeah, I would be It's also
like never, it really is not about the price. It
is about what it is, how it's smaller, and it's
sometimes it's just a bit more straightforward, and that's what
I want.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yeah, all right, So we've learned about why kids menus
are restricted to kids. Let's talk solutions after the break.
So we're back. So we're gonna talk about potential solutions
to the kid menu conundrum. But first a bit about
(24:34):
my own experience at the mall. All right, I'm outside
the restaurant. I'm about to go in, trying to get
a seat at the bar and see how the kid's
mini thing goes. So I walk in. You know, some
(24:54):
great music's playing by a Jelly roll or someone trump Sure,
Benz Boom.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
It's yeah, it's like, I go up, get seated.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Immediately, it's pretty empty, a few couples in there, some
another guy at the bar chilling. They don't give me
the kids menu. To give me the.
Speaker 9 (25:12):
Regular about that, because it's a big Well do you
remember when you were at the age where they stopped
giving you the kids man, that was a big that
was like, oh, I'm an.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Adult, like a.
Speaker 7 (25:27):
Oh yeah, I kind of didn't like because that was
fun to do it as a kid.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I wish they had more of.
Speaker 6 (25:32):
Those at least of the episode is like, and I
should be able to draw.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
On that can't cost them. Yeah, so anyway, so I'm
looking at I don't they don't give it to me.
But then I'm just like, all right, So lady standing there,
I'm just like, oh, well, can I just have a
kid's burger? And then is there any way I can
just get like a kid's size cheeseburger, And without any hesitation,
(25:58):
she goes sure and puts it in. What I was shocked?
Speaker 7 (26:01):
Wow?
Speaker 6 (26:02):
What?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
And I hadn't ordered anything else, Like it's not like
I got like I got to be here afterwards.
Speaker 6 (26:08):
But you have a kids burger and one beer. It's
a time that kids could feasibly be there.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
It was like noon.
Speaker 6 (26:15):
Yeah, so maybe that that that could be part of it,
you know, And.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Maybe because they weren't busy, you know, but I was.
I was because I wanted to go buy myself for
that reason, to be the most challenging.
Speaker 6 (26:25):
To be the most version of the its like, you.
Speaker 5 (26:28):
Know, if I was with other people, okay, not everyone's
going to get the kids to think.
Speaker 6 (26:32):
You know, and you two go, how was it like
size wise.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
And I mean it's the size of it. So it
was I took a picture. Was small. I mean the
burger was definitely smaller than usual, and like not as
many acoutreman.
Speaker 6 (26:45):
You know, not as elevated, not elevated really at all.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Patty cheese, lettuce, tomato. I don't think there was onion
any all the hits. Yeah, and then good portion of
French fries. Sure, pretty excellent and more than I would
think for a kid's Like, it didn't feel like they
give me a kids portion of the fries.
Speaker 7 (27:04):
It's a grown as man order.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
And yeah, this guy's gonna get we gotta film give
regular exactly.
Speaker 8 (27:09):
It sounds like what the inside source at the movie
theater was saying, where it does kind of depend on
who the employees at the time. This woman just sounded
like she didn't give a ship.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
So so I mean I think that's another you know
question here is the inconsistency.
Speaker 5 (27:24):
Yeah, because I mean, you know, you say, you know,
you're not.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Someone who's gonna throw a fit about this, obviously, but yeah,
and like or like you're at a restaurant now you
don't want to ask, And part of that is because
you have no idea, what reaction, what's gonna happen? Let's
talk about solutions. So I had some ideas that I'm
curious how you guys feel, so like some of them
we've already kind of touched on. So like you would be,
(27:47):
would you be happy to order a kid's meal but
pay a surcharge for being an adult? So say it's
it's normally ten dollars, you have to pay four dollars
extra for a lot.
Speaker 8 (27:58):
Four is a lot. It was two dollars the cost
of the But here's the thing. Yes, I would be
okay with it. It's not my ideal situation.
Speaker 6 (28:05):
Yeah, I would.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
I would do it though if I they just but
if I saw it, they would need to say it
on the thing because it's always like for twelve or under,
and then there's another bit of fine print.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Like plus plus four for adult.
Speaker 8 (28:18):
Yeah if if the kids men, you plus the surcharge
is still cheaper than the adult item.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
You're in fine.
Speaker 6 (28:24):
Yes, yes, okay, that's.
Speaker 8 (28:26):
Because I want less food, but I also want to
pay the a fair price for it, right, what.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
About just paying for a half portion? That's my golden standard.
Speaker 8 (28:34):
Yeah, I just want half of the thing and I
want to pay half the price for it.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Like in some cases, yes, it's like I want the
very specific, picky eater food that they have. But for
the most part, and because I'm just sort of i'm
you know, I'm solutions orientated. If this would just if
we could all agree on this, and I'd be happy
to settle for just half portion, yeah, of adult adult food, because.
Speaker 8 (28:54):
Then they're not necessary They're not technically losing money on
that deal. They are not making it as much as
they could if they forced me to get the adult thing.
Speaker 7 (29:03):
De My thing is you kind of alluded to it.
But just right on the menu, who can order what?
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I think? That's right. That's what we need is transparency
all over.
Speaker 7 (29:12):
This is only for.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
How hard how hard line are.
Speaker 6 (29:15):
These right, it's like twelve and under. But sometimes it's
not like only twelve, it's like twelve.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Like this is designed twelve year right, right?
Speaker 7 (29:22):
Maybe what they have menus and they say like for
kids only, like adults can order if you're yeah, if
you're not with a kid.
Speaker 8 (29:30):
Yeah, And I'll obey that, but also have my problems, Yeah,
but why can't I You can have your problems with.
Speaker 7 (29:38):
The menu, Yes, exactly, it's not okay, now this person,
at least we know the rules of engagement.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, I asked about during COVID, so many restaurants that
wouldn't normally have takeout started offering that because one people
couldn't go into the restaurants. So that's kind of something
that Lori, the industry analyst, was kind of suggesting as
a workaround. Yeah, obviously it's not the same as dining.
But if you really want this food and you're going
(30:03):
to pay the surcharge of the takeout thing, but if
you need that tender meal, you can get it from the.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
The place is getting like just in order for like
a diet cook and envisioning like a kid on the
other end, like exactly replacing the.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Order and they're paying. Like but yeah, so that's something
where the industry is shifting, and maybe you know, on
a long enough timeline, out of pure necessity, you will
be able to disorder anything. Mm hmm, that.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Will yeah, Because yeah, I mean, ultimately, I feel like
I'm cooler with the idea in general of like restaurants
being a bit more expensive if the people who work
there are paid fairly and you're willing to pay, and
that supports it, like on one condition, you allow me
to order from the kids menu, because you've made it
sustainable for you, Like, I will pay the sustainable price.
(30:56):
And I feel like we should be more accustomed to
get you of paying more are for privileges, which it
is to go to this fine establishment and watch Dune
and get like, you know, I'm literally getting alcohol brought
to me to watch a movie.
Speaker 6 (31:09):
I will pay for.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Whatever makes it work for them for them to give
me just basic chicken fingers and fries.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
I guess I wonder how many adults actually would want that.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
I know how in this room there's fifty percent in
the general population.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I wonder what it would be. I think it would
be fifty. It's probably one.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
You know, like those those things that would do with
like de Jorn did, where people be like, oh my god,
I love this restaurants.
Speaker 6 (31:35):
Actually we would do that, but we would put people
and kids portion yeah, what do you think? And then
they're gonna go it's fine.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
That was the kids that the kids, and guess what
you're paying?
Speaker 5 (31:49):
Yeah, or ten dollars more for that.
Speaker 6 (31:51):
No, they would leave so happy. They would be like,
oh my god. And but that's again big food doesn't want.
Speaker 5 (31:56):
To just know that.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Hells than.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
No such Thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Our
executive producers are Kate Osbourne and Mangeshatza Cadur. The show
was created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, and Devin Joseph.
Theme and credits music by Manny. Our guest this week
was Kate Lindsay from the Icy m I podcast and
embedded newsletter. And thank you to our experts in the field,
Laurie Racodzi, anonymous movie theater employee, and my amazing server
(32:25):
at Apple Piece. We couldn't have done this without you.
For more, please visit No Such Thing dot show. You
can subscribe to our newsletter and get a little bit
more insight into the episodes, and if you have feedback
for us or our question, our email addresses Manny Noah
Devin at gmail dot com. If you're in the US,
you can also leave us a voicemail by calling the
number in our show notes. We'll be back next week
with a new episode. Thanks, Hell's Hell's, Hell's, Hell's such Thing.
I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is no such thing.
The show where we settle our domb arguments and yours
by actually doing the research. This week we look into
a severely underdiscussed form of discrimination upheld by the food industry.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
They can tell me no if the reason is like
we have to kill one kid, if we can.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
No, There's no no such thing, no such thank such, Thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Touch, thank touch, thank.
Speaker 4 (00:35):
So.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
We have a fourth mic with us today. Kate Lindsay,
internet culture writer and co host of ic y am
I Slate's Internet culture podcast.
Speaker 5 (00:43):
Slate's Internet culture podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Welcome to the pod, Kate.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you so much for hiring me. This is a
dream come true, mostly because of the topic I like.
No one's ever allowed me to speak on it before.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah, now's your chance. So this week's topic came from
a conversation we had when we first launched the podcast
a few months ago.
Speaker 6 (01:01):
I can tell you what happened. Shall I tell you
what that?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Two years ago, three years ago, a dune was out.
I can't say which one, but I know I was
in a movie theater.
Speaker 6 (01:15):
To see a dune.
Speaker 7 (01:16):
You're watching, Timothy, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Yeah, it was one of those places where you could
order food by writing out a card and get like
full meals, like you know, way beyond the whole popcorn thing.
And so they have a very expansive menu. And I, like,
Manny grew up as a picky eater, and so there
are some foods that us picky eaters know just like
really hit different. And one of those meals is chicken fingers.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
And so it was either that the adult menu did
not have chicken fingers at all, or they had some
version of it that was like kind of an abomination,
Like it was like Dorito crusted.
Speaker 6 (01:55):
Yeah, yeah, like not what I wanted.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
But I saw on the kid's menu they had just
your bog standard chicken tenders and fries, and so I
wrote my little card kids chicken tenders and fries, and
they took it. They went off, and then like a
minute later, someone came back and they kneeled down.
Speaker 6 (02:15):
In front of me. Yeah, they didn't even write it.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
They kneeled down and said, that's like that's from the
kids menu. We we can't serve you that. And I
was like okay, and I got something else, but like
I mean, at that point, the rest of Dune was
out the window.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
For it was ruined.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
Did you push back at all?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
No, because that's not my personality. The movie was playing right,
and so it's like, yeah, I didn't want to like
start it, and like I'm much more of the vibe
of like I'm just gonna really resent that for years
and years and then talk about a podcast.
Speaker 6 (02:50):
But it was just like humiliate.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
It was like that's for little kids and you're a
grown up, and and I just felt so dumb, and
it just more so started a larger type of crisis
for me of like why can't I do this? I
felt very libertarian all of a sudden. I was just
like I don't understand the reasons. More so, I don't
understand why it's inconsistent in terms of whether or not
you're allowed to because there are some places that don't
(03:15):
care because it's on the menu.
Speaker 6 (03:16):
Other places care.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
But now, because of that experience, I am so scared
to do it again. And ever since then, it's just
been it's just been in my brain all the time
because sometimes either they don't have it on the main menu.
It's like something really simple that you want that you're
like perfect, or you know, you just want a kid's portion,
because sometimes you're not there for a full meal, but
(03:39):
you want a little something.
Speaker 8 (03:40):
You would think that you are giving an establishment X
amount of money. Yes, you just get something from their kitchen,
no matter you know what, however they label it, you can.
Speaker 6 (03:49):
Believe I've thought about every which way.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I really try to make sense of this, because it's like, okay,
maybe it's less expensive, but I could show up in
order just an appetizer that's allowed.
Speaker 5 (03:58):
Yeah, and so it's.
Speaker 6 (03:58):
Not like a price thing.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, and I.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
Want to give you my business.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
And because I think, to me, the reason, I can't
figure out what the reason would be other than someone
who's like, well that's all grown up, and I don't
I don't understand, right, right, just give me a little
bit less Like at a certain point, I'd be like, okay,
can I pay for the adult verd?
Speaker 6 (04:19):
You give me the kid? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
It's just it's there, it's available. I don't have to
order anything, but I want to order this.
Speaker 8 (04:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
It just feels like an infringement of some right, But
I haven't really been able to nail down which one
and make a real kid.
Speaker 5 (04:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (04:36):
Yeah, they are not answering me when I email them.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
I feel for you deeply.
Speaker 8 (04:40):
I'm somewhat of a kid's menu connoisseur, so to speak,
like like I go I'll go to Thankfully the coffee
shops aren't saying no to me. But I'll buy a coffee,
iced coffee or whatever, and I'm just like, can you
just fill it up halfway?
Speaker 6 (04:55):
Right right?
Speaker 8 (04:56):
I don't want to drink this whole thing. And I
know it's crazy because I'm paying for the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I never drink it.
Speaker 7 (05:02):
A small coffee filled that half.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
I'll just feel like, you know, I've done this.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
I don't. I'm not going to drink it, give it
to someone else.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
I've done this. I've done this with wine.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I've been like, can I just get like a half
glass I should take? Can I get a kid's size?
Speaker 8 (05:18):
And I'm not asking to pay less? I'm not so yeah,
because I'll put it in the fridge or whatever and
I won't drink it. I'll just sit there for days
and I have to toss it.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Your coffee mm hm oh what that kids menu stuff?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Do you get there?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Kids?
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Men order from the kids menu?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Ever?
Speaker 8 (05:35):
Yeah, I do, I would, and I do. It's separate
from wanting the kids item, it's what it speaks to
what Kate wants. Yeah, it's like this portion, I just
want a smaller amount. And so for at Chipotle, for example,
I'll get the kids menu tray and it's just like
a tinier portion size of their regular item and it
(05:57):
costs less for this. But yeah, at at fast food places,
this portion size, the kids size is filling me up
and it's cheaper.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, And if it's something just have different things. And
I don't like the insinuation that my palette should be
more evolved and offering it to me, they're like, no,
you don't get this because it'll always have like Caesidia
mac and cheese, chicken tenders, like all the hits, quite frankly.
And then they're relegated to the kids menu and if
you get an adult one, they've fucked with it in
(06:28):
some way. They've like they've added something to like make
it more evolved. Yeah, and it's like I don't want that.
I want like you got me all excited I saw
them on the menu. No, I can't get it.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Devin, do you ever want to do this kid's menu stuff?
Speaker 6 (06:42):
The only time?
Speaker 4 (06:43):
No, I need to go.
Speaker 7 (06:46):
The only time I have thought about doing it, but
I'm too embarrassed to do it. Is at an ice
cream place.
Speaker 6 (06:52):
Oh, I will tell you right now.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
An ice cream place is, in my experience, the only
safe place to do it. They will give you kids,
no question asked that they don't go do you have
the kid waiting outside? Yeah, they will just give it
to you, And right they don't. They don't give it
to me and then come back and whisper. And actually
they allow that they understand. But I find that anywhere
(07:17):
where it's like a sit down restaurant, they will not
do it, even though I can see right there that
they have the ability to. And so to me, it's
like it's the lack of understanding why because it seems
to be based I can't figure out in what way
it would be a business reason, and so it seems
(07:38):
to be on principle, and I don't like that. Again,
in a libertarian sense, I don't know why they get
to say that about what I eat.
Speaker 7 (07:46):
If you've felt like you need a reasoning on why
would you feel better about them telling you now?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Or I guess it depends what the reason.
Speaker 6 (07:55):
They can tell me.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
No, if the reason is like we have to kill
one kid if we get like if it's that, then
like sure, okay, I.
Speaker 6 (08:02):
Won't get it.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah, I'll consider it.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, like every time we give a kid's menu item
to an adult, we have to kill one kid.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
I'd be like, all right, I'm amazing.
Speaker 7 (08:12):
It's a cost things in because they're usually cheaper and
they just want to force you to order something that's
more expensive.
Speaker 8 (08:18):
Yeah, because you're the adult.
Speaker 6 (08:20):
But that brings me back to like I could just
get an appetize them.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
They're not coming over like you need to get a
made advertizer.
Speaker 8 (08:26):
Yeah, but I will say, just to play Devil's advocates
to the thing, I literally just said sorry, if you
get just an appetizer. They some some places are certainly
annoyed that you're if you.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Go to a let's say, sit down restaurant and you
just order French fries.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, I think it's a capitalism thing because if people
realize they don't if I if they let me do it, it's.
Speaker 6 (08:50):
The news is going to spread.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
And then and like big big Food wants us to
think that we have to order a huge portion and
that's our only option, and there's we can't get anything cheaper.
We have to do the most expensive thing and maybe
OURFK is right.
Speaker 6 (09:07):
You guys back to that episode.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
No, it's people are already mad about us our case.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Listen, listen, I don't care someone's behind all this about
us needing to get like huge portions and absolutely no compromise,
even if like you have the ability and I have
the money and the palette for it. I think we've
established a certain price and portion size that if people
were to realize they could scale back that.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
Restaurants are scared. They're scared of me, and they're scared
of what I have to say.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Scared. So I'm not a kids men you guy typically,
but you know, in preparation for this this past week,
and I did go to a mall. Oh wow, I
went to a an ally a popular family restaurant chain
(09:58):
by myself, saddled up to the bar with the mission
of ordering off the kids menu.
Speaker 5 (10:03):
I'll reveal the results of this later, but it was
quite an experience.
Speaker 6 (10:08):
Yeah, for now a man alone.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Well, I'll say this. I wasn't the only one, believe
it or not, but after the break, I go behind
the scenes of the kids menu industrial complex to find
out how the youth monopolized the small portion chicken tender market.
(10:33):
All right, so we're back. I talked to a few
people during that ad break. One is an anonymous server
at an undisclosed dining movie theater chain which may or
may not have been the one that showed Dune those
years ago.
Speaker 4 (10:51):
I am a server at a i'd say popular dining
movie theater. So the kids menu stuff is pretty standard fair.
You've got like tots, chicken fingers, burger pizza, and almost
call it like snack bar concession type food, nothing too crazy.
At a certain point in the evening it becomes adult only.
(11:12):
They want to be, and I think they are successfully
a place where you can go get a drink, watch
you know, a cultured movie you're going to not see
like a bunch of families or a bunch of kids.
It's something a little bit more elevated, a little bit
more adult for the interestrections ages twelve and under. And
then we stop serving it around APM. I'm pretty sure
that like the POS system that's used, that'll like when
(11:36):
it's actually like eighty six, it'll just stop. Like you
I literally couldn't put it in if I wanted to.
One part is it's to discourage people from bringing their kids,
and that helps to do that if we say, like, hey,
the menu is just adult food, don't bring your kid
because there's not going to be that sort of food available.
But the other is that the standard menu offerings are
(11:57):
one I would think say better, want to push you
to those ones that where more time and thought and
care has been put into those menu options. Just for
the nature of them being more popular and more consumed
by adults. It's also actually more profitable for the theater.
That's the other reason is that it's it's not they
just don't make as much money on the kids food
(12:17):
as they do on the standard adult food.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Some role play. Sure, it's five pm, I'm going to
catch sinners solo. I want the kids tots. I write
that down on the thing. You come by to pick
it up. Yeah, how does this go? I might recommend
something during the greed. If they're like, oh, I want
the kids burger, I'd be like, oh, well, we could
we have this adult burger. You know, it's got X,
(12:41):
Y and Z. It's a little bit nicer, it's a
little bit more elevated, and might try and push them
towards that. But if they're you know, writing on the card,
it's what they want. It's before we've liked the policy,
then I don't have a problem with it.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
But if you're going to make a really crazy sting
about it, and you know, i'd probably got the manager
is something if you're being really rude or completely unreasonable.
From a business perspective, the policy makes sense from like
a personal perspective, like now you should you know, whatever
you want, it's fine, no moral judgment. If you are
(13:12):
five year old and you want, I know, that's totally
there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
It seems like it's very like employee to employee. And
by the way, I know working there sucks, so like, uh,
I it's you know, I know, I know it's not
their fault.
Speaker 6 (13:32):
I know it's like it's someone else's.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
But I would say the delivery of my rejection was
not like, hey, it was it was it was delivered.
Speaker 6 (13:42):
Like a personal problem. It was yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I think if they had said, like, we don't serve
it right now, that would be fine, But it was
like you can't, you can't have it.
Speaker 5 (13:51):
I didn't like if there was a kid next to you,
they could have maybe right.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Right, that's the thing, and so I would I would
have been seeing with him, like it doesn't work, Like
who am I to lose my mind? But the thing
it was making me think about, weirdly is the changes
people want. It it comes to like phones and social
media and tech and like kids on phones.
Speaker 6 (14:12):
But like the thing that would be better.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
For the people is the thing that's less profitable for
the companies, which is like basically to scale back, Like
we're in like and there's a real need to scale
back and they're never going to do it.
Speaker 6 (14:25):
So now that this.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Feels like the same problem where like we've gone so
big and like that's what we're known for, and now
people are coming up against you, like actually I don't think.
I don't think I want to eat this much. But
now it's like, you know the business reason. I'm glad
to hear he personally has no problem with it, because
I do personally have a problem.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
With the movie feat. The thing's complicated because obviously you
don't need to get any It's it's tricky to use
this as example because they obviously want money from the
food too, that's part of their model. But like you
can easily go to one of these places all the time,
and not have any food. It's not their primary function obviously,
so it's interesting that even they have kind of these restrictions.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
And I appreciate the effort that he was saying about,
you know, discouraging kids from coming, because every kid, every
kid except for the one I eventually will have, is
the worst thing in the world. So like, I do
appreciate that, But it's like what draws me, Isn't that
it's for children draws me to right, that it's the
(15:28):
smaller and so I'm like so like like, yeah, it's
like call it something Colone else.
Speaker 6 (15:33):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yeah, I like the mini bite size like munchkins.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, I can't remember. That's the service perspective. Now our
deep throat pointed is something very important. Just follow the
money touched upon earlier. So next up, I spoke with
Laurie Rakozzi. She's an associate principle at TECH covering the
(16:01):
restaurant operator in food service industry. She's gonna help a
zoom out a bit and how the numbers actually crunch out.
So first up, I wanted to know if kids menus
have always been around.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
They really kind of started popping up around prohibition. There
was maybe some incidences where there were kids menus before that,
but in Prohibition, operators were looking for a way to
make up for those lost profits, and so they decided
they might open their restaurants more to families and children
and women, and so that also started popping up back
(16:38):
then at places like the Water for Storia, Marshall Fields
here at a kid's menu, So it was just some
some way to really get more restaurant traffic from a
wider audience.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Do you have any idea on what those menus would
have looked like back then.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Prohibition arrow and the kids' menus first started popping up.
They were typically mirrord what the adults reading to smaller portions,
so you might have seen a very sophisticated menu at
the time. You might have seen like pork chops or
layup chops and chicken, and it just served in smaller pieces.
Speaker 5 (17:11):
And today we see a parallel.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
So restaurants use kids menus as a marketing tool to
bring in families and boosting their check averages. Last year
there was a seven point one percent year over year
growth in kids' menus, so more restaurants are offering more
kids menu items. So here's where it gets tricky, like
our anonymous server said, and Laurie confirmed that these items
(17:33):
are often lost leaders. There's gonna be a tough pill
to swallow.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
So even though they may be actually you know, lost
leaders in a way to have a kid's menu, they
may be you know, at margin or maybe even be unprofitable,
they're actually bringing in They're relying on parents to come
in and then spend that money, or research shows it
tends to be either at margin or you know just
you know, slightly under just assuming the kids aren't coming
in on their own buying kids meals, there are going
(18:00):
to be parents there, and so they're willing to take
that risk because the parents the adult meals are going
to subsidize, you know, whatever losses they're on the kid's side.
So it's really economic and business strategy for why adults
can't order from kids meals. I mean, kids mills are
typically priced either at margin or maybe even at a loss,
and so if adults are allowed to order from the
(18:22):
kids menu, that's going to be the loss of profits there.
So a lot of times the kids adult menus are
really subsidizing the kids' menus, So you're letting an adult
order would really risk profitability and risk losing money in the.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Restaurant, so they're unprofitable. So while the restaurants offer the
items for the restaurant to survive, they need parents to
be ordering some parent food too. And they're very lucky
that ten year olds don't usually go to restaurants by themselves.
Speaker 8 (18:47):
Okay, so basically all right, they're offering the kids menu
knowing that it's not making money to a like be
nicer to the community or whatever. Offer the stuff for kids,
but be because the adults are coming.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, it brings like if you have you've got two kids,
and you're either going to not go to the restaurant
or go yeah you know so, and then that means
you need to order some real food otherwise it's a
total wash for them.
Speaker 8 (19:13):
What happens when I bring my kid and we're both
getting kids the doors.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
The real reason to have a kid, I'm realizing is
that now finally I can like have there there.
Speaker 6 (19:24):
You can't say no to me anymore. I'm not giving
them anything.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah for me?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah No, I see this all the time with like
family bloggers and stuff that they'll make dinner and the
momble you should just eat whatever she's fed the kid,
I'm like, sounds perfect, Like it's gonna be chicken fingers
like all that, all the things should I love. And finally,
no one get mad at me for it, because there's
a child right there with yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I dove a bit into the restaurant profit margins to
see how slim these margins actually are. This is dat
from the NRA, the National Restaurant Association, to be clear. So,
the most significant costs for a restaurant are food and labor,
so those each account for about thirty three cents of
every sales dollar, and then the other costs like expenses, utilities, admin,
processing fees, everything else. It was about twenty nine percent
(20:16):
of sales, so that leaves about five percent or five
cents of every dollar of wiggle room. Basically wow, especially
in our post COVID era inflation economy, et cetera. The
NRA estimates double digit percentage increases for restaurant input costs,
including thirty five percent jumps in food and labor costs,
since twenty nineteen. So just to break even to keep
up with the market, a restaurant would have to raise
(20:38):
prices almost twenty four percent, and that goes up to
thirty percent if they want to maintain that five percent
profit margin. So not a lot of room to play
with here.
Speaker 8 (20:50):
And we're seeing kind of the effect of this, Like
there's so many like really good restaurants around us that
have been closing. But what confuses me is that those
places are always busy, and so I was like, why
are these places closing down if they get a lot
of customers? And I think they you know, they can't
raise their prices because people won't go there, but then
they also can't like afford the rent or whatever.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, so the kids menus are lost leaders. They bring
in customers, They build brand loyalty. You can think about
places you went as a kid that you might like still,
So it's still worth it on some level just to
build that sort of community around the restaurant before we
go on, does you know hearing the flight of the
restaurant industry at all?
Speaker 5 (21:31):
And it's okay if not, No, it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Here's what that makes me think about the play of
the restaurant industry. I don't I feel bad about that,
you know, in general, of course, I don't feel bad
about my role in that. Wanting to order from the
kids menu, because it makes me think a little bit
about tipping, which I'm generally very I'm very pro tipping,
but the tipping discourse, you know, people should be getting
(21:57):
paid a living wage, and it is such a like
twisted move that they've somehow outsourced the responsibility to that
onto the people. And so this feeling, this feels exactly
the same, feels kind of similar in the sense it's
like the restaurant industry is crumbling.
Speaker 6 (22:12):
Things are really expensive.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
If you if they let you order from the kids menu,
they're not going to make enough money. But you know,
that framing is that I'm the one inflicting this downfall
on them by this by wanting to have less food
at less price, when really the problem is the many
societal things at the top, right, and like you know,
(22:39):
and and people wouldn't you know if housing costs were
less than people could work for, Like it's all it's
I didn't even realize how connected this is to just
all the structural problems in the world.
Speaker 6 (22:49):
But then it's easy.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
It's just the same type of like coverts switch around,
where ITA's like my inability to get like smaller portions
at a appropriate price is a symptom of a bunch
of higher problems in society, but that when you go
asking why can't I do this, you know that the
answer is, oh, because you need to support restaurants. As
(23:11):
if I had any part in sort of all the
things that changed, including starting a pandemic, I had no
role in that. I've always wondered, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and yes,
how do you feel like gain a function research?
Speaker 6 (23:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
And so it's just like like sure, I understand that
in this specific scenario, if we're looking at this layer
of it all, like yes, if I were to do
that and insist upon it, they wouldn't make money.
Speaker 6 (23:40):
But I actually have nothing to do with that situation.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Well, you're a proponent of smaller portions, so you you
would you would be, in theory, be happy with, you know,
an adult burger. But let's say it's a six ounce
burger instead of an.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
Eight ounce, right right?
Speaker 6 (23:54):
Like yeah, Like so, I mean I.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Don't know if that saves the money.
Speaker 6 (23:57):
I don't know what would happen.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
To society if, yeah, if the portions just suddenly got smaller.
But I think I, yeah, I would be It's also
like never, it really is not about the price. It
is about what it is, how it's smaller, and it's
sometimes it's just a bit more straightforward, and that's what
I want.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yeah, all right, So we've learned about why kids menus
are restricted to kids. Let's talk solutions after the break.
So we're back. So we're gonna talk about potential solutions
to the kid menu conundrum. But first a bit about
(24:34):
my own experience at the mall. All right, I'm outside
the restaurant. I'm about to go in, trying to get
a seat at the bar and see how the kid's
mini thing goes. So I walk in. You know, some
(24:54):
great music's playing by a Jelly roll or someone trump Sure,
Benz Boom.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
It's yeah, it's like, I go up, get seated.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Immediately, it's pretty empty, a few couples in there, some
another guy at the bar chilling. They don't give me
the kids menu. To give me the.
Speaker 9 (25:12):
Regular about that, because it's a big Well do you
remember when you were at the age where they stopped
giving you the kids man, that was a big that
was like, oh, I'm an.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Adult, like a.
Speaker 7 (25:27):
Oh yeah, I kind of didn't like because that was
fun to do it as a kid.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I wish they had more of.
Speaker 6 (25:32):
Those at least of the episode is like, and I
should be able to draw.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
On that can't cost them. Yeah, so anyway, so I'm
looking at I don't they don't give it to me.
But then I'm just like, all right, So lady standing there,
I'm just like, oh, well, can I just have a
kid's burger? And then is there any way I can
just get like a kid's size cheeseburger, And without any hesitation,
(25:58):
she goes sure and puts it in. What I was shocked?
Speaker 7 (26:01):
Wow?
Speaker 6 (26:02):
What?
Speaker 1 (26:03):
And I hadn't ordered anything else, Like it's not like
I got like I got to be here afterwards.
Speaker 6 (26:08):
But you have a kids burger and one beer. It's
a time that kids could feasibly be there.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
It was like noon.
Speaker 6 (26:15):
Yeah, so maybe that that that could be part of it,
you know, And.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Maybe because they weren't busy, you know, but I was.
I was because I wanted to go buy myself for
that reason, to be the most challenging.
Speaker 6 (26:25):
To be the most version of the its like, you.
Speaker 5 (26:28):
Know, if I was with other people, okay, not everyone's
going to get the kids to think.
Speaker 6 (26:32):
You know, and you two go, how was it like
size wise.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
And I mean it's the size of it. So it
was I took a picture. Was small. I mean the
burger was definitely smaller than usual, and like not as
many acoutreman.
Speaker 6 (26:45):
You know, not as elevated, not elevated really at all.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Patty cheese, lettuce, tomato. I don't think there was onion
any all the hits. Yeah, and then good portion of
French fries. Sure, pretty excellent and more than I would
think for a kid's Like, it didn't feel like they
give me a kids portion of the fries.
Speaker 7 (27:04):
It's a grown as man order.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
And yeah, this guy's gonna get we gotta film give
regular exactly.
Speaker 8 (27:09):
It sounds like what the inside source at the movie
theater was saying, where it does kind of depend on
who the employees at the time. This woman just sounded
like she didn't give a ship.
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
So so I mean I think that's another you know
question here is the inconsistency.
Speaker 5 (27:24):
Yeah, because I mean, you know, you say, you know,
you're not.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Someone who's gonna throw a fit about this, obviously, but yeah,
and like or like you're at a restaurant now you
don't want to ask, And part of that is because
you have no idea, what reaction, what's gonna happen? Let's
talk about solutions. So I had some ideas that I'm
curious how you guys feel, so like some of them
we've already kind of touched on. So like you would be,
(27:47):
would you be happy to order a kid's meal but
pay a surcharge for being an adult? So say it's
it's normally ten dollars, you have to pay four dollars
extra for a lot.
Speaker 8 (27:58):
Four is a lot. It was two dollars the cost
of the But here's the thing. Yes, I would be
okay with it. It's not my ideal situation.
Speaker 6 (28:05):
Yeah, I would.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
I would do it though if I they just but
if I saw it, they would need to say it
on the thing because it's always like for twelve or under,
and then there's another bit of fine print.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Like plus plus four for adult.
Speaker 8 (28:18):
Yeah if if the kids men, you plus the surcharge
is still cheaper than the adult item.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
You're in fine.
Speaker 6 (28:24):
Yes, yes, okay, that's.
Speaker 8 (28:26):
Because I want less food, but I also want to
pay the a fair price for it, right, what.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
About just paying for a half portion? That's my golden standard.
Speaker 8 (28:34):
Yeah, I just want half of the thing and I
want to pay half the price for it.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Like in some cases, yes, it's like I want the
very specific, picky eater food that they have. But for
the most part, and because I'm just sort of i'm
you know, I'm solutions orientated. If this would just if
we could all agree on this, and I'd be happy
to settle for just half portion, yeah, of adult adult food, because.
Speaker 8 (28:54):
Then they're not necessary They're not technically losing money on
that deal. They are not making it as much as
they could if they forced me to get the adult thing.
Speaker 7 (29:03):
De My thing is you kind of alluded to it.
But just right on the menu, who can order what?
Speaker 1 (29:09):
I think? That's right. That's what we need is transparency
all over.
Speaker 7 (29:12):
This is only for.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
How hard how hard line are.
Speaker 6 (29:15):
These right, it's like twelve and under. But sometimes it's
not like only twelve, it's like twelve.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Like this is designed twelve year right, right?
Speaker 7 (29:22):
Maybe what they have menus and they say like for
kids only, like adults can order if you're yeah, if
you're not with a kid.
Speaker 8 (29:30):
Yeah, And I'll obey that, but also have my problems, Yeah,
but why can't I You can have your problems with.
Speaker 7 (29:38):
The menu, Yes, exactly, it's not okay, now this person,
at least we know the rules of engagement.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, I asked about during COVID, so many restaurants that
wouldn't normally have takeout started offering that because one people
couldn't go into the restaurants. So that's kind of something
that Lori, the industry analyst, was kind of suggesting as
a workaround. Yeah, obviously it's not the same as dining.
But if you really want this food and you're going
(30:03):
to pay the surcharge of the takeout thing, but if
you need that tender meal, you can get it from the.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
The place is getting like just in order for like
a diet cook and envisioning like a kid on the
other end, like exactly replacing the.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Order and they're paying. Like but yeah, so that's something
where the industry is shifting, and maybe you know, on
a long enough timeline, out of pure necessity, you will
be able to disorder anything. Mm hmm, that.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Will yeah, Because yeah, I mean, ultimately, I feel like
I'm cooler with the idea in general of like restaurants
being a bit more expensive if the people who work
there are paid fairly and you're willing to pay, and
that supports it, like on one condition, you allow me
to order from the kids menu, because you've made it
sustainable for you, Like, I will pay the sustainable price.
(30:56):
And I feel like we should be more accustomed to
get you of paying more are for privileges, which it
is to go to this fine establishment and watch Dune
and get like, you know, I'm literally getting alcohol brought
to me to watch a movie.
Speaker 6 (31:09):
I will pay for.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Whatever makes it work for them for them to give
me just basic chicken fingers and fries.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
I guess I wonder how many adults actually would want that.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
I know how in this room there's fifty percent in
the general population.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I wonder what it would be. I think it would
be fifty. It's probably one.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
You know, like those those things that would do with
like de Jorn did, where people be like, oh my god,
I love this restaurants.
Speaker 6 (31:35):
Actually we would do that, but we would put people
and kids portion yeah, what do you think? And then
they're gonna go it's fine.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
That was the kids that the kids, and guess what
you're paying?
Speaker 5 (31:49):
Yeah, or ten dollars more for that.
Speaker 6 (31:51):
No, they would leave so happy. They would be like,
oh my god. And but that's again big food doesn't want.
Speaker 5 (31:56):
To just know that.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Hells than.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
No such Thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Our
executive producers are Kate Osbourne and Mangeshatza Cadur. The show
was created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, and Devin Joseph.
Theme and credits music by Manny. Our guest this week
was Kate Lindsay from the Icy m I podcast and
embedded newsletter. And thank you to our experts in the field,
Laurie Racodzi, anonymous movie theater employee, and my amazing server
(32:25):
at Apple Piece. We couldn't have done this without you.
For more, please visit No Such Thing dot show. You
can subscribe to our newsletter and get a little bit
more insight into the episodes, and if you have feedback
for us or our question, our email addresses Manny Noah
Devin at gmail dot com. If you're in the US,
you can also leave us a voicemail by calling the
number in our show notes. We'll be back next week
with a new episode. Thanks, Hell's Hell's, Hell's, Hell's such Thing.
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