March 11, 2025 • 38 mins
It’s been known for years now that men aren’t the best at asking follow-up questions on dates with women. But a more specific version of this phenomenon has emerged: men aren’t even asking other men follow-up questions, even their good friends! With the help of “mindful masculinity” expert Liz Plank, we get to the bottom of why men don’t know anything about their male friends, and we put our own friendship to the test.
For more, including links to some of the research cited in this episode, visit our website.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Manny Noah, and this is no such thing. The
show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by
actually doing the research. On today's episode, we're asking why
men don't ask follow up questions. We're gonna be talking
to masculinity expert Liz Plank, who helps Noah, Devon and
I figure out how much we actually know about each other.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You should know who their axes like, who their like
last breakup was with.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
That's interesting and gives us a very special assignment. There's
no no such thing such thing. All right, boys, I
(00:50):
think we're all congested up today. Apologies to the listeners.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Sounds sexy today, sound a little nasty.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
It is funny. We're all how did this happen? At
the same time. I haven't seen you guys.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
In a while, and then it's been a minute.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I wanted to start off this episode by playing a TikTok.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I'm going to order a beerd woman.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Now, I'm good.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
I just got out of rehab, right, Okay, So how Samantha,
how's married life?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (01:17):
I didn't tell you we got divorced.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
You want to put together like a little parlay for
this weekend?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Hell? Yes?
Speaker 4 (01:24):
What do you want to do It's like fifty dollars something.
I just got fired from the firm last week. Maybe
it was two twenty five. Fuck it, Fuck it, dude,
I got hit by a city bus last month.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
All had the settlement.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Money just came in.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
I got you.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah. So that video is a joke, obviously it's hyperbolized. Yeah,
but it's still resonated with me because I've definitely been
there before, Like I've like we have male friendships like this.
I would like to think that the three of us
are like a different breed of man, like a morse,
(01:58):
like a like more sensitive, I think than the average person.
Who we do ask each other follow up questions. We
care about what's happening in our lives. But I do
have friends like friends I would consider close friends, and
I know what they do in work, but I don't know,
I couldn't name like the name of their company, for example,
(02:19):
do you guys run into this, Like what what's your
experience with this kind of phenomenon?
Speaker 6 (02:23):
Watching that video, I was thinking, like last week I
was I had a call with a friend of ours
that we used to work with, and you know, then
we're just chatting and and he was like, oh yeah,
like you know, like my wife's having our second kid
in April. And it was like he was like, oh yeah,
I wasn't sure if I mentioned that or not. And
it was like, oh, like that's a pretty big big
thing for me to not know and happening soon. And
(02:47):
you know, to be fair, it's not like we I
don't chat with him every week or as frequently, like, yeah,
that was one of you guys having a.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Kid in three months.
Speaker 6 (02:54):
Yeah, I'd be shocked for It's like, oh, yeah, I
guess it just means we don't really talk that much.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, do you guys have like close friends who you
think this kind of applies to this, this phenomenon, I
guess you'd call it.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I don't like the prize, so I think it's different.
Speaker 7 (03:09):
If it comes up in conversation, I will ask follow
up questions if that person brings it up themselves, yeah yeah.
But if someone doesn't come to me with the information,
I'm not someone who's gonna ask that question. That's like
going to make somebody uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (03:22):
That that's exactly how I feel, And I think that's
to me, that's what it is, Like, I'm.
Speaker 5 (03:27):
Overall a pretty live and let live sort of.
Speaker 6 (03:30):
Yeah, guys, So it's like if someone wants to talk
to me about something serious or whatever, like whatever, Like
I hope I'm receptive and you know, someone they'd feel
comfortable talking to me about anything. Yeah, but like, yeah,
I don't want to put someone on the spot in
that way if they don't want to open up to
me in that way, because that's how I kind of
feel where and sometimes there's things where it is helpful
(03:51):
for someone to kind.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
Of push you, yeah, to be like it.
Speaker 6 (03:53):
Yeah, I mean this is just it is good usually
to listen, yeah, be pushed into maybe an uncomfortable conversation
of course, and open.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Up in that way.
Speaker 6 (04:01):
But yeah, like in a normal setting, it's it is uncomfortable,
and I don't want to put that on someone else.
Speaker 5 (04:07):
To do it, like if they don't want to naturally.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
You know, how much of this do you think is gendered?
Like the other day, I was listening to my girlfriend
talk on the phone with her sisters about I don't know,
like our week, and she was really going into detail
about certain things that I was like, no, not nothing
like offensive, but no, no, it was just like oh wow,
(04:32):
And then I thought about if I talked to my
siblings and they asked me how my week went, I'd
be like, it was good, it went to work, Yeah, yeah,
everything was fine.
Speaker 5 (04:41):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
I noticed this all the time.
Speaker 7 (04:43):
When I talk to my mom, she tells details about
like what she's done for today, or just like a
story at least sometimes I'm like, okay, I don't even.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Know that level of detail.
Speaker 7 (04:53):
Yeah, but she yeah, she'll go into she'd be like, oh, yeah,
you know, I pulled them in the park lot and
then this thing happened, and then I was talking to
this person and they said this thing. And to your point,
when I'm talking to people, like if people are I'm
like kind of straight into the point because I'm always
thinking they don't care about this. Yeah, let me just
say what's essential. I think you know, this is you know,
(05:16):
broad strokes. We understand stereotyping, but I think women generally
are more specific in their storytelling and and the questions
that they asked, the follow ups that sort of thing,
and guys are just short of what what what do
I need to know?
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, and contextualizing things before the story even begins.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Yes, So like I run into this a lot with my.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Sister or with me, where like there's a lot of
like lore that happens first and then you get the
story that whereas I would just start for exactly the
beginning of the story before we.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Even get into it. You got to know that, like.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, yeah, but then it's ends up being helpful.
Speaker 7 (05:56):
It's like much better storytellers that.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
No.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
Yeah, I've definitely had a like similar situations where you know,
I'm hanging out with some guy friend and then I
go home and you know, I'm talking to my girlfriend
and I'm you know, say, oh, like he told me
this about X y Z. And then she's like, oh,
and what about you know, a normal follow up and
it's like, yeah, I don't know, I didn't ask kind
of none of my business, I guess, but.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Yeah, maybe you can find out when he's.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Maybe you can ask the followup questions.
Speaker 6 (06:27):
We all getdrinks together, and yeah, we can get to
the bottom of Yah, it's like didn't come up.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
So you know, it's not just a meme, right, there's
like a lot of a lot of literature on this.
As a few examples, Bustle dot com head why don't
men ask me more questions on dates? So there we've
been talking about conversations with friends, but a lot of
this phenomenon seems to be in the dating world. Uh,
(06:58):
San Diego Magazine, Why don't men ask questions on apps?
Speaker 5 (07:01):
Courts?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
The gendered way we ask questions is terrible for both
men and women. And so it's definitely something that's like
real and happening.
Speaker 7 (07:10):
I feel most of the conversation or literature I've seen
around this has been more so in terms of dating.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
I've seen less sort of.
Speaker 7 (07:19):
Conversations around well until more recently friendships, which I find
to be more interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I think.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I don't know. For me, it's like the.
Speaker 7 (07:29):
Dating thing is just so many, so easy to ask
follow us because you don't know anything about this person.
Speaker 5 (07:34):
That's all you have.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yes, that's more confusing to me.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
So you're you're either monologuing yes and not asking anything
about the other person or yeah, I mean yeah, it's
like there's not really much else you can do, and
one person is just gonna literally talk the entire time,
which happens, I suppose.
Speaker 7 (07:53):
And look, and maybe we should get people who have
dated or went on dates of all of us. Yeah, response,
because obviously we're biased, because we're saying.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Oh, on dates, we all ask follow up questions.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, but it's us. Well, I certainly remember, like years ago,
I was we didn't even go on a date, but
I was we were like kind of it was leading
to a date, I think. And I remember, uh, that
woman telling a friend of mine that I talked too
much or something in our in our interaction. Oh, but
then I remember, I just remembered it totally differently. So
(08:26):
just to your point about like the bias that we
have in our own heads, we're probably so interesting to
ourselves in our heads.
Speaker 7 (08:33):
Maybe the people were dating or like these dudes don't
ask any following Yeah.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
Yeah, And I think there's probably something to it where
in a dating scenario where you don't know the other person,
I can think of dates I've been on where I
think I've overtalked in a way because the other person
seems to not be maybe giving me anything. So it's like, well,
that's just what it is, and then got nothing you know, spoiler,
that's not the my girlfriend. Yeah, so you know it's
(09:00):
you know, and like or it's like you're so worried
about not about being the person who doesn't talk that
then you go too much in the other direction.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
And the other reason I'm more interested in this dynamic
when it comes to friends than dating is because dating
it there's so many variables of like people are nervous
on dates, they might be doing things they wouldn't normally
do when you're when if it's your friend who you've
known for years and you still aren't asked follow up questions,
it becomes a little more interesting. There's certainly, like I'm
(09:31):
sure we all have this where we have different like
tiers of friends or like caliber friend Like there are
friends you have where you go for a drink and
get into deep stuff. You have other friends where you're like,
I want to want to watch the game tonight or
something like that, and so you know, there's all these
different roles in dynamics being played.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
Well, yeah, there's a time and place for things too.
I mean that's a lot of it too, where it's like, yeah,
of course it's great to everyone should have some people
they can open up to and talk to. At the
same time, you don't want to be the guy who
every time you're getting dinner, now it's like you're hearing
all my drama and my deep.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
You know, it's like not everyone needs to be that
for every person, or should.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Be so as a little as a little uh game.
I guess if I told you, guys, uh that I
just got out of the hospital, what would you what
would your reaction be?
Speaker 5 (10:23):
Damn?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, No, I'm doing all right.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
What happened?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Got in a car accident?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So these are you guys are close enough to asking
follow up questions? You're not just like, damn, I'm sorry.
And then that's where the conversation ends. I just wanted
to test.
Speaker 5 (10:42):
You, guys.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Great does I'll be throwing a real one out in
real life somewhere. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
Yeah, in a while, do a project veritasas.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
All right, we will be talking to Liz Plank.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
She's an expert in many things, but for the purposes
of this episode today, she's an expert on men in masculinity.
She's got a famous book, I would consider it famous
by now, called for the Love of Men From Toxic
to a More Mindful Masculinity. And she's gonna hopefully break
this down for us. That's after the break.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Can you guys hear me? Now?
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Hey, good you too.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
First of all, thank you for doing this. Huge helps us.
We brought you on for this central question why don't
men ask follow up questions? But first, I was curious
in your experience, how have you dealt with this? Have
you run into this in your personal life? Are there
any notable incidents that you can remember?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Like far too many probably to recall, if I'm gonna
be honest, if you're a woman going on.
Speaker 8 (11:54):
Dates with men, I think particularly it is just yeah,
part of a part of the ex I think, to
become like a late night host, like where you're just like, okay,
I guess I'm David Letterman, like I'm just gonna ask
you questions and make you feel great about your life,
and while I just entertain an audience that doesn't exist and.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Get absolutely nothing in return. I think in terms of
first dates, it is just so rampant. I think it's
it's a real epidemic of like going on a date
and then leaving and being like, Wow, this man does
not know a thing about me and like and and
had a great time, which which you would have a
great time, right if if you just talk about yourself,
(12:40):
I'm sure you'd all have a great time. But who Yeah,
when they want to go on a second date, you're
like that was great. You're like, what was it?
Speaker 5 (12:48):
Do you like?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Tell me one thing? Like you want to quiz them
you get one reason why they like you? Do guys
think about that on dates.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
I've been out of the game, so to speak, for
a while, but yeah, like back in, you know, in
that time. I think I would notice on the few
occasions where I felt like I've talked too much, I
would notice, like when it was too late, I guess,
like towards towards the end of a spiel or something
like that. I'd be like, oh, wait a second, I
gotta take a step back. For anyone who's listening, who
would like to hear like a bit of advice about
(13:25):
what to do if they're in that situation, if they're
on a date with a guy and they just are like,
oh my god, I can't believe this. What should they do?
What should they say?
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Something that I think women, you know, could do better, right,
and and sort of practice is like being being less
people pleasing, right, and being less focused on making the
other person comfortable over their own comfort. Right. So I
think that if you're not having a good time, if
(13:54):
you're bored, don't hide it, you know, because I think
so many times, especially with think when I was younger,
I would just kind of like still keep like a
smile and like just again keep throwing questions even though
I was pissed. And Yeah, like I noticed that with
age and with time, Like if I did act the
way that I felt, which was like I'm a little
(14:16):
bored right now, I'd like look down at the menu
or look at my I wouldn't look at my phone,
like I wouldn't do something as rude as that, but
sort of like not act super interested if I'm not
super interested in your answer at this point, I think
that would be like my recommendation of just being like truthful.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
We've established that this is happening in like people's dating lives,
but it also seems to be a phenomenon in conversations
from one man to another man like who are friends?
And I'm curious do do men and women behave differently
in conversation? Like do we have different goals?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Goals?
Speaker 3 (15:01):
What?
Speaker 1 (15:01):
What has your experience and your expertise told you about
that kind of dynamic.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah, there's this you know concept that women tend to
have face to face friendships and men have uh sort
of side to side friendships. So it's the idea that
you know, women usually will tend to go to brunch together,
go to dinner, you know, do get smoothie and be
face to face and really be connecting, I think in
(15:34):
a more intimate way. And men tend to go see
you know, like a basketball game, or they go to
the bar and they're sitting at the bar right so
they're not facing each other. They're actually like shoulder to shoulder.
And so the yeah, level of intimacy I think is
is very often different if you're engaging from that, you
know perspective. So I think that it is harder for
(15:57):
men to go deep, you know, with other men.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
One thing you said that kind of blew my mind
is that concept of face to face versus side by side,
because now I'm like thinking back on like most of
my friendships with men, and it is like we're always
there's like some central thing happening that we're both experiencing
versus you know, sitting across from each other at a
table and talking. We'll be seeing it watching a game
(16:32):
or a movie or something like that.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Do you think it would be weird if you were like,
do you want to get dinner instead? Like, do you
think that that would be difficult?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
There are a few people, a few men in my
life who I could go to dinner with or go
grab a drink where we're sitting across from each other,
but like the vast majority, you know, I would be like, yeah,
there needs to be a basketball game. Why?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Why? Why? I think is it safer?
Speaker 7 (16:57):
Like when you're at a dinner, it's like you and
the other that is the entertainment for tonight. And if
you don't have anything to say, you can't just be like, well,
we're just going to be silent and watch this thing happening.
Speaker 6 (17:08):
I can't just like list basketball players. Yeah, well you can.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah. There's this sort of ranking, right that is inherently
there in all of these conversations that somehow like female
friendship is sort of better than that male friendship, right
because it's more intimate because it's face to face. And
I think that there are also downsides to some of
the I think female friendships are like very intense. I
(17:38):
don't want to say I don't want to talk about
how I'm feeling right now, Like there's a lot of
heavy things going on and I don't really and I
know that if I meet up with a female friend,
she's going to ask me how I'm doing, She's gonna
ask me follow up questions. She's if I just like
brush it off and give her a vague, you know,
superficial answer, like it's probably not going to be enough.
And I think that there are also downsides to the intensity,
(17:59):
where you know, they're like there's way more friendship breakups
with women, like you'll very rarely, like like there's a
whole Roman Empire friend right that men think about the
Roman Empire like so often. And this guy like asked
his girlfriend, like, what's your Roman Empire? And she was like,
my ex best friend, and like every woman was like, yes,
(18:21):
like god's my Roman Empire because we all And I think,
like men don't necessarily like have an ex best friend,
but like almost every woman does.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah, there's this kind of consensus that it's a lot
easier for two men to become friends than it is
for women. But that actually makes sense if the depth
of that friendship is very surface level. It feels like
Toddler's becoming friends versus a very intentional interaction that you
want to have.
Speaker 7 (18:48):
It's like you're at the you know, like you're at
the park and you're like, well, we both like this
slide friends, Yeah, let's meet up and like go down
the slide. And then sometimes we won't like go down
the slide for you know, a couple of months. But
that's fine because I don't expect to do anything with
you besides like going down the slide, Whereas.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
With women, it's like, why haven't you gone down the slide?
Why aren't you here? Like are you mad at me? Like,
let's talk about it, let's meet up outside of the slide,
like it just would be Again, it's very I would
never like ever want to trade places, but I like,
I really value those friendships. They're so they're so intimate,
(19:27):
and I think sometimes actually like female friendships are so
rich and so intimate and you feel so supported that
it can make relationships with men harder because you're like,
no man will ever compare right, And in a way,
I think that it's important for women to not compare
(19:48):
right like that. We I think we do again not
to generalize it all men are one way or all
women are one way, but I do think that men, yeah,
relate in different ways and will provide, you know, different
things to women. In our relationships than like female friendships
are supposed to.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah. So when it comes to kind of this central question,
there is this socio linguist named Deborah Tannen who kind
of offers up one explanation, which is that the goals
that men have in conversation are different than the goals
that women have in conversation. And you touched on this
a little bit, but she she mentions that men are
trying to exhibit knowledge and skill storytelling, joking, or imparting information,
(20:29):
whereas women are more often trying to develop connections and
discover similarities. I wanted to ask you, like, how accurate
does that sound to you? Is that that? Has that
been your experience in your in your research?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, I love I love her as a researcher, I think, yeah,
she provides really interesting insights and and certainly yeah, like
and again, if you think about how we reward women
and men in our society, men are rewarded by, you know,
against status, right, like how much money do you have
or how successful are you? How much knowledge do you have? Right?
(21:09):
So in conversations, of course you're going to be focused
on providing that, right or that will be a priority, Right,
when you're entering conversations, and for women, you know, it's
it's not as much status but more Yeah, are you
nurturing right? Are you able to care for people? Are
you able to connect with people? Or do people like you? Right?
(21:31):
And I think that that is why we come into
conversations very differently. And actually men and women can be punished,
right if they do what is expected of the opposite gender. Right,
if I were to come into a conversation and just
talk about all my accomplishments and like try and prove
that I'm.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
Better than you.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Again, I'm not saying that when men do that it's
like super attractive to everybody, but it's definitely of transgression,
right of how women are supposed to act. So yeah,
it's not just that we have those like proclivities, but
that we are rewarded, right socially for you know, indulging
(22:13):
in those proclivities and like and sort of engaging in
those dynamics. I think that we're moving towards definition of
masculinity that is like much more empathetic and or just
in general, I think our society is more interested in
like EQ than IQ. Our workplaces certainly reward EQ more
than IQ, and so I do think we're moving in
(22:35):
that direction, but I think men are still, you know,
sort of stuck between an old and a new model
and like adjusting to that.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
So we've learned that men, or heterosexual men at least,
are simply kind of socialized to extract certain things from conversations,
and those things differ greatly to what women are trying
to extract from conversations. But one thing that Noah mentioned
earlier in this episode that struck me is that sometimes
(23:08):
when he's talking to another man, he doesn't necessarily want
to put that person into this vulnerable situation where where
they feel like they should share something even if they
don't want to.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
I think that's what it is, where it's like, I
don't want to put you in a position where you
feel weird or like I'm trying even though it's like
normal information and't I wouldn't feel uncomfortable if you asked
that follow up upon me, But I don't want to
be the person putting you there.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
But it's also that putting a man into in a
vulnerable quote unquote position has different implications than putting a
woman in a vulnerable position. Right, if I were to
see yeah, female friend cry or tell me that she's
yeah hurting, and for me to'd be like, oh my god,
what's going on? Like, you know, and for her to
be emotional or be vulnerable like that's not a threat
(23:59):
to her gender identity. It's not a threat to it's
it's not transgressive, right, like in a way that it
is for men right to be vulnerable. And so I
think that a lot of men. I really appreciate you
saying that, because I hear that a lot. Right. If
I did that to a female friend, it's because I
don't give a shit, Like it literally would just be
(24:20):
like mean, right, Like I would have to like literally
hate her do that. But when a guy does it,
it has a whole there's a whole other intention there behind,
or a whole other like motivation, and uh, it's and
it's a different thing, you know, because of how honestly
like dangerous it can be for a guy to be
(24:40):
vulnerable in uh you know, and and that men don't
men don't necessarily want to put another man in that situation,
not because they don't care, because they care about them, right,
So it's out of love sometimes that I think you
pull back.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
So that's actually a perfect segue into this segment that
we want to do after the break. Basically, Devin, Noah
and I would like to think that we know each
other pretty well, partially because we do ask each other
follow up questions. But we want to put that to
the test, and so, Liz, we're gonna ask you to
(25:17):
come up with three things that you think good friends
should know about each other, and then the three of
us are going to take that quiz and see how
we fare. Okay, but that's after the break. Welcome to
a game show titled do Manny, Noah and Devin know
(25:41):
literally one single thing about each other?
Speaker 8 (25:45):
Live?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
We're here with special guests Liz Plank. Why don't we
go ahead and get started with question number one?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I feel like you should know your best friend's middle name.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I think, yes, we're already losing.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, I'm thinking of.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I'm sweating basic. So why don't we start in the
in the order of how we say the name show? Yeah,
So I'll go first. You guys gotta have to guess
my middle name, okay, or do you know my middle name?
Speaker 3 (26:17):
I thought I did, but now I don't.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Well, this one's already hard because my family is from Eritrea,
and the naming convention there is so much different than
it is in the Western world. Basically, you don't have
a family name necessarily, you do like your lineage.
Speaker 5 (26:32):
You get your name.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Your middle name is your dad's name, and your last
name is your grandfather's name. And so my dad's name
is blank blank Fidel, and growing up, we were hanging
out at his auto repair shop, Fidel Auto Repair, and
I've been using that as kind of my professional stage name,
(26:54):
even though the way it works in Eritrea is that
my middle name is my dad's name and my last
name is my grandfather's name, which is Oakbosgi. But take
all of that and throw it out the window, because
my dad decided to buck the lineage trend and give
me a middle name. I'm not sure if I've ever
told you guys this. It starts with a B.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Benjamin Yeah, yeah, Well it's.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Pronounced differently exactly ben yam.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
Okay, Well yeah, we had no shot.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
That Yeah all right, No, uh, isn't it something like
Clark or something like that. It's something that's way more.
Speaker 9 (27:32):
Let's just start with I don't want to say it,
but b oh is it also it's.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Not Benjamin, is it? Holy shit? All right, we are
failing terribly.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
I know that's funny.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Damn all right, Devin.
Speaker 5 (27:50):
Devon's already got two first names.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
You guys should kind of notice one. I know.
Speaker 6 (27:54):
I feel like I definitely will have known it once
I hear it.
Speaker 7 (27:57):
There's a I will say there's a celebrity connection, not
actually not why actually yes, but why we've talked about it.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Devin James.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
Yes, yeah, I like Jordan.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Devin James, and just for the listeners, the three of
us are huge fans of Kevin James.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
We've seen him live and.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
So wow, that's hilarious. I don't think I knew that,
all right, So Liz would be pretty disappointed in us
so far.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Hey, we got it right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
No, no, no, but now I'm actually gonna remember this.
The problem is we just didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
But it's like middle names are tough.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, they don't come up really no, okay.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Number two, they're astrological signs, like I feel like you
need to know which kails it, you know their birthday.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
I don't know the signs either, but vague I think
I can get your guys' birthday. So let's let's start
with mine.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yours is this is kind of She's unfair.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
It did just happen, but the party was not on
the day.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Okay, yeah, the eleventh.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Al right, so we got Manny all right. Noah is
August the first, who almost aid third? And Devin is
September seventh.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Wow, killed it all right? Liz not happy for question
number one. Liz very happy for question number two. Question
number three is kind of spicy.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
You should know who their exes like, who their like
last breakup was with. You should be able to give
a one line at least about why the breakup happened.
That's If you can't, I'm gonna die. Are you serious.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Previous breakup and why?
Speaker 5 (29:47):
And why? So?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And now are we considering literally the last person you
called a partner?
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Or that's what I was going to ask. Is this
a situationship?
Speaker 6 (29:59):
Very based on you know, I would say more serious?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
All right, so we'll start with me.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
It's not a trick question, it's it should be easy.
Speaker 7 (30:13):
Yeah, wow, I thought there had to be someone someone else.
Speaker 6 (30:17):
Yeah, yeah, okay, why I have no idea?
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I mean this one, this one's hard too, because it's
like there's not one reason.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
Yeah, why where do I beg give?
Speaker 1 (30:28):
It's actually one hundred. I mean, I don't think that
it was one person not a good match. Yeah, I
think for a long we were young and stupid.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
What year was that?
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Actually I remember it vividly because it was during the
World Cup, so it's twenty eighteen, broken, I remember, Holy shit,
I remember the eighteen Yeah, whoa.
Speaker 6 (30:50):
I guess that makes sense if then you had a
couple of years of nothing and COVID.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
It wasn't nothing, it was Yeah. I remember of the
World Cup being like kind of saving my ass in
terms of just like, oh, a big breakup happened. But
now I'm yeah, I'm a huge fan of the beautiful game.
All right, all right, Noah, is this the obvious one?
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Probably?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Now I'm blinking on her name.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
And I'm kind of blinking on her name is Yeah.
The why, to the best of my recollection, I don't know.
She just kind of didn't seem about it that life.
Speaker 9 (31:33):
Yeah, yeah, I don't think we saw an eye on
what we wanted at the time.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
So, yeah, it ran its.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Scores as well. Fair fair enough, Devin, We all know
this one because it was big news.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
This is.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Correct, Okay, the reason why though, I mean, I guess
there's a couple of reasons.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
There wasn't like a big fight or anything, so it's
not as fun.
Speaker 5 (32:00):
Yeah, that was a good one, because this is the issue.
Speaker 7 (32:02):
I think the issue with this is we're we gave
ourselves the easy way out. What do you mean because
we said relationships in that situationships?
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Oh yeah, situationships.
Speaker 7 (32:12):
I think if we asked, she would know all her
friends sitationships.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yep, yep, that's true.
Speaker 6 (32:19):
And I'll also say it's interesting because like we're saying
things but like that was never a conversation we had.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, yeah, Like I remember.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
You texted us, Yeah, you told us he broke up.
Speaker 9 (32:29):
Yeah, And I think we were both like, oh, damn,
that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
That's crazy. I think in the text I remember saying
something stupid like damn end of an era or something.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
That was pretty good. Season finale.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Just when you thought this episode was over, Liz had
one more challenge for us.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
When's the last time that like one of you three
shared uh difficulty, like a challenging situation, a relationship issue,
a work issue.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Well, it's Funny you mentioned earlier that men don't give
themselves a chance to go deeper because they're always watching
like a basketball game. Because Noah and I literally made
plans to watch the Lakers at a bar after this.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
Yeah, I won.
Speaker 6 (33:20):
Not be sharing any personal information out there.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Why don't you guys share a personal each share a
personal struggle that's going on for you, and then you
can talk about how it felt.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
All right, well, then I can go first. Mine is
this this medicine I've been taking?
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Oh yeah, so last year.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Hey, I won't bore you guys with the actual conversation,
but I will summarize it. Basically. I talked about the
complications I'm having with some medication taking. Devin shared that
he's trying to find a balance between work that he
loves and work that gets him paid, and Noah shared
(34:10):
that he's been trying to identify what his priorities are
these days. The conversation lasted about thirty minutes, and then
we talked about what it felt like to share these
struggles with each other. How did that feel, guys sharing
(34:33):
your personal struggles with the boys. I guess I can
go first. If obviously it's like good to kind of
get something off your chest or say something very personal.
It feels therapeutic, YadA YadA. What I just said wasn't
necessarily like a secret or something that I should have
told you but hadn't yet. So I kind of feel like, yeah,
(34:55):
if we were bowling and I had a drink or something,
I might be complaining about that, and then yeah, it
would have come up naturally. There can only be good
to gain from like sharing that with someone. But how
did you guys feel?
Speaker 6 (35:07):
Obviously, because of the construction of this, it's a little
different because like, yeah, not that we're forced to do it,
but it's like it's being set up in a different way.
We're on mics, I mean, but you know, and yeah,
I don't think it was like I'm not pouring out
the depths of my soul, you know. But at the
same time, it's like, well, these aren't things that we
really would talk about normally. I don't think I would
(35:30):
want every conversation to be like this. Yeah, it's like
there's a balance, I guess, But I think, you know,
sprinkling in a little bore wouldn't hurt me.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
I guess. It's also the way you talk about something
where like if I had brought up the medicine, if
I was like a couple of beers deep or something,
I'd be talking about in a completely different way than
like sharing that what I'm struggling with, right, Yeah, yeah,
so it does help, I guess to be like, Okay,
here's what what's going on? Yeah, versus you know, just
(36:03):
shouting at someone over loud music.
Speaker 5 (36:05):
Yeah, but it was it's nice to do.
Speaker 6 (36:08):
Yeah, I'll probably be sharing more in MI nend or
trying to keep the door open a little bit, versus
being like, oh that sucks, yeah crazy, well, like my
chicken tenders already, you know, like you know what I mean,
Let's have some fun and try to just be a
little more open or receptive to that in case that
is what someone's looking for.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Yeah, you know, in that moment.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, it certainly it did prove kind of Liz's hypothesis,
but I guess it's not necessarily hers. But she was
talking about how we're just kind of socialized differently than women,
and we're socialized to want different things from conversations. It
never occurred to me to tell you guys that medicine thing,
(36:49):
because I don't know why. Maybe in my head, I'm like,
they don't why would they care about this? Or like
but yeah, just never occurred to me.
Speaker 7 (36:56):
Yeah, I agree with No, this didn't feel like a
groundbreaking like, yeah, I don't know this is their right
circumstances for us to have.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Like, yeah we would, Yeah, and I don't know that
it was of the.
Speaker 7 (37:11):
I do think to Know's point, it will be in
the back of my head now because it seems like
we're all open to talking about stuff.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
Yeah. Yeah, it's just like.
Speaker 7 (37:19):
We don't want to prod so it puts more of
the like the person telling the thing just has to
volunteer more information. Yeah, that's true in our dynamic, like
that's the only way we're gonna Like I think if
one of us volunteered more information, then we would.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Ask more questions.
Speaker 9 (37:35):
But pretty surface level, we're just sort of like, cool,
Yeah that's all you match, mat Yeah exactly. So I
think after this, yeah, I'll maybe be more proactive about
if it's a thing I want to talk about, opening
the door a bit more like.
Speaker 6 (37:51):
Yeah, next time Devin breaks up with a girlfriend of
eight years, I'm gonna ask.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Why thanks for listening to our confessions. This was no
Such Thing by Manny, Noah and Devin. The theme song
was produced by me Manny. Thank you so much to
(38:16):
our guest Liz Plank, whose book For the Love of
Men is out everywhere. If you thought that this conversation
was even a little bit insightful, you're gonna love that book.
If you like the show, we're asking you to give
us a five star rating on wherever you're listening. We're
doing this show by ourselves and could use every little
bit of help from people who enjoy it. And also
(38:38):
be sure to subscribe to our substack at No Such
Thing dot show. We'll see you next week.
I'm Manny Noah, and this is no such thing. The
show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by
actually doing the research. On today's episode, we're asking why
men don't ask follow up questions. We're gonna be talking
to masculinity expert Liz Plank, who helps Noah, Devon and
I figure out how much we actually know about each other.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
You should know who their axes like, who their like
last breakup was with.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
That's interesting and gives us a very special assignment. There's
no no such thing such thing. All right, boys, I
(00:50):
think we're all congested up today. Apologies to the listeners.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Sounds sexy today, sound a little nasty.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
It is funny. We're all how did this happen? At
the same time. I haven't seen you guys.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
In a while, and then it's been a minute.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I wanted to start off this episode by playing a TikTok.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I'm going to order a beerd woman.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Now, I'm good.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
I just got out of rehab, right, Okay, So how Samantha,
how's married life?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (01:17):
I didn't tell you we got divorced.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
You want to put together like a little parlay for
this weekend?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Hell? Yes?
Speaker 4 (01:24):
What do you want to do It's like fifty dollars something.
I just got fired from the firm last week. Maybe
it was two twenty five. Fuck it, Fuck it, dude,
I got hit by a city bus last month.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
All had the settlement.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Money just came in.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
I got you.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah. So that video is a joke, obviously it's hyperbolized. Yeah,
but it's still resonated with me because I've definitely been
there before, Like I've like we have male friendships like this.
I would like to think that the three of us
are like a different breed of man, like a morse,
(01:58):
like a like more sensitive, I think than the average person.
Who we do ask each other follow up questions. We
care about what's happening in our lives. But I do
have friends like friends I would consider close friends, and
I know what they do in work, but I don't know,
I couldn't name like the name of their company, for example,
(02:19):
do you guys run into this, Like what what's your
experience with this kind of phenomenon?
Speaker 6 (02:23):
Watching that video, I was thinking, like last week I
was I had a call with a friend of ours
that we used to work with, and you know, then
we're just chatting and and he was like, oh yeah,
like you know, like my wife's having our second kid
in April. And it was like he was like, oh yeah,
I wasn't sure if I mentioned that or not. And
it was like, oh, like that's a pretty big big
thing for me to not know and happening soon. And
(02:47):
you know, to be fair, it's not like we I
don't chat with him every week or as frequently, like, yeah,
that was one of you guys having a.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Kid in three months.
Speaker 6 (02:54):
Yeah, I'd be shocked for It's like, oh, yeah, I
guess it just means we don't really talk that much.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, do you guys have like close friends who you
think this kind of applies to this, this phenomenon, I
guess you'd call it.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
I don't like the prize, so I think it's different.
Speaker 7 (03:09):
If it comes up in conversation, I will ask follow
up questions if that person brings it up themselves, yeah yeah.
But if someone doesn't come to me with the information,
I'm not someone who's gonna ask that question. That's like
going to make somebody uncomfortable.
Speaker 6 (03:22):
That that's exactly how I feel, And I think that's
to me, that's what it is, Like, I'm.
Speaker 5 (03:27):
Overall a pretty live and let live sort of.
Speaker 6 (03:30):
Yeah, guys, So it's like if someone wants to talk
to me about something serious or whatever, like whatever, Like
I hope I'm receptive and you know, someone they'd feel
comfortable talking to me about anything. Yeah, but like, yeah,
I don't want to put someone on the spot in
that way if they don't want to open up to
me in that way, because that's how I kind of
feel where and sometimes there's things where it is helpful
(03:51):
for someone to kind.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
Of push you, yeah, to be like it.
Speaker 6 (03:53):
Yeah, I mean this is just it is good usually
to listen, yeah, be pushed into maybe an uncomfortable conversation
of course, and open.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Up in that way.
Speaker 6 (04:01):
But yeah, like in a normal setting, it's it is uncomfortable,
and I don't want to put that on someone else.
Speaker 5 (04:07):
To do it, like if they don't want to naturally.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
You know, how much of this do you think is gendered?
Like the other day, I was listening to my girlfriend
talk on the phone with her sisters about I don't know,
like our week, and she was really going into detail
about certain things that I was like, no, not nothing
like offensive, but no, no, it was just like oh wow,
(04:32):
And then I thought about if I talked to my
siblings and they asked me how my week went, I'd
be like, it was good, it went to work, Yeah, yeah,
everything was fine.
Speaker 5 (04:41):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
I noticed this all the time.
Speaker 7 (04:43):
When I talk to my mom, she tells details about
like what she's done for today, or just like a
story at least sometimes I'm like, okay, I don't even.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Know that level of detail.
Speaker 7 (04:53):
Yeah, but she yeah, she'll go into she'd be like, oh, yeah,
you know, I pulled them in the park lot and
then this thing happened, and then I was talking to
this person and they said this thing. And to your point,
when I'm talking to people, like if people are I'm
like kind of straight into the point because I'm always
thinking they don't care about this. Yeah, let me just
say what's essential. I think you know, this is you know,
(05:16):
broad strokes. We understand stereotyping, but I think women generally
are more specific in their storytelling and and the questions
that they asked, the follow ups that sort of thing,
and guys are just short of what what what do
I need to know?
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, and contextualizing things before the story even begins.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Yes, So like I run into this a lot with my.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Sister or with me, where like there's a lot of
like lore that happens first and then you get the
story that whereas I would just start for exactly the
beginning of the story before we.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Even get into it. You got to know that, like.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, yeah, but then it's ends up being helpful.
Speaker 7 (05:56):
It's like much better storytellers that.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
No.
Speaker 6 (06:00):
Yeah, I've definitely had a like similar situations where you know,
I'm hanging out with some guy friend and then I
go home and you know, I'm talking to my girlfriend
and I'm you know, say, oh, like he told me
this about X y Z. And then she's like, oh,
and what about you know, a normal follow up and
it's like, yeah, I don't know, I didn't ask kind
of none of my business, I guess, but.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Yeah, maybe you can find out when he's.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Maybe you can ask the followup questions.
Speaker 6 (06:27):
We all getdrinks together, and yeah, we can get to
the bottom of Yah, it's like didn't come up.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
So you know, it's not just a meme, right, there's
like a lot of a lot of literature on this.
As a few examples, Bustle dot com head why don't
men ask me more questions on dates? So there we've
been talking about conversations with friends, but a lot of
this phenomenon seems to be in the dating world. Uh,
(06:58):
San Diego Magazine, Why don't men ask questions on apps?
Speaker 5 (07:01):
Courts?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
The gendered way we ask questions is terrible for both
men and women. And so it's definitely something that's like
real and happening.
Speaker 7 (07:10):
I feel most of the conversation or literature I've seen
around this has been more so in terms of dating.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
I've seen less sort of.
Speaker 7 (07:19):
Conversations around well until more recently friendships, which I find
to be more interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I think.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I don't know. For me, it's like the.
Speaker 7 (07:29):
Dating thing is just so many, so easy to ask
follow us because you don't know anything about this person.
Speaker 5 (07:34):
That's all you have.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yes, that's more confusing to me.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
So you're you're either monologuing yes and not asking anything
about the other person or yeah, I mean yeah, it's
like there's not really much else you can do, and
one person is just gonna literally talk the entire time,
which happens, I suppose.
Speaker 7 (07:53):
And look, and maybe we should get people who have
dated or went on dates of all of us. Yeah, response,
because obviously we're biased, because we're saying.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Oh, on dates, we all ask follow up questions.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, but it's us. Well, I certainly remember, like years ago,
I was we didn't even go on a date, but
I was we were like kind of it was leading
to a date, I think. And I remember, uh, that
woman telling a friend of mine that I talked too
much or something in our in our interaction. Oh, but
then I remember, I just remembered it totally differently. So
(08:26):
just to your point about like the bias that we
have in our own heads, we're probably so interesting to
ourselves in our heads.
Speaker 7 (08:33):
Maybe the people were dating or like these dudes don't
ask any following Yeah.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
Yeah, And I think there's probably something to it where
in a dating scenario where you don't know the other person,
I can think of dates I've been on where I
think I've overtalked in a way because the other person
seems to not be maybe giving me anything. So it's like, well,
that's just what it is, and then got nothing you know, spoiler,
that's not the my girlfriend. Yeah, so you know it's
(09:00):
you know, and like or it's like you're so worried
about not about being the person who doesn't talk that
then you go too much in the other direction.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
And the other reason I'm more interested in this dynamic
when it comes to friends than dating is because dating
it there's so many variables of like people are nervous
on dates, they might be doing things they wouldn't normally
do when you're when if it's your friend who you've
known for years and you still aren't asked follow up questions,
it becomes a little more interesting. There's certainly, like I'm
(09:31):
sure we all have this where we have different like
tiers of friends or like caliber friend Like there are
friends you have where you go for a drink and
get into deep stuff. You have other friends where you're like,
I want to want to watch the game tonight or
something like that, and so you know, there's all these
different roles in dynamics being played.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
Well, yeah, there's a time and place for things too.
I mean that's a lot of it too, where it's like, yeah,
of course it's great to everyone should have some people
they can open up to and talk to. At the
same time, you don't want to be the guy who
every time you're getting dinner, now it's like you're hearing
all my drama and my deep.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
You know, it's like not everyone needs to be that
for every person, or should.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Be so as a little as a little uh game.
I guess if I told you, guys, uh that I
just got out of the hospital, what would you what
would your reaction be?
Speaker 5 (10:23):
Damn?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, No, I'm doing all right.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
What happened?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Got in a car accident?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (10:32):
So these are you guys are close enough to asking
follow up questions? You're not just like, damn, I'm sorry.
And then that's where the conversation ends. I just wanted
to test.
Speaker 5 (10:42):
You, guys.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Great does I'll be throwing a real one out in
real life somewhere. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
Yeah, in a while, do a project veritasas.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
All right, we will be talking to Liz Plank.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
She's an expert in many things, but for the purposes
of this episode today, she's an expert on men in masculinity.
She's got a famous book, I would consider it famous
by now, called for the Love of Men From Toxic
to a More Mindful Masculinity. And she's gonna hopefully break
this down for us. That's after the break.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Can you guys hear me? Now?
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Hey, good you too.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
First of all, thank you for doing this. Huge helps us.
We brought you on for this central question why don't
men ask follow up questions? But first, I was curious
in your experience, how have you dealt with this? Have
you run into this in your personal life? Are there
any notable incidents that you can remember?
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Like far too many probably to recall, if I'm gonna
be honest, if you're a woman going on.
Speaker 8 (11:54):
Dates with men, I think particularly it is just yeah,
part of a part of the ex I think, to
become like a late night host, like where you're just like, okay,
I guess I'm David Letterman, like I'm just gonna ask
you questions and make you feel great about your life,
and while I just entertain an audience that doesn't exist and.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Get absolutely nothing in return. I think in terms of
first dates, it is just so rampant. I think it's
it's a real epidemic of like going on a date
and then leaving and being like, Wow, this man does
not know a thing about me and like and and
had a great time, which which you would have a
great time, right if if you just talk about yourself,
(12:40):
I'm sure you'd all have a great time. But who Yeah,
when they want to go on a second date, you're
like that was great. You're like, what was it?
Speaker 5 (12:48):
Do you like?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Tell me one thing? Like you want to quiz them
you get one reason why they like you? Do guys
think about that on dates.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
I've been out of the game, so to speak, for
a while, but yeah, like back in, you know, in
that time. I think I would notice on the few
occasions where I felt like I've talked too much, I
would notice, like when it was too late, I guess,
like towards towards the end of a spiel or something
like that. I'd be like, oh, wait a second, I
gotta take a step back. For anyone who's listening, who
would like to hear like a bit of advice about
(13:25):
what to do if they're in that situation, if they're
on a date with a guy and they just are like,
oh my god, I can't believe this. What should they do?
What should they say?
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Something that I think women, you know, could do better, right,
and and sort of practice is like being being less
people pleasing, right, and being less focused on making the
other person comfortable over their own comfort. Right. So I
think that if you're not having a good time, if
(13:54):
you're bored, don't hide it, you know, because I think
so many times, especially with think when I was younger,
I would just kind of like still keep like a
smile and like just again keep throwing questions even though
I was pissed. And Yeah, like I noticed that with
age and with time, Like if I did act the
way that I felt, which was like I'm a little
(14:16):
bored right now, I'd like look down at the menu
or look at my I wouldn't look at my phone,
like I wouldn't do something as rude as that, but
sort of like not act super interested if I'm not
super interested in your answer at this point, I think
that would be like my recommendation of just being like truthful.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
We've established that this is happening in like people's dating lives,
but it also seems to be a phenomenon in conversations
from one man to another man like who are friends?
And I'm curious do do men and women behave differently
in conversation? Like do we have different goals?
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Goals?
Speaker 3 (15:01):
What?
Speaker 1 (15:01):
What has your experience and your expertise told you about
that kind of dynamic.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah, there's this you know concept that women tend to
have face to face friendships and men have uh sort
of side to side friendships. So it's the idea that
you know, women usually will tend to go to brunch together,
go to dinner, you know, do get smoothie and be
face to face and really be connecting, I think in
(15:34):
a more intimate way. And men tend to go see
you know, like a basketball game, or they go to
the bar and they're sitting at the bar right so
they're not facing each other. They're actually like shoulder to shoulder.
And so the yeah, level of intimacy I think is
is very often different if you're engaging from that, you
know perspective. So I think that it is harder for
(15:57):
men to go deep, you know, with other men.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
One thing you said that kind of blew my mind
is that concept of face to face versus side by side,
because now I'm like thinking back on like most of
my friendships with men, and it is like we're always
there's like some central thing happening that we're both experiencing
versus you know, sitting across from each other at a
table and talking. We'll be seeing it watching a game
(16:32):
or a movie or something like that.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Do you think it would be weird if you were like,
do you want to get dinner instead? Like, do you
think that that would be difficult?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
There are a few people, a few men in my
life who I could go to dinner with or go
grab a drink where we're sitting across from each other,
but like the vast majority, you know, I would be like, yeah,
there needs to be a basketball game. Why?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Why? Why? I think is it safer?
Speaker 7 (16:57):
Like when you're at a dinner, it's like you and
the other that is the entertainment for tonight. And if
you don't have anything to say, you can't just be like, well,
we're just going to be silent and watch this thing happening.
Speaker 6 (17:08):
I can't just like list basketball players. Yeah, well you can.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah. There's this sort of ranking, right that is inherently
there in all of these conversations that somehow like female
friendship is sort of better than that male friendship, right
because it's more intimate because it's face to face. And
I think that there are also downsides to some of
the I think female friendships are like very intense. I
(17:38):
don't want to say I don't want to talk about
how I'm feeling right now, Like there's a lot of
heavy things going on and I don't really and I
know that if I meet up with a female friend,
she's going to ask me how I'm doing, She's gonna
ask me follow up questions. She's if I just like
brush it off and give her a vague, you know,
superficial answer, like it's probably not going to be enough.
And I think that there are also downsides to the intensity,
(17:59):
where you know, they're like there's way more friendship breakups
with women, like you'll very rarely, like like there's a
whole Roman Empire friend right that men think about the
Roman Empire like so often. And this guy like asked
his girlfriend, like, what's your Roman Empire? And she was like,
my ex best friend, and like every woman was like, yes,
(18:21):
like god's my Roman Empire because we all And I think,
like men don't necessarily like have an ex best friend,
but like almost every woman does.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah, there's this kind of consensus that it's a lot
easier for two men to become friends than it is
for women. But that actually makes sense if the depth
of that friendship is very surface level. It feels like
Toddler's becoming friends versus a very intentional interaction that you
want to have.
Speaker 7 (18:48):
It's like you're at the you know, like you're at
the park and you're like, well, we both like this
slide friends, Yeah, let's meet up and like go down
the slide. And then sometimes we won't like go down
the slide for you know, a couple of months. But
that's fine because I don't expect to do anything with
you besides like going down the slide, Whereas.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
With women, it's like, why haven't you gone down the slide?
Why aren't you here? Like are you mad at me? Like,
let's talk about it, let's meet up outside of the slide,
like it just would be Again, it's very I would
never like ever want to trade places, but I like,
I really value those friendships. They're so they're so intimate,
(19:27):
and I think sometimes actually like female friendships are so
rich and so intimate and you feel so supported that
it can make relationships with men harder because you're like,
no man will ever compare right, And in a way,
I think that it's important for women to not compare
(19:48):
right like that. We I think we do again not
to generalize it all men are one way or all
women are one way, but I do think that men, yeah,
relate in different ways and will provide, you know, different
things to women. In our relationships than like female friendships
are supposed to.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Yeah. So when it comes to kind of this central question,
there is this socio linguist named Deborah Tannen who kind
of offers up one explanation, which is that the goals
that men have in conversation are different than the goals
that women have in conversation. And you touched on this
a little bit, but she she mentions that men are
trying to exhibit knowledge and skill storytelling, joking, or imparting information,
(20:29):
whereas women are more often trying to develop connections and
discover similarities. I wanted to ask you, like, how accurate
does that sound to you? Is that that? Has that
been your experience in your in your research?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah, I love I love her as a researcher, I think, yeah,
she provides really interesting insights and and certainly yeah, like
and again, if you think about how we reward women
and men in our society, men are rewarded by, you know,
against status, right, like how much money do you have
or how successful are you? How much knowledge do you have? Right?
(21:09):
So in conversations, of course you're going to be focused
on providing that, right or that will be a priority, Right,
when you're entering conversations, and for women, you know, it's
it's not as much status but more Yeah, are you
nurturing right? Are you able to care for people? Are
you able to connect with people? Or do people like you? Right?
(21:31):
And I think that that is why we come into
conversations very differently. And actually men and women can be punished,
right if they do what is expected of the opposite gender. Right,
if I were to come into a conversation and just
talk about all my accomplishments and like try and prove
that I'm.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
Better than you.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Again, I'm not saying that when men do that it's
like super attractive to everybody, but it's definitely of transgression,
right of how women are supposed to act. So yeah,
it's not just that we have those like proclivities, but
that we are rewarded, right socially for you know, indulging
(22:13):
in those proclivities and like and sort of engaging in
those dynamics. I think that we're moving towards definition of
masculinity that is like much more empathetic and or just
in general, I think our society is more interested in
like EQ than IQ. Our workplaces certainly reward EQ more
than IQ, and so I do think we're moving in
(22:35):
that direction, but I think men are still, you know,
sort of stuck between an old and a new model
and like adjusting to that.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
So we've learned that men, or heterosexual men at least,
are simply kind of socialized to extract certain things from conversations,
and those things differ greatly to what women are trying
to extract from conversations. But one thing that Noah mentioned
earlier in this episode that struck me is that sometimes
(23:08):
when he's talking to another man, he doesn't necessarily want
to put that person into this vulnerable situation where where
they feel like they should share something even if they
don't want to.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
I think that's what it is, where it's like, I
don't want to put you in a position where you
feel weird or like I'm trying even though it's like
normal information and't I wouldn't feel uncomfortable if you asked
that follow up upon me, But I don't want to
be the person putting you there.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
But it's also that putting a man into in a
vulnerable quote unquote position has different implications than putting a
woman in a vulnerable position. Right, if I were to
see yeah, female friend cry or tell me that she's
yeah hurting, and for me to'd be like, oh my god,
what's going on? Like, you know, and for her to
be emotional or be vulnerable like that's not a threat
(23:59):
to her gender identity. It's not a threat to it's
it's not transgressive, right, like in a way that it
is for men right to be vulnerable. And so I
think that a lot of men. I really appreciate you
saying that, because I hear that a lot. Right. If
I did that to a female friend, it's because I
don't give a shit, Like it literally would just be
(24:20):
like mean, right, Like I would have to like literally
hate her do that. But when a guy does it,
it has a whole there's a whole other intention there behind,
or a whole other like motivation, and uh, it's and
it's a different thing, you know, because of how honestly
like dangerous it can be for a guy to be
(24:40):
vulnerable in uh you know, and and that men don't
men don't necessarily want to put another man in that situation,
not because they don't care, because they care about them, right,
So it's out of love sometimes that I think you
pull back.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
So that's actually a perfect segue into this segment that
we want to do after the break. Basically, Devin, Noah
and I would like to think that we know each
other pretty well, partially because we do ask each other
follow up questions. But we want to put that to
the test, and so, Liz, we're gonna ask you to
(25:17):
come up with three things that you think good friends
should know about each other, and then the three of
us are going to take that quiz and see how
we fare. Okay, but that's after the break. Welcome to
a game show titled do Manny, Noah and Devin know
(25:41):
literally one single thing about each other?
Speaker 8 (25:45):
Live?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
We're here with special guests Liz Plank. Why don't we
go ahead and get started with question number one?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I feel like you should know your best friend's middle name.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I think, yes, we're already losing.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, I'm thinking of.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I'm sweating basic. So why don't we start in the
in the order of how we say the name show? Yeah,
So I'll go first. You guys gotta have to guess
my middle name, okay, or do you know my middle name?
Speaker 3 (26:17):
I thought I did, but now I don't.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Well, this one's already hard because my family is from Eritrea,
and the naming convention there is so much different than
it is in the Western world. Basically, you don't have
a family name necessarily, you do like your lineage.
Speaker 5 (26:32):
You get your name.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Your middle name is your dad's name, and your last
name is your grandfather's name. And so my dad's name
is blank blank Fidel, and growing up, we were hanging
out at his auto repair shop, Fidel Auto Repair, and
I've been using that as kind of my professional stage name,
(26:54):
even though the way it works in Eritrea is that
my middle name is my dad's name and my last
name is my grandfather's name, which is Oakbosgi. But take
all of that and throw it out the window, because
my dad decided to buck the lineage trend and give
me a middle name. I'm not sure if I've ever
told you guys this. It starts with a B.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Benjamin Yeah, yeah, Well it's.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Pronounced differently exactly ben yam.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
Okay, Well yeah, we had no shot.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
That Yeah all right, No, uh, isn't it something like
Clark or something like that. It's something that's way more.
Speaker 9 (27:32):
Let's just start with I don't want to say it,
but b oh is it also it's.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Not Benjamin, is it? Holy shit? All right, we are
failing terribly.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
I know that's funny.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Damn all right, Devin.
Speaker 5 (27:50):
Devon's already got two first names.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
You guys should kind of notice one. I know.
Speaker 6 (27:54):
I feel like I definitely will have known it once
I hear it.
Speaker 7 (27:57):
There's a I will say there's a celebrity connection, not
actually not why actually yes, but why we've talked about it.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Devin James.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
Yes, yeah, I like Jordan.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Devin James, and just for the listeners, the three of
us are huge fans of Kevin James.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
We've seen him live and.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
So wow, that's hilarious. I don't think I knew that,
all right, So Liz would be pretty disappointed in us
so far.
Speaker 3 (28:25):
Hey, we got it right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
No, no, no, but now I'm actually gonna remember this.
The problem is we just didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
But it's like middle names are tough.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, they don't come up really no, okay.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Number two, they're astrological signs, like I feel like you
need to know which kails it, you know their birthday.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
I don't know the signs either, but vague I think
I can get your guys' birthday. So let's let's start
with mine.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yours is this is kind of She's unfair.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
It did just happen, but the party was not on
the day.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Okay, yeah, the eleventh.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Al right, so we got Manny all right. Noah is
August the first, who almost aid third? And Devin is
September seventh.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Wow, killed it all right? Liz not happy for question
number one. Liz very happy for question number two. Question
number three is kind of spicy.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
You should know who their exes like, who their like
last breakup was with. You should be able to give
a one line at least about why the breakup happened.
That's If you can't, I'm gonna die. Are you serious.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Previous breakup and why?
Speaker 5 (29:47):
And why? So?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And now are we considering literally the last person you
called a partner?
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Or that's what I was going to ask. Is this
a situationship?
Speaker 6 (29:59):
Very based on you know, I would say more serious?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
All right, so we'll start with me.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
It's not a trick question, it's it should be easy.
Speaker 7 (30:13):
Yeah, wow, I thought there had to be someone someone else.
Speaker 6 (30:17):
Yeah, yeah, okay, why I have no idea?
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I mean this one, this one's hard too, because it's
like there's not one reason.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
Yeah, why where do I beg give?
Speaker 1 (30:28):
It's actually one hundred. I mean, I don't think that
it was one person not a good match. Yeah, I
think for a long we were young and stupid.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
What year was that?
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Actually I remember it vividly because it was during the
World Cup, so it's twenty eighteen, broken, I remember, Holy shit,
I remember the eighteen Yeah, whoa.
Speaker 6 (30:50):
I guess that makes sense if then you had a
couple of years of nothing and COVID.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
It wasn't nothing, it was Yeah. I remember of the
World Cup being like kind of saving my ass in
terms of just like, oh, a big breakup happened. But
now I'm yeah, I'm a huge fan of the beautiful game.
All right, all right, Noah, is this the obvious one?
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Probably?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Now I'm blinking on her name.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
And I'm kind of blinking on her name is Yeah.
The why, to the best of my recollection, I don't know.
She just kind of didn't seem about it that life.
Speaker 9 (31:33):
Yeah, yeah, I don't think we saw an eye on
what we wanted at the time.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
So, yeah, it ran its.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Scores as well. Fair fair enough, Devin, We all know
this one because it was big news.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
This is.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Correct, Okay, the reason why though, I mean, I guess
there's a couple of reasons.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
There wasn't like a big fight or anything, so it's
not as fun.
Speaker 5 (32:00):
Yeah, that was a good one, because this is the issue.
Speaker 7 (32:02):
I think the issue with this is we're we gave
ourselves the easy way out. What do you mean because
we said relationships in that situationships?
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Oh yeah, situationships.
Speaker 7 (32:12):
I think if we asked, she would know all her
friends sitationships.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yep, yep, that's true.
Speaker 6 (32:19):
And I'll also say it's interesting because like we're saying
things but like that was never a conversation we had.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, yeah, Like I remember.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
You texted us, Yeah, you told us he broke up.
Speaker 9 (32:29):
Yeah, And I think we were both like, oh, damn,
that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
That's crazy. I think in the text I remember saying
something stupid like damn end of an era or something.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
That was pretty good. Season finale.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Just when you thought this episode was over, Liz had
one more challenge for us.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
When's the last time that like one of you three
shared uh difficulty, like a challenging situation, a relationship issue,
a work issue.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Well, it's Funny you mentioned earlier that men don't give
themselves a chance to go deeper because they're always watching
like a basketball game. Because Noah and I literally made
plans to watch the Lakers at a bar after this.
Speaker 5 (33:19):
Yeah, I won.
Speaker 6 (33:20):
Not be sharing any personal information out there.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Why don't you guys share a personal each share a
personal struggle that's going on for you, and then you
can talk about how it felt.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
All right, well, then I can go first. Mine is
this this medicine I've been taking?
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Oh yeah, so last year.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Hey, I won't bore you guys with the actual conversation,
but I will summarize it. Basically. I talked about the
complications I'm having with some medication taking. Devin shared that
he's trying to find a balance between work that he
loves and work that gets him paid, and Noah shared
(34:10):
that he's been trying to identify what his priorities are
these days. The conversation lasted about thirty minutes, and then
we talked about what it felt like to share these
struggles with each other. How did that feel, guys sharing
(34:33):
your personal struggles with the boys. I guess I can
go first. If obviously it's like good to kind of
get something off your chest or say something very personal.
It feels therapeutic, YadA YadA. What I just said wasn't
necessarily like a secret or something that I should have
told you but hadn't yet. So I kind of feel like, yeah,
(34:55):
if we were bowling and I had a drink or something,
I might be complaining about that, and then yeah, it
would have come up naturally. There can only be good
to gain from like sharing that with someone. But how
did you guys feel?
Speaker 6 (35:07):
Obviously, because of the construction of this, it's a little
different because like, yeah, not that we're forced to do it,
but it's like it's being set up in a different way.
We're on mics, I mean, but you know, and yeah,
I don't think it was like I'm not pouring out
the depths of my soul, you know. But at the
same time, it's like, well, these aren't things that we
really would talk about normally. I don't think I would
(35:30):
want every conversation to be like this. Yeah, it's like
there's a balance, I guess, But I think, you know,
sprinkling in a little bore wouldn't hurt me.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
I guess. It's also the way you talk about something
where like if I had brought up the medicine, if
I was like a couple of beers deep or something,
I'd be talking about in a completely different way than
like sharing that what I'm struggling with, right, Yeah, yeah,
so it does help, I guess to be like, Okay,
here's what what's going on? Yeah, versus you know, just
(36:03):
shouting at someone over loud music.
Speaker 5 (36:05):
Yeah, but it was it's nice to do.
Speaker 6 (36:08):
Yeah, I'll probably be sharing more in MI nend or
trying to keep the door open a little bit, versus
being like, oh that sucks, yeah crazy, well, like my
chicken tenders already, you know, like you know what I mean,
Let's have some fun and try to just be a
little more open or receptive to that in case that
is what someone's looking for.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Yeah, you know, in that moment.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, it certainly it did prove kind of Liz's hypothesis,
but I guess it's not necessarily hers. But she was
talking about how we're just kind of socialized differently than women,
and we're socialized to want different things from conversations. It
never occurred to me to tell you guys that medicine thing,
(36:49):
because I don't know why. Maybe in my head, I'm like,
they don't why would they care about this? Or like
but yeah, just never occurred to me.
Speaker 7 (36:56):
Yeah, I agree with No, this didn't feel like a
groundbreaking like, yeah, I don't know this is their right
circumstances for us to have.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Like, yeah we would, Yeah, and I don't know that
it was of the.
Speaker 7 (37:11):
I do think to Know's point, it will be in
the back of my head now because it seems like
we're all open to talking about stuff.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
Yeah. Yeah, it's just like.
Speaker 7 (37:19):
We don't want to prod so it puts more of
the like the person telling the thing just has to
volunteer more information. Yeah, that's true in our dynamic, like
that's the only way we're gonna Like I think if
one of us volunteered more information, then we would.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Ask more questions.
Speaker 9 (37:35):
But pretty surface level, we're just sort of like, cool,
Yeah that's all you match, mat Yeah exactly. So I
think after this, yeah, I'll maybe be more proactive about
if it's a thing I want to talk about, opening
the door a bit more like.
Speaker 6 (37:51):
Yeah, next time Devin breaks up with a girlfriend of
eight years, I'm gonna ask.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Why thanks for listening to our confessions. This was no
Such Thing by Manny, Noah and Devin. The theme song
was produced by me Manny. Thank you so much to
(38:16):
our guest Liz Plank, whose book For the Love of
Men is out everywhere. If you thought that this conversation
was even a little bit insightful, you're gonna love that book.
If you like the show, we're asking you to give
us a five star rating on wherever you're listening. We're
doing this show by ourselves and could use every little
bit of help from people who enjoy it. And also
(38:38):
be sure to subscribe to our substack at No Such
Thing dot show. We'll see you next week.
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