December 17, 2025 • 58 mins
Kev talks with Emmy-winning journalist and host of the Spolitics podcast, Jemele Hill, for a candid and thought-provoking conversation. Jemele opens up about what really happened during her time at ESPN, the current political climate shaping journalism and the entertainment industry, and the challenges of getting meaningful projects across the finish line.
She reflects on her memoir, Uphill, falling short of the New York Times Bestseller List, why it crushed her in the moment, and how she ultimately turned that disappointment into fuel for her upcoming children’s book. Jemele also shares how her husband, Ian Wallace, has been a constant source of strength, grounding her during moments of self-doubt and reminding her of who she is when the noise gets loud.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The amountain times that people pay you not to work
in Hollywood is really kind of staggering. It is you're like, like,
you already paid me for this, but now you don't
want it, and so but I get to keep the check.
Oh okay, right, which I know to some people listening now,
I said, oh, that sounds great.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
No, it's not because you need.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
It made you need it may because that's where the
real money comes from.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
What up, y'all?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Welcome to Not My Best Moment with me keV on Stage,
where I talk to oh, I can actually say this now.
Two time New York Times bestselling author keV on Stage,
author of Successful Failure, where we talk to winners about
their losses. And that's what Not My Best Moment is about.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Today.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Our illustrious guest is one Jamail Hill. You know her
from ESPN from Sports Center twenty eighteen in a b
J Journalist of the Year Award winner. Currently a contributing
writer to The Atlantic, also hosts This Politics podcast where
she examines the complexities of the world through the lens
(01:10):
of sports. She had her own show, His and Hers.
She's done, Carrie and Jamail won't stick to sports. She's
an actress. She's appeared on at least eleven credits from
PowerBook goes to to Luke Ca to Below Deck, a
Black Lady's skeed show. But we're not here to talk
about any of those successes. No, no, no, not today.
That's not what this show is about. This show is
(01:32):
about failure. Welcome to the show, Jamel. How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I love that you listed my acting credits as if
I played anyone other than myself.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
This all counch.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
You rite them sag checks, keep up. I love how
they come out of nowhere. One day it might be
two dollars and thirteen cents. The next day it might
be one hundred and ten dollars. Like it's such random
amounts that I'm just like, oh, okay, but go.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Say, welcome to the business where you just don't know
if you're buying a piece of gum or paying your mortgage.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
We find them on the next episode of d Policy.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Do you before again, Do you have any acting desires
that are outside of playing a journalist or reporter or
sports journalists?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
No, no, no, I mean I you know. Those roles
were really surprising because I was a huge fan of
the Power Universe and so for them to actually be
thoughtful enough to include me, and it was like really
really a big honor. Uh and then black ladies said,
show I know Robin the d she's great and so uh,
(02:39):
these really are just people who have become you know,
friends looking out and have written.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Stuff for me.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
And I'm just like, I'm happy to play myself or
annoying journalists anytime, you know. But the Power fans still
haven't forgiven me because, uh, they didn't like the way
I grilled Zeke and uh like look, Rick was supposed
to have him ready and he didn't have his boy prepared,
so apparently, you know, I kind of got under their
(03:06):
skin a little bit.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
But yeah, that was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
But no, I don't you know, if something comes along
that is interesting, I'm happy to do it.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
So you know, if you got any leftover role you need,
a reporter.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
In church might hit you up.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Had I don't I want to hit you up. We
had a reporters a situation next, you.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Know, especially the workplace comedy you have going with the hospital.
One of the name is flat in my mind.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
It's like because some of our friends with the comedian.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
CP, who I know, Oh my god, she was brilliant.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yes, he was really really good and so uh yeah.
So if you if you need her a medical reporter
in the fictional hospital, let me know.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I got you so obviously, if it's not painfully obvious
to you all. I've known about Jamail Hill for many years.
Fun fact, when I worked at all Day, I ran
into her. She was having lunch at La Live and
I walked over to her and I was like, Jamel,
I'm a huge fan, love your work, you know, things
like that, and you were like, wow, thank you, I'm
having a one on one with my boss, So this is.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
This is good.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Your timing was impeccable, Like seeing people do like me
out here, look at.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
That what sounds of percent.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I was a huge fan of his and hers and
all the black things you guys did.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
The Different World was my favorite one.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
But you you know, listen, as a follower of you,
you it's like, I don't know if you leaving it,
I want to start at ESPN following you on Twitter specifically,
I don't know if like you leaving ESPN what it
did to people who are frustrated with you. It doesn't
matter how long you've been gone from the four letters
(04:44):
that always comes up in conversation. Is that frustrating? Do
you have any like feelings about leaving there? Because it's
like you always have to answer that no matter what
you're talking about, it always seems to lead back to that.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
No.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I mean, I was there for twelve years, so I
was in, you know, twelve years. In the last four
or five, I spent being on television just about every day,
and more than anything, like you reference his and hers
to me, that is something I will always take a
lot of great pride in is that even years later,
people remember the show. People love the show, love some
(05:18):
of the as you put it, the black things that
we did on the show, the very black things that
we did. And so that it's not something that I
am disappointed or looked like, oh, well, you know since
I left there. Now you know I left there in
twenty eighteen. I don't find it to.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Be any kind of indictment of what I've done since then.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
If people still remember me at ESPN, whether that be
good or bad. The only thing that is a little
hard to hear sometimes is when the younger folks say
I grew up watching you. I'll be like, oh, come over,
I'm not. No, It's like they treat me like I'm
an episode of Different World. I'm like, what grew up
watching Different World? It's like you grew up watching me?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Okay, sir, this is well into the two thousands, Thank
you very much.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
When I hear that, I hear that as well. And
it's just like, you know, people be like, man, I
remember watching when I was in elementary school. Now I
got kids, It's just like, how long was I doing this?
Because it ever feel like that long to be and
that's a that's a huge chasm. Although it might only
be ten years. You could be twelve and then twenty
two would have a kid, or even twelve and twenty, but.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
It just feels like I wasn't doing anything that long.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
That you should have had that much life and been
aware of me at both points in your life.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
This is very true.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
And it's like yeah, because and then I do realize
I haven't done it for a long time. I mean
my first professional year of journalism was nineteen ninety seven. Wow,
and so I've been doing this almost thirty years, and
of course because I started when I was five, But
it just it feels it doesn't feel as if my
(07:00):
career has lasted that long, and then to spend almost
half of it in one place. Yeah, that is It's
very sobering when I think of it that way. But
you know, I'm blessed because this business is volatile. It
is again in another one of those volatile states right now.
And to still be standing after thirty years and still
(07:20):
be able to do the things that I love is
to me the most rewarding part.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
I want you, as the kids say, to take me
through there, walk me through.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
I don't know if it was your dream job, but
I imagine as a journalist, reaching ESPN at the time
you were at ESPN felt like a major accomplishment.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
And it was at the time.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I feel like you were there before Bleach Report or
Barstool had they were nowhere near where they are now ESPN.
I wudn't even say ESPN has lost its luster, but
they didn't really have any competitors that were anywhere near there.
And you were there at the height you have the
six pm Sports Center and then one day you're going
somewhere else.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Was there any fear there where?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Like take us through that moment where you're like, okay,
I'm moving on and here's what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
So I got to ESPN in two thousand and six
and I was hired as what they referred to then
as like an independent contractor. So I wasn't even a
full salary Disney employee. I mean, I got a salary
for sure, but I had to pay my own medical
you know.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yes, yes, I had to.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Pay my own medical and my own four one K
all of that. I paid my own benefits, no way, Yes,
it is true. So that's how they used to do
independent contractors. Now, your salary was a pretty decent salary.
Like I, you know, I left the job. I was
a columnist, a sports columnist at the Orlando Sentinel, and
so it definitely paid me almost double what I was
(08:47):
making at the job in Orlando. But you have to
factor that you're paying for all your benefits, your expenses
change a little bit.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
But I was. I was still coming out of head
so it was fine.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
And so it was very a very different structure pay
wise than I was used to. That every week's is
there or every every every Thursday, you know, deposit or
you roll into the bank. And this we got paid
once a month, which was even even crazier.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I was like, what is this life like?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
And why am I out of money? After fold Ain's like,
I don't understand this life right, and so so it
was a big adjustment. And it was the first time
in my career my salary actually got reported on because
it leaked that the ESPN had hired this columnist out
of Orlando. And the first the story they got leaked
(09:41):
about my salary wasn't true.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Oh no, it was a lot higher.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Like they said, I was making two hundred thousand dollars
a year, and I was not making two hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
So they count your pockets and they count the wrong
number on top of that, right.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
On top of that, I mean, which I guess is
good and bad, but you know it maybe it works
in the sense of people then are like, oh, you're
worth that much or you ain't worth that much.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
It's going in both directions.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And so when I got there, I didn't I wasn't
hired as a television personality. I was hired to be
a columnist for ESPN dot com. I was replacing Skip Baylist,
who was writing for ESPN dot com and he stopped
writing so he could focus full time on television. And
obviously become the personality that he did. And you know
the great thing about being at ESPN is that you
(10:26):
get to do everything. And so I did radio, started
doing TV, was still writing, and then I made.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
The decision, you know, maybe around twenty.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Twelve, twenty thirteen, that I really needed to fully pursue
television full time at ESPN because, to be totally frank,
that's where all the money was. Ye and they're only
going to pay a writer so much, but you had
people at the network making five seven eight million dollars
a year. So it was just like you know, and
it wasn't even their contracts or hearing about him through
(10:57):
the grapevine that was left an imprint. It was actually
Matt Lauder because he had signed a new deal at
NBC and I think he was getting like twenty million
a year. And I was like, that's possible, I mean
what you know, and so I was like, Oh, let
me do this TV thing. I'm out here playing. So
(11:17):
but the hard thing about being at ESPN is that
there's a lot of really talented people that work there.
It's a constant fight for real estate, so you have
to kind of you got to get some breaks and
yeah I did.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
And Jalen Rose he left. The show was called Numbers
Never Lie.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
He left to do just concentrate fully on the NBA
doing an NBA countdown, and that created an opening. Mike
was already a host of the show, and they asked
me to join the show. And you know, the rest
of as they say, is history now. At the time,
ESPN was considered one of those jobs you just did
not leave, especially if you got TV that this was
supposed to be the pinnacle. It was not on my
(11:54):
vision board, by the way, like I didn't want to
do television like that was that was no, that was
not I even cared about doing. Because I was a
print journalist and back then there was a very hard
line between print journalists and broadcast journalists. Like print journalists,
I won't lie. We was God of Sidditydy'll.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Feel a little better than right.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
We were.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
We were sadditi thinking like, oh, they ain't the real journalist.
We the real journalist. You know what I'm saying, Like
these little pretty people on TV, but they little suits
and they little perfect jailed hair, and like they ain't
in the trenches like we are. You know what I'm saying,
that was sort of the prevailing attitude, and because of
the rise of shows like Around the Horn and pt I.
(12:41):
Of course, sports reporters was always a staple, but you
started to see more journalists and columnists wind up making
the transition to TV because frankly, the money was too
good and so you know, once I made that transition,
it started doing his and hers, and then of course
we got the Sick of o'clock Sports Center. It was
the power of TV was pretty evident. So ESPN was
(13:03):
considered a destination job, maybe one of the best jobs
in the industry. And to your point, no, they didn't
have a ton of ton of competition and the idea
of leaving there most people were like, that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
But there were a.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Couple examples of people who left and were able to
be successful, Dan Patrick being one. Keith Oberman, he left
and he was able to do some successful things. But
it wasn't It was considered a big risk because this
was ESPN, and frankly, from a market standpoint, it's not
a ton of places that can pay you the kind
of money that they're paying you.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
So if you decide to leave, is.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
That you have to be comfortable with the fact that
what you left you may never get back to financially,
you may not get back there. Now you will be
happier in some other ways in the sense you have
freedom of movement, you get to say a little bit more,
you get to be more involved. Because the other thing too,
that ESPN wasn't doing there, Like you see how Stephen A.
(13:58):
Smith has his own YouTube showed able to do other things.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
They didn't play that.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
No, I thought that is at least even in the
scheme of like the media landscape that is still relatively
new for them. Yes, like the last two three years, baby, I.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Would say so.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
I mean, but they I think they realize now that
if you want to have these high value, big name
journalists and commentators like him, like Pat McAfee, is that
you're going to have to let them do other things
because that's the price of doing business. And so it's
much more accepted now that you would be able to
do these things.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
And so.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
When twenty eighteen came and I decided to leave, and
I do always have to reiterate that to people. I
decided to leave, I.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Still had three years left on my contract. I did
not have to leave then.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
And I always Jamil got fired from me yestory here.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
I was like, I don't remember it that way.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
I never I never got fired.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I told them that I wanted to leave and I
thought our time had kind of to an end. And
they usually they don't want to let you out of
that kind of contract when you have three.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Years left, but they they did because.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
You know, I think they were facing so much heat
frankly for having me there that it became advantageous for
them as well, and me asking them to leave frankly
relieve them of being put in a bad life.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Wait reminded people who don't know why were they facing
heat for having you?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
They were facing heat because of some comments that I
said about Donald Trump the first presidency.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
And so Donald Trump one.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Point, zh I had a lot to say about him,
and so yeah, I said it on social media. As
I have to correct people, I didn't say it on Twitter, okay,
I mean I didn't say it. Rather on sports. To them,
you know, it was like you tuned in and I
started the show where guess what, Donald Trump's a racist? Like, no,
it's not what happened. And because of my comments, you know,
it really put ESPN in a in a weird that
(16:00):
they weren't used to being there, and this was you know,
they were already kind of you know, the people on
on the right, conservatives were coming after them because they
were sort of fresh off giving Kaitlyn Jenner the Arthur
ash Awards, which the conservatives lost their mind about, which
is really hilarious when you think about it today, because
Kaitlyn Jenner is a big conservative.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
It's like, you would have thought gotta been cool, but
it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
So they gave Kaitlin Clinton the Arthur Ashe Award, and
then people started saying ESPN and went woke and all
this and yeah, you know, their favorite word. And in fact,
they used to call me and and my friend Michael
Smith our sports center woke center.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
It was just like we wasn't doing nothing but showing
up black like that was that was I guess. I
was like, wow, we just really literally came to work and.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
All of a sudden, we are you know, they acted
like we when they turned the Sports Center, Mike and
I was on there and Dashkin's with our fists. Race
is in the air opening every sports right exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Like the hell with the giants? What's going on in borgon?
State like, no, we were still covering sports.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
And so ESPN was in a very challenging moment for
them because they'd always been a political they'd always been
the cool kids, well liked by pretty much everybody, and
they found themselves just by virtue of having me and
Mike and Bomani and they Dan lebratard that people were
starting to change how they perceived the company. And I
(17:37):
don't think it's because anything different was being said. I
think it's just literally they saw negroes and it got
a little frightening for some of them, and you got
a Cuban guy, you got women.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
They're like, what kind of anarchy is happening in that ESPN?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Where are these old white dudes We've been used to
growing up with us giving us the highlights.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
We don't like this.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
So next thing, you know, they had, you know, pretty
much been brand at ESPN a liberal institution. But all
that being said, it was and listen, I say this
all the time. It's the longest job I ever had,
it's the best job I ever had. And while the
end was a little awkward, it doesn't take away from
all the things that I did there. And so once
(18:19):
I made the decision to leave. It was a little frightening.
I mean I had some stuff lined up, but you know, again,
it goes from that direct deposit every Thursday to like
every day.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I'm hustling.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
You know, I'm out here slanging these opinions, like what
are we doing? You know, so I'm stacking you. You know,
I'm selling opinions off the truck. All of a sudden,
I masterpe I'm an ice cream woman.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Like what.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I had to, for the first time in my career
become an entrepreneur.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
And that was a really scary.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Thing because journalists don't do math. That's we're very bad
at it, like for the most part. And I think
we're you know, because we're more creatively inclined. We're accustomed
to thinking along the lines of creativity and not actually
as business people. So for the first time in twenty eighteen,
I actually had to become a business woman.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
That makes so much sense. If you're lucky enough to
live a long life, often that comes with a lot
of transitions. You know, you didn't think that job, whatever happened,
now it's the greatest job ever. Now you want to
move on. But you've been used to a certain type
of job, and now you got to learn a brand
new whole skill set. And speaking about that entrepreneur thing,
you you in a similar vote as I am now
(19:36):
where you got to like sell these ideas. But your
career is not as much in your control as it
used to be. Now you're pitching the networks and things
like that. So catch us up on the last few
years where it's been you know, what has it been
like for the last few years where it's not being
you know, steady paycheck, even back to when you were
first a journalist, and everything you pitch or that gets
(19:58):
developed doesn't always get made.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
So right now, I would say, is a really frightening
time in entertainment and in journalism. You know a lot
of people, I mean, keV, you and I are here
in LA and this place is not recovered since the
strike at all, right, And the strike was when I
really it was really very eye opening because then you saw,
(20:24):
or at least I saw, with how connected the entertainment
industry is to the media industry. I mean I knew
they were sort of loosely connected, but then that connection
was like real vibrant, like all of a sudden, you know,
this media company is deciding not to hire people because
they're like, well, it's a strike, and then we got
to conserve money. And because you have so many companies
now that have multiple divisions, they do film, TV and media, right,
(20:46):
so everything's all tumbled up together, and journalism is essentially
under monopoly rule where you have like six.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
People who own all the media.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
And that makes it even more challenging whenever there's any
kind of economic subtraction. And so you know, the last
I would say three years have been tough. It have
been really tough because the podcast industry changed a lot.
When I first started podcasting in twenty nineteen, that was
like that was like when.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
The gold rush happened.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
You know, not that I was alive then, but I imagine
where people hit, you know, the gold rush. It was
probably like the oil rush where you just like everybody
get in the check.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I try to tell people that it was like people
rented studios and I mean, even me, I'm so grateful
I signed a long term lease because that money. And
I thought when the pandemic happened, I was like, oh,
the bottom's going to fall out, and the opposite happened.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
It like jumped up.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
But then it and it fell out worse than I
could have ever and.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Has it recovered for no, it is not a lot
of people including.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Me, No it hasn't, you know, like you, I was
living in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, like that was the time,
and I think because we were inside that the industry,
the number of people listening to podcasts like really exploded
and so it felt like a good time. A lot
of media companies, they were you know, handing out big
contracts because they wanted names, and they were like, okay,
(22:15):
we wanted people who have the potential to attract audiences.
And then I think there were some you know examples
where that's not always the best way to grow a podcast,
and there was some setbacks for some people, and then
that started a general industry contraction, which you know, I
wound up leaving Spotify, and like you, during that time
(22:37):
thinking like oh, as you said, during the pandemic, like
I was able, I was. I was very financially healthy
during the pandemic because we was.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
In sad and so.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
And when that kind of you know, wore off and
during the pandemic is when I decided to scale. And
one thing I definitely learned is especially if you are
a black entrepreneur. Scaling is so difficult and you know,
like you are rented a I'm leasing. I'm currently in
(23:09):
of this in my office here, I have a podcast
space upstairs that was built for me by Spotify.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
You know, shout out to them. So uh they did that.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
That was part of the scaling and us doing more
business together beyond just my podcast. And so because I
created a podcast network with them, and so the goal
was to do a bunch of podcasts out of this studio,
you know, let and really build something, you know, build
a network, and Spotify we had some differences and opinion
(23:44):
about what that looked like and how that was going,
and so ultimately it was best that we separate, all right,
so I'll go through another separation with a major company.
And because you know, I mean, I think at that
point we had two podcasts on the roster and it
was a third one that was coming, but that never
(24:05):
happened because of our separation. And so bottom line is
that the scaling up didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
And meanwhile, I've.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Signed this lease in this building for you know, I
signed the least for like five years, and so it
is let me tell you about not my best moment.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
If I can turn back the hands of times, trust.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Me, I would not be we are. We made the
exact same mistake the exact same time.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
I'm still at the sound stage, which.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Everybody thinks, oh man, you got the big studio brother.
If they would have let me out of that least
two years ago, I would have been gone, keV.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
If they came to me right now, I pack up
all my stuff and I'd be like bye, like I
would leave here, like I got warrants, like straight up,
like it would be I go because you know, people
should know, like as one of the results of the pandemic,
it's like commercial leasing space has like cratereah, you know,
(25:12):
and it's like, you know a lot of people are
working remotely, working out home, and even in the podcast,
you know, industry, it's like there are you know, I
like to think I have reasonable rates, but people are
you know, deciding to do this out of home or
doing it much cheaper cheaper, And so it's not a
(25:32):
great time to be in that business either.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
And so yeah, this is this is my albatross right now,
is this damn building that I'm in. So you got
some friends, Cam.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Hollow I thought in my studio, I was like, oh man,
we're gonna be renting it out, and it's just like, no,
you're not.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
You're not.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
People are doing Zoom and stream Yard and Riverside, and
I think even audiences have accepted less production value. So
you don't have to be on a set. I think,
I tell people all the time, we can consume a
lot of media like this, so there's a limit to
how how much or how good it has to be
for you to even care more. With Jamil Hill right
(26:16):
after this, Okay, so you're you're you're stuck in a
(26:37):
in a least like I am thanking the Lord January
twenty twenty sixth. I'm released from the shackles of that
that building.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
You ain't got that far Togo. Oh my god, you
see the promise.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Land Man, I'm right there. I'm right there.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
But also you have like projects, you know, like the
podcast that that didn't come to fruition. You had TV
show and documentary documentaries like tell Us about some of
the things that were in development that you were excited
about banking on, but you know, didn't end up happening
or happening the way you thought they were going to.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I mean, this town is so much it's hurry up
and wait right, and so you know again, so this
in this entertainment industry wide contraction is happening where you
would think that they'd be buying more content because the
people's appetite seems to be endless when it comes to
content that is actually not what's happening at all. And
(27:37):
the one thing that can get very frustrating for creators
and then I think especially black creators in particular, is
that you're constantly at the mercy of somebody else.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
You know, we've had projects my production company, Loge Freeway Media,
which I do, which I'm partnered with my best friend
from college, Kelly Carter, who's an entertainment journalist, and I mean,
we've had like, there was a comedy that we really
felt really good about that we are uh, well technically
we are still developing it with Gabrielle Union. And it
(28:12):
was the one that we thought felt like was in
the raws form in the sense of like, oh, we
kind of had the idea, we had the concept, and
you know, we threw it out there, but we we
honestly didn't expect to sell it.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
That quickly.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
We had some other things that are much further on,
much more concrete, but they love the idea, and so
we initially looked like we had something worked out with Showtime.
They bought the pilot, so we're feeling really good about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Like, yes, we sold something.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
And as what happens sometimes in this business is like
the amount of times that people pay you not to
work in Hollywood is really kind of staggering. It is
you're like, but you already paid me for this, but
now you don't want it, and so but I get
to keep the check okay, right, which I know to
some people listening that might say, oh that sounds great.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
No, it's not because you need it made.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
You need it.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
May because that's where the real money comes from.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
It's like, Hey, we're talking about one time check versus
you getting mini checks.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
You want mini check.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
It's not just one right, And it's not like the
what they pay you to not do, it's not you know,
it's not life changing money ever. But so we we
had to deal with them, and then they decided that
they want to switch up and not focus because this
was a thirty minute comedy and they want to focus
then because of some successes they had on their network
(29:30):
on like our long drama and all drama d's and
dramas and whatever, and so they said, hey, we're kind
of not doing this comedy thing right now.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I'm like, okay.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
So then we take the script that we had and
we reworked, and you know, it's great because like Gabrielle Union,
she was just epeeing it, but she loved the script
so much that she's like, I think I might want
to do this, Like let's see where this goes. And
it's like, hey, your name in a room. We feel
good about those champs, but even that, like you, you
(30:03):
can have many stars attached to something and they still
like no, right, And so we're still developing that. But that,
I mean, can we started developing that project in twenty nineteen, okay,
and you know it's enough to drive you crazy. But
(30:25):
that's why I think it's important that, especially in LA,
that when there are at events and things that where
we're all in the same space and can commiserate and
share these stories. And that's this way everybody isn't thinking okay,
so it's not just me and I heard the guy
who created Squeak games talk about his road into getting
(30:46):
that made ten years. Ten years everybody said no, that
is man, everybody, and all it took is one yes
and he got it the And I think hearing those
stories gives me a little more fuel when the low
moments come to where you're like, I can't sell I
(31:07):
can't sell nothing out here. I can't sell ice to
a penguin, Like what is going on? And so yeah,
we had to set back of that. And then there's
this documentary that I've been trying to do for the
last three years that is at various stops and starts,
and you know those Hearing those nose constantly makes me
(31:28):
really respect the people who are in this business. And
I don't care what type of movie it is it
could be, so playing part sixty two, I don't care.
You get it made.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
I got so much respect for you because you got
it made. You know.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
I've certainly had some wins, and I was just up
for an Emmy for producing and writing for the Simone
Biles docuseries Small Rising that's on Netflix, you know, And
I've had other little successes, but it's of course it's
the nose that really with you, because you feel like
(32:03):
you go through these periods in this business where you
feel like you're just not making any progress and that
you are just kind of flying in a in a
in a you know, just a certain flying pattern that
you just like, I'm not you just right, You're just circling.
And and so, you know, with these last couple of
years being you know, really slow.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
In this business, and not just it with entertainment, but.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Also you know, another another great way that I certainly
was able to supply my income was with speaking engagements
and me and some of my friends who are kind
of in the business of you know, talking about race
or politics or my case sports, race and politics altogether.
Because of this national attack on DEI, on anything black.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
It's like universities that basically.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Stopped calling oh wow.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah, they are basically I mean they you know, universities
organizations because they don't want to come up under fire
because all it takes is you know, one person to say, well,
look who they bring in the campus and look what
they're talking about, and that's DEI. Because so many states
just outlawed they just put every everything that's not white,
they just make a d.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
They don't listen.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
And it's like that you know, but that's the political
reality that we're living in.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And so a lot of you know, my friends who.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Go and talk to young people, young universities, or even
just talking about what it means to be a black
journalist in this moment that's considered now controversial to be
saying on college campuses.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
So how did you, man? You got like a you
getting hit from every possible angle career.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Wise, Yeah, I'm catching you.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
Catch you got Hollywood alone?
Speaker 3 (33:51):
If it was just that that's a lot you've got
podcasting along with you. It was just that that's a
lot you got speaking engaged with, which, you know, after
the pandemic you think, okay, we can go outside again.
Now outside's open, but your specific areas of expertise which
were once a commodity, and maybe even you know, right
(34:13):
around George Floyd, I always say it like this, I
don't know a better way to say it. But it
was the I'm sorry black people money was flowing.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Every company guilt money.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Oh, it was so.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
Good brand deals.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
We was having a time and it was like.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
We from black squares and the combination of black squares
of the pandemic, it was like, you know what we
really haven't, I think, because it was like, for whatever reason,
during that time in America, it was very highlighted the
discrepancy in pay. It wasn't like, really didn't have anything
to do with George Floyd's passing, except that people were
(34:50):
like kind of calling brands to task, like y'all say this,
but look at your c suite, look at your boardroom,
Look at what you pay even you know, a white
influencer versus a black influencers. Look how much you invest
in these shows. It was like, we see you, we
hear you, we apologize, here's our checkbook, here's us saying
are sorry.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
And that was really just to bring things more equal, right.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
That wasn't even us getting a hit.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
No, it was like, oh, we didn't realize we were
having you at the bottom. Now let's at least bring
you up to something that's remotely you know, reasonable.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
I don't think we ever even reached what white no
counterparts were making. It was just like, well, the discrepancy
can't be as large as it was. And then you know,
as time went on, and really the combination of time
and Trump really was like we ain't doing this and
(35:47):
nobody's really calling us a task for it.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
So now it feels like even worse for black creator.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
It is because now you know, we've seen these organizations
which wind up getting docs like you look at what
happened with.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
The Fearless Fund.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
You know, you have two, uh you know, black women
who to start decide to start a venture capital fund
for other black businesses, black women who are entrepreneurs, which
you know should be to me very non controversial because
black people have such a little access to capital and
I think that's something like somewhere between one and three
(36:22):
percent we're represented in these venture capital endeavors. And so
they were trying to start a fund that acknowledged just
how difficult it is for black businesses to be able
to to scale and to grow and to be supported.
And they got sued. They got sued, and I'm not sure,
(36:47):
so you know, it's I don't remember every single detail.
I know they got sou and they they I think,
had to do things kind of another way. And but
that was that was partly what was happening is that
you would get these sort of white conservatives that would say, like, oh,
fearless fun, that's discriminatory against white and then they wind
(37:11):
up in a court battle, and it's just like.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Basically the opposite of what happened in the pandemic.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
It is. I mean, you know, I was trying to
follow the logic up so like on one end, y'all
keep telling us to pull ourselves up.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
By the bootstraps. We do it, and then you sue
us about it because you're not included. Total helped me
say like help me, help me, help me, help you.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I want to get this.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
That is so black perfect, But you know it's true.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
It's just so like all of those kinds of initiatives
like of course, obviously you know, a more recent example
is Target, Like.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
So they started to say that, yeah, target all.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Of these different companies that in twenty twenty. It was
like black folks, we saw, we should listen now it's
like shut up, sit down, we don't want to see
y'all nowhere. And because they have the force of the
government behind it, that's what makes it different. And you know,
we have some dishonest characters that are going around and
(38:16):
really attacking these businesses and these universities. And as a result,
if you are these universities that are bringing in you know,
a variety of speakers, suddenly you get a little afraid
about bringing in the speakers that you used to. And
so it's really been a wide scale attack and it's
not just limited to the speaking things, because even with
(38:37):
the media and how that much that has changed is
it's like a lot of things that have been normalized
that shouldn't. And so right now, I think, look, if
I wish I had less dignity every day, I'd be like, God,
why did you bless me with respect for myself and
dignity and actually caring about the type of person I am,
(38:58):
Because I'm you right now, if I wanted to do
a right wing switch up, it's to be the perfect time.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Oh my god, win over there.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
You might make a billion dollars for real.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
I'm serious, And I'm just like, oh, why do I
have to have respect for my people and love them?
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Jesus?
Speaker 4 (39:16):
You know, it's so funny sometimes it's a black person
to be like you. You know, in the long run,
you're better off this way.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
But the way it be looking, it'd be like you
can see people taking the play right.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I was like, it's despicable, but I kind of give.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
You, yeah, you like, man, you see them people being
like bro, I got to take the check. You. I
remember when you went in talk like this. You I remember,
and I remember that's not even black people only. I
remember white journalists like you didn't used to talk this way.
But you see the money you like, man, Now you
start saying some stuff and all of a sudden, you
got your own show.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
You're on network, You're on this and that.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Yeah, I mean, I see. I understand how how it happens.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
And because when times get hard, the bills start coming,
So like, what do I have to say? Okay, that's it,
all right, I guess I can. I can start there,
so you know. I mean, but that is the part.
I think when you're facing adversity or when you are
running into some challenges, it really does show who you
(40:22):
really are. Because there's plenty of ways in the last
couple of years I could have made my life a
lot easier if I would have again had far less
respect for myself.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
But I ain't ruled out. Only fans will kill if
I routed out.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Listen, that's the old girl what she said she made
forty two million.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
I was like, yeah, what what part of what do
I have to show?
Speaker 1 (40:45):
I just I just need to know just in case
these times get too hard. I'm like, if I start
showing feet over there, I don't want to hear nothing
from you because I might be showing people.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Then we'll we'll work our way. I got an a
and then next thing you know, you nap.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Here we go after this quick break, will be right
back with more from Jamel Hill from the outside. Look again,
(41:34):
you wouldn't think you have had any negativity right, or
or losses in your career, but it's obvious. I mean
I know because I just know how the industry is.
We just don't really talk about our losses, which is
one of the main reasons we do this podcast. But
how do you keep the faith? How do you keep
your like mental health well during because I would say
(41:56):
working in entertainment and specifically in LA, you deal with
an unhealthy amount of rejection that most industries don't.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
You don't have UH in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
And then you also you specifically have the negativity on
like socials. Right, it's at least on Twitter. Your Instagram
doesn't seem to be as bad. But on Twitter you
John Snow pulling the sword out like every day. It's like, bro,
where is the cavalry? Where's the people from the riverland
to come to your help?
Speaker 4 (42:26):
But like how.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Every time, every day your words get twisted, probably more
than anybody else I follow you be you are.
Speaker 4 (42:36):
Very clear with your words, and they make a whole.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
That whole.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
If you say I like pancakes, I mean you hate waffles.
That happens to you every day on Twitter. So how
do you maintain because you know, you and your husband
seem to be very happy, you know outside look again,
you seem to be, you know, doing okay. But is
that true? And if so, how do you keep that
positive outlet?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
He And I'm so glad that these periods of you know,
career uncertainty that I'm going through.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Right now, that he has really been a rock for me.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
And and of course I don't expect him to, you know,
like of course your partners are to support you, listen
to you, all those things, But I also am very
cognizant of the fact that I don't want him to
think he's got to fix me, right, and so like
you don't have to fix me, like you listening, supporting,
(43:33):
like that's enough, you know, I mean, I'll do of course,
we'll talk about it, but I'll do my internal work
so that like I'm not putting all of that necessarily
on you. And he I'll say the clean version of
what he said. But the last time we kind of
had a talk about like I was telling him about
some things career wise that I was just feeling really
uncertain about, Like technically right now, keV, I don't really
(43:55):
have a job. Okay, I don't know, but uh, you.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Know, uh you're still doing this for you ain't sending
me no invoice or nothing.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
No, no invoice.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
I was like, I'm a little unemployed right now, so
to speak. I mean, I'm still doing my writing for
The Atlantic obviously, and uh but we rapped season one
of Politics already and figured out what you know, then
the next move will look like. And so at any rate,
you know, as I'm facing this sort of level of uncertainty,
I talked to him about it and he he said, well,
(44:31):
I think you need to you need to remind yourself
who you are. And he was like, remind yourself you
are Jamail Hill and.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
That carries way, that's Marlow Stanfield. My name is my name.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
Correct, Like seriously, like I don't know if you know
all the time, like I be cool with you, but
I'm I'm never unaware of Jamail Hill.
Speaker 4 (44:53):
You are Jamail Hill.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Well it can you know, as you said, we we
live in a city and we're in this industry, you
face a complete unhealthy amount of rejection.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
And so it does, you know, for the first time, and.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
You know, really maybe since I first started in this business,
like I'm going through a little self doubt and that
is a foreign feeling for me and wondering like, Okay.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Where do I need to pivot, how do I need
to do this.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
I've been talking to a lot of people just to
kind of figure out like, oh, okay, I see what
they did there, and just picking their brain and just
being able to share.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
But it can, yeah, it could get It could.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Get tough because people do see the outside picture and
they think that everything's just perfect and rosy.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
But it it takes a lot to.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Do this, and you know, and especially like that's why
I love the fact I haven't started trip but yet
it's at home.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
It's right on my nightd I got two books ahead
of it.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
It's all right, and then I then I got then
I'll get to yours.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
But just seeing some of the things that you.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Put out on social media about it was really it
really resonated with me because when I wrote my memoir,
you know, I didn't make the big New York Times
bestseller list, and I was crushed about it.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
I was really crushed about it.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
I wanted to I wanted to ask you how that,
because I assume, just from knowing what I know about you,
that that had to be a goal.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
It was, it was, And then I did, you know,
I did in talking to some other authors, and they
made me feel so much better. They were like, do
you know how hard it is to sell books? And
you know this because you've been through it a couple
of times. It is hard to sell books. Now my sales,
my sales were good, they were healthy. And I get
no better delight than when somebody rolls up on me
(46:40):
and says like, I read your book and it did
this for me. And because you're choosing to spend a
lot of time with somebody, when you read their book,
you know that's yeah, like that's two hundred three hundred
pages you and them, and so that's an honor that
people would do that and finish the book. But I
was crushed by that because as a writer and my
first book. It's like, of course, you know, you want
(47:03):
you want to be able to say that because it
helps you sell the second book. That's the most important part.
It's like it helps you get that other book. And
so it's just like okay. And I remember sharing that
with my husband and he was like really surprised to
hear that, like, oh you I was like, yeah, I
just the reviews were great and everything, and it was
(47:24):
trending in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
And I was like, and I didn't make it. And
I was just like, oh, and I try. You know.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
I had to kind of correct my framing with that.
It's like making a list of not making a list
does not does not is not indicative of.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
The book, right, And but it was.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
It was nevertheless good motivation and good perspective for me
to have. I have another book that's coming out next year.
It's the children's book though, and so, uh, you know,
which was a different kind of writing because my memoir,
you know, I mean it certainly has some adult stuff
in it, for sure, and writing for kids is very
different because you have to pretend like the world is
(48:04):
not on fire, right, and you have to give them
some hope, which was that wasn't the easiest, all right,
because I was like, oh, how do I pretend that
we are not all doomed?
Speaker 2 (48:18):
I don't know how to do that?
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Do that every day to make a funny video every day,
I've got to avoid fire and brimstone, it feels like,
and be like, man, what do y'all think about the
best breads y'all?
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Because we all.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
See what's happening, and it's just like, I can't talk
about that every day.
Speaker 4 (48:34):
I'm gonna lose my mind exactly.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
So this it was, I think, cleansing to write a
different type of thing, yea, and one that forced me
into a different mental space so that I wasn't writing
and thinking about like, oh, the first book didn't make
the New York Times bestseller list, and this was you know,
I didn't put a lot of pressure and expectations on myself.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
So I'm really happy with how it turned out.
Speaker 4 (48:57):
Yeah, and I listen, I totally get it.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
I I was pre grieving not making the list because
till this day still I didn't say this publicly, but
my book did not ever catch up to marriage be hard.
I don't know how I made the list. Excuse me,
I don't know how I made the list, do not
know how. I went as hard as I could, but
numbers wise, we barely made it the first time with
(49:22):
marriage v hard and I was in the same category
as common. I think I was blessed that the category
I was in the second time had fifteen spots and
I was thirteen, whereas marriage be hard had ten spots
and I was eight. If I was in the same category,
I wouldn't have made it. But people were like, you know,
trying to be well, kem, you know, blah blah blah.
You shouldn't feel this way, because when I had already
(49:44):
accepted that I wasn't going to get it, my friends
were like, it still matters, and it was like, it
doesn't matter what y'all say. I have set this goal.
If I don't reach the goal that I've set for myself,
it doesn't matter. If it's a logical goal, it doesn't
matter that the money is guaranteed. None of that matters.
My goal was to make the list, So if I
don't reach that goal. First of all, if you don't
make it the first week, your chances of ever making it.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Yeah, And I don't people realize that you brought up
something important.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
What I didn't realize how much it mattered what other
books were being released. Yes, so I think the week
that my book came out, I feel like it was
Matthew Perry's memoir which was huge and uh, and it
was somebody else's memoir another big one that was like enormous,
and and your publisher they tried to you know, they
(50:33):
know when certain books are coming out, so they're like, okay,
we'll make sure you ain't coming out's book is. But
but all that stuff matter and it's inexact formula.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
That's another part about it.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
Yeah, Amazon or audible audible sales don't count.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
It's needed to do which I didn't know certain bulk sales. So,
like I said, I did a lot of speaking engagements
at universities and things, and they all bought my book
for sure. But the is that doesn't always come toward
the New York's as bestseller because it's considered a bulk thoughts,
and they.
Speaker 3 (51:05):
Want you to do independent book sales. But like for me,
same issue. I you know, we did a book tour
both times. And you think it helps you if you're
talking sheer numbers, but sometimes it hurts you or they
think you fudge the numbers, and it's just like, broh and.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
You don't know you.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
When I saw Kamala and Matthew, I think Kamalave, Matthew McConaughey,
Priscilla Presley, Bill O'Reilly all released or in the thing
my week, and I'm just like, bro, I'm not I'm
not that person. And the black people couldn't go to Target.
I was just like, bro, forget it. You're right, you know,
just like this ain't for me. But also, I'm not
(51:42):
an author. I'm not a writer, so I would feel
very different if you, like, you are a writer. So
it's like this is your thing, So I imagine it's
like it's also happening during this all this other stuff too.
And I think that's just so I appreciate you for
being honest, because I've talked to other people and everybody
who I've talked to who didn't make list is always
like broken up.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
They just don't post about it.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
But right, we're mostly people want to do well in
the things that they do. They want to do well
in everything they attempt. And it's not always money, you know,
oriented it's not always.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
This is the most extensive I've talked about it, like
I've never said like, I've never expressed my public disappointment
because maybe a part of me, I guess, because I
am a writer by trade, you just kind of hit
on it.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Like I think there's a part of me that felt
a little bit of shame about it.
Speaker 4 (52:31):
Yeah, like I should have made the.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
List because I write for a living.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
So of course I should have made the list, you know,
And that was really hard hard to get over.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
But I think it.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Was Lovey who said this. Lovely John's who said that.
I do love her, and she was great when I
was writing the book. She was somebody who was a
good sounding board for me. But it is true she
was like, girl, I don't care how much time passed,
don't ever stop selling that book, no matter what, Like,
don't start, you know, because that look, Barack Obama's first
(53:03):
book flopped really mean quote unquote unquote at first, and
then he got hot enough streets and well this all
goes back to why I might wind up on only
fans so I can sell that book.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Cap That's why I'm going with this.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
Well, listen, Jamel, I truly appreciate it. I do want
to say this about your book. It reminds me of
like great films and great performances. Eddie Murphy to me,
should have an oscar for Jimmy Early his role in
Jimmy Early. It doesn't matter that he didn't win Alan
Arkin much respect to you. That's Eddie Murphy's oscar. But
(53:48):
many great films, great acting performances, great sports performances, they
don't win. But that doesn't It never changes how people
feel about the thing.
Speaker 4 (53:58):
That they read.
Speaker 3 (53:59):
And now I'm glad that people have told you, because
at the end of the day, the awards and accolades
and the money is great, but the true test of
time is how your work made people feel, you know.
Speaker 4 (54:10):
What I mean.
Speaker 3 (54:11):
If it was you were on the list and it
didn't mean anything to anybody, you know, obviously probably you
would rather have it mean something to somebody than than
to be awarded and people be like, I didn't read it,
I didn't like it, I hated it, you know. So
I hope that you take some solace in the fact
that the book is a good piece of work. It's
not reflective of your writing skill or ability or anything
(54:33):
like that. And nobody even knows how this works except
New York and Times themselves. I think it's purposely mysterious,
like it's not an example.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
It's like they don't want people to know the formula
because then they'll feel like people will try to sell
to that, and so like they do keep it purposely
under a bit of a shroud of mystery. So but listen,
that won't be our last book. And even this children's
book was a detour into what I never expected to
be writing that. But I still have more books than
(55:06):
me because ultimately I want to write fiction.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
And so.
Speaker 1 (55:10):
You know, I do believe that one day I will
I will make the Listen.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
I believe it. I believe you're far too talented to
not make it. And I think you know, like sports,
sometimes your down seasons is where you really learn how
to be great. You know, it's them championships that you
don't win. And like as we record this, I don't
know when it'll air, But like the Aces, for example,
(55:36):
this season, you you would never think they'd be playing
the way they're playing right now based on how they
were playing at the beginning of thirteen man, I said,
and now they as we record this, there are two
games away from winning final. I don't know they're gonna
win or lose, but I know I didn't think they
would even be here at the beginning of the season.
Speaker 4 (55:55):
But anyway, thank you, Jamel, He'll be.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
I appreciate the peptis.
Speaker 3 (55:59):
Of course, before we let you go, let people know
where they can follow you, what they should look forward to,
all the.
Speaker 4 (56:04):
Things you say at the end of a podcast.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
Okay, first of all, buy my damn books, number one
by the book.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
All right, It's available wherever books are, so you could
find it. Okay, it's not a big deal, but no,
people can catch me across all the socials. I really
you know, one of the pivots I'm making is really.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
Going hard on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (56:31):
So I have like a ton of YouTube content, so
you know, make sure that people like and subscribe and
and check that out. And you know, they can definitely
catch my writing in the Atlantic, of course, and hopefully
they'll go back and listen to politics. We had a
great first season, a lot of really strong voices, and
it's speaking to the moment that we're in right now.
Speaker 3 (56:53):
Perfect ladies and gentlemen, this is not my best moment.
Kevin on stage and Jamail Hill, thank you so much
for listening. Watching, reviewing and we'll see you next week.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
Oh by coming by.
Speaker 3 (57:21):
Sound Shines Comming.
Speaker 4 (57:27):
This has been a Unanimous Media original.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
Not My Best Moment was produced by iHeart Podcasts and
Unanimous Media. It was supposed by Me Kevin Frederick, Executive
produced by Stephen Curry, Eric Payton and Charlotte Sumter je
co executive producer Kelenna Maria Cutney. The executive producers of
the iHeart Podcast are Sean Titone and Jason English.
Speaker 4 (57:47):
This series was.
Speaker 3 (57:48):
Produced by Peter Calter and Jabari Davis. Co producer Kurt Redmond.
Special thanks to Stephen Curry and Will Pearson. Not My
Best Moment as a production of Unanimous Media and iHeart Podcast.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visits the iHeart
Radio app, ap a podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The amountain times that people pay you not to work
in Hollywood is really kind of staggering. It is you're like, like,
you already paid me for this, but now you don't
want it, and so but I get to keep the check.
Oh okay, right, which I know to some people listening now,
I said, oh, that sounds great.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
No, it's not because you need.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
It made you need it may because that's where the
real money comes from.
Speaker 4 (00:28):
What up, y'all?
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Welcome to Not My Best Moment with me keV on Stage,
where I talk to oh, I can actually say this now.
Two time New York Times bestselling author keV on Stage,
author of Successful Failure, where we talk to winners about
their losses. And that's what Not My Best Moment is about.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Today.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Our illustrious guest is one Jamail Hill. You know her
from ESPN from Sports Center twenty eighteen in a b
J Journalist of the Year Award winner. Currently a contributing
writer to The Atlantic, also hosts This Politics podcast where
she examines the complexities of the world through the lens
(01:10):
of sports. She had her own show, His and Hers.
She's done, Carrie and Jamail won't stick to sports. She's
an actress. She's appeared on at least eleven credits from
PowerBook goes to to Luke Ca to Below Deck, a
Black Lady's skeed show. But we're not here to talk
about any of those successes. No, no, no, not today.
That's not what this show is about. This show is
(01:32):
about failure. Welcome to the show, Jamel. How are you?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
I love that you listed my acting credits as if
I played anyone other than myself.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
This all counch.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
You rite them sag checks, keep up. I love how
they come out of nowhere. One day it might be
two dollars and thirteen cents. The next day it might
be one hundred and ten dollars. Like it's such random
amounts that I'm just like, oh, okay, but go.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Say, welcome to the business where you just don't know
if you're buying a piece of gum or paying your mortgage.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
We find them on the next episode of d Policy.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Do you before again, Do you have any acting desires
that are outside of playing a journalist or reporter or
sports journalists?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
No, no, no, I mean I you know. Those roles
were really surprising because I was a huge fan of
the Power Universe and so for them to actually be
thoughtful enough to include me, and it was like really
really a big honor. Uh and then black ladies said,
show I know Robin the d she's great and so uh,
(02:39):
these really are just people who have become you know,
friends looking out and have written.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Stuff for me.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
And I'm just like, I'm happy to play myself or
annoying journalists anytime, you know. But the Power fans still
haven't forgiven me because, uh, they didn't like the way
I grilled Zeke and uh like look, Rick was supposed
to have him ready and he didn't have his boy prepared,
so apparently, you know, I kind of got under their
(03:06):
skin a little bit.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
But yeah, that was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
But no, I don't you know, if something comes along
that is interesting, I'm happy to do it.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
So you know, if you got any leftover role you need,
a reporter.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
In church might hit you up.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Had I don't I want to hit you up. We
had a reporters a situation next, you.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Know, especially the workplace comedy you have going with the hospital.
One of the name is flat in my mind.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
It's like because some of our friends with the comedian.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
CP, who I know, Oh my god, she was brilliant.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yes, he was really really good and so uh yeah.
So if you if you need her a medical reporter
in the fictional hospital, let me know.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I got you so obviously, if it's not painfully obvious
to you all. I've known about Jamail Hill for many years.
Fun fact, when I worked at all Day, I ran
into her. She was having lunch at La Live and
I walked over to her and I was like, Jamel,
I'm a huge fan, love your work, you know, things
like that, and you were like, wow, thank you, I'm
having a one on one with my boss, So this is.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
This is good.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Your timing was impeccable, Like seeing people do like me
out here, look at.
Speaker 4 (04:14):
That what sounds of percent.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I was a huge fan of his and hers and
all the black things you guys did.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
The Different World was my favorite one.
Speaker 3 (04:22):
But you you know, listen, as a follower of you,
you it's like, I don't know if you leaving it,
I want to start at ESPN following you on Twitter specifically,
I don't know if like you leaving ESPN what it
did to people who are frustrated with you. It doesn't
matter how long you've been gone from the four letters
(04:44):
that always comes up in conversation. Is that frustrating? Do
you have any like feelings about leaving there? Because it's
like you always have to answer that no matter what
you're talking about, it always seems to lead back to that.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
No.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I mean, I was there for twelve years, so I
was in, you know, twelve years. In the last four
or five, I spent being on television just about every day,
and more than anything, like you reference his and hers
to me, that is something I will always take a
lot of great pride in is that even years later,
people remember the show. People love the show, love some
(05:18):
of the as you put it, the black things that
we did on the show, the very black things that
we did. And so that it's not something that I
am disappointed or looked like, oh, well, you know since
I left there. Now you know I left there in
twenty eighteen. I don't find it to.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Be any kind of indictment of what I've done since then.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
If people still remember me at ESPN, whether that be
good or bad. The only thing that is a little
hard to hear sometimes is when the younger folks say
I grew up watching you. I'll be like, oh, come over,
I'm not. No, It's like they treat me like I'm
an episode of Different World. I'm like, what grew up
watching Different World? It's like you grew up watching me?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Okay, sir, this is well into the two thousands, Thank
you very much.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
When I hear that, I hear that as well. And
it's just like, you know, people be like, man, I
remember watching when I was in elementary school. Now I
got kids, It's just like, how long was I doing this?
Because it ever feel like that long to be and
that's a that's a huge chasm. Although it might only
be ten years. You could be twelve and then twenty
two would have a kid, or even twelve and twenty, but.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
It just feels like I wasn't doing anything that long.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
That you should have had that much life and been
aware of me at both points in your life.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
This is very true.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
And it's like yeah, because and then I do realize
I haven't done it for a long time. I mean
my first professional year of journalism was nineteen ninety seven. Wow,
and so I've been doing this almost thirty years, and
of course because I started when I was five, But
it just it feels it doesn't feel as if my
(07:00):
career has lasted that long, and then to spend almost
half of it in one place. Yeah, that is It's
very sobering when I think of it that way. But
you know, I'm blessed because this business is volatile. It
is again in another one of those volatile states right now.
And to still be standing after thirty years and still
(07:20):
be able to do the things that I love is
to me the most rewarding part.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
I want you, as the kids say, to take me
through there, walk me through.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
I don't know if it was your dream job, but
I imagine as a journalist, reaching ESPN at the time
you were at ESPN felt like a major accomplishment.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
And it was at the time.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I feel like you were there before Bleach Report or
Barstool had they were nowhere near where they are now ESPN.
I wudn't even say ESPN has lost its luster, but
they didn't really have any competitors that were anywhere near there.
And you were there at the height you have the
six pm Sports Center and then one day you're going
somewhere else.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Was there any fear there where?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Like take us through that moment where you're like, okay,
I'm moving on and here's what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
So I got to ESPN in two thousand and six
and I was hired as what they referred to then
as like an independent contractor. So I wasn't even a
full salary Disney employee. I mean, I got a salary
for sure, but I had to pay my own medical
you know.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yes, yes, I had to.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Pay my own medical and my own four one K
all of that. I paid my own benefits, no way, Yes,
it is true. So that's how they used to do
independent contractors. Now, your salary was a pretty decent salary.
Like I, you know, I left the job. I was
a columnist, a sports columnist at the Orlando Sentinel, and
so it definitely paid me almost double what I was
(08:47):
making at the job in Orlando. But you have to
factor that you're paying for all your benefits, your expenses
change a little bit.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
But I was. I was still coming out of head
so it was fine.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
And so it was very a very different structure pay
wise than I was used to. That every week's is
there or every every every Thursday, you know, deposit or
you roll into the bank. And this we got paid
once a month, which was even even crazier.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I was like, what is this life like?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
And why am I out of money? After fold Ain's like,
I don't understand this life right, and so so it
was a big adjustment. And it was the first time
in my career my salary actually got reported on because
it leaked that the ESPN had hired this columnist out
of Orlando. And the first the story they got leaked
(09:41):
about my salary wasn't true.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Oh no, it was a lot higher.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Like they said, I was making two hundred thousand dollars
a year, and I was not making two hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
So they count your pockets and they count the wrong
number on top of that, right.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
On top of that, I mean, which I guess is
good and bad, but you know it maybe it works
in the sense of people then are like, oh, you're
worth that much or you ain't worth that much.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
It's going in both directions.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And so when I got there, I didn't I wasn't
hired as a television personality. I was hired to be
a columnist for ESPN dot com. I was replacing Skip Baylist,
who was writing for ESPN dot com and he stopped
writing so he could focus full time on television. And
obviously become the personality that he did. And you know
the great thing about being at ESPN is that you
(10:26):
get to do everything. And so I did radio, started
doing TV, was still writing, and then I made.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
The decision, you know, maybe around twenty.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Twelve, twenty thirteen, that I really needed to fully pursue
television full time at ESPN because, to be totally frank,
that's where all the money was. Ye and they're only
going to pay a writer so much, but you had
people at the network making five seven eight million dollars
a year. So it was just like you know, and
it wasn't even their contracts or hearing about him through
(10:57):
the grapevine that was left an imprint. It was actually
Matt Lauder because he had signed a new deal at
NBC and I think he was getting like twenty million
a year. And I was like, that's possible, I mean
what you know, and so I was like, Oh, let
me do this TV thing. I'm out here playing. So
(11:17):
but the hard thing about being at ESPN is that
there's a lot of really talented people that work there.
It's a constant fight for real estate, so you have
to kind of you got to get some breaks and
yeah I did.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
And Jalen Rose he left. The show was called Numbers
Never Lie.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
He left to do just concentrate fully on the NBA
doing an NBA countdown, and that created an opening. Mike
was already a host of the show, and they asked
me to join the show. And you know, the rest
of as they say, is history now. At the time,
ESPN was considered one of those jobs you just did
not leave, especially if you got TV that this was
supposed to be the pinnacle. It was not on my
(11:54):
vision board, by the way, like I didn't want to
do television like that was that was no, that was
not I even cared about doing. Because I was a
print journalist and back then there was a very hard
line between print journalists and broadcast journalists. Like print journalists,
I won't lie. We was God of Sidditydy'll.
Speaker 4 (12:16):
Feel a little better than right.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
We were.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
We were sadditi thinking like, oh, they ain't the real journalist.
We the real journalist. You know what I'm saying, Like
these little pretty people on TV, but they little suits
and they little perfect jailed hair, and like they ain't
in the trenches like we are. You know what I'm saying,
that was sort of the prevailing attitude, and because of
the rise of shows like Around the Horn and pt I.
(12:41):
Of course, sports reporters was always a staple, but you
started to see more journalists and columnists wind up making
the transition to TV because frankly, the money was too
good and so you know, once I made that transition,
it started doing his and hers, and then of course
we got the Sick of o'clock Sports Center. It was
the power of TV was pretty evident. So ESPN was
(13:03):
considered a destination job, maybe one of the best jobs
in the industry. And to your point, no, they didn't
have a ton of ton of competition and the idea
of leaving there most people were like, that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
But there were a.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Couple examples of people who left and were able to
be successful, Dan Patrick being one. Keith Oberman, he left
and he was able to do some successful things. But
it wasn't It was considered a big risk because this
was ESPN, and frankly, from a market standpoint, it's not
a ton of places that can pay you the kind
of money that they're paying you.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
So if you decide to leave, is.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
That you have to be comfortable with the fact that
what you left you may never get back to financially,
you may not get back there. Now you will be
happier in some other ways in the sense you have
freedom of movement, you get to say a little bit more,
you get to be more involved. Because the other thing too,
that ESPN wasn't doing there, Like you see how Stephen A.
(13:58):
Smith has his own YouTube showed able to do other things.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
They didn't play that.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
No, I thought that is at least even in the
scheme of like the media landscape that is still relatively
new for them. Yes, like the last two three years, baby, I.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Would say so.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
I mean, but they I think they realize now that
if you want to have these high value, big name
journalists and commentators like him, like Pat McAfee, is that
you're going to have to let them do other things
because that's the price of doing business. And so it's
much more accepted now that you would be able to
do these things.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
And so.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
When twenty eighteen came and I decided to leave, and
I do always have to reiterate that to people. I
decided to leave, I.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Still had three years left on my contract. I did
not have to leave then.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
And I always Jamil got fired from me yestory here.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
I was like, I don't remember it that way.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
I never I never got fired.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
I told them that I wanted to leave and I
thought our time had kind of to an end. And
they usually they don't want to let you out of
that kind of contract when you have three.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Years left, but they they did because.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
You know, I think they were facing so much heat
frankly for having me there that it became advantageous for
them as well, and me asking them to leave frankly
relieve them of being put in a bad life.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Wait reminded people who don't know why were they facing
heat for having you?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
They were facing heat because of some comments that I
said about Donald Trump the first presidency.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
And so Donald Trump one.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Point, zh I had a lot to say about him,
and so yeah, I said it on social media. As
I have to correct people, I didn't say it on Twitter, okay,
I mean I didn't say it. Rather on sports. To them,
you know, it was like you tuned in and I
started the show where guess what, Donald Trump's a racist? Like, no,
it's not what happened. And because of my comments, you know,
it really put ESPN in a in a weird that
(16:00):
they weren't used to being there, and this was you know,
they were already kind of you know, the people on
on the right, conservatives were coming after them because they
were sort of fresh off giving Kaitlyn Jenner the Arthur
ash Awards, which the conservatives lost their mind about, which
is really hilarious when you think about it today, because
Kaitlyn Jenner is a big conservative.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
It's like, you would have thought gotta been cool, but
it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
So they gave Kaitlin Clinton the Arthur Ashe Award, and
then people started saying ESPN and went woke and all
this and yeah, you know, their favorite word. And in fact,
they used to call me and and my friend Michael
Smith our sports center woke center.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
It was just like we wasn't doing nothing but showing
up black like that was that was I guess. I
was like, wow, we just really literally came to work and.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
All of a sudden, we are you know, they acted
like we when they turned the Sports Center, Mike and
I was on there and Dashkin's with our fists. Race
is in the air opening every sports right exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
Like the hell with the giants? What's going on in borgon?
State like, no, we were still covering sports.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
And so ESPN was in a very challenging moment for
them because they'd always been a political they'd always been
the cool kids, well liked by pretty much everybody, and
they found themselves just by virtue of having me and
Mike and Bomani and they Dan lebratard that people were
starting to change how they perceived the company. And I
(17:37):
don't think it's because anything different was being said. I
think it's just literally they saw negroes and it got
a little frightening for some of them, and you got
a Cuban guy, you got women.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
They're like, what kind of anarchy is happening in that ESPN?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Where are these old white dudes We've been used to
growing up with us giving us the highlights.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
We don't like this.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
So next thing, you know, they had, you know, pretty
much been brand at ESPN a liberal institution. But all
that being said, it was and listen, I say this
all the time. It's the longest job I ever had,
it's the best job I ever had. And while the
end was a little awkward, it doesn't take away from
all the things that I did there. And so once
(18:19):
I made the decision to leave. It was a little frightening.
I mean I had some stuff lined up, but you know, again,
it goes from that direct deposit every Thursday to like
every day.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I'm hustling.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
You know, I'm out here slanging these opinions, like what
are we doing? You know, so I'm stacking you. You know,
I'm selling opinions off the truck. All of a sudden,
I masterpe I'm an ice cream woman.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Like what.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I had to, for the first time in my career
become an entrepreneur.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
And that was a really scary.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Thing because journalists don't do math. That's we're very bad
at it, like for the most part. And I think
we're you know, because we're more creatively inclined. We're accustomed
to thinking along the lines of creativity and not actually
as business people. So for the first time in twenty eighteen,
I actually had to become a business woman.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
That makes so much sense. If you're lucky enough to
live a long life, often that comes with a lot
of transitions. You know, you didn't think that job, whatever happened,
now it's the greatest job ever. Now you want to
move on. But you've been used to a certain type
of job, and now you got to learn a brand
new whole skill set. And speaking about that entrepreneur thing,
you you in a similar vote as I am now
(19:36):
where you got to like sell these ideas. But your
career is not as much in your control as it
used to be. Now you're pitching the networks and things
like that. So catch us up on the last few
years where it's been you know, what has it been
like for the last few years where it's not being
you know, steady paycheck, even back to when you were
first a journalist, and everything you pitch or that gets
(19:58):
developed doesn't always get made.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
So right now, I would say, is a really frightening
time in entertainment and in journalism. You know a lot
of people, I mean, keV, you and I are here
in LA and this place is not recovered since the
strike at all, right, And the strike was when I
really it was really very eye opening because then you saw,
(20:24):
or at least I saw, with how connected the entertainment
industry is to the media industry. I mean I knew
they were sort of loosely connected, but then that connection
was like real vibrant, like all of a sudden, you know,
this media company is deciding not to hire people because
they're like, well, it's a strike, and then we got
to conserve money. And because you have so many companies
now that have multiple divisions, they do film, TV and media, right,
(20:46):
so everything's all tumbled up together, and journalism is essentially
under monopoly rule where you have like six.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
People who own all the media.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
And that makes it even more challenging whenever there's any
kind of economic subtraction. And so you know, the last
I would say three years have been tough. It have
been really tough because the podcast industry changed a lot.
When I first started podcasting in twenty nineteen, that was
like that was like when.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
The gold rush happened.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
You know, not that I was alive then, but I imagine
where people hit, you know, the gold rush. It was
probably like the oil rush where you just like everybody
get in the check.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I try to tell people that it was like people
rented studios and I mean, even me, I'm so grateful
I signed a long term lease because that money. And
I thought when the pandemic happened, I was like, oh,
the bottom's going to fall out, and the opposite happened.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
It like jumped up.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
But then it and it fell out worse than I
could have ever and.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Has it recovered for no, it is not a lot
of people including.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Me, No it hasn't, you know, like you, I was
living in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, like that was the time,
and I think because we were inside that the industry,
the number of people listening to podcasts like really exploded
and so it felt like a good time. A lot
of media companies, they were you know, handing out big
contracts because they wanted names, and they were like, okay,
(22:15):
we wanted people who have the potential to attract audiences.
And then I think there were some you know examples
where that's not always the best way to grow a podcast,
and there was some setbacks for some people, and then
that started a general industry contraction, which you know, I
wound up leaving Spotify, and like you, during that time
(22:37):
thinking like oh, as you said, during the pandemic, like
I was able, I was. I was very financially healthy
during the pandemic because we was.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
In sad and so.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
And when that kind of you know, wore off and
during the pandemic is when I decided to scale. And
one thing I definitely learned is especially if you are
a black entrepreneur. Scaling is so difficult and you know,
like you are rented a I'm leasing. I'm currently in
(23:09):
of this in my office here, I have a podcast
space upstairs that was built for me by Spotify.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
You know, shout out to them. So uh they did that.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
That was part of the scaling and us doing more
business together beyond just my podcast. And so because I
created a podcast network with them, and so the goal
was to do a bunch of podcasts out of this studio,
you know, let and really build something, you know, build
a network, and Spotify we had some differences and opinion
(23:44):
about what that looked like and how that was going,
and so ultimately it was best that we separate, all right,
so I'll go through another separation with a major company.
And because you know, I mean, I think at that
point we had two podcasts on the roster and it
was a third one that was coming, but that never
(24:05):
happened because of our separation. And so bottom line is
that the scaling up didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
And meanwhile, I've.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Signed this lease in this building for you know, I
signed the least for like five years, and so it
is let me tell you about not my best moment.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
If I can turn back the hands of times, trust.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
Me, I would not be we are. We made the
exact same mistake the exact same time.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
I'm still at the sound stage, which.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Everybody thinks, oh man, you got the big studio brother.
If they would have let me out of that least
two years ago, I would have been gone, keV.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
If they came to me right now, I pack up
all my stuff and I'd be like bye, like I
would leave here, like I got warrants, like straight up,
like it would be I go because you know, people
should know, like as one of the results of the pandemic,
it's like commercial leasing space has like cratereah, you know,
(25:12):
and it's like, you know a lot of people are
working remotely, working out home, and even in the podcast,
you know, industry, it's like there are you know, I
like to think I have reasonable rates, but people are
you know, deciding to do this out of home or
doing it much cheaper cheaper, And so it's not a
(25:32):
great time to be in that business either.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
And so yeah, this is this is my albatross right now,
is this damn building that I'm in. So you got
some friends, Cam.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Hollow I thought in my studio, I was like, oh man,
we're gonna be renting it out, and it's just like, no,
you're not.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
You're not.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
People are doing Zoom and stream Yard and Riverside, and
I think even audiences have accepted less production value. So
you don't have to be on a set. I think,
I tell people all the time, we can consume a
lot of media like this, so there's a limit to
how how much or how good it has to be
for you to even care more. With Jamil Hill right
(26:16):
after this, Okay, so you're you're you're stuck in a
(26:37):
in a least like I am thanking the Lord January
twenty twenty sixth. I'm released from the shackles of that
that building.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
You ain't got that far Togo. Oh my god, you
see the promise.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Land Man, I'm right there. I'm right there.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
But also you have like projects, you know, like the
podcast that that didn't come to fruition. You had TV
show and documentary documentaries like tell Us about some of
the things that were in development that you were excited
about banking on, but you know, didn't end up happening
or happening the way you thought they were going to.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I mean, this town is so much it's hurry up
and wait right, and so you know again, so this
in this entertainment industry wide contraction is happening where you
would think that they'd be buying more content because the
people's appetite seems to be endless when it comes to
content that is actually not what's happening at all. And
(27:37):
the one thing that can get very frustrating for creators
and then I think especially black creators in particular, is
that you're constantly at the mercy of somebody else.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
You know, we've had projects my production company, Loge Freeway Media,
which I do, which I'm partnered with my best friend
from college, Kelly Carter, who's an entertainment journalist, and I mean,
we've had like, there was a comedy that we really
felt really good about that we are uh, well technically
we are still developing it with Gabrielle Union. And it
(28:12):
was the one that we thought felt like was in
the raws form in the sense of like, oh, we
kind of had the idea, we had the concept, and
you know, we threw it out there, but we we
honestly didn't expect to sell it.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
That quickly.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
We had some other things that are much further on,
much more concrete, but they love the idea, and so
we initially looked like we had something worked out with Showtime.
They bought the pilot, so we're feeling really good about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Like, yes, we sold something.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
And as what happens sometimes in this business is like
the amount of times that people pay you not to
work in Hollywood is really kind of staggering. It is
you're like, but you already paid me for this, but
now you don't want it, and so but I get
to keep the check okay, right, which I know to
some people listening that might say, oh that sounds great.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
No, it's not because you need it made.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
You need it.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
May because that's where the real money comes from.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
It's like, Hey, we're talking about one time check versus
you getting mini checks.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
You want mini check.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
It's not just one right, And it's not like the
what they pay you to not do, it's not you know,
it's not life changing money ever. But so we we
had to deal with them, and then they decided that
they want to switch up and not focus because this
was a thirty minute comedy and they want to focus
then because of some successes they had on their network
(29:30):
on like our long drama and all drama d's and
dramas and whatever, and so they said, hey, we're kind
of not doing this comedy thing right now.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I'm like, okay.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
So then we take the script that we had and
we reworked, and you know, it's great because like Gabrielle Union,
she was just epeeing it, but she loved the script
so much that she's like, I think I might want
to do this, Like let's see where this goes. And
it's like, hey, your name in a room. We feel
good about those champs, but even that, like you, you
(30:03):
can have many stars attached to something and they still
like no, right, And so we're still developing that. But that,
I mean, can we started developing that project in twenty nineteen, okay,
and you know it's enough to drive you crazy. But
(30:25):
that's why I think it's important that, especially in LA,
that when there are at events and things that where
we're all in the same space and can commiserate and
share these stories. And that's this way everybody isn't thinking okay,
so it's not just me and I heard the guy
who created Squeak games talk about his road into getting
(30:46):
that made ten years. Ten years everybody said no, that
is man, everybody, and all it took is one yes
and he got it the And I think hearing those
stories gives me a little more fuel when the low
moments come to where you're like, I can't sell I
(31:07):
can't sell nothing out here. I can't sell ice to
a penguin, Like what is going on? And so yeah,
we had to set back of that. And then there's
this documentary that I've been trying to do for the
last three years that is at various stops and starts,
and you know those Hearing those nose constantly makes me
(31:28):
really respect the people who are in this business. And
I don't care what type of movie it is it
could be, so playing part sixty two, I don't care.
You get it made.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
I got so much respect for you because you got
it made. You know.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
I've certainly had some wins, and I was just up
for an Emmy for producing and writing for the Simone
Biles docuseries Small Rising that's on Netflix, you know, And
I've had other little successes, but it's of course it's
the nose that really with you, because you feel like
(32:03):
you go through these periods in this business where you
feel like you're just not making any progress and that
you are just kind of flying in a in a
in a you know, just a certain flying pattern that
you just like, I'm not you just right, You're just circling.
And and so, you know, with these last couple of
years being you know, really slow.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
In this business, and not just it with entertainment, but.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Also you know, another another great way that I certainly
was able to supply my income was with speaking engagements
and me and some of my friends who are kind
of in the business of you know, talking about race
or politics or my case sports, race and politics altogether.
Because of this national attack on DEI, on anything black.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
It's like universities that basically.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
Stopped calling oh wow.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah, they are basically I mean they you know, universities
organizations because they don't want to come up under fire
because all it takes is you know, one person to say, well,
look who they bring in the campus and look what
they're talking about, and that's DEI. Because so many states
just outlawed they just put every everything that's not white,
they just make a d.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
They don't listen.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
And it's like that you know, but that's the political
reality that we're living in.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And so a lot of you know, my friends who.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Go and talk to young people, young universities, or even
just talking about what it means to be a black
journalist in this moment that's considered now controversial to be
saying on college campuses.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
So how did you, man? You got like a you
getting hit from every possible angle career.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Wise, Yeah, I'm catching you.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
Catch you got Hollywood alone?
Speaker 3 (33:51):
If it was just that that's a lot you've got
podcasting along with you. It was just that that's a
lot you got speaking engaged with, which, you know, after
the pandemic you think, okay, we can go outside again.
Now outside's open, but your specific areas of expertise which
were once a commodity, and maybe even you know, right
(34:13):
around George Floyd, I always say it like this, I
don't know a better way to say it. But it
was the I'm sorry black people money was flowing.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Every company guilt money.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Oh, it was so.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
Good brand deals.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
We was having a time and it was like.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
We from black squares and the combination of black squares
of the pandemic, it was like, you know what we
really haven't, I think, because it was like, for whatever reason,
during that time in America, it was very highlighted the
discrepancy in pay. It wasn't like, really didn't have anything
to do with George Floyd's passing, except that people were
(34:50):
like kind of calling brands to task, like y'all say this,
but look at your c suite, look at your boardroom,
Look at what you pay even you know, a white
influencer versus a black influencers. Look how much you invest
in these shows. It was like, we see you, we
hear you, we apologize, here's our checkbook, here's us saying
are sorry.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
And that was really just to bring things more equal, right.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
That wasn't even us getting a hit.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
No, it was like, oh, we didn't realize we were
having you at the bottom. Now let's at least bring
you up to something that's remotely you know, reasonable.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
I don't think we ever even reached what white no
counterparts were making. It was just like, well, the discrepancy
can't be as large as it was. And then you know,
as time went on, and really the combination of time
and Trump really was like we ain't doing this and
(35:47):
nobody's really calling us a task for it.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
So now it feels like even worse for black creator.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
It is because now you know, we've seen these organizations
which wind up getting docs like you look at what
happened with.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
The Fearless Fund.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
You know, you have two, uh you know, black women
who to start decide to start a venture capital fund
for other black businesses, black women who are entrepreneurs, which
you know should be to me very non controversial because
black people have such a little access to capital and
I think that's something like somewhere between one and three
(36:22):
percent we're represented in these venture capital endeavors. And so
they were trying to start a fund that acknowledged just
how difficult it is for black businesses to be able
to to scale and to grow and to be supported.
And they got sued. They got sued, and I'm not sure,
(36:47):
so you know, it's I don't remember every single detail.
I know they got sou and they they I think,
had to do things kind of another way. And but
that was that was partly what was happening is that
you would get these sort of white conservatives that would say, like, oh,
fearless fun, that's discriminatory against white and then they wind
(37:11):
up in a court battle, and it's just like.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Basically the opposite of what happened in the pandemic.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
It is. I mean, you know, I was trying to
follow the logic up so like on one end, y'all
keep telling us to pull ourselves up.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
By the bootstraps. We do it, and then you sue
us about it because you're not included. Total helped me
say like help me, help me, help me, help you.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I want to get this.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
That is so black perfect, But you know it's true.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
It's just so like all of those kinds of initiatives
like of course, obviously you know, a more recent example
is Target, Like.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
So they started to say that, yeah, target all.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Of these different companies that in twenty twenty. It was
like black folks, we saw, we should listen now it's
like shut up, sit down, we don't want to see
y'all nowhere. And because they have the force of the
government behind it, that's what makes it different. And you know,
we have some dishonest characters that are going around and
(38:16):
really attacking these businesses and these universities. And as a result,
if you are these universities that are bringing in you know,
a variety of speakers, suddenly you get a little afraid
about bringing in the speakers that you used to. And
so it's really been a wide scale attack and it's
not just limited to the speaking things, because even with
(38:37):
the media and how that much that has changed is
it's like a lot of things that have been normalized
that shouldn't. And so right now, I think, look, if
I wish I had less dignity every day, I'd be like, God,
why did you bless me with respect for myself and
dignity and actually caring about the type of person I am,
(38:58):
Because I'm you right now, if I wanted to do
a right wing switch up, it's to be the perfect time.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Oh my god, win over there.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
You might make a billion dollars for real.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
I'm serious, And I'm just like, oh, why do I
have to have respect for my people and love them?
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Jesus?
Speaker 4 (39:16):
You know, it's so funny sometimes it's a black person
to be like you. You know, in the long run,
you're better off this way.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
But the way it be looking, it'd be like you
can see people taking the play right.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
I was like, it's despicable, but I kind of give.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
You, yeah, you like, man, you see them people being
like bro, I got to take the check. You. I
remember when you went in talk like this. You I remember,
and I remember that's not even black people only. I
remember white journalists like you didn't used to talk this way.
But you see the money you like, man, Now you
start saying some stuff and all of a sudden, you
got your own show.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
You're on network, You're on this and that.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Yeah, I mean, I see. I understand how how it happens.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
And because when times get hard, the bills start coming,
So like, what do I have to say? Okay, that's it,
all right, I guess I can. I can start there,
so you know. I mean, but that is the part.
I think when you're facing adversity or when you are
running into some challenges, it really does show who you
(40:22):
really are. Because there's plenty of ways in the last
couple of years I could have made my life a
lot easier if I would have again had far less
respect for myself.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
But I ain't ruled out. Only fans will kill if
I routed out.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Listen, that's the old girl what she said she made
forty two million.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
I was like, yeah, what what part of what do
I have to show?
Speaker 1 (40:45):
I just I just need to know just in case
these times get too hard. I'm like, if I start
showing feet over there, I don't want to hear nothing
from you because I might be showing people.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Then we'll we'll work our way. I got an a
and then next thing you know, you nap.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
Here we go after this quick break, will be right
back with more from Jamel Hill from the outside. Look again,
(41:34):
you wouldn't think you have had any negativity right, or
or losses in your career, but it's obvious. I mean
I know because I just know how the industry is.
We just don't really talk about our losses, which is
one of the main reasons we do this podcast. But
how do you keep the faith? How do you keep
your like mental health well during because I would say
(41:56):
working in entertainment and specifically in LA, you deal with
an unhealthy amount of rejection that most industries don't.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
You don't have UH in the entertainment industry.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
And then you also you specifically have the negativity on
like socials. Right, it's at least on Twitter. Your Instagram
doesn't seem to be as bad. But on Twitter you
John Snow pulling the sword out like every day. It's like, bro,
where is the cavalry? Where's the people from the riverland
to come to your help?
Speaker 4 (42:26):
But like how.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Every time, every day your words get twisted, probably more
than anybody else I follow you be you are.
Speaker 4 (42:36):
Very clear with your words, and they make a whole.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
That whole.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
If you say I like pancakes, I mean you hate waffles.
That happens to you every day on Twitter. So how
do you maintain because you know, you and your husband
seem to be very happy, you know outside look again,
you seem to be, you know, doing okay. But is
that true? And if so, how do you keep that
positive outlet?
Speaker 1 (43:00):
He And I'm so glad that these periods of you know,
career uncertainty that I'm going through.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Right now, that he has really been a rock for me.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
And and of course I don't expect him to, you know,
like of course your partners are to support you, listen
to you, all those things, But I also am very
cognizant of the fact that I don't want him to
think he's got to fix me, right, and so like
you don't have to fix me, like you listening, supporting,
(43:33):
like that's enough, you know, I mean, I'll do of course,
we'll talk about it, but I'll do my internal work
so that like I'm not putting all of that necessarily
on you. And he I'll say the clean version of
what he said. But the last time we kind of
had a talk about like I was telling him about
some things career wise that I was just feeling really
uncertain about, Like technically right now, keV, I don't really
(43:55):
have a job. Okay, I don't know, but uh, you.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Know, uh you're still doing this for you ain't sending
me no invoice or nothing.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
No, no invoice.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
I was like, I'm a little unemployed right now, so
to speak. I mean, I'm still doing my writing for
The Atlantic obviously, and uh but we rapped season one
of Politics already and figured out what you know, then
the next move will look like. And so at any rate,
you know, as I'm facing this sort of level of uncertainty,
I talked to him about it and he he said, well,
(44:31):
I think you need to you need to remind yourself
who you are. And he was like, remind yourself you
are Jamail Hill and.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
That carries way, that's Marlow Stanfield. My name is my name.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
Correct, Like seriously, like I don't know if you know
all the time, like I be cool with you, but
I'm I'm never unaware of Jamail Hill.
Speaker 4 (44:53):
You are Jamail Hill.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Well it can you know, as you said, we we
live in a city and we're in this industry, you
face a complete unhealthy amount of rejection.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
And so it does, you know, for the first time, and.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
You know, really maybe since I first started in this business,
like I'm going through a little self doubt and that
is a foreign feeling for me and wondering like, Okay.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Where do I need to pivot, how do I need
to do this.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
I've been talking to a lot of people just to
kind of figure out like, oh, okay, I see what
they did there, and just picking their brain and just
being able to share.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
But it can, yeah, it could get It could.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Get tough because people do see the outside picture and
they think that everything's just perfect and rosy.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
But it it takes a lot to.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Do this, and you know, and especially like that's why
I love the fact I haven't started trip but yet
it's at home.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
It's right on my nightd I got two books ahead
of it.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
It's all right, and then I then I got then
I'll get to yours.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
But just seeing some of the things that you.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Put out on social media about it was really it
really resonated with me because when I wrote my memoir,
you know, I didn't make the big New York Times
bestseller list, and I was crushed about it.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
I was really crushed about it.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
I wanted to I wanted to ask you how that,
because I assume, just from knowing what I know about you,
that that had to be a goal.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
It was, it was, And then I did, you know,
I did in talking to some other authors, and they
made me feel so much better. They were like, do
you know how hard it is to sell books? And
you know this because you've been through it a couple
of times. It is hard to sell books. Now my sales,
my sales were good, they were healthy. And I get
no better delight than when somebody rolls up on me
(46:40):
and says like, I read your book and it did
this for me. And because you're choosing to spend a
lot of time with somebody, when you read their book,
you know that's yeah, like that's two hundred three hundred
pages you and them, and so that's an honor that
people would do that and finish the book. But I
was crushed by that because as a writer and my
first book. It's like, of course, you know, you want
(47:03):
you want to be able to say that because it
helps you sell the second book. That's the most important part.
It's like it helps you get that other book. And
so it's just like okay. And I remember sharing that
with my husband and he was like really surprised to
hear that, like, oh you I was like, yeah, I
just the reviews were great and everything, and it was
(47:24):
trending in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
And I was like, and I didn't make it. And
I was just like, oh, and I try. You know.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
I had to kind of correct my framing with that.
It's like making a list of not making a list
does not does not is not indicative of.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
The book, right, And but it was.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
It was nevertheless good motivation and good perspective for me
to have. I have another book that's coming out next year.
It's the children's book though, and so, uh, you know,
which was a different kind of writing because my memoir,
you know, I mean it certainly has some adult stuff
in it, for sure, and writing for kids is very
different because you have to pretend like the world is
(48:04):
not on fire, right, and you have to give them
some hope, which was that wasn't the easiest, all right,
because I was like, oh, how do I pretend that
we are not all doomed?
Speaker 2 (48:18):
I don't know how to do that?
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Do that every day to make a funny video every day,
I've got to avoid fire and brimstone, it feels like,
and be like, man, what do y'all think about the
best breads y'all?
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Because we all.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
See what's happening, and it's just like, I can't talk
about that every day.
Speaker 4 (48:34):
I'm gonna lose my mind exactly.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
So this it was, I think, cleansing to write a
different type of thing, yea, and one that forced me
into a different mental space so that I wasn't writing
and thinking about like, oh, the first book didn't make
the New York Times bestseller list, and this was you know,
I didn't put a lot of pressure and expectations on myself.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
So I'm really happy with how it turned out.
Speaker 4 (48:57):
Yeah, and I listen, I totally get it.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
I I was pre grieving not making the list because
till this day still I didn't say this publicly, but
my book did not ever catch up to marriage be hard.
I don't know how I made the list. Excuse me,
I don't know how I made the list, do not
know how. I went as hard as I could, but
numbers wise, we barely made it the first time with
(49:22):
marriage v hard and I was in the same category
as common. I think I was blessed that the category
I was in the second time had fifteen spots and
I was thirteen, whereas marriage be hard had ten spots
and I was eight. If I was in the same category,
I wouldn't have made it. But people were like, you know,
trying to be well, kem, you know, blah blah blah.
You shouldn't feel this way, because when I had already
(49:44):
accepted that I wasn't going to get it, my friends
were like, it still matters, and it was like, it
doesn't matter what y'all say. I have set this goal.
If I don't reach the goal that I've set for myself,
it doesn't matter. If it's a logical goal, it doesn't
matter that the money is guaranteed. None of that matters.
My goal was to make the list, So if I
don't reach that goal. First of all, if you don't
make it the first week, your chances of ever making it.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
Yeah, And I don't people realize that you brought up
something important.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
What I didn't realize how much it mattered what other
books were being released. Yes, so I think the week
that my book came out, I feel like it was
Matthew Perry's memoir which was huge and uh, and it
was somebody else's memoir another big one that was like enormous,
and and your publisher they tried to you know, they
(50:33):
know when certain books are coming out, so they're like, okay,
we'll make sure you ain't coming out's book is. But
but all that stuff matter and it's inexact formula.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
That's another part about it.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
Yeah, Amazon or audible audible sales don't count.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
It's needed to do which I didn't know certain bulk sales. So,
like I said, I did a lot of speaking engagements
at universities and things, and they all bought my book
for sure. But the is that doesn't always come toward
the New York's as bestseller because it's considered a bulk thoughts,
and they.
Speaker 3 (51:05):
Want you to do independent book sales. But like for me,
same issue. I you know, we did a book tour
both times. And you think it helps you if you're
talking sheer numbers, but sometimes it hurts you or they
think you fudge the numbers, and it's just like, broh and.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
You don't know you.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
When I saw Kamala and Matthew, I think Kamalave, Matthew McConaughey,
Priscilla Presley, Bill O'Reilly all released or in the thing
my week, and I'm just like, bro, I'm not I'm
not that person. And the black people couldn't go to Target.
I was just like, bro, forget it. You're right, you know,
just like this ain't for me. But also, I'm not
(51:42):
an author. I'm not a writer, so I would feel
very different if you, like, you are a writer. So
it's like this is your thing, So I imagine it's
like it's also happening during this all this other stuff too.
And I think that's just so I appreciate you for
being honest, because I've talked to other people and everybody
who I've talked to who didn't make list is always
like broken up.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
They just don't post about it.
Speaker 3 (52:05):
But right, we're mostly people want to do well in
the things that they do. They want to do well
in everything they attempt. And it's not always money, you know,
oriented it's not always.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
This is the most extensive I've talked about it, like
I've never said like, I've never expressed my public disappointment
because maybe a part of me, I guess, because I
am a writer by trade, you just kind of hit
on it.
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Like I think there's a part of me that felt
a little bit of shame about it.
Speaker 4 (52:31):
Yeah, like I should have made the.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
List because I write for a living.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
So of course I should have made the list, you know,
And that was really hard hard to get over.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
But I think it.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Was Lovey who said this. Lovely John's who said that.
I do love her, and she was great when I
was writing the book. She was somebody who was a
good sounding board for me. But it is true she
was like, girl, I don't care how much time passed,
don't ever stop selling that book, no matter what, Like,
don't start, you know, because that look, Barack Obama's first
(53:03):
book flopped really mean quote unquote unquote at first, and
then he got hot enough streets and well this all
goes back to why I might wind up on only
fans so I can sell that book.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Cap That's why I'm going with this.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
Well, listen, Jamel, I truly appreciate it. I do want
to say this about your book. It reminds me of
like great films and great performances. Eddie Murphy to me,
should have an oscar for Jimmy Early his role in
Jimmy Early. It doesn't matter that he didn't win Alan
Arkin much respect to you. That's Eddie Murphy's oscar. But
(53:48):
many great films, great acting performances, great sports performances, they
don't win. But that doesn't It never changes how people
feel about the thing.
Speaker 4 (53:58):
That they read.
Speaker 3 (53:59):
And now I'm glad that people have told you, because
at the end of the day, the awards and accolades
and the money is great, but the true test of
time is how your work made people feel, you know.
Speaker 4 (54:10):
What I mean.
Speaker 3 (54:11):
If it was you were on the list and it
didn't mean anything to anybody, you know, obviously probably you
would rather have it mean something to somebody than than
to be awarded and people be like, I didn't read it,
I didn't like it, I hated it, you know. So
I hope that you take some solace in the fact
that the book is a good piece of work. It's
not reflective of your writing skill or ability or anything
(54:33):
like that. And nobody even knows how this works except
New York and Times themselves. I think it's purposely mysterious,
like it's not an example.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
It's like they don't want people to know the formula
because then they'll feel like people will try to sell
to that, and so like they do keep it purposely
under a bit of a shroud of mystery. So but listen,
that won't be our last book. And even this children's
book was a detour into what I never expected to
be writing that. But I still have more books than
(55:06):
me because ultimately I want to write fiction.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
And so.
Speaker 1 (55:10):
You know, I do believe that one day I will
I will make the Listen.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
I believe it. I believe you're far too talented to
not make it. And I think you know, like sports,
sometimes your down seasons is where you really learn how
to be great. You know, it's them championships that you
don't win. And like as we record this, I don't
know when it'll air, But like the Aces, for example,
(55:36):
this season, you you would never think they'd be playing
the way they're playing right now based on how they
were playing at the beginning of thirteen man, I said,
and now they as we record this, there are two
games away from winning final. I don't know they're gonna
win or lose, but I know I didn't think they
would even be here at the beginning of the season.
Speaker 4 (55:55):
But anyway, thank you, Jamel, He'll be.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
I appreciate the peptis.
Speaker 3 (55:59):
Of course, before we let you go, let people know
where they can follow you, what they should look forward to,
all the.
Speaker 4 (56:04):
Things you say at the end of a podcast.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
Okay, first of all, buy my damn books, number one
by the book.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
All right, It's available wherever books are, so you could
find it. Okay, it's not a big deal, but no,
people can catch me across all the socials. I really
you know, one of the pivots I'm making is really.
Speaker 2 (56:30):
Going hard on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (56:31):
So I have like a ton of YouTube content, so
you know, make sure that people like and subscribe and
and check that out. And you know, they can definitely
catch my writing in the Atlantic, of course, and hopefully
they'll go back and listen to politics. We had a
great first season, a lot of really strong voices, and
it's speaking to the moment that we're in right now.
Speaker 3 (56:53):
Perfect ladies and gentlemen, this is not my best moment.
Kevin on stage and Jamail Hill, thank you so much
for listening. Watching, reviewing and we'll see you next week.
Speaker 2 (57:03):
Oh by coming by.
Speaker 3 (57:21):
Sound Shines Comming.
Speaker 4 (57:27):
This has been a Unanimous Media original.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
Not My Best Moment was produced by iHeart Podcasts and
Unanimous Media. It was supposed by Me Kevin Frederick, Executive
produced by Stephen Curry, Eric Payton and Charlotte Sumter je
co executive producer Kelenna Maria Cutney. The executive producers of
the iHeart Podcast are Sean Titone and Jason English.
Speaker 4 (57:47):
This series was.
Speaker 3 (57:48):
Produced by Peter Calter and Jabari Davis. Co producer Kurt Redmond.
Special thanks to Stephen Curry and Will Pearson. Not My
Best Moment as a production of Unanimous Media and iHeart Podcast.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visits the iHeart
Radio app, ap a podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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