June 20, 2023 • 30 mins
Singer-songwriter Sara Bareilles (Waitress, Girls5Eva) chats with Brooke about privacy, self-doubt, and what it’s like to fight for — and win — an authentic career. Sara also gets candid about the lingering effects of her parents' divorce, including why she and fiancé Joe Tippett waited to get engaged. Plus, we dig into her newest role mentoring up-and-coming musicians on Audible’s Breakthrough.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
What do you do when life doesn't go according to
plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one,
or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this
is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told
by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down
with a guest to talk about the times they were
knocked off course and what they did to move forward.
(00:27):
Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all
are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and
every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice
answers one question, now what.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I've played hundreds of shows before I had any kind
of profession, all your own materials. Yeah, I mean I
started my very first gig. I played I Will Survive
with a drum machine on my keyboard, and I don't
even think I could really even play the chords properly.
I think I just just banking on the charm of that.
(01:10):
But you certainly have you learn you learn the way? Yeah,
but yeah, I think you know. I pursued music not
really as a choice, but it just always felt like
my calling.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
My guest today has the voice of an angel, Sarah
Brellis is a singer, songwriter, actress, and author. She's dazzled
audiences on Broadway and shows like Waitress and Into the Woods.
She stars in Peacock's hilarious Girls, five Eva and In
Case That's Not Enough. She's also sold millions of albums
and won multiple Grammys. I love learning more about her
(01:50):
origin story and think it's badass how hard she has
fought to keep her voice and career authentic to who
she is. I truly don't know another or more quite
like her. So here is Sarah Burrells. Sarah Burrellis. Let's
(02:10):
just jump right in, and I want to say thank
you so much for coming on the show. I was
just so honored when I heard that you were open
to it and wanted to come on. So just thank you.
I've been a fan for an incredibly long time and
I appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Thank you right back, Atcha, I adore you. I'm so
happy to be talking and sorry for I'm having terrible allergies,
so I sound like I have a cold, but Galin.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
It's the absolute worst. We were just talking about that. Now.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
It's funny because sometimes I almost wish that I didn't
do any research just because I like to just have
like a girlfriend conversation. But one of the things that
is so striking to me is the versatility of your talent,
versatility of your career, the longevity of it, and how
(03:06):
how you're still able to maintain this. It's almost like
an anonymity. And I mean that in the best possible
I mean it is a huge compliment.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yes, no, it's I can actually really live a very
normal life. I really I would not wish fame, like
real fame, like the kind of fame you have on
my worst enemy. And I hope that doesn't count terrible,
but it does. The same is the worst byproduct of
getting to be an extraordinary artist, Like I think it's
(03:40):
the it's so toxic and it's so distorting, and I
think I'm I'm actually just literally a little too boring.
I think the press is not that like I'm just
not doing anything that's that interesting.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So yeah, oh god, I don't agree, but I will
say that, especially now, I mean social media, it's like
that just was one of the worst things that could
have ever happened to me. Yeah, just because it was
there was no escape whatsoever. And even in say in
thinking that I was going to say this to you.
(04:15):
I thought, God, it's we live in such a different time.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Now if you ask younger people, you know, what do
you want? They say, I want to be famous.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
People don't say I want to do this, or I
have this vocation or practice that a part of my
creative my creativity or and it's such a different cultural shift.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I really feel like my fancy will tell you, like,
I don't have a poker face, like I don't and
this is a blessing and a curse, but I really
don't have another speed like It's just it's what you
see is what you get. The sort of authentic barebones
route was sort of the only road for me to walk,
(04:57):
I think, and survive.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
What were you like as a little girl?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I was, I think, very awkward and precocious. And I've
always been someone who is like very honest, not always
have the most tact like honesty first, even if it's
I had to learn tact much later in my life.
(05:23):
But always very tenderhearted, really sensitive, always be very sensitive,
so get my feelings very easily. And I really love
people and I love I always refer to it as
emotional architecture. It's like the way we the way our
Psyche's workers I find to just be endlessly fascinating.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Those are qualities, though, that don't make it very easy
to survive in this industry. You know, I think it's
painful to feel so much.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I totally agree, But I do think, at least for me,
especially in this decade of my life, I have come
to appreciate that tenderness so much, and the fact that
I was able to pursue this in some ways in
spite of that tenderness, because I think we need people
(06:16):
in positions like ours who are empathic and empathetic and
compassionate people.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
And you're originally from California.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Yes, northern California, a little tiny town called Eureka, but yeah,
it's very rural and big, beautiful redwood for old growth
redwood forests, and it's right on the ocean. It's an
absolutely extraordinarily beautiful part of the state. And I loved
to bring up in California, and my upbringing was wonderful,
lots of time outside, lots of music. I was the
(06:49):
youngest of three, so I was outside talking to myself
a lot, with a big imagination.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Did you now, your parents got divorced when you were
quite young.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Or yeah, like twelve, twelve years old, divorced and remarried.
Tough time. But I will say they are like best
friends now both, so it's very It is so normal
for my mom and dad and their spouses to be
having dinner together. They do it all the time.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
That's incredibly healthy. And yes, because that must have been
a difficult time as a twelve year old because your
siblings were already out of the house by then or
it just left, so you are sort of like an
only child going through divorce.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yes, when I've talked about it in therapy many times
over the years, because it sort of feels like that
thing if you come from a broken home, which seems
melo dramatic to say it that way, but which so
many people do you feel like, I don't know, I'm
forty three now I should be over the fact that
my parents got divorced. But it really does make an
impression upon you. It's your whole worldview, and when there's
(07:56):
a fissure there, it's hard to heal that. I just
didn't see it coming at all. There was no it
was not an angry household at all. It was just
it was just sort of like time to go.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Who did you turn to with that age? Like who
are the people in your life that you could rely
on at that age to process it?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
I think it really was when I started really processing
through journaling and writing and songs and going inward. I
wasn't very verbal with my emotions, which I think is
something that I had to learn the vocabulary about the
way I was feeling. But I didn't come to that
(08:34):
till much later in my life, and I would have.
I think I would have really thrived in a deeper
way had I had those tools earlier.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Did you take piano, like piano lessons or singing lessons,
or have another creative life that you felt was a respite.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I did play a lot of piano. I took piano
lessons when I was really young, like nine, and I
didn't like them very much, and so I stopped. But
I never fell out of love with the piano. I
said wanted to play piano all the time. And I
would come home from school and play for hours and
write little songs, and I sang in choirs and did
community theater. I loved being on stage. Theater is really
(09:12):
the first place where I felt wholly myself. I kind
of got bullied in school, so school was always a
little tricky for me, and theater was such a safe space.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
But that's what art really should be, you know, And
if you can't connect with it, how are you going
to be able to provide that outlet for someone else?
And when you went to UCLA, did your world shift
in a more positive way sort of socially?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
It did, And I mean I loved it. I loved going,
I loved the independence of college. But it was really
a culture shock. I never I remember going to LA
for the first time. I accepted UCLA sight unseen. I
just I couldn't even believe I got into that school.
And I wasn't going to go because we didn't We
didn't have a lot of money and it was expensive.
(10:01):
And I had an English teacher at the time, Missus Salter,
who said, you can't get into UCLA and not go
to UCLA. You have to go, like this is just
you have to go. And I got little scholarship and
I got financial aid and I made it to school.
But I remember going to LA for the first time
and driving along the beaches and seeing lifeguards in red
(10:25):
bathing suits like they did on Baywatch, and I thought
my mind was just blown. It was so much the
beaches where I grew up are like you put on
your jeans and your sweatshirts and your boots and it's cold,
and I just didn't realize how small my world had been.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
How do you have the balls to produce it, to
self produce your own album? And were you playing gigs
the whole time?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah? I you know, I think of that time being
so sort of blindly courageous. We do things that to
me now sound insane, but at the time my sort
of naivete I just didn't know any better, so I
didn't know enough not to like just go for it.
And I was in this amazing a cappella group. I
(11:19):
sang with these but we were a bunch of acapella nerds,
had the best time. It was like the first time
I felt like I found my people. And when I
think about it now, I'm I realize it's so theater adjacent.
It's like people who just love to collaborate and make
something together and they love singing together. And it's so
funny because it's so kind of deeply uncool and it's
(11:42):
just the coolest.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
At the same time, I think it's the coolest thing
ever to me too, hearing like singing at an arch
at Princeton where were the under those arches. It was
my freshman week. It was the I thought I had
died and gone to heaven just listening, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
It's just amazing. So I was a part of that group.
And then I met my friend Gabriel Man, who produced
that very first record with me. You know, at that times,
at that time in your life, you're sort of following
the breadcrumbs. You meet a producer, then you try working
with them, and then you meet someone through them, and
you know, someone whose uncle runs a club, and you like,
(12:22):
can I play at your club? And somebody sees you there.
You know, just it was very much one foot in
front of the other.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Did you have a manager or an ager and anything
like that or not that early on?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I played. I played hundreds of shows before I had
any kind of profession.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
All your own material, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I mean I started my very first gig. I played
I Will Survive with the drum machine on my keyboard,
and I don't even think I could really even play
the chords properly. I think I just was banking on
the charm of that. But you certainly have you learn,
you learn the way. Yeah, but yeah, I think you know.
(13:01):
I pursued music not really as a choice, but it
just always felt like my calling.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Did it help like with your confidence in self esteem?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
It was the safest space for me. I mean, it
was the it was my refuge, it was the place
I went to feel the most connected spiritually. It's church,
it's God, it's.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Is it approval as well?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
I'm sure there's there's some of that.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I mean self approval, not no, but I from the people.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
But I actually think it's both. It's like when you're
doing something that actually feels like in your soul, you
can feel that sense of alignment where it's like it's
not in question should I be doing this or not.
It's just like I didn't need to ask someone else
that I felt so myself playing music. But it is
also the validation of you know, people on the outside
(13:56):
acknowledging why you have a real gift, or I heard
you once, I wanted to come back and see you again.
And those are another set of breadcrumbs you follow.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
And how does self doubt not creep back in.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Oh honey, I got it. It's in my back pocket today.
It's always with I mean, I don't know, I'll mind
for you. I don't. I have stopped trying to omit
that sense from myself. I just it's not going to
go anywhere. I just have to like make peace with it.
I'm always going to doubt. When I did into the
(14:32):
Woods most recently, I'm just like, can I do this?
I put full meltdown just being like, I can't sing this,
I can't do this, I can't be on. I don't
know what I'm doing and got thrown in the deep end.
Everybody else knows what they're doing. That just comes in
the suitcase of being a human, I think, And you
have to just do it anyway. You have to be
feel all that fear, feel all that insecurity, and the
(14:54):
only mistake is if you let it keep you from
doing the thing you really want to be doing. And
I think.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I'm interested in how you got your start at Epic Records.
How did that happen? They saw you were approached to.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, I had started working with my manager. He has
since passed away. His name is Jordan Feldstein, but he
also represented Maroon five at the time, and I went
to college with a couple of the band members from
Run five, so they've been my friends since college. And
they took me on tour and Jordan started representing me,
and over the next let's say year or so, I
(15:35):
played a lot of shows in LA and he set
up showcases for me with major record labels, and everybody passed.
Nobody wanted to work with me. I don't think anyone
knew what to do with me. And then there was
a guy named Daniel Davis who worked at Epic Records
at the time, who brought out my A and R.
Guy who came and saw me at a show that
(15:57):
I didn't know anybody had come to see. So I
feel like he got to see myself in my at
my most expanded and my most natural. And so then yeah,
signed with Epic Records. So I'm still signed with Epic Records.
They've been an amazing partner. We've had a huge, long history.
It's like one of the crazy, rare, super positive stories
(16:18):
of a major label just being kind of an awesome partner.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And you mentioned early on and some of the articles
I read that they did at one point try to
sort of box you in How did you respond to
that and how did you get them to come along
with you on the what you wanted to do?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I think it was a combination of you know, the
song Love Song was written sort of as a pep
talk to myself because I could feel myself trying to
give them what I thought they wanted. What I knew
the record label was waiting for was a song that
(17:00):
they could go to radio with. And I felt like,
I have all these songs, Let me go into the studio,
let me make my record, And I wasn't really getting
the green light.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Does that mean more pop song?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Is that that pop song something that they could I'm
trying to remember the kinds of things that were on
the radio at that time. But I could just feel
that there was not enough excitement for like the material.
And I went to my music studio, which was a
storage unit that I shared with my friends in Raining
Jane and other band. So we had one of those
(17:30):
tincam like startine cam roll down garage doors with all
of our stuff stored in there. And I was there
and I wrote love song, and I wrote it kind
of just to myself. I was like, I said a
prayer I'm like, dear God, just let me remember me
in all of this. There was just so much noise
(17:51):
and so much feedback and so many opinions and love
song sort of poured out of me, and I was
convinced they would hate it, and they loved it, and
then to everyone's surprise, including myself, it was like a
big hit.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I mean, every single aspect of it just sounds like
it was meant to be. And thank God that they
for whatever reason that they liked it. Do you know
what I mean?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
It, yes, totally in a.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Way does not matter. But you know, thank God, because
you don't hear stories like that, and you know, and
you talk about how sort of obliterating the process can be.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
How much rejection, Oh God, it's terrible.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And now what you're doing, which I find really fascinating,
is you have a new show which is an audio
only singing competition chets, and it's called Breakthrough. Yes, can
you talk a little bit more about that? Because I
wish that there was a show like that that you
could have gone on.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
A thousand percent. I mean, I wish there was a
show like that I could have listened to. This audible
came with this idea, myself and Kelly Rowland as mentors.
We even sort of shy away a little bit from
the word judge, because it really is like a mentorship
program for these handful of artists who are singer songwriters,
(19:19):
and the entire podcast, as podcasts are generally, is done
with no visuals. So I met these contestants last night
when we recorded our final episode, so I finally saw
their faces after spending weeks and weeks and hours and
hours on the phone with them and talking through their
(19:40):
material and discussing their work and giving feedback. And I
love this format because it feels very nostalgic. It's the
way I used to listen to music with my headphones on.
Reading the lyrics, I wasn't watching a screen, I wasn't
taking anything in. It was just about what is the
(20:03):
story I'm being told? And is emotion being conveyed through
the vocal performance, through the actual craft of the song.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Is there a moment that took your breath away?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yes, there's a few moments. Actually, one of our artists,
he's a Southern guy, works mostly in country music, and
he really kind of hit rock bottom going through this
process with us, and he talked about starting therapy and
starting to really do the work that he needed to do.
(20:35):
And I found that to be so moving because it's
unusual for a guy in his position to sort of
admit that vulnerability and then to pour it into his work.
So I was so moved by that was very emotional. Actually,
I mean, we're listening to these people who have in
some cases really given up on the dream that this
(20:56):
is even possible for them, and then finding another moment
where they feel like it's within their reach. It's really extraordinary,
and you really come to love them. They're really lovable people.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I so appreciate your vulnerability, not just in music, but
in so many of the things that you do. You've
spoken about being bullied and feeling not good enough, feeling
insecure about your body. Yeah, all of these things that
I think are so much more common than people are
willing to admit, and I'm interested in how you've managed
(21:36):
those feelings. Have you come to love yourself more and
judge yourself less?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yes, I have gotten closer to self acceptance. I usually
just feel, you know, I get into these very tight
spaces within my own mind, and the answer is never
to be tougher on yourself or more just a plan
or harder consequences. It's always compassion and tenderness. It's really
(22:07):
the thing that moves the needle. Can you just beat
a little bit more your own friend? Of course we fail,
and of course we come up short, but no need
to pour salt in the wound. Let's just say.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
It's funny how I'm so quick to do that for
other people.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Too, But always with ourselves. It's so hard, right.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Never with myself, I know. But music is such a deeply,
deeply personal it's so personal to you, and it really
is a safe place for you to speak your truth.
And I'm curious if there's something that you perhaps haven't
(22:48):
yet said through your music that you're hoping to.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, I think in the sense that you're always making
new discoveries about yourself and always getting to know yourself
a little bit better. There's certainly things that I feel
at forty three that I wasn't quite awake to in
(23:13):
my thirties or in my twenties.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Like what like an example of one of those things.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
The Trump presidency was really, uh, just a game changer.
And in some ways it sounds insane to say, but
I'm almost grateful for it because I just realized how
unconscious I was about so many things. So I'm grateful
to be awake in a way that I wasn't. But
there's a tremendous amount of grief that comes with the
(23:43):
realization of what feels like it's been unearthed in this
new way. I know these things have always been here,
but you know, the pandemic. Was really disappointed with how
we showed up as a human race, really bummed, and
I felt like we missed an opportunity to grow towards
each other. It was like this brief moment when it
(24:05):
first happened, like the streets were empty, and I felt
like the empty streets were evidence of love, were taking
care of each other, and then you know, shit hits
the fan.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Do you think we can get back there?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I think you have to believe we can. And I
think always it's like you solve the macro with the micro.
We might not be able to save this entire world
with one email or one song, but every action causes
a ripple, even if it's to my dog, to the
(24:39):
male person, to the you know, it's how we engage
with the world. In your little whatever, your little bubble,
is I think that really matters.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I think it does really matter. I always love to
ask my my friends that come on, because now I'm
going to tell everybody. But we talk about now what moments,
and I'm just curious if there have been any now
what moments that resonate with you that you haven't shared
or cared to share.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Oh my god, so many many. I moved in with
my fiance Joe, congratulations and thank you. And we were
living together before, but I left Manhattan, so now we're
in Brooklyn. And let me tell you, I have not
dealt with this very gracefully. I'm not good at moving.
I hate it. I feel totally disoriented.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I hate every boxes behind.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, we're not even a little bit unpacked. I don't
know where my underwear is. It's like a whole nightmare.
But I had this conversation with myself this morning. It's
a little bit like I am uncomfortable right now. I'm
really uncomfortable. It's a really busy time and it's all
champagne problems, but it's like it's a really busy time
(25:57):
and I'm really uncomfortable in this very fundamental way, and
I just have to surrender.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I mean, one of the most traumatic things. Isn't it
one of them?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Is I think?
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I mean, isn't that the most like a life stressor
Growing up my mom never moved into any house that
we lived in. She never fully moved in, but she
kept buying houses and we bought houses everywhere with this
idea that potentially we were gonna have a fire and
have a meal there, and and so for me, if
(26:32):
things are not unpacked by panic and it's such a
source of stress, that makes so much sense.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I say this to my sister all the time, is that,
like our life, your life is happening right now. It's
not out there in the future like we're not. We're
not like trying to get to our lives somewhere in
the future. It's like, it's this, it's this room right now,
it's these boxes. So like, do your best with what's
(27:00):
right around you. It'll be present to what's really here.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
And that's you know, it's easier said than done, But
when you do revel in it, it's amazing how long
those periods of time do feel. You know, they do
feel expansive. You've mentioned that you've learned a lot about
yourself just in sort of recent years. Is there a
takeaway from the last decade.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I think the most I have learned and the best
I have ever felt was doing the things that scared
me the most, Like being comfortable is just not that interesting,
you know when I think about examples in the theater
or like I just was on We've just finished filming
(27:43):
our third season now of a TV show called Girls
five EV. But I'd never done television before, and I
was working with really seasoned, incredible actresses, and it was
a huge responsibility and I didn't want to fail. I
didn't want to be bad at it. But it takes time.
I'm you know, I can I can see my growth
from season one to season two to season three. It's
(28:04):
like we have to be willing to still learn. Like
you were saying, there's so much to learn about everything.
You don't have to be perfect at everything to engage
with it. It's nice. It shouldn't be enough to keep
you away from it if it's something you really want
to do.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Did saying yes to getting engaged terrify you? Or did
you was it exciting?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Well, it took us a long time to get there.
I actually it didn't terrify me, which was it did
terrifiz if it's a long It terrified me for a
long time, and then I started to realize I had
this image of what it meant to be married. You know,
I come from a divorced household. I come from obviously
people were it wasn't they weren't fully themselves, and I
(28:52):
didn't want to repeat those mistakes. I didn't want to
feel diminished. I didn't want to feel like I had
to give up independence. I'm incredible autonomous. I love being
alone in the world. So building a family together we
have them looking at my little dog right here at
my feet, and like, building this little world together in
(29:12):
some ways felt like I was giving something up, and yes,
you are, but also you gain an incredible amount.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
That was the soulful Sarah Burrells. Be sure to check
out her new series Breakthrough, which is available now on Audible.
That's it for us today, Talk to you next week.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Now.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
What with Brooke Shields is a production of iHeartRadio. Our
lead producer and wonderful showrunner is Julia Weaver. Additional research
and editing by Darby Masters and Abu Zafar. Our executive
producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed by Vahid Fraser.
What do you do when life doesn't go according to
plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one,
or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this
is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told
by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down
with a guest to talk about the times they were
knocked off course and what they did to move forward.
(00:27):
Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all
are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and
every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice
answers one question, now what.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I've played hundreds of shows before I had any kind
of profession, all your own materials. Yeah, I mean I
started my very first gig. I played I Will Survive
with a drum machine on my keyboard, and I don't
even think I could really even play the chords properly.
I think I just just banking on the charm of that.
(01:10):
But you certainly have you learn you learn the way? Yeah,
but yeah, I think you know. I pursued music not
really as a choice, but it just always felt like
my calling.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
My guest today has the voice of an angel, Sarah
Brellis is a singer, songwriter, actress, and author. She's dazzled
audiences on Broadway and shows like Waitress and Into the Woods.
She stars in Peacock's hilarious Girls, five Eva and In
Case That's Not Enough. She's also sold millions of albums
and won multiple Grammys. I love learning more about her
(01:50):
origin story and think it's badass how hard she has
fought to keep her voice and career authentic to who
she is. I truly don't know another or more quite
like her. So here is Sarah Burrells. Sarah Burrellis. Let's
(02:10):
just jump right in, and I want to say thank
you so much for coming on the show. I was
just so honored when I heard that you were open
to it and wanted to come on. So just thank you.
I've been a fan for an incredibly long time and
I appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Thank you right back, Atcha, I adore you. I'm so
happy to be talking and sorry for I'm having terrible allergies,
so I sound like I have a cold, but Galin.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
It's the absolute worst. We were just talking about that. Now.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
It's funny because sometimes I almost wish that I didn't
do any research just because I like to just have
like a girlfriend conversation. But one of the things that
is so striking to me is the versatility of your talent,
versatility of your career, the longevity of it, and how
(03:06):
how you're still able to maintain this. It's almost like
an anonymity. And I mean that in the best possible
I mean it is a huge compliment.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yes, no, it's I can actually really live a very
normal life. I really I would not wish fame, like
real fame, like the kind of fame you have on
my worst enemy. And I hope that doesn't count terrible,
but it does. The same is the worst byproduct of
getting to be an extraordinary artist, Like I think it's
(03:40):
the it's so toxic and it's so distorting, and I
think I'm I'm actually just literally a little too boring.
I think the press is not that like I'm just
not doing anything that's that interesting.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So yeah, oh god, I don't agree, but I will
say that, especially now, I mean social media, it's like
that just was one of the worst things that could
have ever happened to me. Yeah, just because it was
there was no escape whatsoever. And even in say in
thinking that I was going to say this to you.
(04:15):
I thought, God, it's we live in such a different time.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Now if you ask younger people, you know, what do
you want? They say, I want to be famous.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
You know.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
People don't say I want to do this, or I
have this vocation or practice that a part of my
creative my creativity or and it's such a different cultural shift.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I really feel like my fancy will tell you, like,
I don't have a poker face, like I don't and
this is a blessing and a curse, but I really
don't have another speed like It's just it's what you
see is what you get. The sort of authentic barebones
route was sort of the only road for me to walk,
(04:57):
I think, and survive.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
What were you like as a little girl?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
I was, I think, very awkward and precocious. And I've
always been someone who is like very honest, not always
have the most tact like honesty first, even if it's
I had to learn tact much later in my life.
(05:23):
But always very tenderhearted, really sensitive, always be very sensitive,
so get my feelings very easily. And I really love
people and I love I always refer to it as
emotional architecture. It's like the way we the way our
Psyche's workers I find to just be endlessly fascinating.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Those are qualities, though, that don't make it very easy
to survive in this industry. You know, I think it's
painful to feel so much.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I totally agree, But I do think, at least for me,
especially in this decade of my life, I have come
to appreciate that tenderness so much, and the fact that
I was able to pursue this in some ways in
spite of that tenderness, because I think we need people
(06:16):
in positions like ours who are empathic and empathetic and
compassionate people.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
And you're originally from California.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Yes, northern California, a little tiny town called Eureka, but yeah,
it's very rural and big, beautiful redwood for old growth
redwood forests, and it's right on the ocean. It's an
absolutely extraordinarily beautiful part of the state. And I loved
to bring up in California, and my upbringing was wonderful,
lots of time outside, lots of music. I was the
(06:49):
youngest of three, so I was outside talking to myself
a lot, with a big imagination.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Did you now, your parents got divorced when you were
quite young.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Or yeah, like twelve, twelve years old, divorced and remarried.
Tough time. But I will say they are like best
friends now both, so it's very It is so normal
for my mom and dad and their spouses to be
having dinner together. They do it all the time.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
That's incredibly healthy. And yes, because that must have been
a difficult time as a twelve year old because your
siblings were already out of the house by then or
it just left, so you are sort of like an
only child going through divorce.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yes, when I've talked about it in therapy many times
over the years, because it sort of feels like that
thing if you come from a broken home, which seems
melo dramatic to say it that way, but which so
many people do you feel like, I don't know, I'm
forty three now I should be over the fact that
my parents got divorced. But it really does make an
impression upon you. It's your whole worldview, and when there's
(07:56):
a fissure there, it's hard to heal that. I just
didn't see it coming at all. There was no it
was not an angry household at all. It was just
it was just sort of like time to go.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Who did you turn to with that age? Like who
are the people in your life that you could rely
on at that age to process it?
Speaker 2 (08:13):
I think it really was when I started really processing
through journaling and writing and songs and going inward. I
wasn't very verbal with my emotions, which I think is
something that I had to learn the vocabulary about the
way I was feeling. But I didn't come to that
(08:34):
till much later in my life, and I would have.
I think I would have really thrived in a deeper
way had I had those tools earlier.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Did you take piano, like piano lessons or singing lessons,
or have another creative life that you felt was a respite.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I did play a lot of piano. I took piano
lessons when I was really young, like nine, and I
didn't like them very much, and so I stopped. But
I never fell out of love with the piano. I
said wanted to play piano all the time. And I
would come home from school and play for hours and
write little songs, and I sang in choirs and did
community theater. I loved being on stage. Theater is really
(09:12):
the first place where I felt wholly myself. I kind
of got bullied in school, so school was always a
little tricky for me, and theater was such a safe space.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
But that's what art really should be, you know, And
if you can't connect with it, how are you going
to be able to provide that outlet for someone else?
And when you went to UCLA, did your world shift
in a more positive way sort of socially?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
It did, And I mean I loved it. I loved going,
I loved the independence of college. But it was really
a culture shock. I never I remember going to LA
for the first time. I accepted UCLA sight unseen. I
just I couldn't even believe I got into that school.
And I wasn't going to go because we didn't We
didn't have a lot of money and it was expensive.
(10:01):
And I had an English teacher at the time, Missus Salter,
who said, you can't get into UCLA and not go
to UCLA. You have to go, like this is just
you have to go. And I got little scholarship and
I got financial aid and I made it to school.
But I remember going to LA for the first time
and driving along the beaches and seeing lifeguards in red
(10:25):
bathing suits like they did on Baywatch, and I thought
my mind was just blown. It was so much the
beaches where I grew up are like you put on
your jeans and your sweatshirts and your boots and it's cold,
and I just didn't realize how small my world had been.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
How do you have the balls to produce it, to
self produce your own album? And were you playing gigs
the whole time?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah? I you know, I think of that time being
so sort of blindly courageous. We do things that to
me now sound insane, but at the time my sort
of naivete I just didn't know any better, so I
didn't know enough not to like just go for it.
And I was in this amazing a cappella group. I
(11:19):
sang with these but we were a bunch of acapella nerds,
had the best time. It was like the first time
I felt like I found my people. And when I
think about it now, I'm I realize it's so theater adjacent.
It's like people who just love to collaborate and make
something together and they love singing together. And it's so
funny because it's so kind of deeply uncool and it's
(11:42):
just the coolest.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
At the same time, I think it's the coolest thing
ever to me too, hearing like singing at an arch
at Princeton where were the under those arches. It was
my freshman week. It was the I thought I had
died and gone to heaven just listening, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
It's just amazing. So I was a part of that group.
And then I met my friend Gabriel Man, who produced
that very first record with me. You know, at that times,
at that time in your life, you're sort of following
the breadcrumbs. You meet a producer, then you try working
with them, and then you meet someone through them, and
you know, someone whose uncle runs a club, and you like,
(12:22):
can I play at your club? And somebody sees you there.
You know, just it was very much one foot in
front of the other.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Did you have a manager or an ager and anything
like that or not that early on?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I played. I played hundreds of shows before I had
any kind of profession.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
All your own material, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I mean I started my very first gig. I played
I Will Survive with the drum machine on my keyboard,
and I don't even think I could really even play
the chords properly. I think I just was banking on
the charm of that. But you certainly have you learn,
you learn the way. Yeah, but yeah, I think you know.
(13:01):
I pursued music not really as a choice, but it
just always felt like my calling.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Did it help like with your confidence in self esteem?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
It was the safest space for me. I mean, it
was the it was my refuge, it was the place
I went to feel the most connected spiritually. It's church,
it's God, it's.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Is it approval as well?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
I'm sure there's there's some of that.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I mean self approval, not no, but I from the people.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
But I actually think it's both. It's like when you're
doing something that actually feels like in your soul, you
can feel that sense of alignment where it's like it's
not in question should I be doing this or not.
It's just like I didn't need to ask someone else
that I felt so myself playing music. But it is
also the validation of you know, people on the outside
(13:56):
acknowledging why you have a real gift, or I heard
you once, I wanted to come back and see you again.
And those are another set of breadcrumbs you follow.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
And how does self doubt not creep back in.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Oh honey, I got it. It's in my back pocket today.
It's always with I mean, I don't know, I'll mind
for you. I don't. I have stopped trying to omit
that sense from myself. I just it's not going to
go anywhere. I just have to like make peace with it.
I'm always going to doubt. When I did into the
(14:32):
Woods most recently, I'm just like, can I do this?
I put full meltdown just being like, I can't sing this,
I can't do this, I can't be on. I don't
know what I'm doing and got thrown in the deep end.
Everybody else knows what they're doing. That just comes in
the suitcase of being a human, I think, And you
have to just do it anyway. You have to be
feel all that fear, feel all that insecurity, and the
(14:54):
only mistake is if you let it keep you from
doing the thing you really want to be doing. And
I think.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
I'm interested in how you got your start at Epic Records.
How did that happen? They saw you were approached to.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, I had started working with my manager. He has
since passed away. His name is Jordan Feldstein, but he
also represented Maroon five at the time, and I went
to college with a couple of the band members from
Run five, so they've been my friends since college. And
they took me on tour and Jordan started representing me,
and over the next let's say year or so, I
(15:35):
played a lot of shows in LA and he set
up showcases for me with major record labels, and everybody passed.
Nobody wanted to work with me. I don't think anyone
knew what to do with me. And then there was
a guy named Daniel Davis who worked at Epic Records
at the time, who brought out my A and R.
Guy who came and saw me at a show that
(15:57):
I didn't know anybody had come to see. So I
feel like he got to see myself in my at
my most expanded and my most natural. And so then yeah,
signed with Epic Records. So I'm still signed with Epic Records.
They've been an amazing partner. We've had a huge, long history.
It's like one of the crazy, rare, super positive stories
(16:18):
of a major label just being kind of an awesome partner.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And you mentioned early on and some of the articles
I read that they did at one point try to
sort of box you in How did you respond to
that and how did you get them to come along
with you on the what you wanted to do?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I think it was a combination of you know, the
song Love Song was written sort of as a pep
talk to myself because I could feel myself trying to
give them what I thought they wanted. What I knew
the record label was waiting for was a song that
(17:00):
they could go to radio with. And I felt like,
I have all these songs, Let me go into the studio,
let me make my record, And I wasn't really getting
the green light.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Does that mean more pop song?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Is that that pop song something that they could I'm
trying to remember the kinds of things that were on
the radio at that time. But I could just feel
that there was not enough excitement for like the material.
And I went to my music studio, which was a
storage unit that I shared with my friends in Raining
Jane and other band. So we had one of those
(17:30):
tincam like startine cam roll down garage doors with all
of our stuff stored in there. And I was there
and I wrote love song, and I wrote it kind
of just to myself. I was like, I said a
prayer I'm like, dear God, just let me remember me
in all of this. There was just so much noise
(17:51):
and so much feedback and so many opinions and love
song sort of poured out of me, and I was
convinced they would hate it, and they loved it, and
then to everyone's surprise, including myself, it was like a
big hit.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
I mean, every single aspect of it just sounds like
it was meant to be. And thank God that they
for whatever reason that they liked it. Do you know
what I mean?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
It, yes, totally in a.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Way does not matter. But you know, thank God, because
you don't hear stories like that, and you know, and
you talk about how sort of obliterating the process can be.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
How much rejection, Oh God, it's terrible.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And now what you're doing, which I find really fascinating,
is you have a new show which is an audio
only singing competition chets, and it's called Breakthrough. Yes, can
you talk a little bit more about that? Because I
wish that there was a show like that that you
could have gone on.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
A thousand percent. I mean, I wish there was a
show like that I could have listened to. This audible
came with this idea, myself and Kelly Rowland as mentors.
We even sort of shy away a little bit from
the word judge, because it really is like a mentorship
program for these handful of artists who are singer songwriters,
(19:19):
and the entire podcast, as podcasts are generally, is done
with no visuals. So I met these contestants last night
when we recorded our final episode, so I finally saw
their faces after spending weeks and weeks and hours and
hours on the phone with them and talking through their
(19:40):
material and discussing their work and giving feedback. And I
love this format because it feels very nostalgic. It's the
way I used to listen to music with my headphones on.
Reading the lyrics, I wasn't watching a screen, I wasn't
taking anything in. It was just about what is the
(20:03):
story I'm being told? And is emotion being conveyed through
the vocal performance, through the actual craft of the song.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Is there a moment that took your breath away?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yes, there's a few moments. Actually, one of our artists,
he's a Southern guy, works mostly in country music, and
he really kind of hit rock bottom going through this
process with us, and he talked about starting therapy and
starting to really do the work that he needed to do.
(20:35):
And I found that to be so moving because it's
unusual for a guy in his position to sort of
admit that vulnerability and then to pour it into his work.
So I was so moved by that was very emotional. Actually,
I mean, we're listening to these people who have in
some cases really given up on the dream that this
(20:56):
is even possible for them, and then finding another moment
where they feel like it's within their reach. It's really extraordinary,
and you really come to love them. They're really lovable people.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I so appreciate your vulnerability, not just in music, but
in so many of the things that you do. You've
spoken about being bullied and feeling not good enough, feeling
insecure about your body. Yeah, all of these things that
I think are so much more common than people are
willing to admit, and I'm interested in how you've managed
(21:36):
those feelings. Have you come to love yourself more and
judge yourself less?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yes, I have gotten closer to self acceptance. I usually
just feel, you know, I get into these very tight
spaces within my own mind, and the answer is never
to be tougher on yourself or more just a plan
or harder consequences. It's always compassion and tenderness. It's really
(22:07):
the thing that moves the needle. Can you just beat
a little bit more your own friend? Of course we fail,
and of course we come up short, but no need
to pour salt in the wound. Let's just say.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
It's funny how I'm so quick to do that for
other people.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Too, But always with ourselves. It's so hard, right.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Never with myself, I know. But music is such a deeply,
deeply personal it's so personal to you, and it really
is a safe place for you to speak your truth.
And I'm curious if there's something that you perhaps haven't
(22:48):
yet said through your music that you're hoping to.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yeah, I think in the sense that you're always making
new discoveries about yourself and always getting to know yourself
a little bit better. There's certainly things that I feel
at forty three that I wasn't quite awake to in
(23:13):
my thirties or in my twenties.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Like what like an example of one of those things.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
The Trump presidency was really, uh, just a game changer.
And in some ways it sounds insane to say, but
I'm almost grateful for it because I just realized how
unconscious I was about so many things. So I'm grateful
to be awake in a way that I wasn't. But
there's a tremendous amount of grief that comes with the
(23:43):
realization of what feels like it's been unearthed in this
new way. I know these things have always been here,
but you know, the pandemic. Was really disappointed with how
we showed up as a human race, really bummed, and
I felt like we missed an opportunity to grow towards
each other. It was like this brief moment when it
(24:05):
first happened, like the streets were empty, and I felt
like the empty streets were evidence of love, were taking
care of each other, and then you know, shit hits
the fan.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Do you think we can get back there?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I think you have to believe we can. And I
think always it's like you solve the macro with the micro.
We might not be able to save this entire world
with one email or one song, but every action causes
a ripple, even if it's to my dog, to the
(24:39):
male person, to the you know, it's how we engage
with the world. In your little whatever, your little bubble,
is I think that really matters.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I think it does really matter. I always love to
ask my my friends that come on, because now I'm
going to tell everybody. But we talk about now what moments,
and I'm just curious if there have been any now
what moments that resonate with you that you haven't shared
or cared to share.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Oh my god, so many many. I moved in with
my fiance Joe, congratulations and thank you. And we were
living together before, but I left Manhattan, so now we're
in Brooklyn. And let me tell you, I have not
dealt with this very gracefully. I'm not good at moving.
I hate it. I feel totally disoriented.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I hate every boxes behind.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, we're not even a little bit unpacked. I don't
know where my underwear is. It's like a whole nightmare.
But I had this conversation with myself this morning. It's
a little bit like I am uncomfortable right now. I'm
really uncomfortable. It's a really busy time and it's all
champagne problems, but it's like it's a really busy time
(25:57):
and I'm really uncomfortable in this very fundamental way, and
I just have to surrender.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I mean, one of the most traumatic things. Isn't it
one of them?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Is I think?
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I mean, isn't that the most like a life stressor
Growing up my mom never moved into any house that
we lived in. She never fully moved in, but she
kept buying houses and we bought houses everywhere with this
idea that potentially we were gonna have a fire and
have a meal there, and and so for me, if
(26:32):
things are not unpacked by panic and it's such a
source of stress, that makes so much sense.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I say this to my sister all the time, is that,
like our life, your life is happening right now. It's
not out there in the future like we're not. We're
not like trying to get to our lives somewhere in
the future. It's like, it's this, it's this room right now,
it's these boxes. So like, do your best with what's
(27:00):
right around you. It'll be present to what's really here.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
And that's you know, it's easier said than done, But
when you do revel in it, it's amazing how long
those periods of time do feel. You know, they do
feel expansive. You've mentioned that you've learned a lot about
yourself just in sort of recent years. Is there a
takeaway from the last decade.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I think the most I have learned and the best
I have ever felt was doing the things that scared
me the most, Like being comfortable is just not that interesting,
you know when I think about examples in the theater
or like I just was on We've just finished filming
(27:43):
our third season now of a TV show called Girls
five EV. But I'd never done television before, and I
was working with really seasoned, incredible actresses, and it was
a huge responsibility and I didn't want to fail. I
didn't want to be bad at it. But it takes time.
I'm you know, I can I can see my growth
from season one to season two to season three. It's
(28:04):
like we have to be willing to still learn. Like
you were saying, there's so much to learn about everything.
You don't have to be perfect at everything to engage
with it. It's nice. It shouldn't be enough to keep
you away from it if it's something you really want
to do.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Did saying yes to getting engaged terrify you? Or did
you was it exciting?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Well, it took us a long time to get there.
I actually it didn't terrify me, which was it did
terrifiz if it's a long It terrified me for a
long time, and then I started to realize I had
this image of what it meant to be married. You know,
I come from a divorced household. I come from obviously
people were it wasn't they weren't fully themselves, and I
(28:52):
didn't want to repeat those mistakes. I didn't want to
feel diminished. I didn't want to feel like I had
to give up independence. I'm incredible autonomous. I love being
alone in the world. So building a family together we
have them looking at my little dog right here at
my feet, and like, building this little world together in
(29:12):
some ways felt like I was giving something up, and yes,
you are, but also you gain an incredible amount.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
That was the soulful Sarah Burrells. Be sure to check
out her new series Breakthrough, which is available now on Audible.
That's it for us today, Talk to you next week.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Now.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
What with Brooke Shields is a production of iHeartRadio. Our
lead producer and wonderful showrunner is Julia Weaver. Additional research
and editing by Darby Masters and Abu Zafar. Our executive
producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed by Vahid Fraser.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!