September 24, 2025 • 27 mins
Knowa de Baraso invites Jemele Hill, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, to discuss her latest projects and insights. Hill shares details about her upcoming children's book focused on teaching kids to be unapologetic and highlights the stories of prominent women who inspire her. The conversation touches on Hill's sports advocacy, particularly her views on Angel Reese's suspension and the WNBA's pay disparity. Hill also provides her perspective on the intersection of sports and politics, her thoughts on the Brittany Griner case, and addresses misconceptions about her public persona. The episode closes with a fun word association game where Hill shares her quick takes on prominent figures.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now You Know and No de Brosso is a production
of iHeartMedia and partnership with Recent Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
All right, welcome back to Now You Know. I'm your host.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
No de Brasso in today's guest is someone whose voice
has shaped how we understand sports, culture and politics for
well over a decade.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Jamel Hill Alive. You remember in.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Twenty seventeen when she made headlines for calling out President
Trump and then later taking on the Dallas Cowboys and
their owner for threatening to bench players for protesting during
the anthems. That moment sparked national debate, even with the
White House weighing in.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Trump mentioned and all.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
We'll also get into Jamel's perspective on what it means
to show grace and professionalism in the face of backlash,
whether that's Angelies pushing for excellence and being criticized Taylor
Townsend holding her own at the US Open. Jamel shared
with US that the past two years have been some of.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
The hardest of her career.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Multiple projects stalled, stepbacks piled up. She's had to wrestle
with self doubt, even as she remains confident in her
talent and purpose.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Hey, No, what how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I am good. Thank you so much for inviting me
to be on with you.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
I've seen some of your other interviews and you are
already a really good interviewer.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I really appreciate that. Tell me about some of the
books in your background. All right, So I have Candas
Parker's book, Who is Somebody?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Athlete? I've admired for a long time.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
But and you know this as an interviewer, is that,
especially when you have people on your podcasts who write books,
you should read them just to give you more information
about who they are. So I read Candis's book because
she was a guest on my podcast. This book here,
John Conyers the third, he John Kiers was a very
beloved congressman in Michigan. He was actually, I believe the
(01:57):
first congressman to introduce reparations as a big Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
He's from Detroit, where I'm from.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
And so his son wrote a book about his relationship
with his father, what it was like growing up with
such a famous congressman.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
And he and I didn't event together. So I read
his book. And then we have If.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
You see these children's books, that's mostly because I'm writing
a children's book, or it's done it's coming out in
the top hopefully the first quarter of next year.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Tell me by your children's book. That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Yeah, So the children's book, the thesis of it is
teaching kids how to be unapologetic, which is essentially how
to stand up for themselves, how to navigate, how they
use their voice when things aren't right, and even not
necessarily how to have courage because that's kind of nebulous,
(02:49):
but just what it means to advocate and stick up
for yourself. And so, in addition to telling parts of
my story, I also told parts of a number of
of famous women who I felt like were very unapologetic,
from Coco Golf to is b Wells to Ruth Carter,
(03:10):
who the costume designer for the Black Panther movies, among
many other things she's done. I think she's the first
African American to win multiple Academy Awards, and so she
won them all for costume design. So just different women
and just what they've meant to me watching them from Afar,
and how it's inspired me to also be unapologetic. WHOA Okay, well,
(03:33):
I know a lot about your background and I have
to ask just on a sports perspective in my eyes,
you are advocacy and then sports, and I have to
ask you about this. How are you feeling about Andurice's
suspension on this morning?
Speaker 4 (03:49):
So I thought the suspension was really unbecoming of the organization.
You know, I've covered sports for almost three decades now,
and really highly competitive players they want to win. And
we saw this with Kobe Bryant. He was known to
criticize his organization. He even at one point asked for
(04:11):
a trade because he was so upset with the direction
of the franchise. So like, it's not particularly new, and
I think what we heard from her was frustration with
the organization and just her saying that for them to
be competitive, they need better players. And anybody who watched
this guy, this is kind of like saying water is
what they won ten games? Right, So but I didn't
(04:33):
think her expressing her frustration was detrimental. I thought it
was obvious. And the Chicago skuy it was interesting because
I think it was the athletic They take a poll
and they asked WNBA players different things like who's the
best coach, who's the best player, who's the best organization?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
And I believe it was the guy that got.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
The player vote for the worst organization in the WA.
So it's not like the thing she said is without merit,
And I didn't feel like she was attacking her teammates.
She said, we need better players, and I think it's
pretty obvious when you win those few games, you indeed
do need better players. So I thought it sent a
bad message to her is she's supposed to be one
(05:17):
of your franchise faces. And I thought it said a
lot about why maybe some of these criticisms of the
organization are justified.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Okay, And so tell me a little bit, like what
would you have done in her position? Would you have
stayed quiet and maybe just said let it play out,
or would you kind of want the injuries in the
Jamel Hill route.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
My guess is that she probably has had this conversation
within the organization, and if I were her and I
was feeling that frustration, and I think that that's something
that she maybe should have shared with the veteran on
the team, because the veteran probably could have helped her
navigate that situation a little bit better. But at the
same time, it's kind of hard to tell a angel
(06:00):
not to be herself because she's always been honest and
forthcoming about what she's experiencing. And so to tell a player,
you can't be that, or you shouldn't be frustrated with losing.
If you're the Sky, you should have taken that as
a great sign because it means that one of your
best players it matters to her, she cares, She's passionate
(06:23):
about it.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
She wants the team to do well.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
They're not that far removed from winning a championship, and
she wants them to structurally kind of take on that
role again to be one of the top teams in
the WNBA. So I think, and this, you know, this
will come with a little more experience and wisdom.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
I think there are times where you have to do
that just to light a fire under the organization. As
she matures in the WNBA, I think she'll figure out
the best way to fight certain battles for sure. So
if you were the Chicago Sky, how would you Because
this is interesting, I don't What do you have taken
from that?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Is what I'm going to ask.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
I think what I would have taken from it is
that we need to figure out a way to be
on the same page with our best player and with
somebody who is the kind of the face of our organization,
and what do we need to do to better support
her so that she doesn't feel like we're directionless. They're
more likely to get on the same page if there's
(07:23):
a spirit of collaboration. But sometimes the tough love stuff again,
it does work.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I mean, when when.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Kobe asked for a trade, specifically, it sort of got
out there that he wanted to trade be traded to
the Clippers because they were still right there in La.
I think that little bit of a fire under the Lakers.
So I think there are times where it is necessary
for the star player to call out their organization. So
I'm thinking that if I'm them, then I'm having a
(07:51):
series of conversations with her about what they can do
to show better support and more importantly, prove that they're
when they're headed in the right.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Right And this is this is obviously good criticism. You
care for the NBA, you, I mean the WNBA. You
want this to be a better organization. I don't know
if you care about Chicago Sky or not, but you
care about the sport as a whole. And so where
do you think this advice? You give advice on every
on every spectrum. You give advice in politics, you give
advice in sports. As of right now, at least, where
(08:23):
do you think your influence is most needed in politics
or in sports?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Well, I happen to be of the belief that both
of those things are intertwined, So there's no separation for me.
A lot of the things that you see happening in
sports are saying things that mirror or reflect what's happening
politically for us. There are are fights being waged on
multiple fronts.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Like we were just talking about the w NBA. Now
we know for.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Decades there has been a constant conversation and a constant
need to address the gender page disparity, and we see
a very big one between female athletes and male athletes.
The WNBA players During WNBA All Star Weekend, they wore
shirts t shirts that created a lot of conversation called
pay us what you owe us. They're in the middle
(09:10):
of a labor negotiation with the WNBA league owners, and
so I think that's a really good example of something
that is generally a issue within our wider society that
is also an issue in sports, is women fighting for
pay equity, fighting for fair treatment, fighting for opportunity in
(09:33):
many ways are related to a fight for dignity. So
you know, that's why I think sports is such a
perfect vehicle to get people to understand politics a little
bit better, you know, especially now in our country, we're
very politically divided. But the beauty of sports is that
it's one of the few things that actually brings us together.
It doesn't matter what race you are, gender, socioeconomic background.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
You all like the Lakers.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
You all like the Lakers, you all like Lebron, You
all like Lebron, and so because you have the commonality
of liking and enjoying the same thing, I think it
allows for an opportunity for people to listen to the
issues differently because they already have the commonality established.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
That sports allows.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, you spoke about WNBA pay. I'm very very curious
in your eyes, what should WNBA players get paid?
Speaker 2 (10:26):
If you have anything in mind.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Of course, well I will.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
I'll say this is that the players themselves, and I'm
certainly not of this belief either, they have never advocated
to be paid the same as NBA players. These are
different leagues, different histories, and clearly different revenue. You know,
the NBA has existed for like eight decades. You know,
they had quite a bit of head start over the NBA.
(10:51):
They have multiple billion dollar television deals, so they're able
to pay their players a lot more because their financial
structure is more sound and more robust. That being said,
this is a very explosive year for the WNBA the
last two years, and the ceiling is quite high. So
for the first time in WNBA league history, you have teams,
(11:14):
multiple teams that are valued at well over two hundred
and fifty three hundred million dollars, So that means that
there's more revenue coming in. And they just signed the
largest television deal that they've ever had. So when you
do that, you have to pay the players more. The
product only becomes more valuable. So I know that the
players are fighting for a fifty percent revenue share, meaning
(11:36):
they want fifty percent of all basketball related income that
comes into the league. They want that devoted towards salary.
And I don't know what the magic number is, but
I know that for the health of the players, for
this product to continue to grow and explode the way
it has, they can have a situation where these players
(11:58):
have to go overseas and play there in order to
supplement their income. You want the best talent in the
world to play in the WNBA, and they do already,
but you want to disincentivize them from playing in Russia
to do what Britney Grinder had to do. She was
over in Russia because Russia was paying her seven figures.
(12:20):
And if America still believes in being a model for
the world, then it doesn't look great optically when countries
who have a poor track record in human rights, like Russia,
when they are able to pay female athletes, your female
athletes that are Americans six seven times what they make
(12:42):
in America.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
That says a lot.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
And so I'm not sure what the magic number is,
but I know it can't be the current number, which
is nine percent of revenue. It has to be something
that players are able to strictly make a living playing
basketball in the WNBA.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, all right, we're not quite done yet. I will
be right back and in the meantime you can find
me on all social media is at Native rosso. As
soon as you said playing overseas, I thought about Brittany Grinder.
(13:21):
We spoke about politics and sports coming together. How did
you feel about President Biden partnering Britney Griner.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Well, I thought that him negotiating for her release was.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Sorry, I didn't mean to say, pardon, I'm sleepyizing the trade.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
Yeah, that's right, Yes, yeah, he negotiated. Him and Kamala Harrison,
an entire team of American officials negotiated for her release.
And when you read all the factors in the case,
it's like, no, she never should have been detained and
sentenced to ten years in a Russian prison. That was
not remotely one of those situations where the pun fits
(14:01):
the crime. And clearly the Russian government saw an opportunity
to use a basketball player of her caliber and of
her fame as a bargaining chip to be able to
get the I think his name is Victor balk be
able to get him released.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
And so when.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
You read about the journey, because she has a book
out which I've read, Brittany's Journey being detained for I
think almost two years something like that, I mean it
was horrific, and so I think her case, beyond her
being released, what it did was shed a light on
a lot of other Americans who are also being detained,
(14:44):
who were also able to as a result of her case,
garnering so much attention, they were also able to come home,
and so I thought it was among the slate of
accomplishments that Joe Biden was able to accomplish. I thought
this was a pretty significant one.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Right right, And this was a heavily, of course covered
topic in media, and these often can get fun. They
can say I headline can say that you said whatever
about this. And as yourself, what is a misconception perpetrated
by the media about you?
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Well, I think there's a few perceptions, and it's some
of which I think women who look like me always
have to deal with.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
This.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
One is that I'm angry, which I'm not too. Is
that I'm super serious, and anybody who knows me in
real life would know that that's entirely the exact opposite
is that I am a pretty laid back person. I
like to have fun, I like to laugh, and so
I think people think that by the nature of the
(15:49):
things I talk about, that represents the totality of who
I am.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
I think that's a big misperception about me.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And you know, I think sometimes people confuse ability with
you being you know, I don't want to use the
word cancel because that's such an overused word and our
in our society. But when I talk about serious issues
and want to bring attention to them, what I'm looking
for is acknowledgment and accountability, like not for people to
(16:19):
be burned.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
At the stake. It's like those two things matter. Resolution matters.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
And so I think people have it in their minds
that I'm just a walking protest billboard, and that's that's.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Not really who I am, right right?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And And what would you say, like you're you accidentally
say something in an interview that might give that off?
What do you think is the first thing that gives
people that impression?
Speaker 4 (16:45):
So what I would say, and this is a lesson
that I continue to have to sort of speak to
myself a firm within myself is I don't want to
explain myself to people whose intention is to misunderstand.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I can only be me.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
I put out there what I put out there, and
live with whatever consequences there are. And so you can't
really control how other people perceive you. You can only
be true to yourself and be authentic because I think
people generally respect that. So in whatever media space I'm in,
I'm trying to be authentic and true to myself and
(17:28):
that's it. And I can deal with whatever criticism or
praise that I receive because I feel pretty confident and
rooted in my own identity.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
So I want to get back to something more shiny.
Your children's book. This is one of your big projects
that I haven't heard much about. So go into debt
about go and a depth about it.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
So I know people are probably pretty surprised about the
idea of me writing a children's book. I wrote a
memoir that was about my life called Uphill that was
I would say, probably a little bit on the heavier side.
And as I just mentioned to you, I tend to
talk about heavier topics a good bit of the time
in my media career. And so I was approached maybe
(18:19):
a little less than two years ago about the idea
of writing a children's book that was built around this
idea of teaching kids how to be their authentic and
unapologetic sales. I think we, especially given what our climate is,
we want to always encourage young people, especially to encourage
them to use their voice, encourage them to be bold
(18:43):
and to be daring, and that can come in many
different forms, like we're.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Not asking them to do anything crazy.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
But I think history has provided us a litany of
examples of how sometimes even the smallest acts, or even
just being excellent at what you do, can provide inspiration
for others. So I talk a lot in this children's
book about what it was like for me growing up
in Detroit as a young girl who loved sports, and
(19:08):
at the time, young girls who loved sports wasn't really
a thing, you know, So I often was competing against
the boys and you know, in spaces that were more
male dominated, and it taught me a lot of great
life lessons.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
I mean, sports in general did. It's why I became
a sports writer. I was a tomboy growing up.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I loved playing sports, I loved watching sports, and so
sports gave me such important lessons and was such a
great foundation for me. I wanted to share what that
meant to be in that kind of environment at that time,
and the kind of confidence.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
That it gave me.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
And it was a big reason why I think people
recognized me as being unapologetic. It was something that I
derived from playing sports, and so this book is about
that journey, and it's also about highlighting a number of
women of color who have been able to do the
same things in their respective fields, from id B. Wills
(20:07):
to Ruth Carter to Amy Scherraul Cocoa Goth like I
have a mixture of to Justice Kantanji Brown Jackson. So
I have a number of women who I talk about
in the book from different fields, from politics to law,
to the arts to sports, so that regardless of whether
(20:29):
or not you are naturally interested in these subjects, this
is an opportunity for you to not only learn about them,
but see through how they operated in their lives and careers.
You know what it means to be bold, to be courageous,
and what that looks like, and what's the reward from
doing that?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Can people pre order? Where is this all at?
Speaker 4 (20:51):
The idea was it for it to come out the
first quarter of next year. So in the next couple months,
hopefully I'll have a pre order date for everybody.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
That's really I'll make sure I get mine, and I'll even.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Get you a sign copy because these are what I
appreciate that I really do. That book kind of made me,
kind of brought me to this question at ages even eight.
I was thinking thirteen through sixteen, but even seven through seventeen.
Do you think kids, especially black kids, should focus on
let's say school sports or entrepreneurship or something in that
(21:26):
kind of future.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
What do you think that? Where are you on that discussion?
Speaker 4 (21:29):
So I'll admit that my answer is rooted in a
little bit of privilege. And from this standpoint, I was
the outlier who knew from the time that I was
in ninth or tenth grade.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
I think you can relate to this, given what you do.
I knew then I wanted to.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Be a sports journalist. It's the only thing I've ever
tried to do. It's the only career I've ever pursued.
It was truly my passion. I love writing, I love reading,
I love learning, and I love journalism and all those
things to me all fit together. And obviously I love sports.
And because I knew at such an early age what
I wanted to do, then that's what drove me.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
That was my single minded pursuit.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
And I think what we should be telling young people
is to think passion first.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I guess it's the old guidance counselor.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Question, what would you still do passionately even if you
weren't getting paid for it? And listen when I was
in college, I was getting paid thirty dollars a story
to write about high school sports. And I love the
profession now just as much as I did when I
was getting thirty bucks a story. And so I think
(22:42):
that's how you discover what you're good at and if
you're really passionate about it, and if you're good at it,
you're going.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
To make money at it.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
It could be something that's traditional, like owning a business.
It could be something more like what I pursued. It
could be fashion, it could be a number of things.
But I have just found and in all walks of life,
the people that think passion first are the people that
wind up being successful. So I know entrepreneurship is, you know,
(23:11):
obviously a hot topic, and I get it.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
I was drug into entrepreneurship.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I did not want to do it, but you know,
it became necessary as I sort of plotted out this
part of my life.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
And it's not for everybody like that is not easy
to do. And so I think that we should encourage
our young people to do the things that they really
want to do, and not the things just to make money,
because if you go at it just to make money,
you will not be happy, not long term, right, all right,
hold up, we'll be right back after this quick break.
(23:53):
A lot of people think of it as a risk,
like from seven or six to seventeen, you're doing the practices,
you're doing everything it takes. Would you encourage that kind
of resk? What do you think the kind of safety
net is? What I think is that from those ages
that you talked about, you should be trying everything to
figure out what it is you really want to do.
(24:15):
Because sometimes what is detrimental is when you lock in
much too early, and you lock in because you think
it makes a lot of money, and then you've invested
all this time and you wind up staying in it
just because you've invested the time and not because you
like it. And so when you're in elementary or middle
school or high school, like if you want to.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Write for your high school paper, do it.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Just to see what it feels like, or try other
extracurricular activities that are available in your school just to.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
Understand, like, hey, do I like this or do I not?
And think about the things that bring you joy as
a part of that self discovery. So I think we
need to allow some room for self discovery. Your passion
could be doing hair, and if that's the case, figure
out ways to pursue that passion. If that is your passion,
if you're creatively inclined, if you love doing makeup and
(25:09):
want to be a makeup artist, like, follow those passions
and you can follow them early. So you know, I
just think that we probably don't encourage kids to experiment enough.
And I get it because college is very expensive, and
they've made it impossible to show up on college campuses
and not have any idea what you.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Want to do because you're spending so much money to
be there. But at least while you're.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
In a situation where maybe you go to public schools
so your school is free, or you're in an environment
where your parents can afford to put you in private school.
While you're in these spaces, explore everything absolutely. And I
appreciate the children's book announcement. That was unexpected. I'm excited
to hear about it. And now it's time for a
(25:58):
tad bit of fun. I want to say some names,
and I want for you to give me the first
word that comes to mind at that. Okay, this injuries unapologetic. Okay,
Kamala Harris fears Vladimir Putin.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Criminal okay, bg Brittany Grinder, Brittany Grinder, resilient, resilient, steven A. Smith,
hardworking Okay, Donald Trump, I'm trying to think of something.
(26:41):
Narcissist okay, Caitlin Clark trailblazer, trail blazer.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Okay. Dave cortnoy Man, you really.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Are challenging me here, You're trying stupidity. Well, I really
really really want to thank you for coming on now,
you know. And I'm so so excited have you and
(27:11):
I hope to see you in real life soon.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Yeah, same here, and good luck with everything, keep doing
what you do. Thank you, all right, take care.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Knowing well, I had fun with Jamale today and we
spoke about everything from injuries, Taylor Townsend and the way
black women in sports and media are framed by the press.
So I had fun today and now you know, you
can listen on every Wednesday download Share and we'll see
you back, now you know, and no. Dave Brosso is
(27:43):
a production of iHeartMedia and partnership with Recent Choice Media.
Now You Know and No de Brosso is a production
of iHeartMedia and partnership with Recent Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
All right, welcome back to Now You Know. I'm your host.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
No de Brasso in today's guest is someone whose voice
has shaped how we understand sports, culture and politics for
well over a decade.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Jamel Hill Alive. You remember in.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Twenty seventeen when she made headlines for calling out President
Trump and then later taking on the Dallas Cowboys and
their owner for threatening to bench players for protesting during
the anthems. That moment sparked national debate, even with the
White House weighing in.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Trump mentioned and all.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
We'll also get into Jamel's perspective on what it means
to show grace and professionalism in the face of backlash,
whether that's Angelies pushing for excellence and being criticized Taylor
Townsend holding her own at the US Open. Jamel shared
with US that the past two years have been some of.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
The hardest of her career.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Multiple projects stalled, stepbacks piled up. She's had to wrestle
with self doubt, even as she remains confident in her
talent and purpose.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Hey, No, what how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
How are you?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I am good. Thank you so much for inviting me
to be on with you.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
I've seen some of your other interviews and you are
already a really good interviewer.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I really appreciate that. Tell me about some of the
books in your background. All right, So I have Candas
Parker's book, Who is Somebody?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Athlete? I've admired for a long time.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
But and you know this as an interviewer, is that,
especially when you have people on your podcasts who write books,
you should read them just to give you more information
about who they are. So I read Candis's book because
she was a guest on my podcast. This book here,
John Conyers the third, he John Kiers was a very
beloved congressman in Michigan. He was actually, I believe the
(01:57):
first congressman to introduce reparations as a big Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
He's from Detroit, where I'm from.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
And so his son wrote a book about his relationship
with his father, what it was like growing up with
such a famous congressman.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
And he and I didn't event together. So I read
his book. And then we have If.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
You see these children's books, that's mostly because I'm writing
a children's book, or it's done it's coming out in
the top hopefully the first quarter of next year.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Tell me by your children's book. That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Yeah, So the children's book, the thesis of it is
teaching kids how to be unapologetic, which is essentially how
to stand up for themselves, how to navigate, how they
use their voice when things aren't right, and even not
necessarily how to have courage because that's kind of nebulous,
(02:49):
but just what it means to advocate and stick up
for yourself. And so, in addition to telling parts of
my story, I also told parts of a number of
of famous women who I felt like were very unapologetic,
from Coco Golf to is b Wells to Ruth Carter,
(03:10):
who the costume designer for the Black Panther movies, among
many other things she's done. I think she's the first
African American to win multiple Academy Awards, and so she
won them all for costume design. So just different women
and just what they've meant to me watching them from Afar,
and how it's inspired me to also be unapologetic. WHOA Okay, well,
(03:33):
I know a lot about your background and I have
to ask just on a sports perspective in my eyes,
you are advocacy and then sports, and I have to
ask you about this. How are you feeling about Andurice's
suspension on this morning?
Speaker 4 (03:49):
So I thought the suspension was really unbecoming of the organization.
You know, I've covered sports for almost three decades now,
and really highly competitive players they want to win. And
we saw this with Kobe Bryant. He was known to
criticize his organization. He even at one point asked for
(04:11):
a trade because he was so upset with the direction
of the franchise. So like, it's not particularly new, and
I think what we heard from her was frustration with
the organization and just her saying that for them to
be competitive, they need better players. And anybody who watched
this guy, this is kind of like saying water is
what they won ten games? Right, So but I didn't
(04:33):
think her expressing her frustration was detrimental. I thought it
was obvious. And the Chicago skuy it was interesting because
I think it was the athletic They take a poll
and they asked WNBA players different things like who's the
best coach, who's the best player, who's the best organization?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
And I believe it was the guy that got.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
The player vote for the worst organization in the WA.
So it's not like the thing she said is without merit,
And I didn't feel like she was attacking her teammates.
She said, we need better players, and I think it's
pretty obvious when you win those few games, you indeed
do need better players. So I thought it sent a
bad message to her is she's supposed to be one
(05:17):
of your franchise faces. And I thought it said a
lot about why maybe some of these criticisms of the
organization are justified.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Okay, And so tell me a little bit, like what
would you have done in her position? Would you have
stayed quiet and maybe just said let it play out,
or would you kind of want the injuries in the
Jamel Hill route.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
My guess is that she probably has had this conversation
within the organization, and if I were her and I
was feeling that frustration, and I think that that's something
that she maybe should have shared with the veteran on
the team, because the veteran probably could have helped her
navigate that situation a little bit better. But at the
same time, it's kind of hard to tell a angel
(06:00):
not to be herself because she's always been honest and
forthcoming about what she's experiencing. And so to tell a player,
you can't be that, or you shouldn't be frustrated with losing.
If you're the Sky, you should have taken that as
a great sign because it means that one of your
best players it matters to her, she cares, She's passionate
(06:23):
about it.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
She wants the team to do well.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
They're not that far removed from winning a championship, and
she wants them to structurally kind of take on that
role again to be one of the top teams in
the WNBA. So I think, and this, you know, this
will come with a little more experience and wisdom.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
I think there are times where you have to do
that just to light a fire under the organization. As
she matures in the WNBA, I think she'll figure out
the best way to fight certain battles for sure. So
if you were the Chicago Sky, how would you Because
this is interesting, I don't What do you have taken
from that?
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Is what I'm going to ask.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
I think what I would have taken from it is
that we need to figure out a way to be
on the same page with our best player and with
somebody who is the kind of the face of our organization,
and what do we need to do to better support
her so that she doesn't feel like we're directionless. They're
more likely to get on the same page if there's
(07:23):
a spirit of collaboration. But sometimes the tough love stuff again,
it does work.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I mean, when when.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Kobe asked for a trade, specifically, it sort of got
out there that he wanted to trade be traded to
the Clippers because they were still right there in La.
I think that little bit of a fire under the Lakers.
So I think there are times where it is necessary
for the star player to call out their organization. So
I'm thinking that if I'm them, then I'm having a
(07:51):
series of conversations with her about what they can do
to show better support and more importantly, prove that they're
when they're headed in the right.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Right And this is this is obviously good criticism. You
care for the NBA, you, I mean the WNBA. You
want this to be a better organization. I don't know
if you care about Chicago Sky or not, but you
care about the sport as a whole. And so where
do you think this advice? You give advice on every
on every spectrum. You give advice in politics, you give
advice in sports. As of right now, at least, where
(08:23):
do you think your influence is most needed in politics
or in sports?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Well, I happen to be of the belief that both
of those things are intertwined, So there's no separation for me.
A lot of the things that you see happening in
sports are saying things that mirror or reflect what's happening
politically for us. There are are fights being waged on
multiple fronts.
Speaker 3 (08:44):
Like we were just talking about the w NBA. Now
we know for.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Decades there has been a constant conversation and a constant
need to address the gender page disparity, and we see
a very big one between female athletes and male athletes.
The WNBA players During WNBA All Star Weekend, they wore
shirts t shirts that created a lot of conversation called
pay us what you owe us. They're in the middle
(09:10):
of a labor negotiation with the WNBA league owners, and
so I think that's a really good example of something
that is generally a issue within our wider society that
is also an issue in sports, is women fighting for
pay equity, fighting for fair treatment, fighting for opportunity in
(09:33):
many ways are related to a fight for dignity. So
you know, that's why I think sports is such a
perfect vehicle to get people to understand politics a little
bit better, you know, especially now in our country, we're
very politically divided. But the beauty of sports is that
it's one of the few things that actually brings us together.
It doesn't matter what race you are, gender, socioeconomic background.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
You all like the Lakers.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
You all like the Lakers, you all like Lebron, You
all like Lebron, and so because you have the commonality
of liking and enjoying the same thing, I think it
allows for an opportunity for people to listen to the
issues differently because they already have the commonality established.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
That sports allows.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, you spoke about WNBA pay. I'm very very curious
in your eyes, what should WNBA players get paid?
Speaker 2 (10:26):
If you have anything in mind.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Of course, well I will.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
I'll say this is that the players themselves, and I'm
certainly not of this belief either, they have never advocated
to be paid the same as NBA players. These are
different leagues, different histories, and clearly different revenue. You know,
the NBA has existed for like eight decades. You know,
they had quite a bit of head start over the NBA.
(10:51):
They have multiple billion dollar television deals, so they're able
to pay their players a lot more because their financial
structure is more sound and more robust. That being said,
this is a very explosive year for the WNBA the
last two years, and the ceiling is quite high. So
for the first time in WNBA league history, you have teams,
(11:14):
multiple teams that are valued at well over two hundred
and fifty three hundred million dollars, So that means that
there's more revenue coming in. And they just signed the
largest television deal that they've ever had. So when you
do that, you have to pay the players more. The
product only becomes more valuable. So I know that the
players are fighting for a fifty percent revenue share, meaning
(11:36):
they want fifty percent of all basketball related income that
comes into the league. They want that devoted towards salary.
And I don't know what the magic number is, but
I know that for the health of the players, for
this product to continue to grow and explode the way
it has, they can have a situation where these players
(11:58):
have to go overseas and play there in order to
supplement their income. You want the best talent in the
world to play in the WNBA, and they do already,
but you want to disincentivize them from playing in Russia
to do what Britney Grinder had to do. She was
over in Russia because Russia was paying her seven figures.
(12:20):
And if America still believes in being a model for
the world, then it doesn't look great optically when countries
who have a poor track record in human rights, like Russia,
when they are able to pay female athletes, your female
athletes that are Americans six seven times what they make
(12:42):
in America.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
That says a lot.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
And so I'm not sure what the magic number is,
but I know it can't be the current number, which
is nine percent of revenue. It has to be something
that players are able to strictly make a living playing
basketball in the WNBA.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, all right, we're not quite done yet. I will
be right back and in the meantime you can find
me on all social media is at Native rosso. As
soon as you said playing overseas, I thought about Brittany Grinder.
(13:21):
We spoke about politics and sports coming together. How did
you feel about President Biden partnering Britney Griner.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Well, I thought that him negotiating for her release was.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Sorry, I didn't mean to say, pardon, I'm sleepyizing the trade.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
Yeah, that's right, Yes, yeah, he negotiated. Him and Kamala Harrison,
an entire team of American officials negotiated for her release.
And when you read all the factors in the case,
it's like, no, she never should have been detained and
sentenced to ten years in a Russian prison. That was
not remotely one of those situations where the pun fits
(14:01):
the crime. And clearly the Russian government saw an opportunity
to use a basketball player of her caliber and of
her fame as a bargaining chip to be able to
get the I think his name is Victor balk be
able to get him released.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
And so when.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
You read about the journey, because she has a book
out which I've read, Brittany's Journey being detained for I
think almost two years something like that, I mean it
was horrific, and so I think her case, beyond her
being released, what it did was shed a light on
a lot of other Americans who are also being detained,
(14:44):
who were also able to as a result of her case,
garnering so much attention, they were also able to come home,
and so I thought it was among the slate of
accomplishments that Joe Biden was able to accomplish. I thought
this was a pretty significant one.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Right right, And this was a heavily, of course covered
topic in media, and these often can get fun. They
can say I headline can say that you said whatever
about this. And as yourself, what is a misconception perpetrated
by the media about you?
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Well, I think there's a few perceptions, and it's some
of which I think women who look like me always
have to deal with.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
This.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
One is that I'm angry, which I'm not too. Is
that I'm super serious, and anybody who knows me in
real life would know that that's entirely the exact opposite
is that I am a pretty laid back person. I
like to have fun, I like to laugh, and so
I think people think that by the nature of the
(15:49):
things I talk about, that represents the totality of who
I am.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
I think that's a big misperception about me.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And you know, I think sometimes people confuse ability with
you being you know, I don't want to use the
word cancel because that's such an overused word and our
in our society. But when I talk about serious issues
and want to bring attention to them, what I'm looking
for is acknowledgment and accountability, like not for people to
(16:19):
be burned.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
At the stake. It's like those two things matter. Resolution matters.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
And so I think people have it in their minds
that I'm just a walking protest billboard, and that's that's.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Not really who I am, right right?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And And what would you say, like you're you accidentally
say something in an interview that might give that off?
What do you think is the first thing that gives
people that impression?
Speaker 4 (16:45):
So what I would say, and this is a lesson
that I continue to have to sort of speak to
myself a firm within myself is I don't want to
explain myself to people whose intention is to misunderstand.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
I can only be me.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
I put out there what I put out there, and
live with whatever consequences there are. And so you can't
really control how other people perceive you. You can only
be true to yourself and be authentic because I think
people generally respect that. So in whatever media space I'm in,
I'm trying to be authentic and true to myself and
(17:28):
that's it. And I can deal with whatever criticism or
praise that I receive because I feel pretty confident and
rooted in my own identity.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
So I want to get back to something more shiny.
Your children's book. This is one of your big projects
that I haven't heard much about. So go into debt
about go and a depth about it.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
So I know people are probably pretty surprised about the
idea of me writing a children's book. I wrote a
memoir that was about my life called Uphill that was
I would say, probably a little bit on the heavier side.
And as I just mentioned to you, I tend to
talk about heavier topics a good bit of the time
in my media career. And so I was approached maybe
(18:19):
a little less than two years ago about the idea
of writing a children's book that was built around this
idea of teaching kids how to be their authentic and
unapologetic sales. I think we, especially given what our climate is,
we want to always encourage young people, especially to encourage
them to use their voice, encourage them to be bold
(18:43):
and to be daring, and that can come in many
different forms, like we're.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Not asking them to do anything crazy.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
But I think history has provided us a litany of
examples of how sometimes even the smallest acts, or even
just being excellent at what you do, can provide inspiration
for others. So I talk a lot in this children's
book about what it was like for me growing up
in Detroit as a young girl who loved sports, and
(19:08):
at the time, young girls who loved sports wasn't really
a thing, you know, So I often was competing against
the boys and you know, in spaces that were more
male dominated, and it taught me a lot of great
life lessons.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
I mean, sports in general did. It's why I became
a sports writer. I was a tomboy growing up.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I loved playing sports, I loved watching sports, and so
sports gave me such important lessons and was such a
great foundation for me. I wanted to share what that
meant to be in that kind of environment at that time,
and the kind of confidence.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
That it gave me.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
And it was a big reason why I think people
recognized me as being unapologetic. It was something that I
derived from playing sports, and so this book is about
that journey, and it's also about highlighting a number of
women of color who have been able to do the
same things in their respective fields, from id B. Wills
(20:07):
to Ruth Carter to Amy Scherraul Cocoa Goth like I
have a mixture of to Justice Kantanji Brown Jackson. So
I have a number of women who I talk about
in the book from different fields, from politics to law,
to the arts to sports, so that regardless of whether
(20:29):
or not you are naturally interested in these subjects, this
is an opportunity for you to not only learn about them,
but see through how they operated in their lives and careers.
You know what it means to be bold, to be courageous,
and what that looks like, and what's the reward from
doing that?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Can people pre order? Where is this all at?
Speaker 4 (20:51):
The idea was it for it to come out the
first quarter of next year. So in the next couple months,
hopefully I'll have a pre order date for everybody.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
That's really I'll make sure I get mine, and I'll even.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Get you a sign copy because these are what I
appreciate that I really do. That book kind of made me,
kind of brought me to this question at ages even eight.
I was thinking thirteen through sixteen, but even seven through seventeen.
Do you think kids, especially black kids, should focus on
let's say school sports or entrepreneurship or something in that
(21:26):
kind of future.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
What do you think that? Where are you on that discussion?
Speaker 4 (21:29):
So I'll admit that my answer is rooted in a
little bit of privilege. And from this standpoint, I was
the outlier who knew from the time that I was
in ninth or tenth grade.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
I think you can relate to this, given what you do.
I knew then I wanted to.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Be a sports journalist. It's the only thing I've ever
tried to do. It's the only career I've ever pursued.
It was truly my passion. I love writing, I love reading,
I love learning, and I love journalism and all those
things to me all fit together. And obviously I love sports.
And because I knew at such an early age what
I wanted to do, then that's what drove me.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
That was my single minded pursuit.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
And I think what we should be telling young people
is to think passion first.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I guess it's the old guidance counselor.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Question, what would you still do passionately even if you
weren't getting paid for it? And listen when I was
in college, I was getting paid thirty dollars a story
to write about high school sports. And I love the
profession now just as much as I did when I
was getting thirty bucks a story. And so I think
(22:42):
that's how you discover what you're good at and if
you're really passionate about it, and if you're good at it,
you're going.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
To make money at it.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
It could be something that's traditional, like owning a business.
It could be something more like what I pursued. It
could be fashion, it could be a number of things.
But I have just found and in all walks of life,
the people that think passion first are the people that
wind up being successful. So I know entrepreneurship is, you know,
(23:11):
obviously a hot topic, and I get it.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
I was drug into entrepreneurship.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I did not want to do it, but you know,
it became necessary as I sort of plotted out this
part of my life.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
And it's not for everybody like that is not easy
to do. And so I think that we should encourage
our young people to do the things that they really
want to do, and not the things just to make money,
because if you go at it just to make money,
you will not be happy, not long term, right, all right,
hold up, we'll be right back after this quick break.
(23:53):
A lot of people think of it as a risk,
like from seven or six to seventeen, you're doing the practices,
you're doing everything it takes. Would you encourage that kind
of resk? What do you think the kind of safety
net is? What I think is that from those ages
that you talked about, you should be trying everything to
figure out what it is you really want to do.
(24:15):
Because sometimes what is detrimental is when you lock in
much too early, and you lock in because you think
it makes a lot of money, and then you've invested
all this time and you wind up staying in it
just because you've invested the time and not because you
like it. And so when you're in elementary or middle
school or high school, like if you want to.
Speaker 3 (24:38):
Write for your high school paper, do it.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Just to see what it feels like, or try other
extracurricular activities that are available in your school just to.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
Understand, like, hey, do I like this or do I not?
And think about the things that bring you joy as
a part of that self discovery. So I think we
need to allow some room for self discovery. Your passion
could be doing hair, and if that's the case, figure
out ways to pursue that passion. If that is your passion,
if you're creatively inclined, if you love doing makeup and
(25:09):
want to be a makeup artist, like, follow those passions
and you can follow them early. So you know, I
just think that we probably don't encourage kids to experiment enough.
And I get it because college is very expensive, and
they've made it impossible to show up on college campuses
and not have any idea what you.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Want to do because you're spending so much money to
be there. But at least while you're.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
In a situation where maybe you go to public schools
so your school is free, or you're in an environment
where your parents can afford to put you in private school.
While you're in these spaces, explore everything absolutely. And I
appreciate the children's book announcement. That was unexpected. I'm excited
to hear about it. And now it's time for a
(25:58):
tad bit of fun. I want to say some names,
and I want for you to give me the first
word that comes to mind at that. Okay, this injuries unapologetic. Okay,
Kamala Harris fears Vladimir Putin.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Criminal okay, bg Brittany Grinder, Brittany Grinder, resilient, resilient, steven A. Smith,
hardworking Okay, Donald Trump, I'm trying to think of something.
(26:41):
Narcissist okay, Caitlin Clark trailblazer, trail blazer.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Okay. Dave cortnoy Man, you really.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Are challenging me here, You're trying stupidity. Well, I really
really really want to thank you for coming on now,
you know. And I'm so so excited have you and
(27:11):
I hope to see you in real life soon.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Yeah, same here, and good luck with everything, keep doing
what you do. Thank you, all right, take care.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Knowing well, I had fun with Jamale today and we
spoke about everything from injuries, Taylor Townsend and the way
black women in sports and media are framed by the press.
So I had fun today and now you know, you
can listen on every Wednesday download Share and we'll see
you back, now you know, and no. Dave Brosso is
(27:43):
a production of iHeartMedia and partnership with Recent Choice Media.
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