November 26, 2025 • 55 mins
With Thanksgiving approaching, Knowa frames the episode as a moment of reflection and responsibility: a time when many families gather, give thanks, and think about freedom—while thousands of people remain incarcerated pre-trial or wrongfully convicted. Lauren Bright Pacheco’s new season of Wrongful Conviction brings that tension into sharp focus, highlighting overlooked stories, investigative failures, and families who continue fighting through the holidays.
From there, Knowa makes it clear he’s only scratching the surface. His curiosity is shifting toward how influencers amplifying cases or partnering with organizations like the Reform Alliance can shift public pressure toward policy change.
Then, Fulton County Sheriff Patrick Labat breaks down why celebrity arrests at Fulton County Jail end up revealing the same systemic issues everyday residents face. When high-profile figures go through intake and publicly describe overcrowding, slow processing, or poor conditions, it draws rare national attention to problems that wrongfully convicted people and pre-trial detainees endure for far longer. Sheriff Labat uses these moments to contextualize the county’s ongoing challenges: insufficient funding, safer infrastructure, and the cascading impact of understaffing on jail conditions.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now you know, and No de Barrosso is a production
of iHeartMedia and partnership with Recent Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
How are you today, I'm honestly great. I'm talking to you.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I really appreciate it. Seriously, I say the exact same
thing I copy and paste back. So look, I'm excited
for this because I'm doing a criminal justice episode today
and this topic is new to me, so I would
love for you to walk me through it and guide
me and talk to me about it.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I have to say that this topic, in a weird way,
was entirely new to me at some point too. I
had written you a little note before we got the
chance to speak. But I am the daughter of an attorney.
My dad was a corporate attorney, but the law was
his religion, and so I was raised really respecting the law,
(00:52):
respecting the rule of law, respecting anybody who was involved
in any way, shape or form with enforcing the law.
And then as journalist, I started covering more and more
true crime stories and it was a huge eye opener
for me.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
But in terms of.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Wrongful convictions, I was astounded to know that they happened
at all, because I would assume that the system was
set up to protect the most vulnerable individuals, and it's not.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
And there are many layers to it. So where should
we start?
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, first things first, Ms Lauren, I want to introduce
you to something. Are you ready?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
So, I don't know if this is an Atlanta thing,
it's something like that. But if we speaking of wrongful
convictions and people that deserve their freedom or even a
second chance, we would say free. So and so it's hill,
it's backwards. If there is anyone in this world that
you could have free, whether they're in Joe wrongfully or
they just deserve a second shot, who would it be.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
There are two people actually very close to my heart.
One is a gentleman in Illinois, Christopher Vaughn, who was
convicted in twenty twelve for the murder of his wife
and three children. But I did an investigative podcast on
him and realize that he's innocent, that it was a
(02:18):
murder suicide. But it was one of those cases where
there's such outrage because of the nature of the crime.
You have a lot of pressure on law enforcement from
the media and from the public.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And he.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Spent five years in prison as a pre trial detainee
before setting foot in the courtroom, and he did so
with the full presumption of guilt, not innocence, because he'd
already been tried in the media. And that's why it
continues to be one of the most polarizing cases I've covered.
But he has been in there for almost two decades
(02:55):
at this point, after having lost his entire family in
the most tragic way.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
So that is why.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Christopher Vaughn and what's his name, Christopher Vaughn von Vaughn Okay,
And the other one is a young mother also in
southern in Illinois. There are a lot of unfortunate, wrongful
convictions that take place in Illinois, but she is serving
fifty five years for the twenty twenty stabbing murder of
(03:23):
her eleven year old stepdaughter. She is the focus of
my most recent podcast, which is Murder on Songbird Road.
This case is like a tragedy onion. There's so many
layers to it. But one of the worst in addition
to the tragic death of this eleven year old girl,
who I do not believe Julie Beverly murdered, is the
(03:43):
fact that she found out Beverly that she was pregnant
a few weeks into her having been arrested, and they
took that baby from her within an hour without the
legal right to do it, and she to this day
has not held that son that she gave birth to
nearly five years ago. So I would say Julie Beverly
(04:07):
from Southern Illinois and Christopher Vaughn.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
That Christopher's story, Christopher of Illinois is so. It's because
at any time, right, false accusation or wrongful you know,
wrongfully being convicted can happen to anyone. Like tomorrow, you
can go to Starbucks they said, hey, you're under arrest.
There is nothing you can do about it, even if
it's before we move away from that. If there is
(04:34):
anything you could say, because this is something I want
to know as well, is if there is anything you
could say to someone that is afraid of wrongful conviction,
what would it be?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
I would quote a young man named Noah who says,
why should you care? That that is the driving motivation
for you to get people involved in politics. Well, social
justice and prison reform is the exact same thing, and
people should care because you're right, it could happen to them,
It could happen to somebody they love. And the crazy
(05:07):
thing is the system is set up in a way
to move at lightning speed when it decides you're guilty,
lightning speed, but it reverses like a frozen slug and
a freezer when it comes time to take responsibility for
(05:28):
having made a mistake.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
It is really difficult.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
On average, wrongfully convicted people serve on average sixteen years
in prison before they're released.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
We'll never get that time back.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Never and when they do get compensated for their lost time,
taxpayers are fitted.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
But we're going to talk about payouts for wrongful convictions.
So on, Christopher, are you in touch with these families, like,
for example, Christopher stories really in my mind here, I.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Would invite you to listen to murder in Illinois. I
just before I got on the phone with you, was
receiving text messages from his mother, Gail. So you know,
I do get very personally involved and attached.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
To these cases. It's difficult not to.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Injustice is one of those things for me that maybe
it's because I'm the middle kid of five.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
You know, I don't like it when things aren't fair.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And once you see the injustice, particularly in terms of prison,
the need for prison reform and judicial reform, you can't
unsee it. And my heart breaks for these families because
often the only way out of this abyss is with money.
(06:48):
And I think it's Centurion, which is a great organization
that is dedicated to investigating and overturning wrongful convictions, which
was founded by a former Episcopalian priest. But they estimate
that it costs about eight hundred thousand dollars for defense
(07:09):
a wrongful conviction. Yeah, because you know, there's another really
great prison reform advocate named Joe Engle who is also
a man of clergy, but he has very famously said,
and it's always stuck with me, show me a man
on death row, and I'll show you somebody who couldn't
(07:30):
afford a good lawyer.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
So I will never move on from Chrispher's story. I'm
going to do my research.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Oh and you know what, follow me up with any questions.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
But it's really heartbreaking because there were five people in
the car that day, Christopher, his wife, and their three children,
and they're all victims because Kimberly was on two different medications,
one that enhanced suicidal ideation, but the other one that
(08:05):
just basically messed with her mind. So she was not
of her right mind. It's just again a heartbreaking story.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
You know how much Christopher has spent so much so
far on defense, did he meet the eight hundred thousand mark?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
His case is really interesting because this happened in two
thousand and seven, and in the five years that they
were leading up to trial, Chicago did away with the
death penalty, and that means that he was no longer
given money to defend himself. So at one point he
(08:41):
had the best possible criminal defense team, and that was
removed in two thy eleven. So he headed into trial
with public defender who had less than a year to
prepare a case that the state had been prepping now
(09:02):
for five years. So it was you know, you can
say David versus Goliath, this was Davy versus Godzilla. There
was no He didn't have a snowballs chance in an
oven at that point.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
And is there anyone, I want to talk about the
pardon system a little bit later. Is there anyone that
could use their executive power to parton Christopher?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, Pritzker, but this is the problem. So the governor
of Illinois could. But it's a polarizing case because there
are people who very much believe that if you're convicted
of a crime, particularly a family annihilator case, a politician
is not going to want to touch it if they
(09:48):
are running again for office because there's potentially political blowback.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
So JB. Pritzker right now could pardon Christopher.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Absolutely clemency, And so what would that process look like.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Let's say tomorrow, JB. Pritzker finds I was with Pritzker
last month.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
JB.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Pritzker finds in his heart to pardon Christopher. What does
that process look like?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
I think that.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Unfortunately, because he was incapable at the time of his
trial of defending himself.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Keep in mind, again.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
You're supposed to be given a speedy trial. He was
held for five years after having lost his entire family
in the most gruesome possible way, was never given any
kind of psychological counseling or help, and he had completely
shut down by the time when he was in trial.
(10:47):
He no longer cared to defend himself and so he
basically slept walk through that trial. It's as sad and
tragic as it possibly could be. And he was just
sitting rotting in prison until the podcast aired.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
And he has a tremendous amount of.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Support I support it because of you.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I appreciate that and invite anybody who's interested to do
their own research into it. The discovery is actually available online.
His mother has a support group on Facebook called Christopher
Vaughan is Innocent. And there are plenty of people who
now understand what they didn't understand in twenty twelve, which
(11:36):
is that wrongful convictions happen, that they're possible, and at
a much higher rate than we understand. It's estimated that
between two and ten percent of people in prison right
now in this country are innocent that they did not
convict the crimes.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
How do you collect data on that? Do you just
take their word for no?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
You can't, you know?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
And there are some credible organizations like the Innocence Project
that will reinvestigate the cases and use DNA.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Unfortunately, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
It's not all lancy groups potentially, No.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I mean these are lawyers who dedicate their time and
go about reinvestigating.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
They do a great job.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
I'm working with the Illinois Innocence Project and the Exoneration Project,
both in Illinois on one case. They have been very supportive.
They're doing it. Sounds so cheesy to say God's work,
but it really is. I mean, you have people who
have entered a profession that many people associate with greed
(12:46):
and going to law school, so you can have a
ton of zeros at.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
The end of your paycheck. But these are people who are.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Taking on cases where these individuals often don't have the
resources for proper defense, and that's unfortunately why many of
them landed in the situation to begin with, because there
aren't enough qualified public defenders and they are overwhelmed with
(13:17):
their workloads and they don't have the capacity or the
bandwidth to properly defend people. So you have people taking
plea deals though they're factually innocent, because they don't want
to roll the die at what could be a much
longer sentence.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
And could we get for the cause a free Christopher
Tilla is backwards?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I mean absolutely, I welcome any support in terms of
trying to get Chris out, and the same way with
Julie Beverly murder on Songbird Road, I think is the
best work I've done. I joined forces with a criminal
defense attorney named Bob Matta who has a great podcast
(14:04):
called Defense Diaries, and he and I went down to
Mary in Illinois and reinvestigated the misinvestigation reinvestigated what likely
happened and also took a look at.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
How the triald played out.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
This is a woman of mixed race in a southern
Illinois town that still called a sundown town. And sundowntowns
are a place where people of color are allowed to
come in and work, but they're expected to leave by
an archaic term. So when I heard Mary in Illinois
(14:44):
referred to as a sundown town, I was shocked.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
But you go down.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
There and sure enough, this is a mixed race woman
who was accused of stabbing her eleven year old stepdaughter,
a child she had raised as her own for eight years,
was engaged to the father, who was white, and she
was tried in front of an all white jury. Actually,
(15:09):
the judge removed somebody who was there to support her
because the jury said that this woman's presence made them uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Just so happened. This woman's also mixed race.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
So does representation matter in the courtroom?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
One hundred percent? We're supposed to be tried by a
jury of our peers. Do you have to be the
same color to be impartial?
Speaker 3 (15:38):
No, you don't.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
But when there's a complete lack of diversity, in a
town that is known for its lack of diversity. I
mean the stuff that was posted in the local social
media about Julie Bevely.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
It was beyond the pale when.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I say that race played an important art in her
conviction on social media before she even set foot in
the courtroom.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Again, it was three years before her trial.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, And so I want to ask you about this
thing I saw I was watching. I was watching TV actually,
and usually I don't find it out about legislation through TV,
but this was a rare case. In Georgia. There was
this bill. I don't know if it passed, you might
know all about it. You that wrongful convictions would get
(16:30):
compensated for their time in prison, even though it didn't
make a lot, And so I was disappointed when a
lot of Democrats voted against it. And so I want
to I want to ask you, are you do you
know about this bill?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (16:43):
I think it's seventy five thousand.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
It is, yeah, a year, unless you're on death row,
in which case it's one hundred thousand for a wrongful condiction. Look,
I talked about not having a level playing field. Here's
the problem. The prosecution is allowed to what I would
call cheat. They can get a gel house snitch, an informant.
(17:08):
They can incentivize testimony. It's not so you can basically say, look,
you say this guy's guilty, you place them at the
scene of the crime and will give you a lesser
sentence or.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
You get out.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
There's incentivized testimony that's allowed far too often. You have
mishandling of evidence in wrongful convictions. You have people who
are tried where they know full well the prosecution that
it is an innocent person. There's no accountability for prosecutorial misconduct.
(17:48):
There is not real accountability for misconduct of law enforcement.
There's a really notorious former police detective in Chicago.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
It's only the Illinois with.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Chicago's notorious, unfortunately, but this guy, Detective Ronaldo Guervera, is
still collecting his pension. He's in his eighties. He's living
his best life now. But taxpayers have already paid out
one hundred and twelve million dollars to settle the wrongful
(18:27):
convictions he coused. Because he would just go into neighborhoods
and round up young brown and beij boys.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I've never heard brown and beige before.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
And these kids had no chance.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, So I want to ask you, could I give
you a scenario and you tell me if this is
an actual real thing happening in the courtroom. A case
happens in two thy twenty two in the case will
go on long enough to pass election day. Here's why
election day will matter. Is there enough time for the
(19:07):
lawyers and the defense and whoever may be a conflict
of interest to get a district attorney fighting really really
hard against the case for a case or whatever it
may be, to get them out of office and get
their way. Is that something that actually happens. No.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I think that the problem is that the system trusts
that the system is working correctly.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
That's the problem.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
That the system is not evaluating itself in real time.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
And that's why it's really important.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
And Georgia just had one set up as well, that
there are conviction integrity units. In other words, the law
does not like once the court has made a decision,
it doesn't like to look.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
In the rear view mirror.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And that's what conviction integrity units do. Because unfortunate, as
is the case with you know, Detective Guerdera.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Was a police officer for twenty nine years.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
He was planting evidence, incentivizing testimony, flat out targeting people
who were innocent that he knew were innocent because he
didn't think it would ever catch up with him. He
didn't think that it matters because the system is more
interested in wins than justice. When you have prosecutors are
(20:32):
elected officials, you don't like that. I don't because they
run on their records and nobody wants to lose. So
the system is designed to go after wins, not justice.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
And now you know within de Brasso we'll be right back.
Do you think policy effects like, for example, it's not
a partisan issue because from what you're telling me, pritzgrah
has done close to nothing to help someone like Christopher
(21:10):
out of fear of losing reelection, which wouldn't happen in
Illinois if I was one of his advisors. That wouldn't
be something I put in front of him. Would you
say that policy has anything to do with these wrongful convictions?
Is there a failure in policy in some way? Is
because this isn't a partisan thing? Can any one politician
help this issue?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
You know the root of all evil.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Money and when you have a prison for profit system,
which we do, bodies become the commodities. So I would say,
you have to look at the amount of money that
we spend on incarceration. There is a reason why we
have the highest rate of incarceration of any you know,
(21:53):
civilized democracy. There is a reason why most states in
our country have more people in prison than other countries
have in their entirety of prison population. And you know,
I would say that conservative estimates place the amount of
money we spend in this country on prison for profit
(22:20):
eighty one billion to one hundred and eighty two billion.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Is this actually keeping anyone safe?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Key, No, that's that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
You know, if you get a chance to watch it,
there is a great post that Texas Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett.
A huge fan of hers to begin with, but I
will take anything she says on this topic on prison reform,
on social justice even more to heart because she, after
(22:50):
she graduated from law school, was a public defender, so
she worked in the public defender's office, and she shared
this story about a young man who was seventeen who
was busted for stealing candy from his school commissary less
than twenty bucks and basically he was put on probation,
(23:13):
but his mother couldn't take the time off from work
to get him there, So they end up throwing the
book at this young man and he goes to prison
twenty dollars of stolen candy. So he didn't go into
prison as a criminal, but according to Jasmine, he came
(23:36):
out as one because while he was in prison, he
learned how to cook meth, and so he came out
not rehabilitated, but completely corrupted.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Speaking of like the you know, prison conditions a little bit,
would you say that bad prison conditions scare people from
committing crime? For example, like the theory the ideology in
a lot of district attorney's offices is that, Okay, kids
will see this how scary prison is and not want
to go. Or should prisons actually be safe in quality?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
What is the purpose of prison?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
It's rehabilitation, right, We're not investing in that, And so
I would say that the problem with being scared straight
doesn't really work. You know, when I did one of
my first podcasts, it was a very notorious wrongful conviction
in Oregon. This guy spent three decades in prison for
(24:38):
a murder he didn't commit. It's a crazy story. It
was the murder of the head of Corrections in Oregon,
and Frank Gable is now out of prison. They have
awarded him two million dollars, which is nothing for thirty
years of a lost life. They knew he was innocent
when they tried him. But even more insidious, the people
(25:04):
who did it have never been held to account. They've
never been held responsible for doing it. But while I
was investigating that story, a former state representative said to me,
if you ever want to see how corrupt a prison is,
drive by their employee parking lot and look at the
(25:25):
make of the cars.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Let that sink in.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Because when you talk about people who come out of
prison addicted to drugs, where are the drugs coming from?
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Would you consider yourself a prison abolitionist.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
For our current system. Absolutely, there's got to be a
better way. I think that there are plenty of examples
of putting money into treatment programs, putting money into housing,
giving peace people the resources that they need so they
have easier choices to make in terms of how to
(26:07):
live a life and make a living than committing crimes.
But that has nothing to do with the wrongful convictions
that we're talking about. So if the incentive is to
keep prisons full and keep bodies in the cots, and
that is being incentivized by lobbyist dollars.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Take the money out of.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
It question speaking of money in en cash bail or
don't end cash bail, I say, en cash bail.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Tell me why, because you're people who are sitting in
prison not because they're guilty, but because they can't afford
to bail out.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I tried one time. I didn't experiment. I put on
Instagram stories and cash bail or not end cash bail
because there is a unique sense of on both sides.
There is criminal justice advocacy for those who say keep
the bail system. It's I think it's the theory is
they use no cash bill as a way to take
homes and stuff like that. Another side of it I
(27:08):
heard was and then on the end cash bail side
that richer people get to leave even if they did
worse or the same amount of crime. And so there's
kind of both sides of it. Would you say their
only quality to know cash bail is that people Is
there any comms to know cash bail?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
It's very complicated for all the reasons that you just stated. Yeah,
I honestly think that anything that is causing innocent people
to sit in prison needs to be reevaluated. And that's
why I would say to end cash bail.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, what does your justice repaired tool kit look like?
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Like?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
What is there a specific bill, a specific thing we
should abolish.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I would say, get away from the prison for profit. Basically,
get away from the system that we are currently bankrolling.
Take the money out of it, and then you can
put that money. And remember we were talking about a
tremendous amount of money.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
We were eighty one billion to one.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Hundred and eighty two billion. What if you were to
invest that into communities?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
I choked on that number, Ms Lauren.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
You know, invest it into housing, education. We know this
stuff works. We can look at other countries and see
how I think it's Norway that the prison population is plumbting.
They're closing down prisons because.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
They don't need them.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
You know, that's where we need to get to because
what we're doing obviously isn't working. You don't have two
million people sitting in prison. We talk about wrongful convictions.
The estimates are between two and ten percent, So between
forty six thousand and two hundred written forty fifty thousand people. Yeah,
(29:06):
innocent sitting in prison.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Any is there often a time where you look at
the current system because you have all sorts of criticism
of the current system and so to millions of Americans.
But do you ever see the system and see one
aspect of and say I'm thankful for the system. For example,
had there been a specific person that was charged that
would have been able to get out and do the
(29:29):
same crime. Again, do you ever look at this and say,
I'm thankful for this system.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Look, I think we all want to lead safe, healthy lives.
We want to live in communities that are safe and healthy,
and so, yeah, I think that there needs to be
some form of oversight. But maybe it is incentivising safety,
(29:56):
incentivizing health, incentivizing education. You know, when you put somebody
in prison for a crime that was caused by addiction,
you're not curing the addiction. Watch Jasmine Crockett because she
breaks it down in what she posted earlier this week.
(30:18):
She said the same as putting somebody in prison because
they have cancer, Yeah, and thinking that they're going to
be cured. The system is sick and it's not serving
the purpose of putting people back out into society as
better people and so that's the problem.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I watched in real time I think is the last
name I know. His first name is Marcellus Williams of
Saint Louis. I watched in real time just looking will get,
will he get pard and will get what's going to happen?
Have you ever watched something in real time and then
you saw a final decision you were like, no.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
There are many I watched how Frank Gable, who is
the case from Oregon, how hard he had to fight.
A lot of these wrongfully convicted people become jailhouse lawyers.
They actually learned the law not only to help themselves,
(31:19):
but end up helping multiple other inmates while they're in there,
because education becomes a really important weapon to fight these
wrongful convictions. So I remember my feeling ecstatic when finally
(31:40):
Frank Gable was released, but then in real time watching
him fight to be compensated for what was taken from
him was daunting. So many of these people after wrongful convictions.
You hear about the big settlements, right, but what you
(32:01):
don't hear about is so many of these people leave
prison with nothing more than the clothing.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
On their back.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
And this is after having been incarcerated for decades in
some cases, and so they walk back into worlds that
they don't recognize at not having the careers, and they're
left with nothing.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
And you actually have.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
No resources when you come out exonery. You don't qualify
for the same programs that help people who have served
time for crimes they did commit re integrate into society.
So it's insult on top of injury.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
I think, as we I'm going to be considered your timing.
You're super busy, is there? I want to have some
fun with you on a specific case. What is your
thoughts on there?
Speaker 3 (32:58):
I've not been following it.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Essentially a rapper or singer whatever. He has shot Meghan
is stallion the foot and he's kind of crying. I
didn't do anything.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Now remember this case, Well, Young Thug is an interesting thing. Yeah,
that's an interesting case as well. I don't feel that
I can comment with any kind of authority on the
gentleman who shot Megan the stallion in the foot, but
(33:28):
free Thug though, that's in addition to being an incredibly
talented artist. I do not believe that he was given
a fair shake.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Would you go to a Young Thug concert?
Speaker 3 (33:42):
I have been to a little Uzi for a concert.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I have not been to see Young Thug, but yeah,
I would love to.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, and he was in Rece Street on this Criminal
Justice episode, We're gonna have Sheriff Lebot to talk about
Rice Street. What is your thought once Street? He was
held there? And I also want to know your thoughts
on District Attorney Fanie Willis as well.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
I believe that Fannie Willis is an incredibly brilliant woman,
and she has made great strides in terms of dealing
with conviction integrity.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
I swore her in.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
I didn't know that. That's amazing. Yeah, I'm very impressed
with her.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
I was dismayed to see her pulled through the mud
for political reasons, and I think that she is very
dedicated and interested in getting things right in terms of
prison reform and just dealing with the judicial system in
(34:51):
the way in which it should be dealt With r Street,
I don't have many that's more local for you.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
I don't pay much attached to a law close up,
but Reich Street is something I think about, and we're
going to have him on to talk about it. Is
there anything that you wish that you would want me
to ask any politicians we have on my midterm series,
is there anything you would want me to ask them
and hold them accountable?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah, I would ask them about how important the pursuit
of conviction integrity units are because you need them not
just on a state level, but in a county level
as well, because the system should always be.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Re calibrating.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
It should be looking in the rear view mirror as
it's driving forward. Otherwise you're not pursuing justice. Unfortunately, injustice
has happened. It's ingrained within the system, and the only
way to stop it happening in the future is to
own up to mistakes that have been made and change policies.
(35:59):
I don't think there should be immunity for prosecutors. I
don't think that there should be immunity for law enforcement.
I don't think that somebody like Guervera in Illinois should
be collecting a ninety one thousand dollars a year pension
when the taxpayers have had to pay well over one
(36:20):
hundred million dollars to clean up the mess he made
with his criminal activity as a police officer.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
His misconduct tell me about wrongful convictions your podcast that
everyone can and totally should go download right now.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
It is one of my favorite shows to work on.
I am a huge fan of Jason Flomm, who was
one of the founding board members of The Innocence Project,
and he's fascinating because you'd love to speak with him.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
He's a music guy.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
He signed Katy Perry Lowered, Yes he did, and what
he has done with his platform and his privilege is
so inspiring. If you follow him on social media, you
will see that, like me, he remains very involved in
the stories that he tells.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
I went to his wedding.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
He married Khalil Ali, who is Muhammad Ali's one of
his daughters, and they had a beautiful wedding.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
And we were there with.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Barry Shek, who was one of the founding members of
the Innocence Project, but also tons of exonneries. Rightfully realized
that the best way to share this information is through
sharing the stories of the people who have lived these
wrongful convictions, because again, going back to your thing, why
(37:49):
should people care? That's how you get young people involved
in politics, and that's how you get people involved in
social justice.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
There we go, and I'm excited for this Criminal Justice
episode and for those people who are out here watching
who are afraid to be wrongfully convicted, that are like
Auntie is really looking out for us. Why do you
care so strongly about criminal justice?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
I think it goes back to what I was saying
about my dad being an attorney. This was the law
was my father's religion above all else. He really believed,
and I grew up visiting him. He had a great
corner office at thirty Rock, which is an iconic building
in New York City. It's where they tape Saturday Night Live.
It's that big building with a statue of Atlas above
(38:34):
a skating rink. In his corner office, he had this
picture and it was a little meloderatic now in retrospect,
but it was an attorney in a lawyer's robe putting
his hand up and behind him was Lady Justice, blindfolded
with the scales of justice. And at his feet was
you know, man dressed in rags who was clinging to
(38:58):
the lawyer's leg were for help, for comfort, for support,
and the lawyer was the one who was the strong person.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
And that is what I believed the law was.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
I didn't believe that the law profited the most privileged.
I believed that it protected the.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Honestly the most vulnerable.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
And when you see that that's not the case, you
can't unsee it. And so for me, if it's not fair,
it shouldn't be allowed to continue.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, we're head into the holidays, and I want to add,
there's so many thousands of Americans who are unable to
spend the holidays with their family. What is giving you hope?
Speaker 2 (39:48):
I think raising the fact that the awareness that has
been raised about wrongful convictions. And again I give great
credit to the podcast Wrongful Conviction, which has I think
over five hundred episodes at this point. I mean, these
are all cases that people can listen to and really
(40:10):
understand why wrongful convictions happen. We know why they happen.
We just need to know how to stop it. And
what makes me most optimistic and hopeful for the future
and for people serving time who should not be serving time,
is the fact that people now understand. And when you
(40:31):
can raise awareness for something, you can drive attention to it,
and in an ideal world, you can get people involved.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
So I would say everybody out there.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Listening right now has an innocence project or an innocence
organization in their state, and they can get involved. There
are lots of stories, particularly of young people who have
dedicated their time and their effort to helping and can
(41:03):
really make a difference. So that makes me optimistic. We
know we have a problem. We just all have to
pull together to fix it.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
There we go. Thank you so much Lauren for joining.
I'm excited for this Criminal Justice episode.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Get Jasmine Crockett on.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Really she was on the stage as well.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Get her on because she is such my gosh an
inspiration I have.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
She makes me very.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Optimistic about the future as well. And thank you guys
so much for making the content that you do.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
You know you're so talented.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
No, thank you, I appreciate that. Hey, folks, So today
on now, you know we have sheriff labat the sheriff.
When you hear the sheriff's name, you think of the
guy who got Trump to do the mugshot. Just like
everyone else. You also think of Rice Street conditions. It's
not entirely the sheriff's fault. In fact, it's not at
all the sheriff's fault. We're gonna speak in depth about
(41:56):
that here on. Now. You know, our wrongful conviction segment
was so powerful and we hurt the activist perspective from Lauren,
and now I wanted to get into someone who's boots
on the ground. So on today's second segment of the
Criminal Justice episode, I wanted to speak to Sheriff Labat
(42:20):
first of all about entertainers going into Rice Street, such
as reality stars R and B, singers and rappers such
as Young Thug that we spoke in depth about. Actually,
so let's get right into our second segment, even stretched Sheriff,
It's a lot going on, isn't it. Now. The first
time we did one of these interviews was not in
the studio. We recorded it while we were eating and
(42:43):
so I was like, I want to get an opportunity
to have a formal conversation, and now we get to.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
Have it, don't we get to have it? And I
could not be more proud. Right we're sitting right here
in iHeart Studios where and I mentioned earlier where people
wish they could be appreciate it. And it's not the
DJ situation. It's a situation where we're informing our community
what that looks like. And so I'm extremely proud of you.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
I appreciate, Thank you. Cher. What is your message to
the court system that are facing wrongful convictions and wrongfully
convicting those that all you have to do is book
them and make sure they're safe. And that's that's what
you do.
Speaker 4 (43:18):
Well, we're in the middle of that, right, you're absolutely right.
So yes, we book people, but we also created an
immin advocacy unit. And what that unit is is they
go through day after day, charge after charge and resident
after resident to focus on what can we do better
and if they are getting the proper representation. And so
(43:39):
you can ask the public defender. There are a number of
times a week or a month, I'll call him because
somebody told me, well, we hadn't seen our public defender
in two months. Well most of us. Most of that's hyperbole.
They hadn't They they've been seen, they just maybe didn't
understand and what was going on. And so how do
we work with the DA? The public Defender's Solicitor General
(44:00):
keep damage and his team too.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Alexander comes in there too, right.
Speaker 4 (44:05):
She does. She comes in Clerk, not Auntie Clerk. All right,
sure you heard that, So you need to come only
get on his podcast. But she is a vital part
of this community that allows us to get records on time,
make sure that they are accurate, and then process people
to the next space and what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, and so in this episode we have wrongful convictions hosts.
And what we spoke what we spoke about was cash
bell or no cash bell. Where are you on that
if you care to speak on that?
Speaker 4 (44:35):
As a share So I believe there's a space for
judges to make those decisions. We elect them for a reason.
And so whether judge says someone gets a cash bell,
we put that in there and their wielhouse to deal with.
I have watched some of the new laws dealing with
no cash bell really have our daily population rise. We
(44:57):
had gotten our daily population down to twenty three hundred,
down from thirty six hundred, and so now it is
slowly corrupt back up to nearly three thousand.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
People as a result of no cash bell.
Speaker 4 (45:08):
Right as a result right, and so that they are
where there are opportunities for us to meet in the
middle and get better at it. I think we have
to see.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
I appreciate that shirt because the activists don't know that statistic.
That's so power. I was sitting here like, oh, we
gotta get no cash bill, no cash biling. I didn't
make an official position, but I just learned something there
that's powerful.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
And the piece that where our legislators have gotten together,
and for instance, we would have senators and the like
House of representatives come on Father's Day on Mother's Day
and say I want to bail out one hundred people.
When they do that, well it can anymore. So they
change the statement. And so if they if you bail
out three people in a year's time, that fourth person,
(45:50):
now you can be charged.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
With the mister meaner And wait, what happened again?
Speaker 4 (45:54):
So let's say you can get all your sponsors all right,
and you come down there and Noah bails out three people.
When you get that fourth person to get ready to
be bailed out, you then can be charged with the crime.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
And so I know, I keeps saying, y'all, y'all, don't play.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
It's not us, it's not us. Keep it right. So
even the bail bond project was very it has been
very instrumental over the years of saying these people meet
certain standards, certain requirements, and they're safe to be back
on the street. Well, and even now judges don't sign
signature bonds. They have a judicial unsecured judicial release that
(46:31):
tracks who is being released and holds them a little
more accountable, but ultimately made it tougher for people to
get out of the facilities.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, what's your message to exoneries?
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Well, again, that's that's good representation. I'm a firm believer
in really good representation. You go back to Jeffrey Williams.
You're calling young thugs. But when you can afford Brian Steele, right,
that's a whole different conversation. I love Brian still and
make no bones about it, right that, and again, he
(47:05):
is the real life Harve respector I know you never
you never watched what was that?
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Suits? I don't know what harvespector?
Speaker 4 (47:12):
Okay, so go watch Brian's still, right, he's the real
life Harve respector, so go watch suits.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Do you have a spider shirt spider hoodie?
Speaker 4 (47:21):
I do not. I'll get us one to match.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
There we go. We're gonna do it. We're gonna do it.
And I think entertainment and Rice Street is so interlinked.
So have you ever just seen like an R and
B singer who is known for these silly, these these
songs that are sweet and nice, and then they go
to Rice Street.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
I see it all, see it all. So, whether it
be it the Atlanta Housewives, the Potomac Housewives, keep in
mind on hold on now, So you got to keep
in mind what ends up happening is if it happens
or you're accused of doing something bad in Fulton County,
the largest county in the state of Georgia, then you're
(47:58):
gonna come to Rice Street.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
You know when we're going to keep them anonymous. A
family member, I was at a family event and I
was like, mood for the county. They take good care
of their people. It's lower, lower property taxes in some places. No,
I don't want to go to Right Street. If something happens.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
It's not a training ground it is. It is not
where you want to train people. So no on the
job training, No on the job training. And keep in
mind though, so I was in law enforcement long before
Rice Street ran the city jail. And so if it
happens in Atlanta's Hollywood to the south, and so there's
a long list of superstars, both white and black that
(48:35):
have ventured in between the two doors. Right whether it
be two fifty four P Street Street and a C
D C or nine on one Rice Street. If it
happens bad in Fullding County, we'll see, we'll lead a
light on for you.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
What is like, how are y'all treating me at? How
a mea doing?
Speaker 4 (48:51):
Hey, look again, we treat everybody saying so again, she
has the ability to get some good attorneys, so I
expect her to happen. Probably I didn't say that. I
say that.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Okay, what is getting Marius still look like.
Speaker 4 (49:07):
A lot more than both of you and our Mats's hilarious. Yeah,
here is the truth.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
He gonna get you right though.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
Well again, he's wanted all over the world too. So
you you got to be in a position where you
can you can afford good representation work for those criminal
justice advocates you talk about. While on the surface they
look for somebody to blame, but if they really peel
back the onion of what I've been saying for five years,
they'll say, we're fighting for the same thing. We're fighting
(49:35):
to treat people in the more humane fashion. We're fighting
to get the number of people that we had a
jail feasibility study that shows how many beds we need,
but not just beds, how many medical beds and mental
health beds we need. Right now we have thirty four.
We need five hundred. We have to position ourselves to
treat people in our community better. And if people take
(49:57):
the time to listen, we're really singing from the same
hymnal and it's just how it gets goes across.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
Yeah, what does your dream right Street look like?
Speaker 4 (50:07):
Well, it's it's a reimagined Right Street. It is like,
reimagine the training facility that the Atlanta Police Department just
put together. They put together one of the best in
class facilities that there is. So when you talk about dream,
you talk about not just a dream, but the possibilities
that come with better technology, better medical care, better mental
(50:29):
health care, all of those things.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
I think Rice Street is also an entertainment thing. And
I'm so so tired of hearing people hear their favorite
R and B sing or whoever may be get locked
up and right Street Like, eh, so, what is your
message to those fans of those people that might get
locked up on one day and they're mad at shuit?
Speaker 4 (50:48):
Well, first, in the DA first of all, don't be
mad at me because you got caught right, That's the
first thing. Secondly, and this is interesting when we talk
about the generations that glorify Rice Street, Right, did my
time at Rich Street? You look at and I say
this to one of my favorite artists, making no bones
about it. I say this to Ti every time I
(51:09):
seen him.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Right.
Speaker 4 (51:10):
His one of his first hit songs was made while
he was locked up in Rice Street, right, And so yeah,
he got the street cred for it, for it and
I was not the share, but I tell I remind
him all the time he needs to go pay the
then share whatever royalties there were that came from from
him being locked up and creating his hit songs. So
for us, it's about an opportunity. You look at the
(51:32):
Jeffrey Williams, the young Thug trial, what took two years
to get through. Well again, people are still people, and
it's an opportunity for us to even leverage that relationship.
And so yes, we had had a pop up concert
on the courthouse step.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
I wanted to ask you about that. What is his
what is his community service looking like right now?
Speaker 4 (51:53):
His community his community service is off the charts, right,
But more importantly is the commitment. And this is what
I'm proud of. Some people will say, okay, we want
to have a popular concert, but he's not only stood
by that, he continues to really promote anti gangs, anti violence,
and share and that's one of the commitments, right, That's
(52:15):
one of the things is how do we how do
we engage in our community. Take this as a lessons
learned and then we get better for it. And he's
been very, very like.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
His music, share of you like young Thugs music.
Speaker 4 (52:25):
So I do have to sit back and absorb it, right,
But the amazing thing to me was to watch the
number one rap in the world have so many people
show up. You can pull up any time you want to.
Now you you little different.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
I appreciate you.
Speaker 4 (52:41):
You you made your bones right, You've earned that, and
you know you got my personal number. You know you come.
You can pull up any time you want.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (52:49):
Ultimately, his intentionality about giving back to the community, because
it's not just me. You'll find him talking to young
kids and schools. You'll find him. We got looked them
into the big brothers and big sisters. So they're going
to have a charity concert around that and really helping
our community more than what people actually believe.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
How long is he on that? How long is this share?
You get some time with Doug. How long do you
get your time with Doug share?
Speaker 4 (53:15):
Well, it's become a relationship that has benefited our community
more than anything. So I look at myself as a vessel, right,
how do we continue to send a message in One
of the first things he said before he gave that
concert was I want to see young people come through
the front of the courthouse as lawyers, as the da
as people that can help our community, and not the
(53:36):
way he spent two years. That's a strong message. That's
a message that a person has actually learned from where
they come from or where they came from. And so
as long as there's a community engagement focused there again,
him and Dominique Jones, you know him as little Baby, right,
they are still who were talking about, right, But again,
(54:00):
when it's time to show up for our community, whether
it be toys, right, come to shop with a sheriff.
On December thirteenth, my team will confirm my website.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
What's the website.
Speaker 4 (54:09):
It's still the Shaff's website.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
I want to make sure everyone's there who can be there.
Speaker 4 (54:14):
Absolutely make sure even if you don't register, we will
make sure we're taking care of kids.
Speaker 1 (54:19):
And so I think the center of the Criminal Justice series,
and this episode just really educate people. I heard from
an activist who hosts wrongful Convictions. I'm here for someone
who deals with this every day. It is such an
honor to have you on and I'm so thankful you
could share your perspective now.
Speaker 4 (54:35):
Thank you, thank you for having us, thank you for
always supporting the right thing. I look forward to bigger
and better things from you, right, and so just let
me know when we're cranking up your first campaign. And
you can be the youngest of all right, so I'm
excited about that.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
And folks, again, the call of action of this series
and this is episode in general, is that I want you,
folks to get involved with the Reform Alliance. I think
the backbone what I do is making sure our voices
are used for positive change, which is why I salute
Beyonce and Kim Kardashian for getting involved in the Reform Alliance.
(55:11):
I'm so, so so proud of everyone who uses their
voices on social media. I really really encourage you to
just get involved in the Reform Alliance. Get involved. And
what I will really stick out to me today is
I did not expect to learn this, but entertainers that
go to Rice Street are and B singers, like road
waves of whoever it may be reality TV stars, they
(55:31):
are all treated the same when you go to Rice Street,
which was so important to me when the sheriff spoke
about how the reality stars and the R and B
singers they're all treated equally. Let me know what you
think about this episode and our Criminal Justice series on
my social media at Noada Barrosso k n O W
A D E B A r A s O. Download
(55:52):
and show some love over on socials.
Now you know, and No de Barrosso is a production
of iHeartMedia and partnership with Recent Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
How are you today, I'm honestly great. I'm talking to you.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
I really appreciate it. Seriously, I say the exact same
thing I copy and paste back. So look, I'm excited
for this because I'm doing a criminal justice episode today
and this topic is new to me, so I would
love for you to walk me through it and guide
me and talk to me about it.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I have to say that this topic, in a weird way,
was entirely new to me at some point too. I
had written you a little note before we got the
chance to speak. But I am the daughter of an attorney.
My dad was a corporate attorney, but the law was
his religion, and so I was raised really respecting the law,
(00:52):
respecting the rule of law, respecting anybody who was involved
in any way, shape or form with enforcing the law.
And then as journalist, I started covering more and more
true crime stories and it was a huge eye opener
for me.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
But in terms of.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Wrongful convictions, I was astounded to know that they happened
at all, because I would assume that the system was
set up to protect the most vulnerable individuals, and it's not.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
And there are many layers to it. So where should
we start?
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, first things first, Ms Lauren, I want to introduce
you to something. Are you ready?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
So, I don't know if this is an Atlanta thing,
it's something like that. But if we speaking of wrongful
convictions and people that deserve their freedom or even a
second chance, we would say free. So and so it's hill,
it's backwards. If there is anyone in this world that
you could have free, whether they're in Joe wrongfully or
they just deserve a second shot, who would it be.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
There are two people actually very close to my heart.
One is a gentleman in Illinois, Christopher Vaughn, who was
convicted in twenty twelve for the murder of his wife
and three children. But I did an investigative podcast on
him and realize that he's innocent, that it was a
(02:18):
murder suicide. But it was one of those cases where
there's such outrage because of the nature of the crime.
You have a lot of pressure on law enforcement from
the media and from the public.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
And he.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Spent five years in prison as a pre trial detainee
before setting foot in the courtroom, and he did so
with the full presumption of guilt, not innocence, because he'd
already been tried in the media. And that's why it
continues to be one of the most polarizing cases I've covered.
But he has been in there for almost two decades
(02:55):
at this point, after having lost his entire family in
the most tragic way.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
So that is why.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Christopher Vaughn and what's his name, Christopher Vaughn von Vaughn Okay,
And the other one is a young mother also in
southern in Illinois. There are a lot of unfortunate, wrongful
convictions that take place in Illinois, but she is serving
fifty five years for the twenty twenty stabbing murder of
(03:23):
her eleven year old stepdaughter. She is the focus of
my most recent podcast, which is Murder on Songbird Road.
This case is like a tragedy onion. There's so many
layers to it. But one of the worst in addition
to the tragic death of this eleven year old girl,
who I do not believe Julie Beverly murdered, is the
(03:43):
fact that she found out Beverly that she was pregnant
a few weeks into her having been arrested, and they
took that baby from her within an hour without the
legal right to do it, and she to this day
has not held that son that she gave birth to
nearly five years ago. So I would say Julie Beverly
(04:07):
from Southern Illinois and Christopher Vaughn.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
That Christopher's story, Christopher of Illinois is so. It's because
at any time, right, false accusation or wrongful you know,
wrongfully being convicted can happen to anyone. Like tomorrow, you
can go to Starbucks they said, hey, you're under arrest.
There is nothing you can do about it, even if
it's before we move away from that. If there is
(04:34):
anything you could say, because this is something I want
to know as well, is if there is anything you
could say to someone that is afraid of wrongful conviction,
what would it be?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
I would quote a young man named Noah who says,
why should you care? That that is the driving motivation
for you to get people involved in politics. Well, social
justice and prison reform is the exact same thing, and
people should care because you're right, it could happen to them,
It could happen to somebody they love. And the crazy
(05:07):
thing is the system is set up in a way
to move at lightning speed when it decides you're guilty,
lightning speed, but it reverses like a frozen slug and
a freezer when it comes time to take responsibility for
(05:28):
having made a mistake.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
It is really difficult.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
On average, wrongfully convicted people serve on average sixteen years
in prison before they're released.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
We'll never get that time back.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Never and when they do get compensated for their lost time,
taxpayers are fitted.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
But we're going to talk about payouts for wrongful convictions.
So on, Christopher, are you in touch with these families, like,
for example, Christopher stories really in my mind here, I.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Would invite you to listen to murder in Illinois. I
just before I got on the phone with you, was
receiving text messages from his mother, Gail. So you know,
I do get very personally involved and attached.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
To these cases. It's difficult not to.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Injustice is one of those things for me that maybe
it's because I'm the middle kid of five.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
You know, I don't like it when things aren't fair.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
And once you see the injustice, particularly in terms of prison,
the need for prison reform and judicial reform, you can't
unsee it. And my heart breaks for these families because
often the only way out of this abyss is with money.
(06:48):
And I think it's Centurion, which is a great organization
that is dedicated to investigating and overturning wrongful convictions, which
was founded by a former Episcopalian priest. But they estimate
that it costs about eight hundred thousand dollars for defense
(07:09):
a wrongful conviction. Yeah, because you know, there's another really
great prison reform advocate named Joe Engle who is also
a man of clergy, but he has very famously said,
and it's always stuck with me, show me a man
on death row, and I'll show you somebody who couldn't
(07:30):
afford a good lawyer.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
So I will never move on from Chrispher's story. I'm
going to do my research.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Oh and you know what, follow me up with any questions.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
But it's really heartbreaking because there were five people in
the car that day, Christopher, his wife, and their three children,
and they're all victims because Kimberly was on two different medications,
one that enhanced suicidal ideation, but the other one that
(08:05):
just basically messed with her mind. So she was not
of her right mind. It's just again a heartbreaking story.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
You know how much Christopher has spent so much so
far on defense, did he meet the eight hundred thousand mark?
Speaker 2 (08:21):
His case is really interesting because this happened in two
thousand and seven, and in the five years that they
were leading up to trial, Chicago did away with the
death penalty, and that means that he was no longer
given money to defend himself. So at one point he
(08:41):
had the best possible criminal defense team, and that was
removed in two thy eleven. So he headed into trial
with public defender who had less than a year to
prepare a case that the state had been prepping now
(09:02):
for five years. So it was you know, you can
say David versus Goliath, this was Davy versus Godzilla. There
was no He didn't have a snowballs chance in an
oven at that point.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
And is there anyone, I want to talk about the
pardon system a little bit later. Is there anyone that
could use their executive power to parton Christopher?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, Pritzker, but this is the problem. So the governor
of Illinois could. But it's a polarizing case because there
are people who very much believe that if you're convicted
of a crime, particularly a family annihilator case, a politician
is not going to want to touch it if they
(09:48):
are running again for office because there's potentially political blowback.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
So JB. Pritzker right now could pardon Christopher.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Absolutely clemency, And so what would that process look like.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Let's say tomorrow, JB. Pritzker finds I was with Pritzker
last month.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
JB.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Pritzker finds in his heart to pardon Christopher. What does
that process look like?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
I think that.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Unfortunately, because he was incapable at the time of his
trial of defending himself.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Keep in mind, again.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
You're supposed to be given a speedy trial. He was
held for five years after having lost his entire family
in the most gruesome possible way, was never given any
kind of psychological counseling or help, and he had completely
shut down by the time when he was in trial.
(10:47):
He no longer cared to defend himself and so he
basically slept walk through that trial. It's as sad and
tragic as it possibly could be. And he was just
sitting rotting in prison until the podcast aired.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
And he has a tremendous amount of.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Support I support it because of you.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I appreciate that and invite anybody who's interested to do
their own research into it. The discovery is actually available online.
His mother has a support group on Facebook called Christopher
Vaughan is Innocent. And there are plenty of people who
now understand what they didn't understand in twenty twelve, which
(11:36):
is that wrongful convictions happen, that they're possible, and at
a much higher rate than we understand. It's estimated that
between two and ten percent of people in prison right
now in this country are innocent that they did not
convict the crimes.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
How do you collect data on that? Do you just
take their word for no?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
You can't, you know?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
And there are some credible organizations like the Innocence Project
that will reinvestigate the cases and use DNA.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Unfortunately, you know.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
It's not all lancy groups potentially, No.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I mean these are lawyers who dedicate their time and
go about reinvestigating.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
They do a great job.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
I'm working with the Illinois Innocence Project and the Exoneration Project,
both in Illinois on one case. They have been very supportive.
They're doing it. Sounds so cheesy to say God's work,
but it really is. I mean, you have people who
have entered a profession that many people associate with greed
(12:46):
and going to law school, so you can have a
ton of zeros at.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
The end of your paycheck. But these are people who are.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Taking on cases where these individuals often don't have the
resources for proper defense, and that's unfortunately why many of
them landed in the situation to begin with, because there
aren't enough qualified public defenders and they are overwhelmed with
(13:17):
their workloads and they don't have the capacity or the
bandwidth to properly defend people. So you have people taking
plea deals though they're factually innocent, because they don't want
to roll the die at what could be a much
longer sentence.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
And could we get for the cause a free Christopher
Tilla is backwards?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I mean absolutely, I welcome any support in terms of
trying to get Chris out, and the same way with
Julie Beverly murder on Songbird Road, I think is the
best work I've done. I joined forces with a criminal
defense attorney named Bob Matta who has a great podcast
(14:04):
called Defense Diaries, and he and I went down to
Mary in Illinois and reinvestigated the misinvestigation reinvestigated what likely
happened and also took a look at.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
How the triald played out.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
This is a woman of mixed race in a southern
Illinois town that still called a sundown town. And sundowntowns
are a place where people of color are allowed to
come in and work, but they're expected to leave by
an archaic term. So when I heard Mary in Illinois
(14:44):
referred to as a sundown town, I was shocked.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
But you go down.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
There and sure enough, this is a mixed race woman
who was accused of stabbing her eleven year old stepdaughter,
a child she had raised as her own for eight years,
was engaged to the father, who was white, and she
was tried in front of an all white jury. Actually,
(15:09):
the judge removed somebody who was there to support her
because the jury said that this woman's presence made them uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Just so happened. This woman's also mixed race.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
So does representation matter in the courtroom?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
One hundred percent? We're supposed to be tried by a
jury of our peers. Do you have to be the
same color to be impartial?
Speaker 3 (15:38):
No, you don't.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
But when there's a complete lack of diversity, in a
town that is known for its lack of diversity. I
mean the stuff that was posted in the local social
media about Julie Bevely.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
It was beyond the pale when.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I say that race played an important art in her
conviction on social media before she even set foot in
the courtroom.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Again, it was three years before her trial.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, And so I want to ask you about this
thing I saw I was watching. I was watching TV actually,
and usually I don't find it out about legislation through TV,
but this was a rare case. In Georgia. There was
this bill. I don't know if it passed, you might
know all about it. You that wrongful convictions would get
(16:30):
compensated for their time in prison, even though it didn't
make a lot, And so I was disappointed when a
lot of Democrats voted against it. And so I want
to I want to ask you, are you do you
know about this bill?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (16:43):
I think it's seventy five thousand.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
It is, yeah, a year, unless you're on death row,
in which case it's one hundred thousand for a wrongful condiction. Look,
I talked about not having a level playing field. Here's
the problem. The prosecution is allowed to what I would
call cheat. They can get a gel house snitch, an informant.
(17:08):
They can incentivize testimony. It's not so you can basically say, look,
you say this guy's guilty, you place them at the
scene of the crime and will give you a lesser
sentence or.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
You get out.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
There's incentivized testimony that's allowed far too often. You have
mishandling of evidence in wrongful convictions. You have people who
are tried where they know full well the prosecution that
it is an innocent person. There's no accountability for prosecutorial misconduct.
(17:48):
There is not real accountability for misconduct of law enforcement.
There's a really notorious former police detective in Chicago.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
It's only the Illinois with.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Chicago's notorious, unfortunately, but this guy, Detective Ronaldo Guervera, is
still collecting his pension. He's in his eighties. He's living
his best life now. But taxpayers have already paid out
one hundred and twelve million dollars to settle the wrongful
(18:27):
convictions he coused. Because he would just go into neighborhoods
and round up young brown and beij boys.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
I've never heard brown and beige before.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
And these kids had no chance.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, So I want to ask you, could I give
you a scenario and you tell me if this is
an actual real thing happening in the courtroom. A case
happens in two thy twenty two in the case will
go on long enough to pass election day. Here's why
election day will matter. Is there enough time for the
(19:07):
lawyers and the defense and whoever may be a conflict
of interest to get a district attorney fighting really really
hard against the case for a case or whatever it
may be, to get them out of office and get
their way. Is that something that actually happens. No.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I think that the problem is that the system trusts
that the system is working correctly.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
That's the problem.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
That the system is not evaluating itself in real time.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
And that's why it's really important.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
And Georgia just had one set up as well, that
there are conviction integrity units. In other words, the law
does not like once the court has made a decision,
it doesn't like to look.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
In the rear view mirror.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And that's what conviction integrity units do. Because unfortunate, as
is the case with you know, Detective Guerdera.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Was a police officer for twenty nine years.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
He was planting evidence, incentivizing testimony, flat out targeting people
who were innocent that he knew were innocent because he
didn't think it would ever catch up with him. He
didn't think that it matters because the system is more
interested in wins than justice. When you have prosecutors are
(20:32):
elected officials, you don't like that. I don't because they
run on their records and nobody wants to lose. So
the system is designed to go after wins, not justice.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
And now you know within de Brasso we'll be right back.
Do you think policy effects like, for example, it's not
a partisan issue because from what you're telling me, pritzgrah
has done close to nothing to help someone like Christopher
(21:10):
out of fear of losing reelection, which wouldn't happen in
Illinois if I was one of his advisors. That wouldn't
be something I put in front of him. Would you
say that policy has anything to do with these wrongful convictions?
Is there a failure in policy in some way? Is
because this isn't a partisan thing? Can any one politician
help this issue?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
You know the root of all evil.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Money and when you have a prison for profit system,
which we do, bodies become the commodities. So I would say,
you have to look at the amount of money that
we spend on incarceration. There is a reason why we
have the highest rate of incarceration of any you know,
(21:53):
civilized democracy. There is a reason why most states in
our country have more people in prison than other countries
have in their entirety of prison population. And you know,
I would say that conservative estimates place the amount of
money we spend in this country on prison for profit
(22:20):
eighty one billion to one hundred and eighty two billion.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Is this actually keeping anyone safe?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Key, No, that's that's the problem.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
You know, if you get a chance to watch it,
there is a great post that Texas Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett.
A huge fan of hers to begin with, but I
will take anything she says on this topic on prison reform,
on social justice even more to heart because she, after
(22:50):
she graduated from law school, was a public defender, so
she worked in the public defender's office, and she shared
this story about a young man who was seventeen who
was busted for stealing candy from his school commissary less
than twenty bucks and basically he was put on probation,
(23:13):
but his mother couldn't take the time off from work
to get him there, So they end up throwing the
book at this young man and he goes to prison
twenty dollars of stolen candy. So he didn't go into
prison as a criminal, but according to Jasmine, he came
(23:36):
out as one because while he was in prison, he
learned how to cook meth, and so he came out
not rehabilitated, but completely corrupted.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Speaking of like the you know, prison conditions a little bit,
would you say that bad prison conditions scare people from
committing crime? For example, like the theory the ideology in
a lot of district attorney's offices is that, Okay, kids
will see this how scary prison is and not want
to go. Or should prisons actually be safe in quality?
Speaker 3 (24:12):
What is the purpose of prison?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
It's rehabilitation, right, We're not investing in that, And so
I would say that the problem with being scared straight
doesn't really work. You know, when I did one of
my first podcasts, it was a very notorious wrongful conviction
in Oregon. This guy spent three decades in prison for
(24:38):
a murder he didn't commit. It's a crazy story. It
was the murder of the head of Corrections in Oregon,
and Frank Gable is now out of prison. They have
awarded him two million dollars, which is nothing for thirty
years of a lost life. They knew he was innocent
when they tried him. But even more insidious, the people
(25:04):
who did it have never been held to account. They've
never been held responsible for doing it. But while I
was investigating that story, a former state representative said to me,
if you ever want to see how corrupt a prison is,
drive by their employee parking lot and look at the
(25:25):
make of the cars.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
Let that sink in.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Because when you talk about people who come out of
prison addicted to drugs, where are the drugs coming from?
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Would you consider yourself a prison abolitionist.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
For our current system. Absolutely, there's got to be a
better way. I think that there are plenty of examples
of putting money into treatment programs, putting money into housing,
giving peace people the resources that they need so they
have easier choices to make in terms of how to
(26:07):
live a life and make a living than committing crimes.
But that has nothing to do with the wrongful convictions
that we're talking about. So if the incentive is to
keep prisons full and keep bodies in the cots, and
that is being incentivized by lobbyist dollars.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Take the money out of.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
It question speaking of money in en cash bail or
don't end cash bail, I say, en cash bail.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Tell me why, because you're people who are sitting in
prison not because they're guilty, but because they can't afford
to bail out.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I tried one time. I didn't experiment. I put on
Instagram stories and cash bail or not end cash bail
because there is a unique sense of on both sides.
There is criminal justice advocacy for those who say keep
the bail system. It's I think it's the theory is
they use no cash bill as a way to take
homes and stuff like that. Another side of it I
(27:08):
heard was and then on the end cash bail side
that richer people get to leave even if they did
worse or the same amount of crime. And so there's
kind of both sides of it. Would you say their
only quality to know cash bail is that people Is
there any comms to know cash bail?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
It's very complicated for all the reasons that you just stated. Yeah,
I honestly think that anything that is causing innocent people
to sit in prison needs to be reevaluated. And that's
why I would say to end cash bail.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, what does your justice repaired tool kit look like?
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Like?
Speaker 1 (27:52):
What is there a specific bill, a specific thing we
should abolish.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I would say, get away from the prison for profit. Basically,
get away from the system that we are currently bankrolling.
Take the money out of it, and then you can
put that money. And remember we were talking about a
tremendous amount of money.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
We were eighty one billion to one.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Hundred and eighty two billion. What if you were to
invest that into communities?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
I choked on that number, Ms Lauren.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
You know, invest it into housing, education. We know this
stuff works. We can look at other countries and see
how I think it's Norway that the prison population is plumbting.
They're closing down prisons because.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
They don't need them.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
You know, that's where we need to get to because
what we're doing obviously isn't working. You don't have two
million people sitting in prison. We talk about wrongful convictions.
The estimates are between two and ten percent, So between
forty six thousand and two hundred written forty fifty thousand people. Yeah,
(29:06):
innocent sitting in prison.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Any is there often a time where you look at
the current system because you have all sorts of criticism
of the current system and so to millions of Americans.
But do you ever see the system and see one
aspect of and say I'm thankful for the system. For example,
had there been a specific person that was charged that
would have been able to get out and do the
(29:29):
same crime. Again, do you ever look at this and say,
I'm thankful for this system.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Look, I think we all want to lead safe, healthy lives.
We want to live in communities that are safe and healthy,
and so, yeah, I think that there needs to be
some form of oversight. But maybe it is incentivising safety,
(29:56):
incentivizing health, incentivizing education. You know, when you put somebody
in prison for a crime that was caused by addiction,
you're not curing the addiction. Watch Jasmine Crockett because she
breaks it down in what she posted earlier this week.
(30:18):
She said the same as putting somebody in prison because
they have cancer, Yeah, and thinking that they're going to
be cured. The system is sick and it's not serving
the purpose of putting people back out into society as
better people and so that's the problem.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I watched in real time I think is the last
name I know. His first name is Marcellus Williams of
Saint Louis. I watched in real time just looking will get,
will he get pard and will get what's going to happen?
Have you ever watched something in real time and then
you saw a final decision you were like, no.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
There are many I watched how Frank Gable, who is
the case from Oregon, how hard he had to fight.
A lot of these wrongfully convicted people become jailhouse lawyers.
They actually learned the law not only to help themselves,
(31:19):
but end up helping multiple other inmates while they're in there,
because education becomes a really important weapon to fight these
wrongful convictions. So I remember my feeling ecstatic when finally
(31:40):
Frank Gable was released, but then in real time watching
him fight to be compensated for what was taken from
him was daunting. So many of these people after wrongful convictions.
You hear about the big settlements, right, but what you
(32:01):
don't hear about is so many of these people leave
prison with nothing more than the clothing.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
On their back.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
And this is after having been incarcerated for decades in
some cases, and so they walk back into worlds that
they don't recognize at not having the careers, and they're
left with nothing.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
And you actually have.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
No resources when you come out exonery. You don't qualify
for the same programs that help people who have served
time for crimes they did commit re integrate into society.
So it's insult on top of injury.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
I think, as we I'm going to be considered your timing.
You're super busy, is there? I want to have some
fun with you on a specific case. What is your
thoughts on there?
Speaker 3 (32:58):
I've not been following it.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Essentially a rapper or singer whatever. He has shot Meghan
is stallion the foot and he's kind of crying. I
didn't do anything.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Now remember this case, Well, Young Thug is an interesting thing. Yeah,
that's an interesting case as well. I don't feel that
I can comment with any kind of authority on the
gentleman who shot Megan the stallion in the foot, but
(33:28):
free Thug though, that's in addition to being an incredibly
talented artist. I do not believe that he was given
a fair shake.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Would you go to a Young Thug concert?
Speaker 3 (33:42):
I have been to a little Uzi for a concert.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I have not been to see Young Thug, but yeah,
I would love to.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, and he was in Rece Street on this Criminal
Justice episode, We're gonna have Sheriff Lebot to talk about
Rice Street. What is your thought once Street? He was
held there? And I also want to know your thoughts
on District Attorney Fanie Willis as well.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
I believe that Fannie Willis is an incredibly brilliant woman,
and she has made great strides in terms of dealing
with conviction integrity.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
I swore her in.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
I didn't know that. That's amazing. Yeah, I'm very impressed
with her.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
I was dismayed to see her pulled through the mud
for political reasons, and I think that she is very
dedicated and interested in getting things right in terms of
prison reform and just dealing with the judicial system in
(34:51):
the way in which it should be dealt With r Street,
I don't have many that's more local for you.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
I don't pay much attached to a law close up,
but Reich Street is something I think about, and we're
going to have him on to talk about it. Is
there anything that you wish that you would want me
to ask any politicians we have on my midterm series,
is there anything you would want me to ask them
and hold them accountable?
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah, I would ask them about how important the pursuit
of conviction integrity units are because you need them not
just on a state level, but in a county level
as well, because the system should always be.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Re calibrating.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
It should be looking in the rear view mirror as
it's driving forward. Otherwise you're not pursuing justice. Unfortunately, injustice
has happened. It's ingrained within the system, and the only
way to stop it happening in the future is to
own up to mistakes that have been made and change policies.
(35:59):
I don't think there should be immunity for prosecutors. I
don't think that there should be immunity for law enforcement.
I don't think that somebody like Guervera in Illinois should
be collecting a ninety one thousand dollars a year pension
when the taxpayers have had to pay well over one
(36:20):
hundred million dollars to clean up the mess he made
with his criminal activity as a police officer.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
His misconduct tell me about wrongful convictions your podcast that
everyone can and totally should go download right now.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
It is one of my favorite shows to work on.
I am a huge fan of Jason Flomm, who was
one of the founding board members of The Innocence Project,
and he's fascinating because you'd love to speak with him.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
He's a music guy.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
He signed Katy Perry Lowered, Yes he did, and what
he has done with his platform and his privilege is
so inspiring. If you follow him on social media, you
will see that, like me, he remains very involved in
the stories that he tells.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
I went to his wedding.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
He married Khalil Ali, who is Muhammad Ali's one of
his daughters, and they had a beautiful wedding.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
And we were there with.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Barry Shek, who was one of the founding members of
the Innocence Project, but also tons of exonneries. Rightfully realized
that the best way to share this information is through
sharing the stories of the people who have lived these
wrongful convictions, because again, going back to your thing, why
(37:49):
should people care? That's how you get young people involved
in politics, and that's how you get people involved in
social justice.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
There we go, and I'm excited for this Criminal Justice
episode and for those people who are out here watching
who are afraid to be wrongfully convicted, that are like
Auntie is really looking out for us. Why do you
care so strongly about criminal justice?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
I think it goes back to what I was saying
about my dad being an attorney. This was the law
was my father's religion above all else. He really believed,
and I grew up visiting him. He had a great
corner office at thirty Rock, which is an iconic building
in New York City. It's where they tape Saturday Night Live.
It's that big building with a statue of Atlas above
(38:34):
a skating rink. In his corner office, he had this
picture and it was a little meloderatic now in retrospect,
but it was an attorney in a lawyer's robe putting
his hand up and behind him was Lady Justice, blindfolded
with the scales of justice. And at his feet was
you know, man dressed in rags who was clinging to
(38:58):
the lawyer's leg were for help, for comfort, for support,
and the lawyer was the one who was the strong person.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
And that is what I believed the law was.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
I didn't believe that the law profited the most privileged.
I believed that it protected the.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Honestly the most vulnerable.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
And when you see that that's not the case, you
can't unsee it. And so for me, if it's not fair,
it shouldn't be allowed to continue.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, we're head into the holidays, and I want to add,
there's so many thousands of Americans who are unable to
spend the holidays with their family. What is giving you hope?
Speaker 2 (39:48):
I think raising the fact that the awareness that has
been raised about wrongful convictions. And again I give great
credit to the podcast Wrongful Conviction, which has I think
over five hundred episodes at this point. I mean, these
are all cases that people can listen to and really
(40:10):
understand why wrongful convictions happen. We know why they happen.
We just need to know how to stop it. And
what makes me most optimistic and hopeful for the future
and for people serving time who should not be serving time,
is the fact that people now understand. And when you
(40:31):
can raise awareness for something, you can drive attention to it,
and in an ideal world, you can get people involved.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
So I would say everybody out there.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Listening right now has an innocence project or an innocence
organization in their state, and they can get involved. There
are lots of stories, particularly of young people who have
dedicated their time and their effort to helping and can
(41:03):
really make a difference. So that makes me optimistic. We
know we have a problem. We just all have to
pull together to fix it.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
There we go. Thank you so much Lauren for joining.
I'm excited for this Criminal Justice episode.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Get Jasmine Crockett on.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Really she was on the stage as well.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Get her on because she is such my gosh an
inspiration I have.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
She makes me very.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Optimistic about the future as well. And thank you guys
so much for making the content that you do.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
You know you're so talented.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
No, thank you, I appreciate that. Hey, folks, So today
on now, you know we have sheriff labat the sheriff.
When you hear the sheriff's name, you think of the
guy who got Trump to do the mugshot. Just like
everyone else. You also think of Rice Street conditions. It's
not entirely the sheriff's fault. In fact, it's not at
all the sheriff's fault. We're gonna speak in depth about
(41:56):
that here on. Now. You know, our wrongful conviction segment
was so powerful and we hurt the activist perspective from Lauren,
and now I wanted to get into someone who's boots
on the ground. So on today's second segment of the
Criminal Justice episode, I wanted to speak to Sheriff Labat
(42:20):
first of all about entertainers going into Rice Street, such
as reality stars R and B, singers and rappers such
as Young Thug that we spoke in depth about. Actually,
so let's get right into our second segment, even stretched Sheriff,
It's a lot going on, isn't it. Now. The first
time we did one of these interviews was not in
the studio. We recorded it while we were eating and
(42:43):
so I was like, I want to get an opportunity
to have a formal conversation, and now we get to.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
Have it, don't we get to have it? And I
could not be more proud. Right we're sitting right here
in iHeart Studios where and I mentioned earlier where people
wish they could be appreciate it. And it's not the
DJ situation. It's a situation where we're informing our community
what that looks like. And so I'm extremely proud of you.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
I appreciate, Thank you. Cher. What is your message to
the court system that are facing wrongful convictions and wrongfully
convicting those that all you have to do is book
them and make sure they're safe. And that's that's what
you do.
Speaker 4 (43:18):
Well, we're in the middle of that, right, you're absolutely right.
So yes, we book people, but we also created an
immin advocacy unit. And what that unit is is they
go through day after day, charge after charge and resident
after resident to focus on what can we do better
and if they are getting the proper representation. And so
(43:39):
you can ask the public defender. There are a number of
times a week or a month, I'll call him because
somebody told me, well, we hadn't seen our public defender
in two months. Well most of us. Most of that's hyperbole.
They hadn't They they've been seen, they just maybe didn't
understand and what was going on. And so how do
we work with the DA? The public Defender's Solicitor General
(44:00):
keep damage and his team too.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
Alexander comes in there too, right.
Speaker 4 (44:05):
She does. She comes in Clerk, not Auntie Clerk. All right,
sure you heard that, So you need to come only
get on his podcast. But she is a vital part
of this community that allows us to get records on time,
make sure that they are accurate, and then process people
to the next space and what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, and so in this episode we have wrongful convictions hosts.
And what we spoke what we spoke about was cash
bell or no cash bell. Where are you on that
if you care to speak on that?
Speaker 4 (44:35):
As a share So I believe there's a space for
judges to make those decisions. We elect them for a reason.
And so whether judge says someone gets a cash bell,
we put that in there and their wielhouse to deal with.
I have watched some of the new laws dealing with
no cash bell really have our daily population rise. We
(44:57):
had gotten our daily population down to twenty three hundred,
down from thirty six hundred, and so now it is
slowly corrupt back up to nearly three thousand.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
People as a result of no cash bell.
Speaker 4 (45:08):
Right as a result right, and so that they are
where there are opportunities for us to meet in the
middle and get better at it. I think we have
to see.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
I appreciate that shirt because the activists don't know that statistic.
That's so power. I was sitting here like, oh, we
gotta get no cash bill, no cash biling. I didn't
make an official position, but I just learned something there
that's powerful.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
And the piece that where our legislators have gotten together,
and for instance, we would have senators and the like
House of representatives come on Father's Day on Mother's Day
and say I want to bail out one hundred people.
When they do that, well it can anymore. So they
change the statement. And so if they if you bail
out three people in a year's time, that fourth person,
(45:50):
now you can be charged.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
With the mister meaner And wait, what happened again?
Speaker 4 (45:54):
So let's say you can get all your sponsors all right,
and you come down there and Noah bails out three people.
When you get that fourth person to get ready to
be bailed out, you then can be charged with the crime.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
And so I know, I keeps saying, y'all, y'all, don't play.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
It's not us, it's not us. Keep it right. So
even the bail bond project was very it has been
very instrumental over the years of saying these people meet
certain standards, certain requirements, and they're safe to be back
on the street. Well, and even now judges don't sign
signature bonds. They have a judicial unsecured judicial release that
(46:31):
tracks who is being released and holds them a little
more accountable, but ultimately made it tougher for people to
get out of the facilities.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, what's your message to exoneries?
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Well, again, that's that's good representation. I'm a firm believer
in really good representation. You go back to Jeffrey Williams.
You're calling young thugs. But when you can afford Brian Steele, right,
that's a whole different conversation. I love Brian still and
make no bones about it, right that, and again, he
(47:05):
is the real life Harve respector I know you never
you never watched what was that?
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Suits? I don't know what harvespector?
Speaker 4 (47:12):
Okay, so go watch Brian's still, right, he's the real
life Harve respector, so go watch suits.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Do you have a spider shirt spider hoodie?
Speaker 4 (47:21):
I do not. I'll get us one to match.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
There we go. We're gonna do it. We're gonna do it.
And I think entertainment and Rice Street is so interlinked.
So have you ever just seen like an R and
B singer who is known for these silly, these these
songs that are sweet and nice, and then they go
to Rice Street.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
I see it all, see it all. So, whether it
be it the Atlanta Housewives, the Potomac Housewives, keep in
mind on hold on now, So you got to keep
in mind what ends up happening is if it happens
or you're accused of doing something bad in Fulton County,
the largest county in the state of Georgia, then you're
(47:58):
gonna come to Rice Street.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
You know when we're going to keep them anonymous. A
family member, I was at a family event and I
was like, mood for the county. They take good care
of their people. It's lower, lower property taxes in some places. No,
I don't want to go to Right Street. If something happens.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
It's not a training ground it is. It is not
where you want to train people. So no on the
job training, No on the job training. And keep in
mind though, so I was in law enforcement long before
Rice Street ran the city jail. And so if it
happens in Atlanta's Hollywood to the south, and so there's
a long list of superstars, both white and black that
(48:35):
have ventured in between the two doors. Right whether it
be two fifty four P Street Street and a C
D C or nine on one Rice Street. If it
happens bad in Fullding County, we'll see, we'll lead a
light on for you.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
What is like, how are y'all treating me at? How
a mea doing?
Speaker 4 (48:51):
Hey, look again, we treat everybody saying so again, she
has the ability to get some good attorneys, so I
expect her to happen. Probably I didn't say that. I
say that.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Okay, what is getting Marius still look like.
Speaker 4 (49:07):
A lot more than both of you and our Mats's hilarious. Yeah,
here is the truth.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
He gonna get you right though.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
Well again, he's wanted all over the world too. So
you you got to be in a position where you
can you can afford good representation work for those criminal
justice advocates you talk about. While on the surface they
look for somebody to blame, but if they really peel
back the onion of what I've been saying for five years,
they'll say, we're fighting for the same thing. We're fighting
(49:35):
to treat people in the more humane fashion. We're fighting
to get the number of people that we had a
jail feasibility study that shows how many beds we need,
but not just beds, how many medical beds and mental
health beds we need. Right now we have thirty four.
We need five hundred. We have to position ourselves to
treat people in our community better. And if people take
(49:57):
the time to listen, we're really singing from the same
hymnal and it's just how it gets goes across.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
Yeah, what does your dream right Street look like?
Speaker 4 (50:07):
Well, it's it's a reimagined Right Street. It is like,
reimagine the training facility that the Atlanta Police Department just
put together. They put together one of the best in
class facilities that there is. So when you talk about dream,
you talk about not just a dream, but the possibilities
that come with better technology, better medical care, better mental
(50:29):
health care, all of those things.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
I think Rice Street is also an entertainment thing. And
I'm so so tired of hearing people hear their favorite
R and B sing or whoever may be get locked
up and right Street Like, eh, so, what is your
message to those fans of those people that might get
locked up on one day and they're mad at shuit?
Speaker 4 (50:48):
Well, first, in the DA first of all, don't be
mad at me because you got caught right, That's the
first thing. Secondly, and this is interesting when we talk
about the generations that glorify Rice Street, Right, did my
time at Rich Street? You look at and I say
this to one of my favorite artists, making no bones
about it. I say this to Ti every time I
(51:09):
seen him.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Right.
Speaker 4 (51:10):
His one of his first hit songs was made while
he was locked up in Rice Street, right, And so yeah,
he got the street cred for it, for it and
I was not the share, but I tell I remind
him all the time he needs to go pay the
then share whatever royalties there were that came from from
him being locked up and creating his hit songs. So
for us, it's about an opportunity. You look at the
(51:32):
Jeffrey Williams, the young Thug trial, what took two years
to get through. Well again, people are still people, and
it's an opportunity for us to even leverage that relationship.
And so yes, we had had a pop up concert
on the courthouse step.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
I wanted to ask you about that. What is his
what is his community service looking like right now?
Speaker 4 (51:53):
His community his community service is off the charts, right,
But more importantly is the commitment. And this is what
I'm proud of. Some people will say, okay, we want
to have a popular concert, but he's not only stood
by that, he continues to really promote anti gangs, anti violence,
and share and that's one of the commitments, right, That's
(52:15):
one of the things is how do we how do
we engage in our community. Take this as a lessons
learned and then we get better for it. And he's
been very, very like.
Speaker 1 (52:23):
His music, share of you like young Thugs music.
Speaker 4 (52:25):
So I do have to sit back and absorb it, right,
But the amazing thing to me was to watch the
number one rap in the world have so many people
show up. You can pull up any time you want to.
Now you you little different.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
I appreciate you.
Speaker 4 (52:41):
You you made your bones right, You've earned that, and
you know you got my personal number. You know you come.
You can pull up any time you want.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (52:49):
Ultimately, his intentionality about giving back to the community, because
it's not just me. You'll find him talking to young
kids and schools. You'll find him. We got looked them
into the big brothers and big sisters. So they're going
to have a charity concert around that and really helping
our community more than what people actually believe.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
How long is he on that? How long is this share?
You get some time with Doug. How long do you
get your time with Doug share?
Speaker 4 (53:15):
Well, it's become a relationship that has benefited our community
more than anything. So I look at myself as a vessel, right,
how do we continue to send a message in One
of the first things he said before he gave that
concert was I want to see young people come through
the front of the courthouse as lawyers, as the da
as people that can help our community, and not the
(53:36):
way he spent two years. That's a strong message. That's
a message that a person has actually learned from where
they come from or where they came from. And so
as long as there's a community engagement focused there again,
him and Dominique Jones, you know him as little Baby, right,
they are still who were talking about, right, But again,
(54:00):
when it's time to show up for our community, whether
it be toys, right, come to shop with a sheriff.
On December thirteenth, my team will confirm my website.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
What's the website.
Speaker 4 (54:09):
It's still the Shaff's website.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
I want to make sure everyone's there who can be there.
Speaker 4 (54:14):
Absolutely make sure even if you don't register, we will
make sure we're taking care of kids.
Speaker 1 (54:19):
And so I think the center of the Criminal Justice series,
and this episode just really educate people. I heard from
an activist who hosts wrongful Convictions. I'm here for someone
who deals with this every day. It is such an
honor to have you on and I'm so thankful you
could share your perspective now.
Speaker 4 (54:35):
Thank you, thank you for having us, thank you for
always supporting the right thing. I look forward to bigger
and better things from you, right, and so just let
me know when we're cranking up your first campaign. And
you can be the youngest of all right, so I'm
excited about that.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
And folks, again, the call of action of this series
and this is episode in general, is that I want you,
folks to get involved with the Reform Alliance. I think
the backbone what I do is making sure our voices
are used for positive change, which is why I salute
Beyonce and Kim Kardashian for getting involved in the Reform Alliance.
(55:11):
I'm so, so so proud of everyone who uses their
voices on social media. I really really encourage you to
just get involved in the Reform Alliance. Get involved. And
what I will really stick out to me today is
I did not expect to learn this, but entertainers that
go to Rice Street are and B singers, like road
waves of whoever it may be reality TV stars, they
(55:31):
are all treated the same when you go to Rice Street,
which was so important to me when the sheriff spoke
about how the reality stars and the R and B
singers they're all treated equally. Let me know what you
think about this episode and our Criminal Justice series on
my social media at Noada Barrosso k n O W
A D E B A r A s O. Download
(55:52):
and show some love over on socials.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.