August 26, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode of Now You Know with Knowa de Baraso, Knowa sits down with Stacey Abrams to discuss her latest projects, including her children's book Stacey Speaks Up and her legal thriller Coded Justice. Stacey also shares insights from her time as Minority Leader in the Georgia House of Representatives, her love for Georgia, and the importance of SPLOST for local infrastructure. The conversation covers her views on AI, the impact of taxes, and her future political plans, offering an engaging and informative discussion about her ongoing efforts to drive positive change. This is a must-listen conversation packed with insights.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now you Know and No Deve Barrasso is a production
of iHeartMedia and partnership with Resent Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
All right, I'm no Dea Barasso.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Today on my iHeart podcast Now You Know, I talked
to Stacy Abrams and asked her if she would run
for governor of Georgia once again, and let me be clear,
she gave us an answer that she wouldn't typically give
on podcasts. We also talked about the state of Georgia,
how she feels about cutting the state income tax and
let me tell you that answer with spicy folks, and
she gave me her her words nonscripted on if she
(00:31):
will run in the midterms. O.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Noah, you look awesome as always.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thank you. How are you? I am well, that's so
good to hear.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You're the number one guests I wanted to have like forever,
so I so thank you for coming.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
It is my honor.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
How are you how? My first question really is how
have you been well?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
You know, other than watching the slow erosion of our democracy,
I've been good because because I know that there are
folks like you out there doing work, and I've been
able to stay in the fight. So as bad as
things may seem I'm pretty good because I know we
can win.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Thank you. I love you. What have you been up to?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Well, I adore you too, Noah. So I've been trying
to make you proud. I've been being a professional troublemaker.
So I have my own podcast, Assembly Required, Yes, with
Cricket Media. I have a sub stack Assembly Notes. I've
recently published a book, and since the last time I
saw You've got two books out. So my children's book
Stacey speaks up about how we help protect children, especially
(01:37):
hungry children, and then my new legal thriller, Coded Justice.
You know, I've just been annoying people and trying to
make the world better.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
It's amazing good trouble because you know where we're from,
exactly exactly. So I first met you at your campaign
event in twenty twenty two and you were second John
Asoff I met you. I met him impromptu, and then
I met you, and I was looking for you everywhere.
I was just following you around trying to see where
(02:07):
you were, and that's how I got started. And I
greatly appreciate you. So that day was absolutely insane.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Noah, you have always been someone who, despite I would say,
because of age, You've been fearless, you've been willing to
ask tough questions. You are preternaturally confident and gifted, and
so it was a delight to meet you, and it's
been a treat of mine to watch you continue to
grow and hold power accountable. So I'm just I'm honored
(02:36):
to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Thank you, and I'm so, so so ready. So tell
me this you brought up. Stacy Speaks Up. I love
Stacy speaks Up. So tell me about that first project
I want to hear about that. Tell me about that book.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
So Stacy Speaks Up was the third book in my
Stacy series. The first one, Stacy's Extraordinary Words, which talks
about it was a book about perseverance, that sometimes you
try things you don't win. I've had a little big
experience with that. The second one was Stacy's Remarkable Books,
which really focused on the importance of diversity in how
(03:10):
we understand each other and how we engage. But for
the third one, Stacy Speaks Up, I wanted to talk
about the intersection of empathy and advocacy. When you're in
the midst of a time of tumult like we are,
it's easy to forget that young people need not just information,
but they need a framework for how to respond. We
(03:30):
sometimes dismiss young people and think they're just recipients of
our bad actions, and that I mean you are perfect example.
They are also absolute instruments for good and they can
make things better with or without adults. And so Stacy
Speaks Up is about young Stacy who sees a child
in her school who goes hungry, and when the adults
aren't ready to do something about it, she and her
(03:52):
friends organize. They advocate, and they work to solve the
problem and bring their adults along with them.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
And on something less friendly, what about Coded Justice? Tell
me about that book.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
So Coded Justice is a book that I wrote because
I want us to understand AI, not just use it.
And a lot of us were comfortable with our prompts
for chat GPT or if you don't realize you use AI,
if you've ever used Siri or Alexa, or if you
like your car the fact that it can park itself,
that's all AI. It's all artificial intelligence. But what I
(04:26):
want us to do is to have a better grasp
on what AI means, not just today, but what it
means in ten years. And so I do my best
to tell stories that bring people in, give them the
information they need, and let them have fun and get
excited while they're doing it, or be terrified in this case.
And so Coded Justice is the story of my heroin
(04:48):
Avery Keane. She's a young lawyer who is now working
at a law firm. She is brought onto a tech
firm that is doing good work. They've gotten AI technology
to help improve healthcare for veterans, and to do that,
they've got to look at DEI. You cannot serve a
diverse population like veterans without understanding what diversity, equity and
(05:09):
inclusion mean as a way to build and train the model.
But as she gets deeper inside, she learns that there
is an engineer who has died, and that there's some
nefarious things happening. There's some veterans getting sick, and the
question is who or what is killing people off. And
so it's really designed to be a thriller that brings
(05:31):
us inside the tech world, brings us inside AI. But
when you leave, I want you to be not afraid
of AI, but I want you to believe that you
have the right to understand it. But more importantly, that
we've got to be cautious because AI is a tool.
It can be used to improve our lives or can
be used as a weapon, and it's up to us
(05:51):
to decide what that looks like by holding our leaders
accountable and by holding the creators of AI accountable.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, and what makes you stay?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Abrams want to make a book about AI, Like, how
do you feel about AI in general?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Why? AI?
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Well, it actually started because of my niece. My teenage
niece lived with me for four years and I remember
the first time she used chat GPT. I thought she
was cheating. I'm like why, and she said, no, I was.
It's part of the assignment. I have to use it.
I used to have to go look up things in
the library and use microfiche, which you would never recognize
(06:25):
if you saw it. But for me, it was a
question of she has this technology that I not only
don't understand, it's a technology that she's going to be
so comfortable with and half of the population of this
planet may not know what it means. And so it's
one of those moments where her youth really sparked my
you know, both my curiosity but also my competition. I
(06:49):
don't like not knowing things that she knows. So having
teenagers know more than you is a dangerous thing. So
a part of the reason I wrote the book was
so I had an excuse to learn as much about
AI as I.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, and do you ever like ask chat ut about
yourself sometimes, like what do you think about Stacy a Razibli?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, what do you say?
Speaker 3 (07:08):
I have not done that actually because I'm afraid of
what it might tell me.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
So fun, But would you say, out of those two
books we just discussed, which one do you think you
like more? To say a bluntly, which book do you
like more?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
See, I don't actually like one better than the other,
because they're very different audiences but with similar intent. You
and I met because I was running for office. I
run for office, I serve in public policy. I create companies.
I tell stories because we can't have a vision of
what we want if we don't tell ourselves a story
(07:42):
about what it means. And so, if I want children
to believe in their power, and I want I want
hunger to no longer be a conversation we have about kids,
I'm going to tell the story of Stacy speaks up.
If I want the adults who nearly let a moratorium
for ten years, say that we can't regulate AI. If
we want adults to make sure that we don't let
(08:05):
this technology run us instead of us running the technology,
then I needed to be able to tell them a story.
So for me, it's a question of who's the audience
I'm trying to speak to and which voice do I
get to use. It's a very different voice writing a
kid's book than writing a legal thriller. But for me,
both voices live in my head and I'm glad they
get to talk to people.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
We went from PB Andj's for Free to chagyb Tea
Might Kill You.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
It's great, there you go. I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
And we talk a little bit about DEI during that
Code of Justice book, What does it mean to you?
Speaker 2 (08:32):
What does do I mean to you?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
So one of the other pieces that I've been working on,
you ask what I've been doing. I started a set
of organizations called American Pride Rises Network. The sole purpose
is to protect, defend, and expand DEIDI gets dismissed, often
as a failed version of affirmative action, or we say
it's something boring that you do in HR and the
(08:55):
most cynical people use it as an insult. But are
values diversity meaning all people, equity meaning fair access to opportunity,
Inclusion meaning respecting others even if they're different than yourself.
That's how we built this country. Those are democratic values.
And anytime someone tells me they oppose DEI, I want
(09:18):
to know which value do you oppose? Are you upset
about diversity? Are you afraid of equity? Are you terrified
of inclusion? Because to me, it sounds like what you
want is the freedom to discriminate. And so I believe
that we can't protect our democracy if we don't protect
all of the people who are served by DEI. And
that means not just people of color, but that means immigrants,
(09:39):
it means the disabled. In fact, they've spent this past
few weeks working with disability communities because they are protected
by DEI. It's about gender and sexual identity. All of
those are issues that DEI not only protects but defends.
And if we want to defend democracy, we have to
defend DEI.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
So what other than that organization you talk about, if
you'd like to expand on that, what have you been
doing around DEI advocacy wise.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
So American Pride rises is three different organizations, so there's
Defending American Values Coalition. We provide talking points and toolkits,
Know your Rights, We help people understand what DEI is
and what it isn't. But more importantly, we respond to
the attack that are lies. The President of the United
States does not have the authority to undo DEI with
(10:30):
an executive order. It's just not true. But it's hard
for people to believe that. So we built an AI
chat bot. It's called a Diva, So if you go
to aprnetwork dot org, you can ask it questions about DEI,
find out what's legal, what's not, what does DEI mean,
what doesn't it mean. We have a second organization called
Deliver the American Dream. I was just in Boston for
(10:51):
convening of state legislators because we need to protect against
the attempt to, for example, as you know, banning books.
That's the way that they are trying to dismantle DEI.
So let's make sure our state legislators are fighting to
keep our books in the schools and keep our history honest.
Let's think about healthcare and housing. How do we protect community.
(11:11):
So Dad does the work of talking to state legislators
and then there's a third group called freedom Economy, and
we work with investors, the people spending the money. We
saw what happened to Target when Target said it didn't
believe in DEI anymore. So do you want to be
a Target or do you want to be a costco?
And we're trying to help make certain that folks make
the right choice. So you want shop and at Target
at all, I do not stop at Target.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Nope. Okay, so even as of now, So like let's
say you just really need something so bad, she's gonna
go somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
You have too. I've often talked about how boycotts work.
Boycotts are a way to express your value system, and
it's a personal choice. And so for some deciding not
to shop at Target is a way to express personal choice.
Not everyone can afford to make those decisions. Sometimes, if
you're in if that's the only shop that's near you,
you got to make different decisions. So I don't judge
(12:02):
people based on my tactical decisions, but I do appreciate
how important it is that we signal our values with
our dollars, because when we spend our money and say
don't do what I don't like, but take my dollars anyway.
We're giving mixed messages. However, and again I'm going to
say this very plainly. Not everyone can afford to make
(12:25):
the same choices. And that's why I do all of
the work I do, because ultimately I want people to
have choice. I want them to have free will, and
if they choose to shop at Target, that's great. If
you decide to do it, make sure you give money
to a DEI organization. If you can't make the decision
to use that tactic, make sure you're doing something else
to show your solidarity.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Because we're a pro choice around everywhere everything. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
It makes me so sad hearing that you're not with
Target anymore. I boy toott it to, by the way,
but it makes me sad because I remember that amazing
video you did on your TikTok where you met people
at the Target, and I was like, I love.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I do know. And the thing is, you know, Target
was a good company, and hopefully they are learning their
lesson because that's the other reality. And I appreciate you
referencing that. It was so much fun being in that
because that's where people were and it was why It
was so jarring to so many people when Target did
what it did, because Target didn't just say we like you.
Target said we are going to put our money where
(13:22):
our mouths are and we value you. You cannot change
your mission without having an impact. And so if Target
had never done that, people would have been like, Okay, yeah,
we didn't expect anything different. But you can't tell people
you're going to be You cannot be a hypocrite, and
that hypocrisy means they're going to be consequences. But people
(13:43):
can also correct. I'm listening. I want to see companies
that have made bad decisions about DEI. My responsibility is
to help them make better decisions, and when they make
those better decisions, to celebrate them as much as we
were willing to vilify them. If you make the wrong choice,
you should be held accountable, and if you make the
right choice, you should be supported. And our responsibility is
(14:05):
to make sure we're thinking about the whole spectrum of behavior.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
And so me and Sacy Abras are not going to
be a Target.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
It's fine, but no, where are we going?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Costco?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
There we go? We're going to Costco?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
There we go? I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Well, you're listening to Now You Know with Noted Braso,
where we're about to take a short break and we'll
come back to our conversation.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
With Leader Abrams.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I heard you speak a little bit about this on
your amazing podcast, Assembly Required. And as much as I
love falling asleep listening to podcasts, I can't fall asleep
listening to that because you say so much real stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
So tell me about Assembly Required.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
So Assembly Required is a podcast that I launched last year,
and the whole point is to take things that feel
too big and too complicated and break them down, make
sure we understand what we're afraid of, and then give
us tools for how we navigate it. The very first
episode I did with my niece with faith, and it
was about the electoral College. You can't fix the electoral
(15:07):
college unless we change the constitution. But the first job
is to understand what it is. And then the second
job is to know what can we do If we
can't solve the big thing, what are the little things,
the medium sized things we can do. And so I
try to take topics that are big and complicated and
make them accessible, help us tell a story about what
it means. But then at the end of every episode.
(15:28):
As you know, I give people homework. What can you do?
How do you be curious? How do you solve problems?
And how do you do good? Part of what they're
trying to do to us is to convince us that
we can't do anything about what's happening. I don't believe it,
You don't believe it. And so our job is to
tell through our podcast, yours and mine, to tell people
what they can do to make the world better.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I'm going to shoo a very long shot. Can I
please be on Assembly Require?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yes you can. We will make it happen. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Absolutely, Thank you so so much, Thank you so much.
And so I love Assembly Required bottles your experience and
the experience of your guests as well. But during your
time as Minority leader, what part of that work has
made Assembly Required and coded justice and everything that we're
doing right now?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
So when I was minority leader, although Republicans forget it now,
they actually used to like me. They didn't they didn't
necessarily like my politics, but they liked my approach, which
was I listened to everything, I read everything. I made
it a point to understand the belief systems of those
who did not share my beliefs, and I worked with
(16:35):
people to try to solve problems. That was my mission,
So I was curious. I tried to solve problems, and
I always tried to do good. I think they got
a little annoyed when it turned into winning elections. But
as minority leader, my job was to help my colleagues,
both the ones in my caucus Democrats, but also a
lot of times working with Republicans so they understood what
(16:56):
they were doing with the laws they were passing. I
had a very good relationship with the Speaker of the
House at a good relationship with Governor Nathan Deal. It
was not because we were aligned on everything or because
we agreed about everything, but we looked for places where
we could understand and work together. We can want the
same outcome, but not for the same reason, and too
often we think we have to believe the same thing
(17:18):
and want it for the same reason. I don't care
for me, it is my beliefs are mine. But if
I can get your behavior to align with the outcomes
that I need, that's what we have to do. And
so as simply required is a version of that. Let
me make sure you may not believe what I believe
at the end, but you're gonna understand it, and you're
gonna know what we're trying to get to, and you're
going to have faith that if you do the work,
(17:38):
we can get there.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Amazing, And I think as as leader that you were
a minority leader. Now you're leading the minorities. You're helping
us out, we're helping DEI were solving the things. I'm serious,
I think it means a great deal. So as minority leader,
that makes you the most qualified person for the office
you ran for. You're my favorite person on earth.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
So I'm just gonna ask you, Oh, you're so kind.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I mean it too.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Will I say, well, we run again for governor in
twenty twenty six, says I'm going to be there with
you if you do, and you can be so real
about it with.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Me, I'm going to be incredibly real. I have not
made a decision because that's not my focus right now.
You and I both know that before we get to
twenty twenty six, we've got to survive twenty twenty five.
And public office is one of the tools that I
use to do work. But I also have podcasts, I
raise money for organizations, I set up companies, I write books.
(18:31):
I am not focused on that yet, because for now,
we have to remind Americans and Georgians that we are
entitled to so much more than what we are seeing.
We are entitled to a government that works for us.
We are entitled to democracy that delivers for us. So
if I were going to whisper the truth to anybody,
(18:53):
it would be you. I know you wouldn't tell anyone.
But it's truly that I have not made any decisions
yet because as I am really so focused on the
work that we have to do now around making sure
that we are protecting the democracy we have for the
people who need it most.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yes, I'm holding my endorsement. I promise I'm holding it.
It's reserved, it's yours, and.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I'm so oh, you're so kind.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
And so I wonder what does the following counties in
Georgia mean to you? Every time I'm in like a
place that's not metro Atlanta, I think Stacy Abrams has
probably been here. Oh, I miss Stacy Abrams. So what
does Fulton County.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Mean to you?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Fulton County begins with Atlanta, but it also includes Alpharetta.
So I spent a lot of time going to North Georgia. Yeah,
which mean you spend a lot of time in the
car in Fulton County.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, I love it. It reminds me. I'm going to
ask you about this after this. The cab, what does
the cab meaning?
Speaker 3 (19:47):
The cab is where I first learned about Georgia. So
my parents moved us here from Mississippi. We lived in Decatur.
I went to Avondel High School. When I moved back,
I moved back to Deacab County. I've only lived in
Fulton County when I was at Spelman College. Otherwise I've
always lived in Decap County.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Oh, you loved the cab.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Okay, I loved the cab.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Amazing.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Gwett The cab decide Man, the cab decide Gwinnett. Gwenette
is the largest county that is not a state. I
know it's not technically so, but if you go to Gwenette,
you are going to see the entire microcosm of what
Georgia is. You can meet every community, you can see
every class difference, you can hear every language. But it's
(20:31):
also emblematic of just how fantastic the state could be
if we fully leverage all of our resources in all
of our people.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, I love this. And last one Forsyth foresythe.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
County gets a bad rap for a good reason. Its
history is not good bad pr You know, when I
became minority leader, one of my jobs was to go
to places where we didn't have Democrats. And I got
an invitation to go to Forsyth County, and I was
not necessarily excited because it was for an evening event,
and I've not heard great things, but there is no
(21:05):
place that shows you what's possible in places where people
should believe that everything is dead. The energy in Forsyth,
the willingness to push back against stereotype and narrative and
to shape their sense of what's possible, is infectious. And
then I got a chance to go to Forsyth High
School and meet students there, and again to go to
(21:27):
the high school in Forsyth County, seeing young people in
Forsyth who so look different than they did when I
was a student in Decab County. It's proof of the
evolution and the continued growth of our state.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, and I'm gonna give you one more because I've
forgotten real folk.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
I'm like, come on, now Muskogee, Muscogie County home to
Columbus Georgia, home to Fort Benning, but also home to
some really good barbecue and to the rafting park that
they've got there.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
They don't play by that part they look.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
I grew up on the Gulf of mex I will
tell you my first experience with Lake Lanier was not
the best because I'd come from a golf I will
say that what they promise in the water park they deliver.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
You are from the Gulf of Mexico.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I am indeed not with Mexico, the Gulf of Anything.
We don't do propaganda on this show.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Gulf of Mexico, Gulf of Mexico, and lastly Muscogee, I'm
not Miscogy.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Chatham Chatham County, home of Savannah, but also it is
the home of smaller communities like Garden City, places where
we don't necessarily think about how important they are to
our economy. But these are the places that help make
Chatham and Savannah work. And I believe what I love
about Muscogee, what I love about Chatham are the counties
(22:44):
that are nearby. Looking at Talbot County, looking over at
Peach County, Peach County, So country going down to Sumter
and heading over to going up to Tulliver County. When
you're heading towards Sparta, Georgia and Hancock County, we have
an extraordinary state. One hundred and fifty nine counties. The
counties that you listed are those anchor counties. But we've
(23:05):
got to remember that they are anchors. But we need
everybody else in the boat.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
They're going to kill me. Cobb Blast, that's it.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Cob Cobb County. Of course, Cobb County, which has been
navigating some difficulty with a school board that doesn't want
to teach the students it has because the politics have changed,
but they don't want to change with the politics. But
I'm so proud of the leadership of Cobb County, the
fact that Cobb refuses to be bound by its past
(23:32):
and is absolutely driving towards a future that works for
everyone in that county.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, and it's becoming more and more progressive. I'm loving it.
And we spoke about your podcast to Stay Issues. How
are you feeling about Sploss? I love Sploss so much.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Okay, So, no, I think you know this because I
believe you came to every event I ever did. But
I'm a tax attorney by training. Part of what I
used to do at the capital. Going back to your
question about being minority leader, I was able to work
with Democrats and Republicans because I know how tax policy works.
In a state that relies on sales taxes and constrains
(24:09):
what government can do, local governments don't have as much
authority over how much money they can raise to meet
the problems that they have. I used to work for
the City of Atlanta. That was a huge issue. Well,
sploss are one of the few tools made available. They're
special purpose local option sales tax. Basically, the government says
to the people, if you are willing to tax yourself,
here's the thing that we can have splossed around. Transportation
(24:32):
are incredibly important, especially the expansion of public transit, because
if we do not agree to invest together, we don't
get what we need. And a SPLOSS is a way
for people to say we are willing to invest together
because this special purpose is so meaningful to us that
we are willing to say, charge me a little bit
more now so that the next generation can have what
(24:53):
they need.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
I love it because I can't pay real tax, so
I like and I think there's no one better to
tell me this, But Leader Abrams, am I helping? When
they say, hey, do you want to eat this food
at home?
Speaker 2 (25:04):
We already have?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Or do you want to go out? And I say
out because I want to pay those flas dollars? Am
I helping?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
You?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Are?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
You are?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
And here's the thing, and I love the way that
you say it helping. We have been bamboozled by those
who argue that taxes are some form of oppression. Now,
there are different types of taxes. There are progressive taxes
where you pay according to your capacity. There are regressive
taxes where we charge the poorest more and the wealthiest
get away with more. And then you have neutral taxes,
(25:31):
and those are the taxes where it doesn't really matter.
You buy what you can afford, and there's a bit
of neutrality to taxes. But ultimately, in a civilized society,
taxes are how we decide what we're willing to invest in.
Are we willing to invest in children not going hunger?
If we are, we pay income taxes, in sales taxes.
Do we want children to be educated? And do we
(25:52):
want to make certain that we have roads and bridges?
If so, we pay properties separating taxes. If you want
to see your schools make stranger, your community's made safer
than you pay sploss because floss are dedicated to certain
purposes and the government has to tell you what the
purpose is. Taxes are not good or bad. The uses
(26:12):
are the question. The amount is the conversation. But a
tax is a tool, just like AI. A tax is
a tool. A tool can be used to build something
for you or destroy something. It's up to us to
decide which one it is. And we decide that by voting,
and then by staying engaged. And knowah, you are the
proof that if you stay engaged, you can make taxes,
(26:34):
but you can also make government do better by you.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah, and there's an assembly required to that. So it's
like really important, Exactly, we got to hit a quick break,
So don't go anywhere you're listening to now, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
And there's a debate.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
There's kind of a debate going on should they cut
the state income tax?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
So no, so let's be really clear. I thought that
battle actually during my time in the legislature. Really, this
notion that you eliminate an income tax is fool's gold
because what they're not saying is let's stop doing what
we do. And let's be clear, Georgia, in terms of
how much it spends per capita, we are not in
(27:19):
the top echelon of states in terms of our investment
in our people. But the amount of money we have
comes from three types of taxes sales tax, property tax,
and income tax. Well, the state of Georgia no longer
has a statewide property tax. We eliminated that when I
was during my time in the legislature, so now we're
down to two, the income tax and the sales tax.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
If you eliminate a tax like the income tax, which
is considered a progressive tax, the more money you make,
the more you pay. The less money you make, the
less you pay, which makes sense because if you have less,
you can afford less. Sales tax is regressive. A loaf
of bread bread doesn't work because Georgia doesn't tax food.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, that's all right, groceries.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
But when you have to buy a card, a Christmas card,
the cost of the Christmas card does not inquire how
much money you made that year, so the card costs
the same amount. A regressive tax says that even if
you make less than I do, if you need the
same thing that I do, you're going to pay a
higher proportion of your income to get it. That's called
(28:24):
regressive and that's largely frowned upon by economists because when
you have too many regressive taxes, the poorest people in
your community, the middle class, in the lower middle class,
they actually have less money to spend, and the wealthy
get even more. So what is being argued for is,
let's get rid of the progressive tax, not politically progressive,
but the tax that helps us guarantee that we get
(28:46):
what we need, and let's put all the burden on
the people who have the least amount of control over
their income. It is a dumb idea because what we
are saying is that we are going to put a
sales tax on everything. Now, what they're going to come
back with is Texas and Florida in Tennessee and Texas
has oil and Florida has Disney. Georgia is not Texas.
We are not Florida. And more importantly, the stability of Georgia.
(29:09):
Irrespective of who's been in charge, we've had a pretty
stable economy because every party, Democrat or Republican, we've always
understood that our stability rested on our moderate approach to
what we do. The minute we decide we're going to
chase fool's gold by eliminating a stable source of revenue
hoping that poor people are suddenly going to make more money.
(29:32):
That's magic or voodoo, and that is not the kind
of economics we need in State of Georgia.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I'm so glad like you talked about that, because, like
I was scared to ask you, because I really want
a golf cart, and if they cut the state income tax.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
I might get a golf cart. So no, I'll I'll
just do it in other way.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
It's gonna be great. But you taught me a lot.
And I think you wake up an issue that goes
back to your experience as minority leader, and you talk
about this on Assembly Acquired. Why do you care so
much about Georgia? You could easily move to DC at
California or somewhere else with no.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
State income text too, maybe Tennessee, somewhere else, But you
could have been anywhere. Why do you love Georgia so much?
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Because Georgia is proof of what is possible, but it's
also an example of how much more we have that
we can do I believe people should have the opportunity
to thrive. I grew up in Mississippi. I came of
age in Georgia. Georgia has good bones. It has all
(30:34):
of the facets that we should want to see in
an effective government in effective communities. But because Republicans refuse
to expand Medicaid, we have hundreds of thousands of people
who get sick who don't need to because it refuses
to accept resources. We have thousands of children who go
hungry who don't need to because we will not expand medicaid.
(30:57):
We have veterans in this state who can't get the
support they need, but we could afford it. And so
for me, Georgia is a proof point. It is a
diverse state that has access to equity if we're willing
to use it, and that can be the most inclusive
place without changing the character of who we are. We
are good people who want people to be able to succeed.
(31:20):
But that means we've got to think about all of
the people in the state, and we've got to do
the work for everyone in the state. But more importantly,
I'm a daughter of the South. I grew up in Mississippi,
came of age in Georgia. I've been through Alabama because
I can't get to either place without it. I lived
in Texas for a while, i went north. I'm a
daughter of the South, and Georgia is where I plant
at my feet and plant at my heart and they're
(31:40):
not getting rid of me that easily.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And why is winning the state of Georgia is so
important for Democrats Because Georgia is reflective of the future
of this country seventeen years. This is a country that's
going to be a majority minority when in about seventeen years. Wow, yeah,
your generation is the most diverse generation in American history.
And because of the diversity of your generation, because you're
(32:03):
Gen Alpha, correct, yes, so Gen alpha, Gen Z and
younger millennials, those three cohorts when Gen Alpha can vote,
because I know, when you get to vote and start
running for office, you know, all bets are off for
the rest of us.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
But if those populations they outnumber the other generations, but
they're also the most diverse generations, which means that if
we want to see what we can be, if we
want to truly leverage the human capacity, Georgia is where
we learn what that looks like because Georgia right now
(32:39):
is one of the most diverse states in the nation.
We have burgeoning populations that are Asian American, Latino, black, white,
Native American. We look like America. We have the economic
capacity to show America what good policy looks like when
it serves everyone. And we have the history of not
(32:59):
all the Civil Rights movement, but the Civil War, so
we know what it looks like when we use our
power against our people as they did in the Civil War,
and what it looks like when we use our power
to serve our people like we did in Civil Rights.
I want Georgia to show not just democrats, but to
show America how much more we can do with who
we are.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
And to wrap it up, by the way, I was
really playing close attention. I was just writing about how
much I love you, So I was doing something. So
I was pretty busy. So you mentioned as we wrap up,
you mentioned something really interesting. Georgia is going to be
majority minority at some point.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Oh yeah, in the next three to five years. So
demographic map said that it should be happening between twenty
twenty five to twenty twenty seven. If you look at
the demography of Georgia majority minority means that no one
racial group has a majority of the population. The white
population in Georgia compared to the rising number of people
of color means that we are shifting. And so yes, demographically,
(33:59):
Georgia between now in twenty twenty seven twenty eight is
going to be a majority of minority state.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
You know what that means, Leader Abrams, I do not
tell me. We haven't a DA party.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Indeed, indeed, and as we wrap up, as we wrap up,
we're gonna do our short civic test. Okay, who is
the youngest member of Congress ever? I'm assuming Maxwell Frost, Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yes, yes, indeed.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
And what then state representative got arrested at the Georgia
State Capitol.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
That would be either you're either talking about Alicia Thomas
Morgan or you were talking about Nikima williams'.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
S Nakima Williams. That's right, that's right. Oh yeah, you're
all upon Georgia. I forgot. This is this yours, This
is yours.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Marjorie Taylor Green lives in what part of Georgia?
Speaker 3 (34:52):
She lives in North Georgia.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
She lives in North Georgia. And we spoke about this
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
What part of Georgia has a scary representation due to
a certain situation with Oprah.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Okay, now again, I know what you're trying to do about. Look,
I'm gonna rep for Forsythe for a second because lots
of places. I'm from Mississippi. We have an entire uber
of movie about mistakes that we've made. But we also
Mississippi is a state where so much as possible and
so much good comes out. We gave you, guys, bb King,
So forsythe County made mistakes and Oprah did document it.
(35:28):
But I've been to Forsythe recently and they're good people.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I'm not going to Mississippi.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
I'm not going to Forsythe And that movie we talked
about is not so sweet and it's not Mississippi, Massala,
So we know what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
No, no, no, okay, see, I'm gonna make you come
and visit. I was actually down in Mississippi helping a
friend who was running for office and helping a bunch
of friends to someone. Some didn't but the important thing
is that Mississippi continues to evolve, and that's what's true
about the South. And Noah I'm gonna get you to
Mississippi because when you're finally president of the United States,
you need to be the president for all of the
(36:00):
United States. So you got to make sure much like
I've been to all one hundred and fifty nine counties.
Oh yes, you're gonna make you come to all fifty states,
and Mississippi's gonna be on the list, and I'll take
you there.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
It's gonna be great, but you have to protect me.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
I got you, okay, and we're going to Forsyth right,
we are, okay. It's gonna be great. And I thank
you so so much. You made my day for coming on.
You made my year, and I cannot wait to connect further.
And everyone go check out Assembly Required Code of Justice
and Stacy's children's book that I love so much.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Noah, you are amazing. Thank you so much for sharing
this time with me, for being such a champion not
only of mine, but a champion for good. It is
my honor.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Thank you, and I'll see you soon.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yes, sir, take care.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
This doesn't usually happen while interviewing, but I'm just so
amazed that Stacy Abrams was on that call, like genuinely
just shocked. She's the best. And so that was one
guest on Now You Know that.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
I was so.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Excited to deliver to you guys, So you better deliver
me a download and share this episode because we worked
tirelessly for that.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
So I cannot wait to get that out
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Now you Know and No Da Brosso is a production
of iHeartMedia and partnership with reisent Choice Media
Now you Know and No Deve Barrasso is a production
of iHeartMedia and partnership with Resent Choice Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
All right, I'm no Dea Barasso.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Today on my iHeart podcast Now You Know, I talked
to Stacy Abrams and asked her if she would run
for governor of Georgia once again, and let me be clear,
she gave us an answer that she wouldn't typically give
on podcasts. We also talked about the state of Georgia,
how she feels about cutting the state income tax and
let me tell you that answer with spicy folks, and
she gave me her her words nonscripted on if she
(00:31):
will run in the midterms. O.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Noah, you look awesome as always.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Thank you. How are you? I am well, that's so
good to hear.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You're the number one guests I wanted to have like forever,
so I so thank you for coming.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
It is my honor.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
How are you how? My first question really is how
have you been well?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
You know, other than watching the slow erosion of our democracy,
I've been good because because I know that there are
folks like you out there doing work, and I've been
able to stay in the fight. So as bad as
things may seem I'm pretty good because I know we
can win.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Thank you. I love you. What have you been up to?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Well, I adore you too, Noah. So I've been trying
to make you proud. I've been being a professional troublemaker.
So I have my own podcast, Assembly Required, Yes, with
Cricket Media. I have a sub stack Assembly Notes. I've
recently published a book, and since the last time I
saw You've got two books out. So my children's book
Stacey speaks up about how we help protect children, especially
(01:37):
hungry children, and then my new legal thriller, Coded Justice.
You know, I've just been annoying people and trying to
make the world better.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
It's amazing good trouble because you know where we're from,
exactly exactly. So I first met you at your campaign
event in twenty twenty two and you were second John
Asoff I met you. I met him impromptu, and then
I met you, and I was looking for you everywhere.
I was just following you around trying to see where
(02:07):
you were, and that's how I got started. And I
greatly appreciate you. So that day was absolutely insane.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Noah, you have always been someone who, despite I would say,
because of age, You've been fearless, you've been willing to
ask tough questions. You are preternaturally confident and gifted, and
so it was a delight to meet you, and it's
been a treat of mine to watch you continue to
grow and hold power accountable. So I'm just I'm honored
(02:36):
to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Thank you, and I'm so, so so ready. So tell
me this you brought up. Stacy Speaks Up. I love
Stacy speaks Up. So tell me about that first project
I want to hear about that. Tell me about that book.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
So Stacy Speaks Up was the third book in my
Stacy series. The first one, Stacy's Extraordinary Words, which talks
about it was a book about perseverance, that sometimes you
try things you don't win. I've had a little big
experience with that. The second one was Stacy's Remarkable Books,
which really focused on the importance of diversity in how
(03:10):
we understand each other and how we engage. But for
the third one, Stacy Speaks Up, I wanted to talk
about the intersection of empathy and advocacy. When you're in
the midst of a time of tumult like we are,
it's easy to forget that young people need not just information,
but they need a framework for how to respond. We
(03:30):
sometimes dismiss young people and think they're just recipients of
our bad actions, and that I mean you are perfect example.
They are also absolute instruments for good and they can
make things better with or without adults. And so Stacy
Speaks Up is about young Stacy who sees a child
in her school who goes hungry, and when the adults
aren't ready to do something about it, she and her
(03:52):
friends organize. They advocate, and they work to solve the
problem and bring their adults along with them.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
And on something less friendly, what about Coded Justice? Tell
me about that book.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
So Coded Justice is a book that I wrote because
I want us to understand AI, not just use it.
And a lot of us were comfortable with our prompts
for chat GPT or if you don't realize you use AI,
if you've ever used Siri or Alexa, or if you
like your car the fact that it can park itself,
that's all AI. It's all artificial intelligence. But what I
(04:26):
want us to do is to have a better grasp
on what AI means, not just today, but what it
means in ten years. And so I do my best
to tell stories that bring people in, give them the
information they need, and let them have fun and get
excited while they're doing it, or be terrified in this case.
And so Coded Justice is the story of my heroin
(04:48):
Avery Keane. She's a young lawyer who is now working
at a law firm. She is brought onto a tech
firm that is doing good work. They've gotten AI technology
to help improve healthcare for veterans, and to do that,
they've got to look at DEI. You cannot serve a
diverse population like veterans without understanding what diversity, equity and
(05:09):
inclusion mean as a way to build and train the model.
But as she gets deeper inside, she learns that there
is an engineer who has died, and that there's some
nefarious things happening. There's some veterans getting sick, and the
question is who or what is killing people off. And
so it's really designed to be a thriller that brings
(05:31):
us inside the tech world, brings us inside AI. But
when you leave, I want you to be not afraid
of AI, but I want you to believe that you
have the right to understand it. But more importantly, that
we've got to be cautious because AI is a tool.
It can be used to improve our lives or can
be used as a weapon, and it's up to us
(05:51):
to decide what that looks like by holding our leaders
accountable and by holding the creators of AI accountable.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, and what makes you stay?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Abrams want to make a book about AI, Like, how
do you feel about AI in general?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Why? AI?
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Well, it actually started because of my niece. My teenage
niece lived with me for four years and I remember
the first time she used chat GPT. I thought she
was cheating. I'm like why, and she said, no, I was.
It's part of the assignment. I have to use it.
I used to have to go look up things in
the library and use microfiche, which you would never recognize
(06:25):
if you saw it. But for me, it was a
question of she has this technology that I not only
don't understand, it's a technology that she's going to be
so comfortable with and half of the population of this
planet may not know what it means. And so it's
one of those moments where her youth really sparked my
you know, both my curiosity but also my competition. I
(06:49):
don't like not knowing things that she knows. So having
teenagers know more than you is a dangerous thing. So
a part of the reason I wrote the book was
so I had an excuse to learn as much about
AI as I.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, and do you ever like ask chat ut about
yourself sometimes, like what do you think about Stacy a Razibli?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, what do you say?
Speaker 3 (07:08):
I have not done that actually because I'm afraid of
what it might tell me.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
So fun, But would you say, out of those two
books we just discussed, which one do you think you
like more? To say a bluntly, which book do you
like more?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
See, I don't actually like one better than the other,
because they're very different audiences but with similar intent. You
and I met because I was running for office. I
run for office, I serve in public policy. I create companies.
I tell stories because we can't have a vision of
what we want if we don't tell ourselves a story
(07:42):
about what it means. And so, if I want children
to believe in their power, and I want I want
hunger to no longer be a conversation we have about kids,
I'm going to tell the story of Stacy speaks up.
If I want the adults who nearly let a moratorium
for ten years, say that we can't regulate AI. If
we want adults to make sure that we don't let
(08:05):
this technology run us instead of us running the technology,
then I needed to be able to tell them a story.
So for me, it's a question of who's the audience
I'm trying to speak to and which voice do I
get to use. It's a very different voice writing a
kid's book than writing a legal thriller. But for me,
both voices live in my head and I'm glad they
get to talk to people.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
We went from PB Andj's for Free to chagyb Tea
Might Kill You.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
It's great, there you go. I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
And we talk a little bit about DEI during that
Code of Justice book, What does it mean to you?
Speaker 2 (08:32):
What does do I mean to you?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
So one of the other pieces that I've been working on,
you ask what I've been doing. I started a set
of organizations called American Pride Rises Network. The sole purpose
is to protect, defend, and expand DEIDI gets dismissed, often
as a failed version of affirmative action, or we say
it's something boring that you do in HR and the
(08:55):
most cynical people use it as an insult. But are
values diversity meaning all people, equity meaning fair access to opportunity,
Inclusion meaning respecting others even if they're different than yourself.
That's how we built this country. Those are democratic values.
And anytime someone tells me they oppose DEI, I want
(09:18):
to know which value do you oppose? Are you upset
about diversity? Are you afraid of equity? Are you terrified
of inclusion? Because to me, it sounds like what you
want is the freedom to discriminate. And so I believe
that we can't protect our democracy if we don't protect
all of the people who are served by DEI. And
that means not just people of color, but that means immigrants,
(09:39):
it means the disabled. In fact, they've spent this past
few weeks working with disability communities because they are protected
by DEI. It's about gender and sexual identity. All of
those are issues that DEI not only protects but defends.
And if we want to defend democracy, we have to
defend DEI.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
So what other than that organization you talk about, if
you'd like to expand on that, what have you been
doing around DEI advocacy wise.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
So American Pride rises is three different organizations, so there's
Defending American Values Coalition. We provide talking points and toolkits,
Know your Rights, We help people understand what DEI is
and what it isn't. But more importantly, we respond to
the attack that are lies. The President of the United
States does not have the authority to undo DEI with
(10:30):
an executive order. It's just not true. But it's hard
for people to believe that. So we built an AI
chat bot. It's called a Diva, So if you go
to aprnetwork dot org, you can ask it questions about DEI,
find out what's legal, what's not, what does DEI mean,
what doesn't it mean. We have a second organization called
Deliver the American Dream. I was just in Boston for
(10:51):
convening of state legislators because we need to protect against
the attempt to, for example, as you know, banning books.
That's the way that they are trying to dismantle DEI.
So let's make sure our state legislators are fighting to
keep our books in the schools and keep our history honest.
Let's think about healthcare and housing. How do we protect community.
(11:11):
So Dad does the work of talking to state legislators
and then there's a third group called freedom Economy, and
we work with investors, the people spending the money. We
saw what happened to Target when Target said it didn't
believe in DEI anymore. So do you want to be
a Target or do you want to be a costco?
And we're trying to help make certain that folks make
the right choice. So you want shop and at Target
at all, I do not stop at Target.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Nope. Okay, so even as of now, So like let's
say you just really need something so bad, she's gonna
go somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
You have too. I've often talked about how boycotts work.
Boycotts are a way to express your value system, and
it's a personal choice. And so for some deciding not
to shop at Target is a way to express personal choice.
Not everyone can afford to make those decisions. Sometimes, if
you're in if that's the only shop that's near you,
you got to make different decisions. So I don't judge
(12:02):
people based on my tactical decisions, but I do appreciate
how important it is that we signal our values with
our dollars, because when we spend our money and say
don't do what I don't like, but take my dollars anyway.
We're giving mixed messages. However, and again I'm going to
say this very plainly. Not everyone can afford to make
(12:25):
the same choices. And that's why I do all of
the work I do, because ultimately I want people to
have choice. I want them to have free will, and
if they choose to shop at Target, that's great. If
you decide to do it, make sure you give money
to a DEI organization. If you can't make the decision
to use that tactic, make sure you're doing something else
to show your solidarity.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Because we're a pro choice around everywhere everything. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
It makes me so sad hearing that you're not with
Target anymore. I boy toott it to, by the way,
but it makes me sad because I remember that amazing
video you did on your TikTok where you met people
at the Target, and I was like, I love.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I do know. And the thing is, you know, Target
was a good company, and hopefully they are learning their
lesson because that's the other reality. And I appreciate you
referencing that. It was so much fun being in that
because that's where people were and it was why It
was so jarring to so many people when Target did
what it did, because Target didn't just say we like you.
Target said we are going to put our money where
(13:22):
our mouths are and we value you. You cannot change
your mission without having an impact. And so if Target
had never done that, people would have been like, Okay, yeah,
we didn't expect anything different. But you can't tell people
you're going to be You cannot be a hypocrite, and
that hypocrisy means they're going to be consequences. But people
(13:43):
can also correct. I'm listening. I want to see companies
that have made bad decisions about DEI. My responsibility is
to help them make better decisions, and when they make
those better decisions, to celebrate them as much as we
were willing to vilify them. If you make the wrong choice,
you should be held accountable, and if you make the
right choice, you should be supported. And our responsibility is
(14:05):
to make sure we're thinking about the whole spectrum of behavior.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
And so me and Sacy Abras are not going to
be a Target.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
It's fine, but no, where are we going?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Costco?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
There we go? We're going to Costco?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
There we go? I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Well, you're listening to Now You Know with Noted Braso,
where we're about to take a short break and we'll
come back to our conversation.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
With Leader Abrams.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
I heard you speak a little bit about this on
your amazing podcast, Assembly Required. And as much as I
love falling asleep listening to podcasts, I can't fall asleep
listening to that because you say so much real stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
So tell me about Assembly Required.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
So Assembly Required is a podcast that I launched last year,
and the whole point is to take things that feel
too big and too complicated and break them down, make
sure we understand what we're afraid of, and then give
us tools for how we navigate it. The very first
episode I did with my niece with faith, and it
was about the electoral College. You can't fix the electoral
(15:07):
college unless we change the constitution. But the first job
is to understand what it is. And then the second
job is to know what can we do If we
can't solve the big thing, what are the little things,
the medium sized things we can do. And so I
try to take topics that are big and complicated and
make them accessible, help us tell a story about what
it means. But then at the end of every episode.
(15:28):
As you know, I give people homework. What can you do?
How do you be curious? How do you solve problems?
And how do you do good? Part of what they're
trying to do to us is to convince us that
we can't do anything about what's happening. I don't believe it,
You don't believe it. And so our job is to
tell through our podcast, yours and mine, to tell people
what they can do to make the world better.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I'm going to shoo a very long shot. Can I
please be on Assembly Require?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yes you can. We will make it happen. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Absolutely, Thank you so so much, Thank you so much.
And so I love Assembly Required bottles your experience and
the experience of your guests as well. But during your
time as Minority leader, what part of that work has
made Assembly Required and coded justice and everything that we're
doing right now?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
So when I was minority leader, although Republicans forget it now,
they actually used to like me. They didn't they didn't
necessarily like my politics, but they liked my approach, which
was I listened to everything, I read everything. I made
it a point to understand the belief systems of those
who did not share my beliefs, and I worked with
(16:35):
people to try to solve problems. That was my mission,
So I was curious. I tried to solve problems, and
I always tried to do good. I think they got
a little annoyed when it turned into winning elections. But
as minority leader, my job was to help my colleagues,
both the ones in my caucus Democrats, but also a
lot of times working with Republicans so they understood what
(16:56):
they were doing with the laws they were passing. I
had a very good relationship with the Speaker of the
House at a good relationship with Governor Nathan Deal. It
was not because we were aligned on everything or because
we agreed about everything, but we looked for places where
we could understand and work together. We can want the
same outcome, but not for the same reason, and too
often we think we have to believe the same thing
(17:18):
and want it for the same reason. I don't care
for me, it is my beliefs are mine. But if
I can get your behavior to align with the outcomes
that I need, that's what we have to do. And
so as simply required is a version of that. Let
me make sure you may not believe what I believe
at the end, but you're gonna understand it, and you're
gonna know what we're trying to get to, and you're
going to have faith that if you do the work,
(17:38):
we can get there.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Amazing, And I think as as leader that you were
a minority leader. Now you're leading the minorities. You're helping
us out, we're helping DEI were solving the things. I'm serious,
I think it means a great deal. So as minority leader,
that makes you the most qualified person for the office
you ran for. You're my favorite person on earth.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
So I'm just gonna ask you, Oh, you're so kind.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I mean it too.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Will I say, well, we run again for governor in
twenty twenty six, says I'm going to be there with
you if you do, and you can be so real
about it with.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
Me, I'm going to be incredibly real. I have not
made a decision because that's not my focus right now.
You and I both know that before we get to
twenty twenty six, we've got to survive twenty twenty five.
And public office is one of the tools that I
use to do work. But I also have podcasts, I
raise money for organizations, I set up companies, I write books.
(18:31):
I am not focused on that yet, because for now,
we have to remind Americans and Georgians that we are
entitled to so much more than what we are seeing.
We are entitled to a government that works for us.
We are entitled to democracy that delivers for us. So
if I were going to whisper the truth to anybody,
(18:53):
it would be you. I know you wouldn't tell anyone.
But it's truly that I have not made any decisions
yet because as I am really so focused on the
work that we have to do now around making sure
that we are protecting the democracy we have for the
people who need it most.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yes, I'm holding my endorsement. I promise I'm holding it.
It's reserved, it's yours, and.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I'm so oh, you're so kind.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
And so I wonder what does the following counties in
Georgia mean to you? Every time I'm in like a
place that's not metro Atlanta, I think Stacy Abrams has
probably been here. Oh, I miss Stacy Abrams. So what
does Fulton County.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Mean to you?
Speaker 3 (19:31):
Fulton County begins with Atlanta, but it also includes Alpharetta.
So I spent a lot of time going to North Georgia. Yeah,
which mean you spend a lot of time in the
car in Fulton County.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, I love it. It reminds me. I'm going to
ask you about this after this. The cab, what does
the cab meaning?
Speaker 3 (19:47):
The cab is where I first learned about Georgia. So
my parents moved us here from Mississippi. We lived in Decatur.
I went to Avondel High School. When I moved back,
I moved back to Deacab County. I've only lived in
Fulton County when I was at Spelman College. Otherwise I've
always lived in Decap County.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Oh, you loved the cab.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Okay, I loved the cab.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Amazing.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Gwett The cab decide Man, the cab decide Gwinnett. Gwenette
is the largest county that is not a state. I
know it's not technically so, but if you go to Gwenette,
you are going to see the entire microcosm of what
Georgia is. You can meet every community, you can see
every class difference, you can hear every language. But it's
(20:31):
also emblematic of just how fantastic the state could be
if we fully leverage all of our resources in all
of our people.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yeah, I love this. And last one Forsyth foresythe.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
County gets a bad rap for a good reason. Its
history is not good bad pr You know, when I
became minority leader, one of my jobs was to go
to places where we didn't have Democrats. And I got
an invitation to go to Forsyth County, and I was
not necessarily excited because it was for an evening event,
and I've not heard great things, but there is no
(21:05):
place that shows you what's possible in places where people
should believe that everything is dead. The energy in Forsyth,
the willingness to push back against stereotype and narrative and
to shape their sense of what's possible, is infectious. And
then I got a chance to go to Forsyth High
School and meet students there, and again to go to
(21:27):
the high school in Forsyth County, seeing young people in
Forsyth who so look different than they did when I
was a student in Decab County. It's proof of the
evolution and the continued growth of our state.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, and I'm gonna give you one more because I've
forgotten real folk.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
I'm like, come on, now Muskogee, Muscogie County home to
Columbus Georgia, home to Fort Benning, but also home to
some really good barbecue and to the rafting park that
they've got there.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
They don't play by that part they look.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
I grew up on the Gulf of mex I will
tell you my first experience with Lake Lanier was not
the best because I'd come from a golf I will
say that what they promise in the water park they deliver.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
You are from the Gulf of Mexico.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I am indeed not with Mexico, the Gulf of Anything.
We don't do propaganda on this show.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Gulf of Mexico, Gulf of Mexico, and lastly Muscogee, I'm
not Miscogy.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Chatham Chatham County, home of Savannah, but also it is
the home of smaller communities like Garden City, places where
we don't necessarily think about how important they are to
our economy. But these are the places that help make
Chatham and Savannah work. And I believe what I love
about Muscogee, what I love about Chatham are the counties
(22:44):
that are nearby. Looking at Talbot County, looking over at
Peach County, Peach County, So country going down to Sumter
and heading over to going up to Tulliver County. When
you're heading towards Sparta, Georgia and Hancock County, we have
an extraordinary state. One hundred and fifty nine counties. The
counties that you listed are those anchor counties. But we've
(23:05):
got to remember that they are anchors. But we need
everybody else in the boat.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
They're going to kill me. Cobb Blast, that's it.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Cob Cobb County. Of course, Cobb County, which has been
navigating some difficulty with a school board that doesn't want
to teach the students it has because the politics have changed,
but they don't want to change with the politics. But
I'm so proud of the leadership of Cobb County, the
fact that Cobb refuses to be bound by its past
(23:32):
and is absolutely driving towards a future that works for
everyone in that county.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, and it's becoming more and more progressive. I'm loving it.
And we spoke about your podcast to Stay Issues. How
are you feeling about Sploss? I love Sploss so much.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Okay, So, no, I think you know this because I
believe you came to every event I ever did. But
I'm a tax attorney by training. Part of what I
used to do at the capital. Going back to your
question about being minority leader, I was able to work
with Democrats and Republicans because I know how tax policy works.
In a state that relies on sales taxes and constrains
(24:09):
what government can do, local governments don't have as much
authority over how much money they can raise to meet
the problems that they have. I used to work for
the City of Atlanta. That was a huge issue. Well,
sploss are one of the few tools made available. They're
special purpose local option sales tax. Basically, the government says
to the people, if you are willing to tax yourself,
here's the thing that we can have splossed around. Transportation
(24:32):
are incredibly important, especially the expansion of public transit, because
if we do not agree to invest together, we don't
get what we need. And a SPLOSS is a way
for people to say we are willing to invest together
because this special purpose is so meaningful to us that
we are willing to say, charge me a little bit
more now so that the next generation can have what
(24:53):
they need.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
I love it because I can't pay real tax, so
I like and I think there's no one better to
tell me this, But Leader Abrams, am I helping? When
they say, hey, do you want to eat this food
at home?
Speaker 2 (25:04):
We already have?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Or do you want to go out? And I say
out because I want to pay those flas dollars? Am
I helping?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
You?
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Are?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
You are?
Speaker 3 (25:10):
And here's the thing, and I love the way that
you say it helping. We have been bamboozled by those
who argue that taxes are some form of oppression. Now,
there are different types of taxes. There are progressive taxes
where you pay according to your capacity. There are regressive
taxes where we charge the poorest more and the wealthiest
get away with more. And then you have neutral taxes,
(25:31):
and those are the taxes where it doesn't really matter.
You buy what you can afford, and there's a bit
of neutrality to taxes. But ultimately, in a civilized society,
taxes are how we decide what we're willing to invest in.
Are we willing to invest in children not going hunger?
If we are, we pay income taxes, in sales taxes.
Do we want children to be educated? And do we
(25:52):
want to make certain that we have roads and bridges?
If so, we pay properties separating taxes. If you want
to see your schools make stranger, your community's made safer
than you pay sploss because floss are dedicated to certain
purposes and the government has to tell you what the
purpose is. Taxes are not good or bad. The uses
(26:12):
are the question. The amount is the conversation. But a
tax is a tool, just like AI. A tax is
a tool. A tool can be used to build something
for you or destroy something. It's up to us to
decide which one it is. And we decide that by voting,
and then by staying engaged. And knowah, you are the
proof that if you stay engaged, you can make taxes,
(26:34):
but you can also make government do better by you.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah, and there's an assembly required to that. So it's
like really important, Exactly, we got to hit a quick break,
So don't go anywhere you're listening to now, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
And there's a debate.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
There's kind of a debate going on should they cut
the state income tax?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
So no, so let's be really clear. I thought that
battle actually during my time in the legislature. Really, this
notion that you eliminate an income tax is fool's gold
because what they're not saying is let's stop doing what
we do. And let's be clear, Georgia, in terms of
how much it spends per capita, we are not in
(27:19):
the top echelon of states in terms of our investment
in our people. But the amount of money we have
comes from three types of taxes sales tax, property tax,
and income tax. Well, the state of Georgia no longer
has a statewide property tax. We eliminated that when I
was during my time in the legislature, so now we're
down to two, the income tax and the sales tax.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
If you eliminate a tax like the income tax, which
is considered a progressive tax, the more money you make,
the more you pay. The less money you make, the
less you pay, which makes sense because if you have less,
you can afford less. Sales tax is regressive. A loaf
of bread bread doesn't work because Georgia doesn't tax food.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, that's all right, groceries.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
But when you have to buy a card, a Christmas card,
the cost of the Christmas card does not inquire how
much money you made that year, so the card costs
the same amount. A regressive tax says that even if
you make less than I do, if you need the
same thing that I do, you're going to pay a
higher proportion of your income to get it. That's called
(28:24):
regressive and that's largely frowned upon by economists because when
you have too many regressive taxes, the poorest people in
your community, the middle class, in the lower middle class,
they actually have less money to spend, and the wealthy
get even more. So what is being argued for is,
let's get rid of the progressive tax, not politically progressive,
but the tax that helps us guarantee that we get
(28:46):
what we need, and let's put all the burden on
the people who have the least amount of control over
their income. It is a dumb idea because what we
are saying is that we are going to put a
sales tax on everything. Now, what they're going to come
back with is Texas and Florida in Tennessee and Texas
has oil and Florida has Disney. Georgia is not Texas.
We are not Florida. And more importantly, the stability of Georgia.
(29:09):
Irrespective of who's been in charge, we've had a pretty
stable economy because every party, Democrat or Republican, we've always
understood that our stability rested on our moderate approach to
what we do. The minute we decide we're going to
chase fool's gold by eliminating a stable source of revenue
hoping that poor people are suddenly going to make more money.
(29:32):
That's magic or voodoo, and that is not the kind
of economics we need in State of Georgia.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I'm so glad like you talked about that, because, like
I was scared to ask you, because I really want
a golf cart, and if they cut the state income tax.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
I might get a golf cart. So no, I'll I'll
just do it in other way.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
It's gonna be great. But you taught me a lot.
And I think you wake up an issue that goes
back to your experience as minority leader, and you talk
about this on Assembly Acquired. Why do you care so
much about Georgia? You could easily move to DC at
California or somewhere else with no.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
State income text too, maybe Tennessee, somewhere else, But you
could have been anywhere. Why do you love Georgia so much?
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Because Georgia is proof of what is possible, but it's
also an example of how much more we have that
we can do I believe people should have the opportunity
to thrive. I grew up in Mississippi. I came of
age in Georgia. Georgia has good bones. It has all
(30:34):
of the facets that we should want to see in
an effective government in effective communities. But because Republicans refuse
to expand Medicaid, we have hundreds of thousands of people
who get sick who don't need to because it refuses
to accept resources. We have thousands of children who go
hungry who don't need to because we will not expand medicaid.
(30:57):
We have veterans in this state who can't get the
support they need, but we could afford it. And so
for me, Georgia is a proof point. It is a
diverse state that has access to equity if we're willing
to use it, and that can be the most inclusive
place without changing the character of who we are. We
are good people who want people to be able to succeed.
(31:20):
But that means we've got to think about all of
the people in the state, and we've got to do
the work for everyone in the state. But more importantly,
I'm a daughter of the South. I grew up in Mississippi,
came of age in Georgia. I've been through Alabama because
I can't get to either place without it. I lived
in Texas for a while, i went north. I'm a
daughter of the South, and Georgia is where I plant
at my feet and plant at my heart and they're
(31:40):
not getting rid of me that easily.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And why is winning the state of Georgia is so
important for Democrats Because Georgia is reflective of the future
of this country seventeen years. This is a country that's
going to be a majority minority when in about seventeen years. Wow, yeah,
your generation is the most diverse generation in American history.
And because of the diversity of your generation, because you're
(32:03):
Gen Alpha, correct, yes, so Gen alpha, Gen Z and
younger millennials, those three cohorts when Gen Alpha can vote,
because I know, when you get to vote and start
running for office, you know, all bets are off for
the rest of us.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
But if those populations they outnumber the other generations, but
they're also the most diverse generations, which means that if
we want to see what we can be, if we
want to truly leverage the human capacity, Georgia is where
we learn what that looks like because Georgia right now
(32:39):
is one of the most diverse states in the nation.
We have burgeoning populations that are Asian American, Latino, black, white,
Native American. We look like America. We have the economic
capacity to show America what good policy looks like when
it serves everyone. And we have the history of not
(32:59):
all the Civil Rights movement, but the Civil War, so
we know what it looks like when we use our
power against our people as they did in the Civil War,
and what it looks like when we use our power
to serve our people like we did in Civil Rights.
I want Georgia to show not just democrats, but to
show America how much more we can do with who
we are.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
And to wrap it up, by the way, I was
really playing close attention. I was just writing about how
much I love you, So I was doing something. So
I was pretty busy. So you mentioned as we wrap up,
you mentioned something really interesting. Georgia is going to be
majority minority at some point.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Oh yeah, in the next three to five years. So
demographic map said that it should be happening between twenty
twenty five to twenty twenty seven. If you look at
the demography of Georgia majority minority means that no one
racial group has a majority of the population. The white
population in Georgia compared to the rising number of people
of color means that we are shifting. And so yes, demographically,
(33:59):
Georgia between now in twenty twenty seven twenty eight is
going to be a majority of minority state.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
You know what that means, Leader Abrams, I do not
tell me. We haven't a DA party.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Indeed, indeed, and as we wrap up, as we wrap up,
we're gonna do our short civic test. Okay, who is
the youngest member of Congress ever? I'm assuming Maxwell Frost, Yes.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Yes, yes, indeed.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
And what then state representative got arrested at the Georgia
State Capitol.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
That would be either you're either talking about Alicia Thomas
Morgan or you were talking about Nikima williams'.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
S Nakima Williams. That's right, that's right. Oh yeah, you're
all upon Georgia. I forgot. This is this yours, This
is yours.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Marjorie Taylor Green lives in what part of Georgia?
Speaker 3 (34:52):
She lives in North Georgia.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
She lives in North Georgia. And we spoke about this
a little bit.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
What part of Georgia has a scary representation due to
a certain situation with Oprah.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Okay, now again, I know what you're trying to do about. Look,
I'm gonna rep for Forsythe for a second because lots
of places. I'm from Mississippi. We have an entire uber
of movie about mistakes that we've made. But we also
Mississippi is a state where so much as possible and
so much good comes out. We gave you, guys, bb King,
So forsythe County made mistakes and Oprah did document it.
(35:28):
But I've been to Forsythe recently and they're good people.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I'm not going to Mississippi.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
I'm not going to Forsythe And that movie we talked
about is not so sweet and it's not Mississippi, Massala,
So we know what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
No, no, no, okay, see, I'm gonna make you come
and visit. I was actually down in Mississippi helping a
friend who was running for office and helping a bunch
of friends to someone. Some didn't but the important thing
is that Mississippi continues to evolve, and that's what's true
about the South. And Noah I'm gonna get you to
Mississippi because when you're finally president of the United States,
you need to be the president for all of the
(36:00):
United States. So you got to make sure much like
I've been to all one hundred and fifty nine counties.
Oh yes, you're gonna make you come to all fifty states,
and Mississippi's gonna be on the list, and I'll take
you there.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
It's gonna be great, but you have to protect me.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
I got you, okay, and we're going to Forsyth right,
we are, okay. It's gonna be great. And I thank
you so so much. You made my day for coming on.
You made my year, and I cannot wait to connect further.
And everyone go check out Assembly Required Code of Justice
and Stacy's children's book that I love so much.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Noah, you are amazing. Thank you so much for sharing
this time with me, for being such a champion not
only of mine, but a champion for good. It is
my honor.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Thank you, and I'll see you soon.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yes, sir, take care.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
This doesn't usually happen while interviewing, but I'm just so
amazed that Stacy Abrams was on that call, like genuinely
just shocked. She's the best. And so that was one
guest on Now You Know that.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
I was so.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Excited to deliver to you guys, So you better deliver
me a download and share this episode because we worked
tirelessly for that.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
So I cannot wait to get that out
Speaker 1 (37:16):
Now you Know and No Da Brosso is a production
of iHeartMedia and partnership with reisent Choice Media
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