John Graham Interview: How a session with Jordan Spieth led to him working with Justin Thomas and his perspective on Tiger’s dominate putting

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
It's episode forty three of Off Course with Claude Harmon.
You know the drill. We come to you every Wednesday.
This week's guest putting guru, John Graham, might not be
a household name. It's one of the cool things I
love about the podcast as I get to bring people
on that maybe you haven't heard of. But he's working
with some of the best players in the world, Justin Thomas,
Danny Willett, Cameron Champ just to name a few. They

(00:33):
entrust John to help them with their putting and it's
a really, really good listen because who doesn't want to
put better. Before we get to that interview, I want
to talk to you about our friends, Cobra Golf. They're
sponsoring the podcast. I've been with Cobra Golf for a
number of years now. They've got a new driver out
for it's the l T d X driver. There's three

(00:56):
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So if you want to try and have a little
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(01:17):
them straight into my bag. I mean, it's it's a
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because I think you're gonna want to put their driver

(01:40):
in your bag. So now let's get to the interview
with John Graham. Really excited for you to hear everything
he has to say about putting. My guest today is
John Graham. John, you and I go back a long way. Um,
I joke with you all of time. I think you

(02:01):
were one of the early early people in the Gulf
space to kind of Twitter, and um, you know, you
and I was over was working in Dubai, I was
living overseas and then you and I had connected through
Twitter and you said at the merchant I showed you
had a tweet up, you had a t shirt made
and you were walking around you were trying to get

(02:22):
golf instructors um together. I mean, that seems like a
long time ago. So when I see you now, you know,
rolling around with Justin Thomas at Majors, it's always it's
always funny to me that you know, that's we met
basically on a blind date on social media. Yeah, and
there was like maybe people there total, and uh, I

(02:44):
mean it was it was a very very beginning of
of that of that space. Like years later on we
would get hundreds of people, but like the one that
you came to was the very very first one, just
kind of on a whim, and it was it was
like a like an ale house. And and when I
it up, you were like, I can't believe you showed up.
And I was like, well, you invited me, so, I
mean obviously I was going to show up. I'm still

(03:06):
surprised to this day, and most of the people that
were there were surprised to see you as well. You
were always somebody that that had to me a lot
of knowledge and putting and and I think you were
one of the first people that I think kind of
kind of pushed no. I mean there were other guys
that pushed all in on a point, but you were
one of the first people that that I could talk
to having not really gone through any of the aim point.

(03:28):
This is before the aime point express on what we
see now where guys are holding up the fingers. How
did you get involved in that and what did you
see in that that made you think, Okay, this is
something that I think could be really beneficial not only
to my instruction, but also to students and players. Uh. Well,

(03:48):
I actually found out about aim point while I was
a college coach at a two year school here in
Rochester called Monroe Community College. UM. I was working in
a club called Webster Golf Club, and I was just
looking for ways to make my team better UM and
green reading was one of those things. And I ran
across a video by David or that he had recorded

(04:09):
Mark Sweeney coming out and basically teaching the original aim
point class to his students at his PGM program at
Campbell University. So on this website and it's like, here's
a video called green reading one on one. Oh my gosh,
I've never seen a video on green reading before this.
I'm gonna buy this and check it out and see
what it is. So after I watched it, I was like, man,

(04:30):
I've never heard anything like that before. I've never read
anything like that before. I'm gonna get ahold of this guy,
Mark Sweeney and see what's up. Um. So I found
Mark Sweeney online. He had a website, he had a
certification program, brand brand new. This is like two thousand
seven probably, and I sent of a message and say, hey,
I'm really interested. Is there what do I do to

(04:50):
learn more? And basically he contacted me back and said, well,
I need you to do is set up a clinic
at your home course. I'll come up and teach it,
and then when we when I get done, I'll show
you what how this the whole thing works in more
detail than what's in the class, and then we can
kind of go from there. So, after I watched this
video that David had put out, I'm like this, this

(05:13):
is no way this thing can work. So I started
writing down a bunch of questions that I thought would
break this thing apart, so that when Mark showed up,
I could ask him these questions, he wouldn't have answers
and I would just move on. Um Well, to my surprise,
he had excellent answers for all of it. And when
we had completed our conversation, well I want to get involved.
What what do I have to do now to learn

(05:35):
more and and go down this road. So me and
Rob Noel in in Louisiana go back and forth between
who was the first one officially certified. I know for
sure it was me, but we were both certified very
very soon or at a similar time. Um, and I
basically just taught in Point for years as my only
income source. And that's that's uh. When I came down

(05:57):
to the Thridian and spent a day with a lot
of on alright at the very very beginning of this,
and then that kind of morphed into because I remember,
if your brain didn't work like your brain works, I mean,
you've got you've got a different type. You're wired very
very differently than I am. Right, you're gonna look at
aim point, which is very very you know, the early

(06:17):
you know, pre all of the stuff that we see
guys doing now, it was really really intensive. It was
a lot of math, It was a lot of numbers,
and so my brain just didn't work like that. Your
type of brain took something that was really really complex
and you said, okay, let me find a way to
poke holes in this I was just trying to figure

(06:37):
out how the damn thing works. You're trying to figure
out how to poke holes in it and see if
you can, you know, figure out ways that it doesn't work.
Aimpoint express, what we see a lot of players using
now was a huge game changer for green reading. How
do you think that came about? And um, where does
it go from from here? Because I mean, we're seeing

(06:58):
more and more players starting to use it. So the
apoint expressed method kind of came about, if I remember
the story correctly, from a children's clinic that Mark Sweeney
and Robin we well, we're doing in Louisiana, where, um,
you know, a good chunk of the students were seven
to twelve years old, and as you've mentioned before, the

(07:20):
math involved in doing it the original way really really didn't.
It didn't work for kids. So what they were trying
to do originally was to go through the read and
then come up with an answer of let's say fifteen
inches or whatever. But the kids didn't know what fifteen
inches was or what representator, like how far is that?
So Robin used an idea that he used to use

(07:42):
an archery that's also used in other places like the
Navy and things where he would just hold up his
thumb to try to fill in the space of what
fifteen inches was and said, okay, kid, just put it here.
And kind of through that idea, they started putting up
more fingers and said, okay, well, what if it's a steeper,
shallow or how like, how do we can we make
this work some how? And it just kind of grew
from that idea um and hasn't really changed all that much.

(08:05):
From the very beginning. It was trying to figure out, Okay,
if you're standing on a slope and you try to
represent the slope with a number of fingers, the flatter
the slope, the fewer fingers you hold up, and so
on and so forth. And I mean, gosh, I don't know.
I don't really know where green meading goes from here.
I mean, especially on tour with the changes in the
Green Book, Yeah, what do you think about that? Do
you do? You? Do you? I mean, obviously they said

(08:28):
they wanted to change that because of the time constraint um.
I personally think the only reason they changed that is
because of Bryson. I think they were tired of Bryson
constantly going back and forth to the book and taking
so much time, and it looked like that was kind
of part of the reasons why Bryson was such a
slow player. What do you, I mean, what are your
thoughts on that? I I don't know what the core

(08:51):
reason was. I know there was a bunch of a
bunch of guys on the pack who who wanted and
enjoyed the way Augusta was was played, which is no
green books, no nothing, no coaches on the course, It's
just players, players, players, And I do think your point
about Bryson is well stated. Most people would complain that
Bryson was green solving and not green reading, like he
wasn't actually trying to read the green he was just

(09:12):
trying to solve the for the answer. Um. And some
people didn't. I didn't enjoy that as a part of
a skill to the game. Um. It's a completely different skill,
a skill in and of itself that you know, some
people are wired for and other people are not. Um.
Because the artistic side of the green reading he struggled with,
which is why he learned it the other way and

(09:32):
matched his personality and fit who he was. There isn't
there isn't a lot of artistry to what Bryson does. He,
like you said, he is not trying to green read.
He is trying to green solve, which I think is
really I've never heard anyone say it like that, but
that's what he's trying to do. But don't you think
that in two we have all of this information available,

(09:58):
and do you think it's helping the game or do
you think it's hindering the game? Because you hear a
lot of the old players say, listen, you're back in
my day. You know, we didn't have green reading books.
You have to do it with your eyes. But technology
data has evolved that he's out there that can help
people read greens better. So isn't it a win versus

(10:22):
a negative? I think you make a good point. I mean,
there aren't many sports um that are continually trying to
turn the clock back, and golf seems to be the
one that keeps trying to do it. I it's not
like other people don't have access to the information that
Bryson has. We all have the same access. We can
all kind of massage the information in the manner that
fits us best. So I'm kind of on your side

(10:43):
of things that It was similar with the long putter
van or the belly pan. I mean, as long as
everybody gets the option to do it, and if it
was truly that much better than everyone would have everybody
would be doing it, right. Yeah, So how do you
go from being kind of the guy, the first certified
aim point guy to teaching aim point? And I know

(11:05):
there were a bunch of players of you know, when
I was working with Trevor and woman, you know, a
number of years ago, Trevor said, hey, listen, you know,
I feel like I'm my strokes pretty good green reading.
I sent him you. So, how do you go from
being an aim point guy to having Justin Thomas, one
of the best players in the world, a major champion,
a number one FedEx Cup guy. I mean, how does

(11:25):
that process go? I mean he just justin sees you,
he hears about you, He picks up the phone and
calls you close. Actually yeah, I mean, so I got
pulled out on tour basically the way you described it.
You know, Trevor was the first one to reach out.
And while I was at an event, Charles holl was there.
Charles is wired and more like my way of doing things,
and he was curious for sure, and Charles is definitely

(11:49):
an early adopter when it comes to golf. Infoe and um.
Also at that same event, Chris Cola wanted me to
show it to Jamie Lovemark. So this is or something
like that. Um and uh and pretty quickly, Uh, it
was easy to see that. You know, if you can
teach someone how to read a green, well, um, if
they can't do the other skills that well, then it

(12:10):
doesn't doesn't really help. Or if or if teaching them
well or accurately actually makes them read the green worse
because of how they did it before, that can also
hurt them pretty quickly as well. E's so like trying
to figure out what's the right combination of here's the
reality of what the ball needs to do. You see
it this way, but you can create that reality, but
they're not the same thing, and how do you how

(12:31):
do you kind of mesh that piece together? Um? And
I just kind of evolved into help just helping people
get better and and you know, to your point, Justin
got my name from Jordan's Speed who I spent a
day with, came and asked me to come down and
spend a day with Jordan's I mean, first of all,
what the hell are you going to tell him? Because

(12:52):
that I mean, that's honestly. I mean, sometimes it's like
the old joke that you know, my grandfather wants. My
uncle dick was working with I think Lanny Watkins, and
he just won some tournament by a million strokes, and
he was there the following week and my uncle Dickie
was working with him. My grandfather said, what the hell
are you teach them? The guy just one it's I mean,
Jordan's seems like the ultimate guy that can figure out

(13:16):
the picture and the speed and the read. Was this
when Jordan was kind of going through a little bit
of that downturn, obviously his putting wasn't what it once
was exactly right, and so so Cameron had brought me
down just for a fresh set of eyes, like, am
I missing something here? These are the things that we
normally do. He's not getting back to where he used
to be like he normally does. Just come down and

(13:38):
take a look and see see if there's anything you
see that's different than I see. And then we just
kind of talked about it and whatnot. And Jordan had
basically fixed himself before I got there. Like the week
before he had found something in his setup. Um And
and when I did my assessment of Jordan, he he
has very clearly shown the greatest set of skills and
anybody I've ever assessed his ability to read a green

(14:00):
hit at the distance he wants, aim it well, hit
it there um. But prior to me getting there, what
he was struggling with was the ability to aim well.
And because Jordan hits the ball where he aims it
and reads it where he aims it, if his aim
gets off, then everything else kind of tumbles downward and
he can't get the ball to go where he needs
it to go because he if he's aiming had a

(14:22):
cup out and he's actually trying to aimble it the
ball out well. Now he hits it a cup out
and he's not gonna do as well as he normally
would do, and it puts it out very very straight.
Jordan's always gonna be one of the best of anything
breaks because he doesn't really care where he aims. He
can kind of just send it out there with really
good speed and a good read and be okay. But
when it comes to puts that were short or puts
that were straight where Jordan had struggled also in the past.

(14:44):
That was what really. I was there to kind of
see if it was if something had gotten off in
that area, but he had fixed himself, like the week
before I got there. But because of that day, there
was a couple of things that Jordan had seen me
do that he had not seen before. Not necessarily you know,
earth shattering a rocket science, but it's just something he
had not experienced with Cameron, and I think in Justin's case,

(15:07):
and I was maybe fourth down the list. He had
gone to see Phil Kenyon, he'd gone to see Brad
Facts and and maybe one other. He's working with Matt Killen,
of course, and he asked Jordan's, you know, is there
anybody you would recommend? And Jordan's like, yeah, I had
this guy come down and see me one day, and
he had some pretty interesting ideas. Don't leave us hanging,
I mean, give us the secrets. What did Jordan's see
you do or ask or in that meeting that he

(15:30):
hadn't had anyone say to him before. Come on, don't
don't don't leave us hanging. The secret sauce was um
that I asked Jordan's two make the ball stop at
a specific place, so I put down like a fake
hold the ball could roll over, and I asked Jordan
to rita pott and then project what the rest of

(15:51):
the putt would look like after the whole if the
hole was not there, And Jordan was able to do
that incredibly well, which is very very rare because basically,
the the extended version of the putt after the whole
represents the speed the person is going to hit it.
So if somebody chooses to be an aggressive putter, the
art beyond the whole is gonna look different than somebody

(16:13):
who's going to be a very soft putter. And it
it changed a little bit in the way that Jordan's
saw what his goal was. It wasn't just to get
the ball to go in at a certain speed, but
what is this the entirety of the picture look like
with the whole somewhere in the middle of it, um
or certainly towards the end. But that idea, And it
was that idea that was just something he had not
had not seen before. Again, not really necessarily rocket science,

(16:35):
but just a different way of trying to generate an
idea of the goal like the entire In my opinion,
the entire goal of the game is to make the
ball stop where you want to stop it. If you
can do that well, you can play good golf. And
in putting, most people lose the ending of where the
ball would go because the hole hopefully gets in the way.

(16:56):
And if they have a fuller projection of what the
actual true ending target might be, that may inform their
speed and they feel a little bit more specifically to say,
I need to make the ball roll from here to there.
If I do that, all should getting the way. Uh.
And that was the thing that was slightly different for him.
I read you you put some something out on Twitter.
It said, one of the biggest challenges in putting is

(17:19):
this is um deciding if you think it's easier to
roll a ball through an area or roll a ball
to an area given your situation, slope, angle, and time. Right, Okay,
expand on that. For For me, I found that really
really interesting because one of the things John, I really
like about you as a putting instructor and and listen,

(17:42):
all of us that are in this this realm of
tour instructor, coach, whatever it is, you know, from a
full swing standpoint, all of us in the full swing
world have very very kind of different ideas, different approaches.
One of the things I like, you know, and I've
had Phil Kenyon on the podcast before. I know, I know,
I see you Phil talk a lot. I think feels
fantastic at what he does. Phil is very much what

(18:04):
I would call there's a lot of mechanical technique work.
I rarely see you doing a lot of technical kind
of putting swing mechanic works like what the putter is doing.
I see you guys, you and and and and Justin Thomas,
Danny Willett, Camera Champ, all these superstars that you work with.

(18:26):
It's a lot more to me of visual feel and
situational reading of the greens is opposed to the mechanics.
So to me, it's it's more. I always think of
you working on more the execution part of things as
opposed to the technique part of the putting stroke. Yeah,

(18:48):
I think that's pretty fair. I I really try to
separate the idea of making pots from making a stroke
as two separate ideas, and and if I can get
them to make more pots, I think that's more beneficial
than making a better stroke necessarily. Um So I always
look at it through that lens of the the end
goal is to make more pots. If if the mechanical

(19:09):
work is the thing that has the greatest tie to
that goal, then okay, well that needs to get done.
But for most of the players out here that I
don't usually see that as the case. In terms of
the lowest hanging fruit. Usually the low fruit is reading
it better the art, getting the distance to match matching
speed and line. Certainly there are everybody has their little
stroke things or aim things that they could improve on,

(19:30):
But I generally find a faster benefit to creating a
more clearer picture of what needs to get done so
that then their athleticism history feel art can can just
deliver that. So one of the things one of the
things that I'm always talking about on the podcast, and
I always talk about with and and you you basically
hit the nail on the head in the full swing

(19:53):
world that people tend to come to see me on
a right from a playing standpoint, I always say to players, listen,
You're technique can always improve, and everybody's technique. Everybody's trying
to improve their technique. John Rom's trying to improve this technique.
Justin Thomas D. J Rory all the best players in
the world, they're trying to improve their technique, they still

(20:15):
have to be able to execute regardless of what their
technique is. And I think you're saying a little bit
of the same thing. Regardless of what your stroke looks like,
regardless of what your stroke does, you still have to
be able to get the ball in the hole. And
it can't just all be about putting mechanics, because I

(20:37):
think most golfers believe that the way they're going to
get better. I mean, I see this all the time.
I'm sure you see it, Johan. Somebody goes out and
has thirty eight pots. What do they do. They go
back and they put three and five ft pots for
an hour and they think that's going to help them
become a better putter. Yeah right. I mean one of
the things your listeners has to get very very clear

(20:58):
in their head. Uh. And I'm sure everyone has talked
about this that's been a putting coach that's been on
here is there's basically the three skills starting it online,
your stroke, reading it well, and hitting it the distance
you want. And most players don't have an equal skill
level of those three skills, one of them or two
of them is better than the other. If we had
a hypothetical golfer that had perfect start line and perfect

(21:21):
speed and the worst green reading imaginable, they could make
no pots. Ever, and so as you as you look
at the skills of a golfer, if the green reading
is poor, the better you make their stroke, the fewer
puts they actually will make. So you can't do it
in an order of Okay, well I want to make

(21:42):
more pots. Let's make sure these mechanics are okay, because
if you improve them and this stays poor, they actually
make last even though they feel better. Um, so like,
until each of the skills become a similar level, then
you move the whole group up as a as a unit.
That's when real long term, lasting benefit can occur, at
least least in my opini, So which is we usually
why I start on that side. If I usually the

(22:03):
stroke is functional, they can't get to the tour if
they can't generally started. Okay, if they want to get better,
they've got to figure out, Okay, what skill in my
week at let's shore that up and then move the
whole group as a unit. Uh. As we go forward
from there, I'm going to take a quick break to
talk about our friends l A Golf who are supporting
the show. We had their founder and CEO Read Dickens

(22:26):
on a couple of weeks ago. If you haven't had
a chance to check that one out, he talks about
some pretty cool stuff. He's had a pretty interesting and
unique life. But they have a new putter out handmade
in southern California. It's the first all carbon head and
allows for a fifty percent larger sweet spot. I'd hit it.
It's got a really really interesting feel, a lot of

(22:46):
anti vibration in the putter shaft. It's got a graphite
shaft which helps that putter stay nice and stable, and
then it's got the descending loft technology. Bryson to Shamboo
has been using this. It's got different loft at the
bottom than the top. So if you're one that leans
to handle forward, it's going to help you. If you're
one that leans to handle back a little so kind
of whatever you're putting stroke does, the descending law of

(23:08):
technology on the face is going to help you. So
it's got a bigger sweet spot, a lot of anti
vibration in the shaft, and then it's got a face
that's going to help you regardless of what your stroke
looks like. And it's pretty cool looking putter. You haven't
had a chance to check it out, you can go
over to l a golf dot co and learn more.
Now let's get back to John Graham. I worked at

(23:34):
the Austin Golf Club for a year and it was
Ben Crenshaw's home course in Austin, Texas. Not Austin Country
Club where they play the matchway, but a club outside.
And I watched Ben. He would put a lot, and
he would always have one ball, and the entire year
that I worked at the Austin Golf Club, sometimes he'd
go over to the putting green and put for two

(23:56):
three hours with one ball. John, I don't think I
ever saw him hit a pot inside of seven ft ever.
And he used to always say when I talked to
him about putting, he would always say, listen. He believed
that putters in general are obsessed with the line, with
the line and the read. And he said, if your

(24:19):
puts always have the right speed, how far away from
the whole are you ever really going to be unless
you are just unless you just have no zero aptitude
of looking at a hole and going in that direction.
And I think really good quality speed allows learning to

(24:41):
happen at a faster rate. If you're hitting the same
or similar type pot of similar distance with break with
the same speed, you will start to see a repetitive
curve start to show up that you can actually learn from.
If you're hitting multiple speeds from the same place, you
don't really learn what matches what because you don't ever
see the same thing often enough to learn from it. Um.

(25:01):
I think pattern recognition is a big deal. And and
and putters that are very artsy, we'll talk about that
quite a bit. It's like I had a put like
this six years ago and I kind of did something
like this and they called from it again and be like,
this is what it's gonna do. Where other people, I
think they forget that stuff. I remember reading that, you know,
with putting. I think the guys at t p I
were talking about this, the idea of of linear versus

(25:22):
non linear oft of people that putt and they see
straight line. So if the putt has if it's the
right to left pot and it's got x amount of
feed of break or x amount of inches of break,
they put to where they a straight line to where
they see the put would then start to go towards
the whole. And then you have putters who are nonlinear.

(25:44):
They see the ball going in a part of the whole.
That way, how can the listeners figure out which one
they are? And do you think there's it's better to
be one or the other. I don't think it's better
to be one or the other. Um. In my experience,

(26:05):
the majority of players that I deal with, if the
putter is pretty darned straight, Um, they're all nearly linear
in terms of their aiming something either inside the hole
on the edge, very straight, whatever the case may be.
And And the way that I would define those two
things based on what I see in the real world,
is a linear putter is someone who can uh choose

(26:28):
a read usually is thought next to the whole, communicate
that read to either you or I accurately, and then
actually aim there and hit it there. That's what I
would call a linear putter. There, the read that they
can communicate and the read that they see and feel
are the same. Everybody else I would call nonlinear, where
what they think they're about to do and what they
are actually about to do they don't match. So for example,

(26:51):
in in Garrick's case, we've just met a couple of
weeks ago. Yeah, Garrick keyGo, young South African player, a
lot of talent. You I just started working with him.
I knew you just started working with him as well. Correct.
So it's the day that we met. This is at Phoenix,
just a couple weeks ago. His caddies like, you know.
He tells me what his read is and I look
at us like he's not hitting it anywhere near where
he's reading it. I'm like, okay, well that's pretty normal.

(27:12):
Let's let's figure out what's going on. So I asked
Eric to read a pot and he put out a
spot next to the hole about six inches or so.
Then I said, okay, now what I want to do
with the same pot is roughly halfway to the whole
put a ball market down where you think this ball
should be when it reaches that point in time. So
I had asked him before, do you see the whole
curve of the pot, and he goes, oh, yeah, I
see the whole thing. Perfect, go ahead and put that

(27:34):
spot down. So after he puts the spot down and
comes back and looks at it, he's like something's not
right here. Okay, well, what is it that you see?
So well, the market that I put down where the
ball is gonna be halfway is already higher than the
read that I chose, And I'm like, yeah, that's pretty common.
Most most people don't really see and and match what

(27:56):
they're reading versus what they're feeling. Athleticism already knows and
and for you to get more comfortable in situations like that,
those two have to get a little closer together. So
Garrick for sure was a nonlinear person, very feel based,
learned it that way, but his brain is always thinking
in terms of a linear way, and he has chaos
because what his field thinks and what his brain thinks

(28:16):
they don't match. So his brain has to learn when
his feel already knows, so that when he gets over
a pot, it just makes more sense. So only the
guys that can truly read it and aim in the
same place there are the only guys who can use
a line and feel comfortable. Everybody else will be like, gosh,
the line feels good when it's really close or really straight,
everywhere else it feels bad. The reason is because what

(28:37):
they think they need and what they feel they need,
they don't match, which is why they always say it
looks terrible when I get over it looks great behind
it looks terrible when I get over it. That picture
of what Garrick was showing is what makes that happen.
I remember right after Jordans won the the US Open
out of Chambers Bay, we we played a practice I
think Brooks played a practice round with him at the

(28:57):
Open Championship at St. Andrew's and we were out there
and Cam Cameron was out with um with Jordan and stuff,
and he was looking at a pot and everything, and
Cameron was kind of behind him, and Jordan's said, um,
am I aiming that? So you know, Jordan kind of
told Cam where he was going to aim that aim it,
you know, based off of the read that he had

(29:18):
in his head. And so Cam got behind it and
he said, Jordan said, am I aiming that? Where I
where I told you I am? And Cam said yes,
And Jordan's said, is that the right read? And Cameron said,
that's a completely different conversation on whether that's right or wrong.

(29:38):
But where you're aiming is where you think you are aiming.
If that's the right aim for this type of put
He's like, that's open for debate. So I thought that
was interesting that and I asked Cam about it afterwards
and he said, a lot of the way that they
worked this was in fifteen when Jordan was winning everything,
and I think it's a little bit of what you

(29:58):
talked about earlier. Where he was aiming may not have
been the right answer, but he in his brain it
worked and he made everything. How so how do golfers?
I find putting to be just such a fascinating thing
because you go onto a putting green, and you and

(30:20):
I have talked about this. It's like people get on
a putting green and they turn into this alternative character
that they think they're supposed to be, where the movements
get really really slow, and the walking and the strokes
and the practice swings and if you look at all
of the ground. I mean, I remember asking Ricky Fowler
about what he thinks about with putting, and he said,

(30:40):
you know, honestly, I feel like right before I put
I black out. I don't think my brain just kind
of goes blank. I remember asking Brad Facts in that
as well. I said, to Facts, what do you think
about when you're putting? And he said. After I do
all my information gathering and I'm getting ready to put
he said, I find if I start thinking king, I

(31:01):
back out and get out of the way. My dad
is has always been throughout his life a great putter.
He and Tiger used to when they work together, at
the Wednesday of every major, they would have a putting contest.
And I used to watch my dad beat Tiger as
many times as Tiger beat him with a terrible stroke.
And you know, my dad's philosophy with putting has always

(31:21):
been there's only two outcomes. The ball is either going
to go in or it's not from five ft ten ft.
And he's like, so I asked him, what's what do
you think about when you're putting? And he's like, I
understand the question. He's like, I think about making it.
And he's like, are you thinking about something else? I
think so many golfers John spend so much time doing

(31:44):
everything they can possibly do to just try and not
three putt. There's never any fundamental process of trying to
make putts. How can players that are listening in golfers,
how can they get into a headspace to where they're
not putting so negatively and defensively and trying to put

(32:06):
more positively. Gosh, that's a great question. Um. I mean,
one of the things I would recommend would be two
do less putting to an actual hole while you're practicing either.
I prefer to put to an old hole where you
can still see the outline of the whole um. But
there's something about the actual hole itself in practice that

(32:29):
turns people from who they just gets the doesn't. It's like, well,
now I can only be judged either good or bad.
Where if I hit a put out kind of into
the abyss and it's like that, that's pretty close. It
feels okay, like a regular golf shot would feel. I
just kind of yeah, I had that pretty good. But
as soon as the hole gets involved, now it's like
your dad said, it's only make er miss And it's

(32:49):
the same thing with the statistic side of it. There's
no there's no good pot. There's a made pot and
a miss pot. There there is no other option. But
so so learning to practice the actual uh, the art
and the skill of it away from a hole, I
think it's the best way. They usually, you know, using
some kind of visual guy to get some feedback. As
far as this is what I thought the ball would do,
either put through a gate or something versus this is

(33:11):
what the ball actually did, but without a whole. I
often times have my guys put to ball. Markers are coined.
You see them all over the putting. I've seen you
do that. Yep, very very rarely do uh do my
guys practice to a whole unless they're practicing making, which
is a different part of practice than the skill of
practicing distance or practicing green reading or something else. Those

(33:31):
are separate skills that are important. Then when we want
to try to make a pot, obviously those skills have
to come together with a goal of making um. So
I think they should spend more time on the other
skills and then bring them together when it gets time
to practice making it. I remember again, going back to
Ben Crenshaw. He would talk a lot when he would

(33:52):
watch other people put He would he would use terminology
that we use in full swing. Someone would hit a pot,
and before he saw the outcome, he would say, that
had really good sound, that was a good that was
a good putt. This is before the this this could
be from twenty ft ten ft. But he would watch

(34:13):
someone hit a putt in the same sense when you
when you hit a good you know, if you're practicing,
you hit a good seven iron, you know if it's
a good shot or if it's not a good shot, right.
And I think one of my other favorite quotes that
I saw you post on Twitter was one of the
most frustrating parts about improving putting is seeing putts barely
miss right, because, like you said, putting it it's it's

(34:38):
there's a finality to it, right. You either hit one.
And that's where I think the great putters, you know,
and Ricky Fowler. You know, obviously he's not putting right
now the way he has in the past, But when
Ricky was at his best, when he was leading the
tour and putting, if he missed one, he'd kind of
look around, shruggers, shoulders, go back, put the putter in

(34:59):
the bag. He wouldn't go over and work on his stroke.
Do you think that the average golfer could improve by
spending I mean what percentage let's say a fifteen or
a twenty handicap john mechanics versus the technique, and the

(35:20):
mechanics versus the other elements of feel. Because do you
think you're born with feel in putting or do you
think it's something that you can learn? And what is
feel in putting? You know, because all the great putters
have great feel right, Yeah, no doubt. Now I think
feel definitely a learnable skill and it's and it it

(35:42):
has to be looked at in that way. Like when
I talked to Brad Facts and he talked about lots
of times purposely practicing China hit puts that would miss
high and short, something beyond the range where makable putt
could exist, so that he would get comfortable aiming as
far away from the whole as he could get it,
knowing that if I go a little bit further than that, Okay,

(36:03):
now I've gone too much. Most amateur golfers have no
idea where that boundary is, and they're afraid to aim
further and further away because it doesn't feel comfortable. With
the closer I into the whole, the more comfortable it feels.
Until they can get comfortable knowing how much room they
actually have. It's very difficult to make those choices when
the when the pressure is out. So the field question,

(36:25):
I think, you know, it's a great one. It's absolutely learnable. Um,
it just has to be practiced in a manner that
is related to that skill itself. Feel, for my opinion,
from what guys say, is the ability to make the
ball look the way they wanted to look as it's
rolling down the green in terms of speed, location, roll
type things like that. I've heard billions of stories, uh,

(36:47):
some similar things about Ben Crenchow where somebody was really struggling.
They went to go ask him, like, what are you
working on? Ben? It's like, I'm trying to make the
ball roll a little bit better. He's not working on
his stroke, he's not working on his technique or somethings like, OK,
he's watch the body because you see that one, that
one didn't roll just as well as the other one,
and he's trying to He's doing things that are feel based.
Because I don't know if they learn the technique is

(37:11):
just good enough and it doesn't necessarily matter, I don't
know how they get to a place where they're comfortable
um knowing that the feel is what's important. And I
think when players struggle with the other skills of pace
and green reading, how to practice them isn't really talked
about very much or talk very often, So the all
they have left to do is to go back and

(37:31):
take her with their struck. Because it's it's something that
is immediately changeable. They can see it immediately different outcome,
whether in terms of a feel or how they hold
it or a different looking putter. They can tinker with
something and get something different to come out. When it
comes to practicing and learning feel of distance and green reading,
that takes time, and it's not clear, and it's a
little bit cloudy and a little bit fuzzy, and it's

(37:52):
and and and again. It hasn't been talked about very
much or very well in terms of how do I
actually get better at these things. I just I thought
I could either just do it or I can't do it,
And I just don't believe that probably you can practice
it for sure. Yeah, I mean I think if you
look at you know, one of the things that that
I talked to you about, and one of the things
that i've ramans the putting, what's the what's coct put

(38:14):
the perfect putter where it's like a ramp that you
roll puts down, it's got a laser on. When I work,
it doesn't matter if they're regular golfers or people trying
to pay play competitively. It's a generalization, but I see
more players underread potts then over read putts. Why, John,

(38:37):
do you think that is? Well, you know, if you've
got a left or right put that's got some break
to it. Why do you think pretty much most of
the time players are going to under read it. Do
you think it's just a comfort level of not wanting
to aim away from the whole because they're so close
to it. Yeah, I think that's I think that's the
number one cause I agree with you. I don't think

(38:57):
there is a pro side, like everybody just misses it's
it's just it's when it comes to the math, it's
only that you're you know, listeners might enjoy is it's
actually you have to make a larger mistake in terms
of your read and start line to actually miss it
high than you do to actually miss it low. So

(39:17):
in terms of probability, it's more likely that you're gonna
miss low because you have that you can make a
smaller mistake and still miss it much more low. To
actually miss it high, you have to play so much
more break than most people think. And then right, and
then it's incredibly uncomfortable, like there's there's just no way
and um, you know, well, I had a drill the

(39:39):
I have a lot of my players do where all
and it's similar to the one I mentioned Brad Factson did.
Would be to purposely try to hit puts that you
have normal speed but almost try to lip out on
the high edge or just lip in on the high edge.
See if you can figure out where that boundary is. Perfect.
Putter is also great for that of showing people you know,
you can actually hit it way way way out here

(40:00):
and still be okay. Um I I I certainly think
it's it's a combination of of not being comfortable aiming
away and the ability to well, if I hit it
less high, I can also hit it harder, which will
be a little bit more comforting because I don't have

(40:21):
to make such a ginger move. So then they'll aim
a little low, hit a little harder. Try to make
that difference up the dreaded um putting yips. I mean, obviously,
as someone that works a lot in the putting realm,
do you believe in the putting yips? Do you think
it's real? Do you? Why do you think it happens?

(40:41):
How can people? Because I mean I get questions all
the time. I'm sure you just must get inundated social
I've got the yips. How do I what do you
think happens? And how can people that are listening that
struggle with that, how can they overcome that? I do
think they exist. I don't think it's a neurological disorder.
I think it's I think it's a reaction to an

(41:03):
expect or to an expectation in terms of a type
of mess. So, I think it starts mechanically where their
stroke is off enough that if they don't do something
that the ball is going to go somewhere either right
or left. And over time they pick up on that
fact and they'll be like, Okay, well I know if
I don't do something, it's gonna miss this way. So
then they start to make an adjustment mid stroke to

(41:24):
make it not miss that way. UM. And if it
gets to a point where the adjustment is bigger than
the original mistake, now they try to readjust it again.
And that's where they is usually gonna come from. It's
a it's a it's a double attempt to try to
fix and then save a mechanical issue that they usually have. UM.
So I've never. I've never had anybody that had a

(41:45):
yet that I couldn't help fairly quickly. It's usually something
very specific in their technique that either you can adjust
with how they're holding it, because usually usually the adjustment
is happening in one of the two hands, the right
hands trying to save it or a bit or the
left hands trying to save it and help it. Once
you figure out which hands doing the dirty work, you
try to minimize its ability to actually move the club,

(42:08):
and usually things can send with out fairly quickly. You know, John,
if I give your phone number out on this podcast
right now, you just said that you've never had had
anybody come to you that had the hips and you
couldn't fix. I mean, you realize your phone's not going
to stop, you know, ringing? Um, I do and and
and it's probably only like ten people that I've ever known,
But as as the race of those ten people, it's

(42:28):
have had no problem with it. I hear a lot
when when players come to me and you ask them,
you know, they're trying to play, they're trying to get
on tour, they're trying to they say, what type of
putter are you? I always find it interesting. The people
that are great putters will tell you they're a great putter, right.
Someone that's a great driver of the golf ball or
a great ball striker will tell you. But what we

(42:49):
hear a lot and I hear a lot of you know,
what type of putter? Are you? Streaky? I'm streaky putter.
You know, I have these spells to where I put
really really well. And then there's times when I what
to you is a streaky putter? And how to somebody that,
like you said, there were obviously there were great putters
on the PGA Tour. We know who they are. You

(43:10):
kind of identify them by name. You know, Tiger was
an amazing putter, Brad Faxton was an amazing putter. Jordan's
was an amazing putter, right, And then you have players
that when they're putting is good, they really really do well.
How can you help a player that's a streaky putter, because,
like you said, you can't get to the PGA Tour
and be a bad putter. I mean, at some point

(43:32):
in your life, if you've got a PGA Tour card,
whether you were a junior or college player, there was
a time to where you putted lights out otherwise you
can't get to the tour. So how do you take
that player that says there are a streaky putter and
help them get to where they're a good putter. That's
a good question. I mean, more often than not, what

(43:53):
I have found is the players that are streaky UM,
the we that they're streaky, they end up with more
of a certain put type than another. UM similar to
like iron shots, they just end up with good numbers
that week, and they're not trying to like trying to
flight it or trying to so they've got a bunch
of right to lefters, the right to lefters, and they're

(44:14):
just draining them and no problem. It's usually not very
special as to what makes them streaky. They just end
up with easier puts that time. Now, certainly the ones
that I find that are good versus the ones that
are streaky, UM are good from all over the place
up hill, right to left, uphill left, or it doesn't
really matter where they're putting from. They can do okay.
Streaky putters are usually good in in certain locations and

(44:37):
really not good in other locations. So you've got to
try to figure out where they're really struggling. Is it downhill,
left to right? Is it whatever the case may be. Um,
so that uh, they can they can work through it.
It's it's usually it's usually related to that's that that
read difference between what they think they want and what
they feel they want. Where when puts are very straight,

(44:58):
that difference doesn't happen. And then when you get a
lot more break or downhill break, it really gets exposed. Currently,
you know, in two on the PGA tour around the world,
when you look at put who are your who are
your top five putters in the world right now that
you look out and you go this guy, these are

(45:20):
the top five putters on the PGA tour that are
they are in in a category that separates themselves in
the same sense that you look at great ball strikers,
great short games. But when you look at it, you know,
as someone that works with some of the best players
in the world, you know you work with players that
are winning all the time. Who are your top five
best putters right now? Gosh, I that's a dangerous question

(45:44):
to answer. Um. Uh, one guy that I that I
would put on the list is Denny McCarthy. I mean,
he puts lights out, man like Um, when Jordan is
putting well, Jordan is incredibly good. When g Mac is
putting well, Gene is incredibly good. Um. I mean Justin Rose,

(46:05):
I would say, has made the biggest improvement of someone
that really struggled to someone that is now quite good. Um.
I truly believe Justin is going to be in that
group as as time goes on. Has he's improved significantly
since we met, hasn't shown up as much as we
would like. It's usually show likes. He's so far only
put it really really well in Majors, um, and then

(46:25):
last week of Real you put it really well. Um.
And a couple of others. But I mean Danny McCarthy
is the one that I continually kind of stare at
and watch. Um. I was very curious to see how
he would adapt with a notebook because he was a
big book user. Um. And he's still putting quite well. Uh.
When Danny Willett is on, he is incredibly good. Yeah,

(46:48):
I would, I would. I would go with that group there.
You know, I think one of the things I find
interesting if you look at golf from my my uncle
Billy said this once about golf swings. He said, you know, everybody.
This was, you know, kind of in the Tiger ero
when Tiger was at his best, and you know, Adam
Scott had the same type of golf swing and everybody
was trying to have that kind of picture perfect golf swing.
And he said, you know, if you look at some

(47:10):
of the best ball strikers of all time, Lee Trevino,
you know, open stance, took it outside, dropped it under
hail erwin clothes, took it inside, came over it. I've
always found it interesting that Jack Nicholas is probably one
of the greatest putters of all time with a very
very idiosyncratic move, and said, why doesn't anybody try and

(47:35):
copy that? Because you would think Jack Nicholas, being arguably
one of the greatest, if not the greatest player of
all time, he and Tiger, you could throw that up.
But why do you think that nobody would look at
what Jack did and say, I'm gonna try and do that.
The only thing I can come up with, because I've
I've thought about this quite a bit, is I I

(47:56):
wonder if people that have tried it then think it
could handle the green speeds that we have nowadays. The
idiosyncratic move that he have. It's a little kind of
hunchy and poppy. Um just may not be precise enough
for the tolerances that we're dealing with. The speed comes
off just a little bit hot. Now it's six ft
by instead of three. Um, that would that would be

(48:19):
my main gas. Like like putting strokes completely evolved once
the green speed's got out of hand, like nobody except
for Seneger can exist anymore in in a popping way.
My dad talks a lot about when he played the
tour in the early you know, late sixties, early seventies.
He said, you know, we really only got decent greens
a couple of times a year, and if you played

(48:40):
in a major. And one of the things I think
that the fans don't realize is they look at how
much time golf takes, but I think agronomy and how
fast they're getting the greens, how tight they're putting them.
You know, it used to be Friday Saturday, so that
you get the four and three right right, four from

(49:03):
the front, three from the right, you know, really really
tucked pains. Now that's basically every pin on the p
g A tour, and the green speeds are off the charts. Um,
do you think that agronomy has changed putting and it's
evolved the way players put and their strokes evolved. Absolutely.

(49:26):
I I think it's the number one reason why putting
strokes have evolved to the manner that they kind of
look now where the softer faces came from, like taking
the metal out of it and putting something in the
middle to try to take some the ball speed out.
I mean, the putter is already that the hottest club
of anyone in the bag. You know, generally, if if
a smash factor with a driver, you're looking for a

(49:48):
one point five, most hutters are somewhere one point six
to one point seven. So what any mistake that you're making.
The speed of the club is dramatically influenced on the
speed of the ball, and in a bigger sense than
any other club in the in the in the bag.
So if as the green speeds have gotten faster because
of the improvements of agronomy and grass types and so

(50:08):
on and so forth, uh, the tolerances that the players
have to deal with now continue to shrink. Um. So
I think it's the number one cause. To be honest,
I know you're a big ping guy. You pick up
some of those great old ping answers. You know, they
are so light. You know Nikki Price, I he's he's

(50:29):
I spent some time around him. He plays at at
my club, the Floridians. He talks a lot about how
how much heavier putters are now versus the putters that
they used to put with. You know Ben Crenshaw, I've
picked up his old gamer. I mean, it's so light.
Do you think the weight of the putters has also

(50:51):
changed as a result of the agronomy? Yeah, I mean
I think most people have a have a a slight
misconception of weight related to speed. There's no question if
you look at just the math and the physics of
a heavier and more massive putter will make the ball
come out faster versus a lighter one. But the piece

(51:12):
that I think most people miss is the heavier putter
is harder to move quickly, and it's more comfortably to
move slowly. So as the greens have gotten faster, the
putters have gotten heavier, so that a player can make
a shorter, softer stroke. More simply, a super light putter
is incredibly difficult to move a short distance slowly. Um
So like the Lighter putters are great for slower greens.

(51:35):
British open you know things about nature or or the past. Uh,
you almost need a heavier putter now, just so you
can feel a stroke that still feels like a stroke,
but still make the ball not go very far. I
think that the way that now, with all the movable
weights and all of the things that putters can do,
it's it's it's amazing how much they've changed. When you

(51:57):
look at probably the greatest putter of of our lifetime,
Tiger Woods, he was he was such an amazing that
was such an amazing part of his d n A
as a player, Joan as someone that spends so much
time in putting. When you look at Tiger and you
you watched him, what do you think made him such

(52:19):
an amazing person on the green? I think it boils
down to the phrase he would always say, which was
gonna you gotta put your picture. The quality of his
picture was as good as there comes, and then all
he tried to do was just put to the picture
matches feed to the line that he had in his head.

(52:40):
He was obviously one of the best screeners of all time.
When his speed was matching, he just made and it
never It wasn't ever like trying to make a stroke.
It was always he always talked about after the picture
to the picture matched my stroke to the picture. UM.
I think if there's anything that listeners can take away,
is that the quality of the picture that you can

(53:02):
produce relative to what's really going to happen. UM. I
think is the number one contributor to putting skill. When
I talked to very good putters from the past, now,
it's the quality and the clearness and the conciseness of
the picture they think they need both in terms of line, speed, direction,
all of those things that they can just draw right out.

(53:23):
This butt is going to do this, and all as
I have to do is just let myself let that
picture come out. It's almost like their painting. I mean,
they're they're trying to visualize a canvas. They're like they're
drawing something on it. Then they make a move that
is barely thought out to try to just draw this
picture out. And his ability to do it when it
mattered the most, that's a whole another level of picture

(53:48):
trust than than I've ever experienced. But I think it
comes down to just that that one single phase. Yeah,
because I've always thought that as instructors we teach putting awards,
we start players with mechanics first and get their stroke
to have really really repetitive stroke, and then we you know,

(54:10):
we kind of take them to the green and stuff
like that. But where is you would think that it
would just take just my dad always says, hey, you
can't put unless you're comfortable, so getting your hands on
the putter. The way that's comfortable, regardless of what you're
set up is get comfortable in your set up. And
you know, when you when you roll balls on a green,

(54:31):
you don't really think of anything. I mean, you're not
gonna dramatically. If someone gave you five balls to roll
twenty ft, you're not gonna I mean, unless you don't
have any eye hand coordination, you're not going to be
massively out and you're gonna be able to adjust off
of the first one that you rolled with your hands
and somebody said, hey, roll five balls from twenty ft

(54:54):
the first one. You're probably gonna feel like after you
get a gauge on the first one, you feel like
you could will we make the other ones with no practice? Right,
It's not like we all spend a lot of time
practice rolling balls on a green. Johan, if you could
design a putter from scratch, if you could take a
player that had never putted before and they said, all right, John,

(55:16):
this is a complete blank canvas. You get to design
this putter, and you can teach them one skill and
one skill only. What would that one skill be? Uh,
it would be the h m hmm it would it
would be it the green beating piece, or at least

(55:37):
the the what what does the ball actually need to
look like when it rolls? I know, I think we've
talked about this before. Uh and and James Hank has
actually done some of this where I've said, if you know,
if I had a group of junior golfers that have
never played before, I would give them one of those
perfect putters and each one of them and be like, here,
take this to the putting green and just play with it.
Roll this ball down the ramp and just learn what

(55:58):
the ball does. Um. If there's any skill in golf
that is as close as an amateur can get to
a pro, it's hitting the ball with a putter like
their very first try. They're gonna make the ball react
the exact same way that a professional has been doing
it for twenty years will on their first try, and
no other part of golf can that happen. So if
they can get an idea of what the ball needs

(56:18):
to do, learning how to make the ball do that
is really not all that challenging, but the experience, in
time and wisdom it takes to get the reps to
see the ball move, which is really what the perfect
putter is doing. It's just giving you way more reps
from an angle that you can actually see better at
you roll out here, roll out there, watch what it does.
Make it go faster, make it go slower. Um, it

(56:38):
would be I don't know what that skill is, but
it would be the experience of seeing the ball roll more. Lastly,
as as a big aim point guy, as a big
green reading guy, there's a constant debate when we go
to certain golf courses. When we go to the desert
out in Palm Springs, the Indio effect, when we go
to Vegas, the Valley effet act. I see, you know,

(57:01):
you know the social media people that they you know,
somebody says, you know, the the commentator says, that's gonna
break towards the downtown of Vegas is gonna break towards India.
You have players that have won those tournaments who one
hundred percent believe that there is that effect, and then
people like yourself will go it's all bullshit. Doesn't have

(57:22):
any any effect at all. A geographical location has no effect.
Why do you think players bought into that had success
with it when a lot of people think it's one
hundred percent factually not true, because it doesn't have to

(57:43):
be factually uh not true to be beneficial to the player.
The player is dealing with the environment as they see it,
the fact that they have a difficult time because the
designer has paid lots and lots of money to make
it hard to see well, because they can't see it well,
and they have this ability to say, well, I can't

(58:04):
see this breaking to the left, but I know that
I've seen it do it before, and the valley is
over there, or downtown Phoenix is over there, a race
creek is over there, or whatever landmark they want to
use is there to give them that extra little bit
of information that I really can't see this doing this today,
but I saw it happened last time. I'm gonna play

(58:24):
a little bit for that little valley effector a little downtown,
a little race creek. I think it's it's specific optical
challenges that the designer has used to trick golfers into
not being able to see what's real. So the fact that,
so do you believe in any of that? Do you
think that race Creek, the valley, Indio, all these things

(58:45):
that we hear, do you I think that it's all
bullshit and it's not real. Well, those areas don't pull
the golf ball, but there's no question that those areas
can help a player make a better choice because they
can't see it on their own them. So the math
side of me knows that there's no additional gravity at

(59:07):
downtown Phoenix or in the valley or Raised Creek. However,
the art piece of me knows that if a golfer
can't see it and that information helps to make a
better choice, than it's valuable and it can't be discarded
in that way. The fact that it's not actually doing it,
but it's helping the golfer make a better choice, that's
that's perfectly valid in my in my view, So I

(59:29):
think it can both be non factual and beneficial at
the same time. I said it was the last question.
I've got to ask you. How many kids do you have? John?
I have four kids, four kids from the ages of
what's the youngest to the oldest, thirteen to nineteen, thirteen
to nineteen. Do you have cable TV in your house yet? Uh? No,

(59:56):
But but we haven't. We have advanced to YouTube TV,
which is basically the same thing, and that was only
to be able to watch more golf. You you you
your kids grew up with really not watching television, correct,
that's I have. I have never been in a hotel
room and turned on the television, unless it was to

(01:00:20):
watch golf. That's got That can't be true. That is true.
You've never turned on the TV in your hotel room
watched one of my players play. Now. I don't know.
I'm on my iPad, I might be in my computer.
I'm doing I'm doing something visual, playing a game, looking
something out whatever. But to just sit and watch TV,

(01:00:42):
that's never been my thing. I'll watch a movie. I
like movies. But no, I never turned the TV out.
I remember you told me that probably ten years ago,
and I thought you were absolutely crazy. We still had
antenna on our TV until a year ago. You still
had a television with Antenna's until two years ago, last year,
last year. Yeah, that's that is not surprising given how

(01:01:06):
well that I've gotten to know you. Listen, I think
you're doing an amazing job. I mean you've been a
part of the success of Justin Thomas, Danny Willits winn tournaments,
camera champ. I mean, what are your goals asn't as
a as a putting coach and as a putting instructor
moving forward? You know, as information? I mean, we've never
had more access to information. I love the fact that

(01:01:28):
you keep talking. I hear you say art as much
as because I know you're a big numbers guy, right,
I mean you could sit here all day and and
talk about numbers and the data and stuff. But that
mix of the art and the data, what are you
trying to do and and and as an instructor and
what what what's the future hold for you? I mean

(01:01:49):
it's it's pretty simple. Um. The goal is to just
get the ball in the hole more often. And however
that needs to happen based on the person in front
of me is how I approach it. Uh, And And
I'm not I'm not married to any particular idea. I'm
comfortable with the fact that I can say something to
one person and say the exact opposite of someone else
and be beneficial to both of them. Um. It's it's

(01:02:12):
all about the result in the performance for me. UM.
I would say my biggest goal is that the improvement
is is sustainable and it's not fleeting. That somebody actually
gets better and then continues to stay better after I'm
long and gone, and they can tell somebody else and
they can get better. That that the information is is
useful enough to be generational. UM. And I wanted as

(01:02:36):
many different people to win as possible. That's certainly, uh,
certainly my goal Like last year had nine different people
whin Uh. This year, I'm hoping for double digits. But
and that's crossed like a whole bunch of tours. That's
Latin corn ferry, LPG everything. Um. But it's you know,
I tell a lot of my younger players that are
either rookies or or or or close to it, that

(01:02:58):
if if I can do my job well, I should
be able to change the life of your children. Uh.
And that's and that's really what I'm looking to do,
that that they can make enough more money now that
their children's lives will be better because of whatever help
I've been able to give. Them. Well, I think you're
doing a great job. And and all joking aside. I know,
I always joke with you about the tweet up at
the Wryder Cup. You're you know, you're there at the

(01:03:19):
Wryder Cup, and I said to you, it's a long time.
It's been really really fun to see kind of your
career evolve and to go from kind of being this
obscure kind of aim point guy to being entrusted with
some of the most recognizable figures in golf. I mean,
I think it's a testament to your work ethic and
too the knowledge you have in that crazy brain of yours.

(01:03:41):
And it's uh, it's fun to uh, it's fun to watch,
and it's always you know, I love the fact that
I can ask you a question and you'll always give
me a really really interesting, informed answer. And it's fun
because I mean, your brain works so different than mine.
And you know, I can't thank you enough for you know,

(01:04:01):
all the help you've given me, because it's been fun,
fun to pick your brain. Well, I I have to
return that because it wasn't it wasn't that long ago.
Maybe it was when Ernie won the British or something
that you we were talking about the importance of winning,
that that that that's what we're here for to help
players win. Um, And I think that was actually a
little bit of a turning point in my mind between

(01:04:22):
you know, my numbers and data side of Okay, well
that's that's useful information for me. But if it doesn't
make a player win, which is what my the coach's
job is, what what good does it really what? Because
it really do so so part of that change in
my philosophy or experiences, if you will, or um, you know,
senator around that idea because everyone in a while, I

(01:04:42):
don't know if you remember, I used to text you
it's like, yeah, it is about winning, about you know,
if you're gonna work with with people that play golf
for a living, it is about winning. You can make
all the changes you want, but if the changes aren't
gonna help them win at the end of the day,
if the golf swing looks better and they don't win,
it's not making a difference, right, even if they feel

(01:05:02):
like their statistics are better, if they're not winning, it's
not it's not winning, you get you're there to win. Well,
thanks for taking the time to talk to me, Um,
and I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure that I get
you an old television with some antennas because I know
you're missing your your your television with the antennas. Appreciate
it again. So that was John Graham, And listen, if

(01:05:28):
I got some time and I'm on the putting green
or I'm on the driving range, definitely try and pick
his brain because he's got some unbelievable stuff with putting,
and I love the way he explains putting. It's a
combination of art, it's a combination of science. But I
really thought it was interesting there at the end where
he was talking about the fact that you know, if
he can help players make more putts, that's the goal.
And hopefully everybody got something out of it, because I

(01:05:50):
think everybody is trying to put better. UM. Questions for
this week, UM, Obviously after last week, a lot of
questions about Daniel burr her five shot lead. What's the
process of getting over it? Um? If you didn't watch,
Daniel Burger had a five shot lead going into the
final round of the Honda Classic was unable to get

(01:06:10):
it done. It was tough to watch. I mean, Burger
had played so good through three rounds. I thought it
was really interesting. If you didn't see the telecast, they
were interviewing the great Jack Nicholas about some other things,
and they asked him about the fact that what's it
like playing with a big league and and Jack was
arguably one of the greatest golfers of all time, said
he never really liked having a big lead. He liked

(01:06:32):
feeling like he was in the mix because it was hard.
I think playing from the front is hard. I mean,
I think a lot of golfers like to chase, and
when you've got that big lead, you kind of feel
like if you make any mistakes, you're letting. I think
a lot of players back into it. That's kind of
what we saw happened. I mean we we we saw
Shane Lowry come out and and play fantastic, and all
of a sudden, a five shot lead turned into no

(01:06:54):
lead at all for Daniel Burger. Um. I didn't see
it coming. I thought, I thought, Burger, um, give and
what I know, you know how I know him, you know,
ultra ultra confident Um certainly not afraid of the big stage,
and um, you know it's frustrating to watch. I know
he's going to be frustrating, but listen, he's he's got
world class game. UM, he's gonna have other chances to

(01:07:16):
win tournaments. So UM, you'll see Daniel Berger again. Uh,
not going to be surprised. What makes a good caddy
a coach and what makes a good player. Um. I
think the role of the modern UH tour caddy is
is largely um, unappreciated. Um, it's a job, it's a skill. Um.

(01:07:40):
And you know anybody that thinks that you can just
go out on on tour and and I know that
there are a segment of the population that say players
could play good with regardless of who's on the bag.
And yeah, you could say that, I just know that
they don't. I know that every player that wins on
the PGA tour has a caddy on their bag, whether
it's their long term caddy, whether it's a caddy for

(01:08:02):
a week, whether it's a caddy that they will eventually
one day fire. I mean, listen, all caddies are gonna
get fired at some point. But players use caddies for
a reason. And I'm lucky enough to spend time around
UM the caddies and and and I think, you know,
there's some of the best in the world at what
they do. And I think at the elite level having
a great caddy. UM. I wouldn't say it can make

(01:08:25):
or break a player, but UM, I definitely think having
a good caddy UM can help a player improve and
help a player when they get under the gun. So, UM,
what's it take to be a great caddy? UM? A
lot of that is dependent on who they're caddying for
and what the player needs and what the player wants. UM.

(01:08:46):
I think one of the things to be a great caddy.
UM it goes along the lines of what it takes
to be a great coach. It's something that my father
always said, UM. I think it's what you don't say
as a coach and as a caddy sometimes can be
more important than what you do say. UM. I think
caddies don't get um enough credit for not panicking out

(01:09:08):
there when their player maybe hits the wrong shot or
maybe is in a little bit of a crisis. And
I think having a voice in your head as a
caddy that can that can calm you. Maybe it's a joke.
Maybe it's a thing that you say. Maybe it's pulling
the bag over and given the yardage again and reassuring

(01:09:29):
the player, UM, and then carrying that damn golf bag.
I mean, it's amazing to me that in all the
manufacturers can't make golf bags that are a little heavier.
I think if everyone that's listening, if they had to
carry a PGA Tour golf bag, um and play a
practice round on Monday and a practice round on Tuesday,

(01:09:49):
and a pro am on Wednesday, and then caddy Thursday, Friday,
Saturday and Sunday. I know I've tried to do it.
I caddy for Brooks kept go in. UM. We did
nine holes when I worked with him a couple of
years ago. Ricky Elliott, his long term caddy was was
not there and I did it for nine holes and
my body was trashed and was a wreck. So UM,

(01:10:09):
I don't think caddies get nearly enough credit, um for
the jobs that they do. I'm gonna try and get
more of them on the pod because I think the
perspective they have um is is second to none when
it comes to UM looking um at the game of golf.
Let's see anybody better at chipping the Shane Lowry I

(01:10:33):
think if you looked at at the Honda Classic last week, UM,
Shane Lowry short game I think is as good, if
not better than anybody on the PGA Tour. I don't
think he gets nearly the credit. Um his short game is.
If if I could choose a players short game, I

(01:10:53):
think it's a toss up on the PGA Tour right
now between him and Patrick Reid. I mean, Patrick Reid's
is legit and and just has a filthy short game.
But big Shane, Um, what a short game. And UM,
it's it's unbelievable, all field based. Um, the creativity. He
can hit it high, he can hit it low, he
can spin it, he cannot spend it. And um, you

(01:11:16):
know he has got legit, legit short game tips to
give an amateur around course management in order to lower scores.
You hear me talk about it all the time. But
great example of the handa last week young player that
I just started working with this year, Garrick Keego, who
I think. Garrick has legit, legit game, hits the golf

(01:11:38):
ball miles um finished probably in the midst you know,
towards the back of the pack last week. One triple
and three double bogies for the week, Um, everybody, that's
nine shots if my math is correct, which I think
it is, and you just can't give away those shots.
And it's the difference if if Garrick looks at you know,

(01:11:58):
the triple and the double city has, and if he
just turns those into bogeys, the difference in where he
finishes in the golf tournament is vastly different than finishing
at the back of the pack as opposed to finishing
kind of that mid maybe you know, inside the top thirty.
And you'll hear me continue to say this. Stop making

(01:12:19):
double and triple bogies. Your scores, regardless of your handicap range,
will improve. It's the single biggest way that you can
improve your handicap. You can go from breaking hundred for
the first time breaking poor. If you eliminate those big numbers.

(01:12:40):
It's the single easiest and fastest way for your game
to improve. Hopefully, if you listen to the podcast all
the time, you're tired of hearing me say that, but
I'm going to keep saying it. Stop making double and
triple bogies. Off course with Claude Harmon comes to you
every Wednesday. We will see you next week. A batch

(01:13:03):
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