Mark Blackburn Interview: The key to Max Homa’s recent success, how the desire for distance has impacted instruction and the importance of finding the right match for your game

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
It's episode forty four of of Course with Claude Harmon,
comes to you every Wednesday. This week's guest, Mark Blackburn
in PG of America Teacher of the Year, works with
Maxsoma on the PGA Tour. Mike, we're on the PGA
Tour champions and one of the really really good instructors
out there on the PGA Tour. Um has a really

(00:31):
unique take on how the body and the swing work
as one, and I think um I've listened to a
bunch of the seminars and I really really like a
lot of the things he has to say about the
golf swing. Before we get to Mark, I wanted to
talk to you about Cobra Golf. I've said that before.
I've been with Cobra Golf for a number of years
and I'm excited to have them supporting the podcast. Their

(00:52):
new ltd X driver went straight in my back when
I got it right around the first of the year.
Low spin for faster ball speeds, lended with extreme forgiveness
and distance, and that's what I think everybody's looking forward.
There's there's the l t d X l S driver,
which is low spin. So if you're someone that wants
to try and bring that spin down. That's the driver

(01:13):
for you. And then the ltd X Max driver, which
is the most forgiving in the lineup. It's gotta wait
um at the heel, which is gonna help you if
you need to draw the golf ball. It combines the
extreme forgiveness of lt d X and an adjustable weight
in the heel. And if you really want to have
that little draw shape, you're looking for a driver that
has a little bit more draw bias, that's the one

(01:35):
for you. You're gonna see all the players in the
Cobra lineup using these new drivers. If you want to
check it out, you can go to Cobra golf dot com,
backslash l t d X. And now let's get to
Mark Blackburn. My guest today is Mark Blackboard, the p

(01:58):
g A of America Teacher of the Year. Market. Um,
those those kind of a words always are pretty special. Um,
when you started teaching after trying to play, did you
think that you could maybe one day achieve something like that. Uh,
that's not really how I started. Obviously, I started because

(02:18):
I wanted to learn why I hadn't been successful, and
it was one of those things I guess is the
journey continued and you've got to be a little bit
more successful as a coach. I think some of the
sort of rewards and those other accolades they just kind
of accumulate. I think it's one of those things where
you're trying to be successful and create like the best

(02:39):
information for people, and then as they get better, you'd
like to think because of some of your involvement. Um,
then I think you get some of those things along
the way. So it's not that wasn't the goal. It
just those are some one of the things that like
just occurred over time. Seemed to have been doing a
pretty good job of players. So how long you've lived

(02:59):
in the US now? Almost twenty years? Came in nine. Yeah,
so I've been here a long time. I'm an English
redneck as we like to say, so I've lived in
all over the South. Um. I went to school in Alabama,
then Mississippi, got married in Orleans, and then moved back
to Alabama. So the South has been really really good

(03:22):
to me. That people are fantastic. I'm here at Graystone
now and this place has been fantastic since two thousand
and fourteen. I started here and these guys have provided
me such a great opportunity. So I'm a big fan
of the South. You tried to play. I actually, in
doing some research, I didn't realize you were an alternate
in the two thousand and two US Open at best page. Yeah,

(03:45):
I mean that's I mean when you think about, you know,
a playing career, I mean, you know, a lot of instructors.
I wasn't one of them, obviously, but a lot of
instructors had that playing career and stuff. When did when
did you realize that you wanted to try and play
professional golf as kind of what you thought you wanted
to do in life. When I was even in college,

(04:05):
I mean, I think you aspire. I was very naive
now looking back on it, but it was one of
those things ignorance is bliss type deal where you think
that you could do it, and you hit certain shots
you think yeah, and I used to hit it a
long way back then, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I
can do this, And then when you really get into
it and you start playing, you realize it's a lot
more difficult. But I guess it was in high school. Um.

(04:28):
And then when I in high school back in the UK,
I was probably more often on the golf course than
I ever was in the classroom, which in the big
picture has probably not been a detriment. But if you
looked at my transcript in certain subjects you might say otherwise.
But um, I kind of always wanted to do it,
and it was something I was passionate about. But I
would say even at a younger age, I was fascinated

(04:51):
by instruction, like all my books, Like I would I
thought I had the mindset back then you grew up
in the lad Better Foulo days that you have to
have this perfect golf and I kind of memorized Lead
Betters linked book and you know, all of those things.
So I was always into golf instruction, and so I
think that I knew that's what I wanted to do.
I didn't really have a very good roadmap or framework

(05:13):
thought I knew, and now looking black, I was utterly clueless.
You know, it's interesting. I mean, you know, David Ledbetter
is one of the greatest golf instructors of all time.
I mean, I think he and my dad are kind
of on the mountain rushmore of of modern golf instruction.
And think sometimes you know, with lad at this stage
of his career. He's an easy guy for a lot
of the young instructors to kind of point their finger

(05:36):
at and pull holes and say, oh, it was method
and stuff like that. But I think what a lot
of people don't realize is the work that that Lead
and Nick Faldo did. It revolutionized golf instruction at the
tour level. Because before that, you you, yeah, you maybe
had an instructor, but I mean Lead was the guy
that basically helped all of us do what we do.

(05:57):
He paved the road. And I think it's it's sad
that I see sometime on on social media and staff
and it's like your Lad's you know, people don't realize
how great an instructor he was. Yeah, for sure, I
think that people always tend to criticize but don't realize,
like these guys laid the framework and the ground for
us to be able to actually make a career, and

(06:19):
I think we owe them a huge, huge debt of gratitude.
And it's like I always say to everybody, you never
know the relationship between a player and a coach, and
you never know what's actually being said, and so people
players interpret information that may not be what Lead said
in a given situation, and I think he's had lots
of success, and we know that when you're successful, it's

(06:42):
much easier for people to criticize and pull you down.
And at the same time, I think that's also an
acknowledgement that you're doing some good things right, So being
successful was not a popularity contest. I think David really
made people understand that, hey, your golf technique is probably
quite significant, and so that something I'm grateful for. I
wouldn't live in the house I live in now and

(07:04):
be able to do the wonderful things I did if
it wasn't for the likes of David Ledbetter, who made
coaching golf instruction something that would be, you know, where
you can make a nice living. You went to the
last couple of years, you went to Southern Mississippi and
I read you got a degree and exercise science and coaching. Now,
for a lot of athletes, that sounds like one of

(07:26):
those bullshit degrees where you just kind of showed up,
you didn't do anything, but actually knowing you and knowing
how your brain works and all the stuff you've done
with the guys at the title is performance Institute. How
many seminars you've taught for them. The degree you got
was actually an enormous opportunity for you to now do
what you do from an exercise science background, understanding what

(07:48):
the body does and all of the things now that
you kind of bring to the way you try and
work with players. Yeah for sure, And I wish that
I'd probably paid a little more attention in classes now
than I did back then. But yeah, for sure. It's
one of those things where I kind of was able
to fuse the playing side of it. So the perspective
of LOK golf is all about shooting a score, like

(08:10):
how do I get guys to shoot lot of scores?
But they're understanding, hey, what's the coaching approach to that?
And now what from a physiological approach, what's their body
gonna basically allow them to do? And I think that
that's become really popular now with things like matchups. But
essentially that's kind of what we've been doing for like
twenty years. When you look at how somebody moves, and

(08:33):
if you go up and down the range on a
PGA Tour event or an LPGA Tour event or a
college event, everybody is different. You've got to figure out
like I like to cook, so you have to figure
out what's the rest of the and the ingredients for
each player. It's a really simple analogy, but basically that's
what good coaching is and every way you bring it
to a player has to adapt to their own unique ecosystem,

(08:56):
if you like, and every player, as you well know,
he's a unique creature. Yeah. I mean, if you look
at the tour players that you currently work with, Max Homa,
Chez Rev, Charlie Hoffman, Gary Woodland. You've done a fantastic
job with Mike Weir, but the guy that really kind
of you always say it was kind of your golden
ticket to the PGA tour, a player like Heath Slocum. Right,

(09:16):
if you look at the success and the things that
Heath was able to do, and you look at where
the game is now, it's it's crazy to think that
the toolbox that a guy like Keith Slocum had was
a very very good ball striker, very good player. You
you know, in today's era, would he have to try
and do things differently to be able to compete. I

(09:39):
know that you and Charlie have have been trying to
gain some distance in the way how do you think
is the most effective way in two for players to
look at these games that everybody's trying to make from
a distant standpoint. I mean, you've got the John ROMs
of the world, the Victor Hoblands of the world. These
these guys all hit it miles just by you know,

(10:00):
they just were born with that. There are players, like
I said, like what you're trying to do with Charlie
to try and gain that speed. How can players that
are listening, that are wanting to say, listen, I want
to try and get more distance. How can they do that?
But how can they do that not only effectively and efficiently,
but responsibly as well with regards to what everybody's trying
to do from a body standpoint. Yes, so I think

(10:22):
there's two parts to this. The last part you said
was very key responsibly. So anybody can get distance. It's
like simple Oglow principle. If you train for distance, you
can get it. It's not hard. Train for speed, train
for distance, specifically trained for it. To train for it
is not hard. Now you could use superspeed sets, you

(10:45):
can use like all types of different devices, right, like
whatever it is. That's Oglow principle. Where you swing light,
you swing heavy, or you swing weighted, and then you're
trying to train and you're adding speed. Anybody can do that,
okay out there. The caveat to this is there's plenty
of people that try to do it, but they load

(11:06):
their body beyond its capacity and so they are going
to get injured. So if you think of a car analogy, right,
Formula one cars, everyone talks how impressive the engine is.
What's more impressive is how quickly those cars break, so
they have the ability to decelerate and break well. When
you're training for speed, your body is the same. If

(11:26):
your muscles, tendons, ligaments don't have the stability strength to
handle the load, at some point it will be the
straw that broke the camel's back. You will get injured.
And so there's there's big I want to hit it further, absolutely,
but you need to do your due diligence in terms
of okay, physically, am I safe to do that? What

(11:46):
are some ways I could go about it? And most
of the time most folks would probably get to hit
the ball further and get more speed with what they're
currently doing if they just moved better, right, and as
we age all dudes, guys, we lose our range, emotion,
and all of a sudden, now we're trying to swing
a golf club distance, swinging further more linear travel at

(12:08):
the class makes the ball go further. You can generate
more speed. Well, if you're restricted and you can't turn
because you're in this position all day hypodic, Well, now
as soon as you try and turn, yeah you're gonna
do it, but you're going to essentially do some damage.
So I think you're anyone can get distance. There's so
many great coaches out there now like and there's so
much great information. It's not hard to create speed. And

(12:32):
I also think what one of the things in trying
to get more distance that a lot of average golfers
don't realize is looking at the equipment set up that
you've got, looking at the driver you're using from a
lost standpoint, the shaft, the length, all of those things.
So I think immediately when a lot of players say
I want to hit the golf ball further, they immediately

(12:52):
go to the golf swing. Whereas we're lucky enough to
have teams of people. The players we work with have physios,
have strength and conditioning people. They also have their equipment
manufacturers where they can say, listen, let's go ahead and
look at your equipment. Can we get you a shaft,
Can we change the loft? Can we add a little

(13:14):
bit more weight to try and bring down spin, try
and add spin when you're looking at players mark when
they're trying to get more distance, just an average handicap
with this as listen, I love my golf, I'd love
to hit it further. Give me a swing thing and
a body thing that you would say to him, Okay,

(13:35):
maybe try this and maybe try this. So for sure,
I would say from a swing thing, number one, you
want to hit it in the middle of the face
like smash sentediness of hit it's massive. So but we're
going to forego that. We're assuming that everybody hits it
out in the the middle, as we know that doesn't happen,
but we're making that assumption. So I would say the
modern golf swing that we see has, you know, in

(13:58):
the last say, let's say twenty years, has basically taught
out distance. If you look at the population of long
drivers versus PGA tour players, there's completely different ingredients in
what they do. And so you're trying to hit the
ball further. Anything you can do that allows you to
create more travel, a bigger turn. Simple things like if

(14:19):
you look at a long driver, they all unwait their
front foot. Their front foot comes off the ground, all right,
They extend their legs in the back swinging a lot
of times, and they're standing up. Now there's a lot
of reasons for that, but from a dumb down standpoint,
the more that I can feel like I'm going up
almost losing my posture, I can then basically get back

(14:39):
down in the ground and have the ability to jump
back out. Club golfers don't do that. They're like, keep
your head still. I got to make sure I don't
move off the ball. All of those things. They might
be great for hitting a distance wedge yards, but if
you want to hit the driver a long way and
you want more distance, that's a completely different animal. So
I would say the longer you can make your goals

(15:00):
and the more you can feel like you're using your body,
Like turning. I think one of the things you said,
what's something you can do with your body. I think
you want to have a freer hip turn. You want
to allow like your lower body to actually move and
turn some people tend to stay very restricted. Don't worry
about that. Even if you feel like you move off
the ball a little bit. Remember with a driver, the
balls on a t you have some mrgin for error.

(15:22):
It's not like it's on the ground. So I would say,
really try and feel like you let your hips turn,
let your torso turn. There are some dangers to that
in some scenarios folks start reverse finding, et cetera. But
for the most part, and make a freer turn. And
then go look at long drivers and what do they do?
People do really well, like just visually seeing things. And

(15:46):
if you look at let's just make an example of
Adam Scott. He's probably got one of the most beautiful
golf swings you've ever seen. And the guy moves like
a gazelle. So that's another part of it. But and
then you look at Jamie Sadlowski, or you look at
one of he's Kyle Berkshire. There are two different animals.
You've got the mona lizer over here with Adam Scott,
and you've got this abstract, crazy sort of radical art thing,

(16:09):
big Karl Berkshire. But that's why Carl Berkshire has got
two twenty plus miles an hour of bull speed, and
Adam Scott might get one ninety of these really trying.
But they have different benefits, right, So it's one of
those things. Look at what you're trying to accomplish and
sometimes just by as most as you can pick some
of that up. But just understand, if I want to

(16:31):
hit the ball further, I need a swing that's built
for speed, not that's built for accuracy. And those are
just two different animals. When a player like Charlie Hoffman
comes to you and says, listen, I want to try
and chase some distance. This happened to me a couple
of years ago. Jeff Maggert came to me and said, listen,
I'd love to try and hit the golf ball further.
He's playing on the seniors tour. Jeff's always had a

(16:52):
really really short golf swing. You know, his arms were
always really kind of low, and you know, we were
able to get him into a long or backswing. But
I I said to him, you know, Jeff, one of
the things that you have to give up with trying
to chase distance, if that's the route you want to go,
is everything that made you who you are as a

(17:12):
player and what your DNA was. Your DNA was you
hit the golf ball incredibly straight. It didn't curve a lot,
You didn't miss a lot of fairways, you didn't miss
a lot of greens. And I told him, I said,
if you are going to try and hit the golf
ball further, there's a massive shift in the way you
think about playing golf because you have to stand up
on tees to where your entire life you're thinking about

(17:33):
which part of the fairway you want to hit it in,
and you have to stand up and in a tournament
just make a reckless, abandoned swing. When Charlie came to you,
Charlie Hoffman and said I want to try and chase
distance as the coach, did you guys sit down and say, Okay,
these are the games we could make, and these are
the reasons why we would do this, and these are

(17:55):
also some of the negatives if we go down that route. Yeah,
for sures. So obviously you talked with a lot about teams.
So Charlie's worked with Greg Rose for a long time,
and then I was kind of brought into it because
I was a guy that could see Charlie all the
time on the tour, but also Greg would like figured

(18:15):
that I would keep continue the same sort of framework.
And so as a team we met and the biggest
correlation to world ranking points and basically earnings. And then
also like club Golfer's handicapped is distance. Okay, So so
the closer you are to the green, the shorter you
approach shot, the easier it is for you to essentially

(18:36):
have a positive strokes gang. So like ches Reve's one
of the straightest drivers on the PGA Tour, but Chaz
and he's led driving actually before and you go back
to heat. But the problem is their strokes gained driving.
Unless you're playing a golf course which where the fairway
is absolute premium, they're very negligible ever being strokes gaged.
Whereas someone like Gary Woodland or Charlie Now who might

(18:59):
be hitting it in the first cut or even the rough,
but they're hitting it three sixty five down there and
they're having a wedge, they're gaining. They have a huge game.
And so the mindset was, look, Charlie, this is what
you can do. And most people don't realize. When Charlie
came on tour, he was one of the longest hitters.
He was, yeah, I remember it, you and l V.
He hit it a long, long way. And Charlie is

(19:20):
a strong dude, like he's forty five, but he is
a strong guy, right, and he works out really hard.
I'll give him full credit. He's the consummate pro even
though you might not think it, but he really is.
And so he knew he could already hit the ball
a long way. He was just trying, for lack of
you know, siming, simplifying it, to try and hit the
ball straight. And so his golf swing was shorter, more compact,

(19:43):
and it was by default because he was in the
era like we were when we played, where you're trying
to hit the ball straight. So he almost had a
restrict to play on there. Once we told him, Charlie looked,
as long as this doesn't affect your This is a
huge take home for people. As long as the distance
doesn't affect your greens in regulation, you're fine. So you
can hit it further as long as it's not out

(20:04):
of bounds or in a hazard. The rough you have
to understand is there's an opportunity cost, but most of
the time it's negligible, right, because they are strong enough,
golf ball technology, wedges, blah la la la lah. So
he was like, okay, well I can do this, and
so it was very much taking the mindset of Charlie.
You to your points swing with reckless abandonment. You've got

(20:26):
to hit it hard and really your nervous system tends
to do really well when you swing fast, right. So
there's also the part that Greg's argument is you're going
to hit it straighter when you swing as hard as
you can. So there's some whether that's true or not.
For a tour player who hits it out in the
middle of the face, probably there's some truth to that.
Club golfer, maybe not. But for Charlie it was okay,

(20:50):
I'm all in on this now. Obviously, the downfall is
you over time you're swinging further. That puts more stress
on your body, and as you're aging, that can become problematic, right,
and so Charlie's already had for a long time, he's
had a bit of a back issue, so you're kind
of working around that. But it's one of those things
he's like, look, I'm trying to win majors. He's in

(21:12):
great shape. He can when he's swinging, well, he's a
hundred and twenty five. I've actually had him at like
a hundred twenty nine or a hundred thirty. That was
with a forty six and a half inch driver though,
but he's got that speed. So it's like he wants
to try and play and contend in these big events.
It's huge and for him, if you look at last year,
he picked up a lot of distance in the rate

(21:34):
in when it's ranking, and he also was missed the
Tour Championship by a spot because he had and he
actually took some time off in the middle of the year.
So it's like one of those things. The correlation is
there the thirty you hit it, as long as it
doesn't affect your greens and regulation, you're going to have
an opportunity to shoot last scores. And I think for
him he had the DNA of being strong and fast,

(21:57):
so it was just a case of taking the restricted
playoff lotty here with him. Then let's say somebody who
doesn't necessarily have that distance that's trying to add it
so like someone who's really impressive is actually what Brian
gay did. Like if you look at Brian Gaye, where
he was and the speed he had and then what
he got it too, and now he's on the Champions Tour.

(22:17):
That's more impressive because he doesn't necessarily have the frame.
He didn't have a restrictive plate. He just didn't have
a big engine. So if you have the engine inside
and it's restricted, that's easy. The harder part is actually
building a bigger engine because now that can affect other
skill sets that you have. To your point with Jeff Maggot,
you know which part of the fair might might hit it.

(22:38):
So I mean, do you think that Charlie has seen
enough of the games in the stats and what he's
doing on the golf course that kind of justify the change.
Oh yeah, and it's and everybody who knows Charlie his
nicknames the Seagull. And but what's so funny about Charlie
is he's very as a coach. He's great because you

(23:02):
tell him what to do, he'll do it. He asked
great questions. But I can remember this year at Houston
when his back was flaring up a little bit. And Charlie,
if anyone knows Charlie, he's incredibly He drives it great,
like he's got this t down driver which kind of
goes and he goes in the fairway, cuts beautifully and
it probably goes about two nine, right. And we're at Houston,
as you well know obviously with the Crane family, you're

(23:24):
close to this tournament and that golf course yields success
if you smash it. So Charlie is on the range.
His back is not great, and I know he's not
great that we're working, and I'm like, Charlie, you can
put it in play with the tea down driver and
he's like, well, I don't want to do that. I
know I can do that, but that's terrible. I need
to be able to hit it like I can hit it.

(23:45):
I'm not going to swing at a hundred fift emails
now and I can swing at mid one twenties. That
makes no sense. So it's like he'd rather probably play
less but have that skill set because it's such a
big advantage. And he's like, you know, the tricks you
take the pill It's like whoa Like once he's seen
that there's such a big advantage to it. So it's

(24:07):
like just like guys who hit it short do better
at courses like Hilton Head right where Charlie needs the
courses that favor when he's a good bull strike and
he's hitting it a long way. So it's like trying
to pick and choose your schedule. I think my analogy
would be and I know I'm friends with Noblo. He
said this a lot. Golf's going a bit like tennis.
It's like serve and volley right, like you might have

(24:28):
a short window, but you're gonna play. When you play,
you're gonna play quite well. It's a bit more like that.
Golf is changing. It's a power game right now. Like
there's such a big advantage when I watch my guys
that hit it a long way versus guys that don't,
and I see where they're playing the golf course from
it's in. It's incredible. Like people don't realize how good

(24:49):
a bull strike at Chaz rev is when you watch
what he does and the scores he shoots with what
he has in the tank has in the tank. I mean,
the guy is the part three prints. All my guys laugh,
he's hole and ones. When you play with him, he
hits the flagstick. It's a joke, but that's how good
he is as a bull hitter. But it doesn't matter
how good that is when you've got let's say Gary

(25:11):
or Trey and Charlie who might be hitting its seventy
yards by like that just makes it really difficult. So
golf is kind of evolving to be the skill sets
and the ingredients necessary to dominate. Especially the way these
crazy people set up majors now is different than it
probably has been before. And bay Hill this week, the

(25:32):
reason guys are struggling is there's rough like it's it's
set up like a major, and there's it's I mean,
it's really flaying hard there. This week, I want to
talk about one of your other students who's I think
one of the coolest guys on tour, Max homer Um.
You know how good I mean when he when he's
on the golf swing, the way he plays, I mean,

(25:54):
he looks like he can be one of the best
players in the world. He's had some success, he's I mean,
if you look at where he's won as well, he's
not winning on golf courses where you can fake it.
You know, you've got you've got to be able to
play and score and have world class games to play
at a place like Riviera Quail Hollow, you can't you
can't fake it ball striking around those places. What's the

(26:16):
ceiling in your opinion for Max and and what do
you think he's currently doing Mark that's making him, you know,
one of the best players in the world. Yeah, I
think I don't think there is a ceiling with Max.
I think it's one of the things where the more
he sees himself having success and he's comfortable in those environments,

(26:37):
he's going to continue to play well because his skill
sets fantastic. He drives it really well. Now he's got
like a fairway finder and then he's got he can
smash it um. So he's in He's been doing some
really good stuff with Kobe Wayne, and he's got his
bull speed. He's in the mid one eighties now without
you know, having to change anything excessively, so just with

(26:58):
strength and then his iron game is really really good.
So he's one of those players when he gets in contention.
I think Max is like funny on Instagram and on Twitter.
He's quite witty, but he's kind of an introvert, but
he's also almost quite stoic, like he's the iceman when
he gets in contention, he's got the right demeanor. He

(27:19):
doesn't really get flustered. He kind of takes it all on.
And I think his struggles in golf where he kind
of lost his game and then has got it back,
his perspective is very unique, right, And so I think
that that's hugely beneficial when you get in the situation
because it gives you a perspective. I'll hold on a minute.
I've been down that road before. I know that I've

(27:42):
got the skill set to overcome a lot. And I
think that's for him, is why he does well, especially
on hard golf courses. And so certain players thrive when
a golf course is difficult because now all of a sudden,
it changes their perspective on Hey, look, I don't have
to shoot thirty under. Max is a guy if you look,
and there's lots of players like this. They thrive on

(28:02):
scores on hard golf courses where the winning score might
be somewhere between ten and sixteen under. Right. So because
they may not like have the ability to make thirty birdies,
let's say out in Palm Springs, but when they're playing
a big boy golf course like riv like you know,

(28:23):
Quail Hollow, like a Best Page Black, they've got the
patients and their bull striking is a you're able to
basically thrive on that. That's what's the skill that is
most tested at a major. Is really your bull striking
Like people think Augusta Pudding, Well it's not, as you
well know, It's like, it's actually the guy who can
hit the irons the closest and put it in the

(28:44):
right spot. And so that rewards a really good bull striker.
In the recent years, I don't can't think of anyone
that's were not Augusta that I wouldn't call the premium
bull striker. So Max is built for those those situations.
And I think, like I know, plays a lot with
Justin Thomas, guys like that, and they tell him how
good he is, and I think him starting to see that,

(29:05):
be comfortable and have the acknowledgement of the best players
in the world. To look at Mexico, man, this guy
is unbelievable. That I think is really important too. And
so for Max it's to me, it's being more comfortable.
He's done it a lot outside of majors. Now it's
trying to do it in a major. So we kind
of see how he goes, and I think the more

(29:27):
he gets comfortable. I think that I don't see that
he has a ceiling. I think he's a top ten
player in the world, no problem. I think he can
win multiple majors based on his skill set, and so
you know he's good, is really really good. It's just
having your good when it really matters on a Sunday
afternoon and you know, in augusta or at the US

(29:47):
opened the British Open. So I think I'm excited for him.
It's it's fun to see a player when they come
to you that they're really struggling, and then you kind
of see, we'll look if you do this, this is
going to suit your body more effectively and you'll be
more successful. And he's just written around with it. Do
you like the mustache or do you not like the mustache?
Are you on the mustache bandwagon or off the mustache bandwagon?

(30:11):
For Max Uh, I would say it's entertaining, but I'm
not I'm not a mustache guard. But he can pull
it off. I guess he's got plenty of hair. I'd
look stupid with a mustache. Mike were Masters Champion, You've
done some fantastic work with him. Um, you kind of
resurrected this kind of second stage of his life and

(30:33):
his career. Um, talk talk to me about how that
came about and what changes you made, because Mike's always
had a really good looking fundamental, you know, solid golf swing.
Was it a length issue? What what do you feel
like you brought to the table that's kind of helped
him get to kind of a second part of his

(30:54):
competitive golf career. Yeah, I'd say Wheezy's uh, the ultimate competite,
Like the guy has gotten he is a real bulldog,
no give up. So and he works tirelessly hard, Like
I get sent videos at all times of the day. Um,
he's in his basement in Utah, he's at the range.
I mean, so the guy works incredibly hard. One of

(31:15):
the things with Mike was to kind of simplify things
and be like, Okay, Mike, this is what you did
when you were successful. You've been to see everybody. Mike's
downfall is he listened to the tree in the yard
if he thought it would help him. So he kind
of has like rabbit ears. So with Mike, it's as
you know, I don't have a problem being direct. So

(31:36):
it's like Mike, no, this is what you need to do.
You came to me, you were struggling. Here's here's where
you should stay the you know, the corridor which you
need to keep the train on the tracks, and if
you deviate from that, you're going to struggle. And so
he's been really good at that. Like his body's changed, right,
so as you age, and he's had some surgeries and

(31:57):
some other issues. So it's like, okay, you're you have
to do this to accommodate your own physicality. If you
go outside of this, you're going to struggle. And so
when right now, this is funny, we're on there, Like
he's working hard to try and hit the ball further,
but he's also seeing that that somewhat con jeopardized. His

(32:20):
wedge game is sure game, and his iron game, which
is really really good at So it's one of those things,
what what has made you successful? The torn that he
plays now, he's one of the longest hitters on that tour,
so getting more distance, yes, it might help when he
goes to play Augusta, but beyond that, he's one of
the longer hitters in the population he's playing, so it

(32:41):
would be more sensible to focus on the iron game.
And the wedges and those other things that facilitate scoring.
But I sure every player has an identity. Mike. This
is what you're able to do. You're incredible at it,
like you're bull striking. You you focus on that, but
that's not necessarily your DNA and what you do well,
and so you've got to be putting it well. You

(33:02):
your short game is incredible, your bunk game, your distance wedges,
and so really holding into task on the identity and
the things that made him successful and just getting back
to those basic things and being look, Mike, here's the
ingredients in your golf swing. This is what you need
to do. Um. We have a guy on our team
called Dr Will Woo, and I encourage anyone that's into

(33:24):
wanting to improve their game. He's a motor learning expert.
He's a PhD based out of California, and Will's great.
He takes my technical plans and creates these frameworks from
a motor learning standpoint with practice variability, which is intentionally
using error and over emphasizing things. So I'm going to

(33:44):
do it badly, I'm going to do it overly well,
and I'm going to try and live in the middle. Right,
this this sort of extremes because that's how the brain
learns well. And with Mike we've pared it down to
very simple ingredients and then he out works on this
variability of overdone off the cliff and that has resonated
really really well with him because it gives him some

(34:04):
gauge of Okay, I need to do it this way,
and it gives him some pretty good feedback. So I'd
say for Mike, we've simplified it, We've used some different approaches.
He's very much was from that old school of I'm
going to hit as many balls as possible as a
and just trying to do it right every time, as
opposed to embracing error and struggles and these other things

(34:25):
to be like okay, what can I learn right? You know? Okay,
wait a minute. And so when he's on the golf course,
when he's off, he's like, we have an expression falling
off the cliff, like so exaggerated. Man, I felt like
the top of my backstree was like so off the
cliff crazy and it's not. But when you play in tournament,
this regression back to old patterns. You need something to
be able to basically catch onto and it's big on

(34:49):
The other thing, I would say has been really helpful,
and I think this is great for all golfers. External
cueues versus internal cues, so like where the club is
what it feels like this position, and that's not what
resonates and what really works under under stress and under duress.
A lot more of external like things that are really abstract,

(35:09):
um like I want to make sure that the buttons
on my shirt are pointing over the ball, or I
want to imagine there's a laser beam coming out of
my left hip pocket pointing at this grand stand behind me.
Like things like that where they're not technically positioned orientated,
but they're way more like external And some of them

(35:31):
them can be quite explicit with certain players you wouldn't.
I can't tell you what some of Charlie's are, but
they they're great because they resonate with someone and then
if you're in a stressful situation, you go, hey, Charlie,
they know exactly what it is. So you create this
vernacular with players which is unique to them, your own
language between the two of you or the team, so

(35:52):
that you can embrace it. And I would say the
other thing with we are like all my guys. He
works with Jason Glass in the gym. I brought Jason
into the team and Janet all Xander. He's working on
his movement in the gym when he's and his golf
swing when he's working out, which is massively important as well.
So this whole effect of Mike, this is what you're doing.
Everything is focused on working on these things in your

(36:15):
goal swing. Don't tinker with anything else, stick with this,
and then over time you should have positive outcomes, which
is what's kind of happened with Mike. So I mean
that's for me. He works really hard. He kind of
had a breakaway, he'd been through a divorce, so it
was kind of like a fresh start for him, and
I think it was the right time. And then just

(36:36):
giving him a very simple framework and plan based on
this is what you need to do, Mike, don't deviate
from it. And to his credit, he's done really really
well with that, sticking to that plan as well as
we as he can. You you talk a lot about
trying to keep the players on message right in in

(36:57):
are there's so much information out there from an instruction standpoint,
right and you know, I think you've done a fantastic
job at trying to be in all of the different
camps to understanding the golf machine, which I don't have
a clue. I tried tried to read that book a
million times, and I mean, I'm to two pages in
and I'm shooting myself. You know, you've you've gone down

(37:20):
the body swing connection route with the guys at t
P I. You've done so much education for them, you know,
in Mark, what do you like about where golf instruction
is today? Just from a sheer golf instruction for the
golf instruction people that are listening, And what don't you
like about where golf instruction is in two? Um? So,

(37:42):
first of I think we're in an amazing point where
information is readily available, and I think the quality of
information for golf instructors and the instructors that are out there,
I think it's fantastic. But so much education people know
a lot gay now. That is also what I don't
like about golf instruction. So it is very easy for

(38:08):
people to be critical of coaches that coach players. But
as your father would definitely agree, being able to give
somebody information on the range at a golf tournament, which
is the worst environment coaching because it's a different animal
that you're not really teaching at that point. You're trying
to get someone ready to go to battle, so to speak.

(38:30):
UM is a completely different animal. And you might have
great information, but what do you do when you have
a player who wants to hit you in the head
with a club and who's irate. Can you be the
calm in the storm? Can you get them to hit
the ball well? And so there's a reason that great
coaches kind of that have experienced there's no substitute for it.

(38:53):
They know what to say at the right time. Less
is always more. They're trying to get the player to
play well. And I think what I don't like about
instruction is people don't understand the relationship between a player
and the coach. Nobody really does. Caddies do. Caddies are
probably the most insightful, but because they see it. And

(39:15):
so when you criticize somebody or think somebody's not doing
something well, the problem is you don't understand really what's
going on. I think golf media bashes people, which is terrible. UM.
I think journalists certain ones are trying to create a
story for themselves and what they don't understand they've never

(39:36):
been there. So I think that I don't like in
golf instruction is that people find it very easy to
criticize golf instruction and working with the player is much
like a medical case, like everybody is different. What are
the things like, there's certain protocols that we all know
that we will try with the plan, but they may
not be receptive to it and they may not actually

(39:56):
physically be able to do it, so then you have
to adapt. And so I there's no substitute for experience
and the wisdom that comes with it. And I think
younger coaches and coaches that don't have experience need to
understand that just because you think somebody's early extending or
somebody's too steep, it'd be really easy to fix. Well,
that person has probably played with a lot of golf

(40:19):
doing that and being extremely successful, so that pattern may
work for them. And I think coaching is taking what
people already have and making them better versions of themselves
without destroying who they are. And I think that's that
there's a big difference between teaching and coaching. Teaching someone
to do something away from a golf tournament, I'll say
every player I've ever worked with away from a golf tournament,

(40:41):
is a wonderful creature, lovely human being that I enjoy
being with at golf tournaments. A lot of times they're narcissistic,
not very friendly, but I understand because they're trying to
go play golf and shoot a school and there's nobody
else to help them, so they want the tools to
be successful. Knowing how to interact with those human beings

(41:03):
and that ecosystem is really different. And I think you
have to go to tournaments with players and coach, and
sometimes players don't like you a tournaments, but you need
to see what they do so you know how to
interact with them. And I think from gold instruction standpoint,
there's amazing information out there. But how you use that
information and how you translate it and deliver it to

(41:24):
the player in a given situation is is the real
art and the skill to coaching that. I don't think
there's any course that or seminar that you can take.
It comes from experience and screwing shit up. The more
you mess up, you learn and you take that into
another relationship. Okay, well I messed that up? How would
I do that? And it's the same with my members,

(41:46):
my juniors, everybody, and over time you have this body
of work where you can pull from things and it's
always trying to find the simplest solution in the least
number of words to help players play better. It's not
how smart you are, it's how do you articulate to
get them to do something that allows them to be
more successful under the gun. And so for golf instruction,

(42:07):
I think that's where we need to go more of.
And a lot of the way coaching used to be,
if you like given, was the apprenticeship side, where people
would follow a great coach around and you'd be you know,
you'd go with someone for a long time and you'd
see how they interact. So when that player got that
coach teacher got the opportunity with a player, they had

(42:30):
a huge amount of experience seeing how to interact. Well,
that doesn't happen now because tour players look at Instagram
or YouTube and they see somebody with something that's different,
a little radical, and then they'll oh, that's the magic bullet.
They'll have that person and then that person has never
really had an interaction and all of a sudden it's like,
oh no, what's going on. So that to me is

(42:52):
where I think golf instruction has an opportunity to go
really grow and get better. And I would say, if
you are trying to get better as a student, and
you're someone who plays golf like you love the game,
find somebody that has experienced and has had success with
some of the things you're trying to find, because you'll

(43:12):
find that you'll have better outcomes, more consistently, and a
lot a lot quicker because they know what they're doing.
You mentioned that you know there's so much information readily available.
You know specifically now, I mean, you know the amount
of people that are able to put out content on
social media, on Instagram, on their own YouTube channels and stuff.

(43:33):
But I find it just amazing that in this age
to where we have all of this technology and all
of this stuff that should be helping us, it's there
are a lot of golf instructors who just I think
it's just cool and okay to just talk about other
players and other instructors and stuff. I saw a meme
the other day that said, you'll never receive criticism from

(43:56):
someone who's more successful than you are, right, And there
is I think a tremendous amount on social media, a
tremendous amount of the kind of the got you culture,
the kind of you know. I mean, it's just so
you know, maxi Homa, you know, he's that, you know
he it's a bad shot, come down stretch. I mean, gosh,
should just be so easy to fix that, right, I mean,

(44:16):
how does I mean? I mean, anybody can see that.
I mean I can see that from my couch, you know,
And I mean that's easy. Do you think that, you know,
a lot of I find with a lot of young
instructors that that sometimes there's a lack of kind of
understanding of the role that experience and the role that
making mistakes, as you said, is a huge part of it.

(44:40):
I mean, most of the successes I've had with regards
to players were born out of mistakes that I've made,
mistakes that I made with what we were trying to do.
And I think it's easy now anybody can kind of
create this persona of being an expert. Right. You can
get a hundred thousand followers on Instagram and stuff with

(45:03):
videos and you put them out all the time and
people think, oh, that that guy's an expert. And do
you think that there's a way moving forward that those
of us in the golf instruction community, um, could just
treat each other better. Yeah. Well, I think there's a
couple of things. First off, there's a hundred and twenty

(45:24):
five guys that have a talk card. You can't coach
all of those guys as coaches. We all have very
different personalities. The chemistry that you have with a player
is all based on does your personality, first off, match
what the players do? Okay, do you like spending time together, because,

(45:46):
as you know, you spend a lot of time with
these people, like I spend as much time arguably with
these players as I do with my wife and kids,
which is you know, sometimes you that's you feel guilty.
But to be good at your job, you have to
do that. And so when you look at players and
you look at coaches, you have to say that, Look,

(46:08):
anyone who's let's just take the PGA Tour for an example.
Anyone that's coached multiple players on the PGA Tour for
a period of time and they've got multiple wins is
a really good coach. Now, that doesn't mean that every
single person that they work with is going to be successful.
Because the chemistry, the interaction may not quite be there,

(46:29):
and that just happens. As you have success, you're going
to attract more players, So you have to be really
selective about the players you take on. So now I
get asked a lot, but I'm only going to take
on somebody that I think my skill set and my
if you like strengths, marry with their weaknesses, their deficits

(46:49):
and where they're at. If I take on someone that doesn't,
that doesn't match, that's shame on me. That comes from
experience because I know I won't be successful and I've
been down that route where I haven't been. I think
that as coaches, we all have skill sets that are
really good, and you acknowledge what people are good at,

(47:10):
Like I know I can tell you about every coach
on the tour the things that are really good. I
know people are critical and megas I hear people say this.
So my mantra has always been and every player I coach,
you'll they'll tell you the same thing. They'll ask about
a coach and the player will say in front of me,
where he's not going to say anything but positive, he'll

(47:31):
tell you something positive about that coach. Because those guys
are trying, and everybody that's been out there has a
skill set they're successful at. Some people probably think they're
a little more successful than they are and that they're
good at everything, which is ignorant because we're not. But
everybody has a strength and if the player has the
deficit that that coach matches, there will be success. And

(47:55):
I tell you which ones are gonna work, and then
I think, well that would be interesting. How's that going
to happen? And coaches do surprise me because we're all
trying to learn, so we get better, and we get
better at certain aspects of the game. Right. But prime example,
let's say somebody comes to me and they need to
put better. They're an amazing ball striker and they put well,

(48:16):
I'm gonna say, well, you should go see Phil Kenyon,
John Graham, like you should see Steven Sweeney. I'm going
to tell it, sell them to go to a putting expert. Now,
if someone comes to me and they're not a good
bull striker, they don't have a great if you like framework,
they need to understand what they're doing. I'm like, well,

(48:36):
if they they could be a good match. So it's
it's one of those things, and sometimes you are wanting
somebody to ask you as a coach because you think
you already have the solution to what they do. And
when you get that, that's like a perfect match. That's
like Max Homer. Like I've known Max for a long time,
so when I got the opportunity, it was like, okay,
we we're screening, you tell you what you're doing, and

(48:58):
then okay, well this is pretty simple, right. So I
think it's one of those things you've got to acknowledge.
Golf coaches should acknowledge everyone has a skill set. Some
people are good technicians, some people are good at coaching.
Some people are good at making players feel good. Like,
depending on what the person needs, coaches are going to
be good. So it's much easier to acknowledge like what

(49:20):
people do. Like prime example, I think John Tillery is
a great coach. I heard someone tell me Brandon Shamley
was bashing him on social media about Ricky Fowler. Well,
look what John Tiller has done for Kevin Kids and
Accept Strucker and Hudson Swofford. John Tillery is a great coach.
It's probably giving Ricky Fowler a great information. So like again,

(49:41):
it's people are critical, like good coaches are gonna they
have success, and they'll have success with players over time.
And I think acknowledging what people do well and understanding, hey,
that person is better at that than I am, that's
a that's a great thing. And I think that's what
a sign of a good coaches the you're never going
to take on something that you can't do. And I've

(50:02):
had opportunities with players, you know, over the years where
I wasn't ready and didn't have the experience or the
information necessary. I took it on and I left it
up right. But it's like that comes with experience. So
I think it's much easier to acknowledge what people are
good at and give them credit for that. And here's
the other part that everyone for really forgets is we

(50:24):
have some great interactions around the green, like in an
area like in a caddy dining or in a coaches
area where we're all having a conversation and we're talking
and we're sharing and we're learning. And I feel like
that's really important to our growth as coaches because we share.
We're effectively like doctors sharing a case. Well, I for me,

(50:45):
there's not I'm not going to do that with everybody,
because I know certain coaches, you know, they're they like
to dominate conversation and they're not really into sharing. And
there's other coaches like the interaction you Philip Kenyan and
I had at by Hill this week, which are really
healthy and great, and you thrive on those and you
look forward to those opportunities. So I think it's like
understanding acknowledge what people do. There are loads of amazing coaches,

(51:10):
and instead of being critical, say something positive, like just
acknowledge what they do. We all make mistakes, We're all
going to make mistakes. We're just trying to do the
best that we possibly can. And so that's kind of
one of the things that really frustrates me is acknowledge
what people do well and embrace like how do they
do that? That's actually really interesting and I enjoy that.

(51:30):
As a coach, I'm like, I'm always trying to learn.
I wish I could listen to what players say to
you know, coaches say two players on the range, but
unfortunately I'm too being busy looking at my guys. So
I don't know if that answers your question, but that's
just where my mindset goes to and I you know
you said earlier. I've been in lots of different camps.

(51:51):
I try to be to where I am who I am.
Sometimes I'm a bit too honest and a bit too blunt,
but I'm going to treat everybody the same, right, And
some people don't necessarily like that. But it's like I
have no pretenses. I'm not better than anyone else. I'm
usually the dumbest guy in the room trying to learn.
But it's like, just be Cord. You'll be friendly and

(52:14):
treat others with respect and just treat everybody the same,
like be friendly. Hey man, I'm interested to what you do.
And there's so many good coaches. One of your quotes
that I that I think is my favorite. As you said,
anyone who wants to teach should work with a lot
of bad golfers. I think a lot of I'm sure
as you do. I do as well. I get loads

(52:35):
of people calling me and say, listen, you know, d
M N me. I'd love to work with tour players.
You know, I really want to, really want to work
with great players. And I think that you know, you
and I are unique. You know. Still, you know there
are instructors on the PGA Tour that only work with
people trying to play, you know. Shot. My favorite is

(52:57):
Sean Falls doesn't work with anybody that isn't. Yeah, he's
not working with any fifty handicappers, right. Falls is always
at the top of the of the food chain with
working with players. But I think part of being a
great instructor and a great coach is he's working with
regular golfers, working with people that aren't, you know, uniquely

(53:21):
gifted and have the talents that it takes to to
get on the PGA tour of the LPGA. Um, what
do you mean by you think that anyone that wants
to to really learn how to teach needs to work
with a lot of bad golfers. Okay, so bad golfers
need information quickly and they need a positive outcome really
really quickly. So I think that when you're trying to

(53:44):
work with a club golfer or someone that comes into
you right, let's just say for a quick fix, you've
got to fix with the bull flight immediately. And so
the skill set that requires that is very simple language
like articulate to the point, like go in there, treat
it straight away. It's like trauma in there, like there's

(54:06):
that is really imperative to be able to test what
you're doing. The other thing bad golfers, and this is
like going back a long time. If you mess them up,
it doesn't matter. It's a petree diist of experiment. You
need to be able to try different things, and bad
golfers is the best population to do it because they're
not very good anyway, and it allows you to help

(54:28):
them get better. Anything that you give them is going
to improve their game a little bit. But it's more
than anything. It's being able to in a situation where
people need to fix something quickly. It's having the results.
And when you're at a golf tournament and you're coaching
the best players in the world, that's one of the
things that you also need to have is the ability,

(54:48):
how do I quickly fix this? Back in the day,
when somebody is slicing the ball down magnolia lane on
the old driving range, how do I fix that? Or
fixing a slice on the club face for a tour
player or a club golfer is no difference. It's still
the same same thing. So when people say, hey, you
want to get better at coaching and teaching, the more
practice you have with human interaction with different people. And

(55:11):
the best thing about club golfers is you get so
many different personality types, different groups, different bodies, different and
you get to see how those work and like, okay,
wait a minute, that's actually really cool. You start to
see lots of different cases which allow or give you experience.
When you get into that, it's another situation and so

(55:34):
to me, if you want to teach, that's essential. If
you only work with good players, you're limiting yourself and
your experience because tour players, as a rule, tend to
be different to club golfers. That if you like, the
issues that tour players space versus the issues that club

(55:55):
golfers face are very very different, So you're you're dealing
with two different populations and two different types of issues. However,
by working in both environments, you become a much more rounded,
better coach so that you can give better information. And
I think that the best part about having to help
people quickly that aren't talented. Remember that that's the other part.

(56:18):
If you're physically not gifted. And lots of people play
golf because they've tried everything else and they suck at it,
they come to golf you've got to figure out solutions
quickly for people that aren't coordinated and talented. That's you're
really useful. And so you know, the gadgets, the things
you come up with as a coach to try and
convey information simply. A lot of times those are the

(56:39):
same things that you end up using with really good
players because it expedites the learning curve for them and
helps them get better. So that's why I always go
back to, you've got to teach a lot of bad
players because it makes you better at your craft. It's
just that's why doctors in medical school have to do
a residency and all these other things because they need experience. Well,

(57:01):
but golf instruction PGA, the education is not great. And
guys who don't even do that, there's no like, I
don't have to pass any tests. Hey, I'm I coach golf.
All right, here we go. And then all of a sudden,
you know, you might have success with somebody and you're
now coaching some of the best players, but you've got
no understanding of like how does someone learn? How do

(57:22):
they interact? Well, if you've got a lot of experience
with bad golfers, you're in the you know school the
hard knocks. You've done it the sort of old school way.
That to me is hugely, hugely important and being successful
because you have that experience to pull from and you
screw stuff up along the way, but you get really good.
I tell my coaches and when I do seminarize, I say,

(57:43):
if you want to coach golf and you want to
make a six figure income, you need to do two things,
and two things only. You need to be able to
teach someone to hook it and someone to slice it.
Because every golf lesson is somewhere on that spectrum, and
you're trying to get them somewhere in between the two correct.
And so all the things that attributes that the guy
that shows up with a massive hook, those are the

(58:06):
things that a lot of times the ingredients I'm given
to Sammy slicer when they show up right. So it's
and that's to me is there's no like, that's just
a lot of common sense. There's no science to that.
And you've got a human being. How am I going
to make them do it? So you could be the
smartest person in the room with the best information, But
if you've got a terrible bedside man and no intuition

(58:28):
and no EQ, You're going to be a crappy coach. Lastly, UM,
I had him on my podcast a couple of weeks ago.
Dave Phillips Uh. David and Greg Rows the founders of
the Titleist Performance Institute. They've they've both been massive influences
on my life, both personally and professionally. You've done so
much education seminars you know for those guys, Um, how

(58:52):
important of Greg and Dave been to to you in
your career and your life and and and what rolled
you think they've played in modern golf? And so I
don't think either one of them get enough credit for
what they've done over the last twenty years in changing
the way golf is thought of, taught and what the
best players in the world are now doing. Yes, so

(59:15):
I think they've been really instrumental in what I do.
So people ask me, well, who did you use your
mentor who did you learn from? You know, what tree
did you come out of? And as we've talked about,
I've been all over the place. But I would say
in two thousand and seven when I first met Greg
with Robert Carlson, when I started with him and I
went to t p I. I think that both Dave

(59:36):
and Gregg I've been wonderful friends. I've traveled all over
the world with both of them on pretty much every
continent and spend a lot of time with him, right
so outside of just golf, but like Worldly advised, Gregg's
one of the slice humans you'll ever meet in lots
of different things. And then Dave that they have very
contrasting personalities, which I think that's why they're so successful,

(59:57):
And Dave is one of the loveliest dudes ever. And
They've got a lot of experience in lots of different things,
and so they've been very instrumental to me in terms
of decisions I've made, things I've done, and the way
I've gone about it. And i love the guys and
I'm still involved with them a lot. Put ideas to
both of them, Um, And I think to your point,

(01:00:19):
they are very undervalued. I mean in terms of what
they've done in the golf world. So if you take
golf fitness or gold fitness really wasn't anything until Greg
and Dave created you know what they did at t
p I and the seminars, And now if you look
at all of the people that have been successful. The trainers,
the physios and the cairos, those people a bit like Dave.

(01:00:41):
We have to thank David Leadbetter as golf coaches. You know,
if you like bringing golf instruction to the forefront golf fitness,
those folks that in that business, that that is what
we've spent the last ten fifteen years educating people on
around the world. Dave and Greg are the guys of
the nucleus of that and that, and that's they were
the catalyst for making it happen. Um. I think that

(01:01:04):
they're phenomenal at what they do, and now Greg's doing
that in baseball and tennis, um in other sports. But
to me, the great thing is too that they never
really changed. They're still the same, like that they're still humorous.
Like it's funny with Greg because obviously, like he is
a bit like a big brother in some ways, and

(01:01:24):
so the interaction with him, like when I'm coaching players,
it's pretty comical. And but everyone else sees this other
side of Greg. So they're great. They're awesome. And Davis,
he's down in your neck of the woods now as
well as a lot, so they're they're a lot of
fun and it's it's fun to see them at tournaments,
but they were instrumental in what they do. They're still
super supportive and I really enjoy my time with them. Obviously,

(01:01:46):
now I'm so busy here at gray Stone and then
on the tour, I don't do as many seminars. And
COVID was great for seminars because they could do them
more remotely on zoom like we're doing, and that sort
of cut down on their travel. So that's been good,
and I've done a few of those with them, but uh,
you know, I enjoyed the seminars and the traveling. Hopefully

(01:02:06):
that comes back and I do the seminars. Now people
ask why do you do seminars, Well, I do it
because I think everybody needs to understand the body swing
connection and like the influence your body is going to
have on what you do in the golf swing. But
then also the ability to travel and have fun with
Dave and Gregg is great. But those guys are amazing.
I love them to bits. They've been great and I

(01:02:27):
think if you actually look at a lot of coaches,
Greg has been involved with a lot of teams and
Dave like through three D and the influence in the
background that people wouldn't even know about, like and I
think that's the mark of someone who's really really good.
They touch a lot of people, but you never know
about it, especially as Greg's a super humble guy. So, UM,

(01:02:48):
those guys are awesome. I tell everyone, if you want
to be a good coach, their seminars are great just
because they're going to give you a lot of practical, pragmatic,
hands on stuff that will help you regardless of the
level of players that you coach. And they Greg likes
to make things simple. Uh, and I think that's really
important when you're trying to be successful. Well, I know

(01:03:09):
you're incredibly busy, so I appreciate you taking the time
to uh spend some time with me and talk about it.
I'm excited to see you know what you and all
your players do in two and uh, we will see
you next week on the driving Range. I look forward
to seeing on the driving range. Had the players championship,

(01:03:33):
So that was Mark Blackburn and um, he's somebody that
I really really respect and like what he's doing with
his players. And UM, I thought the stuff that he
talked about with regards to distance and with regards to
you know, coaching really really insightful. So I wanted to
thank Mark for coming on. All right, let's get to
some questions from this week. UM, can you cover how

(01:03:55):
you instruct junior players to practice range versus short game
versus putting? How to practice? Um? I mean, I think
the interesting thing about that question is it didn't mention
anything about playing golf. And I think one of the
big things for junior golfers is, yes, we want junior
golfers to get out there and get to the driving
range and practice, but we definitely want them to have, um,

(01:04:15):
that kind of blending in that mix between playing and practicing,
and I think that's really where a lot of players
can improve, especially juniors, as if they get out on
the golf course and they play more golf, not just
sit there and hit ball after ball after ball in
the driving range, because you have to try and figure
out what actually happens on the golf course. So UM,
in an ideal world, you would be playing more than

(01:04:37):
you're practicing. I know that sounds crazy because everybody thinks
it's the opposite, but if you're playing more than you're practicing, UM,
you're gonna learn how to play the game and not
just practice the game. I had a lot of questions
about last weeks set up at bay Hill. Um. I
mean it was brutal out there. The rough was tough.
At one point, Victor Havlin got to ten under. I

(01:04:58):
think that was either UM so time on Friday, maybe
even on early on Saturday, and five under ended up winning. Um.
You had a bunch of guys at the end of
the tournament that could have won. Um. Listen. I talked
to some players that didn't play well last week, you know,
some that missed the cut and some that finished, you know,
back of the pack. They thought the golf course was really,

(01:05:18):
really extreme. And and then I talked to Billy Horssell.
He had a chance to win, finished second, and he
thought the golf course was really fair. UM. You know,
we've been talking for a long time in golf on
how to lower scores and how to make golf less
about distance, and I think you saw that last week.
I mean, bay Hill is by no means a short
golf course, but you grow the rough up and it
puts a premium on hitting the fairway, even if you're

(01:05:41):
hitting the golf ball a long way. UM. You know,
it's it's tough when the rough gets up. So, UM,
I thought it was a fun tournament to watch. Maybe
a little bit on Sunday, UM it got a little
bit um extreme. But you know, golf's an outdoor sport
and UM, you know you've kind of you've got to
play a um with what the elements UM give you.

(01:06:03):
Let's see a number of questions this week, how do
you get players take it from the range to the
golf course? And UM, you know, I think I touched
on that earlier. I think a lot of players the
focus is what's going on on the on the driving range.
The focus is not about what's going on on the
golf course. So I think if you can kind of
reverse the way that you're thinking about it, Yes, the

(01:06:26):
driving range is really really it's important. You've got to
be able to hit golf balls. You've got to be
able to um work on your golf swing and try
and get better. But if you're going to play golf,
and if you're going to play golf and the most
important thing is your score, not just what your your
golf swing looks like, then the focus needs to be
on what's happening on the golf course, So everything that

(01:06:47):
you're doing on the driving range should be about helping
you when you go play on the golf course. I
think a lot of players kind of have this idea
that they're going to practice golf in a vacuum and
and just work on their swing, work on their swing,
work on the driving range, practice, practice, practice, and then
that somehow is going to translate when they go play.

(01:07:09):
There is an art to playing golf, there's an art
to learning how to score, and I think so many
players um could benefit um their scores could improve it
if they really focused on going out and playing the golf.
Every time you look at the scorecard before you go
out and play a round of golf, Okay, what's your strategy?
How many drivers so you're going to hit? Do you

(01:07:30):
need to go to try and go to for all
the par fives and into um, maybe you're going to
hit some irons off with some of the tight driving holes,
maybe a three wood, and get the golf ball and play.
Because I think so many golfers they spend so much
time worrying about their practice. And even though you're not
a PGA Tour professional or an LPGA professional, you have

(01:07:50):
to go to the golf course with a plan and
have a strategy in mind and come up with kind
of like a game plan. So yes, practice is really
really important. But thinking about playing the game of golf,
how are you're going to score? I think it's vitally
vitally important. Um, keep all those questions coming. I put
um questions up every week on Monday's on my Instagram

(01:08:13):
Claude Harmon three. So for all the stuff you want
to know about the podcast, go over to my Instagram
check it out. Of course, with Claude Harmon comes to
you every Wednesday. We'll see you next week.

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