Nick Dougherty Interview: Why playing with Tiger Woods at the US Open was the best day of his career, the importance of maintaining your mental health and his new chapter at Sky Sports

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
It's episode forty two of Off Course with Claude Harmon.
You know the score. We come to you every Wednesday.
This week's guest Nick Dougherty, three time winner on the
European Tour, now a presenter commentator for Sky Sports over
in the UK. I'll tell you what Nick was a
hell of a player, Uh turn pro, had about a

(00:31):
fifteen year career one the Dunhill Links St Andrews. I
mean his his career was supposed to be bigger than
it was. Um, it's really cool to listen to him
talk about it. Uh, talk about leading the US Open
in two thousand and seven opening round, first round leader,
and um, it's it's really interesting to listen to kind

(00:52):
of his journey from playing golf. Talks a lot about
kind of the things that he would do differently in
his career. Unfortunately had the death of his mother which
kind of derailed his career. But somebody that I've been
lucky enough to work with, um in the years that
I worked with this guy, and he's great on TV.
He was a hell of a player, and uh, it's

(01:12):
a really good listen. But before we get to Nick,
I wanted to talk to you a little bit about
Cobra Golf. I've mentioned it before. I've worked with Cobra
Golf for quite a while now, and I'm excited that
they have supported the podcast. They've got a new driver out,
the new lt d X driver. I got it went
straight in the bag and UM, listen. It's a blend

(01:32):
of kind of both worlds. It's speed, it's distance. It's
low spin for faster ball speed blended with a lot
of forgiveness across the face. There's a lot of tech
in the driver. There's an lt d X l S
which is low spin, so if you're somebody that really
spins it high, I might want to try and take
a look at that. UM. And then there's the lt

(01:53):
d X Max I talked about that last week, which
is the most forgiving in their lineup. It confines the
extreme forgiveness of the l t d X. It's got
an adjustable weight in the heels, so if you want
to try and hit a little bit more of a drawal,
you can tune it in. UM. I've hit them all.
I like them all. They're fast, they look good, and
I think you'll see a bunch of the Cobra guys
on tour using them, and um, it's exciting new drivers

(02:17):
they come out every year and this one went straight
in my bag and check them out at Cobra golf
dot com. Backslash lt d X. Next up, Nick Dody.
It's a good, good listen, so sit back and enjoy it.

(02:37):
I guess is Nick Doherty? Um? Nick, three time winner
on the European Tour doing broadcasting now. Um, you retired
in two thousand sixteen. Um do you miss playing competitively? Um?
I don't miss you. And I don't miss running out
of golf balls on it today and having to having

(02:58):
to walk in. Um. I do miss playing how I
used to play college. Yeah, you know it was competed.
Is something that's in your blow, especially you know when
you played this game the whole life like you have,
And I do miss that. I miss the camaraderie as well,
even though all that little mini competing businesses, although a
lot of these guys aren't so many, but like that's
what we are. There was this camaraderie like these almost

(03:18):
brothers at war together out there doing this golfing battle.
I really missed that. At the same time, I love
what I have with this because we're a team. Element.
You've been part of our team as well. Of course
you still as sometimes you can do some bits with
us in Sky and um I love that element, but yeah,
I miss compete. Has it been hard to make that
transition from playing to going into the booth and and

(03:41):
that critical? I because you played and you see things
now on TV when you're working for Sky and on
the European Tour, on the Euros Tour, you see things
and you know as a player it's not as always
cut and dry as it looks on TV. How do
you balance that? Because I think the great announcers are
the ones that are able to kind of tell what
the players are doing. But you have to be critical

(04:02):
at times, and that's a difficult thing to do. Yeah,
it is the hardest thing I found when I first
came across was feeling like I was going to be
letting down mates, you know, because obviously I was young
enough unfortunately because of my game went at a younger
age that I play with all these guys. Wire'd be
Rory or anything DJ. You know, I play with all
these guys, so I feel an attachment to them and

(04:22):
that we know each other's we are those sort of
like the brothers out there that that played with alongside
each other them, we know what it's like. But at
the same time, it's your duty in this industry to
sometimes have to say tough things. Great examples Rory, you
know in Divide a few weeks ago, you have to
address a tough situation where you know, he really blew
that tournament at the end, and you have to ask
difficult questions. And Andrew Colter has to stand across and

(04:42):
answer difficult questions. But I think like to think that
as much as we never like hearing about things about ourselves,
the guys do appreciate that sometimes it's like that's how
it is, Like that's the nature of the business that
we work in. I think that's been one of the
hardest things for me, But in terms of me coming
across and doing that, it was an easy thing. I
gotta be honest. TV became a lifeline. I mean I

(05:03):
was I was down and out big time, like from
where I've been to where I was mentally. I was
really starting to struggle. And I think it was quite
a few of us in this game, and Andy and I,
Andy Coulter and I talked quite a bit about it.
It's dark, you know, and people think this is a
you know, it's a job. It's a great well what
jumping around the world playing golf. Yes, when you're good
at it. When you're not so good at it, and
every weekend is off, but not off, you're thinking that

(05:25):
you're back to room, you're thinking about it. How am
I going to fix it? How I'm going to take
myself out this whole. And you're not making any money, like,
you're just spend spend, spend, spend spend um, you know,
and I usually the example of that people. It must
be amazing to play the majors. It cost me about
fifty grands to play the p G A Championship. I
never made one cup there. I mean, I literally it
was great to see it up, but it was rubbish
playing so bad. And of course it's like ten grand

(05:46):
apart every time you playing it. You know. It's it's
funny because people see the Rory mclroys of the world,
the Dustin Johnson's of the world. You know, they have
these glamorous lifestyles, private jet, big houses. They make an
enormous amount of money and there's no guarantee in golf

(06:06):
if you don't play good, you you don't make any money,
and I think that you know. And the other thing
that people don't realize is how much it costs to
play professional golf. To even if you have full status,
you have to you know, you have to pay for
hotels every week. You have to pay for cars every week.
Whereas the team sports there's a team bus, there's a
team plane, there's the meals are paid for, hotels are

(06:29):
paid for and everything like that. So when you do
have those struggles, and you see players a lot of
times go into those parts of their careers where they
do struggle, When you were at that stage of your
career when you were struggling, you've lost your card. I
think it was two thousand eleven year, right, you played
thirty two events, made one cut. It's so difficult it

(06:52):
must be to try and stay positive and fight your
way through it. Good. That was great, Thanks thanks for
reminding me. Now. The uh, the interesting thing is because
I think that what helps me with my job now
is because I remember when the game felt quite easy
at times, especially when I was a youngster. You know,
we're all your bulletproof, right, I mean, of course I'm
gonna winning. I'm gonna be fine. I'm staying out. Yeah,

(07:13):
of course I'll be fine. And sixty six is just
around the corner exactly, you know. And you know, I
go back to when I left the US Opening oh seven,
and it was my my best year, O seven. I
wont say Andrews, They've done the links as well. I loaded,
but I was always in the mix. I was like
in the mix all the time. And I argued that
I blew a few times that year that I should
have won, but I did win one. Let us Open
play with Tiger, and you just think, like, this is me, now,

(07:34):
this is me, Like Storied Oakman, you fired out there
a little sixty eight on the first day, I was
laying with yeah, and then one under through four on
my second day, I'm leading. I'm the only guy in
the palm three and I'm like, oh, well, here we go.
So I'll win my first US Open here. I might
try and pick up the Masters next year if I can.
And yeah, because your bullet proof. And then you realize

(07:54):
when the worldcomes crumbling down around you. And a lot
of that was personal stuff with me with a loss
of my mom and and my game started to deteriorate.
That it becomes really dark and finding a way I
can be quite tough. And I think that's one of
the things that I really came to realize about myself
was and it was the best thing that could have
happened to me. Though as much as I was bulletproof
and as much as I was making really good money,

(08:16):
and you're right, you know when you're on the other
side of it, and I missed all those cuts back
in Tleven, that was hard. I mean, I tied justin
Roses record, which thankfully it's my only recording golf, and
it's not a great one, but I think it was
twenty one in a row before I actually led. The
one I made the car I led after round one.
I shot sixty four from nowhere in Crans the sierra
in the mountain, which of course I never played well
on and I was the only time I ever played

(08:38):
with Rory in a tournament in the third round there.
But it was brutal. And yet the wing I prided
myself on was that I always believed that the next
day would be the dird turning around. And I still
I'm really proud of that because as dark as it was,
and there were loads of tears, and every time I
thought I got to the bottom of the barrel, there
was another barrel underneath, unfortunately, and and it was really hard,

(08:58):
but every day I got up the even that today
and I think this is the athletes mindset right the
days the day I turned this around, and it was
the best thing that could have happened to me the club,
because what I then we had to come to terms with,
as much as it was very painful, was that I
wasn't I am not the score I shoot. Whereas back
in the day when I was good, I hung the
adoration and you played good, you're in a good mood.

(09:20):
You played bad exactly, but also I bought into it
felt great. And this is nothing compared to what deed
or I mean obviously Tiger, but Rory, like the adoration
is very addictive. It's an ugly feeling at times because
they don't know me, that some of these people, but
they were like and they treat me good, and you know,
and like this is I felt amazing, and you buying
is that this feels amazing. You keep writing out. But

(09:41):
then when you go on the other side of that sort,
so you played great, everybody loves you. You play bad.
Nobody loves you anymore. Hey, and the phone, there's no
one calling anything. No one's calling. I've lost my cardum
on the challenge to it was like, Hey, where there
we are? Where are they? One? And it was super,
super lonely, but it made me come to terms with
the factor if golf is what I do, it's not
who I am. And I think was one of the
great realizations. And certainly when I ever speak to guys

(10:02):
now and I help a couple of younger guys as well,
and more than the mentality side of it, it's like,
that's really important. Remember, this is what you do, and
it's your passion and it's a bit huge part of
your life, but it is not who you are. And
I think it's one of the great things that I
learned in a painful way. You had an amazing amateur career.
I mean, you're one of the big stars for Walker
Cup two thousand oh one. Luke Donald was on your team.

(10:25):
G Mac, you guys clean up at Sea Island nine.
Lucas Glover was on their team. DJ Trehan, Bryce Mulder.
Here's when I was looking at the team that the
U s Nick Cassini, that guy was said that guy
was a super smart man that way. I mean, I everyone,
no one wanted Nick. No one wanted Nick like he
was the guy that we're all scared. I played DJ

(10:48):
and James Driscoll and my two singles games. I was
lucky enough to win both those. But I mean that
was an epic team that was as good as it
really got. I mean, to beat I think fifteen nine
in the States was unheard of, and I don't think
it's ever been matched by us. I mean certainly has
by you guys, but playing away, but yeah, that was
an amazing arrival. Of course, the turn pro Luke turned

(11:08):
pro that the next day and after that and the
rest was history. I cruised on to tour, you know,
Rookie of the Year that year. He was easy. But
then I said, like the party days came because I've
lived this very restricted life with my dad, right, he
was super super hard on me. And it's a hard
one for me to really criticize because I did make

(11:29):
it on tour, but I would find that hard to
be like that with my boy um for instance, all
my daughter. So but he was really really hard. It
was and the relationship and this isn't fault on him,
because this is a guy, it's a self made man,
and he fought for every inch we come from. He
came from the wrong side of the tracks in Liverpool,
the city where I'm from, and he worked very four
for everything, do whatever he had to do to get anything.

(11:50):
And that's not a bad trait to have, not a
bad thing to have in your life at all. But
golf isn't necessarily like that. I never worked harder than
when I was terrible, but I never grafted harder and
wanted it more than when I was sucked. And yet
when I was good, it sort of came more and
actually and I was more easy with it, and I
didn't question everything that was right everything. So I just
think it was I learned a lot from all of

(12:12):
those experiences coming through and certainly for me getting out
on tour, there was a there was a part me
then that rebelled. I mean, I distinctly remember when I
was working on the European Tour, Trevor and Woman we
were at the Valda Rama. You look like you hadn't
slept in two weeks. You had you had all your
boys there and Trevor, you know, was the ultimate ultimate

(12:32):
grinder and the ultimate worker. And you could tell, I
mean you could tell that, you know, you could tell
that the way that you were brought up and all
of the things that you did as a youngster, you
got out on tour, you had some success. And I
always say this, and you probably see this as well.
There's no training to be a professional athlete too. For

(12:54):
the the non sports side of it. Okay, yes, they
may be the NFL and the NBA now in America,
they do some seminars and stuff like that, but nobody
can prepare you for money that you've never had and
the ability to do what you want when you want.
And if you could do it over again, would you

(13:15):
change some of the things that you did as a
young player off the golf course, which could have helped
you on the golf course. You no, No, I wouldn't
because you're here for a good time for a long time,
and they and I needed that because of the fact
that my childhood had been very different, which is not
an uncommon story as a golfer. I had a lovely childhood.

(13:35):
I love very loving parents, but golf was my life.
I didn't live a normal childhood, a normal life as
a kid. I had whatever I needed for golf, though,
and every waking moment outside of school was golf. And
if it wasn't golf, it was homework. In bet that
was life until I left home and went and played
on tour. That was my entire existence. And you got
on tour and you're like, wait, and I'm like, this

(13:56):
is a little bit of me now here. I am.
Dad's not around, I'm out with the guy. And of
course it was a different culture on the tour about then.
It was a good time. I mean, there's a lot
of people who say, like this money they play for us, great,
but they were the glory days and we had a
great time. And you know what, and I did. I
burnt myself out. I actually got glandular fever from from
from what I was doing because I was still grafted.
But I was living the life as well. You were.

(14:16):
The one thing that I always liked about you is
you would work your ass off on the range. You
would you would dedicate from a golf side of things,
but then you could see the following day. You could
see you on the range in the morning and we
would all look at you and go, Nick hasn't even
slept he's been out all night. And then you'd hear
the caddies and the players gone, oh, you should have
seen Deny last night in the club and all of that.

(14:39):
The thing is, I realized he got to because I'd
tear it and I moved down the rankings. For three years,
I thought World World War. This is no good now
because what one of the things. It works because I
believed I was bulletproof. I actually at once stage believed
because I've done it a couple of times in times.
Remember playing in there's a points event, a bit like
the sprint they used to play out here, but we
played it and it was in Australia and for day

(15:00):
points and I went out, so I shot a bad
score on the first day, I got like zero points
or two points, went out, this week's done, come up
really hungover the next day like twenty points. Well I
shot sixty three. Wow, that's the seems to work. So
straight again. Next day, bom into contention. Now from from

(15:22):
being like you're not I'm gonna make the cup, tore
like I'm into contention, and then there's a part of
me just thought, no, no, no, you've got a chance
to win now, like let's speak serious nice early night.
Did it all right out the next day, like minus
two points in the last day. So I was feeding
this in my mind, I really because I was so stubborn,
which is I think it's something a lot of players
do have, as the ability to take the truth, crumple
it up, throw it away. And I think it's a

(15:44):
nice skillful compartmentalizing is sometimes one thing. All the evidence
is point to the fact this is not going to
go well. As a golfer, if you can go no,
this is going to be fine. I mean, you know,
fake it till you make it does play a part
I think in professional sport. And and you know, I
think I really brought into it into I realized I
really wasn't it wasn't happening, and this was bad, and
I went full circles, very much me to the point

(16:05):
where I really then went into the training aspect of it.
I didn't drink at all, and I wasn't never the kid.
I was never It wasn't a drink problem. I just
like being out. I liked the party, I like the
social side. I was living life. I was experiencing all
things that kids do when they go to university, but
at the same time trying to be a professional athlete.
And I got my stuff together and I don't regret

(16:26):
any of that. I don't regret any of it because
I did learn the lessons from it and in time.
The bit I regret the most of everything on tour
was the searching with coaches that if I could go
back now, I wouldn't do because I came on tour
for a reason, and I came on tour was one
of those best amateurs that you said for a reason
it was. It was a good gal, and there might
have been things that people didn't like, but it was mine.

(16:47):
I owned it. I absolutely had responsibility for I knew
what my game was and it was mine. So I
then went on this road of trying to improve, and
I saw improvements, and you know, when I went to
see Lead, and I'm a big friends Lead, obviously, we
made some big changes, some huge changes, and then I
started to see those things benefit because I won almost

(17:08):
straight away. Was again backed up mind, this is the
right thing. And then I just went down the road
of constantly trying to tinker with my swing, and I
got so far down there, and then when my game
went off because I was dealing with stuff that was
more emotion stuff with Leasa, you don't know, you don't
even know where the baseline is anymore. You don't remember
what you did before. I mean, you see so many players,

(17:29):
I've seen it. They're trying to get better. They're trying
to get to that next level, and they make changes,
and they try and change their swing, and they make
changes their equipment, they change their team, all in an
effort to try and get to that next level. And
then they get worse and worse, and then you keep
changing more things, and then to three years later, you

(17:50):
don't even remember what you were playing like or what
you did golf swing wise, when you started making changes
when you were good. Yeah, I never forget the time
of dad to me. I mean, this was now very
much further down the road when I lost my game
because I made all these changes and I had success,
because I like to think there was an element I
had just a certain amount of talent, but also it
was I was at work. I was a graft. I
could make these things work, and I had success at

(18:13):
one maybe not as much as I should. But then
when all the stuff happened in ironically right when I
was at the peak of my game, but I just
played my first Masters and made the card. A great week,
and it was the weirdest thing with my mom and
my dad were there. Dad doesn't come to Torments because
again I remember him being at bay Hill once watched
me playing in the Invitational and I'm still and I

(18:33):
was playing all right, I mean, and he's done, and
I can see him. I couldn't help it. When Dad
had come. My eyes would just trained two more time
as a boy, as is my dad's right. So I'd
seem that act like he's doing, like making taking the
mick out my swing right, and it just it just
it was. It was impossible for him to watch, and
he was so most invested only because he wanted it
for me. Not that nothing for any bad, but he
just wanted it so bad for me. So he stopped coming.

(18:55):
But he came to the master because we thought this
is a pivotal moment in my career and I'm top
fifty in the world and blah blah blah blah. And
I made the cart and on the second day though
at the Master's I'm a birdie eleven. Somehow I pulled
a three to four ft and then and then on
twelve and first stop, and I played that thing in practice,
right Golden Belt, and I'm like, I didn't get it.

(19:17):
These guys mild this so but I mean, Augusta for
me is like the Holy Growl. It is one of
the great moments of my life. Get to see it
for the first time and I play in practice and
I'm like, why would you just not go every flag? It?
I was just like, I was like, it's a flick
of the wrist man it said, this is massively milked.
I was like, wow, these guys really need that difficult
I'd imagine when I go to sat Grass, I'm gonna

(19:37):
feel very much the same about the sevente. That's what
I'm thinking, right, And then I get there on this day,
and of course I stand on that tea and there's
wind on the side of my face, like from from
the right like that, and I look at the flag
and eleven and it's going the other way. And then
I asked, I say, stretched mechanics, what's it doing? He goes,
it should be what do you say it should be into?
It should be into? And oh my god, So I

(19:59):
I said, well, what's on left flag? Because I think
he needs it a little chippy nine. So I got
up there first with it with and I'm first off
because I just bid eleven right down the band, a
beautiful looking shot from straight in the as Aliens, straight
in the as Aliens air just airmail the green. Yeah,
I'm like what, And I'm inside the I'm like one
under for the tour. And this was in the years,
like in a way when you know when the scoring
wasn't so well because it was tough. Two guys then

(20:20):
go and I'm stood there and I start to walk
off the tea and one of the guys in the
green jackets and one of the members says, so I
think you need to hit a provisional ball because they
haven't found it. Because I'm just mind frazzled. So I
go back to the tea and I'm like stretched. I
was like, give me a wedge because it's not a wedge, mate,
and nine. So mate, it's clearly not a nine, is
it because it's in the bushes at the back. Tell me,

(20:41):
don't tell me you rinse the nine in the water. No,
he gets so he says hit the night. Well, yeah,
so I don't know. But and of course I don't,
so I really back off it and I hit it,
and it's like that looks fine, and it's hovering in
the sky. It justn't even at the bank straight creek.
Oh my god. So now I've gone from on the
cup mark to like or I'm inside the cup much,
I'm done, like I'm going home here, and I find
my ball after after four minutes and thirty three seconds.

(21:04):
I'll never forget it because the referee told me, because
it's lonely about there, patrons, patrons and patrons. And then
I make a great double having dropped it up in
the hill right behind a great double, and I birdie
four the last six to end up being typed thirteenth.
Going into that, I should have Burdie. I lipped out
in the other two for birdies on all of him,
but Budie four. The last six holes to finish tied thirteen.
Going into round three, Dad walks, I'll tell you all

(21:25):
that story anyway, because one because I was completely wrong,
twelve is is a terrifying hole. And then I get there.
I remember Dad walked into the house and he didn't
he couldn't even speak. Probably when that that was the
best son that was the best and it was just
like and it gives me goosebumps now because it was
this emotional moment with my dad and I and it'd
been so business for so long, of this recognition of

(21:47):
we were in a great place, and it meant so
much because Mom was there for it. And yet the
very next week, when I'm in contention at Harbor Town,
Mom has the heart attack. She ends up dying a
week later, in my whole world turns upside down, and
the golfer as I knew it would never be the
same again. So for me, as much as it's quite
a sad story that and it's you know, the whole
element of fathers and sons and families around golf and me,
it's what a wonderful thing, as much as it's sad,

(22:08):
What a wonderful place to say that we have this
family moment. Of all the places, Augusta National in the
last place, I hope my mom was at the back
of the eighteen. It's pretty cool. That's amazing you to me,
you were one of the poster children for the talent
versus potential, the burden of expectation. What advice would you

(22:30):
give to young players that are trying to you know,
they they want to play on the PGA Tour, they
have standout junior careers, they're trying to get to that
next level. The burden of expectations because I see, you know,
I've talked about it a lot on my podcast. I
see players that are better when they're sixteen than they
are when they're nineteen. You know, it's as they get older,

(22:50):
they get exponentially worse and they don't continue on. Because
we see these players that played good in college and
then make it to the PGA Tour and then win
tournaments and win majors, and that sometimes can somewhat seem normal.
Those are those are the outliers because the amount of
people that are able to did you feel when you

(23:12):
turned pro having had a standout career? Nick Falder was
a massive, massive part of your junior and amateur career.
He's guiding you. You know, he's a multiple major champion,
he's a sur I mean, did you feel a lot
of expectation and how did you deal with that? I
think I did. But one of the things I would
give my dad, in terms of the abolitionists that he had,

(23:35):
it did seep into me. I really just if Dad says,
you will just go and win that tournament, or you'll you'll,
you'll just win that tournament. I really just believed it,
like I was blind faith, which was such a powerful thing.
And of course it turned the other way when I
had lots of evidence support that things aren't going to
turn out so good in life or engulf. But for me,
the evidence to go in to what you were saying
about for kids going through the biggest thing I learned

(23:56):
from my career and if I could do it again,
as I was saying about the coaching, was remember how
you got here, and the first for improvement is a
noble and the quest for improvements a noble quest. But
make sure and the way I just says it, we
have like you used to have these things. I don't
know if they're calling over the corby trouser press. Remember
you something in hotels and the on these things, you
put the trowels and you close it on the yeah,

(24:17):
and and and it and it steems However, however, all
you do is you open up like that and you
put the trowels and you close it and you make
sure it's turned on the wall. Just use it like that.
Don't decide to try and take it apart to work
out how it works, because I think one of the
most dangerous things is if you just polish what you have.
If you polish what you have, you'll make it better
and better and better and growth and always have an

(24:39):
eye on how do I improve. And there's lots of
ways to improve. We know so much more now about
the signs of the game and the way we practice
as well performance practice, and you know you've got the
data to see the areas that can improve. But they
want in my generation, especially growing up with an inspiration
lightning filing were the most glorious golf swing was to
think success line he's in having a perfect goal swing.

(25:01):
And if I've got a golf swing that works every
time and hits great shots every time because it's a
perfect machine, then I win all the time. And it
doesn't work like that. There's too much evidence of guys
who haven't got perfect swings who have been brilliantly successful.
And I always looking at it now and I used
Bubba Watson is a great example. Is if you didn't
know who Bubba was, and you sent him on to

(25:21):
a drive and rain somewhere and you said to like
a prayer, like, well, you know this guy wants to
be play on the tour that we got. We got
some work to do here, Bubba. Do we though on
two masters? You know what I mean? As I do
and the things if you did do that with Bobba,
you'd ruin him because it'd be such a dramatic thing,
and you're almost, I think, more danger. And Matt Wallace
is a good example for me. It's got a really

(25:43):
nice gol swing. Criticizing the direction he's going, It's got
a great golfs but I know he's so passionate about
his golf swing, and I sometimes worry about guys when
they're so passionate about the goldming they've already got. I
look at his machine, I think, well, that's better than
machine I ever had, and I know it's better than
machine than lots of major champions have ever had. But
Matt wants to achieve those things. And I just think

(26:04):
it's really easy to go looking for the answers imperfect technique.
And that's what I learned that you don't need that
because one thing that I had before was ownership of
my golf swing. And if you got to the tour
with this polish it. Don't try and reinvent it would
be my advice for something. A couple of weeks ago,
a girl I teach on the Ladies Store, Marina Alex.
She was in the last group. Leone McGuire went on

(26:24):
to win the tournament, but they were thirteen under. They
were tied for the lead. She had one before she's
been on the Solheim Cup, but it's been been a
while since she'd been in contention. So I was with
DJ and I said to DJ, hey, can you just,
you know, do a little video message for and typical DJ,
but what you were saying, he said, just remember that
you've just got to do all the stuff today that

(26:45):
got you to thirteen under and in the last group.
Don't try and do anything because everything you've done up
to this point has gotten you to have a chance
to win this golf tournament. So just keep doing what
you're doing. Don't try and change anything because you're in
the last group and you got the lead and you
feel like you have to change that. Well, that's one
of the great d is a great exaptums for two
eas and so I tell this story quite a lot

(27:07):
of people for the exactly what we've just been talking
about there is that one of my great realizations when
I finished playing and started doing this job and standing
standing across from guys that I know, but they're at
the pinnacle of the sport, and so I get to
spend my time around guys who are the very best
of the best, and I stand across and ask them
how they do things or what are you think about?
Because my brain is so full of information, and I

(27:27):
think it's important now. I do need to know that.
I need to know how things work. I need to
know why people do it same you know, I have
to try anything like you in terms of I need
this wealth of knowledge that I can understand this game
because that's my job now. If I was playing, I
wouldn't want that buzzing around my head. But unfortunately went
there and look and DJ is a great example. You
talked to him. He just knows his stuff, and I
like the fact that one he won't go there like you,

(27:48):
you're trying to go as well. Why are you trying
to do that? And I know great ones like when
you were chatting to him and I thought, there's a
brilliant nugget with the how many times you try and
draw the balls year DJ and is like that just
didn't It's like, I mean, and that's great, isn't it.
We stand on tease and I get this all the
time with the Tea Time Tips stuff that I do,
which is fantastic stuff. Man, think that's all based on
simplicity because it's not what I did. I made it complicated.

(28:10):
I go back to it. I watch you sometimes on
your Tea Time Tips on Instagram and you'll talk about
the shot and I'm like, you didn't do any of that.
May you made that way more complicated? The role you
talked about of your father, what advice would now that
you have children yourself as well, what advice would you
give golf parents, Because I mean, for as many good

(28:34):
golf parents as I've seen in the twenty five years
I've been doing this, the amount that are so detrimental
to their children's success. What would advice would you give
to a parent that has a young you know, girl
or boy that's thirteen fourteen. They're good junior, they're moving
up the ranks, their ranked nationally, whether it's in the

(28:56):
US or in the UK or wherever they're on a
national team. Yeah, It's a great question, Claude, and I
think it's a really hard one to answer because I'm
in that boat as a parent now and I have
never been more aware of how hard my dad's job
was because at the time, I thought, why is he
like that? Why why can't he just treat me like
I'm just his boy and forget about the golf. But actually,
now I'm in that and my boy plays golf. I

(29:18):
watch him, and of course I feel what he felt,
the want for him like more than my one ever
for my game, and desperate for him to not feel
any pain in life. And of course that's not life.
There's going to be ups and downs. And I think
if I could say anything, it would be to allow
that I always protect you, because you will. But they've
got to learn those lessons on their own. And the

(29:39):
way you can remember that they are your kids before
their golfers, and I know, and you have to fight
that day and rest, wrestle that desire inside all the
time to want to get in their man handle them
towards success, because you can lose them along that journey,
and they can lose as well, because if golf becomes
a job, they've already lost and has to stay there.

(30:00):
See kids Nick that are, you know, sixteen, seventeen years old,
and you realize sometimes they've been playing competitive, NonStop golf
for ten years and you can tell that they don't
enjoy it. It's not fun for them. The parents want
it more than they do. And like you said, their
entire identity as a thirteen year old is how they

(30:24):
perform in a junior tournament on a Saturday afternoon. It's
so unhealthy. It's so dangerous, not just them and their golf,
like to them as people, because I mean, these are
the impressionable years right when these things happened. It's funny.
I was watching King Richard the other day and I
really I never realized because I don't know that much
about the Williams sisters and their dad and like how
that was, and I was I was surprised those like

(30:47):
and how adamant he was about no the kids first
and as much as they had to draft. It was
like he didn't like any of It's like he'd see
the other parents and how they behaved and what they did,
and I thought, wow, there's such a true if action
of what golf is like I've seen all before and
how people may adults you like, you're you're grown up.
You need to know better than that. Let the kids

(31:07):
be the ones who go, hey, don't be don't be
like basking or in the glory of it and making
people feel bad or you know, like you take it humbly,
you take victory and defee the same way, you know,
and treat them the same. And I think as a
parent it's a hard thing to do. I think there
also is an opportunity and you have to say to
the kid that or your child that I'm not always

(31:28):
going to get this right, and you tell me if
your hey, dad or mom, like, I'm doing the best,
and sometimes it's going to flow over because you're gonna
make mistakes with people with human beings. But I'm always
going to do my best. And in the end, we're
out here to have fun. If they can keep it
from if they're not grafted, shure, if if they don't
want it and they're not grafting, they maybe after yourselves,
is that what they really want? But it is. Remember
it's their lives, it's not your You don't get two goes,

(31:50):
you get one go And as much as it's very
easier for us to say, yeah, but what do they
know about what they want in life? Well, what did
you know about what you want in life? And sure
you're going to protect them from making really bad choices,
but it is their life. Do you really want to
be the seventy year old that looks at your kid
and realize that I made you have to choose this
in life? Would you really want that? Would you want
your child to be to be doing something that they're

(32:11):
passionate about, that they love. And if you allow that
and you put I'm a big belief you put them
in that seat with this game, the golf will do
the rest. It was like they were they well, need
you push them down that road because golf is the
best game. Once you get that bug and you're in,
it's like you ain't getting out. I mean, you've got
it for life. One of the things that I saw
when I started to do TV at Sky and I
did some on Core Staff, but I really saw it

(32:33):
when you would do commentary is the difference between technique
and execution. Because you can't get to the PGA Tour,
you can't play on the European Tour or the Asian
Tour of the LPGA tour. You can't get to that
level with a poor technique. And so many golf tournaments
are one and lost by executing a shot and it

(32:57):
doesn't have anything to do with the golf swing. But
as you said, as golfers, I think everybody listening is
they just believe that the way they're going to get
better is for their technique to improve. Well, Rory mclroys
trying to improve his technique, John Ram's trying to improve
his nelly quarter. I found when I watched golf on TV,
you'd watch and you'd just you'd be watching a player

(33:19):
and you played I coach, you're saying, he just made
bogey from nowhere and it doesn't have anything to do
with his golf swing. But juniors, the parents, they blow
a golf term he needs to hit more golf balls,
and you want to say them, dude, he doesn't need
to hit more golf balls, he just needs to learn.
So I'm always talking to players and parents about this

(33:40):
balance between technique versus execution. I think also as well,
there's it's a great technique for me, isn't one that
less early looks like Nick Falivans, Because that's the one
that I grew up with Marion and loving and it's
one that's repeatable. So it could be something you think, oh,
I don't mean like that, But if it's just the
same all the time, it is that when you I
think the gym is a great example that Jim fur

(34:00):
because like you look at what he's doing, but then
you look at what the business part that matters, think, wow,
good boy, your boy. Could he repeat that? And you
look about what he did with his dad and that
golf swing, you think that's what actually makes a really
great technique. And he's funny you say that because I
remember talking with Roy in seventeen and he was loving
as I do to now, loving the strength and the
blade right there. DJ hasn't so common to so many

(34:20):
of the top players now, which I had. Incidentally, when
I was a kid, you were trying to verginized in
the face, was looking at the I DJs weak compared
to me, and the thing was almost tipped back pointing
behind me. It was so strong. But now and then
I'd hear a little bit left but at it like now, No,
I never let because I was learning how to manage that,
manage that pattern as I was getting bed. But instead
of doing that, and when the other way to eventually

(34:41):
ended up with us trying to find this cup and
the wrist on the way down. And then, you know,
without having to name names, like going to like now
turn onto it. I'm like, how can I turn onto
it here? Because if I do, it's gonna go. But
but I'm just kid from from Liverpool. My dad. We're like,
we've got as far as we can. We're like, well,
you know these are these are these guys know what
they're doing, so we must be right. And I ended
up having it was a complete revamp of what I've

(35:04):
done to get to where it was. And that's a
classic example of how it then ended up being the
something that I couldn't really cover from because that's too
big a change that I lost myself in that Rory
said to me, remember where we were at the British Masters.
This is really like what DJ does? I do too?
And if I could go again now is at the
start I know what I know And it was my boy,

(35:24):
no one's touching that clud face that I had at
the top of the back string. But I then didn't
have it, and I thought, well, Roy, you've never really
had that yours is a little weaker. You are more
you are. There's a lot more rotations through strike that way,
in terms of through the forearms and what have you,
versus what he could do with him out sidebend and
body rotation, which is what how DJ obviously, as you
probviously know, stabilizes that blade. It's fabulous, but it's a

(35:47):
big shift from what you do, Roy, And I remember
thinking that, and I think one of the things Roy
his his inquisitive nature and his curiosity is one of
the things that makes him a genius, but it's also
the things that makes some bits a little bit more
dangerous for him, perhaps because he's one talented enough and
capable enough and smart enough to go there is making
the right choices. And you know, I feel like now

(36:08):
he's made that choice to go to taking ownership of
the swing that made him who he is. And because
let's be honest, he hit the grounds at world Beater
and we knew that when he turned up. So we're
gonna take a quick break to talk about our friends
at l A Golf who are supporting the show. We
had read Dickens, the CEO and founder of l A Golf,
on the bonus episode of the pod last week we

(36:29):
had and had a chance take a listen. It was
a good one. They have a new putter out that's
made by hand in southern California. It's the Introdestries first
all carbon head and allows for a fifty larger sweet
spot as the anti vibration chaft. The graphite chief Gary
Woodland's using that. Chef Bryce and d sham goes using
that chaff doesn't have a lot of torque, so if

(36:51):
you're someone that has a lot of movement in the putter,
it's going to help you do that. And it's got
the descending law of technology, something that Bryson has been
using in his putter for a long time. I really
like that because whether you lean the chaft forward and
have a lot of forward press or whether you don't.
With the descending law of technology, it can help you
regardless of what your putter style is. And I think

(37:12):
a lot of putter's when you when you miss a putt,
you think I misread it, but maybe you just miss
the sweet spot. And with a fifty larger sweet spot,
that's definitely gonna help you. It looks cool and um,
it's got a lot of tech in it, and you
should definitely check it out. To learn more about the
new putter and their shafts, you can go over to
l A golf dot co. And now let's get back

(37:33):
to the interview with Nick Doherty. Now that you're in
the role as commentator and doing television and stuff, let's
talk about the game in two What do you like
about where it is today? And what don't you like
about the professional game? In um I must have meted

(37:55):
there's a lot of debate obviously about how far the
ball goes, and I understand that for some of the
for some of the golf courses that that play a
little bit different. Now I think the big thing that's me,
you know, I would it's awkward having this whole BIFC
bifurcation of the rules. That's an awkward thing. You know,
you go through the game one way and then allous
you have to change to a different type of golf.

(38:16):
It's a weird thing. But lets me, technology is amazing
for golf in general, right because golf is really hard.
Me now, I'm needing this technology absolutely, And my dad
hitting it further than he hit it when he was fifty,
so like and that's great because he I means at
seventy five, he loving golf still and he can still
play the game and see it's sore, and that that's
what it's all about. Technology has revolutionized the game in

(38:38):
a brilliant way for us, special games a little bit different.
But at the same time, I'm going to miss Tiger
like I grew up in an era and played in
an era where in tournaments, most of the tourments, anything
big I played in. If you beat Tiger Woods in it,
you probably want it, you know. And it was a
great time. And my greatest day in my career was
none of the wins. It wasn't walking up the last

(38:59):
at St. Andrew's and win in a tournament on the
on the deep world Tours. It's now known it wasn't that.
It was. Yeah, it was amazing, But Tiger Woods third
round of the US Open, when you're in contention, it's
the stuff that dreams are made of. And I loved
every single minute of it. He was a pleasure to
play with. He was absolutely phenomenal that day. The way
he played. He shot one under, but he missed everything

(39:19):
he looked at without hitting bad puts, and I learned
so much. I learned in an environment where everyone's like
this gripping on tight, like oh my gosh, yeah, and
it's open. He was so playful. People said to me,
don't worry, you can't get fair way to see, he's
terrible driver these days. It's third in a feign fair
way and he's in this beautiful little buttery cut. Just
put it in play. But then every second shot down
the heart of the green led it to the right flag,

(39:40):
a little bit of drawer to the left flag was
in the right spot. It was like watching a computer game.
And his demeanor on the course, the with the noise
and the circus that was going on around, and yet
he there was just this coolness to him that you know,
he didn't have to say anything. You just thought, wow,
this is I'm witnessing. And it's hard to say because
know he's not going to get past Jack for me,

(40:03):
the greatest sportsman that's ever played sport, but for me
certainly the greatest golfer that's ever played the game, and
certainly the best level of golf that's ever been attained
by an athlete. And to be a part of that,
witnessed that first hand, alongside him in the ones he
really wanted to win. Was incredible to the point where
I came off and I remember I had my brother
walked around as well, had a load of friends and

(40:24):
family there and it was a great week. Man. I
left the us open around what I mean, I've disliked
it was. It was. It was a breaking ground week
for me. But it was incredible and we went my
manager and my coach and everything. Damian Taylor was at
the time. I fell asleep and Hooters we went for dinner,
and who was on the way back. I was just like,
I know, just like what a day. I was so emotional.
I was just so emotional because I just felt like

(40:46):
it was the best day ever. I remember being in
there and I remember my brother was talking, I'm arresting
my hand on a phase in my hand. I fell
asleep because I was so emotionally spent, and also I
have great taste in food as well. Abviously the wing.
How good do you think John Rome can be? How
many majors do you think he can win? I mean,

(41:08):
right now he is miles ahead of I think he's
I mean, he's the number one player in the world
and he's he's there by a long chat. I mean
he hasn't shot under par. I mean the last time
he shot over par was probably the I mean, it's
you can't even think that far me. Yeah, I think,
you know, talking to a lot of you guys from

(41:28):
a from what he does standpoint, and also talking to
Dave obviously works with Dave Philips. I'm a massive fan
of Dave Phillips and what the guys do over at
t p I as well. But the the his swing
is again here's a great example, is a guy that's
got a swing built around what is capability very reputable. Yeah,
and it's built around the fact that he's got some
physical stuff going on to get around. But it's great

(41:49):
in it. It's so repeatable, and he's so powerful, and
the way the way he plays the game just looks
so efficient and easy. He's not going anywhere. The one
thing I said it's gonna be hard for John is
that there's never been more depth like you know, Entiger's time.
Obviously you had the Titans like Phil and VJ and
Ernie is obviously others, but they're the ones that really
jumped out to me and was now like any given

(42:11):
week you get to the end of it and let's okay,
here's a great example, Sam Burns, Yeah, I could see it.
I can see that guy going and winning major championships
and getting in the Wayne spoiling the party. And there's
nothing away from Sam, but it's like he certainly wouldn't
mean your top ten names that you' putting the list
for guys to win majors. And now it's like there's
a lot of them, Like Patrick Cantle. I mean, you
gotta look at the running for me he's on. It's
sort of very similar to Jump to be fair, and

(42:32):
the numbers he's putting together at the moment and all
of these guys, the competition and the youth of the
ones coming through Victor, Victor's gonna be hard to beat
for a long time. You know. Collins certainly not going
to be done, you know what I mean. I mean,
He's gonna win a lot of major championships. It's never
been harder. I think they come out younger, more mentally
ready than ever. I think because of the wet in
nature have we know much more about the golf, swinging

(42:53):
about how to work at our games. Now they're just
ready that when I came on tour. There was a
mentality if you serve your apprenticeship and then you win nonsense.
Now like now they're like, I want him together, be
like that. They would want a piece of Tiger now.
They probably wouldn't get a piece of Tiger in his prime,
but um, but they want to go. Whereas we all
came out was terrified, Like I was just in awe
and most of us were like it was it was

(43:15):
the only time where professional golf is playing against him
actually stood. There was fans on the range, we were
all fans. You couldn't play an art tour back in
Europe and you've just done them watch him. Yeah, I
think there's been a massive shift to like you said,
the kids come out now. They they've had success in
junior golf, a lot of players have had success in
college golf, a lot of players have had success in

(43:36):
international golf. And this mindset that they come out on
the on the PGA Tour in Europe wherever they're playing,
and they just said, well, I've been good, I'm going
to keep being good. I think Matt Wolf's a great example.
He was a great college player. You know one A
ton a ton of you know, one tournament got into contention,
and I remember Adam Scott we were at Memorial that
summer when when Matt was going to turn pro, and

(43:59):
Scotty was saying, you know the I think it was
the n C Double A Championships were on and Matt
was playing in that and Oklahoma State won that and
Scotty he was going to turn pro that summer, and
Scotty said, well, what tournaments does he have? What will
he get in? And we kind of talked about some
of the ones he'd get an invited in, and he
was like, well, he could win that one because of
the field. And he said, if he wins one early

(44:20):
in his career, he'll be off to the races because
it won't in his mind, be any different than what
he's been doing. He said, if he struggles a little bit,
then maybe, But you have that Colin Morikawa, Victor Hovlin,
they just were they were good and they've just kept
being good, and in their minds that must be a

(44:40):
tremendous boost to never have that kind of blip, to
just go from standout amateur career to just crushing it
on the biggest stage. Yeah, I think you're right in
the end. In the perfect world, it becomes just a
continuation what you were doing. They were dominating at that level.
They come across and I think, you know, that's a
great example of you. Right, if he hadn't come and
done what he's done so quickly, if we had a

(45:02):
bit of a barrel. I know he's had some tough
times recently, a lot going on, but like if he
come out and he hasn't proven himself straight away, immediately
the world starts talking about Yeah, but with that golf swing,
you know, it's too easy, too easy. It's too easy
for people who even don't even really know as well.
A lot but a lot of people don't even really
know about why. They just know it looks different, so
it can't be right, you know. And and then that's
where the player gets tested, because asking yourself questions, is

(45:23):
it does it need to change? Well? I am the
only one who who swings it like that? So maybe
is it wrong? Am I wrong? You know? And he
goes to George, I Georgia, but are we doing the wrong? Stuffy.
It's so easy for that cycle to start. And I
do feel for the guys now more than ever because
the attention in the sport, but also because of the
amount of eyeballs for social media and how reachable everybody is.

(45:46):
Everybody who's got an opinion. Of course that's nature life.
You're entitled to an opinion, but they but they can
be reached. And I always think as well, Like for
me personally as a player, I don't know terrust it.
I'm not just in miny of you think. I like
to think a lot of the guys don't choose not
to look at that. They engage with social media because
it's part of what they do. They engage with the
fans because it's great for them, But at the same time,
they're not hopefully reading what everyone's saying about their performances,

(46:09):
what he's doing, because it's just annoying. You need to
have a pretty and then you say, we've gotta have
a tough, tough shell, you know, if you're gonna be
an athlete with humans too. Yeah, for sure, humans too.
No one likes reading that stuff, especially when it's from
people who actually don't particularly in a position to to
be able to qualify to passive reasonable judgment. You mentioned
Matt Wolf and some of the struggles he's had off
the golf course. Mentally. Bubba's talking talked about this. Do

(46:34):
you think that if you had been in this era
and gone through some of the struggles that you went
through off the golf course, it would have been because
you were part of that generation. Well, you just get
on with it. You don't talk about, you know, struggling mentally,
You don't perhap you know these confidence crisis is I
think it's been fantastic that we've got players in golf

(46:55):
that are at the highest level of some of the
most recognizable figures, major champions, tournament winners, who have come
out and said, listen, I'm struggling mentally with life. It's
affecting my golf. Would that have been helpful when you
went through that? It definitely would because the so when
Mom died it was unfortunately I was right at the
top of the Ryder Cup standings as well, like there

(47:16):
was a Rydet Cup. It was foul those team you know. Yeah,
And I decided after Mom died because it was an
escape from something that was so painful and again that
bulletproof life. I've lived to that point where nothing bad
really ever happens to me. An it's like I might
lose you to I win some to my mentality allowed
me to believe that often something happens, it's very final.

(47:37):
Mom has never gone and she was my rock. She's
gone in acquired tragic way as well. And you know,
watching your mom and turning the machine going off, and
watching your mom pass away from me in a hospital
bed in Florida, it's like it was. It was brutal
at twenty six years of age. People A lots of
people have this story, and I sympathize with lots of
people who go through these awful losses at that age.

(47:58):
But it shouldn't happen to kids. And that is you
don't know, you don't know no one. You shouldn't have
to lose your parents when you when you were a kid.
Still you know, and but that's life, unfortunately. But rather
than having to face that, I turned to I'm gonna
make a Rider Cup team from my mom. I'm going
to make the Rider Cup team from my mom. And
it became my Bill and end Or and I threw
myself into the gulf. And of course it was painful

(48:19):
because I had all the stuff going on inside me,
and ironically I played haunts. I've been tears walking down
the fairway and finishing top ten because I was good golfer,
but I was in I was in ribbons inside, and
of course I didn't make the Rider Cup team, like
I just missed out thinking out of the last few
holes in the last tournament. And then the next year
I won, and so where I lost all of it
because I didn't have anyone to and I didn't say
out loud, I'm really struggling. I almost needed to know

(48:40):
that it's all right, mate. It's like you're gonna it's
gonna be a tough time, that life is not going
to be the same again. It's all okay. I just
thought I'll play my way out at this And of
course the one thing I could touch was my golf swing,
because that's touch more tangible. Right. So then I started
going through and I got rid of all my team
that had made me who I was in the top
fifteen wall and I started changing coach of the coach
of the coach after coaching, going on all these blind

(49:01):
avenues until I didn't know which way it was to
come home. But still somehow I managed to win, and
I went in Germany and I did the whole pointing
up to the sky thing to my mom. That's for you, Mom,
And it was the end of my career. I never
had a top ten on tour again after it, because
I remember that evening going out for the guys mccaddy
Mike at the time, and a few drinks where I won,

(49:21):
and I just thought I felt so hollow, It's like
and I actually cursed me. Mom wouldn't have given a
crap about any of this, Like Mom, she wouldn't have cared.
She'd been like, are you happy, Well, no, Mom, I'm
not happy, you know. And that was when I realized,
and I thought, wow, I've won three times and three
and sixty odd starts and it's this was what it
feels like, I thought, and I realized I was in
trouble and and it was and I just slipped down

(49:44):
and it continued five years on the Challenge dooor of
just banging my head against the wall and wrestling with
it until I had the courage, actually the courage to say,
you don't have to be this person for the rest
of your life. It's like, there's another option, and Sky
was a lifeline for me, and I went and did
a up with the shows, out with with the guys,
and I came on and all of a sudden, I've

(50:04):
gone from the sympathy because people treat it like you're sick.
They'd be like they'd be looking at getting on and
everyone throwing their tupping sin as well and help friends.
I was I gott one well, lucky enough that I've
gone well with so many guys on tour. And I'd
like Miguel and called him and I have come up
and stand there and they'll be watching and anyone wants
to try and help. But it was the last thing
I really needed. I just needed the arm around the
shoulder from I don't know who. I don't know, maybe

(50:26):
it was myself, and I didn't do it, and I
just kept going and going and going, and it was
it was a really painful thing. And it got worse
and worse and worse and worse. And then it got
to the point where I had this opportunity to go
and do some bits for Sky and I came in
and I remember the feetback from people went, oh, well done.
I thought you're great. The other day on the Gulf,
I thought, oh wow, that felt nice. I was like,

(50:47):
say again, please, no, you did a really nice job,
said one more time, I need more of it. It's like,
oh God, at last speed sort of people going not
going all right, I just saw you shot eighty six
last week, or saw you ran out of alls at
Fancourt the other did you run out of balls? Is
that a true story? It's a true story telling as well. Well,
let's get I mean, we gotta hear it. And one

(51:07):
under after six holes, Oh I'm done. I'm not playing
on an invite down in the die data down there,
and it's I guess it's near the end something like that,
and it's and it's our course, right, but it's one
of those courses where it's fair way. It might have
been out of bounds on the edge of the fair
because it's just it's this grass like this, so you
don't find it. One hunder half the six. But I'm

(51:28):
literally standing on every time I can feel my handers
because at any given moment, what happened with my game,
for people who don't know, it was like a yip
off the tee and it would go eighty yards right,
and it was humiliating shot to hit, and it was
sorted to leak into my own plate by the end,
but it would go off the so I go bom
bom bomb, bom wolf. I do it three or four
times a day, all lost balls, right, That's what I

(51:48):
would happen in my career. So it was I'm not
good enough to give away that many penalty shots. So
on this one, one hunder a half the six and
then I started, So I had eleven out there on one.
Oh god, I had a nine on another hole and
I'm fifth seen over part stood on the sixteenth tea,
and I thought, there's one thing I can't do, and
that shoot in the nineties, and I just sat a
consci and I thought, I'm just gonna have to but

(52:09):
and I'm not one for pulling out, you know what
I mean, not gonna faked the back injury. I'm not well,
just I do just pull out and said I can't cut.
I wouldn't have lied as I said, why, I just
I can't do it. And then I thought, I'm not
I don't want to do that. And anyway, six two
five in in the junk and then that's at least
a double right coming away, and I'm like, he go

(52:29):
wrotting this guy cat Roy caddying for me. He was
actually laugh just like Tiger at pebble, but slightly different.
He says, that's your last ball. So I pick it
up and remember stood there thinking this wouldn't be so
bad if it went in there in that thick grass again,
because I could just walk in. And I didn't do
it on purpose, but I remember as I hit it,
I sort of soaring off and there was a relief

(52:50):
came over me, which in itself was scary because you
thought it was over. Yeah, because I was like, I
can I'm qualified. You know, I've run out of balls
because it was I couldn't completely round the referee and
he came if he didn't know what to say to
me as I've run out of balls, as I came
up with quite a few. So I've run out of ball,
and I know there are there's tears in the club
and it was really dark, mate. And now I can
laugh about it because I realized it wasn't important, but

(53:10):
the time was all consuming. And I think that's one
of things that we should recognize for maybe when we
watch his fans, is that for these guys, it's more
than just a job. It's it's it's a way life.
And a lot of these guys and I hear with
them at times, well you can and you can see
it and how they are. I'm not saying that I'm
enlightened compared to them, but they are still in that
state where it's it's who they are, this is who

(53:31):
I am? Who are you? On the World Number seven
is an examples like, no, you're a person who's also
megare at golf, and I think it's such a hell
And that's for me. One of the things that makes
Rory so impressive as an individual is that he has
a such great perspective on life and who he is
and what he stands for, and he's a world here

(53:51):
and I think that's really hard to come by. You
talked about what Rory mcay stands for. I mean, we
are in a very interesting time with all of this
talk about players playing on the PGA tour, other players
talking about breaking away to go to another tour. I mean, obviously,
you know, it's very there's a lot of money at stake.

(54:12):
Um when you look at it, the money aspect of
it for certain players is always going to be a huge,
huge consideration, and I think it's it's interesting that you
hear people say there's more to the life than money.
And and things like that. But as a player, how
would you try and navigate that situation if you're one

(54:34):
of the top players in the world and there was
another tour that was courting you as a player, throwing
you know, ridiculous sums of money at you. You know,
Roy's come out and said he's saying, John rom there's
other players that might be going other places. And what's
your take on all of this, because it's crazy. I mean,
I feel like I'm in high school right now. Yeah,
it's it's it's the that's way about it is that

(54:55):
there's there's lots of speculation. You know, we noticed this,
Skuy because there's a lot of rumor, and then you
guys asked about they can't talk about because the NBA's
and it becomes a complex issue for them to talk about.
I understand where some of the players that Adam Scott
the end of his career, he's looking to double up
his money. He wants to play a schedule that's easy
on him. I understand the mentality. He's also they gonna

(55:17):
have to face the other questions that I've come about
for us from it as well. But at the same time,
I find what I find quite interesting is and I
said this to the other day who I was talking
to Rex actually about this. I was like, in my generation,
I remember when I came on tour, I recognize what
had come before. And I thought at the time when
we were doing on the worst we ever played for

(55:37):
was a million pounds, which sounds like peanuts now right,
But then the big events by three million quid. I thought, wow,
ten years ago, they're playing for two barb And I
was like, how lucky am I? My grandfather made hundred
dollars for winning the Masters jacket, came tied fifty at
this first ever tournament on the on the PGA, it's
even thirty three dollars and thirty three cents. I mean

(55:57):
like for type fifties now it's probably about three grand.
So the you know, and I think, But I also
then when I finished because of my time, and I thought,
oh I missed out in the role X series. It's
eight million bucks await No. But I remember also going
to the World Golf Championships and thinking, you're going to
pay me to play badly? You no no cut, and

(56:18):
I'm gonna make money. And I granted the top players
don't think like that, and I'm obviously joking to a degree,
but I was. There's a sense of gratitude about the
people who put in place what had come before where
we were, and you knew it was going to grow after.
And you're the only thing that I do find a
bit disappointed as we as we sit in a place
where they're playing for twelve million dollars and the winner
is going to take home two point one six million
dollars and this isn't by any means a generalization for

(56:38):
the players, some of them is that I've never heard
so many people went about a little again, And I
just think, nah, so you're never gonna get You're never
going to get sympathy from the fans for that, because
in the end, it's a wonderful living. And I understand
they have family, they have goals and ambitions for what
they want to achieve, what they want to earn, and
I understand that, but they are also playing in a

(57:00):
time where if you didn't know any better about what
could be there, with what you'd find, you go, this
is amazing. Twelve million bucks for this it's a it's
not a regular PJ to away, but it's not a
world golf jumps not major. It's not the players know
they're gonna play for twenty million bucks at the players,
it's it's a great time to be a talk bro.
And the PJA two have always moved the needle. And

(57:21):
you know, I think challenging the game can sometimes be
a good thing because where there's a challenge to the
status quot, there's improvement. And I think one of the
things that certainly Rory is insinuate as well as that
the PJA talk have stepped it up because there's the
need to with the challenge, whether it be from SGL,
whether it be from PGL as well. Again and the
guy I know, the guys from PGL, the goal was
to to try and make the game more engaging. It's

(57:43):
like you know, the the goal was for So I
can't speak for SGL because I don't know they're the
working is what they do. But like for the PGL
that the whole idea about that originally was to try
and make it more engaging for the audience and then
if the audience engages, and that comes to us as
well what we do with TV, right, if they engage
the sponsors and h if the sponsors engage the audience
and the sponsors and everyone around. The game benefits for

(58:06):
it in terms of financially as well. If for that,
because the game blossoms in itself as the interest is great,
the stories are better told, there's more eyeballs on the stories,
and there's more people playing the game, and it all
helps and helps to make the game what it should be,
which is an amazing sport that's to play for life
as well. But this is the pinnacle of it. When
we sit down and watch me, one of the best
of the best go to the toe to toe and

(58:27):
you know, you come to a week like this, You've
got the top eleven players in the world team up
sixteen of the top twenty in the world on a
golf course like this, I'd like to think golfs in
pretty good shape. And the challenge to that that's come
from other places. Whatever comes to pass with it. What
I hope doesn't happen is that the game fractures further,
because the one thing that I do I have always
thought is slightly strange, is how And a great example

(58:49):
is the start of the year a deep world tour,
and then you've got Tori as well, go alongside each other.
You've got a real mix there of both. You've got
sort of like a few of the top ten in
the world here and a few of the top ten
in the world here. And it's unique that in our
sport right most sports, the best player is the best
all the time. And so I can understand the first
for trying to pull them together more often and whoever
does that, And I think more than likely that's probably

(59:11):
going to be the PGA Tour, with DP World Tour
and maybe you other tours around the world, bringing them
together in the way that they can go forward. That's
what I think we want to watch as consumers, and
hopefully for whatever is going on and happens or whatever happens.
You're right, there's a lot of noise right now, hopefully
they'll be in a better place, more enjoyment for us
all to watch. Well. I appreciate you taking time to
talk to me. I wish the people listening to the

(59:31):
podcasts that are listening in the US that don't get
to see you on Sky, I wish they got to
see you on Sky because you just do a fantastic
job and I think you're You've got a hell of
a career ahead of you in broadcasting and keep up
the t time tips. I still kind of take a
couple of those and try and put it into my game.
It doesn't it doesn't help because I've got no talent.
But the other thing is they're not magic. They're not magic,

(59:53):
they are just tips. So appreciate the time. It was
a pleasurement. So that was Nick Dodie and I'm a
big fan. I get to work a lot with Nick
when I do TV for Sky and Uh, I think
he's doing a fantastic job on TV. And it's been
fun to kind of watch his television career from when

(01:00:15):
he started in two thousand sixteen. He talked about that
it's kind of been a new lease on life for him,
kind of that second stage of his career, and just
like what he was trying to do as as as
a golfer, as a broadcaster, he has gotten so much better. Uh,
he's so much more confident in front of the camera.
I wish, like I said at the end of the pot,
I wish that, um, everybody that's not listening in the

(01:00:35):
UK could get a chance to listen to his commentary
because it's really really good. I think he'll do some
stuff for Golf Channel occasionally and stuff. But if you
get a chance check it out. He's got his tea
time tips as well, and you'll get a kind of
flavor for his personality. So let's get two questions. What
do you think are the best ways of identifying whether
a player can develop into an elite player. That's an

(01:01:00):
interesting one. I mean, certainly, when I look at players,
I look a lot at I mean, obviously you're gonna
look at their golf swing and look at kind of
what they do. Um, you kind of look at their
ball flight, see if they have a repeatable ball flight.
To me, that's that's one of the things, not not
only at the amateur level, but also at the professional level,
that that I'm huge on. Whatever shape you're trying to

(01:01:21):
hit as a player, if you're trying to hit draws,
if you're trying to hit fades, I think about it logically,
if you're trying to hit draws, the most important thing
to hit a draws the balls need to be starting
to the right of the target if you're consistently so.
If you're someone like a guy like Rory McElroy who
who tends to to favor kind of the draw that's
kind of what he did at the early stage of

(01:01:43):
his career. Yes, he's at a shot, but he's kind
of a drawer of the golf ball, or guys like
dj and Brooks that are more faders of the golf ball.
When I'm looking at players, I'm looking at can they
consistently start the golf ball in the direction that they
need to start it in to hit the shape. So
if you're a fader of the golf ball, the golf
balls pretty much all of them need to start left
of your target. If you're a drawer of the golf ball,

(01:02:03):
your balls all need to start right of the target.
I think a lot of players have balls that kind
of start at the target and then curve. They either curve,
start at the target and curve to the left, or
they start at the target and to curve to the right.
So I'm always kind of looking at players to see
kind of what their golf swing looks like. Do they
have kind of a repetitive motion and then they do
they have a repetitive shot. I'm not really interested if

(01:02:27):
if players have all the shots I think to be
an elite player at the junior level, at the college level,
and then to try and play at the professional level.
You have to be great at one shot. Then you
can add shots, and you can go ahead and add them.
And I think a lot of players that I see
are trying to get to that elite level and they're
trying to have all the shots. You know, hen Caney,

(01:02:47):
you know, famously talked about you know, Tiger had the
nine shots, the nine balls. You've gotta be able to
hit it high, hit it low, all of that. Yeah,
that's that's hugely, hugely important. But you need to be
able to hit one specific big shot that is kind
of your go to, whether it's a fade or whether
that's a draw. Um. I hear a lot of players
that that that I see, say listen, I try and

(01:03:08):
hit it straight. I don't know a lot of players
that hit it straight because rarely do you ever have
a straight shot. You know the wind is gonna be
out of one direction. So I think command over a
shape is hugely, hugely important to get to that next level,
that elite level. I think you've got to be able
to have You've got to be got to be able
to chip and pot I mean your short game to
get to an elite level. Um, it maybe might not

(01:03:30):
be the best on tour, but it can't be bad.
I mean, you can't make it to an elite level
in in golf and be a bad potter or a
bad chipper unless you are just a Adam Scott John
rom type ball striker to where you're such a good
you know, a brad facts into where you're so amazing

(01:03:51):
at putting that you can have off weeks with your
ball striking and your putting can can kind of bail
you out, and then the weeks that your ball striking
is good you have a chance to win. So UM,
I think it's it's hugely important command of shape. Whether
it's a draw, whether it's a fade, I really don't care.
But you better be able to start the golf ball
in the direction you wanted to be and you're putting

(01:04:14):
and you're chipping. It has to be average too good
to get to that next level. It can't be bad
because there's just no way that you're going to be
able to uh score what percentage of total practice should
be done from under a hundred and twenty yards I
think on tour um the wedge distances for tours is

(01:04:34):
kind of one fifty and under. Um. I think for
most amateurs, Uh, it's probably for a from a hundred
and under. Um, you've got to be able to get
the ball up and down. Um. You know the Tiger mantra.
Tigers mantra was every time he played around to golf,
he was trying to have no double or triples. Uh,
no bogies on the par fives, no three pots, and

(01:04:55):
no bogies inside of a hundred and fifty yards. The
no bogies inside of a hundred fifty yards for Tigers
is wedged since so I think for the average golfer
that hundred yard range, if you could have a hundred
yards to the flag and under and the worst you
make is par, that means you're doing a lot of
good things with your wedge work. UM. I think it's
really important that you kind of know how far your

(01:05:16):
wedges go, so you know, use some baseline numbers dial in.
You know, if you've got a flag on the range
and you've got a range finder, figure out where fifty is,
figure out where seventy five is, figure out where a
hundred is. You know, those are good kind of round numbers.
You could even you could go twenty five, fifty, seventy
five hundred, You could do that in odd numbers, you

(01:05:37):
could do even numbers. But just having an idea and
then just kind of knowing what kind of a half
swing does, a three quarter swing does, and then what
a full swing does. That's that's what DJ does. You know,
When DJ become became number one in the world and
really got to that next elite level um, his wedge
game improved where his wedge game early on in his
career wasn't good. And basically he has I think I've

(01:06:00):
talked about this in the pod before, he has three swings.
He has a half, a three quarter, and a full.
He uses a launch monitor to kind of dial in
the fields. So if you could kind of figure out,
you know what you know, film it. What does the
twenty five yards swing look like, what does a fifty
yards swing look like, what does the seventy five yards
swinging look like? And then what is a hundred yards
swing like? And figure out what clubs you're going to

(01:06:22):
hit for those yard is. I think it's hugely important.
I think can help you save shots, and I think
it can really really lower your handicap regardless of what
level you're playing at. I want to thank everyone for listening.
I keep saying it it's episode forty two. If you
haven't gone back and looked into the past episodes, we've
got some great ones. Off course, with Claude Harmon comes

(01:06:43):
to you every Wednesday. We will see you next week.

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