November 9, 2021 • 46 mins
The laughiest writer on The Office, Jen Celotta, is back and better than ever for part two of her conversation with Brian. Jen reminisces about the greatest love stories that ever were, the time she forgot she was filming a show and Steve had to remind her, and her work day on WebMD that turned into an episode.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Jen Salata and I was a writer on the Office.
Oh she's back, everybody. Hello there, Welcome to another fan
freaking tastic installment of the Office Deep Dive. As always,
(00:29):
I'm your host, Brian Baumgartner, and yeah, she is back, baby,
the lafi ist writer from our set, probably the laffiest
person on this podcast, let's be honest, the person who
actually got welts in her cheeks from trying to hold
it in. That's what she said. Uh, Jen Salata, if
(00:54):
you haven't listened to part one of our conversation, do it. Okay,
just go check that out first, because today Jen and
I circle back to talk about what it was really
like to be a writer on the Office, how she
started to blur reality from TV, and how she helped
(01:15):
write some of the most classic love stories in modern history,
from Michael and Holly The Match Made in Heaven, to
Dwight and Angela The Match Made in No. I don't
know anyways. I love Jen. Jen is was always an
(01:35):
absolute delight to have on set. And let me tell you,
she has some stories. And speaking of stories, seamless transition
right there, we have a place for you to see
a bunch of stories the greatest stories ever. Right now
(01:56):
you can pre order on Amazon. It's called Well, Come
to dunder Mifflin, The Ultimate Oral History of the Office.
It comes out next week if you're listening to this
live ish all right, So if you love this podcast,
if you love this show, I will guarantee you, well guarantee,
I can garronty you're gonna love this book too. And
(02:21):
well the other thing I can guaranty, of course, is
that you're going to love the Wonderful, the Brilliant, the
Magnificent Friend of Mine that is coming on right now,
Jen Silata, Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and
(02:44):
squeakan Bubble and Squeaker cook at every month lift over
from the Night before. Where did the idea behind getting
Dwight and Angela together and come from? Oh my gosh,
(03:08):
I would imagine it was something from the O G Gang,
like Greg or Mike or I or Paul. I'm not sure.
I just remember the idea that the two of them
were so strong and so specific, and I think I
couldn't see dwighte with anyone, and it couldn't see Angela
with anyone except wait a minute, maybe you can't see
(03:31):
either of them with anyone except maybe it was one
of these like two things that have something in common.
They would repel a lot of things, but maybe not
each other. So I think that there was some fascination
in terms of how un Jim and Pam it was
and how it could be played for even more comedy,
(03:54):
you know, just the comedy romance was the exciting part
of that for us. Of course, I like the lay
years and levels, so would want a tiny little bit
of pathos in that or just to see the tiniest
little undercurrent, not immediately but of the two of them
going through something that they want. But the comedy of
them was I think the impetus for for that and
seeing wanting to see Dwight in a romance and see
(04:17):
her in a romance like that just seems like you
don't want to look exactly. Um, going back, do you
recall could you imagine that their wedding would end up
ending the show? I don't think I could have known that. No,
I mean I was hopeful for it, but um, but
(04:40):
I think what was cool about that show and felt brave.
I think there was a bravery about Greg that is like,
let's just go for it. Let's just go for it
and we'll see, right And and in general, people would
ask like, how much did you know about the end
of the season from where you started at the beginning,
And we would just carve out thirteen because something could
come up in that thirteen that was so unexpected and
delightful we'd want to follow that more. Or something could
(05:02):
not work for some reason. You don't know necessarily. I mean,
I think there was a lot of faith in Dwight
and Angela, but we always left ourselves open to how
something could pop or not pop or you know. But yeah,
I don't know that I would have thought ending the
whole series like I would have thought it was like,
you know, it's still I don't even think I would
have known we were going that many years. I mean,
(05:24):
it's just like I was so excited. I certainly hoped so,
But um, why do you think the fans responded so
much to Jim and Pam God? I think they're so
gifted that I feel like it was the right storyline
with the right two actors. There was like a chemistry
(05:44):
and a dynamic between the two of them. One of
my favorite things I got to do with them was
the Jinx episode where they didn't speak. I couldn't believe
the moments I was getting where you know, there's a
moment where Pam, you know, says, Oh, what are you
going to tell me something? Oh, you can't tell me something?
And he wanted to say that he liked her, right,
but he's now has to be silent. But she says,
(06:05):
what is there something you want to tell me that
you can't And he looks just like his stomach drops
and he turns white and he looks down and then
you see her see that he did that, and know
what that means. They were so incredibly gifted as like
they could be silent film stars. I really feel like
the dynamic between the two of them, But I also
think it was Greg's thing. And I keep kind of
(06:27):
saying this kind of thing in different ways of like
the Beauty, the pop of Beauty and the Gray, like
having an episode that's not about them or is about
you know, you guys are Dwight or Michael, and then
having this little pop of Jim and Pam not overdoing
it when it felt like it was doing stuff when
it wasn't even doing stuff. Just seeing that Jim and
Pam were in the background of a scene where you're like,
they like each other, but they're not getting together. Was
(06:49):
this thing that I feel like fans were rooting force.
You could have go to this anybody in this ensemble
and give them a fantastic storyline and still feel the
yearning between the two of the you know what I mean,
it's like and it will because it wasn't accelerated so quickly.
The best things were things we had to reach for,
(07:10):
and the fact that they weren't front and center. The
fact that the pressure wasn't on them made us want
to I don't know, just made us enjoy it. Yeah.
So when Holly is brought in, do you remember any
conversation about where Michael ends his journey on the show
being with her or was this just a limited thing.
(07:32):
I can't quite remember what we've said about like ending
the show. I just remember all the discussions about Jan
and whether or not to evolve him and Holly. The
decision of Holly came out of the decision to evolve
Michael's character passed Jan and to a point where he
was finding a peer. So we wanted somebody who was
a peer relationship and it didn't necessarily I mean in
(07:55):
my mind and have to be that it would be
her and her forever, but that she would be the
first person that you know, was really appear for him
and that he evolved. Michael would have picked. So if
we wrote the character right and if it worked out,
if she left him or if he left her, that
he would be devastated, that it would be a real
(08:16):
peer relationship, and then the consequences of a real pure relationship,
the fact that she was so fantastic, and then we
got to keep her around and keep using her as
in our biggest dreams she would be she would be
Michael's person. I remember when we wrote the first episode
that she was in Paul and I and Paul had
the first half and I had the second half, and
Paul all that Yoda stuff was just pure Paul, just genius.
(08:37):
I read it and I was like, holy sh it,
this is fantastic because she's Michael, but she's different enough,
And it was sort of like, how do we get
somebody that is a peer for him, that adores him. Um,
that is goofy but also like him. You just want
you love her, you feel her. You She's so sweet
(08:58):
and you just you know, excited for her and um
so the dynamic between the two of them I thought
was phenomenal. So so as soon as we saw that,
it was an instant yes, this is this is going
to work because you can think about it and you
can write that he's going to have somebody that's kind
of a little bit more involved. But I think as
soon as we saw that, we just fell in love
(09:18):
with them, right things in your head at first and
you're like, is this going to work? Like what if
we evolved him past jan and we write this character
of Holly you know, this is before noise, any and everything,
and then what if it's just boring and it's not
funny and it doesn't work. So there was stakes on
this of like, oh, like how do we do this?
And um, thank god Paul wrote those Yoda scenes, like
(09:42):
you know, yeah, thank god. Um. Rain and I got
into a conversation where I, well, what I said to
him was that I consider Twight and Michael to be
one of the greatest comedy duos of all times. Where
(10:04):
do you feel like they fit in in terms of
sort of the legacy of comedy duos? So I agree completely.
I think they were just one of the best. They're
up there with the greatest, I think their abilities individually
and then bouncing off of each other. They were so
specific in Dwight's wanting to be more than he is
(10:25):
in Michael's eye. I mean, I'm thinking of drug testing.
When Michael asked for Dwight's herein it's like the ultimate
ask is like going against his ethics and responsibilities as
a sheriff. But then this is Michael asking him, and
then they're both just so crazy gifted. I mean, there
were times where I just had to leave the room,
like I couldn't. I was gonna laugh and I was
going to ruin a take, so I had to I
(10:46):
had to get out of there. Like you were maybe
the laughiest writer. I was so bad. It was so bad. Yeah,
you funny? How am I like you put any human
being in a situation with you guys in that area
and a bullpen in What are you supposed to do? Like?
How do you not laugh? Like I was biting my
cheek at times, Like I would go home and like
(11:07):
I'd have a little like welts and stuff I had.
I had a trick? Was your trick? I had a trick?
I had I had a trick at times. I mean,
it was just mostly And it's funny because where I
really remember you laughing, as in the Talking Heads again,
where you're well in that same room, in the conference room.
That was where it was the most difficult, because somehow
(11:28):
you felt trapped. You couldn't turn around, you couldn't turn
to the side, like you couldn't find a pole to
hide behind, like there was sort of nothing to be done.
So I said, your index finger and my thumb. I
would take that and I would bury my fingernail into
the side of my thumb. And it was just trying
(11:49):
to just think about that small amount of pain that
was there and not Steve being prison Mike or whatever.
It was insane not doing that. There was one moment
with Rain where Greg and I were there. I don't
remember who was writing and directing. I think he was
directing and I was the writer, and we were sitting
there across from Greg and Matt Soon is there and
(12:09):
Dwight is talking and he's doing a talking head. I
cannot remember the topic. But Greg leaps, he leaps. He
can't be in the room, so he leaves and he's
like outside of the stage even and then I move
and sit in his chair so he can have eyeline,
and then I leave. I can't do it. I leave,
And so basically Rain is sitting there and being like,
is that okay? Did anyone see that? Is it? Okay?
(12:30):
Can move on, like nobody's there. But it happened with you.
I remember happening with you several times. And what happened
with you is that just you could see your brain work,
You can see yourself thinking, and there were just moments
where I knew what was coming up or I knew
what was going to happen, and it's just just delightful
journey of you getting to what you were going to say.
(12:51):
And I was like, I'm not gonna I'm gonna lose
my ship, and so I would bite my cheek, but
half the time it was just lose it. It was
like an exposure of psychology for my laughing. Yes, Gregg
talked about the cast too, so not just Michael and Dwight,
but you know the Accountant's Corner, but Dwight and Jim
as well, and it really everybody fit together like a puzzle. Yeah, God,
(13:15):
it was such a gift. I mean to come in.
I came in after the casting process obviously, and I
was just so impressed with all of you guys. It
was phenomenal, just like so strong, such good comic actors,
but also so specific in terms of your characters. It
felt like you guys were living in those characters you were.
You were just so true to them so that you
could be delighted when you know, Angela would come over
(13:38):
and ask you to do something. It was just you
were amused already because you just knew that. Like, you
guys were so dialed in and you were just going
to knock it out of the park. What do you
think makes Michael a great leading man? I think that
he cares so much about the people that he were
(14:00):
works with. It's his family. He doesn't have a family
outside of that, so it's very important that things go
well and he's rooting for them. But at the same time,
he is so uh different in the way it approaches everything.
I think the contrast between caring so much and liking
the people that he works with and loving them and
(14:21):
wanting them to do well, and yet not having the
ability that he should have as a manager at all,
like that tension is fascinating to me. I think you
asked about Michael, but I think Steve is such a genius.
You know, we could get away with more because he
was so gifted. We could push because he could he
(14:42):
could have that undercurrent of humanity and where it's coming from,
underneath the broadest thing. I mean, certainly there were lines,
but we could push that so far and still have
it read true. And I remember, you know, seeing first
season of the Office, seeing four year old Virgin, and
then I was just like, Oh, there's nothing this man
(15:04):
can't do. I mean, he would do takes completely differently,
give you all these different sides of things and sides
of him. I just felt for him. I felt for
him enormously because he could do the sillier joke ere thing,
but there always was the truth and the reality that
was grounding it. I always felt where he was coming from.
I always felt like he wanted to connect or didn't
(15:26):
want to disappoint or you know, like, I don't know.
He's just extraordinary. So it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous because you
can have you laugh and then in a in another
moment you can just cry, and he can just turn there.
There was a moment and I don't remember I think
I was. I wrote it and I wasn't directing, but
(15:47):
I was on set and he was doing a scene
with Holly and they were having this kind of intimate
scene and then they started laughing about something and I
started laughing and he Steve turned to me. I think
this is the ploper real. Actually hey, he turned to me,
and I was like, oh my god, I'm sorry. He's like,
we're acting here, Like he just was laughing but he
(16:08):
was laughing. They were laughing so real, which is of
course what acting is. But like I was like, oh,
they broke because it's just just just feels too real.
And so there were just moments with him where I like,
I couldn't I just couldn't tell, you know, because it
was just so true. Yeah. I haven't asked anybody this,
but it just occurring to me. Do you do you
think that there was because of Steve's ability to improvise?
(16:34):
Did you feel like the words that the writers were
writing were less precious on this show than anywhere else
or did that game not change? I personally, I feel
like they weren't so precious. I think, especially with him.
Everybody was so talented on the show, but Steve had
(16:56):
an ability to understand so much the subtext of all
the text that I felt like changing things up or
adding something always. I mean, I think of Oscar kissing
Oscar and Gay witch Hunt. It was like the best moment,
one of the best moments of the whole show. And
it's just you knew it was on story, it was
on theme, and it was funnier than what was scripted.
(17:17):
So I felt like he had great respect for the text,
but he had this ridiculous ability to understand everything in
such depth that if he was going to change things up,
it was always going to honor the intention. Yeah, I've
been asking people who was the greater loss, Michael or Steve. Oh, Steve.
(17:48):
I mean I wasn't there, but I just feel like
everybody saw what genius he was with the Michael Scott character,
but getting to see him outside of that, and how,
you know, good he was with everybody else. I mean,
we'd have like, I remember, we had an actor come
in who was very young and very new, and Steve
just working with his performance and dialing in different directions
(18:10):
so that he could help this person get up to
that level, you know, And there were so many kind
hearted things he did that, like you know, Michael Scott
was brilliant, but to know that that's who he's playing
with any steps out of that role and just as
a human was just such a good man. I have
(18:32):
to say, Steve, did you ever think of Greg as
(18:53):
a teacher? M hm. I feel like I learned an
enormous amount from Greig. I'm trying to think of the
thing my my greatest takeaways from being Greg. I had
been writing for a while by the time I was
working with Greg, and so I think that even though
(19:13):
there were writing things to learn, I think I learned
a lot of things about leadership that I really was
kind of focused on or thinking about. He was phenomenally
good at story and so many things. So I learned
from just being around him about how he approaches and
how he attacks things. But I'm just going to try
to think about the things now. I'm my brain. I'm
sort of thinking about it live. I have a little
(19:34):
bit of a d D D. If you haven't noticed that.
One thing is he had this idea about blue skying,
where he would say, let's think about the ideas in
this area, and we would think about it, and we
would just think about throw out ideas, throw out ideas.
Even when we had great or even excellent ideas, He's like,
keep going. So the amount of times we had something
(19:56):
that was great and he would come in and challenge
and test and want to take it and shaken and
turn it upside down. Every time we did that, we
came up with something better. It wasn't lateral, it wasn't worse.
It wasn't that we should have stayed with that first thing.
It was better. So the fact that he hired people
that were so animated and passionate, and he wasn't scared
(20:16):
of somebody who would constantly challenge him, you know, like
he wanted to have people who would fight him on
stuff in the room. He wanted wherever the idea came
from that was best. He just wanted that idea in there.
It did not have to be his idea. And I've
worked with show runners who are brilliant, but it had
to be their stamp had to be on something. But
to his credit, he uh got a group of people
(20:39):
that all thought differently and that we're going to fight
in the room about things that mattered to them. They
all gave a ship and they all thought and I've
been fortunate enough to work with a bunch of different people,
and I sort of divided everybody into all the show
runners I've worked with into I Basically I told Greg this.
I said, they're all control freaks because you have to
be some level of, you know, really caring and being
(21:00):
very meticulous about what you put out into the world.
But I think there are control freaks with egos and
control freaks without egos, And the difference between creating a
show with that kind of vibe where you have somebody
very smart, filtering everything and deciding it, but wants to
hear everything and wants to be challenged, and if he
doesn't agree with you, I'm going to come back and
(21:22):
say it three more times, you know what I mean?
Like there's I with the no sound of the proposal.
I I just was beating that drum for weeks because
it meant that much to me. But um, steaks and
escalation and surprise and all those things he's such a
master at. And some of those um either I relearned
or learned a Greg way of doing things that was phenomenal.
(21:43):
But I kept thinking about leadership when I was working
with him. So interesting, so other than blue skying, if
there's anything else specifically about the work in the writer's room,
or because was like a beautiful mind in there. I
don't know if anyone's told you that. Note cards everywhere,
thousands and thousands of note cards, fragments, piece is of cards,
pieces of stories, character, um things. You'd look at a
(22:04):
card and you were like, I have no idea what
this card means, Like you have to try to remember, um,
candy bags, you know, like I didn't know candy bags
before the office, which was we would have, you know,
a thirty five forty page scripts sometimes and eventually it
would be twenty minutes or twenty one minutes. And then
additionally we would have sometimes a sixty or eighty page
joke bag. So like for every talking head of of yours,
(22:26):
we'd have ten additional talking heads if we had the
time and you know, we could get to them, we'd
have alternate jokes for scenes. Um, yeah, I think that
them trying to think of other Greg things that were specific,
I could tell a story if you want about Greg
and I trying to write a script together. Um, I
wonder if I should say that. I think you'd be
(22:48):
fine with this, But I had to write an episode
with Greg at one point, I mean, I'd love to
write an episode, but like we both usually wrote alone,
and then we were going to try and write together.
And my process at the beginning of writing is a
lot of fascinating and just like procrastinating and then panic
and then writing. Um So I remember we sat down
to write and both of us seemed like we were
(23:10):
just sort of like it's one of those writer things
where you just make sure the temperature is exactly right,
you have all the pencils exactly sharpened. Should we ordered lunch,
maybe sorder lunch, or should we you know, go for
a walk, like makes more sure. You know, you're just
kind of avoiding getting to it because it's hard. It's wonderful,
but it's hard. And um, I think at that moment,
he he was having some sort of a I don't
(23:30):
remember it was a back thing or shoulder thing, and
I was having an ear problem, and so like we
looked up I think on web MD, like what was
going on with my ear? And like I think we
he got me to put some like olive oil from
the kitchen in my ear because I was like, I
think that this will help. And we're sitting there and
we're on web m D and we're just not starting.
We're not starting. We're just diagnosing what's wrong with my
(23:52):
ear and what's wrong with this back, and we're spending
a lot of time doing this, and eventually we just like,
he's like, I'm gonna write Act one. You go right?
Actually like where we can't. We cannot sit together and
do this because it's like taking the individual traits of
this and and exponentially magnifying it. But we turned it
into a Michael and Dwight. Uh they're on web m
D and Dwight is like, point to your body where
(24:15):
it hurts, and he doesn't. It's like something's wrong with
your uterus or your ovaries. Anyway, Very often what was
happening in our lives became in office episode That was
me actually writing a script with the genius Greg, but
seeing that writers are all the same when they're we
can avoid for a little bit starting hard stuff. That's
(24:36):
so amazing. That sounds like so both of you too.
Um So when Greg left season five, you and Paul
are show runners. Yes, so what how did he go
about asking you? Oh my gosh, I can't um, I
kind of want to tell you another story, but it's
going to be circular again. It doesn't matter. Okay, I
(24:57):
want to tell you another story and then we'll go
back and then you can just slice place the And UM.
I told Greg this, and I think he he doesn't
remember this or he denies this. But early on Greg
asked Mike and Paul and I to sort of be um,
I'm terrible at military things lieutenants. Is that like a
person like underneath the case he's the captain, Like, okay,
so we were going to kind of be underneath him
(25:17):
and take over some responsibilities, you know. So he said
we were going to be meeting like once a week,
and we were just talking about certain things and like
maybe divide up like you know. Mike was going to
be responsible for some things and Paul and I and
then ultimately we report back to Greg. Greg would be
in charge, but everything he was just getting some help.
And I remember he gave a memo UM, and it
was kind of like, Okay, we're gonna meet every Monday
(25:38):
in UM in this room here, and it's going to
be from you know, nine o'clock to ten o'clock. And
I think there was like one rule and the rule
was something like say things if you can, and like
the quickest amount of time that you can say that.
There was something like that. It was very polite and
it was very it was like okay. It was basically
like kind of try to stay on track. And then
(25:58):
I'm like thinking about it, and I'm like, Mike is
very sustinct. He likes to talk and he's very sustinct
and he says everything and Paul doesn't talk that much.
And I was like, this memo is telling me not
to talk so much. Now, this is not Greg trying
to quiet you know, a writer, because Greg like always
but I talked a lot. I really was like, this
(26:20):
is like him saying, you know, try to try to
be careful and how you pick what you're saying, and
like he can get down to the things that are important.
So the takeaway needs to not be Greg was trying
to quiet me, but more that I talked a whole
hell of a lot. So it's like you wrote that
memo for me. There's no we knew what room to
be and we knew what time it was. This was
a memo to say stopped talking all the time. He's like,
(26:43):
I don't think I did that anyway. So so Paul
and I had some responsibilities, and we had been for
some things. Yeah, you and Mike and Paul had had
some responsibilities and fire responsibilities leading into this, so we
would start to run rooms. So I just think that, Um,
I don't remember actually him like the day that he
(27:03):
asked us, but I remember being very excited, you know,
like I was nervous. Of course, I wanted to do
a good job, and we felt an enormous amount of responsibility.
But I also felt like he wasn't like, you know,
get on a boat and leave. It wouldn't be able
to contact him, and he would, you know, help us
to navigate this and we'd be able to ask questions. Um,
do you remember anything about you know, you're running the
(27:25):
show now and NBC. I understand there was some pressure
about bringing in some A list star for the Super
Bowl episode. Do you remember anything about that. Yeah. I
always feel like you just don't want to be taken
out of the moment of the show. And I sort
of remember for the first time, I feel like NBC
(27:46):
was so good and they gave such good notes, and
I felt like they just really trusted Greg and they
trusted the writers and the actors certainly, but I do
feel like the Super Bowl put pressure on the powers
that be so that it was a little bit of
I remember hearing this, and it could be incorrect, but
this is how I remember hearing that. The goal was
(28:08):
to write an Office episode that all of the fans
who already fans of the Office would know and love
because it's their favorite show, and we're going to just
write a typical Office episode. However, at the same time,
an Office episode that's not like an Office episode, so
that we can get new fans in. Like so, I
was like, these two things contradict each other. There's no
(28:28):
way to do this, And I think that became one
of our hardest stories to break, because we came up
with other stories and ended up throwing out more stories
on the way to that final story than any other episode,
because we were trying to appease to our fans and
also maybe broaden it a little bit more to get
new fans who needed to have something some bells and
(28:51):
whistles of some other kind to then get them in
and then we'll still be the same Office. But so,
I think the idea to put the celebrities in a
movie was a better idea of how to handle that.
But I think I remember pushing back on the celebrity
thing because I never like when something bigger comes into
our world. Are you proud of your your year show running?
(29:15):
I am? I am. I am proud of it. I
feel like we did a good job. I don't know
if I could be the one to judge it, but
but I'm particularly proud in the Michael Scott Paper Company
because it was kind of towards the end of the
year and we were tired, you know, and it was
a fun thing to do. And it was a little
bit of a risk and a huge risk because we had,
(29:37):
you know, three of our characters going off. But you know,
it was hard but very very rewarding, and I feel like, yeah,
it was one of my favorite years. So you go
from being a writer to being a lieutenant to being
a co showrunner and then you started directing. How was
that for you to be on set and directing Crime
(29:57):
Made was the first episode? Crime was the first one?
And this is um, I don't know if you know this,
but on Beach Games, which was just a crazy episode,
like a forty two page script, it was an now
or maybe longer actually two quick tell you two quick things.
One was that there was just so much to do
and we didn't have the time. I think it was
one of Ed Helms's first episodes. Two I can't remember
(30:19):
when he joined the cast, not overly that long after
he joined Scranton. I remember we were going to put
him in a sumo suit and we were going to
pull him out in the middle of the lake, and
I remember I had to go. There was so much
chaos that he was like in hair and makeup or something.
I don't remember what it was. But he missed the
safety meaning and he like he mad, you know, maybe
he was briefed. I'll say, you know he was briefed
(30:41):
on it, but I remember very specifically hearing that there
were water snakes and where we're not to tell him.
But I don't think I did. Was I think they're
near the edges. I didn't want that to be in
his head. I didn't want to be scared on top
of it. So I'm sorry if I know that somebody
didn't supposedly briefed him, but I did hear them say
the water stakes part. I'm like, I don't know what
(31:02):
to do here, because if I would not want to
know that, but I think but that was a moment
from Beach Games. But it was I think it was
because of the chaos that there was a lot happening
at once, and so I ended up at one point
Kent called and we we had to stop. We had
to stop. It was like we went over and then
(31:24):
we went over again, and we went over again, and
we have like forty five seconds to get this scene right.
And he calls me and he's like, he's like upset.
I understand it's he's got to get the scene. And
I make this decision of like I can either explain
to you why I don't have time to talk to
you right now and how if you let me have
this forty five seconds we will get everything and we
will stop, or I can go do it. So I
(31:45):
just like quietly he's like talking kind of loudly. I
just put the phone on a chair and to like,
let's go and then we get it. And we got it.
So I was like it was one of those moments
where I was like, we won't get it if, you know,
keep having discussion about how you want to get it.
And it wasn't as following was upset and it was
the last minute. But during that in the very last
(32:06):
day of shooting, there was just so much and we
had a lot of things kind of spill over because
it's just a huge episode. There was one moment where
Harold Ramos said to me, you go do the people,
I'll do the tech stuff for this scene. Like we
divided up as a showrunner or whatever. I was able
to kind of communicate with you anyway, but normally on
a set as the director that speaks, you know, so
he was like, go kind of communicate what you want
(32:27):
and what's in the scene, and I'll kind of work
on the camera stuff. So I guess he had mentioned
and this is more about Harold Ramus just being incredibly
generous than about my abilities. I can swear to you
that at the time, but he had mentioned to Greg
that maybe I should be directing. So Greg had asked
me if I wanted to do it, and I was like, oh,
a thousand percent, yes. I was super nervous when I
(32:49):
first started directing. Um. I remember Ed or somebody else
I think it was Ed had said, you know, fake
it till you make it, like it's an advice in
you know, And I was like, I can't fake it.
I'm just gonna look like I don't know what I'm doing.
So I just researched and studied and tried to knew
that you guys were phenomenal and nobody was gonna make
me look bad because if I just screwed something up,
(33:11):
you guys would elevate it. No one would notice. Well,
I don't know about that. Somebody would have maybe not us,
but yet. Okay, So then after season five, you and
(33:40):
Paul are both in charge and you decide to to
take a step back. Why did you decide to do that?
So this is such a hard thing to explain because
it was my favorite job ever. I felt so lucky,
I said, felt so blessed to be on that staff.
It was the show that most mashed my sensibilities, Like
I felt like I won the lottery. I really really did.
I think it happened, and I don't know if it
(34:01):
was because we were doing so many episodes a year,
but I just started to get a little bit, like
it's a weird thing to say because the show was,
you know, phenomenal, but I started to get a little
bit bored in that, Like I wasn't able to think
in the same way and come up with the same
kind of stories and characters and moments. And it got harder,
and I think part of me too, there was something
(34:22):
pushing me more and more and more to write original material,
to be challenged, to throw myself off the deep end
and have to create a world of my own. You know.
I really just also wanted to I wanted to be
able to bring my a game, and I felt like,
I think I wanted a little bit of a new challenge.
But it was an incredibly difficult position, and um, I
(34:45):
wonder if I can tell the story, I'm gonna tell it,
and then I can just always ask him if it's
okay to say about whatever. I decided I was going
to leave, and it was incredibly difficult. Um, And I
told Jean, I said, you know, I'm gonna end up
telling Greig that I'm going to leave, and like it was,
you know, difficult for me, you know whatever, But I
just said, don't say anything. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna
(35:06):
do it, you know, But I just want to let
you know. I don't know why. I just felt an
affinity to those guys. And Jeane laughed and he taught
me a lesson I keep to this day. He laughed
and he said, I think it's funny that you think
I'm thinking of anything other than myself at any given moment. Like,
I'm not gonna tell him. And I went up to
tell Greg, and this was a Friday, and I was like,
(35:27):
I'm just gonna get it over with and I go
to the I'll go to his office and I start crying,
like on the way to his office, and I was like,
not today. Ladies don't cry at work, which I have
cred at work. But I was like, so I just
turned around and I couldn't tell him. And then I
told him then on Monday, but I was just in
it was that painful. I just felt like I wanted
a new challenge. I loved everybody so much though, that
(35:48):
it was such a difficult decision, and I just felt like, um, yeah, yeah,
I remember you telling me on set. I don't know why,
but I just remember thinking, oh, well, that's a real loss.
Thank you for saying that. I it was really really
(36:09):
hard for me. I loved you guys, I mean I
just loved you, and it was awkward for me too,
because I felt like it was a hard thing to
explain because I didn't know how to say it, because
I didn't think the two things matched up. This was
the best job I ever had. It was the most
aligned with what I love to do. I love the
cast more than any other cast I've been with. I
(36:29):
love the writers, and so I was frustrating myself for
a while, and I spent some months trying to decide
it because I was like, what's wrong with my brain
that I can't say? I mean literally, I just like,
I just start being frustrated in myself of like, you know,
what the hell? But I think it was just wanting
at that point, and I had done other shows I
(36:50):
started at I started on Home Improvement, I came up
with whatever Wilson said, you know, like a lot of
the Wilson stuff in his backyard. So I've been writing
for a long time, and I think I wasn't necessarily
brave enough to go out and try to write things
of my own. And I think the Office. In fact,
just remembering this right now, when I was telling Greg this,
(37:11):
I felt like I was brave enough and confident enough
to go off and do my own things because of
my experience on the Office. And He's like, I did
this to you. I created this, I created you wanted
to leave. I was like, so, yeah, it was a difficult.
It was really difficult for me. Um, why do you think, well,
(37:35):
the show is bigger now in pop culture than it
ever was when it was airing on NBC on Thursday nights.
Why do you think people are connecting to it like
they haven't or not that they haven't, But why has
it become such a phenomenon? Well, um, maybe the part
A is to just compliment it. But I'm just I
(37:58):
just think Greg and you guys, and you know, everybody
created such a kind of almost timeless comedy show where
it's like you very much relate to the people, and
there's such heart and it was well written. The actors,
everybody brought such comedy and some pathos and everything to it.
So I think that it's one of those like lightning
(38:19):
in a bottle things where everything coalesced at the right
all together to create this thing. And then I think
people don't sit down to watch TV at a certain
time on a certain night. It's like people want to
have it when they want to have it. They want
to like I think I read Billie Eilish has watched
every episode eleven times, and she said that she has
it on the in the background sometimes when she's just
(38:41):
in her tour bus likes other things to do, Like
I feel like there's something kind of comforting about at
the relationships that you relate to and that there's it's
so real, but you want to be able to put
it on when you want to put it on, and
especially younger people, so that they just can, you know,
watch it whenever they want to digest it and watch it.
And so I also think that there's something happening right
(39:01):
now where everybody is so fragment and everybody is so divided.
There's a comfort that comes, which is weird because I
think it is subversive and it is crazy, but there's
a comfort that it's like I know these people, They're
like me, I know these people. I feel safe here
instead of like, you know, whatevers go else is going
on around you. You can kind of retreat into that
in a weird way. I felt that way when the Mr.
(39:22):
Rogers movie. I was like, oh God, just come hug
me and Mr Rodgers again and again. And there's like
a weird thing which is subversive and it you know,
but I do think that you feel like you know them,
you feel like they're family, and then it makes you
feel you can kind of disappear with them and stay
with them for a while. It's not a one off
(39:43):
and you care about all you guys who cared about
the characters. Right. What are you most thankful for in
your experience on the show? Getting to be a part
of it? I mean really just getting to be there,
um I I would say overall, just being a part
of it, getting to be in that writer's room and
(40:03):
getting to work with you guys, getting to work with
the actors. Um. It made me realize what is possible
and what at the best something could be. Yeah, I
just feel so. I feel so lucky and grateful. On
on a on a smaller note, I think you know,
I was talking about Greg and him being brave. I
also think that he hired people that he believed in,
(40:27):
but he also trusted them, and so there were some moments.
There was a moment that really helped me, and this
is actually what I was referencing when I was leaving
the show. Um, there was a moment with grief counseling
actually where Greg got it and Steve got it and
I got it, but it was a hard episode to
put flags on and say this is what's happening to
(40:48):
the character because it was so internal, and I think
we had some notes of like make sure the audience
understands what's happening. And knew I knew, Steve did, I
knew Greg didn't. I know I did it. But are
people going to be a little confused with this? Are
they not? So? Greg went through my episode and was
maybe trying to put little sign posts that if we
(41:08):
needed them, great, they're there. If not, we'll pull him
out in editing, and he was trying to sort of
navigate this and I had written it in a way
that it was difficult to do that. So after about
six or eight hours for Better for Wars, I don't
think it was all like beautifully written in a way
that was intractable, but like I think that it was
everything depended on the last thing. He was one of
(41:30):
those where it was like he was literally going through
all the stages of grief, and Greg at one point
came to me and said, I want you to go
into your office. I want you to think about anything
that we did to try to put the signposts in
or any jokes that you know, we came up with
that we should add or not add or whatever whatever,
(41:50):
And I want you to figure out what do you
want it to be? What do you not wanted to
be one of those things? Do you want? And then
we're going to shoot whatever you come out of your
office with. And that moment was like, Okay, there was
such faith and such trust, and that gave me such
a huge lift, I mean in my career, in my
own confidence level, and that actually I referenced when I
(42:13):
was leaving. He's like, wait a minute, I caused this,
But I think that personally, professionally writer wise, that meant
a lot to me because I had been on staffs
of shows where someone didn't get my sensibility, get my
sense of humor, or you spend a lot of time
trying to get something in someone else's voice that you
(42:34):
don't believe in as much. So I felt very grateful.
But the quick answer is I felt very grateful to
be at the party. Well, you've said a number of
times that their connection to us, but the characters are
creation by the actors in conjunction with the writers, and
your contribution to the show and your your leadership throughout
(42:57):
multiple seasons, but you leading it in one is some
huge Well thank you. I just thank you. I felt
so lucky to be there. Thank you, thank you so
much for coming in. Oh I hope so I took
you longer then I should have. I didn't even talk
(43:18):
about that. Can I tell you one quick thing? Oh yes,
I literally got talked to you once about it, not
not in a like, but like sure and Greg were like,
could you be a tiny bit more selective in the
amount of times you say that's what she said? But
that just made me in the room as a as
a person because constantly I so Greg ended up thinking
that there were two parts of my brain, one that
(43:40):
was thinking of comedy and story and the other one
was just trolling for that's what she said set up.
So what they did is they just made me more
clever about it. Like I would have scenarios where like
five people involved with it and it would be like
three levels of dialogue deep, and then I'd be like,
that's what she said. So it just made my brain
work harder. But I spent a lot of time I'm
up in the writers room saying that's what she said,
(44:02):
because I would constantly hear that set up? Who came
up with it? BJ? Brought it into the show? Um,
I think it was something that pre existed and then
he brought up brought it into the show. But it
was definitely b J. But I have been credited for
it only because I said so many times that people
are like, what the fuck? Yeah, no, b J brought
(44:23):
it up, but I took it in right. Um, Okay,
thank you? What did I tell you? Oh? Jen is
(44:49):
the absolute best. Thanks for joining me, Jen, I am
so glad that the world got to hear well from
the woman behind the words. And to everyone else, thank
you for listening. And guess what ding ding ding ding ding?
Special announcement Why don't you come back tomorrow? Yeah, because
(45:10):
I am launching the rest of my conversation with our
spectacular writer Mike Sure or you might know him as
Dwight's weirdo cousin mows. See you tomorrow, everyone. The Office.
(45:32):
Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner,
alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is
Tessa Kramer. Our producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia.
My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our
theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend
Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandski.
(46:00):
Mmmmmmm
I'm Jen Salata and I was a writer on the Office.
Oh she's back, everybody. Hello there, Welcome to another fan
freaking tastic installment of the Office Deep Dive. As always,
(00:29):
I'm your host, Brian Baumgartner, and yeah, she is back, baby,
the lafi ist writer from our set, probably the laffiest
person on this podcast, let's be honest, the person who
actually got welts in her cheeks from trying to hold
it in. That's what she said. Uh, Jen Salata, if
(00:54):
you haven't listened to part one of our conversation, do it. Okay,
just go check that out first, because today Jen and
I circle back to talk about what it was really
like to be a writer on the Office, how she
started to blur reality from TV, and how she helped
(01:15):
write some of the most classic love stories in modern history,
from Michael and Holly The Match Made in Heaven, to
Dwight and Angela The Match Made in No. I don't
know anyways. I love Jen. Jen is was always an
(01:35):
absolute delight to have on set. And let me tell you,
she has some stories. And speaking of stories, seamless transition
right there, we have a place for you to see
a bunch of stories the greatest stories ever. Right now
(01:56):
you can pre order on Amazon. It's called Well, Come
to dunder Mifflin, The Ultimate Oral History of the Office.
It comes out next week if you're listening to this
live ish all right, So if you love this podcast,
if you love this show, I will guarantee you, well guarantee,
I can garronty you're gonna love this book too. And
(02:21):
well the other thing I can guaranty, of course, is
that you're going to love the Wonderful, the Brilliant, the
Magnificent Friend of Mine that is coming on right now,
Jen Silata, Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and
(02:44):
squeakan Bubble and Squeaker cook at every month lift over
from the Night before. Where did the idea behind getting
Dwight and Angela together and come from? Oh my gosh,
(03:08):
I would imagine it was something from the O G Gang,
like Greg or Mike or I or Paul. I'm not sure.
I just remember the idea that the two of them
were so strong and so specific, and I think I
couldn't see dwighte with anyone, and it couldn't see Angela
with anyone except wait a minute, maybe you can't see
(03:31):
either of them with anyone except maybe it was one
of these like two things that have something in common.
They would repel a lot of things, but maybe not
each other. So I think that there was some fascination
in terms of how un Jim and Pam it was
and how it could be played for even more comedy,
(03:54):
you know, just the comedy romance was the exciting part
of that for us. Of course, I like the lay
years and levels, so would want a tiny little bit
of pathos in that or just to see the tiniest
little undercurrent, not immediately but of the two of them
going through something that they want. But the comedy of
them was I think the impetus for for that and
seeing wanting to see Dwight in a romance and see
(04:17):
her in a romance like that just seems like you
don't want to look exactly. Um, going back, do you
recall could you imagine that their wedding would end up
ending the show? I don't think I could have known that. No,
I mean I was hopeful for it, but um, but
(04:40):
I think what was cool about that show and felt brave.
I think there was a bravery about Greg that is like,
let's just go for it. Let's just go for it
and we'll see, right And and in general, people would
ask like, how much did you know about the end
of the season from where you started at the beginning,
And we would just carve out thirteen because something could
come up in that thirteen that was so unexpected and
delightful we'd want to follow that more. Or something could
(05:02):
not work for some reason. You don't know necessarily. I mean,
I think there was a lot of faith in Dwight
and Angela, but we always left ourselves open to how
something could pop or not pop or you know. But yeah,
I don't know that I would have thought ending the
whole series like I would have thought it was like,
you know, it's still I don't even think I would
have known we were going that many years. I mean,
(05:24):
it's just like I was so excited. I certainly hoped so,
But um, why do you think the fans responded so
much to Jim and Pam God? I think they're so
gifted that I feel like it was the right storyline
with the right two actors. There was like a chemistry
(05:44):
and a dynamic between the two of them. One of
my favorite things I got to do with them was
the Jinx episode where they didn't speak. I couldn't believe
the moments I was getting where you know, there's a
moment where Pam, you know, says, Oh, what are you
going to tell me something? Oh, you can't tell me something?
And he wanted to say that he liked her, right,
but he's now has to be silent. But she says,
(06:05):
what is there something you want to tell me that
you can't And he looks just like his stomach drops
and he turns white and he looks down and then
you see her see that he did that, and know
what that means. They were so incredibly gifted as like
they could be silent film stars. I really feel like
the dynamic between the two of them, But I also
think it was Greg's thing. And I keep kind of
(06:27):
saying this kind of thing in different ways of like
the Beauty, the pop of Beauty and the Gray, like
having an episode that's not about them or is about
you know, you guys are Dwight or Michael, and then
having this little pop of Jim and Pam not overdoing
it when it felt like it was doing stuff when
it wasn't even doing stuff. Just seeing that Jim and
Pam were in the background of a scene where you're like,
they like each other, but they're not getting together. Was
(06:49):
this thing that I feel like fans were rooting force.
You could have go to this anybody in this ensemble
and give them a fantastic storyline and still feel the
yearning between the two of the you know what I mean,
it's like and it will because it wasn't accelerated so quickly.
The best things were things we had to reach for,
(07:10):
and the fact that they weren't front and center. The
fact that the pressure wasn't on them made us want
to I don't know, just made us enjoy it. Yeah.
So when Holly is brought in, do you remember any
conversation about where Michael ends his journey on the show
being with her or was this just a limited thing.
(07:32):
I can't quite remember what we've said about like ending
the show. I just remember all the discussions about Jan
and whether or not to evolve him and Holly. The
decision of Holly came out of the decision to evolve
Michael's character passed Jan and to a point where he
was finding a peer. So we wanted somebody who was
a peer relationship and it didn't necessarily I mean in
(07:55):
my mind and have to be that it would be
her and her forever, but that she would be the
first person that you know, was really appear for him
and that he evolved. Michael would have picked. So if
we wrote the character right and if it worked out,
if she left him or if he left her, that
he would be devastated, that it would be a real
(08:16):
peer relationship, and then the consequences of a real pure relationship,
the fact that she was so fantastic, and then we
got to keep her around and keep using her as
in our biggest dreams she would be she would be
Michael's person. I remember when we wrote the first episode
that she was in Paul and I and Paul had
the first half and I had the second half, and
Paul all that Yoda stuff was just pure Paul, just genius.
(08:37):
I read it and I was like, holy sh it,
this is fantastic because she's Michael, but she's different enough,
And it was sort of like, how do we get
somebody that is a peer for him, that adores him. Um,
that is goofy but also like him. You just want
you love her, you feel her. You She's so sweet
(08:58):
and you just you know, excited for her and um
so the dynamic between the two of them I thought
was phenomenal. So so as soon as we saw that,
it was an instant yes, this is this is going
to work because you can think about it and you
can write that he's going to have somebody that's kind
of a little bit more involved. But I think as
soon as we saw that, we just fell in love
(09:18):
with them, right things in your head at first and
you're like, is this going to work? Like what if
we evolved him past jan and we write this character
of Holly you know, this is before noise, any and everything,
and then what if it's just boring and it's not
funny and it doesn't work. So there was stakes on
this of like, oh, like how do we do this?
And um, thank god Paul wrote those Yoda scenes, like
(09:42):
you know, yeah, thank god. Um. Rain and I got
into a conversation where I, well, what I said to
him was that I consider Twight and Michael to be
one of the greatest comedy duos of all times. Where
(10:04):
do you feel like they fit in in terms of
sort of the legacy of comedy duos? So I agree completely.
I think they were just one of the best. They're
up there with the greatest, I think their abilities individually
and then bouncing off of each other. They were so
specific in Dwight's wanting to be more than he is
(10:25):
in Michael's eye. I mean, I'm thinking of drug testing.
When Michael asked for Dwight's herein it's like the ultimate
ask is like going against his ethics and responsibilities as
a sheriff. But then this is Michael asking him, and
then they're both just so crazy gifted. I mean, there
were times where I just had to leave the room,
like I couldn't. I was gonna laugh and I was
going to ruin a take, so I had to I
(10:46):
had to get out of there. Like you were maybe
the laughiest writer. I was so bad. It was so bad. Yeah,
you funny? How am I like you put any human
being in a situation with you guys in that area
and a bullpen in What are you supposed to do? Like?
How do you not laugh? Like I was biting my
cheek at times, Like I would go home and like
(11:07):
I'd have a little like welts and stuff I had.
I had a trick? Was your trick? I had a trick?
I had I had a trick at times. I mean,
it was just mostly And it's funny because where I
really remember you laughing, as in the Talking Heads again,
where you're well in that same room, in the conference room.
That was where it was the most difficult, because somehow
(11:28):
you felt trapped. You couldn't turn around, you couldn't turn
to the side, like you couldn't find a pole to
hide behind, like there was sort of nothing to be done.
So I said, your index finger and my thumb. I
would take that and I would bury my fingernail into
the side of my thumb. And it was just trying
(11:49):
to just think about that small amount of pain that
was there and not Steve being prison Mike or whatever.
It was insane not doing that. There was one moment
with Rain where Greg and I were there. I don't
remember who was writing and directing. I think he was
directing and I was the writer, and we were sitting
there across from Greg and Matt Soon is there and
(12:09):
Dwight is talking and he's doing a talking head. I
cannot remember the topic. But Greg leaps, he leaps. He
can't be in the room, so he leaves and he's
like outside of the stage even and then I move
and sit in his chair so he can have eyeline,
and then I leave. I can't do it. I leave,
And so basically Rain is sitting there and being like,
is that okay? Did anyone see that? Is it? Okay?
(12:30):
Can move on, like nobody's there. But it happened with you.
I remember happening with you several times. And what happened
with you is that just you could see your brain work,
You can see yourself thinking, and there were just moments
where I knew what was coming up or I knew
what was going to happen, and it's just just delightful
journey of you getting to what you were going to say.
(12:51):
And I was like, I'm not gonna I'm gonna lose
my ship, and so I would bite my cheek, but
half the time it was just lose it. It was
like an exposure of psychology for my laughing. Yes, Gregg
talked about the cast too, so not just Michael and Dwight,
but you know the Accountant's Corner, but Dwight and Jim
as well, and it really everybody fit together like a puzzle. Yeah, God,
(13:15):
it was such a gift. I mean to come in.
I came in after the casting process obviously, and I
was just so impressed with all of you guys. It
was phenomenal, just like so strong, such good comic actors,
but also so specific in terms of your characters. It
felt like you guys were living in those characters you were.
You were just so true to them so that you
could be delighted when you know, Angela would come over
(13:38):
and ask you to do something. It was just you
were amused already because you just knew that. Like, you
guys were so dialed in and you were just going
to knock it out of the park. What do you
think makes Michael a great leading man? I think that
he cares so much about the people that he were
(14:00):
works with. It's his family. He doesn't have a family
outside of that, so it's very important that things go
well and he's rooting for them. But at the same time,
he is so uh different in the way it approaches everything.
I think the contrast between caring so much and liking
the people that he works with and loving them and
(14:21):
wanting them to do well, and yet not having the
ability that he should have as a manager at all,
like that tension is fascinating to me. I think you
asked about Michael, but I think Steve is such a genius.
You know, we could get away with more because he
was so gifted. We could push because he could he
(14:42):
could have that undercurrent of humanity and where it's coming from,
underneath the broadest thing. I mean, certainly there were lines,
but we could push that so far and still have
it read true. And I remember, you know, seeing first
season of the Office, seeing four year old Virgin, and
then I was just like, Oh, there's nothing this man
(15:04):
can't do. I mean, he would do takes completely differently,
give you all these different sides of things and sides
of him. I just felt for him. I felt for
him enormously because he could do the sillier joke ere thing,
but there always was the truth and the reality that
was grounding it. I always felt where he was coming from.
I always felt like he wanted to connect or didn't
(15:26):
want to disappoint or you know, like, I don't know.
He's just extraordinary. So it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous because you
can have you laugh and then in a in another
moment you can just cry, and he can just turn there.
There was a moment and I don't remember I think
I was. I wrote it and I wasn't directing, but
(15:47):
I was on set and he was doing a scene
with Holly and they were having this kind of intimate
scene and then they started laughing about something and I
started laughing and he Steve turned to me. I think
this is the ploper real. Actually hey, he turned to me,
and I was like, oh my god, I'm sorry. He's like,
we're acting here, Like he just was laughing but he
(16:08):
was laughing. They were laughing so real, which is of
course what acting is. But like I was like, oh,
they broke because it's just just just feels too real.
And so there were just moments with him where I like,
I couldn't I just couldn't tell, you know, because it
was just so true. Yeah. I haven't asked anybody this,
but it just occurring to me. Do you do you
think that there was because of Steve's ability to improvise?
(16:34):
Did you feel like the words that the writers were
writing were less precious on this show than anywhere else
or did that game not change? I personally, I feel
like they weren't so precious. I think, especially with him.
Everybody was so talented on the show, but Steve had
(16:56):
an ability to understand so much the subtext of all
the text that I felt like changing things up or
adding something always. I mean, I think of Oscar kissing
Oscar and Gay witch Hunt. It was like the best moment,
one of the best moments of the whole show. And
it's just you knew it was on story, it was
on theme, and it was funnier than what was scripted.
(17:17):
So I felt like he had great respect for the text,
but he had this ridiculous ability to understand everything in
such depth that if he was going to change things up,
it was always going to honor the intention. Yeah, I've
been asking people who was the greater loss, Michael or Steve. Oh, Steve.
(17:48):
I mean I wasn't there, but I just feel like
everybody saw what genius he was with the Michael Scott character,
but getting to see him outside of that, and how,
you know, good he was with everybody else. I mean,
we'd have like, I remember, we had an actor come
in who was very young and very new, and Steve
just working with his performance and dialing in different directions
(18:10):
so that he could help this person get up to
that level, you know, And there were so many kind
hearted things he did that, like you know, Michael Scott
was brilliant, but to know that that's who he's playing
with any steps out of that role and just as
a human was just such a good man. I have
(18:32):
to say, Steve, did you ever think of Greg as
(18:53):
a teacher? M hm. I feel like I learned an
enormous amount from Greig. I'm trying to think of the
thing my my greatest takeaways from being Greg. I had
been writing for a while by the time I was
working with Greg, and so I think that even though
(19:13):
there were writing things to learn, I think I learned
a lot of things about leadership that I really was
kind of focused on or thinking about. He was phenomenally
good at story and so many things. So I learned
from just being around him about how he approaches and
how he attacks things. But I'm just going to try
to think about the things now. I'm my brain. I'm
sort of thinking about it live. I have a little
(19:34):
bit of a d D D. If you haven't noticed that.
One thing is he had this idea about blue skying,
where he would say, let's think about the ideas in
this area, and we would think about it, and we
would just think about throw out ideas, throw out ideas.
Even when we had great or even excellent ideas, He's like,
keep going. So the amount of times we had something
(19:56):
that was great and he would come in and challenge
and test and want to take it and shaken and
turn it upside down. Every time we did that, we
came up with something better. It wasn't lateral, it wasn't worse.
It wasn't that we should have stayed with that first thing.
It was better. So the fact that he hired people
that were so animated and passionate, and he wasn't scared
(20:16):
of somebody who would constantly challenge him, you know, like
he wanted to have people who would fight him on
stuff in the room. He wanted wherever the idea came
from that was best. He just wanted that idea in there.
It did not have to be his idea. And I've
worked with show runners who are brilliant, but it had
to be their stamp had to be on something. But
to his credit, he uh got a group of people
(20:39):
that all thought differently and that we're going to fight
in the room about things that mattered to them. They
all gave a ship and they all thought and I've
been fortunate enough to work with a bunch of different people,
and I sort of divided everybody into all the show
runners I've worked with into I Basically I told Greg this.
I said, they're all control freaks because you have to
be some level of, you know, really caring and being
(21:00):
very meticulous about what you put out into the world.
But I think there are control freaks with egos and
control freaks without egos, And the difference between creating a
show with that kind of vibe where you have somebody
very smart, filtering everything and deciding it, but wants to
hear everything and wants to be challenged, and if he
doesn't agree with you, I'm going to come back and
(21:22):
say it three more times, you know what I mean?
Like there's I with the no sound of the proposal.
I I just was beating that drum for weeks because
it meant that much to me. But um, steaks and
escalation and surprise and all those things he's such a
master at. And some of those um either I relearned
or learned a Greg way of doing things that was phenomenal.
(21:43):
But I kept thinking about leadership when I was working
with him. So interesting, so other than blue skying, if
there's anything else specifically about the work in the writer's room,
or because was like a beautiful mind in there. I
don't know if anyone's told you that. Note cards everywhere,
thousands and thousands of note cards, fragments, piece is of cards,
pieces of stories, character, um things. You'd look at a
(22:04):
card and you were like, I have no idea what
this card means, Like you have to try to remember, um,
candy bags, you know, like I didn't know candy bags
before the office, which was we would have, you know,
a thirty five forty page scripts sometimes and eventually it
would be twenty minutes or twenty one minutes. And then
additionally we would have sometimes a sixty or eighty page
joke bag. So like for every talking head of of yours,
(22:26):
we'd have ten additional talking heads if we had the
time and you know, we could get to them, we'd
have alternate jokes for scenes. Um, yeah, I think that
them trying to think of other Greg things that were specific,
I could tell a story if you want about Greg
and I trying to write a script together. Um, I
wonder if I should say that. I think you'd be
(22:48):
fine with this, But I had to write an episode
with Greg at one point, I mean, I'd love to
write an episode, but like we both usually wrote alone,
and then we were going to try and write together.
And my process at the beginning of writing is a
lot of fascinating and just like procrastinating and then panic
and then writing. Um So I remember we sat down
to write and both of us seemed like we were
(23:10):
just sort of like it's one of those writer things
where you just make sure the temperature is exactly right,
you have all the pencils exactly sharpened. Should we ordered lunch,
maybe sorder lunch, or should we you know, go for
a walk, like makes more sure. You know, you're just
kind of avoiding getting to it because it's hard. It's wonderful,
but it's hard. And um, I think at that moment,
he he was having some sort of a I don't
(23:30):
remember it was a back thing or shoulder thing, and
I was having an ear problem, and so like we
looked up I think on web MD, like what was
going on with my ear? And like I think we
he got me to put some like olive oil from
the kitchen in my ear because I was like, I
think that this will help. And we're sitting there and
we're on web m D and we're just not starting.
We're not starting. We're just diagnosing what's wrong with my
(23:52):
ear and what's wrong with this back, and we're spending
a lot of time doing this, and eventually we just like,
he's like, I'm gonna write Act one. You go right?
Actually like where we can't. We cannot sit together and
do this because it's like taking the individual traits of
this and and exponentially magnifying it. But we turned it
into a Michael and Dwight. Uh they're on web m
D and Dwight is like, point to your body where
(24:15):
it hurts, and he doesn't. It's like something's wrong with
your uterus or your ovaries. Anyway, Very often what was
happening in our lives became in office episode That was
me actually writing a script with the genius Greg, but
seeing that writers are all the same when they're we
can avoid for a little bit starting hard stuff. That's
(24:36):
so amazing. That sounds like so both of you too.
Um So when Greg left season five, you and Paul
are show runners. Yes, so what how did he go
about asking you? Oh my gosh, I can't um, I
kind of want to tell you another story, but it's
going to be circular again. It doesn't matter. Okay, I
(24:57):
want to tell you another story and then we'll go
back and then you can just slice place the And UM.
I told Greg this, and I think he he doesn't
remember this or he denies this. But early on Greg
asked Mike and Paul and I to sort of be um,
I'm terrible at military things lieutenants. Is that like a
person like underneath the case he's the captain, Like, okay,
so we were going to kind of be underneath him
(25:17):
and take over some responsibilities, you know. So he said
we were going to be meeting like once a week,
and we were just talking about certain things and like
maybe divide up like you know. Mike was going to
be responsible for some things and Paul and I and
then ultimately we report back to Greg. Greg would be
in charge, but everything he was just getting some help.
And I remember he gave a memo UM, and it
was kind of like, Okay, we're gonna meet every Monday
(25:38):
in UM in this room here, and it's going to
be from you know, nine o'clock to ten o'clock. And
I think there was like one rule and the rule
was something like say things if you can, and like
the quickest amount of time that you can say that.
There was something like that. It was very polite and
it was very it was like okay. It was basically
like kind of try to stay on track. And then
(25:58):
I'm like thinking about it, and I'm like, Mike is
very sustinct. He likes to talk and he's very sustinct
and he says everything and Paul doesn't talk that much.
And I was like, this memo is telling me not
to talk so much. Now, this is not Greg trying
to quiet you know, a writer, because Greg like always
but I talked a lot. I really was like, this
(26:20):
is like him saying, you know, try to try to
be careful and how you pick what you're saying, and
like he can get down to the things that are important.
So the takeaway needs to not be Greg was trying
to quiet me, but more that I talked a whole
hell of a lot. So it's like you wrote that
memo for me. There's no we knew what room to
be and we knew what time it was. This was
a memo to say stopped talking all the time. He's like,
(26:43):
I don't think I did that anyway. So so Paul
and I had some responsibilities, and we had been for
some things. Yeah, you and Mike and Paul had had
some responsibilities and fire responsibilities leading into this, so we
would start to run rooms. So I just think that, Um,
I don't remember actually him like the day that he
(27:03):
asked us, but I remember being very excited, you know,
like I was nervous. Of course, I wanted to do
a good job, and we felt an enormous amount of responsibility.
But I also felt like he wasn't like, you know,
get on a boat and leave. It wouldn't be able
to contact him, and he would, you know, help us
to navigate this and we'd be able to ask questions. Um,
do you remember anything about you know, you're running the
(27:25):
show now and NBC. I understand there was some pressure
about bringing in some A list star for the Super
Bowl episode. Do you remember anything about that. Yeah. I
always feel like you just don't want to be taken
out of the moment of the show. And I sort
of remember for the first time, I feel like NBC
(27:46):
was so good and they gave such good notes, and
I felt like they just really trusted Greg and they
trusted the writers and the actors certainly, but I do
feel like the Super Bowl put pressure on the powers
that be so that it was a little bit of
I remember hearing this, and it could be incorrect, but
this is how I remember hearing that. The goal was
(28:08):
to write an Office episode that all of the fans
who already fans of the Office would know and love
because it's their favorite show, and we're going to just
write a typical Office episode. However, at the same time,
an Office episode that's not like an Office episode, so
that we can get new fans in. Like so, I
was like, these two things contradict each other. There's no
(28:28):
way to do this, And I think that became one
of our hardest stories to break, because we came up
with other stories and ended up throwing out more stories
on the way to that final story than any other episode,
because we were trying to appease to our fans and
also maybe broaden it a little bit more to get
new fans who needed to have something some bells and
(28:51):
whistles of some other kind to then get them in
and then we'll still be the same Office. But so,
I think the idea to put the celebrities in a
movie was a better idea of how to handle that.
But I think I remember pushing back on the celebrity
thing because I never like when something bigger comes into
our world. Are you proud of your your year show running?
(29:15):
I am? I am. I am proud of it. I
feel like we did a good job. I don't know
if I could be the one to judge it, but
but I'm particularly proud in the Michael Scott Paper Company
because it was kind of towards the end of the
year and we were tired, you know, and it was
a fun thing to do. And it was a little
bit of a risk and a huge risk because we had,
(29:37):
you know, three of our characters going off. But you know,
it was hard but very very rewarding, and I feel like, yeah,
it was one of my favorite years. So you go
from being a writer to being a lieutenant to being
a co showrunner and then you started directing. How was
that for you to be on set and directing Crime
(29:57):
Made was the first episode? Crime was the first one?
And this is um, I don't know if you know this,
but on Beach Games, which was just a crazy episode,
like a forty two page script, it was an now
or maybe longer actually two quick tell you two quick things.
One was that there was just so much to do
and we didn't have the time. I think it was
one of Ed Helms's first episodes. Two I can't remember
(30:19):
when he joined the cast, not overly that long after
he joined Scranton. I remember we were going to put
him in a sumo suit and we were going to
pull him out in the middle of the lake, and
I remember I had to go. There was so much
chaos that he was like in hair and makeup or something.
I don't remember what it was. But he missed the
safety meaning and he like he mad, you know, maybe
he was briefed. I'll say, you know he was briefed
(30:41):
on it, but I remember very specifically hearing that there
were water snakes and where we're not to tell him.
But I don't think I did. Was I think they're
near the edges. I didn't want that to be in
his head. I didn't want to be scared on top
of it. So I'm sorry if I know that somebody
didn't supposedly briefed him, but I did hear them say
the water stakes part. I'm like, I don't know what
(31:02):
to do here, because if I would not want to
know that, but I think but that was a moment
from Beach Games. But it was I think it was
because of the chaos that there was a lot happening
at once, and so I ended up at one point
Kent called and we we had to stop. We had
to stop. It was like we went over and then
(31:24):
we went over again, and we went over again, and
we have like forty five seconds to get this scene right.
And he calls me and he's like, he's like upset.
I understand it's he's got to get the scene. And
I make this decision of like I can either explain
to you why I don't have time to talk to
you right now and how if you let me have
this forty five seconds we will get everything and we
will stop, or I can go do it. So I
(31:45):
just like quietly he's like talking kind of loudly. I
just put the phone on a chair and to like,
let's go and then we get it. And we got it.
So I was like it was one of those moments
where I was like, we won't get it if, you know,
keep having discussion about how you want to get it.
And it wasn't as following was upset and it was
the last minute. But during that in the very last
(32:06):
day of shooting, there was just so much and we
had a lot of things kind of spill over because
it's just a huge episode. There was one moment where
Harold Ramos said to me, you go do the people,
I'll do the tech stuff for this scene. Like we
divided up as a showrunner or whatever. I was able
to kind of communicate with you anyway, but normally on
a set as the director that speaks, you know, so
he was like, go kind of communicate what you want
(32:27):
and what's in the scene, and I'll kind of work
on the camera stuff. So I guess he had mentioned
and this is more about Harold Ramus just being incredibly
generous than about my abilities. I can swear to you
that at the time, but he had mentioned to Greg
that maybe I should be directing. So Greg had asked
me if I wanted to do it, and I was like, oh,
a thousand percent, yes. I was super nervous when I
(32:49):
first started directing. Um. I remember Ed or somebody else
I think it was Ed had said, you know, fake
it till you make it, like it's an advice in
you know, And I was like, I can't fake it.
I'm just gonna look like I don't know what I'm doing.
So I just researched and studied and tried to knew
that you guys were phenomenal and nobody was gonna make
me look bad because if I just screwed something up,
(33:11):
you guys would elevate it. No one would notice. Well,
I don't know about that. Somebody would have maybe not us,
but yet. Okay, So then after season five, you and
(33:40):
Paul are both in charge and you decide to to
take a step back. Why did you decide to do that?
So this is such a hard thing to explain because
it was my favorite job ever. I felt so lucky,
I said, felt so blessed to be on that staff.
It was the show that most mashed my sensibilities, Like
I felt like I won the lottery. I really really did.
I think it happened, and I don't know if it
(34:01):
was because we were doing so many episodes a year,
but I just started to get a little bit, like
it's a weird thing to say because the show was,
you know, phenomenal, but I started to get a little
bit bored in that, Like I wasn't able to think
in the same way and come up with the same
kind of stories and characters and moments. And it got harder,
and I think part of me too, there was something
(34:22):
pushing me more and more and more to write original material,
to be challenged, to throw myself off the deep end
and have to create a world of my own. You know.
I really just also wanted to I wanted to be
able to bring my a game, and I felt like,
I think I wanted a little bit of a new challenge.
But it was an incredibly difficult position, and um, I
(34:45):
wonder if I can tell the story, I'm gonna tell it,
and then I can just always ask him if it's
okay to say about whatever. I decided I was going
to leave, and it was incredibly difficult. Um, And I
told Jean, I said, you know, I'm gonna end up
telling Greig that I'm going to leave, and like it was,
you know, difficult for me, you know whatever, But I
just said, don't say anything. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna
(35:06):
do it, you know, But I just want to let
you know. I don't know why. I just felt an
affinity to those guys. And Jeane laughed and he taught
me a lesson I keep to this day. He laughed
and he said, I think it's funny that you think
I'm thinking of anything other than myself at any given moment. Like,
I'm not gonna tell him. And I went up to
tell Greg, and this was a Friday, and I was like,
(35:27):
I'm just gonna get it over with and I go
to the I'll go to his office and I start crying,
like on the way to his office, and I was like,
not today. Ladies don't cry at work, which I have
cred at work. But I was like, so I just
turned around and I couldn't tell him. And then I
told him then on Monday, but I was just in
it was that painful. I just felt like I wanted
a new challenge. I loved everybody so much though, that
(35:48):
it was such a difficult decision, and I just felt like, um, yeah, yeah,
I remember you telling me on set. I don't know why,
but I just remember thinking, oh, well, that's a real loss.
Thank you for saying that. I it was really really
(36:09):
hard for me. I loved you guys, I mean I
just loved you, and it was awkward for me too,
because I felt like it was a hard thing to
explain because I didn't know how to say it, because
I didn't think the two things matched up. This was
the best job I ever had. It was the most
aligned with what I love to do. I love the
cast more than any other cast I've been with. I
(36:29):
love the writers, and so I was frustrating myself for
a while, and I spent some months trying to decide
it because I was like, what's wrong with my brain
that I can't say? I mean literally, I just like,
I just start being frustrated in myself of like, you know,
what the hell? But I think it was just wanting
at that point, and I had done other shows I
(36:50):
started at I started on Home Improvement, I came up
with whatever Wilson said, you know, like a lot of
the Wilson stuff in his backyard. So I've been writing
for a long time, and I think I wasn't necessarily
brave enough to go out and try to write things
of my own. And I think the Office. In fact,
just remembering this right now, when I was telling Greg this,
(37:11):
I felt like I was brave enough and confident enough
to go off and do my own things because of
my experience on the Office. And He's like, I did
this to you. I created this, I created you wanted
to leave. I was like, so, yeah, it was a difficult.
It was really difficult for me. Um, why do you think, well,
(37:35):
the show is bigger now in pop culture than it
ever was when it was airing on NBC on Thursday nights.
Why do you think people are connecting to it like
they haven't or not that they haven't, But why has
it become such a phenomenon? Well, um, maybe the part
A is to just compliment it. But I'm just I
(37:58):
just think Greg and you guys, and you know, everybody
created such a kind of almost timeless comedy show where
it's like you very much relate to the people, and
there's such heart and it was well written. The actors,
everybody brought such comedy and some pathos and everything to it.
So I think that it's one of those like lightning
(38:19):
in a bottle things where everything coalesced at the right
all together to create this thing. And then I think
people don't sit down to watch TV at a certain
time on a certain night. It's like people want to
have it when they want to have it. They want
to like I think I read Billie Eilish has watched
every episode eleven times, and she said that she has
it on the in the background sometimes when she's just
(38:41):
in her tour bus likes other things to do, Like
I feel like there's something kind of comforting about at
the relationships that you relate to and that there's it's
so real, but you want to be able to put
it on when you want to put it on, and
especially younger people, so that they just can, you know,
watch it whenever they want to digest it and watch it.
And so I also think that there's something happening right
(39:01):
now where everybody is so fragment and everybody is so divided.
There's a comfort that comes, which is weird because I
think it is subversive and it is crazy, but there's
a comfort that it's like I know these people, They're
like me, I know these people. I feel safe here
instead of like, you know, whatevers go else is going
on around you. You can kind of retreat into that
in a weird way. I felt that way when the Mr.
(39:22):
Rogers movie. I was like, oh God, just come hug
me and Mr Rodgers again and again. And there's like
a weird thing which is subversive and it you know,
but I do think that you feel like you know them,
you feel like they're family, and then it makes you
feel you can kind of disappear with them and stay
with them for a while. It's not a one off
(39:43):
and you care about all you guys who cared about
the characters. Right. What are you most thankful for in
your experience on the show? Getting to be a part
of it? I mean really just getting to be there,
um I I would say overall, just being a part
of it, getting to be in that writer's room and
(40:03):
getting to work with you guys, getting to work with
the actors. Um. It made me realize what is possible
and what at the best something could be. Yeah, I
just feel so. I feel so lucky and grateful. On
on a on a smaller note, I think you know,
I was talking about Greg and him being brave. I
also think that he hired people that he believed in,
(40:27):
but he also trusted them, and so there were some moments.
There was a moment that really helped me, and this
is actually what I was referencing when I was leaving
the show. Um, there was a moment with grief counseling
actually where Greg got it and Steve got it and
I got it, but it was a hard episode to
put flags on and say this is what's happening to
(40:48):
the character because it was so internal, and I think
we had some notes of like make sure the audience
understands what's happening. And knew I knew, Steve did, I
knew Greg didn't. I know I did it. But are
people going to be a little confused with this? Are
they not? So? Greg went through my episode and was
maybe trying to put little sign posts that if we
(41:08):
needed them, great, they're there. If not, we'll pull him
out in editing, and he was trying to sort of
navigate this and I had written it in a way
that it was difficult to do that. So after about
six or eight hours for Better for Wars, I don't
think it was all like beautifully written in a way
that was intractable, but like I think that it was
everything depended on the last thing. He was one of
(41:30):
those where it was like he was literally going through
all the stages of grief, and Greg at one point
came to me and said, I want you to go
into your office. I want you to think about anything
that we did to try to put the signposts in
or any jokes that you know, we came up with
that we should add or not add or whatever whatever,
(41:50):
And I want you to figure out what do you
want it to be? What do you not wanted to
be one of those things? Do you want? And then
we're going to shoot whatever you come out of your
office with. And that moment was like, Okay, there was
such faith and such trust, and that gave me such
a huge lift, I mean in my career, in my
own confidence level, and that actually I referenced when I
(42:13):
was leaving. He's like, wait a minute, I caused this,
But I think that personally, professionally writer wise, that meant
a lot to me because I had been on staffs
of shows where someone didn't get my sensibility, get my
sense of humor, or you spend a lot of time
trying to get something in someone else's voice that you
(42:34):
don't believe in as much. So I felt very grateful.
But the quick answer is I felt very grateful to
be at the party. Well, you've said a number of
times that their connection to us, but the characters are
creation by the actors in conjunction with the writers, and
your contribution to the show and your your leadership throughout
(42:57):
multiple seasons, but you leading it in one is some
huge Well thank you. I just thank you. I felt
so lucky to be there. Thank you, thank you so
much for coming in. Oh I hope so I took
you longer then I should have. I didn't even talk
(43:18):
about that. Can I tell you one quick thing? Oh yes,
I literally got talked to you once about it, not
not in a like, but like sure and Greg were like,
could you be a tiny bit more selective in the
amount of times you say that's what she said? But
that just made me in the room as a as
a person because constantly I so Greg ended up thinking
that there were two parts of my brain, one that
(43:40):
was thinking of comedy and story and the other one
was just trolling for that's what she said set up.
So what they did is they just made me more
clever about it. Like I would have scenarios where like
five people involved with it and it would be like
three levels of dialogue deep, and then I'd be like,
that's what she said. So it just made my brain
work harder. But I spent a lot of time I'm
up in the writers room saying that's what she said,
(44:02):
because I would constantly hear that set up? Who came
up with it? BJ? Brought it into the show? Um,
I think it was something that pre existed and then
he brought up brought it into the show. But it
was definitely b J. But I have been credited for
it only because I said so many times that people
are like, what the fuck? Yeah, no, b J brought
(44:23):
it up, but I took it in right. Um, Okay,
thank you? What did I tell you? Oh? Jen is
(44:49):
the absolute best. Thanks for joining me, Jen, I am
so glad that the world got to hear well from
the woman behind the words. And to everyone else, thank
you for listening. And guess what ding ding ding ding ding?
Special announcement Why don't you come back tomorrow? Yeah, because
(45:10):
I am launching the rest of my conversation with our
spectacular writer Mike Sure or you might know him as
Dwight's weirdo cousin mows. See you tomorrow, everyone. The Office.
(45:32):
Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner,
alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is
Tessa Kramer. Our producers are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia.
My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our
theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend
Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandski.
(46:00):
Mmmmmmm
Host
Brian Baumgartner
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