June 20, 2023 • 65 mins
One of Brian’s favorite people (and everyone’s favorite HR rep) Paul Lieberstein is on the show today. He talks about his early, terrible spec scripts, his excellent new show Lucky Hank, and the real reasons behind the writer’s strike.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I had some really dreadful scripts at Well, what was
your worst? I think I had wrote a Murphy Brown
where a terrorist came in. It's just so this so misguided.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
By the way. I love that you said I think
I wrote a Murphy Brown. Yeah, I know, I wrote No,
damn well, you wrote a Murphy Brown.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
No. The I think was that this might be my worst. Oh, okay,
because there's there's a lot of tuoth. Hi. My name
is Paul Lieberstein and I am Brian bob Gardner's mother.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Hi everybody, it's me Brian Bambgartner here, and you are
listening to another episode of Off the Beat today. You
just heard it. My mother is on the podcast. That's right,
our old friend, Paul Leeberstein, formerly known as Toby Flanderson. Well,
(01:08):
Paul didn't maybe he didn't give birth to me, but
in a way he was like a mother to me.
As the showrunner of the Office for several seasons, he
kept the wheels of the show turning. He's the one
that we went to with our problems, and he kept
our show safe, happy and well fed, just like a
(01:30):
mama bear. Today, I wanted to talk to Paul about
his life outside of the Office. He's not only a
loving mother, but he's a writer, actor, director, showrunner, producer,
not to mention, a trained economist and vibraphonist, as I
learned today in truth, Paul has helped redefine the genre
(01:53):
of the half hour sitcom with shows like Greg The Bunny,
The Drew Carey Show, The Bernie Max Show, Oh, King
of the Hill, not to mention, The Office, Newsroom, Ghosted,
and Space Force. Everything he touches turns to gold. Maybe
not gold, but it's innovative, it's smart, it's boundary pushing.
(02:14):
This is a person who really moves the needle of
television with everything he does. And right now he has
a brand new show on AMC, Lucky Hank with our
old friend Bob Odenkirk. It is every bit as excellent
and groundbreaking as well everything that Paul does. I highly
recommend it. But before that, please welcome my dear friend,
(02:39):
the soft spoken yet well mostly lovable Paul Lieberstein. Bubble
and Squeak.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I love it, Bubble and Squeakna.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Bubble and Squeaker cook it every month.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Left from the n.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Paul labors Sneardner. How's it going?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Oh, that's going great. That's going here good, it's going
it's going good. Yeah, I had jumped into great about
really thinking that through.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Well, listen, I just saw you. Now I'm seeing you again.
This isn't this is incredible?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
This good stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, this is like twice in a month we.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Had gaps without seeing each other. We Yeah, there have
been some significant guess it's been some big gaps lasting
a few years.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I know. Now have you been I'm going to ask
you some more about this later, but have you been
out with a picket sign? We are currently now on
day thirty two of the Writer's strike, the w GA strike.
Have you been carrying a sign?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
I've carried a sign? Well, you know what. I walked
the pick a line. I don't care the sign.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You don't care the sign to heavy, I don't.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
No one ever gave me a sign. I haven't asked
for one. It seems like it seems like everyone knows
what we're up to. But if if I if I
need to carry.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
A sign, OK, you'll carry the sign.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I never said no, we're not doing that.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
No, I know exactly. You don't check it. You don't
go to the table and check in, and you just
kind of.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
A card at the table, you do, Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
They just seem fine with me now wearing the shirt, and.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, your story is so fascinating to me. I mean,
largely because of your family. So I want to I
want to rewind back in time. We're on the mean
streets of Connecticut.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, in the.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Late seventies, early eighties? What was what was what was
little Paul like? Back then? What did what did? What
did Paul like to do?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
I was really into music music. Yeah, played in the orchestra,
played percussion in orchestras. For a while, I thought I
was going to root a professional drummer.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
That's right. I forgot you were the drummer. I forgot.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
You gave me tips, that's right.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So you my I wanted to be a professional baseball player.
You wanted to be a professional drummer.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Now I have to I have to hit pause on
this for one second and ask you because I don't
even know what this is. Because you said percussion to start,
and I thought you were being vague. My excellent researching
team has found out that you played the vibra phone. Yeah,
what is a what's a vibra phone? I literally don't
know what a vibraphone.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Is, Well, you're about to that is a vibraphone.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh, it's like the.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Like a marimba. It's a big jazz instrument, largely metal
keys sustaining has a pedal there when you press it
down and it sustains. You play with a soft mallet.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Okay, and it's I love a soft mallet.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Well wait, so when you said percussion, but that was
drums as well. Yeah, you played things you could bang.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yes, exactly. Yeah, I'll believe it at that.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
So your first performing was.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Musically yeah, snare drum?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Were you good?
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I was good, as as I was a little better
than you are at that one is at that age,
you know, But I don't think I was, you know,
amazing yet kind of quick. Before before I had this experience,
we were on vacation in Florida and kind of like
(07:10):
ended up in some just dumb hotel lounge with a family.
There was this drummer and he had a couple of
electric drums there, and I thought it was really cool.
And that was before that was before the time of
electric drums. And I came up to him during a
break and yeah, asked him about it and we got
to talking and he's like, you want to be a drummer, God,
(07:31):
don't be a drummer. This is awful. This is horrible,
and no drummer had ever said that to me before.
And I'm like, whoa, this is going to be terrifle
allows the life.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
He was just a miserable person, though.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
He was, but I look, I was, you know fourteen
fifteen fourteen.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Did I ever tell you the story? I can't remember
if I've told this on the podcast or not. But
first off, for those of you who don't know, yes,
I am. I am not a drummer. I do not
play the drums. I never played the drums. They're the
greatest inside the writer's room writer joke in the history
of television was that, let's see if I get this right.
(08:21):
Because you're the musician, the writers on the Office wrote
Kevin to be the lead singer and drummer for a
police cover bande and the joke was cos, oh my god,
you just literally made everyone turn off. No, it was scranticity.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
It was the police.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Jesus Christ. Well, now you're not even gonna remember the joke.
So apparently the joke is I'll remind you of the
joke that you nerds made is that in the Police
the singing is off the beat name of this off
the beat of the drumming. So for me to be
(09:07):
the lead singer and drummer of a police cover band,
I would have to be an absolute musical savant genius
to be able to accomplish those two things. Do you
remember this now?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
It did great?
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Well, thank you, But that was the joke. That was
the joke that no one in the world knew. But
that was the joke Paul used to help me. He
would tutor me. I guess and I've said this many times.
Ed Helms and Craig Robinson amazing musicians, so we would
you know, by the time I started playing with them,
there would be like six songs and they'd be like, yeah, okay, cool,
(09:43):
we got it. I got guys, We've got to practice.
And I would call Paul in and be like, come
over to the warehouse with me. I need help here.
These guys won't help me. But one time I was
went to a charity event with Alice Cooper and I
picked up at the airport. Yes, and there was like
(10:04):
a benefit concert that night. I mean, these people from
Kiss and all of these amazing musicians are going to
play together for this charity thing. And the guy who
picks me up at the airport says, you know, and
then at the end the last song, we're going to
call everybody up on stage and we want you to
play the drums on schools out for Summer. And I
(10:28):
was like I started like full on, just flopsweating in
the back of the car. I was like, I can't, didn't, No,
I did. I told him no, I didn't care him,
I said to him, And He's like, no, well, of
course they think I'm being modest, right, I'm not that great.
(10:48):
I think it's what they're thinking. Meanwhile, it's Adrian Young
from No, like an amazing drummer, is like playing the
rest of the show and all this, and I'm like, no, no, really,
like I really cannot do this, Like I am not
going to have Alice Cooper and members of Kiss and
all these like looking back at me like, yeah, so
(11:13):
I did. I did. I didn't have my tutor you
there to help me learn, So no.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I Oh, you know what we did on the office once.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
The first time you tell it, do you remember now
you're remembering I.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Remember we had a drummer behind a curtain.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
That was the first, the first, that's the only time
I didn't really play Phyllis's wedding.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Phillis's wedding, Yep, and it was.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
A great Was it from the Goo Goo Dolls or
something like that. I may be saying that totally the
wrong band. It was. It was a very famous, very
famous drummer who was behind the curtain playing the drums,
and I and mine were dead. What do you you know?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
I don't know. We put something on him or I
think you were really touching though, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
No, I think I was touching. Yeah, but yeah, but
you couldn't hear.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, did you need a drummer behind a curtain?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Drummer behind the curtain, that's right, all right. I did
not think we were gonna there you go. There are
stories of drumming with Brian.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
And Paul who were acting.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Your sister. Yeah, Suzanne's Zan Liberstein now Daniels Daniels and
your brother Warren Liberstein now Liberstein, both writers. Suzanne obviously
married to Greg Daniels, a world renowned that's a horrible
(12:44):
pra a world famous, a very big television executive, an
amazing book, by the way, which I have also read.
So what was were you all who was interested in
television in your home? All of you or none of you?
Or how did this start that all three of you
(13:06):
ended up working in television?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, I mean we all had different interests. Yes, Suzanne
always liked she always liked producing. She was like leadership organizing.
She was as great as that. She kind of she
did some in high school. She in college she produced
the Hasty Pudding Show. And then she at a college
she went started working for Lauren Michaels. And then I
(13:30):
was I was always really interested in comedy and writing
from how old junior high?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Probably okay?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
And I was writing stuff since junior high.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
What were your influences?
Speaker 1 (13:44):
What? Ady Allen? Without fathers and Steve Martin? Okay, and
my brother and I would memorize the Steve Martin stuff,
say it back and forth to each other those albums. Yeah,
so I was going after comedy, but I didn't think
anybody did that. Oh, Warren was acting and here was
a theater, and so we are. But we all just
kind of had our own roots to, you know, follow
(14:08):
our own interests there. But then once Suzanne graduated and
started working for Lauren Michaelson. Then she started meeting some
of her friends and she started dating Greg, and so
I got to know Greg and some writers, and I'm like, oh,
people can do this. This is a this is a job,
right that you can get. It didn't seem possible before.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
You know, right, right.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I'd never met anyone. So I guess it was through
Suzanne that I thought I could get in and started
getting in and started writing. And it was a couple
of years before I got my first job after writing
many many specscriptions. And then Warren was graduated pursuing acting
in New York, and he has his head shots and right,
it's going for that and you know, as you know,
(14:52):
that's it's kind of a brutal and a brutal road
takes a tremendous amount not just talent but luck, right,
and so he wasn't getting nowhere, and I was like,
come on, come on, how to write? So Suzanne led.
The way you know we were talking is basically it
(15:14):
we were watching each other. So, right, it wasn't a
coincidence that we all ended up better.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Yes, but how lucky, I guess in a way for you,
I mean, you're you clearly could have found out this
information from somebody else, but that you know, her being
interested in producing yet landing with Lorne Michaels, who at
the time is the king of comedy on television. I mean,
you know, I mean starting SNL and and so for
(15:43):
you to have that experience of meeting Greg, meeting others,
seeing her work with them, that feels lucky. I mean, like, right,
I mean, if she goes to works with Jerry Bruckheimer,
it's a different it's a different deal.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Right, And I'm writing Lauren order space, No, I probably
still I mean I wrote what interested me? I wasn't
writing sketches, you know, I never tried to get on it.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
And now, right, do you think there's something about your
parents or your upbringing or was it your environment? What
do you think brought the three of you in some
ways to have this interest in the arts or was
it just you? Is it a coincidence?
Speaker 1 (16:25):
You know, I don't know my sister's job. You know,
it takes a lot of creativity and vision. But at
the heart of it, you know, she's been an executive,
a president.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
She's a business person.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yeah, yeah, what of mean things like warrenn I always
would have like loved, loved that acting thing work to
work out. I don't know. I mean he certainly gave
it up hard, so maybe he was ready, you know.
I think that happens like actors that just they don't
just like abandon a dream. It's just like it's okay, okay,
I did what I needed to do to try to
(16:57):
pursue that.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Right becomes very difficult. Yes, you studied economics.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, I studied economics, and I loved economics.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Why I loved it? What about it?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
It's so interesting. Economics, just like you know in macroeconomics,
certainly in an undergrad level, is about how to organize
the world. How do you organize society? I just think
it's it's fascinating. Everything you do is a series of
incentives to try to make the world, the country look
(17:32):
a certain way and act a certain way. I mean,
we are the US is more of it just a
result of its tax code than anything else.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Do you think that that experience helped you to create
worlds in television or at least manage people as showrunners?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
No? Absolutely not. In fact, nothing helped me manage people
as showrunners. I was not a good manager of people.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Of you were a good manager, you weren't a good
You don't think you were a good manager of people.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I think it was it was really hard for me.
I was not a natural manager of people. No.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Interesting, is that because you prefer to be by yourself?
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, we all prefer you to be by yourself. I
don't think you give yourself enough credit for that, because
I know because I think there are there are different
types of leaders, and there was I don't think any
question about your vision, and you had an ability to
(18:41):
articulate those things. I don't think it's about I don't
think being a people person as necessarily doesn't have to
make you a good leader. I'm not that you're not a.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
People no, no, no, look I like people.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
You do?
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah I do? Yeah? No, And it's kind of not
what I was talking about it. It's not like being
alone us. There's something about there's something about leadership where
I think kind of a very selfish attitude gets you
a long long way and to view everyone there, everyone
(19:19):
around you as someone who can help you achieve what
you want. I think that's good for a leader. And
I think my natural thought processes is like I'm here
for everybody. I'm trying. I'm going to try to support
everybody and help them do their job as the boss.
(19:39):
And and I think that's it's just a rough way
to go about your day when there's so many people
people that you're managing. Yeah. Yeah, it kind of worked
in the writer's room. It was good there, but once
it got something the whole show, it's just it's just
a lot of people, right.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
It's still hard I think for people to understand there's
one hundred and fifty people there just working on this
one show. And that doesn't include you know, some post
production people, you know, some PR and marketing and all
of that. The number is even higher than that that
you're ultimately either overseeing or have a huge say in.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah. Yeah, we're managing towards too. Yeah. I had no
idea beyond with the network and studio multiple times a
day like that's oh as far as the right and
now we're going. Now we're going to go through the
budget line by line, right, Wow, Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
That's why I asked you about economics.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I mean, there's nothing in economics that that helps you
go through a budget.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
I tried again, and you shot me down again. There's
this thing in improv, you know, it's called yes, and
you just literally don't.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I don't think there is no. I don't think there is.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Anything, because you know what that just did. It just
shut down the conversation.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Well any way you worry, you would let the conversation
go to a place where it's just like, Okay, we're
talking about spreadsheets.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
I don't know. I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I think it's the conversation is doing great.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Let's go back. Clarissa explains it all. That's your first
that's my first job, your first staff writing job. How'd
you get.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
It through an agent? My first agent at William Morris, Okay,
with a writing partner at the time, I started off
just that job. I had a writing partner, Okay, And
uh yeah, we went to I had come out here,
signed a lease, and days later got a job that
took me back to New York writing, and then we
(22:09):
filmed in Orlando.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
In Orlando, Yeah, Orlando.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Every time we got lost in Orlando, you'd end up
at Disneyland. Yeah it's a big place.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, So were you living there or were you writing
in New York? And then you would go down occasion
to go down.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Not occasionally. We went down for like four months. Oh okay,
it was great. It was great. You know, say twenty
four or twenty five something like that. Yeah, send me
to Orlando, what do I care? Put me up in
like a you know, a corporate apartment. Wow, it's bigger
than any apartment I have had.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
You were super psyched. Yeah, did you figure that you
were living out your dream?
Speaker 1 (22:56):
There was no question? And I was getting Uh. I
was sharing the salary with another with my writing part right,
and it was writer skilled minimum, and we were for sharing.
And I felt so loaded. I don't think I've ever
felt richer.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Really. Yeah, Now, did you have to share a bed?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And no? Right, no, no, did I think we shared
like a two bedroom corporate apartment?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Okay, all right, but you were living the life in
Orlando at twenty four.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Oh yeah, No, it's the best. It's the best I
can imagine. I can mention going bit and we would
we would write and then I remember taking could take
a break. Someone on the cast, like one of the
fifteen year olds would go like back to the future,
right or something, because we were on the universal connected
(23:50):
to the universal lot. Okay, it was just good, like yeah, No,
that's what a job should be.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
You have a number of jobs in these times, during
this period time after Clarissa explains it all weird science.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Weird science is serious the series.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah, and then eventually you get hired by a guy
named Greg Daniels for a little show called King of
the Hill. Now, had you worked with Greg at all?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
But he has like been aware of my specscripts. You know,
I'd always ask him, hey, what do you think of
this one is?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Oh? He would read them?
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, yeah, okay, so he knew I was getting better
as a writer, gaining experience. I had some really dreadful
scripts in the beginning.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Well, what was your worst?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I think I had wrote a Murphy Brown where a
terrorist came in. It's just so this so miskided.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
By the way. I love that you said I think
I wrote a Murphy Brown.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Oh yeah, I know, I wrote No.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Damn, well, you wrote a Murphy Brown.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
The I think was that this might be my worst.
Because there's there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Of did you do like back then? What were the
big like did you have a friends? Did you have
a Seinfeld?
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I had a friends that had Seinfeld? Cheers Cheers might
have been my very first script and I don't remember
the plot.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Let me guess they were in a bar.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Hm. I'm sure it was not good.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
What made you get better? Do you think your experience
working made you get better?
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I think my experience not working actually, like this was
not was not going anywhere. I wasn't getting work and
the scripts had to be better. And then when I
finally nailed it, I wrote like a Larry Sanders Sanders
and the like. It was crazy how everything changed, The
(25:54):
doors flew open, and I was hired on show after
show based on that script. Really, yeah, I always I like,
I give it a piece of advice to young writers
when they asked occasionally, which is, if someone gave me
a script and it was very good and I forwarded
it to an agent, it was a it's a favor
(26:15):
to that writer who gave me the script. But if
the script is excellent, it's a favorite of the agent,
And if I give it to a producer, it's a
favorite of the producer. You know, it just everything flips
got it and I saw one script just like really
with me through the first phase of working.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Now, King of the Hill, What was it like working
with Greg?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Oh? It was really like Greg it was for showrunning. Yeah,
so he was very different. He was kind of learning
how to be a showrunner too, but he had crazy
high standards. He's coming off the as you know, it's
coming off The Simpsons, and The Simpsons was headed atmosphere
of just like you don't go Home, and so he
brought that over to King of the Hill and we
(27:06):
were there just all the time writing and you know,
every script got thrown out so many times before it
became what it was. He worked so hard and making
something new. I mean, a show like that had that
concept had never existed before. Right. There was this question
that was just one of these network questions that they're
(27:27):
told to ask of every animation, and so why does
this have to be animated? That was just in the
dogma and the answer was that it doesn't, and I'm
doing it anyway. Yeah. So right, so he put together
a really fun staff, some people from The Simpsons and
some new people, some people from Texas, you know, to
(27:49):
try to get an authentic voice, and we really bonded
and we played. We just played and played. And when
you're there all the time, there's there's time because you
can't be it can't be productive all day, so it
opens up more time to kind of goof around, and
the bits became really extensive. We had an Office Olympics
(28:12):
that turned into the Offices Office Olympics, right. We had
there was a while there where we were a NERF
basketball game at lunch in the hallway. Started taking it
pretty seriously and the time that it would take, we
started eating really quickly so we could get to it
with fast, and we started sweating, so it'd bring a
change of clothes and then we'd bring like, let's just
(28:36):
straight out change the sneakers, but on basketball, and we
would get there and we would It became this thing
where we were like playing two hours in NERF basketball, right,
h just sweating story. But it was great. The writers
(28:56):
were super high quality and learned a lot, and it
was my style of writing, you know, just real people
talking about any kind of like big joke, you know,
much more more charactery. And it was a place where
I could really thrive.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Do you feel like there was anything different about writing
for animation which you hadn't done before, either or because
there was no reason this show had to be animated.
It was very much the same. It was.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
It was very much the same The only thing that
was freed up was it's as if I was writing
a live action show with a tremendous budget, because I
could have, you know, thirty five locations right for a
you know, in twenty two minutes. You know, I can
cut someplace new for a one line scene. And that
(29:54):
that was great training too, I think. But you know,
you don't get to do that in a cit right,
you get your one day out, you know, right, you
have your sense and then you get one.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Day out, so there's greater constraints. Yeah, you know. I
used to joke occasionally by the end with you guys
about about Kevin Malone and trying to explain to you
writers that I was not a cartoon character. I'm sorry
(30:27):
and that, and that physically there were limitations to what I.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Could actually do that that.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Could do.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
No, you were not. We didn't give you that stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Oh listen of all of the stuff. Yeah, the one
that I still feel and and it was it is
such a small joke and it made me laugh. It
is such a small joke episode where there's great we
used Reese in the warehouse to load trucks, and we're
(31:05):
taking over from the warehouse and there's grease everywhere. Dwight
and Jim are sitting on the sofa in the warehouse
doing a talking head and I walk behind and then
there's grease and then I slip and it was like, no, no,
(31:25):
you just need to like it's grease, like you just
need to disappear, which, of course that means I'm laying
I'm falling flat on my back behind the sofa. That
one I still feel by the way that one I
still feel.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
And what year, what season was that?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I don't know, Paul, don't ask all these questions. This
was a spontaneous story. I didn't do research on that.
Do you it's a little bit of a loaded question.
Do you have feelings about other animated shows that are
potentially not positive? Yeah? Do you have feelings about other
(32:05):
animated shows that you feel like the writing gets sloppy,
I as opposed to the care that you all had
on King of the Hill.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Well, it's not just animated. I feel most shows, you know,
I feel most shows slip and many shows never even
get there. I mean, you know, And part of it
is style and preference, the big multicams that where they
have this big setup and joke and the setup could
be literally labored, and it kind of doesn't matter if
it barely makes sense. There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
But I don't like, you don't want to write it.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I don't want to write it, and I don't want
to watch it. But but so what, It doesn't mean that,
like millions of people are wrong for enjoying it, right,
so we understandly, Like, yeah, I can't watch most television
or comedy. I can't watch most comedy because I just
(32:56):
it just makes me too angry that they're making decisions right. No,
And I hear a setup that's a tiny bit labored
and isn't honest, it makes me angry, you know, And
I can't enjoy the joke that comes after, and it
really takes me out of it.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
It's so interesting. You and I are very very st.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
And sometimes I hear the whole conversation that went into
a joke. Yeah, I hear that, and I hear the
like the twenty minutes that created it.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I do the same thing with actors, really, I do
the same I do the same thing. Yeah, it's when
there's a choice that is made that makes no sense
in terms of character, but is done for the writers. Oh,
it makes me so angry. Yeah, it makes me so angry.
(33:45):
I mean that and bad performances, let's be clear. Yeah,
but but it again.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
It's just like, what do you want to call a
bad performance if I just took my daughter to see Hairspray? Okay,
So in that there's a kind of performance that everybody's doing.
Obviously they were all directed to do it, and maybe
it's baked into the into the show itself, right that
I do not that's tough to call that acting, even
(34:11):
for me, you know, because you're not even pretending. But hey,
there was a thousand people like loving it?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
So right? Did your daughter love it?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
She liked it. It's not her favorite musical, okay, I
mean she didn't know that. Going favorite musical probably Hamilton.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Okay, that's a great choice.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
That's a great choice.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
That's a great choice. Makes dad proud. So after King
of the Hill, you have this stretch I referred to
before Drew Carey Show, the Bernie mac Show. What were
what was it about those shows that you bunny? What
was it about those shows that worked well for you
(34:54):
or that you responded to or why were they good
shows for you?
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah? So the first one Drew carry it ended up
being like just an awful mistake.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Okay, yeah, Like I.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Kind of enjoyed watching it, and I was like, oh,
they're really doing non sensical kind of you know, some
of the leaps they make logically or just kind of
like breaking the rules a little bit. And I was like, huh,
this is a kind of a real forward thinking show.
And then when I got there, it was like it
was all by accident. They weren't doing that on purpose.
(35:30):
Oh really, yeah, I think so. They just it was
how they worked, and they did everything together. There was
no solo.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Work for writers.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
In fact, I was completely confused the first time I
was sent off for script because in the room fifteen
of us whatever went line by line through an outline
creating the dialogue, and the whole thing was just written
in a different form, not in script form. And then
at a certain point they gave it to me and
said you have a week. I was like a week
(36:01):
to do what? And there's in fact, there were like
three lines maybe there where they got stuck on a
joke and they just said writer's choice, and I think
there was like a joke for them to write that,
And I was like, am I just supposed to reform
at this and fill in three jokes? Am I rewriting
something I don't I still don't know what I was
(36:21):
supposed to do and I can't remember what I did.
It was very afusing to me. But the part where
the part where you know, I just personally enjoy and again, look,
hey some writers just want to write in a Greek
but that's great, right, But the part where you know,
I get to go off and really craft something I
didn't get to do.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
It didn't exist. Fascinating. So the fact that it was
your first sort of significant show that took place in
a workplace environment is haphazard and there's zero connection.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
It was yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, that's interesting. What about Bernie Mac did you work?
I liked you worked with Kwappas, right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Worked with Clapas. I think he directed two of mine,
and I worked with Larry Wilmore. Larry I was running
that created that that was really interesting. That was it
was different than anything I had done before, a different
vibe in the room. But it was fun to do
and we were trying so they sent it wasn't better,
It's just it was maybe we didn't get there. But
you know, we were trying. It was good.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
The show was known for the moments where Bernie would
break the fourth wall and address the audience.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah, To what degree were those scripted moments or how
much did it come from him?
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Oh? The show was one hundred percent scripted.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
I don't remember any improvising on set.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Okay, So you would write those yeah, yeah, everything fully fully.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
And it was fully formed. So I got there in
season two, so Larry had fully formed the show right before.
You know, I wasn't a part of creating what that
show was.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
It just helped, just because I think it's interesting. You know,
these two shows essentially back to back, the Bernie Mack
Show and the Drew Carey Show, obviously named after their stars.
Was there anything different working in the writer's room when
you're writing for someone with their name on the show.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Yeah, they're they're there, and they're a huge presence. I
mean sometimes they come in. Drew Drew would he would
come in, kind of sit on the couch by the wall,
order a pizza for himself, and fall asleep. I liked
you a lot. I thought he was jolly and nice
(38:43):
and funny. I thought he was a good guy. But
you know when the star comes in and just kind
of casually sits down behind everyone, that's not That's not
good for creativity. No, yeah, no, that wasn't That wasn't
his best move. And then Bernie mac he was definitely
a guy who had a big sense of who he
(39:04):
was and how he was funny and what he wanted.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Is that part of your job figuring out how to
write his funny Yeah, definitely. I mean, I know Greg
talks about that. Not to bring up the office, but
Greg has talked a lot about that, about seeing forty
year old virgin and that giving him a different perspective
on kind of who Steve was and what Steve was
able to do, and incorporating that into the writing of
(39:30):
Michael Scott.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, he made a big decision there that there was
a broader character, a more likable guy. I mean, that
was a key decision to take the show for you.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, but in Bernie. In the case of Bernie, i mean,
his sort of style persona at that point was pretty
well defined. Yeah, because that becomes you.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
We were going to that and I was definitely at
a loss there being a white guy from Connecticut, it
was difficult to even understand him. Sometimes everyone else could mm,
but he had you know, he was kind of deep
Chicago and stop getting his voice. Yeah, but it was
(40:14):
a great challenge too.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Obviously we've talked a lot about the office, your impact
on the show, but significantly for you, it becomes your debut,
your premiere, your you become an actor.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Yeah. Yeah, I never thought could happened.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
You like it? Do you want to keep doing more?
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Yeah? It's interesting. It's interesting. You know. I don't think
about it much, and let but sometimes when I'm watching
something and there's someone kind of liked me, okay doing
a part, I start to think about different choices and
maybe I could have done that a little bit better.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Yeah, yeah, And I don't think about it much. And
you know, I made a movie where I started made
me think a lot about what a lead is lead actor.
I mean, it's very different.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
In what way you're talking. First off, you're talking about
Song of Neck and back by the way, he also
directed and produced and wrote and did the whole damn thing.
But being so number one on the call sheet, what
is that? Why is that different?
Speaker 1 (41:44):
I think you have the responsibility of creating someone and
maybe it's all. Maybe it's just genetic, but people have
to just want to watch. You put the camera on
someone and they bend down the tie their shoelaces. You know,
it's watching some people do that. That's going to be
fascinating and I can't take my eyes away. And other
(42:08):
people are just kind of tying their shoelaces, and a
lead needs to be fascinating. What does it take to
get there? You know, I don't have formal training. Maybe
there's maybe there's a lot you could do. I don't know,
or maybe you just have to have that persona that
face and that way of being when the camera's pointing
(42:28):
at you. I want to know what you're thinking. I
want to know what's going on right, I want to
see more. So like I don't know, I don't know
how to get there. I don't know if I ever could,
and the roads that takes me to. You know, I
stopped the next movie I made. I didn't put myself in.
I stopped trying to develop for myself because I don't
know what I don't know what that thing is.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yeah, I don't disagree with you. I think though that
I know that that cannot be something that you're thinking
about when you're doing it. I do know that.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah, No, you're probably right about that. I don't know.
I don't know, You're probably right. He just got to
be in the moment, Yeah, trying to do your thing.
Although sometimes you know, like Steve wasn't there till take twelve,
and there was nothing interesting about the first eleven takes.
I don't know, maybe there is something you can do.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Wow, I mean, there was nothing interesting in the first
eleven takes.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
I remember once with Julian Farino was directing this episode
that I wrote, and I was on set and it's
just I was watching the scene. I was like, blah,
you know what's going on? And I totally thought it
was me And I was talking to him about what
we could rewrite. I didn't know why it wasn't a
more entertaining scene, and he'd just sit hold on and
(43:52):
he went and he talked to Steve privately and came
back and the next take was amazing. Yeah, and it
was a completely a scene worth watching. And I don't
remember which what scene it was, but I remember being
completely happy and I said, it was like, what did
you What did you say to Steve? He said, I
(44:12):
just taught him. I told him to kind of, you know,
bring it up. It's gotta kind of bring it. So,
I don't know, we should have Steve on here and
ask him what the hell he does when he needs
to bring it.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
I think it's about just being fully committed to playing
the part in the given circumstance. I think that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Well, that's what I always felt about the rest of
my acting, you know, and playing Toby was like, when
I'm completely in it, then I'm scoring.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
For you. Yeah, acting, directing, writing, or I'm gonna say producing,
but being boss man, either showrunner or the head of
a movie, you being the person in charge. What's your favorite.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Straight out favorite ooh ooh oh. You know, it's because
it's moments I can't do that. I can't do that.
There's these moments that are amazing in each one of them.
While producing the least okay, but now there's moments in
acting when you nail something that everything just feels like
(45:17):
that's amazing. But at the same time, writing too, it's
what I get to still do, you know, I still
will I shouldn't say I'll still just sit here and
crack myself up. I would laugh.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
I could promise you this. I don't crack myself up
in front of a mirror. Yeah, but yeah, it's a difference.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Well, that's the toughest thing with acting, and that's why
I do it the least. That is it. That's when
I figured out when I went on a couple of
auditions after the office and being on the other side
of auditions, I learned how, how what I need to do,
And it's days of prep for an audition.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
What you need to do?
Speaker 1 (45:59):
What I would need to do is days of prep
for an audition. Okay, but that only makes sense if
that's that's all you're doing, right, you know, you can't.
You can't be pursuing multiple things. It'll just eat up
all of your time.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Why is it days of prep? What do you like?
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (46:15):
So? I think when I'm auditioning someone, someone has made
a decision about every word, and someone has made choices,
and they've created a character, and they've done all the work.
They get the part, you know, and it doesn't mean
that someone else wouldn't have gotten there and been great.
It's just that well they did it. I mean, you're
(46:38):
comparing people.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
This is fascinating to me. This is fascinating to me.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
So when someone comes in and they're reading, I know
they'll be I know that they would be okay from
there from a previous work. But I see it with
someone who said did everything. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
See, my theory is the opposite, not that the work
isn't there, because yes, the work should be there, and
there should be a character and choices made but fully formed.
My belief always is this is a collaborative situation, right,
and particularly as an actor who has given very very
(47:20):
little information most of the time.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Most of the time.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah, and if I'm auditioning for you and I don't
know you, this character is a character that has been imagined.
My job is to that I make it better in
some way or I at least embody perfectly the vision
that that writer has. But ultimately, in an audition, my
(47:45):
belief is is it's a work in progress. If I
come in with a fully, fully framed performance, then your
belief is psychologically that's how he's going to do it.
So here's an example. Yeah, I will memorize the pages.
I always hold a script, Always hold a script, because psychologically,
(48:10):
to me, that indicates to you we're working together on
this we're still on the working on this. I'm shuffling
papers and pay me not that I put that away.
Because to me, if I deliver a fully formed performance
where everything is done to me, then you believe that's
(48:30):
all this, that's that's the performance that I'm getting from
this guy.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Yeah. You know, when I start to think what you're
worried about is when we do it again and again
and the actor comes in exactly the exactly the same,
exactly the same.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
And my my favorite words in an audition is to
give me one adjustment and do it. I love doing it.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Again when I did when I did the newstrip or
contained Fonda. Okay, she said that when she comes on set,
she comes in with choices and having done all the work.
And she said, well, whoa, what if it said that
some people don't like that They want to be able
to direct you, you know, tell you what their character is.
(49:18):
And then she said, what if they don't. Yeah, I
don't know. So yeah, in a script, when not everything's
thought out the best way it should, it's not a
final product a script obviously, you know it's that's not
the kind of piece of writing that you're doing. So
you know, someone comes in they show you something better
(49:39):
than what you imagined, and it's just like fantastic, Oh, fantastic, right,
And it's a piece of relief. And I don't think
somebody can't not take an adjustment unless they show me
they can't, because we'll always give you know, I give
an adjustment to an actor even when I love their performance,
and I often make them worse because I liked what
(49:59):
they we're doing before. But still it's just like you
have to say something, and you know, if someone ignores
the adjustment, then that's maybe a red flag, right, fascinating Yeah,
And then sometimes you know, especially with television less so
with film, you're not auditioning for the director, right, you're
editioning for the writers who aren't going to be there
(50:21):
on set or aren't going to be the ones who
are able to have a conversation with you or give
you notes. Right, So it's like you get what they're after,
or get they're really happy with with what you're doing,
and it's just like, Okay, well, how much can the
director really fuck this up?
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Well? I know that's what the television producers are always
thinking about, how much how can we make this director prove? Yeah, well,
you're one of those two. I left it well. Your
latest show, Lucky Hank with the incredible member of the cast,
(51:03):
member of the office. Maybe not the role he wanted originally,
but he was still there. God bless America. Lucky Hank.
Such an interesting show. And what I want to talk
about is your partnership with Aaron Aaron Zelman. You guys
come from completely different backgrounds. Yeah, on order, criminal Minds,
(51:27):
the Killing Resurrection. I mean he's got a very dark damages,
bloodline procedurals.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Yeah, very dark, very dark. He's very comfortable writing stuff
that's very dark. He's a very funny guy. But the
more he okay, so this is interesting. It's just an
interesting So they were actors that we had who the
more they did it, the more serious they got, you know,
guest actors or something. And I've seen that with drama
(51:58):
actors that you know, first sake it's gone a light.
But the more they search for truth, which is their process,
the more they find the most truth in the most
dramatic parts of it.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
In your show, what were you searching for?
Speaker 1 (52:15):
So we started with a half hour script that we
sold and financially they didn't make it work. It to
be an hour. So we said, okay. Nobody said make
it more dramatic. Nobody said, don't make it a comedy.
But it just has a pull towards the dramatic, like
(52:35):
you're watching something for a longer amount of time and
it just has to kind of has to be there.
I don't know, but we were we were looking for
an honest look at the life of a workingman of
that age, and we just wanted it to be about
living life.
Speaker 2 (52:54):
You know.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
Obviously we were in a we didn't have a procedural,
we didn't have a thing to happen. But the thing
we could have had was either soap or issues, you know,
and we really fought hard to Every time we kind
of smelled soap coming in, we went the other way
and we didn't let any issues in. We just didn't
want to be an issue show. This was just about
(53:16):
trying to go through life. It got more dramatic as
it went on. We started off kind of light, and
as we got some other characters more and what they
were going through, and it's just a guy was having
a midlife crisis, and so you know, as Bob goes
through it, it's just it becomes just more intense. So
there's episodes where I really feel are comfortable in the
(53:40):
calling them a drama, and others, certainly early on, calling
it a comedy.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
But this is my belief. Life is both. Yeah, life
is both. For me, the best dramas are also funny,
not all. I mean there are some where it's so
crazy dark Maid's Tale. I think Handmaid's Tale is a
fantastic show. There is not a laugh in Handmaid's Tale
(54:06):
now all in all of the seasons. But for me,
you look at the sopranos. Yeah, Succession, I'm rewatching Fargo
now Planes. Yeah, there is a like I'm laughing out
loud with my earphones on and my iPad in bed,
Like I'm laughing out loud, and then you know, five
(54:28):
seconds later somebody gets brutally murdered. But that's what I think.
The best life is is both funny and dramatic and
sometimes at the same time. Why do we have to
characterize it?
Speaker 1 (54:41):
I know, I know, but it's it's wild. There's two
sets of executives. Got your comedy executives and your dramas.
You got to pitch right.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Oscar Nunez comes and plays an appearance, plays Dean Rose. Yeah,
why didn't I?
Speaker 1 (54:55):
Oh, I'm just fucking with you. I know you, I
know you are.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
I've literally never said that to anybody here but you.
I was like, Oscar is in it? What the hell
is that? He's not funny or dramatic?
Speaker 1 (55:16):
Love to have you in it?
Speaker 2 (55:18):
Is there? Season two?
Speaker 1 (55:19):
I hope? So, I don't know. We're on strike, but
ends they'll let me know that little thing.
Speaker 2 (55:27):
Yeah. Are you happy with the reception?
Speaker 1 (55:30):
People? Critics have loved it. I couldn't be happier there.
I just watched watch more people watched it. I mean,
television has changed so much. Yes, everybody used to watch everything.
I'man still a lot of millions and millions of people
watching what I write. And then it's six hundred thousand
and oh that's good, right, it is right.
Speaker 2 (55:50):
Well, it's not too late to watch it, by the way,
And the numbers still count.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
I never still count as it's getting and you know what,
I haven't even heard what we've what we've done on
amc US, which I think was a big part of
how people watched it.
Speaker 2 (56:03):
How I watched it, Good Lucky Hank with the incredible
Bob Bon and Kirk and Kirk.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
He's so good.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
How is uh? I can't ever say her name? And
I really like Murray, Yes he knows. Yeah, I love her.
And by the way, not typically funny like she she's
on those shows that are not typically so funny. She
(56:32):
is so delightful. And obviously my old friend Cedric, not obviously,
but Cedric, your Borough, Dietrich Botter, and many many more. Congratulations,
thanks on that.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
It's been fun to do and I think, really I'm
happy with how it came out, you.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
Know, good.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
I just want people to see it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:50):
Good. How is it? To go back to my original question,
working with Aaron? Was there a good there?
Speaker 1 (56:57):
So? It was a lot of fun there is so
we were from these different worlds. Yeah, and we would
argue forever, like hours and hours we could argue, and
then when we got to the page we would agree
so easily.
Speaker 2 (57:12):
Argue on a setup.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
We were what a scene should be, how to organize it,
like all the rules, all the ways that we put
together a scene were very different. Okay, ways that we've
been taught, the things we would value first as we
got to a place, and then it was just kind
of wild that we realized, Okay, we just got to
(57:35):
stop talking and put things down, and that's where we
really liked each other's writing, past scenes, back and forth easily.
It became very very easy. Actually nice.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yeah, well, that combination those differences sometimes you find real gold.
And I think the aesthetic and feeling of the show
is so hard to describe because it is something special
and different and new. So congratulations on that.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
Thanks. It was new. It was different, like we didn't
have a model. Yeah, I couldn't point to another show
saying this is what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (58:09):
Yeah, yeah, which different is good?
Speaker 1 (58:12):
It is, it is. I think it's why we're having
a tough time finding I just need that audience to
come check out the show. It's good. It's really good.
Speaker 2 (58:21):
Check it out. Check it out for Paul and for
me and my future role on season two. Yeah, the
writers strike, How is it different and the same as
what we went through on the Office in two thousand and.
Speaker 1 (58:36):
Eight, Let's see. I mean both times we're striking for
something very clear. Yes, this time feels different in that
even if we win, it's not gonna be enough. Yeah,
it wasn't anybody's fault, Like the companies didn't get together
as an oligopoly and decide, hey, let's let's screw the
(58:56):
writers and make everything six to eight episodes instead of
twenty two. But that's at the heart of it, because
we were the bottle that we were paid was per
episode based on twenty two to twenty four episodes a year.
In success, that's right. So now in success it's still
six or eight episodes. Still takes a year to do.
(59:17):
Especially I mean, if you're the showrunner and you're the
salary just went to a quarter to a third, So
nobody's fault. That's the way the marketplace went. But we're broken.
A quarter of what we're making is not enough. So
it's clear what happened. It's clear. It's clear what's wrong.
But you know, it's still we're fighting for these incremental gains, right,
(59:41):
just a few percentage points away actually in the deals.
So I don't know what's I don't know what the
future is going to be.
Speaker 2 (59:48):
I mean, to me, there's two issues, and you know
I can speak to it because it's it's all the same.
It's directors, it's writers, yeah, factors, but it's that, and
it's it's it's middle class actors and writers making a
living off residuals which went to zero.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Basically which went to zero. That's the other big thing,
and I feel like that's where we should all be
aligned with. All these three guilds should just get together.
Let's make the strike about residuals. I have a theory
that I I mean, I had a proposal that I
told them that don't seem to be acting on it.
What was it? It was just like, if the show
is being offered by a streamer for a month, that's
(01:00:30):
an airing, and that should be a network payment, like
straight out like what we were making. It was great before, right,
I mean, it was working. It was working, it was working.
So take that airing. You know that they did that
whatever payment it was, and it got less and less
each time it was aired. But fine, keep the same
payment structure every month the streamer offers it. It's an airing,
(01:00:53):
and we should get a residual right based on that
old scale, and get rid of this, get rid of
this idea that like then it should somehow be tied
to downloads. I think that's our downfall there.
Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Yeah, it's it's a very very real problem. Everybody. You
know the last writers strike that was one hundred days.
I think it probably could be two hundred or three
hundred days this time, but wow, I think they're going
to come to an agreement. Well, middle class actors and writers,
you can't survive anymore. You can't. You can't survive. You can't,
(01:01:30):
you know, And I'm talking about face. If you talk
about the actors faces that you know on television that
used to get through sometimes a year of not finding
much work based on work that they had done and
that was still being seen on television. Well now you
could make an argument that their work has continued to
be seen even more and they can't qualify for health insurance. Yeah,
(01:01:55):
this is this is a significant. This is a significant
and nothing has changed. Nothing has changed about the work
or how many people are seeing it or any of
that stuff. The only thing that has changed is the distribution,
and that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
So there you go on that note, pick up a sign,
and go walk down Sunset Boulevard. I'm so happy for
you and Lucky Hank. I'm so happy for you that
you have and are continuing to do work that is interesting,
that is changing the face of television, continuing to change
(01:02:36):
the face of television, and I just I love you,
I really do, and I.
Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Thank you love you too.
Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
I hope we get to do it again sometime. Yes,
find something else, or I'll find something and hire you
as an actor. Okay, that'll be maybe that'll be the switch.
Always interesting, never a dull moment. Paul Eberstein, Thanks Paul,
(01:03:04):
thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Paul, thank you so much. It was. It was so
great to talk to you again. You are engaging, you
are enlightening, and well you make me laugh. Everybody please
check out Lucky Hank, not just for Paul, but for yourselves.
You won't be disappointed. And while we're on the subject,
I do want to take a moment to let you
(01:03:40):
guys know the writer strike. This is a This is
a very big deal. And because the writers are on strike,
as I believe they should be, it is impacting everyone
who works on film and television. Nothing is being filmed
right now, so that means makeup artists, camera up raiders, gaffers,
(01:04:02):
production assistants, caterers, everyone is right now is out of work.
We're at seven weeks and like I said with Paul,
I think it could be much longer. So if you
want to support the strike and the writers and quite frankly,
eventually the actors consider making a donation to the Entertainment
(01:04:22):
Community Fund. This helps support all types of entertainment workers
who are affected by the strike. Entertainment Community Fund look
it up and if you're not in a position to
donate right now, take a look at the WGA website
for more ways that you can help. Thank you for listening.
You know the crew well, They're very important to me
(01:04:45):
and I want to make sure they are supported as
much as we all can during this difficult time. Best
wishes to all of you. Stay safe out there and
I'll see you next week. Off the Beat is hosted
(01:05:06):
and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer,
Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Diego Tapia. Our producers
are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris, and Emily Carr. Our talent
producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and our intern is Sammy Katz.
Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by the one
(01:05:27):
and Only Creed Bratton
I had some really dreadful scripts at Well, what was
your worst? I think I had wrote a Murphy Brown
where a terrorist came in. It's just so this so misguided.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
By the way. I love that you said I think
I wrote a Murphy Brown. Yeah, I know, I wrote No,
damn well, you wrote a Murphy Brown.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
No. The I think was that this might be my worst. Oh, okay,
because there's there's a lot of tuoth. Hi. My name
is Paul Lieberstein and I am Brian bob Gardner's mother.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Hi everybody, it's me Brian Bambgartner here, and you are
listening to another episode of Off the Beat today. You
just heard it. My mother is on the podcast. That's right,
our old friend, Paul Leeberstein, formerly known as Toby Flanderson. Well,
(01:08):
Paul didn't maybe he didn't give birth to me, but
in a way he was like a mother to me.
As the showrunner of the Office for several seasons, he
kept the wheels of the show turning. He's the one
that we went to with our problems, and he kept
our show safe, happy and well fed, just like a
(01:30):
mama bear. Today, I wanted to talk to Paul about
his life outside of the Office. He's not only a
loving mother, but he's a writer, actor, director, showrunner, producer,
not to mention, a trained economist and vibraphonist, as I
learned today in truth, Paul has helped redefine the genre
(01:53):
of the half hour sitcom with shows like Greg The Bunny,
The Drew Carey Show, The Bernie Max Show, Oh, King
of the Hill, not to mention, The Office, Newsroom, Ghosted,
and Space Force. Everything he touches turns to gold. Maybe
not gold, but it's innovative, it's smart, it's boundary pushing.
(02:14):
This is a person who really moves the needle of
television with everything he does. And right now he has
a brand new show on AMC, Lucky Hank with our
old friend Bob Odenkirk. It is every bit as excellent
and groundbreaking as well everything that Paul does. I highly
recommend it. But before that, please welcome my dear friend,
(02:39):
the soft spoken yet well mostly lovable Paul Lieberstein. Bubble
and Squeak.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I love it, Bubble and Squeakna.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Bubble and Squeaker cook it every month.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Left from the n.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Paul labors Sneardner. How's it going?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Oh, that's going great. That's going here good, it's going
it's going good. Yeah, I had jumped into great about
really thinking that through.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Well, listen, I just saw you. Now I'm seeing you again.
This isn't this is incredible?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
This good stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, this is like twice in a month we.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Had gaps without seeing each other. We Yeah, there have
been some significant guess it's been some big gaps lasting
a few years.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I know. Now have you been I'm going to ask
you some more about this later, but have you been
out with a picket sign? We are currently now on
day thirty two of the Writer's strike, the w GA strike.
Have you been carrying a sign?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
I've carried a sign? Well, you know what. I walked
the pick a line. I don't care the sign.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You don't care the sign to heavy, I don't.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
No one ever gave me a sign. I haven't asked
for one. It seems like it seems like everyone knows
what we're up to. But if if I if I
need to carry.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
A sign, OK, you'll carry the sign.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I never said no, we're not doing that.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
No, I know exactly. You don't check it. You don't
go to the table and check in, and you just
kind of.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
A card at the table, you do, Yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
They just seem fine with me now wearing the shirt, and.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, your story is so fascinating to me. I mean,
largely because of your family. So I want to I
want to rewind back in time. We're on the mean
streets of Connecticut.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, in the.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Late seventies, early eighties? What was what was what was
little Paul like? Back then? What did what did? What
did Paul like to do?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
I was really into music music. Yeah, played in the orchestra,
played percussion in orchestras. For a while, I thought I
was going to root a professional drummer.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
That's right. I forgot you were the drummer. I forgot.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
You gave me tips, that's right.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So you my I wanted to be a professional baseball player.
You wanted to be a professional drummer.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Now I have to I have to hit pause on
this for one second and ask you because I don't
even know what this is. Because you said percussion to start,
and I thought you were being vague. My excellent researching
team has found out that you played the vibra phone. Yeah,
what is a what's a vibra phone? I literally don't
know what a vibraphone.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Is, Well, you're about to that is a vibraphone.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh, it's like the.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Like a marimba. It's a big jazz instrument, largely metal
keys sustaining has a pedal there when you press it
down and it sustains. You play with a soft mallet.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Okay, and it's I love a soft mallet.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Well wait, so when you said percussion, but that was
drums as well. Yeah, you played things you could bang.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yes, exactly. Yeah, I'll believe it at that.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
So your first performing was.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Musically yeah, snare drum?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Were you good?
Speaker 1 (06:47):
I was good, as as I was a little better
than you are at that one is at that age,
you know, But I don't think I was, you know,
amazing yet kind of quick. Before before I had this experience,
we were on vacation in Florida and kind of like
(07:10):
ended up in some just dumb hotel lounge with a family.
There was this drummer and he had a couple of
electric drums there, and I thought it was really cool.
And that was before that was before the time of
electric drums. And I came up to him during a
break and yeah, asked him about it and we got
to talking and he's like, you want to be a drummer, God,
(07:31):
don't be a drummer. This is awful. This is horrible,
and no drummer had ever said that to me before.
And I'm like, whoa, this is going to be terrifle
allows the life.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
He was just a miserable person, though.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
He was, but I look, I was, you know fourteen
fifteen fourteen.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Did I ever tell you the story? I can't remember
if I've told this on the podcast or not. But
first off, for those of you who don't know, yes,
I am. I am not a drummer. I do not
play the drums. I never played the drums. They're the
greatest inside the writer's room writer joke in the history
of television was that, let's see if I get this right.
(08:21):
Because you're the musician, the writers on the Office wrote
Kevin to be the lead singer and drummer for a
police cover bande and the joke was cos, oh my god,
you just literally made everyone turn off. No, it was scranticity.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
It was the police.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Jesus Christ. Well, now you're not even gonna remember the joke.
So apparently the joke is I'll remind you of the
joke that you nerds made is that in the Police
the singing is off the beat name of this off
the beat of the drumming. So for me to be
(09:07):
the lead singer and drummer of a police cover band,
I would have to be an absolute musical savant genius
to be able to accomplish those two things. Do you
remember this now?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
It did great?
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Well, thank you, But that was the joke. That was
the joke that no one in the world knew. But
that was the joke Paul used to help me. He
would tutor me. I guess and I've said this many times.
Ed Helms and Craig Robinson amazing musicians, so we would
you know, by the time I started playing with them,
there would be like six songs and they'd be like, yeah, okay, cool,
(09:43):
we got it. I got guys, We've got to practice.
And I would call Paul in and be like, come
over to the warehouse with me. I need help here.
These guys won't help me. But one time I was
went to a charity event with Alice Cooper and I
picked up at the airport. Yes, and there was like
(10:04):
a benefit concert that night. I mean, these people from
Kiss and all of these amazing musicians are going to
play together for this charity thing. And the guy who
picks me up at the airport says, you know, and
then at the end the last song, we're going to
call everybody up on stage and we want you to
play the drums on schools out for Summer. And I
(10:28):
was like I started like full on, just flopsweating in
the back of the car. I was like, I can't, didn't, No,
I did. I told him no, I didn't care him,
I said to him, And He's like, no, well, of
course they think I'm being modest, right, I'm not that great.
(10:48):
I think it's what they're thinking. Meanwhile, it's Adrian Young
from No, like an amazing drummer, is like playing the
rest of the show and all this, and I'm like, no, no, really,
like I really cannot do this, Like I am not
going to have Alice Cooper and members of Kiss and
all these like looking back at me like, yeah, so
(11:13):
I did. I did. I didn't have my tutor you
there to help me learn, So no.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
I Oh, you know what we did on the office once.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
The first time you tell it, do you remember now
you're remembering I.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Remember we had a drummer behind a curtain.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
That was the first, the first, that's the only time
I didn't really play Phyllis's wedding.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Phillis's wedding, Yep, and it was.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
A great Was it from the Goo Goo Dolls or
something like that. I may be saying that totally the
wrong band. It was. It was a very famous, very
famous drummer who was behind the curtain playing the drums,
and I and mine were dead. What do you you know?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
I don't know. We put something on him or I
think you were really touching though, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
No, I think I was touching. Yeah, but yeah, but
you couldn't hear.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, did you need a drummer behind a curtain?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Drummer behind the curtain, that's right, all right. I did
not think we were gonna there you go. There are
stories of drumming with Brian.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
And Paul who were acting.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Your sister. Yeah, Suzanne's Zan Liberstein now Daniels Daniels and
your brother Warren Liberstein now Liberstein, both writers. Suzanne obviously
married to Greg Daniels, a world renowned that's a horrible
(12:44):
pra a world famous, a very big television executive, an
amazing book, by the way, which I have also read.
So what was were you all who was interested in
television in your home? All of you or none of you?
Or how did this start that all three of you
(13:06):
ended up working in television?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, I mean we all had different interests. Yes, Suzanne
always liked she always liked producing. She was like leadership organizing.
She was as great as that. She kind of she
did some in high school. She in college she produced
the Hasty Pudding Show. And then she at a college
she went started working for Lauren Michaels. And then I
(13:30):
was I was always really interested in comedy and writing
from how old junior high?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Probably okay?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
And I was writing stuff since junior high.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
What were your influences?
Speaker 1 (13:44):
What? Ady Allen? Without fathers and Steve Martin? Okay, and
my brother and I would memorize the Steve Martin stuff,
say it back and forth to each other those albums. Yeah,
so I was going after comedy, but I didn't think
anybody did that. Oh, Warren was acting and here was
a theater, and so we are. But we all just
kind of had our own roots to, you know, follow
(14:08):
our own interests there. But then once Suzanne graduated and
started working for Lauren Michaelson. Then she started meeting some
of her friends and she started dating Greg, and so
I got to know Greg and some writers, and I'm like, oh,
people can do this. This is a this is a job,
right that you can get. It didn't seem possible before.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
You know, right, right.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
I'd never met anyone. So I guess it was through
Suzanne that I thought I could get in and started
getting in and started writing. And it was a couple
of years before I got my first job after writing
many many specscriptions. And then Warren was graduated pursuing acting
in New York, and he has his head shots and right,
it's going for that and you know, as you know,
(14:52):
that's it's kind of a brutal and a brutal road
takes a tremendous amount not just talent but luck, right,
and so he wasn't getting nowhere, and I was like,
come on, come on, how to write? So Suzanne led.
The way you know we were talking is basically it
(15:14):
we were watching each other. So, right, it wasn't a
coincidence that we all ended up better.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Yes, but how lucky, I guess in a way for you,
I mean, you're you clearly could have found out this
information from somebody else, but that you know, her being
interested in producing yet landing with Lorne Michaels, who at
the time is the king of comedy on television. I mean,
you know, I mean starting SNL and and so for
(15:43):
you to have that experience of meeting Greg, meeting others,
seeing her work with them, that feels lucky. I mean, like, right,
I mean, if she goes to works with Jerry Bruckheimer,
it's a different it's a different deal.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Right, And I'm writing Lauren order space, No, I probably
still I mean I wrote what interested me? I wasn't
writing sketches, you know, I never tried to get on it.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
And now, right, do you think there's something about your
parents or your upbringing or was it your environment? What
do you think brought the three of you in some
ways to have this interest in the arts or was
it just you? Is it a coincidence?
Speaker 1 (16:25):
You know, I don't know my sister's job. You know,
it takes a lot of creativity and vision. But at
the heart of it, you know, she's been an executive,
a president.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
She's a business person.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yeah, yeah, what of mean things like warrenn I always
would have like loved, loved that acting thing work to
work out. I don't know. I mean he certainly gave
it up hard, so maybe he was ready, you know.
I think that happens like actors that just they don't
just like abandon a dream. It's just like it's okay, okay,
I did what I needed to do to try to
(16:57):
pursue that.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Right becomes very difficult. Yes, you studied economics.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, I studied economics, and I loved economics.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Why I loved it? What about it?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
It's so interesting. Economics, just like you know in macroeconomics,
certainly in an undergrad level, is about how to organize
the world. How do you organize society? I just think
it's it's fascinating. Everything you do is a series of
incentives to try to make the world, the country look
(17:32):
a certain way and act a certain way. I mean,
we are the US is more of it just a
result of its tax code than anything else.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Do you think that that experience helped you to create
worlds in television or at least manage people as showrunners?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
No? Absolutely not. In fact, nothing helped me manage people
as showrunners. I was not a good manager of people.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Of you were a good manager, you weren't a good
You don't think you were a good manager of people.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I think it was it was really hard for me.
I was not a natural manager of people. No.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Interesting, is that because you prefer to be by yourself?
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, we all prefer you to be by yourself. I
don't think you give yourself enough credit for that, because
I know because I think there are there are different
types of leaders, and there was I don't think any
question about your vision, and you had an ability to
(18:41):
articulate those things. I don't think it's about I don't
think being a people person as necessarily doesn't have to
make you a good leader. I'm not that you're not a.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
People no, no, no, look I like people.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
You do?
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Yeah I do? Yeah? No, And it's kind of not
what I was talking about it. It's not like being
alone us. There's something about there's something about leadership where
I think kind of a very selfish attitude gets you
a long long way and to view everyone there, everyone
(19:19):
around you as someone who can help you achieve what
you want. I think that's good for a leader. And
I think my natural thought processes is like I'm here
for everybody. I'm trying. I'm going to try to support
everybody and help them do their job as the boss.
(19:39):
And and I think that's it's just a rough way
to go about your day when there's so many people
people that you're managing. Yeah. Yeah, it kind of worked
in the writer's room. It was good there, but once
it got something the whole show, it's just it's just
a lot of people, right.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
It's still hard I think for people to understand there's
one hundred and fifty people there just working on this
one show. And that doesn't include you know, some post
production people, you know, some PR and marketing and all
of that. The number is even higher than that that
you're ultimately either overseeing or have a huge say in.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah. Yeah, we're managing towards too. Yeah. I had no
idea beyond with the network and studio multiple times a
day like that's oh as far as the right and
now we're going. Now we're going to go through the
budget line by line, right, Wow, Okay.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
That's why I asked you about economics.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
I mean, there's nothing in economics that that helps you
go through a budget.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
I tried again, and you shot me down again. There's
this thing in improv, you know, it's called yes, and
you just literally don't.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I don't think there is no. I don't think there is.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Anything, because you know what that just did. It just
shut down the conversation.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Well any way you worry, you would let the conversation
go to a place where it's just like, Okay, we're
talking about spreadsheets.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
I don't know. I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I think it's the conversation is doing great.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Let's go back. Clarissa explains it all. That's your first
that's my first job, your first staff writing job. How'd
you get.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
It through an agent? My first agent at William Morris, Okay,
with a writing partner at the time, I started off
just that job. I had a writing partner, Okay, And
uh yeah, we went to I had come out here,
signed a lease, and days later got a job that
took me back to New York writing, and then we
(22:09):
filmed in Orlando.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
In Orlando, Yeah, Orlando.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Every time we got lost in Orlando, you'd end up
at Disneyland. Yeah it's a big place.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, So were you living there or were you writing
in New York? And then you would go down occasion
to go down.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Not occasionally. We went down for like four months. Oh okay,
it was great. It was great. You know, say twenty
four or twenty five something like that. Yeah, send me
to Orlando, what do I care? Put me up in
like a you know, a corporate apartment. Wow, it's bigger
than any apartment I have had.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
You were super psyched. Yeah, did you figure that you
were living out your dream?
Speaker 1 (22:56):
There was no question? And I was getting Uh. I
was sharing the salary with another with my writing part right,
and it was writer skilled minimum, and we were for sharing.
And I felt so loaded. I don't think I've ever
felt richer.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Really. Yeah, Now, did you have to share a bed?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And no? Right, no, no, did I think we shared
like a two bedroom corporate apartment?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Okay, all right, but you were living the life in
Orlando at twenty four.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Oh yeah, No, it's the best. It's the best I
can imagine. I can mention going bit and we would
we would write and then I remember taking could take
a break. Someone on the cast, like one of the
fifteen year olds would go like back to the future,
right or something, because we were on the universal connected
(23:50):
to the universal lot. Okay, it was just good, like yeah, No,
that's what a job should be.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
You have a number of jobs in these times, during
this period time after Clarissa explains it all weird science.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Weird science is serious the series.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Yeah, and then eventually you get hired by a guy
named Greg Daniels for a little show called King of
the Hill. Now, had you worked with Greg at all?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
But he has like been aware of my specscripts. You know,
I'd always ask him, hey, what do you think of
this one is?
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Oh? He would read them?
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah, yeah, okay, so he knew I was getting better
as a writer, gaining experience. I had some really dreadful
scripts in the beginning.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Well, what was your worst?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I think I had wrote a Murphy Brown where a
terrorist came in. It's just so this so miskided.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
By the way. I love that you said I think
I wrote a Murphy Brown.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Oh yeah, I know, I wrote No.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Damn, well, you wrote a Murphy Brown.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
The I think was that this might be my worst.
Because there's there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Of did you do like back then? What were the
big like did you have a friends? Did you have
a Seinfeld?
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I had a friends that had Seinfeld? Cheers Cheers might
have been my very first script and I don't remember
the plot.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Let me guess they were in a bar.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Hm. I'm sure it was not good.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
What made you get better? Do you think your experience
working made you get better?
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I think my experience not working actually, like this was
not was not going anywhere. I wasn't getting work and
the scripts had to be better. And then when I
finally nailed it, I wrote like a Larry Sanders Sanders
and the like. It was crazy how everything changed, The
(25:54):
doors flew open, and I was hired on show after
show based on that script. Really, yeah, I always I like,
I give it a piece of advice to young writers
when they asked occasionally, which is, if someone gave me
a script and it was very good and I forwarded
it to an agent, it was a it's a favor
(26:15):
to that writer who gave me the script. But if
the script is excellent, it's a favorite of the agent,
And if I give it to a producer, it's a
favorite of the producer. You know, it just everything flips
got it and I saw one script just like really
with me through the first phase of working.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Now, King of the Hill, What was it like working
with Greg?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Oh? It was really like Greg it was for showrunning. Yeah,
so he was very different. He was kind of learning
how to be a showrunner too, but he had crazy
high standards. He's coming off the as you know, it's
coming off The Simpsons, and The Simpsons was headed atmosphere
of just like you don't go Home, and so he
brought that over to King of the Hill and we
(27:06):
were there just all the time writing and you know,
every script got thrown out so many times before it
became what it was. He worked so hard and making
something new. I mean, a show like that had that
concept had never existed before. Right. There was this question
that was just one of these network questions that they're
(27:27):
told to ask of every animation, and so why does
this have to be animated? That was just in the
dogma and the answer was that it doesn't, and I'm
doing it anyway. Yeah. So right, so he put together
a really fun staff, some people from The Simpsons and
some new people, some people from Texas, you know, to
(27:49):
try to get an authentic voice, and we really bonded
and we played. We just played and played. And when
you're there all the time, there's there's time because you
can't be it can't be productive all day, so it
opens up more time to kind of goof around, and
the bits became really extensive. We had an Office Olympics
(28:12):
that turned into the Offices Office Olympics, right. We had
there was a while there where we were a NERF
basketball game at lunch in the hallway. Started taking it
pretty seriously and the time that it would take, we
started eating really quickly so we could get to it
with fast, and we started sweating, so it'd bring a
change of clothes and then we'd bring like, let's just
(28:36):
straight out change the sneakers, but on basketball, and we
would get there and we would It became this thing
where we were like playing two hours in NERF basketball, right,
h just sweating story. But it was great. The writers
(28:56):
were super high quality and learned a lot, and it
was my style of writing, you know, just real people
talking about any kind of like big joke, you know,
much more more charactery. And it was a place where
I could really thrive.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Do you feel like there was anything different about writing
for animation which you hadn't done before, either or because
there was no reason this show had to be animated.
It was very much the same. It was.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
It was very much the same The only thing that
was freed up was it's as if I was writing
a live action show with a tremendous budget, because I
could have, you know, thirty five locations right for a
you know, in twenty two minutes. You know, I can
cut someplace new for a one line scene. And that
(29:54):
that was great training too, I think. But you know,
you don't get to do that in a cit right,
you get your one day out, you know, right, you
have your sense and then you get one.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Day out, so there's greater constraints. Yeah, you know. I
used to joke occasionally by the end with you guys
about about Kevin Malone and trying to explain to you
writers that I was not a cartoon character. I'm sorry
(30:27):
and that, and that physically there were limitations to what I.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Could actually do that that.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Could do.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
No, you were not. We didn't give you that stuff.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Oh listen of all of the stuff. Yeah, the one
that I still feel and and it was it is
such a small joke and it made me laugh. It
is such a small joke episode where there's great we
used Reese in the warehouse to load trucks, and we're
(31:05):
taking over from the warehouse and there's grease everywhere. Dwight
and Jim are sitting on the sofa in the warehouse
doing a talking head and I walk behind and then
there's grease and then I slip and it was like, no, no,
(31:25):
you just need to like it's grease, like you just
need to disappear, which, of course that means I'm laying
I'm falling flat on my back behind the sofa. That
one I still feel by the way that one I
still feel.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
And what year, what season was that?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I don't know, Paul, don't ask all these questions. This
was a spontaneous story. I didn't do research on that.
Do you it's a little bit of a loaded question.
Do you have feelings about other animated shows that are
potentially not positive? Yeah? Do you have feelings about other
(32:05):
animated shows that you feel like the writing gets sloppy,
I as opposed to the care that you all had
on King of the Hill.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Well, it's not just animated. I feel most shows, you know,
I feel most shows slip and many shows never even
get there. I mean, you know, And part of it
is style and preference, the big multicams that where they
have this big setup and joke and the setup could
be literally labored, and it kind of doesn't matter if
it barely makes sense. There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
But I don't like, you don't want to write it.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I don't want to write it, and I don't want
to watch it. But but so what, It doesn't mean that,
like millions of people are wrong for enjoying it, right,
so we understandly, Like, yeah, I can't watch most television
or comedy. I can't watch most comedy because I just
(32:56):
it just makes me too angry that they're making decisions right. No,
And I hear a setup that's a tiny bit labored
and isn't honest, it makes me angry, you know, And
I can't enjoy the joke that comes after, and it
really takes me out of it.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
It's so interesting. You and I are very very st.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
And sometimes I hear the whole conversation that went into
a joke. Yeah, I hear that, and I hear the
like the twenty minutes that created it.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I do the same thing with actors, really, I do
the same I do the same thing. Yeah, it's when
there's a choice that is made that makes no sense
in terms of character, but is done for the writers. Oh,
it makes me so angry. Yeah, it makes me so angry.
(33:45):
I mean that and bad performances, let's be clear. Yeah,
but but it again.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
It's just like, what do you want to call a
bad performance if I just took my daughter to see Hairspray? Okay,
So in that there's a kind of performance that everybody's doing.
Obviously they were all directed to do it, and maybe
it's baked into the into the show itself, right that
I do not that's tough to call that acting, even
(34:11):
for me, you know, because you're not even pretending. But hey,
there was a thousand people like loving it?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
So right? Did your daughter love it?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
She liked it. It's not her favorite musical, okay, I
mean she didn't know that. Going favorite musical probably Hamilton.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Okay, that's a great choice.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
That's a great choice.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
That's a great choice. Makes dad proud. So after King
of the Hill, you have this stretch I referred to
before Drew Carey Show, the Bernie mac Show. What were
what was it about those shows that you bunny? What
was it about those shows that worked well for you
(34:54):
or that you responded to or why were they good
shows for you?
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Yeah? So the first one Drew carry it ended up
being like just an awful mistake.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Okay, yeah, Like I.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Kind of enjoyed watching it, and I was like, oh,
they're really doing non sensical kind of you know, some
of the leaps they make logically or just kind of
like breaking the rules a little bit. And I was like, huh,
this is a kind of a real forward thinking show.
And then when I got there, it was like it
was all by accident. They weren't doing that on purpose.
(35:30):
Oh really, yeah, I think so. They just it was
how they worked, and they did everything together. There was
no solo.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Work for writers.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
In fact, I was completely confused the first time I
was sent off for script because in the room fifteen
of us whatever went line by line through an outline
creating the dialogue, and the whole thing was just written
in a different form, not in script form. And then
at a certain point they gave it to me and
said you have a week. I was like a week
(36:01):
to do what? And there's in fact, there were like
three lines maybe there where they got stuck on a
joke and they just said writer's choice, and I think
there was like a joke for them to write that,
And I was like, am I just supposed to reform
at this and fill in three jokes? Am I rewriting
something I don't I still don't know what I was
(36:21):
supposed to do and I can't remember what I did.
It was very afusing to me. But the part where
the part where you know, I just personally enjoy and again, look,
hey some writers just want to write in a Greek
but that's great, right, But the part where you know,
I get to go off and really craft something I
didn't get to do.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
It didn't exist. Fascinating. So the fact that it was
your first sort of significant show that took place in
a workplace environment is haphazard and there's zero connection.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
It was yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah, that's interesting. What about Bernie Mac did you work?
I liked you worked with Kwappas, right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Worked with Clapas. I think he directed two of mine,
and I worked with Larry Wilmore. Larry I was running
that created that that was really interesting. That was it
was different than anything I had done before, a different
vibe in the room. But it was fun to do
and we were trying so they sent it wasn't better,
It's just it was maybe we didn't get there. But
you know, we were trying. It was good.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
The show was known for the moments where Bernie would
break the fourth wall and address the audience.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah, To what degree were those scripted moments or how
much did it come from him?
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Oh? The show was one hundred percent scripted.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
I don't remember any improvising on set.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
Okay, So you would write those yeah, yeah, everything fully fully.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
And it was fully formed. So I got there in
season two, so Larry had fully formed the show right before.
You know, I wasn't a part of creating what that
show was.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
It just helped, just because I think it's interesting. You know,
these two shows essentially back to back, the Bernie Mack
Show and the Drew Carey Show, obviously named after their stars.
Was there anything different working in the writer's room when
you're writing for someone with their name on the show.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Yeah, they're they're there, and they're a huge presence. I
mean sometimes they come in. Drew Drew would he would
come in, kind of sit on the couch by the wall,
order a pizza for himself, and fall asleep. I liked
you a lot. I thought he was jolly and nice
(38:43):
and funny. I thought he was a good guy. But
you know when the star comes in and just kind
of casually sits down behind everyone, that's not That's not
good for creativity. No, yeah, no, that wasn't That wasn't
his best move. And then Bernie mac he was definitely
a guy who had a big sense of who he
(39:04):
was and how he was funny and what he wanted.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Is that part of your job figuring out how to
write his funny Yeah, definitely. I mean, I know Greg
talks about that. Not to bring up the office, but
Greg has talked a lot about that, about seeing forty
year old virgin and that giving him a different perspective
on kind of who Steve was and what Steve was
able to do, and incorporating that into the writing of
(39:30):
Michael Scott.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, he made a big decision there that there was
a broader character, a more likable guy. I mean, that
was a key decision to take the show for you.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, but in Bernie. In the case of Bernie, i mean,
his sort of style persona at that point was pretty
well defined. Yeah, because that becomes you.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
We were going to that and I was definitely at
a loss there being a white guy from Connecticut, it
was difficult to even understand him. Sometimes everyone else could mm,
but he had you know, he was kind of deep
Chicago and stop getting his voice. Yeah, but it was
(40:14):
a great challenge too.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Obviously we've talked a lot about the office, your impact
on the show, but significantly for you, it becomes your debut,
your premiere, your you become an actor.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
Yeah. Yeah, I never thought could happened.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
You like it? Do you want to keep doing more?
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Yeah? It's interesting. It's interesting. You know. I don't think
about it much, and let but sometimes when I'm watching
something and there's someone kind of liked me, okay doing
a part, I start to think about different choices and
maybe I could have done that a little bit better.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
Yeah, yeah, And I don't think about it much. And
you know, I made a movie where I started made
me think a lot about what a lead is lead actor.
I mean, it's very different.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
In what way you're talking. First off, you're talking about
Song of Neck and back by the way, he also
directed and produced and wrote and did the whole damn thing.
But being so number one on the call sheet, what
is that? Why is that different?
Speaker 1 (41:44):
I think you have the responsibility of creating someone and
maybe it's all. Maybe it's just genetic, but people have
to just want to watch. You put the camera on
someone and they bend down the tie their shoelaces. You know,
it's watching some people do that. That's going to be
fascinating and I can't take my eyes away. And other
(42:08):
people are just kind of tying their shoelaces, and a
lead needs to be fascinating. What does it take to
get there? You know, I don't have formal training. Maybe
there's maybe there's a lot you could do. I don't know,
or maybe you just have to have that persona that
face and that way of being when the camera's pointing
(42:28):
at you. I want to know what you're thinking. I
want to know what's going on right, I want to
see more. So like I don't know, I don't know
how to get there. I don't know if I ever could,
and the roads that takes me to. You know, I
stopped the next movie I made. I didn't put myself in.
I stopped trying to develop for myself because I don't
know what I don't know what that thing is.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Yeah, I don't disagree with you. I think though that
I know that that cannot be something that you're thinking
about when you're doing it. I do know that.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah, No, you're probably right about that. I don't know.
I don't know, You're probably right. He just got to
be in the moment, Yeah, trying to do your thing.
Although sometimes you know, like Steve wasn't there till take twelve,
and there was nothing interesting about the first eleven takes.
I don't know, maybe there is something you can do.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Wow, I mean, there was nothing interesting in the first
eleven takes.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
I remember once with Julian Farino was directing this episode
that I wrote, and I was on set and it's
just I was watching the scene. I was like, blah,
you know what's going on? And I totally thought it
was me And I was talking to him about what
we could rewrite. I didn't know why it wasn't a
more entertaining scene, and he'd just sit hold on and
(43:52):
he went and he talked to Steve privately and came
back and the next take was amazing. Yeah, and it
was a completely a scene worth watching. And I don't
remember which what scene it was, but I remember being
completely happy and I said, it was like, what did
you What did you say to Steve? He said, I
(44:12):
just taught him. I told him to kind of, you know,
bring it up. It's gotta kind of bring it. So,
I don't know, we should have Steve on here and
ask him what the hell he does when he needs
to bring it.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
I think it's about just being fully committed to playing
the part in the given circumstance. I think that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Well, that's what I always felt about the rest of
my acting, you know, and playing Toby was like, when
I'm completely in it, then I'm scoring.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
For you. Yeah, acting, directing, writing, or I'm gonna say producing,
but being boss man, either showrunner or the head of
a movie, you being the person in charge. What's your favorite.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Straight out favorite ooh ooh oh. You know, it's because
it's moments I can't do that. I can't do that.
There's these moments that are amazing in each one of them.
While producing the least okay, but now there's moments in
acting when you nail something that everything just feels like
(45:17):
that's amazing. But at the same time, writing too, it's
what I get to still do, you know, I still
will I shouldn't say I'll still just sit here and
crack myself up. I would laugh.
Speaker 2 (45:34):
I could promise you this. I don't crack myself up
in front of a mirror. Yeah, but yeah, it's a difference.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Well, that's the toughest thing with acting, and that's why
I do it the least. That is it. That's when
I figured out when I went on a couple of
auditions after the office and being on the other side
of auditions, I learned how, how what I need to do,
And it's days of prep for an audition.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
What you need to do?
Speaker 1 (45:59):
What I would need to do is days of prep
for an audition. Okay, but that only makes sense if
that's that's all you're doing, right, you know, you can't.
You can't be pursuing multiple things. It'll just eat up
all of your time.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
Why is it days of prep? What do you like?
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (46:15):
So? I think when I'm auditioning someone, someone has made
a decision about every word, and someone has made choices,
and they've created a character, and they've done all the work.
They get the part, you know, and it doesn't mean
that someone else wouldn't have gotten there and been great.
It's just that well they did it. I mean, you're
(46:38):
comparing people.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
This is fascinating to me. This is fascinating to me.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
So when someone comes in and they're reading, I know
they'll be I know that they would be okay from
there from a previous work. But I see it with
someone who said did everything. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
See, my theory is the opposite, not that the work
isn't there, because yes, the work should be there, and
there should be a character and choices made but fully formed.
My belief always is this is a collaborative situation, right,
and particularly as an actor who has given very very
(47:20):
little information most of the time.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Most of the time.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah, and if I'm auditioning for you and I don't
know you, this character is a character that has been imagined.
My job is to that I make it better in
some way or I at least embody perfectly the vision
that that writer has. But ultimately, in an audition, my
(47:45):
belief is is it's a work in progress. If I
come in with a fully, fully framed performance, then your
belief is psychologically that's how he's going to do it.
So here's an example. Yeah, I will memorize the pages.
I always hold a script, Always hold a script, because psychologically,
(48:10):
to me, that indicates to you we're working together on
this we're still on the working on this. I'm shuffling
papers and pay me not that I put that away.
Because to me, if I deliver a fully formed performance
where everything is done to me, then you believe that's
(48:30):
all this, that's that's the performance that I'm getting from
this guy.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Yeah. You know, when I start to think what you're
worried about is when we do it again and again
and the actor comes in exactly the exactly the same,
exactly the same.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
And my my favorite words in an audition is to
give me one adjustment and do it. I love doing it.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Again when I did when I did the newstrip or
contained Fonda. Okay, she said that when she comes on set,
she comes in with choices and having done all the work.
And she said, well, whoa, what if it said that
some people don't like that They want to be able
to direct you, you know, tell you what their character is.
(49:18):
And then she said, what if they don't. Yeah, I
don't know. So yeah, in a script, when not everything's
thought out the best way it should, it's not a
final product a script obviously, you know it's that's not
the kind of piece of writing that you're doing. So
you know, someone comes in they show you something better
(49:39):
than what you imagined, and it's just like fantastic, Oh, fantastic, right,
And it's a piece of relief. And I don't think
somebody can't not take an adjustment unless they show me
they can't, because we'll always give you know, I give
an adjustment to an actor even when I love their performance,
and I often make them worse because I liked what
(49:59):
they we're doing before. But still it's just like you
have to say something, and you know, if someone ignores
the adjustment, then that's maybe a red flag, right, fascinating Yeah,
And then sometimes you know, especially with television less so
with film, you're not auditioning for the director, right, you're
editioning for the writers who aren't going to be there
(50:21):
on set or aren't going to be the ones who
are able to have a conversation with you or give
you notes. Right, So it's like you get what they're after,
or get they're really happy with with what you're doing,
and it's just like, Okay, well, how much can the
director really fuck this up?
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Well? I know that's what the television producers are always
thinking about, how much how can we make this director prove? Yeah, well,
you're one of those two. I left it well. Your
latest show, Lucky Hank with the incredible member of the cast,
(51:03):
member of the office. Maybe not the role he wanted originally,
but he was still there. God bless America. Lucky Hank.
Such an interesting show. And what I want to talk
about is your partnership with Aaron Aaron Zelman. You guys
come from completely different backgrounds. Yeah, on order, criminal Minds,
(51:27):
the Killing Resurrection. I mean he's got a very dark damages,
bloodline procedurals.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Yeah, very dark, very dark. He's very comfortable writing stuff
that's very dark. He's a very funny guy. But the
more he okay, so this is interesting. It's just an
interesting So they were actors that we had who the
more they did it, the more serious they got, you know,
guest actors or something. And I've seen that with drama
(51:58):
actors that you know, first sake it's gone a light.
But the more they search for truth, which is their process,
the more they find the most truth in the most
dramatic parts of it.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
In your show, what were you searching for?
Speaker 1 (52:15):
So we started with a half hour script that we
sold and financially they didn't make it work. It to
be an hour. So we said, okay. Nobody said make
it more dramatic. Nobody said, don't make it a comedy.
But it just has a pull towards the dramatic, like
(52:35):
you're watching something for a longer amount of time and
it just has to kind of has to be there.
I don't know, but we were we were looking for
an honest look at the life of a workingman of
that age, and we just wanted it to be about
living life.
Speaker 2 (52:54):
You know.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
Obviously we were in a we didn't have a procedural,
we didn't have a thing to happen. But the thing
we could have had was either soap or issues, you know,
and we really fought hard to Every time we kind
of smelled soap coming in, we went the other way
and we didn't let any issues in. We just didn't
want to be an issue show. This was just about
(53:16):
trying to go through life. It got more dramatic as
it went on. We started off kind of light, and
as we got some other characters more and what they
were going through, and it's just a guy was having
a midlife crisis, and so you know, as Bob goes
through it, it's just it becomes just more intense. So
there's episodes where I really feel are comfortable in the
(53:40):
calling them a drama, and others, certainly early on, calling
it a comedy.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
But this is my belief. Life is both. Yeah, life
is both. For me, the best dramas are also funny,
not all. I mean there are some where it's so
crazy dark Maid's Tale. I think Handmaid's Tale is a
fantastic show. There is not a laugh in Handmaid's Tale
(54:06):
now all in all of the seasons. But for me,
you look at the sopranos. Yeah, Succession, I'm rewatching Fargo
now Planes. Yeah, there is a like I'm laughing out
loud with my earphones on and my iPad in bed,
Like I'm laughing out loud, and then you know, five
(54:28):
seconds later somebody gets brutally murdered. But that's what I think.
The best life is is both funny and dramatic and
sometimes at the same time. Why do we have to
characterize it?
Speaker 1 (54:41):
I know, I know, but it's it's wild. There's two
sets of executives. Got your comedy executives and your dramas.
You got to pitch right.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Oscar Nunez comes and plays an appearance, plays Dean Rose. Yeah,
why didn't I?
Speaker 1 (54:55):
Oh, I'm just fucking with you. I know you, I
know you are.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
I've literally never said that to anybody here but you.
I was like, Oscar is in it? What the hell
is that? He's not funny or dramatic?
Speaker 1 (55:16):
Love to have you in it?
Speaker 2 (55:18):
Is there? Season two?
Speaker 1 (55:19):
I hope? So, I don't know. We're on strike, but
ends they'll let me know that little thing.
Speaker 2 (55:27):
Yeah. Are you happy with the reception?
Speaker 1 (55:30):
People? Critics have loved it. I couldn't be happier there.
I just watched watch more people watched it. I mean,
television has changed so much. Yes, everybody used to watch everything.
I'man still a lot of millions and millions of people
watching what I write. And then it's six hundred thousand
and oh that's good, right, it is right.
Speaker 2 (55:50):
Well, it's not too late to watch it, by the way,
And the numbers still count.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
I never still count as it's getting and you know what,
I haven't even heard what we've what we've done on
amc US, which I think was a big part of
how people watched it.
Speaker 2 (56:03):
How I watched it, Good Lucky Hank with the incredible
Bob Bon and Kirk and Kirk.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
He's so good.
Speaker 2 (56:11):
How is uh? I can't ever say her name? And
I really like Murray, Yes he knows. Yeah, I love her.
And by the way, not typically funny like she she's
on those shows that are not typically so funny. She
(56:32):
is so delightful. And obviously my old friend Cedric, not obviously,
but Cedric, your Borough, Dietrich Botter, and many many more. Congratulations,
thanks on that.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
It's been fun to do and I think, really I'm
happy with how it came out, you.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
Know, good.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
I just want people to see it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:50):
Good. How is it? To go back to my original question,
working with Aaron? Was there a good there?
Speaker 1 (56:57):
So? It was a lot of fun there is so
we were from these different worlds. Yeah, and we would
argue forever, like hours and hours we could argue, and
then when we got to the page we would agree
so easily.
Speaker 2 (57:12):
Argue on a setup.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
We were what a scene should be, how to organize it,
like all the rules, all the ways that we put
together a scene were very different. Okay, ways that we've
been taught, the things we would value first as we
got to a place, and then it was just kind
of wild that we realized, Okay, we just got to
(57:35):
stop talking and put things down, and that's where we
really liked each other's writing, past scenes, back and forth easily.
It became very very easy. Actually nice.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yeah, well, that combination those differences sometimes you find real gold.
And I think the aesthetic and feeling of the show
is so hard to describe because it is something special
and different and new. So congratulations on that.
Speaker 1 (58:02):
Thanks. It was new. It was different, like we didn't
have a model. Yeah, I couldn't point to another show
saying this is what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (58:09):
Yeah, yeah, which different is good?
Speaker 1 (58:12):
It is, it is. I think it's why we're having
a tough time finding I just need that audience to
come check out the show. It's good. It's really good.
Speaker 2 (58:21):
Check it out. Check it out for Paul and for
me and my future role on season two. Yeah, the
writers strike, How is it different and the same as
what we went through on the Office in two thousand and.
Speaker 1 (58:36):
Eight, Let's see. I mean both times we're striking for
something very clear. Yes, this time feels different in that
even if we win, it's not gonna be enough. Yeah,
it wasn't anybody's fault, Like the companies didn't get together
as an oligopoly and decide, hey, let's let's screw the
(58:56):
writers and make everything six to eight episodes instead of
twenty two. But that's at the heart of it, because
we were the bottle that we were paid was per
episode based on twenty two to twenty four episodes a year.
In success, that's right. So now in success it's still
six or eight episodes. Still takes a year to do.
(59:17):
Especially I mean, if you're the showrunner and you're the
salary just went to a quarter to a third, So
nobody's fault. That's the way the marketplace went. But we're broken.
A quarter of what we're making is not enough. So
it's clear what happened. It's clear. It's clear what's wrong.
But you know, it's still we're fighting for these incremental gains, right,
(59:41):
just a few percentage points away actually in the deals.
So I don't know what's I don't know what the
future is going to be.
Speaker 2 (59:48):
I mean, to me, there's two issues, and you know
I can speak to it because it's it's all the same.
It's directors, it's writers, yeah, factors, but it's that, and
it's it's it's middle class actors and writers making a
living off residuals which went to zero.
Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Basically which went to zero. That's the other big thing,
and I feel like that's where we should all be
aligned with. All these three guilds should just get together.
Let's make the strike about residuals. I have a theory
that I I mean, I had a proposal that I
told them that don't seem to be acting on it.
What was it? It was just like, if the show
is being offered by a streamer for a month, that's
(01:00:30):
an airing, and that should be a network payment, like
straight out like what we were making. It was great before, right,
I mean, it was working. It was working, it was working.
So take that airing. You know that they did that
whatever payment it was, and it got less and less
each time it was aired. But fine, keep the same
payment structure every month the streamer offers it. It's an airing,
(01:00:53):
and we should get a residual right based on that
old scale, and get rid of this, get rid of
this idea that like then it should somehow be tied
to downloads. I think that's our downfall there.
Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Yeah, it's it's a very very real problem. Everybody. You
know the last writers strike that was one hundred days.
I think it probably could be two hundred or three
hundred days this time, but wow, I think they're going
to come to an agreement. Well, middle class actors and writers,
you can't survive anymore. You can't. You can't survive. You can't,
(01:01:30):
you know, And I'm talking about face. If you talk
about the actors faces that you know on television that
used to get through sometimes a year of not finding
much work based on work that they had done and
that was still being seen on television. Well now you
could make an argument that their work has continued to
be seen even more and they can't qualify for health insurance. Yeah,
(01:01:55):
this is this is a significant. This is a significant
and nothing has changed. Nothing has changed about the work
or how many people are seeing it or any of
that stuff. The only thing that has changed is the distribution,
and that's a problem.
Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
So there you go on that note, pick up a sign,
and go walk down Sunset Boulevard. I'm so happy for
you and Lucky Hank. I'm so happy for you that
you have and are continuing to do work that is interesting,
that is changing the face of television, continuing to change
(01:02:36):
the face of television, and I just I love you,
I really do, and I.
Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Thank you love you too.
Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
I hope we get to do it again sometime. Yes,
find something else, or I'll find something and hire you
as an actor. Okay, that'll be maybe that'll be the switch.
Always interesting, never a dull moment. Paul Eberstein, Thanks Paul,
(01:03:04):
thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Paul, thank you so much. It was. It was so
great to talk to you again. You are engaging, you
are enlightening, and well you make me laugh. Everybody please
check out Lucky Hank, not just for Paul, but for yourselves.
You won't be disappointed. And while we're on the subject,
I do want to take a moment to let you
(01:03:40):
guys know the writer strike. This is a This is
a very big deal. And because the writers are on strike,
as I believe they should be, it is impacting everyone
who works on film and television. Nothing is being filmed
right now, so that means makeup artists, camera up raiders, gaffers,
(01:04:02):
production assistants, caterers, everyone is right now is out of work.
We're at seven weeks and like I said with Paul,
I think it could be much longer. So if you
want to support the strike and the writers and quite frankly,
eventually the actors consider making a donation to the Entertainment
(01:04:22):
Community Fund. This helps support all types of entertainment workers
who are affected by the strike. Entertainment Community Fund look
it up and if you're not in a position to
donate right now, take a look at the WGA website
for more ways that you can help. Thank you for listening.
You know the crew well, They're very important to me
(01:04:45):
and I want to make sure they are supported as
much as we all can during this difficult time. Best
wishes to all of you. Stay safe out there and
I'll see you next week. Off the Beat is hosted
(01:05:06):
and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer,
Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Diego Tapia. Our producers
are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris, and Emily Carr. Our talent
producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and our intern is Sammy Katz.
Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by the one
(01:05:27):
and Only Creed Bratton
Host
Brian Baumgartner
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