April 20, 2021 • 46 mins
Brian finally gets his Oprah moment when he surprises his former castmate Phyllis Smith with a very special guest, her old boss and friend Allison Jones. They reunite to talk about the child actor that blew their mind with only one line, how Phyllis really got into showbiz, and that time Greg Daniels jumped out of a window.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
My name is Phyllis Smith, and I played Phillis Lap
and Vance. Hello everybody, and welcome back, one and all
to the Office Deep Dive. I am your host, Brian Baumgartner,
and I am so excited to present to you my
(00:29):
interview with Phyllis Smith and guys. This episode is truly
one of my favorites ever, not only because Phillis is
obviously wonderful, but because I finally finally got to have
my Oprah moment. Now here's what happened. As some of
(00:49):
you may know, Phillis did not start out as an actor. No,
Phillis was actually Alison's casting associate on the Office, but
she was just so perfect that Greg Daniels and Ken
Koppa decided to cast her, and obviously she went on
to be an incredible part of our ensemble. So Phillis
and Allison had worked together many years, become very very
(01:10):
close friends. But they don't get to see each other
very often these days. So when I was going to
be interviewing Phillis, I said to Alison, Hey, Alison, why
don't you come in. You guys can talk about casting,
and then I can talk with Phillis about you know,
her progression through the show. And but let's surprise her.
Don't tell Phillis that you're going to be there, and
(01:33):
as you will hear right now. It was just the
best moment. So um oh, I'm so excited. Let's roll
the tape. Bubble and Squeak. I love it. Bubble and
Squeak and Bubble and Squeaker Cookie every month, lift over
(01:56):
from the night before. I'm so excited for Phillis to
come in and see you. She's out there. She just
doesn't know that you're here. Are we good? Okay, she's
(02:19):
gonna walk through that door. I love this, skinny Phillis.
What's the surprised? How are you so good to see you? Oh?
(02:56):
My goodness, ill Hello, asked her? Most everything? Yeah, no,
ask her. So I just this is just to tell
you what's going on. So I had my thing. I've
(03:18):
interviewed Allison, We've talked about casting the entire show. But
I said to her, let's let's leave off Phillis, because
I wanted you to come in and you guys to
be able to have a conversation together. So how when
did you guys meet? Oh? God, okay, the first pilot
we worked on together was called was at those offices
(03:40):
across from Universal, and we cast James Franco and Ben
Foster in a really bad sitcom. We were in the trailer. Oh,
we were in the trailer that we were in the
trailer first on NBC's lot, that's right, And that was
um because Jessica Walter screamed at her agent for sending
her to the wrong place and we were like hiding
behind at the desk like, oh my god, We're like,
(04:03):
what's going on? Um? But yeah, it was an in
terrible trailer and it was during like El Nino, and
our trailer everything was soaked. Everything was soaked. They had
terrible rain that re leaks. And from my point of view,
I had been working with Alan Hackford and the day
that was my last day with him on we went
(04:26):
across the hall to say goodbye, and that when um
whose office? They said, oh, Allison John Yeah? And I said,
do you know if anybody's looking for a casting and
associate and they said, oh, yeah, Allison Jones to it.
And so then I contacted you and then I had
an interview on Monday, and you started me on Wednesday, Yes, right,
(04:48):
right right? And I remember Steve Jacobs was another casting director,
said if you want someone to whip you into shape
higher this gal nod he what so what years? Probably
because then we went on to do some like Freaks
and Geeks. We did other Yeah, but before that we
(05:10):
did Roswell, which was lacious. We call our we called
at the lowest point of both of our lives. It
was just delicious because it was for a network that
needed beautiful people. I told you that's where Heath Ledger
wasn't good looking enough for Fox right and Ian Summer
remember Ian Summer Holder yelled at me because yes, we
(05:30):
were shocked. You got yelled at for reading too fast
with the actor in the room, and I felt terrible,
but yeah, he yelled at me right after they so, yeah,
I've never done that. Yeah, I should try that. The
job not like traumatized me. So I tried to slow
it down after that. So you worked together from through
(05:55):
two thousand three the whole time. Still worked through the
first episodes of the Office. Didn't work till the mid
second season, right, because you guys weren't getting paid anything, right,
and I we didn't know if we were getting a
pickup r Yeah, So I remained in casting Kate remained
working in the restaurant. Yeah, so we all just held on.
(06:19):
So what did you What did you do in casting
for like, were you primarily reading or were you I um,
Alison would give me her ideas and we'd go through.
At that time and casting we used to get real
pictures and resumes were stacked full, so I had to
(06:43):
separate all those in two different you know, and whatever
Allison wanted me to do, I did it and set
up the appointments. Make sure. Trying to confirm actors. You
were a tough one though, because you would say, you
have to call me back and confirm that the confirmation
is actually real. Yeah, not just I remember that one
time we had that one kid that we had given
(07:07):
out an appointment and it was for um, a bad movie.
It was a movie that did and it was with
Creative or you so big agency. I don't remember the agency.
But he I had given out all the appointments, waited
approximately a week or so to confirm. Finally I hadn't
(07:28):
heard anything. So I called and he still hadn't given
the appointments out and the session was like, you know,
a couple of days away. So what I did is
I proceeded to call the managers of everybody, and all
of a sudden, this kid calls me and he goes,
what do you think you're doing? And uh, I said, well,
I'm doing the work that you should have been doing. Yes,
(07:51):
And he goes, how dare you? And I said, well,
you know what, let me tell you something I said.
When I call you, you say hello, because he was
so be fuddled. When I give you the information, you
call me back with a confirmation, and when we go
to hang up, you say goodbye. You just don't drop
the phone. And you remember I was yelling at this point.
(08:13):
I came around at Allison, standing this, because who are
you talking to you? Um? So you did casting for
nineteen years? Yes? Is that right? Approximately? So someone found
this quote that you said for nineteen years. That's what
I did. I examined the character, the truth of it,
(08:37):
and I think that I didn't know it at the time,
but I was learning. I don't remember saying that. Does
that sound right? Well? What I have said in various
interviews is that I was probably honing a craft that
I didn't know I was honing. I was never in
the forefront of my mind, and I can honestly say,
(08:59):
I never thought that I would be an actor. You know.
It was never something I went, Oh, I wonder if
there's a role for me. At one point I was
trying to get into commercials and and like acting commercials,
and then life changed and I ended up. Well, you
(09:22):
know how I got into casting, right? Do you know
that HOWE into casting? I don't know that. Well. I
was working as a receptionist in an aerospace defense company
in Sherman Oaks. A friend of mine called, who had
worked for Stuart Stu Billet Productions on a court show
and they said, phillis they need a mousey woman for
a court show? And I said, oh, man, I didn't
(09:48):
want to. I wasn't actively auditioning or going out. I
was being a receptionist and I had one hour for lunch.
I had to go over the hill to do this audition,
and in process. At this time, this was the olden days,
we wore nylons and I went to the bathroom and
as I was pulling them up, I ripped a huge
(10:10):
hole night my entire knee was out of my my
n So I walked into the audition and I said,
excuse me, are you looking for mousey or lifted up
my skirt or tacky, and so we ended up in
a conversation and and I wasn't mousey enough to be
a mousey woman. Shocking. But in the course of the conversation,
(10:33):
I said, you know, I think I might be good
in casting. And about a year later she called me,
and that's how I ended up. And I was at
the lowest. I mean, I had to do everything, everything
that nobody else wanted to do. I was there doing
what it was this like three hundred a week or
(10:55):
my first job was two d fifty bucks a week
and I was thrilled, but it would have been about
three what would yours have been probably in late eighties. Yeah,
so I was a little bit earlier, but two and
fifty bucks a week was huge. Yea. So that's how
I ended up in the casting and then it just
now it's a thing people want to do. Shockingly, we
(11:18):
just sort of ended up in it. Um, did you
feel the casting process of of casting The Office was
was different than any other show that you had done before.
I think it was because the the material was so
different from the other the other shows. It was a
give and take and it was then Joe, you know,
(11:41):
and this was completely a different style. Would say, if
you think you're doing too little, you're still doing too much, right,
because we had every direction to give everybody, everybody pull
it down. Yeah, I have the original audition I have
for stand uh Leslie in my office. I left the
(12:02):
camera running by mistake, and it shows me explaining the
genre of the show and how it's going to be
a fake documentary. And I think you walked by in
the background, by the way, and I'm you know, just
saying and there's poor poor Leslie going m h. And
I was just kept repeating, it's less is more, it's
it has to feel like it's a documentary like in
(12:23):
the British show. Blah blah blah blah. But that was
what we stressed. Was there anyone? Was there someone that
you remember fighting for that was cast or wasn't cast?
Better you were in the rooms because you were reading
with these actors, so you you had a better feel
for it. But you read with them. I read them
(12:43):
with them until Ken Koppus came up to me and said,
could you let Phillis read because I think she'd be
good in the show. I didn't know any of them
saying the same thing. I mean, she got it because
Ken thought she was good. But he she said, let
Phillis read. Oh my god, that's a great idea. Um.
So Phillis then went in and started reading with all
the actors and she was remember being scared. Though I'm
(13:04):
sure you were scared because I didn't want to screw
it up. I didn't know he was auditioning. Yeah, yeah,
but I was frightened because I wanted to do a
good job for the actors. And I read with Rain
and then another time I read with Kruzinski, and I
remember when when I read with him, I thought, oh,
that's that's the one. It just felt right. I remember
(13:29):
remember John sitting out in the reception area and he
had you had put him on tape, like the first
day he was put on tape in New York. I
remember we had the same man's Jake cru sweater on.
I remember thinking, oh, I hope he doesn't notice this
(13:49):
was brown, mind was green, so funny. Yeah, well, they
were all sitting there and then the second day he
didn't get called back either way, and he just was
like very nervous. And he later had told me he
thought it was because he didn't do well the first day,
(14:10):
and in reality it was the reverse that I think
he had already already made an impression. And and and
I remember BJ sitting out there just he looked like
he was petrified. Yeah he I don't I didn't know him.
I didn't know his personality, you know. Now that's just
the way he looks, I know, But at the time
(14:32):
he looked like and he didn't engage with people, he
didn't talk or what's got put him? You know? But
then I realized that was part of his My big
fear in all the casting situations when you mix and matches,
Oh my god, how bad are they going to feel
if they don't get called back in? I hate that.
And then Steve, Steve came in day two because he
(14:54):
because he was still whatever it was, he was still
hooked into the other NBC shows, they let him come
in on the second day. What was your impression of Steve?
I thought he was brilliant, you know, right off I
told him that I was for me, it was a
toss up because Odin Kirk was so cool. And so
then you said that when I was watching the tape
of Steve, who was the other guy that well, there
(15:15):
was there was also Paul if Tompkins and really good
people that were testing. But it came down to between
oden Kirk and Carroll. But it would have been a
different It would have been a different different Michael with
oden Kirk. But you had said to me that when
I was watching the monitor watching Steve's test, and I
was doubled over with laughter, and Gregg noticed that, Yeah, yeah,
(15:37):
you always thought that was because you yes, you're having
a hard time keeping it. Oh my god, yes, yeah,
that's awesome. What um, So you knew way before that
they were considering that that Ken was considering Phillis. Oh no,
like an hour before we were reading that day and said,
(15:58):
could you just switch you do the camera? You do
this lit Phillis reach And I was at the coffee
trying to make sure everything was at the coffee and
Kim came up and he said, Phillis, someone should read
the character of Pam today and I went okay. So
I thought, well, maybe one of the PAMs is going
(16:19):
to be late or I didn't know the why. And
then I was nervous because I didn't know that you knew,
and I was like concerned that I was going to
be doing something out of line for my job, you know,
So you knew all of that, and no one really
(16:39):
ever came to me. Wardrobe was actually the first one
who called and said, I understand you're playing the character
of Phillis, and I went, yes, I am. Um. So
you didn't get to tell her, not for years. No, no,
but you didn't. You didn't get to tell her that
she had been cast. I guess Wardrobe to I was
(17:01):
in on it and didn't tell her. Do you remember
the day that you came in, Yes, to our office, No,
to the producers session. We were over where we where
we shot the first Yeah, and um we had to
go from to get the actors. We had to go
about a block and a half within the building to
(17:23):
bring him back to the little where we were recording.
And so as a result, the session we were ran.
She ran the sessions on time. You didn't sit when
you went to Allison's. Yeah, you you went in. But
for some reason that day we were behind. We were
really behind. And I remember Leslie had another audition to
(17:48):
go to, so we said, go ahead, go to your
audition and come back. So he went to his audition.
He came back. He fought the traffic and he was
in a real premid when he came in and must have. Yeah,
and you remember when Greg jumped out the windows. Ex
was gonna say to you in a casting session, just
(18:13):
West Perkins was there and she yeah, we were. Was
it at the beginning before the lunch hour or it was,
but it was we were had all had to sit
at a conference table in that the room that you
didn't have to go into when you read you didn't see,
but that's where we cast everybody else. And now there
was and all of a sudden, Greg just gets up
(18:35):
and jumps out this window, opened the window and jumped
out the window, and unfortunately the window was close to
the ground. Yeah. And then Nancy Perkins, in a thick
Boston accent, said said, oh my god, I've heard of
produces wanting to jump out the window before, but he
just did it. Yeah, we all just looked. He had
(18:56):
to get a sweater in his car something. I don't
know why he did it, but it was funny. We
just looked at each other. He also used to graph
the qualities of actors. Um he had a graph and
he would like put what he needed and what he saw,
and he would literally graph the qualities of actors. He
has a I may have that he had a very
(19:17):
scientific mind, uh when it came to things like that,
and that of course drove me nuts. But he would
always say that he was less instinct and more thinking,
you know, thinking about it. Who would you put with this?
And who would you who would go with that? If
you had these two people, who would be this person?
He thought about it very carefully and it certainly worked
on the office. But jumping out the window, you and
(19:40):
I were very fancy. She was, oh my god, he
jumped out the window. And now we know that's kind
of normal, but it was terrific. Produces one to jump
out the window before. But well, I, it's interesting because
(20:03):
of you talking about that on the casting side, because
what we've been told by some of the writers was
one of the exercises that they did. They called them
unlikely duos or something like that, and everyone's name would
be on the wall, right, so Kevin and Phillis and
Michael and Dwight and and one of their exercises was
take two characters that you wouldn't put together, and let's
(20:28):
put them together and then have some story about that interesting. Yeah,
but it's interesting on from the casting perspective, from the beginning,
wanting to he does that's at least how he did
it with the office. Yeah, he would ask everybody, you know,
would you rather have this person or this person? And
then if you have this person, would you have have
(20:49):
this person or this person? But he was a very
um pensive and thoughtful person that way. And those are
the like the people that we've had the privileged to
work for, Mitch Herwitz and Judd Apatow and Paul Feige.
They do think about things in a different way to
make the whole greater than the sum of its parts.
They all have strange ways and interesting ways of thinking.
(21:12):
I call it comedy. Aspergers, Sorry, yea, he was great.
Why do you think the two of you worked so
well together? Kind of laid back and we enjoyed it, right,
We had a lot of laughs. And I truly I'm
(21:35):
not just saying this because she's sitting here. She can
remember every actor that not only opened their mouth to her,
but walked and you know, just walk through the room
she has and she was never afraid to go out
and find new talent. She just had an eye she
had an eye for somebody that was unique and different,
(21:57):
and so did you though I just a little anecdote.
We cast a show called spin City when it was
it was a spin City or Battery Park that you
meant to go sitting. When she was six, We're at
Radford and Phillis was reading kids for a one line
role on a Christmas episode or something, and Phillis said, Allison,
I read this girl, but come on in and we'll
read her again, because you've never seen anything like this.
(22:19):
And it was six year old Da Code of Fanning
reading one line about being an orphan or something, and
Phillis literally was like, I've never seen anything like it.
She was wondering. She was amazing. So Dakoda Fanning and
Childa both go down for me as the best child
actors I've ever seen. Wow. Um, when you guys walked
in and you saw each other, what is it about
(22:42):
the history between you two that I feel so special?
We just love you. We just love each other. And
she's hilarious and we had a lot of good laughs.
We did. We yeah, a lot of good Yeah. We
enjoyed it and love actors and basically a great just
a great like ultimately, who cares, So let's just have fun. Yeah. Well,
(23:07):
she's a dear person and we worked together for a
long time and she always knew my sisters and stuff,
my brothers. Yeah. Yeah, when we come back, we're gonna
kick Alison out, and Phillis and I we're gonna sit
down for a chat together. Hi. Phil Hi can that's
(23:42):
what you've been in my life for so long? Bri?
I know, well, um, yeah, so we sort of talked
about Um. I think it's fascinating that you were casting
all of these shows and never had a thought. I truly,
I can honestly say that that was not I thought
that ship had sailed and so, um, I don't know,
(24:05):
it's just meant to be, and it's changed my life completely. Yeah,
completely in a good way. You know. Did you have
any training? No? No, I I'm Alan Hockberg, who I
worked for on Dr Quinn Medicine Woman. I worked with
(24:27):
him for about six years, six or seven years, and
he actually taught me how to hold the parricides and
read with an actor, and and so he was instrumental
in helping me to learn how to read with an
actor and treat an actor and and then when Alison,
(24:47):
she was another person who really a lot of casting
directors did not get involved when they read with actors,
as you know, but Allison really gave her all when
she read with people. So again being in the room
and watching her interact with the actor and watching the
actors um it just I don't know, Well, it's it's
(25:13):
funny because I've heard of people. I never did this,
but I've heard of actors who will find an in
with a casting director to be the person who reads
with Yeah. There used to happen all the time, right,
because they wanted to see, you know, actors performances and
be privy to the conversations about why that person got
cast and that person got cast. It always seemed like
(25:35):
kind of a smart thing, you know, to be able
to go in and hear what people were talking about
or what they were responding to, or you as an
actor learning tips from that. And it's so fascinating that
you were doing that for nineteen years but I didn't.
But you weren't even trying it just it just came in, right.
It wasn't. My job at that time was to do
(25:56):
the best that I could for the actor to get
the job. Are to cipher out who shouldn't be there
and who should be there, you know, but it turned
out okay, okay, um, so you got a call from wardrobe.
So at this point you have no idea. I just
(26:16):
thought it was odd that day that Ken came to me.
I really felt nervous because I didn't want to step
on Allison's toes um. I think there was a fact
that came through the head the character of phyllis there,
but we didn't. I didn't want to even believe that
it was going to be a possibility. And as soon
as wardrobe calls, then I because nobody ever came human,
(26:39):
said hey, do you want to be in the show?
Do you never really auditioned? No, I guess I auditioned,
but didn't know I was auditioning, which is another thank you,
because I would have been completely if I was nervous
enough wanting to do a good job for the people
I was reading with, had I known he was actually
(27:03):
watching me. But you know what, they did use a
tape of my reading at the network. One of the
tapes that they presented I was reading was someone so
it was covered in the long run, But I didn't
know any of that at the time. That is so amazing.
I think that is like the best story ever. I
(27:23):
think some actors think, you know, not our group of people.
But I run across other people sometime and they if
they hear this story, they go, oh, you know, they're
kind of a little bit like, well, look I studied it,
blah blah blah, and so they're not too thrilled with it. Right. Well,
(27:45):
I think it speaks to what you know, the producers
and and Greg and Ben and and and and Ricky
and Stephen were looking for in in this that they
were really looking for normal people or people not known
faces in any way, shape or form, and just people
(28:07):
that go to an office. You know. Yeah, um, I
think that potentially Phyllis and Kevin were the butt of
a lot of jokes. We were, We were definitely the
butt of a lot of maybe not all, but a lot. Um.
Did you did I take a fence to that or anything?
(28:29):
You know? Uh? I have to say though, when they
wanted me to carry Angela on my back in the
finale that I thought, Okay, that's a little much. First
of all, physically, I'm not wasn't sure how it was
going to play out, But then they took care of
it and at all, you know, with with the stunts
(28:52):
and boards and stuff like that. And then I actually
carried her like once or twice down the aisle, but
but that was just a tinge to my feeling. Well
that's a little bit over there. Yeah, I certainly had
some of those things as well. I think that my
I was told at some point, I think it was
(29:14):
it was either season seven or season eight. We were
talking about going forward without Steve, and I was talking
to some of the higher ups and they said, well,
we can't lose Kevin because now that Michael's gone, we
have nobody else to do really really stupid things. So
like that's what they were, because I started doing a
(29:36):
ton of the physical stuff to it. There was oil
in the warehouse and slipping around and doing all this stuff.
And I remember and like rain on my back on
the filing cabinet, like giving me a massage. And there
were a few times I went to them and I
was like, Okay, guys, I am not a cartoon character.
There are physical limitations to what I can do, so
(29:57):
you can't just write anything. They go, oh, well, yeah,
he can do that, of course. Yeah. I was always
grateful to get a line. That would be like that.
You know, you get a script and you start thumbing
through it as say, oh wow, I've got three four.
So yeah, I was. I was grateful to get a line.
(30:18):
Did you communicate much with the writers about I never did.
I didn't know I was had. I didn't know that
that if that was permissible. I hadn't been in those
shoes before as an as an actor. So whatever they
gave me, I I was glad I got. You know,
(30:42):
I was more unhappy when I didn't get something than
than what I did get. Right. Do you feel like
there were things specific to you that influenced the character
of Phyllis? Um? Golly, I think well with my per
so now I sometimes like off, can I can be sarcastic,
(31:06):
you know, in a sweet way, And so I must
have done that to somebody somewhere along the line and
they kind of picked up on it. Um I was.
I don't know. I never Are these the questions I
should be asking when I have a character. No, I
mean I think, I mean, as it creating a character,
(31:28):
this is no. I think it's more you know, for me,
I'm just wondering because I don't know, the answer is
like did you have you know, whether you saw something
in yourself that sort of came through. I just tried
to do it from my gut because I didn't have
anything else to work from. So if I got the line,
(31:51):
I would try to deliver it a couple of different
ways with a different feeling. And um, I, like I said,
I never really thought of like a backstory for Phyllis.
I never had that knowledge to do that are the
tools to do that. I just went from my gut
and she just and however people perceived her, then all
(32:14):
of a sudden, that's what she'd be given. And like
I always loved my interactions with Michael because we were
so competitive in high school and you know, right, But
then I think another significant would be Angela. Oh yeah,
that was a perfect you know the fact that I
(32:37):
was so much larger than she was, but she tried
to rule me. Uh and I completely what is the word? Yeah,
We asked to to what she wanted until I got
to the point that I couldn't stand her, you know,
And that's kind of way I do in life. I take, take, take,
and then all of a sudden I'd blow up so
(32:58):
so so it is like, yes, it is like, yeah, look,
it took all that time to get to that point. Um.
But luckily for Phillis you walked in on Angela and Twite.
Oh yeah, yes, which shifted the whole balance of power.
I I was the one in in charge then all right, right,
(33:22):
that must have been fun. Was the best, Like when
I swooped everything off the desk that was in Nobody
told me to do that, I just did it. Yeah.
I enjoyed the arc of Angela being the my nemesis
to my becoming her nemesis. Right right. I didn't think
(33:48):
about it like that before. About right, that's exactly what happened.
Do you have any favorite episodes? There's so many though
that I mean, there's moments I think I've talked about
one before where Dwighton and Michael they bumped chest and
they go, we did it, and then they go, what
we do? I don't know. It's just a stupid little
(34:10):
but it kind of like encapsulates the the whole feeling
of the office is like they're doing something and then
what we do? You know, m favorite episodes that I've
you know, when of course my wedding and I love
the scene that you and I did together when I
was in charge of trying and you came in you
(34:33):
wanted money. That was really one of the first scenes
that I ever had one on one with you, and
it felt really real. I enjoyed iron I think I
said something to you that day after the scene. Yeah,
for me, whoever we were paired off with on that
(34:53):
particular day or episode or whatever, it was generally exciting. Yeah,
A good A good deal. I love the episode where
Dwight kind of I hurt my back at the disco
and he takes and treats me as if I'm a
farm animal. Do you remember not I mean, not necessarily
(35:38):
where you were or what, but hearing that that Steve
was going to leave, Oh man, that was the It
was like somebody punched you in the stomach, you know. Um.
I remember just being very sad about it, right because
(36:01):
I I liked him so much as a person, I
respected him so much as an actor. I I thought
he had brought so much heart to the to the office,
to the show, and I was really nervous about how
that void was going to be filled, not only, you know,
(36:22):
as his acting abilities, but also as a He was
just a good guy. Yeah, I remember feeling way more
emotional about him leaving than even the end of the show, really,
I think because I felt like, you know, like a
(36:44):
kid when mom and dad leaves or something. It's like, well, now,
now what. And there's actually one of the I think
one of my personal favorite lines was when he proposed
it to Holly and the rains coming down and we're
getting soaked by all the sprinklers and he says we're
going to Colorado, and Kevin says all of us, And
(37:06):
there was just something so sort of beautiful about that,
and then the realization that no, no, no, he was
he was leaving. Yeah. You know when you you talked
about when the show ended in after the ninth season,
that was a tough tough night, especially when Creed started singing.
(37:29):
But for me, it was really tough, like months later
after the show had ended and we generally would go
back to work around July or August, that's when it
set in that, oh, this is life's different now, you know,
we're not going back. Yeah. When I sat down with
(37:52):
Greg before that last season or moving into the finale
and we started talking about, you know, my life's journey
that point through the office and Kevin, and my experience
was um people feeling like they knew me and specifically
feeling like I was the guy that they wanted to
get a drink with, and I would. I said something
(38:13):
to him like Greg, I can't go into a bar
without getting bought multiple drinks. Like they just come to
the point I say, and I'm good, No, thank you, no,
I'm good. Now, I gotta I gotta stop now. Guys,
at least people that call you Kevin you know that
(38:34):
they know you from this show. You me when people
say Phyllis, I have to think for a moment, Okay,
do I have our paths crossed? For a moment, do
I know you? Or But in reality I do know
them or they know me because I've been in their bedroom,
in their living room, in their kitchen, and before they
(38:55):
go to work and as they go to sleep, and
so we are apart of our fans lives. You know, absolutely,
But at least you can decipher yours a little better
with Kevin and than Brian. That's true. I've never thought
about that before Phyllis or Creed or Oscar or Angela. Yeah,
(39:17):
and especially if they say, oh I saw you, and
I'm thinking Okay, now did I you know, did I
go to school with them or what? Right? That's actually
the most difficult. Well, I have two difficult fan interactions.
One is I'll be at a at a serious place
(39:39):
of business, like like in a thing, and I'm meeting someone.
Or I have a good friend who's introducing me to
a good friend who says like, oh, we've met before, right,
And I immediately go, no, I know we haven't, and
I know why you think before. But then to say that,
you become like I no, like I was on a
(40:03):
television show, you know, like so yeah, for me, I
love all the fan interaction I have. I really haven't
had an The hardest part for me is at a funeral.
That's really awkward. I've had it happened twice, and I
just have to say, you know, I'm here because of this,
(40:27):
not or if you're at a wedding, and because I
tend to forget, you know, I when I go to
a wedding, I go to a wedding because I like
the person. But other than that, I have no problem
with them coming up to me. No, I don't. Nobody
wants to buy me a drink. I don't drink but
(40:47):
I think it's the specific Yeah, and part it's the
specific character. Um do you remember, I mean you talked
a little bit about it. Cree the last song like that.
That that's the moment that you remember about the finale,
and like that. The whole finale was, you know, driving
(41:10):
out to that ranch out in the middle of nowhere,
and it was a total surprise to me. I didn't
know Steve was going to come back, and I was,
you know, just so thrilled to even seem out alone
having been the finale and that was the best to
have a full reunion for the finale. So you didn't
(41:33):
know until you saw him there. So I'm in the
middle of the night getting out of my car and
there he was, you know, and I'm going, oh my god,
it's so great. Yeah. I had no idea it was
coming back because they hid it in the script. It
was not in the script. I somehow knew the night before.
I don't remember. I don't remember how, but like literally
(41:54):
the night before or something like that. It was more
like don't you tell a soul? But and I don't
remember who told me whatever, But yeah, I remember it shocking.
What's in his line his talking head about the your
your children marrying each other well and just the that's
(42:21):
what she said. This is the first thing out of
his mouth, just so perfect. Um. And that's the thing
that people don't realize now, Like when you watch it
on Netflix. At the time, it was such a big
surprise because everyone was asking and everyone was saying, you no,
right because we assumed that it was no. But I
(42:41):
mean even him and gregged and then net work didn't know,
like nobody knew. Yeah. Um, now when you watch the show,
you know that not as much build up. Um. What
do you think it is about the show that makes
people respond so crazy to it? Now? Golly, I don't know.
(43:03):
People say, they'll come up and they say, I just
love your you know, they love this or they love that,
and they have a Dwight in their office, or they
have a Kevin in their office, or they have you know,
they have those people so they can relate in some
way to the various characters. Um. But it was just different,
(43:26):
you know. It took a bold step. And in today's world,
it's some of it may cross the lines. You know,
things are so politically correct nowadays. So uh, and little
kids look at that A six year old who was
asking as questions who they were so intelligent and informed
(43:51):
and and to me, six is a little young to
be involved in the show. But what do you think?
I don't know. I think it's just about the characters
and that it's it's a workplace comedy. But really it's
a family, right, A family. Yeah, we've we've we've become
(44:12):
enmeshed in each other's lives. Um, yeah, what was it
all about for you? Um? We became family over the
nine years. We didn't nobody really knew each other, but
(44:35):
we all grew up together in a nine year period
and uh, it was one of the best parts of
my life. Yeah, uh yeah, Phillis, thank you so much
(45:00):
for coming in. Thank you for thanking me. I love
you so much. I'm so honored to call myself your friend,
and we share something that will never ever go away.
(45:20):
I'm exactly. We're hard to heart. Yeah, well, it doesn't
doesn't get any better than her. Thank you, Phillis. Thank
(45:41):
you Allison Jones again for joining me, um, and thanks
to all of you once again for listening. Have a
stuppendous week this week. Let's have the best week ever
and I will see you next time for another installment
of the Office Deep Dive. The Office Deep Dive is
(46:08):
hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our
executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor
is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
(46:29):
my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
by Seth Olandsky.
My name is Phyllis Smith, and I played Phillis Lap
and Vance. Hello everybody, and welcome back, one and all
to the Office Deep Dive. I am your host, Brian Baumgartner,
and I am so excited to present to you my
(00:29):
interview with Phyllis Smith and guys. This episode is truly
one of my favorites ever, not only because Phillis is
obviously wonderful, but because I finally finally got to have
my Oprah moment. Now here's what happened. As some of
(00:49):
you may know, Phillis did not start out as an actor. No,
Phillis was actually Alison's casting associate on the Office, but
she was just so perfect that Greg Daniels and Ken
Koppa decided to cast her, and obviously she went on
to be an incredible part of our ensemble. So Phillis
and Allison had worked together many years, become very very
(01:10):
close friends. But they don't get to see each other
very often these days. So when I was going to
be interviewing Phillis, I said to Alison, Hey, Alison, why
don't you come in. You guys can talk about casting,
and then I can talk with Phillis about you know,
her progression through the show. And but let's surprise her.
Don't tell Phillis that you're going to be there, and
(01:33):
as you will hear right now. It was just the
best moment. So um oh, I'm so excited. Let's roll
the tape. Bubble and Squeak. I love it. Bubble and
Squeak and Bubble and Squeaker Cookie every month, lift over
(01:56):
from the night before. I'm so excited for Phillis to
come in and see you. She's out there. She just
doesn't know that you're here. Are we good? Okay, she's
(02:19):
gonna walk through that door. I love this, skinny Phillis.
What's the surprised? How are you so good to see you? Oh?
(02:56):
My goodness, ill Hello, asked her? Most everything? Yeah, no,
ask her. So I just this is just to tell
you what's going on. So I had my thing. I've
(03:18):
interviewed Allison, We've talked about casting the entire show. But
I said to her, let's let's leave off Phillis, because
I wanted you to come in and you guys to
be able to have a conversation together. So how when
did you guys meet? Oh? God, okay, the first pilot
we worked on together was called was at those offices
(03:40):
across from Universal, and we cast James Franco and Ben
Foster in a really bad sitcom. We were in the trailer. Oh,
we were in the trailer that we were in the
trailer first on NBC's lot, that's right, And that was
um because Jessica Walter screamed at her agent for sending
her to the wrong place and we were like hiding
behind at the desk like, oh my god, We're like,
(04:03):
what's going on? Um? But yeah, it was an in
terrible trailer and it was during like El Nino, and
our trailer everything was soaked. Everything was soaked. They had
terrible rain that re leaks. And from my point of view,
I had been working with Alan Hackford and the day
that was my last day with him on we went
(04:26):
across the hall to say goodbye, and that when um
whose office? They said, oh, Allison John Yeah? And I said,
do you know if anybody's looking for a casting and
associate and they said, oh, yeah, Allison Jones to it.
And so then I contacted you and then I had
an interview on Monday, and you started me on Wednesday, Yes, right,
(04:48):
right right? And I remember Steve Jacobs was another casting director,
said if you want someone to whip you into shape
higher this gal nod he what so what years? Probably
because then we went on to do some like Freaks
and Geeks. We did other Yeah, but before that we
(05:10):
did Roswell, which was lacious. We call our we called
at the lowest point of both of our lives. It
was just delicious because it was for a network that
needed beautiful people. I told you that's where Heath Ledger
wasn't good looking enough for Fox right and Ian Summer
remember Ian Summer Holder yelled at me because yes, we
(05:30):
were shocked. You got yelled at for reading too fast
with the actor in the room, and I felt terrible,
but yeah, he yelled at me right after they so, yeah,
I've never done that. Yeah, I should try that. The
job not like traumatized me. So I tried to slow
it down after that. So you worked together from through
(05:55):
two thousand three the whole time. Still worked through the
first episodes of the Office. Didn't work till the mid
second season, right, because you guys weren't getting paid anything, right,
and I we didn't know if we were getting a
pickup r Yeah, So I remained in casting Kate remained
working in the restaurant. Yeah, so we all just held on.
(06:19):
So what did you What did you do in casting
for like, were you primarily reading or were you I um,
Alison would give me her ideas and we'd go through.
At that time and casting we used to get real
pictures and resumes were stacked full, so I had to
(06:43):
separate all those in two different you know, and whatever
Allison wanted me to do, I did it and set
up the appointments. Make sure. Trying to confirm actors. You
were a tough one though, because you would say, you
have to call me back and confirm that the confirmation
is actually real. Yeah, not just I remember that one
time we had that one kid that we had given
(07:07):
out an appointment and it was for um, a bad movie.
It was a movie that did and it was with
Creative or you so big agency. I don't remember the agency.
But he I had given out all the appointments, waited
approximately a week or so to confirm. Finally I hadn't
(07:28):
heard anything. So I called and he still hadn't given
the appointments out and the session was like, you know,
a couple of days away. So what I did is
I proceeded to call the managers of everybody, and all
of a sudden, this kid calls me and he goes,
what do you think you're doing? And uh, I said, well,
I'm doing the work that you should have been doing. Yes,
(07:51):
And he goes, how dare you? And I said, well,
you know what, let me tell you something I said.
When I call you, you say hello, because he was
so be fuddled. When I give you the information, you
call me back with a confirmation, and when we go
to hang up, you say goodbye. You just don't drop
the phone. And you remember I was yelling at this point.
(08:13):
I came around at Allison, standing this, because who are
you talking to you? Um? So you did casting for
nineteen years? Yes? Is that right? Approximately? So someone found
this quote that you said for nineteen years. That's what
I did. I examined the character, the truth of it,
(08:37):
and I think that I didn't know it at the time,
but I was learning. I don't remember saying that. Does
that sound right? Well? What I have said in various
interviews is that I was probably honing a craft that
I didn't know I was honing. I was never in
the forefront of my mind, and I can honestly say,
(08:59):
I never thought that I would be an actor. You know.
It was never something I went, Oh, I wonder if
there's a role for me. At one point I was
trying to get into commercials and and like acting commercials,
and then life changed and I ended up. Well, you
(09:22):
know how I got into casting, right? Do you know
that HOWE into casting? I don't know that. Well. I
was working as a receptionist in an aerospace defense company
in Sherman Oaks. A friend of mine called, who had
worked for Stuart Stu Billet Productions on a court show
and they said, phillis they need a mousey woman for
a court show? And I said, oh, man, I didn't
(09:48):
want to. I wasn't actively auditioning or going out. I
was being a receptionist and I had one hour for lunch.
I had to go over the hill to do this audition,
and in process. At this time, this was the olden days,
we wore nylons and I went to the bathroom and
as I was pulling them up, I ripped a huge
(10:10):
hole night my entire knee was out of my my
n So I walked into the audition and I said,
excuse me, are you looking for mousey or lifted up
my skirt or tacky, and so we ended up in
a conversation and and I wasn't mousey enough to be
a mousey woman. Shocking. But in the course of the conversation,
(10:33):
I said, you know, I think I might be good
in casting. And about a year later she called me,
and that's how I ended up. And I was at
the lowest. I mean, I had to do everything, everything
that nobody else wanted to do. I was there doing
what it was this like three hundred a week or
(10:55):
my first job was two d fifty bucks a week
and I was thrilled, but it would have been about
three what would yours have been probably in late eighties. Yeah,
so I was a little bit earlier, but two and
fifty bucks a week was huge. Yea. So that's how
I ended up in the casting and then it just
now it's a thing people want to do. Shockingly, we
(11:18):
just sort of ended up in it. Um, did you
feel the casting process of of casting The Office was
was different than any other show that you had done before.
I think it was because the the material was so
different from the other the other shows. It was a
give and take and it was then Joe, you know,
(11:41):
and this was completely a different style. Would say, if
you think you're doing too little, you're still doing too much, right,
because we had every direction to give everybody, everybody pull
it down. Yeah, I have the original audition I have
for stand uh Leslie in my office. I left the
(12:02):
camera running by mistake, and it shows me explaining the
genre of the show and how it's going to be
a fake documentary. And I think you walked by in
the background, by the way, and I'm you know, just
saying and there's poor poor Leslie going m h. And
I was just kept repeating, it's less is more, it's
it has to feel like it's a documentary like in
(12:23):
the British show. Blah blah blah blah. But that was
what we stressed. Was there anyone? Was there someone that
you remember fighting for that was cast or wasn't cast?
Better you were in the rooms because you were reading
with these actors, so you you had a better feel
for it. But you read with them. I read them
(12:43):
with them until Ken Koppus came up to me and said,
could you let Phillis read because I think she'd be
good in the show. I didn't know any of them
saying the same thing. I mean, she got it because
Ken thought she was good. But he she said, let
Phillis read. Oh my god, that's a great idea. Um.
So Phillis then went in and started reading with all
the actors and she was remember being scared. Though I'm
(13:04):
sure you were scared because I didn't want to screw
it up. I didn't know he was auditioning. Yeah, yeah,
but I was frightened because I wanted to do a
good job for the actors. And I read with Rain
and then another time I read with Kruzinski, and I
remember when when I read with him, I thought, oh,
that's that's the one. It just felt right. I remember
(13:29):
remember John sitting out in the reception area and he
had you had put him on tape, like the first
day he was put on tape in New York. I
remember we had the same man's Jake cru sweater on.
I remember thinking, oh, I hope he doesn't notice this
(13:49):
was brown, mind was green, so funny. Yeah, well, they
were all sitting there and then the second day he
didn't get called back either way, and he just was
like very nervous. And he later had told me he
thought it was because he didn't do well the first day,
(14:10):
and in reality it was the reverse that I think
he had already already made an impression. And and and
I remember BJ sitting out there just he looked like
he was petrified. Yeah he I don't I didn't know him.
I didn't know his personality, you know. Now that's just
the way he looks, I know, But at the time
(14:32):
he looked like and he didn't engage with people, he
didn't talk or what's got put him? You know? But
then I realized that was part of his My big
fear in all the casting situations when you mix and matches,
Oh my god, how bad are they going to feel
if they don't get called back in? I hate that.
And then Steve, Steve came in day two because he
(14:54):
because he was still whatever it was, he was still
hooked into the other NBC shows, they let him come
in on the second day. What was your impression of Steve?
I thought he was brilliant, you know, right off I
told him that I was for me, it was a
toss up because Odin Kirk was so cool. And so
then you said that when I was watching the tape
of Steve, who was the other guy that well, there
(15:15):
was there was also Paul if Tompkins and really good
people that were testing. But it came down to between
oden Kirk and Carroll. But it would have been a
different It would have been a different different Michael with
oden Kirk. But you had said to me that when
I was watching the monitor watching Steve's test, and I
was doubled over with laughter, and Gregg noticed that, Yeah, yeah,
(15:37):
you always thought that was because you yes, you're having
a hard time keeping it. Oh my god, yes, yeah,
that's awesome. What um, So you knew way before that
they were considering that that Ken was considering Phillis. Oh no,
like an hour before we were reading that day and said,
(15:58):
could you just switch you do the camera? You do
this lit Phillis reach And I was at the coffee
trying to make sure everything was at the coffee and
Kim came up and he said, Phillis, someone should read
the character of Pam today and I went okay. So
I thought, well, maybe one of the PAMs is going
(16:19):
to be late or I didn't know the why. And
then I was nervous because I didn't know that you knew,
and I was like concerned that I was going to
be doing something out of line for my job, you know,
So you knew all of that, and no one really
(16:39):
ever came to me. Wardrobe was actually the first one
who called and said, I understand you're playing the character
of Phillis, and I went, yes, I am. Um. So
you didn't get to tell her, not for years. No, no,
but you didn't. You didn't get to tell her that
she had been cast. I guess Wardrobe to I was
(17:01):
in on it and didn't tell her. Do you remember
the day that you came in, Yes, to our office, No,
to the producers session. We were over where we where
we shot the first Yeah, and um we had to
go from to get the actors. We had to go
about a block and a half within the building to
(17:23):
bring him back to the little where we were recording.
And so as a result, the session we were ran.
She ran the sessions on time. You didn't sit when
you went to Allison's. Yeah, you you went in. But
for some reason that day we were behind. We were
really behind. And I remember Leslie had another audition to
(17:48):
go to, so we said, go ahead, go to your
audition and come back. So he went to his audition.
He came back. He fought the traffic and he was
in a real premid when he came in and must have. Yeah,
and you remember when Greg jumped out the windows. Ex
was gonna say to you in a casting session, just
(18:13):
West Perkins was there and she yeah, we were. Was
it at the beginning before the lunch hour or it was,
but it was we were had all had to sit
at a conference table in that the room that you
didn't have to go into when you read you didn't see,
but that's where we cast everybody else. And now there
was and all of a sudden, Greg just gets up
(18:35):
and jumps out this window, opened the window and jumped
out the window, and unfortunately the window was close to
the ground. Yeah. And then Nancy Perkins, in a thick
Boston accent, said said, oh my god, I've heard of
produces wanting to jump out the window before, but he
just did it. Yeah, we all just looked. He had
(18:56):
to get a sweater in his car something. I don't
know why he did it, but it was funny. We
just looked at each other. He also used to graph
the qualities of actors. Um he had a graph and
he would like put what he needed and what he saw,
and he would literally graph the qualities of actors. He
has a I may have that he had a very
(19:17):
scientific mind, uh when it came to things like that,
and that of course drove me nuts. But he would
always say that he was less instinct and more thinking,
you know, thinking about it. Who would you put with this?
And who would you who would go with that? If
you had these two people, who would be this person?
He thought about it very carefully and it certainly worked
on the office. But jumping out the window, you and
(19:40):
I were very fancy. She was, oh my god, he
jumped out the window. And now we know that's kind
of normal, but it was terrific. Produces one to jump
out the window before. But well, I, it's interesting because
(20:03):
of you talking about that on the casting side, because
what we've been told by some of the writers was
one of the exercises that they did. They called them
unlikely duos or something like that, and everyone's name would
be on the wall, right, so Kevin and Phillis and
Michael and Dwight and and one of their exercises was
take two characters that you wouldn't put together, and let's
(20:28):
put them together and then have some story about that interesting. Yeah,
but it's interesting on from the casting perspective, from the beginning,
wanting to he does that's at least how he did
it with the office. Yeah, he would ask everybody, you know,
would you rather have this person or this person? And
then if you have this person, would you have have
(20:49):
this person or this person? But he was a very
um pensive and thoughtful person that way. And those are
the like the people that we've had the privileged to
work for, Mitch Herwitz and Judd Apatow and Paul Feige.
They do think about things in a different way to
make the whole greater than the sum of its parts.
They all have strange ways and interesting ways of thinking.
(21:12):
I call it comedy. Aspergers, Sorry, yea, he was great.
Why do you think the two of you worked so
well together? Kind of laid back and we enjoyed it, right,
We had a lot of laughs. And I truly I'm
(21:35):
not just saying this because she's sitting here. She can
remember every actor that not only opened their mouth to her,
but walked and you know, just walk through the room
she has and she was never afraid to go out
and find new talent. She just had an eye she
had an eye for somebody that was unique and different,
(21:57):
and so did you though I just a little anecdote.
We cast a show called spin City when it was
it was a spin City or Battery Park that you
meant to go sitting. When she was six, We're at
Radford and Phillis was reading kids for a one line
role on a Christmas episode or something, and Phillis said, Allison,
I read this girl, but come on in and we'll
read her again, because you've never seen anything like this.
(22:19):
And it was six year old Da Code of Fanning
reading one line about being an orphan or something, and
Phillis literally was like, I've never seen anything like it.
She was wondering. She was amazing. So Dakoda Fanning and
Childa both go down for me as the best child
actors I've ever seen. Wow. Um, when you guys walked
in and you saw each other, what is it about
(22:42):
the history between you two that I feel so special?
We just love you. We just love each other. And
she's hilarious and we had a lot of good laughs.
We did. We yeah, a lot of good Yeah. We
enjoyed it and love actors and basically a great just
a great like ultimately, who cares, So let's just have fun. Yeah. Well,
(23:07):
she's a dear person and we worked together for a
long time and she always knew my sisters and stuff,
my brothers. Yeah. Yeah, when we come back, we're gonna
kick Alison out, and Phillis and I we're gonna sit
down for a chat together. Hi. Phil Hi can that's
(23:42):
what you've been in my life for so long? Bri?
I know, well, um, yeah, so we sort of talked
about Um. I think it's fascinating that you were casting
all of these shows and never had a thought. I truly,
I can honestly say that that was not I thought
that ship had sailed and so, um, I don't know,
(24:05):
it's just meant to be, and it's changed my life completely. Yeah,
completely in a good way. You know. Did you have
any training? No? No, I I'm Alan Hockberg, who I
worked for on Dr Quinn Medicine Woman. I worked with
(24:27):
him for about six years, six or seven years, and
he actually taught me how to hold the parricides and
read with an actor, and and so he was instrumental
in helping me to learn how to read with an
actor and treat an actor and and then when Alison,
(24:47):
she was another person who really a lot of casting
directors did not get involved when they read with actors,
as you know, but Allison really gave her all when
she read with people. So again being in the room
and watching her interact with the actor and watching the
actors um it just I don't know, Well, it's it's
(25:13):
funny because I've heard of people. I never did this,
but I've heard of actors who will find an in
with a casting director to be the person who reads
with Yeah. There used to happen all the time, right,
because they wanted to see, you know, actors performances and
be privy to the conversations about why that person got
cast and that person got cast. It always seemed like
(25:35):
kind of a smart thing, you know, to be able
to go in and hear what people were talking about
or what they were responding to, or you as an
actor learning tips from that. And it's so fascinating that
you were doing that for nineteen years but I didn't.
But you weren't even trying it just it just came in, right.
It wasn't. My job at that time was to do
(25:56):
the best that I could for the actor to get
the job. Are to cipher out who shouldn't be there
and who should be there, you know, but it turned
out okay, okay, um, so you got a call from wardrobe.
So at this point you have no idea. I just
(26:16):
thought it was odd that day that Ken came to me.
I really felt nervous because I didn't want to step
on Allison's toes um. I think there was a fact
that came through the head the character of phyllis there,
but we didn't. I didn't want to even believe that
it was going to be a possibility. And as soon
as wardrobe calls, then I because nobody ever came human,
(26:39):
said hey, do you want to be in the show?
Do you never really auditioned? No, I guess I auditioned,
but didn't know I was auditioning, which is another thank you,
because I would have been completely if I was nervous
enough wanting to do a good job for the people
I was reading with, had I known he was actually
(27:03):
watching me. But you know what, they did use a
tape of my reading at the network. One of the
tapes that they presented I was reading was someone so
it was covered in the long run, But I didn't
know any of that at the time. That is so amazing.
I think that is like the best story ever. I
(27:23):
think some actors think, you know, not our group of people.
But I run across other people sometime and they if
they hear this story, they go, oh, you know, they're
kind of a little bit like, well, look I studied it,
blah blah blah, and so they're not too thrilled with it. Right. Well,
(27:45):
I think it speaks to what you know, the producers
and and Greg and Ben and and and and Ricky
and Stephen were looking for in in this that they
were really looking for normal people or people not known
faces in any way, shape or form, and just people
(28:07):
that go to an office. You know. Yeah, um, I
think that potentially Phyllis and Kevin were the butt of
a lot of jokes. We were, We were definitely the
butt of a lot of maybe not all, but a lot. Um.
Did you did I take a fence to that or anything?
(28:29):
You know? Uh? I have to say though, when they
wanted me to carry Angela on my back in the
finale that I thought, Okay, that's a little much. First
of all, physically, I'm not wasn't sure how it was
going to play out, But then they took care of
it and at all, you know, with with the stunts
(28:52):
and boards and stuff like that. And then I actually
carried her like once or twice down the aisle, but
but that was just a tinge to my feeling. Well
that's a little bit over there. Yeah, I certainly had
some of those things as well. I think that my
I was told at some point, I think it was
(29:14):
it was either season seven or season eight. We were
talking about going forward without Steve, and I was talking
to some of the higher ups and they said, well,
we can't lose Kevin because now that Michael's gone, we
have nobody else to do really really stupid things. So
like that's what they were, because I started doing a
(29:36):
ton of the physical stuff to it. There was oil
in the warehouse and slipping around and doing all this stuff.
And I remember and like rain on my back on
the filing cabinet, like giving me a massage. And there
were a few times I went to them and I
was like, Okay, guys, I am not a cartoon character.
There are physical limitations to what I can do, so
(29:57):
you can't just write anything. They go, oh, well, yeah,
he can do that, of course. Yeah. I was always
grateful to get a line. That would be like that.
You know, you get a script and you start thumbing
through it as say, oh wow, I've got three four.
So yeah, I was. I was grateful to get a line.
(30:18):
Did you communicate much with the writers about I never did.
I didn't know I was had. I didn't know that
that if that was permissible. I hadn't been in those
shoes before as an as an actor. So whatever they
gave me, I I was glad I got. You know,
(30:42):
I was more unhappy when I didn't get something than
than what I did get. Right. Do you feel like
there were things specific to you that influenced the character
of Phyllis? Um? Golly, I think well with my per
so now I sometimes like off, can I can be sarcastic,
(31:06):
you know, in a sweet way, And so I must
have done that to somebody somewhere along the line and
they kind of picked up on it. Um I was.
I don't know. I never Are these the questions I
should be asking when I have a character. No, I
mean I think, I mean, as it creating a character,
(31:28):
this is no. I think it's more you know, for me,
I'm just wondering because I don't know, the answer is
like did you have you know, whether you saw something
in yourself that sort of came through. I just tried
to do it from my gut because I didn't have
anything else to work from. So if I got the line,
(31:51):
I would try to deliver it a couple of different
ways with a different feeling. And um, I, like I said,
I never really thought of like a backstory for Phyllis.
I never had that knowledge to do that are the
tools to do that. I just went from my gut
and she just and however people perceived her, then all
(32:14):
of a sudden, that's what she'd be given. And like
I always loved my interactions with Michael because we were
so competitive in high school and you know, right, But
then I think another significant would be Angela. Oh yeah,
that was a perfect you know the fact that I
(32:37):
was so much larger than she was, but she tried
to rule me. Uh and I completely what is the word? Yeah,
We asked to to what she wanted until I got
to the point that I couldn't stand her, you know,
And that's kind of way I do in life. I take, take, take,
and then all of a sudden I'd blow up so
(32:58):
so so it is like, yes, it is like, yeah, look,
it took all that time to get to that point. Um.
But luckily for Phillis you walked in on Angela and Twite.
Oh yeah, yes, which shifted the whole balance of power.
I I was the one in in charge then all right, right,
(33:22):
that must have been fun. Was the best, Like when
I swooped everything off the desk that was in Nobody
told me to do that, I just did it. Yeah.
I enjoyed the arc of Angela being the my nemesis
to my becoming her nemesis. Right right. I didn't think
(33:48):
about it like that before. About right, that's exactly what happened.
Do you have any favorite episodes? There's so many though
that I mean, there's moments I think I've talked about
one before where Dwighton and Michael they bumped chest and
they go, we did it, and then they go, what
we do? I don't know. It's just a stupid little
(34:10):
but it kind of like encapsulates the the whole feeling
of the office is like they're doing something and then
what we do? You know, m favorite episodes that I've
you know, when of course my wedding and I love
the scene that you and I did together when I
was in charge of trying and you came in you
(34:33):
wanted money. That was really one of the first scenes
that I ever had one on one with you, and
it felt really real. I enjoyed iron I think I
said something to you that day after the scene. Yeah,
for me, whoever we were paired off with on that
(34:53):
particular day or episode or whatever, it was generally exciting. Yeah,
A good A good deal. I love the episode where
Dwight kind of I hurt my back at the disco
and he takes and treats me as if I'm a
farm animal. Do you remember not I mean, not necessarily
(35:38):
where you were or what, but hearing that that Steve
was going to leave, Oh man, that was the It
was like somebody punched you in the stomach, you know. Um.
I remember just being very sad about it, right because
(36:01):
I I liked him so much as a person, I
respected him so much as an actor. I I thought
he had brought so much heart to the to the office,
to the show, and I was really nervous about how
that void was going to be filled, not only, you know,
(36:22):
as his acting abilities, but also as a He was
just a good guy. Yeah, I remember feeling way more
emotional about him leaving than even the end of the show, really,
I think because I felt like, you know, like a
(36:44):
kid when mom and dad leaves or something. It's like, well, now,
now what. And there's actually one of the I think
one of my personal favorite lines was when he proposed
it to Holly and the rains coming down and we're
getting soaked by all the sprinklers and he says we're
going to Colorado, and Kevin says all of us, And
(37:06):
there was just something so sort of beautiful about that,
and then the realization that no, no, no, he was
he was leaving. Yeah. You know when you you talked
about when the show ended in after the ninth season,
that was a tough tough night, especially when Creed started singing.
(37:29):
But for me, it was really tough, like months later
after the show had ended and we generally would go
back to work around July or August, that's when it
set in that, oh, this is life's different now, you know,
we're not going back. Yeah. When I sat down with
(37:52):
Greg before that last season or moving into the finale
and we started talking about, you know, my life's journey
that point through the office and Kevin, and my experience
was um people feeling like they knew me and specifically
feeling like I was the guy that they wanted to
get a drink with, and I would. I said something
(38:13):
to him like Greg, I can't go into a bar
without getting bought multiple drinks. Like they just come to
the point I say, and I'm good, No, thank you, no,
I'm good. Now, I gotta I gotta stop now. Guys,
at least people that call you Kevin you know that
(38:34):
they know you from this show. You me when people
say Phyllis, I have to think for a moment, Okay,
do I have our paths crossed? For a moment, do
I know you? Or But in reality I do know
them or they know me because I've been in their bedroom,
in their living room, in their kitchen, and before they
(38:55):
go to work and as they go to sleep, and
so we are apart of our fans lives. You know, absolutely,
But at least you can decipher yours a little better
with Kevin and than Brian. That's true. I've never thought
about that before Phyllis or Creed or Oscar or Angela. Yeah,
(39:17):
and especially if they say, oh I saw you, and
I'm thinking Okay, now did I you know, did I
go to school with them or what? Right? That's actually
the most difficult. Well, I have two difficult fan interactions.
One is I'll be at a at a serious place
(39:39):
of business, like like in a thing, and I'm meeting someone.
Or I have a good friend who's introducing me to
a good friend who says like, oh, we've met before, right,
And I immediately go, no, I know we haven't, and
I know why you think before. But then to say that,
you become like I no, like I was on a
(40:03):
television show, you know, like so yeah, for me, I
love all the fan interaction I have. I really haven't
had an The hardest part for me is at a funeral.
That's really awkward. I've had it happened twice, and I
just have to say, you know, I'm here because of this,
(40:27):
not or if you're at a wedding, and because I
tend to forget, you know, I when I go to
a wedding, I go to a wedding because I like
the person. But other than that, I have no problem
with them coming up to me. No, I don't. Nobody
wants to buy me a drink. I don't drink but
(40:47):
I think it's the specific Yeah, and part it's the
specific character. Um do you remember, I mean you talked
a little bit about it. Cree the last song like that.
That that's the moment that you remember about the finale,
and like that. The whole finale was, you know, driving
(41:10):
out to that ranch out in the middle of nowhere,
and it was a total surprise to me. I didn't
know Steve was going to come back, and I was,
you know, just so thrilled to even seem out alone
having been the finale and that was the best to
have a full reunion for the finale. So you didn't
(41:33):
know until you saw him there. So I'm in the
middle of the night getting out of my car and
there he was, you know, and I'm going, oh my god,
it's so great. Yeah. I had no idea it was
coming back because they hid it in the script. It
was not in the script. I somehow knew the night before.
I don't remember. I don't remember how, but like literally
(41:54):
the night before or something like that. It was more
like don't you tell a soul? But and I don't
remember who told me whatever, But yeah, I remember it shocking.
What's in his line his talking head about the your
your children marrying each other well and just the that's
(42:21):
what she said. This is the first thing out of
his mouth, just so perfect. Um. And that's the thing
that people don't realize now, Like when you watch it
on Netflix. At the time, it was such a big
surprise because everyone was asking and everyone was saying, you no,
right because we assumed that it was no. But I
(42:41):
mean even him and gregged and then net work didn't know,
like nobody knew. Yeah. Um, now when you watch the show,
you know that not as much build up. Um. What
do you think it is about the show that makes
people respond so crazy to it? Now? Golly, I don't know.
(43:03):
People say, they'll come up and they say, I just
love your you know, they love this or they love that,
and they have a Dwight in their office, or they
have a Kevin in their office, or they have you know,
they have those people so they can relate in some
way to the various characters. Um. But it was just different,
(43:26):
you know. It took a bold step. And in today's world,
it's some of it may cross the lines. You know,
things are so politically correct nowadays. So uh, and little
kids look at that A six year old who was
asking as questions who they were so intelligent and informed
(43:51):
and and to me, six is a little young to
be involved in the show. But what do you think?
I don't know. I think it's just about the characters
and that it's it's a workplace comedy. But really it's
a family, right, A family. Yeah, we've we've we've become
(44:12):
enmeshed in each other's lives. Um, yeah, what was it
all about for you? Um? We became family over the
nine years. We didn't nobody really knew each other, but
(44:35):
we all grew up together in a nine year period
and uh, it was one of the best parts of
my life. Yeah, uh yeah, Phillis, thank you so much
(45:00):
for coming in. Thank you for thanking me. I love
you so much. I'm so honored to call myself your friend,
and we share something that will never ever go away.
(45:20):
I'm exactly. We're hard to heart. Yeah, well, it doesn't
doesn't get any better than her. Thank you, Phillis. Thank
(45:41):
you Allison Jones again for joining me, um, and thanks
to all of you once again for listening. Have a
stuppendous week this week. Let's have the best week ever
and I will see you next time for another installment
of the Office Deep Dive. The Office Deep Dive is
(46:08):
hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our
executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor
is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
(46:29):
my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
by Seth Olandsky.
Host
Brian Baumgartner
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