Randall Einhorn

He’s an executive producer and director these days, but Brian knows him better as the director of photography on an old show called The Office. Randall Einhorn is back on the podcast to share stories about his life in the wilderness, moving from behind the camera to behind the cameraman, and turning teachers into heroes on Abbott Elementary.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I used to lead whitewater expeditions and somebody said you should,
you should start filming them, and I said, you mean,
like with a camera or something. All right, I'll try it.
I just wanted to go kayaking every day, and I
tried it, and I suppose I was okay at it.
And that's really what I tell you now that I'm
doing this, I really like it. I didn't plan on

(00:22):
any of this, but it's really fun. It is. It's fun. Hi.
My name is Randall Einhorn, and I am the executive
producer and director of the show Abbot Elementary. Hello everybody,

(00:45):
and welcome back to today's episode of Off the Beat.
This is your host, Brian Baumgartner. In a great mood
today because we have a very special guest, my old friend.
You know him, you love him, Randall Einhorn. He's a director,
he's an amazing cinematographer and as you know, he is
the guy who made the camera a character on the Office.

(01:10):
He made the show what it is, and that alone
makes him a legend. But it's no surprise that since
then he has worked on other huge shows Parks and Wreck,
Wilfred Fargo. It's always sunny in Philadelphia and most recently
Abbot Elementary. Since I had Randall on the office deep dive,

(01:32):
I've been wanting to get him back on off the
beat here and dive deeper into his whole career, all
of his work outside of the office, tracing the mockumentary
from the olden days of dunder Mifflin now to Abbot Elementary,
and will also answer some long awaited questions. What is
the future of network sitcoms? Is it okay that it's

(01:56):
always sunny? Has such unlikable characters? What is the real
power of the camera? Randall, He's seen it all, and
he's filmed at all and I can't wait for you
to hear our conversation. So, without further ad here's Randall Einhorn,

(02:18):
Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak, Bubble
and Squeaker cook at every month left over from the
Knob people. Hello, what's up, buddy? How you doing? Brother?

(02:44):
How are you? I'm very well. You know. I didn't
reach out to you because I wanted my love to
just seep into your soul. I love seeing you for
the first time in such a long time. You look good,
you too? Wow? How are you. I'm good. It's it's been.

(03:04):
It's been good. It's been a busy time, but fun. Well,
you're the busiest man in television, as best I can tell,
it's been. It's been busy. Abbot kept me busy. We didn't,
you know, work long days, but you know we did.
We finished twenty two episodes and I directed ten of them,
like an idiot. Okay. So then I just took a pilot,

(03:26):
as you do. Um, no rest for the Wicked I was.
You know, I was planning on taking some time off,
but I just fell in love with another pilot. So
I'm doing a pilot. But before that, I shoot the pilot.
I'm going to go to do the Grand Canyon again.
You are, Yeah, fourth time in five years, two hundred

(03:47):
and twenty five miles of rafting. Really good, beautiful play.
So I'll have you know, some some ramble time. Yes, Now,
when you go back to your your your roots, and
we'll talk about that in a minute. You go back
to the to the bush, to the brush. Do you
cut off from the world, like, do you leave cell

(04:07):
phones at home? No? I take it for photos, okay,
but I mean you're not checking email or no, No,
there's no means to do that. I have a SAT phone,
but you can get text messages. But I'm you know,
what are you gonna do? Tell me when to get back? Right?
What do you? Yeah? So do you take a SAT
phone in case, you know, you get injured in something?

(04:29):
That's that's what you do? Yeah, okay, Yeah, I've been
watching that show alone. Have you seen that show alone?
That's My friends show? Is it? Yeah? Yeah, I kind
of I've kind of gotten sucked in a little bit
to it, and I think it's more what would be
the show that I would be least likely to participate?

(04:50):
That would be it. That's probably it. Yeah, that's probably
watching people skinning, by the way, expertly skinning squirrels and
being so grateful for that squirrel. Have you ever have
you ever ate squirrel? Yeah? Eaten squirrel? You have? It's
so bad. It's better than rat. You haven't eaten rat?

(05:15):
You have? Yeah, survivor one. They were eating rats because
there are a lot of rats around, okay, and there
was a little bit just left on the grill and
maybe maybe I might may have tried it. But if
you had squirrel like my choice, Yeah, it was yummy.
It was great. Did you prepare the squirrel? No? I
did not. My neighbors did. Yeah. Okay, Uh, this is

(05:39):
where we start with, so we can do a whole
episode of things Randall has eaten. No, I know that
we could. Actually, that's that is the thing that I know. Um. Look,
we've had you on before, obviously, and really we talked
about the office. I am not joking when I say
I think your story is one of the most interesting

(06:03):
in all of the thing we call Hollywood. Talk to
me a little bit now. I know. Originally you're from
the Cincinnati area, which is where my father hails from.
For Thomas, Kentucky, since Entucky as they call it. Ye.
Did you have any interest in film filming when you

(06:24):
were a kid? No, none, whatsoever. I really didn't have
any interest in until I started doing it, you know,
until I started filming outdoor adventure stuff. Right. Yeah. I
used to lead whitewater expeditions and somebody said you should,
you should start filming them, and I said, you mean,
like with a camera or something, and all right, I'll

(06:45):
try it. I just wanted to go kayaking every day,
and I tried it, and I suppose I was okay
at it. And that's really but I tell you now
that I'm doing this, I really like it. I didn't
plan on any of this, but it's really fun. It is.
It's fun. It is so you were just like you
were just an outdoors men, like you just wanted outdoor adventure.

(07:08):
Could you have seen yourself just living that life for
your whole life? I still can, Ok, yeah, back pocket
In case the whole directing thing it doesn't work out,
I can go back to being a raft guide. Yeah. No,
I never. I never that was the plan. I just was.
I was guiding, and I was doing a lot of
kayaking and leading expeditions, and I figured that was what

(07:29):
I was going to do. I never saw myself getting
out of that. But you know, one thing led to
another and I got hired. I convinced Mark Burnett that
he should hire me to shoot the Whitewater sections of
Eco Challenge, which is a five hundred mile wilderness adventure race,
and he was foolish enough to hire me. And then
I convinced him he should hire me to be the

(07:51):
deep DP on Survivor one, and he did that, and
then all these years later, here I am. Yeah, and
you when you first started filming. Now, when you say
someone said you should film these things? Was this like
filming like for tourists, like just filming them going down
the river? Yep? Okay. I used to kayak ahead and

(08:14):
film film the tourists going down the rapids, and my
kayak on kayak down the next section of rapids. I
hop out and filmed the tourists and I'd sell them
photos and video. Okay. Yeah? And then how did you
get from there to convincing Burnett to hire you on
Eco Challenge? Like? What are the steps there? I was.

(08:34):
I was a sponsored whitewater kayaker and a lot a
bunch of kayaks, and a friend of mine was a
locations manager and he called me to ask if I
could help him find a river section for Eco Challenge
and got it. I had, like, you know, twenty kayaks,
and so Mark and I and my buddy the locations
manager went out and started searching for for river sections

(08:57):
to do with an Eco Challenge race. Yeah. And then
and then I think the interesting part is where I
came to the United States to after being away for
like twenty three years, and I was I was shooting
something for Ben Silverman. Yes, I was shooting Sean White
and Jeremy Jones in Jackson Hole right in Jacksonville, And

(09:19):
for some reason, you know, I was filming those guys
and Ben said, that's the guy who we need to
be the documentarian in the office. Like why he took
me from Jackson holl extreme skiing to that's the guy
we need, I don't know, but it worked out. So. Um. Yeah,
when that opportunity came up, were you all in Like

(09:42):
were you like, yes, I can do that. Yeah, I
do have this really foolish sense of bravada. Yes, okay, yeah,
you and I, You and I share that in some regards. Yeah, easy,
you can do it. Ye today, were you hesitant because
I mean, you're you're an outdoorsman, You're like doing, you know,

(10:05):
filming extreme sports and you're out there and you love
that stuff. Was there a part of you that was like,
well I could do it, but I think I'd rather
stay here Or were you did you see the path
changing for you and and and saw where that might lead? Um?
I was very aware of like, Okay, well now I'm
going to go from outside into an office and this

(10:27):
is not my happy place right Certainly I was aware
of that, But then I figured I could still go
to my happy place when I'm not working, which is
what I do now now. I go. I spend forty
to fifty sixty days a year doing outdoor stuff on
rivers and so forth. Yeah, but also also, you know,
I saw the pilot of the Office, and I thought,

(10:49):
that's that would be really fun to shoot to tell
jokes from the camera. I was very attracted to. Oh
so you saw the pilot. Yeah, would you saw the
pilot and you were like, Oh, I get this, I
can do this, or I can do this better. Yes, Yes,
that's very interesting. I don't think i'd heard that before. Wow. Yeah,

(11:12):
because I didn't do the pilot of the office, but
I remember Ben. You know, it's a really funny choice.
But I think for Ben to make is that I
can go extreme skiing with these these great, really talented athletes,
and that to think I could also do the office
for some reason, well, Ben is a crazy genius in
that way. I mean, let's be let's be clear. I

(11:32):
mean he's he sees things, you know. I mean it's
very well documented what he sees in business and the
and the business of film, but also talent as well,
that he sees things that mortals do not at times,
and we'll take an out of the box choice because
he feels it right. Yeah, and I mean to his credit,

(11:55):
I think you know, Greg, Greg and I hit it
off immediately. And Greg was you know, he said, you're
telling jokes with a camera. I'm like, yeah, I'm trying to.
He just Greg some you should direct some. I'm like, okay,
I'll try that. I'm sure I could do that. So
in terms of your move into directing, once you're on

(12:16):
the show, you're carrying the fifty pound heavy thing and
dping the show and Greg gives you an opportunity to direct. Now,
we talked before about what a one, what a bold choice,
and how thankful you are to him for giving you
that opportunity. Were you immediately kind of smitten by it?

(12:38):
Did you love it with directing? Yeah? Absolutely, as soon
as I got my chance, because I got to see,
you know, by this point, I don't know how many
episodes I HADDP. I suppose thirty or so, So I
got to see all these really great directors do great
and I got to see some do good and seeing
what worked and what didn't work, and seeing what work

(12:59):
with actor is not necessarily other actors and seeing how
they influence the camera. Those were all That was a
great education. I mean that was a great education. We're
shooting thirty plus, you know, forty page scripts five days
a week, and I got to see it. I got it.
It was such a great school. Yeah. It occurs to me, however,

(13:23):
that in the world of unscripted, when you're out there
shooting say the first season of Survivor or Fear Factor
or certainly Eco Challenge, where people are going I don't
know how many miles per hour just down a rapid,
you are in a way directing yourself. Now, I'm not

(13:45):
dismissing there are directors who are working with you and
you guys are talking about stuff. But that's the thing
is that live in the moment shot you have to
make the choice because it's not repeatable, essentially correct, and
you know those those things. You know, there were producers
there who are basically writing down what happened. They weren't

(14:08):
saying can you get me a shot of this or
can you get me a shot of that? Oh? No,
you know, we were we were camera operators who were
telling a story. We're definitely self directing, right, you know,
they couldn't keep up with where we were going at
times because I would go out with you know, the
contestants on a raft, or I'd go on a hike
with them and i'd you know, tell them what happened

(14:28):
on the way back. But in the first one, they
really weren't. There's nobody really directing camera. Yeah. I mean
you've talked about how how reality wasn't really your thing,
but clearly it taught you a lot at how do
you how do you think it prepared you for your
next career? I do think reality television makes gives people

(14:49):
some some people really great skills. It makes you know,
camera operators more autonomous and more story forward, so they're
telling the complete parts of a story. Worry. It also
does wonderful thing for editors. Editors are just taking this
mess of footage and weaving it into a story. So

(15:10):
editors are doing what writers normally do right into reality television.
So I think it gives everybody very very high level
of skill. It's also just the hours on the camera
or under the camera, shooting eight hours a day and
trying to make it look artful. That's great training. Whereas normally,
like on a TV show, but you're really rolling the

(15:32):
camera maybe two hours a day or something like that. Right,
It occurred to me when you were just talking. Do
you feel like when you were shooting there's a mess
of footage? Right, there's guys, you know, eating bugs or
surviving in one way or the other, or going down
the river. Do you feel like you started to self edit?

(15:55):
Did you start to construct shots thinking about how it
would fit together to tell a story of even a
character that you were watching. Absolutely, you know, I certainly
self editing and making a shot end and making a
story end and knowing how you know, just to let
them walk their foot go through the frame and they
walk off into the distance and you end the shot

(16:16):
and the shot at a big wide shot. So, I
mean the reality television it gets you, you know, how
you come into a scene and how you get out
of a scene. The stuff that happens happens in the middle.
That's up to them saying interesting stuff. But at the
beginning of a scene, the end of a scene, you
should be able to create those as as a camera operator.
Was there anything about the reality or unscripted that lent

(16:39):
itself to comedy specifically? Not really? Okay, you know, just
being that observational, verite style documentary that we were shooting,
just being a fly on the wall. I think it
was interesting. I don't know that it lent itself to comedy,
right per se. I think that, you know, yeah, but
it's interesting because you you know, you were obviously an

(17:01):
active participant as you were holding the camera in the office,
and oftentimes, you know, you would find things that were
happening in the room that buttoned a joke or buttoned
what was saying that wasn't necessarily scripted by a writer.
I guess that's sort of where I'm going with this,

(17:23):
Like somebody says something that the camera into the person
operating the camera into it's as funny, and there's one
of your famous like quick zip ins to a face
and then a pan over. You know a lot of
that stuff, and I don't think you guys ever got
as much credit as you deserve for that. I mean

(17:43):
a lot of that times when people are laughing out
loud as they're watching the show is due to what
you guys are doing with the camera as much as
the actors, as much as the writers or anything else.
Thank you. Yeah, we talked a lot about the office.

(18:16):
If you want, you can go back and listen to
Randall's deep dive into the show. He was great. I
made him cry. I remember that. Thanks man, But one
of the shows that comes out of the gate for you, Randall.
He begins getting opportunities to direct other shows, and Greg
Daniels lets him go, and eventually he decides that it's

(18:39):
time for him to move on and take that fifty
pound camera off his back and begin directing. My recollection
is is that you got hired to do a full
season of It's Always Sunny? How did that come about? Yeah?
I did. I got I got hired to do a
full season of It's Always Sunny. And when I first
I don't know if I can say this on here,

(18:59):
you can say whatever, say whatever. But I watched it
and I'm like, I don't know, it's I don't think
it's sad. It's not me. And I remember my agent
at the time he says, smoke a joint watch four.
So I'm like, oh no, this is really funds pretty
good stuff. And I took it. I took the job

(19:21):
and I had a blast doing that. I had a
really good time on Sonny. It was it's really fast,
and I remember coming into it and the director I
watched for a couple of days on sad he says, look,
there's not much you can do. It's four people all
at once, like well, surely punctuation, so you know, I
can punctuate the jokes. I could certainly give you some
help with the comedic timing, but it came pretty well

(19:44):
banked because they all wrote it and then they all
acted in it. So what I could do there is
actually create ins and outs and punctuation to jokes and
had a blast doing And I love those guys. Why
do you think you were hired? Was there an experience
that that you had that that made them want want
you to come on for such a long time? I
think telling jokes with the camera from the office that

(20:06):
they did see that I could tell jokes and start
scenes and begins you know, get get obviously at the beginning,
middle and the end, but also in a way that
amplified the comedy. Yeah, you know, it's always sunny. Is
certainly a cruder show, isn't the right word? Very different
than the office at that time or parks and recreation.

(20:30):
How was that for you working on that? Being so
different from where you had come from. You know, there
was always a lesson, I think, and everything they were
doing there there was a lesson by doing the wrong thing.
They there are points of view, were deplorable and completely wrong,
but in doing so there was a message I think
behind that. Yes, I mean all those characters, they're all

(20:52):
good people who were talking about things that um were
relevant and important to them at the time and culturally important.
It's just that they were doing the wrong thing to
talk about it, and that was pretty funny. Yeah, It's
like Michael Stodd, Michael Scott was not that he was
always you know, it wasn't saying the right thing, but

(21:13):
it wasn't It wasn't mean spirit. It was just coming
from a place of not knowing any better, right, Yeah,
I mean, I think the difference is and that's actually
my argument now for when people say you couldn't you
couldn't make the office today. You know, for me on
the office when he would say or do something inappropriate,
I don't know, to say the least, you had fifteen

(21:36):
other people telling you that that was not good what
he said. So it was an example, I think, and
always sunny. We didn't always see the other side of it,
which which just yeah, it's just that the tone of
it is different. What do you see as the show's
heart always sunny? I mean, I suppose the show is

(21:57):
hard as they have each other. As deplorable as all
of them are, they still have each other, right, And
I think that it's it's you know, leading leading by
bad example, right, all the all their things that they
gang does, this, gang fights, this gang fights that they
do it all in the wrong way. But they know

(22:17):
where they're all coming from. They know what the point
of view is. It's coming that they want to portray. Yeah,
so you you start in reality, you know, then you're
doing mockumentary. Now you're doing a show for an extended
period of time that the camera style is totally different.
Did you find that challenging in a way or were

(22:37):
you just continuing to roll down a trajectory? No, you know,
I mean, for me, form follows function, and from day
one that I started on, it's always sunny. Is like,
I should have three cameras here because you want you
want this, you want bat and you want the Master.
You know, it's this not a precious show. It doesn't
need to look great. We should have three cameras rolling
on this, and so I introduced the third camera to

(23:00):
my seasons It's Always Sunny, and they've never shot ever
again without three cameras, right, So that show is shot
in three days. An episode of It's Always Sunny shot
in three days because it's three cameras going all at once.
And you know, to me that was the style of
the show is already established, and I don't think it's

(23:20):
a director's job to go and a guest director to
go create something that's, you know, not consistent with the
rest of the season. So I think guest directing it's
always about doing the best job you can within the
constraints of the show and within the style of the show. Right.
But that's pretty genius in terms of you seeing, well, look,

(23:43):
we're not going to change the style. We're just going
to make things more efficient and potentially at least more alive.
I e. The fewer takes you have is always better
as long as you can get it right. That makes
so much that I didn't know that there's that sense.
I think there's this thing if an actor thinks you're

(24:05):
going to do ten takes like some directors do on
all shows, you see that there is a point of
diminishing returns and being aware of those. If you're going
in and you think they think you're going to do
four takes, you're gonna get four great takes. Everybody's just
gonna leave it out there, you know they're gonna really

(24:26):
And that's I think there's some wisdom in that, is
actress just believing he's only gonna do three takes, right,
and you're gonna get the gold and then and then
you can keep digging, digging if you think there's more
in there. I'm sorry, like I'm digging away. You're so digging.
I'm like someone is just digging the hell out of you.
A group chat um you that just reminded me of

(24:49):
us working together and being in the conference room or
somewhere and just the side looks that you and I
would of each other and others when it was like
we're going again, we're going again, we're going again, and
at some point someone would say, why tell us what

(25:12):
we're not getting. We'll do it. I promise you just
tell us what we're not getting so we can do it.
You know, it's always sunny. It's so crazy that you
just told me that because one of the things that
I was going to say to you is it's always
felt to me like a multi cam show like it
just even though it's not, and I know it's not,

(25:34):
but it has that feel and that style in a way.
It's always felt that way to me. So that's that's
so interesting that you kind of forced it into that
you finish that, and I think this, for me is
what I'm the most proud of you for. You start

(25:55):
working on a couple of things which are huge changes.
One is Wilfred that I came and joined you for
a tiny bit on that, and also Fargo, which I
consider to be one of the most underappreciated, not that
people don't love it, but it's never talked about so

(26:19):
much for some reason, and I don't exactly know why,
but it is a brilliant show. And again, these are
two shows that don't follow your lineage from the way
that they're shot to really the tone you know from
the office and then to always sunny. First, let's talk
about Wilfred. How did that come about? So I read

(26:42):
the script of Wilfred and I you know, I lived
in Australia for seventeen years and I was amazed when
I read that script, but I didn't know about the
show existing in Australia. It felt so much in my
wheelhouse for firm a show that I would like, and
I'm always attracted to high degree of difficulty and I
read that script and I thought, Wow, I can really

(27:07):
make a mess of this. Wow, that's gonna make me
try it even harder. And so I just thought I
was really attractive. If I could pull this off, this
really interesting obscure tone, that'll be really fun, that'll be
something special. So I think it's like me and paddling
Whitewater's the bigger, the harder, the rapid, the more exciting

(27:30):
it is to do it. And like many things with me,
I just think you really enjoy that high degree of difficulty.
I think it makes you pay attention more, you know,
keeps you on your feet and that's exciting. Yeah, if
you haven't checked out Wilfred everybody, you definitely should. It's
one of those where you're like, what, what the what?

(27:51):
But you really gave the show heart. I felt like
I found it very funny, totally bizarre, but really relatable
and human and realistic in a bizarre way. Yeah, I
really enjoyed that I came to play with you for

(28:15):
a couple of episodes, and I think you may have
told me this that you guys were trying to get
Robin Williams on the show, and I was like his
orderly and he wanted people for his orderlies that he
had worked with before, something like that, or you were

(28:35):
trying to make him more comfortable because he and I
had worked together before. Do you remember all of that? No, No,
I just remember loving you and wanting to work with you. Okay, well,
perfect orderly with a fake head. Yeah. It was a
weird episode, very weird, very weird. I remember Robin Williams

(28:56):
after we do a bunch of takes, he says he
said to me, says he bought some boss, can I
try something? I'm like, you could do whatever you want,
thank you? Yeah? God, yeah. But we shot that show
on Stills cameras. Do you remember that? Now? I do

(29:17):
shot that entire series on Still's camera as long vintage
lenses I bought off eBay And that was from the pilot.
Is like, you know, form follows function. I wanted I
wanted Elijah's dementia to be mirrored visually, so anytime he
was going deep into his dementia. We would shoot on
these We would shoot in a seventy millimeter aspect ratio,

(29:40):
and the only way you can do shoot seventy millimeter
aspect ratio is by shooting seventy millimeter film, which is
crazy expensive, or shooting on these stills cameras and these
nice old vintage lenses that were the depth of field
was so shallow. It gave the show a really cool
look and we ended up winning an Award for cinematography
on that show. That is I totally forgot that you

(30:02):
did that. How did they let you do that? That
is so crazy? It is crazy. I can't believe we
did it. I'm like, I was convinced that this is
this is what I wanted to do, and it it worked,
It really did. And you know, that was my very
first pilot. But yeah, we cold. You can buy those
cameras at costco. How many of those did you direct? Uh?

(30:23):
Fifty one of fifty four? Dear goodness? Yeah, wow, yeah, wow, folks,
that doesn't happen. Just so you know, unless you're in
a b unless you're d you're really shooting a multi
camera show, then it can happen. Jimmy Burrows can do that,
but not many others who are shooting other shows. How

(30:46):
did you make that work with scouting locations and everything else?
How did you do that? Um? Well, we had you know,
we'd have, um, you have all all the episodes written
all at once, and so we shot it. You'd shoot
a movie, you'd shoot scene fourteen from episode ten right
next to scene one from episode you know two, and

(31:09):
so you had just had to keep all that in
order and had to really pay attention continuity. And so
what what we used to do on that show is
I would I would we would be doing scenes that
were after a scene we wouldn't be shooting for weeks.
So I would say, okay, let's go read the scene
right before this scene so we know where we're coming here,

(31:30):
and so the actors would kind of we'd perform it
and then they would figure out where they need to
be in this scene even though we hadn't shot that
scene before, which that happens all the time, but never
so much is you know, episode ten and episode one
shooting at the same day. But then again I had
Elijah Wood who shot three movies at once, you know right,

(31:52):
Well that yeah, I mean, that's it that's a long movie. Yeah.
I mean if you're doing six and a half seven
hour mo wow, yeah, wow, then I want to Fargo.
Fargo is one of my favorites. I mean, you and
I've talked about it. How did you get? How did
you get? Now? Was this your relationship on Wilfred and
with the network? Is that how they allowed you to

(32:14):
come into Fargo? Yeah? You know, I had I had
an overall deal at Effects for some time, and I
knew John Landgraff and I had some development there. But
I think, you know, looking at Fargo in my body
of work, that's kind of a jump that I would
be eligible for something like that. But I had also
done Nurse Jackie by this point. I did the final

(32:37):
two episodes of one season, and then I came back
and was executive producer and director of the next season.
And when I look at that show, I don't I
think totally it is a half hour, but totally it
shares some a lot of DNA with hours. So I
submitted and said, look, you know, yes, I have this

(32:58):
body of work that is I mean, Wilfred had some
heavy stuff and it's some really dramatic stuff in it,
But I said look at look at the show Nurse
Jackie and consider that it's not really the comedy of
that show is not what I was interested in. And
Eric Schreyer watched it, watched my episodes of Nurse Jackie,

(33:18):
and he said, yeah, I totally get it. And so
that's how I got on Fargo, is somebody actually being
open minded enough to look at a half hour and
consider it how that would translate into an hour if
I was to direct Fargo. What was different about working
on Fargo than anything you've done before. It was really cold.
It's really really cold, you know. But comedies you tend

(33:42):
to shoot both angles. I mean, I think that's that's
the best way to shoot comedy, is that everybody's getting
everything all at once. The actors are feeding off each other,
You're never missing a moment. Fargo, like Nurse Jackie, was
much more composed, and you were actually lighting the DP
was actually lighting shots, not scenes. So you really needed

(34:02):
to break it down and think, Okay, I'm going I
know I'm opening with this, I want to come close
in on Martin or Billy Bob, and you know, you're
shooting one side at a time. So that's a very
different thing. Than just like what we do in comedy
a lot our times is it just has to be
more planned. It takes a lot longer, that's for sure.

(34:23):
You know the waffle Hut scene. There's the pilot of
episode season two. There's a waffle Hut scene where Kieran
Culkin comes in and shoots his way out of the
waffle hut. And we didn't have enough This is winter
in Calgary. We didn't have enough nighttime to shoot the

(34:43):
amount of shots we needed for that scene. So we
built that set on green screen and we shot all
shot that everything on green screen, and then we took
that set and built it out in the tun drop
in the snow and shot the rest of it because
we had in side to outside links and so on
and so forth. So you know, it really required having

(35:06):
a real good plan is how that would all come
together to shoot the same scene on two locations. It's
pretty interesting you talked before about when you don't direct
a pilot, when you come into a show like for example,
it's always sunny and you're tied to that form that exists,
and you feel like your job is to do it

(35:27):
as well as you can, but not to mess with
the form that's there. Did you feel a pressure or
was there an attempt by you to channel the Cohen Brothers.
I mean, I know that sounds weird, but like that show,
and partly why I find it so well done is

(35:48):
I feel like the shots come straight out of the
Cone Brothers. Yeah, you know, so if you look at
the couplet of the Cone Brothers stuff. Certainly like Fargo.
The only long lens shot in all of Fargo everything
was like twenty nine thirty two forty mills a long
lens on Fargo, right, it was all shot pretty wide.

(36:09):
The only long lens shot is the opening shot of
the car. Yeah, and that was shot by the second
unit DP, just out on his own. They told us,
they said, go get a shot of a car driving,
and so he did this really really long lens shot
of the car driving. And I remember in my episode,
so it's the moment where all our Platque's character finds

(36:34):
the cash, that's the money, and I remember I shot
it exactly the same way. I shot it really really
really long lens. So yeah, very cognizant, very very aware
of paying tribute to how that that film was done.
And I was really that was really fun. It was
really cool. He worked on so many amazing shows that

(37:14):
we've discussed in that the Muppets as well, Nurse Jackie.
You bring up Parks and Wreck and many many more.
Abbot Elementary is your current show that is a smash
bang boom success. You returned now to a documentary or

(37:35):
mockumentary style show. How did you get involved with Abbot Elementary? Um?
I got sent to the script by Quinta, and you know,
we really hit it off. And up until this point,
I had a moratorium on Zooms. I wasn't going to
do any more zooms. I's gonna take that out of
my TOOLSHD. But you know when I when I heard

(37:57):
the story and met Quinta, it was like, this is
a story about unsung heroes. And you know, I think
everybody's got a teacher in their life that means something
to them if they remember something about and they were
affected in some way. I really fell in love with
with what teachers do? You know? Being a public school teacher,

(38:19):
you're you're you're gonna make not enough money. You're not
going to be well enough paid for the important job
that you do. Absolutely, yeah, Therefore, the reasons you're doing
it for are all the right reasons, and I just
felt like this would be this would be a really
you know, nice love letter to teachers, but also just

(38:40):
meeting Quinta us, like, Okay, you're something special. Yes, I
would like to do your pilots very much, thank you.
And I did. And it's funny like I ended up
shooting a lot of that pilot. I actually operated the
camera on every every camera on every scene. We had
three cameras, and I would just take one camera to time,
then I'd moved on to camera and move on next

(39:01):
camera so that the operator that wasn't operating at that
moment could see what I was doing and why I
was doing it. Because it's really hard to train teach instincts.
You know, they could observe the instinct, but I didn't
really have the words to tell them about the instinct, right,
you know. I would always talk to the cameraman like
you would talk to um an actor. You know this,

(39:25):
you know she knows this, you know he he does
not know she knows this, and that would really inform
the camera's point of view. But only on the pilot
in particular, I operated the camera because I thought that
that was that was something I could bring in terms
of the style. And now we've got really great camera
operators and um, I don't do that so much anymore.

(39:47):
They did the camera operators, Uh, share your lineage and
come from reality TV or no? Yeah, yeah yeah. The
camera operators on on Avid Elementary all come from reality
television and documentaries. Wow. I think it proves really good skills.
Why was it the best choice in terms of style

(40:08):
for this show? I think what I liked about it
is what I like about documentaries is you have this
veneer of people being very earnest and very real at
times when they don't think they're being observed, you know,
So those long lens shots of like Pam and Jim,
and those long lens shots of Gregory and Jeanine, you

(40:31):
can put this veneer on it that it there's an
air of authenticity that I think comes through you when
you back up on the backup away from the characters
and zoom into the lens. So I think what I
like about the mocumentaries. I love the notion that you're
catching these people when they don't know they're being watched,

(40:51):
or if they know they are being watched, how they
interact like when you catch Steve saying something that, oh,
I know, I just said something that's not entirely great,
there's something really fun about that. There's another layer of it. Yeah,
there's there's just another layer of comedy and another layer
of of heart you can find. I think by making
it a mocumentary, you talked about wanting to show the

(41:12):
teachers as as being heroes. Using this style, does this
help you accomplish that goal in a way or get
to know the characters more. I think it helps you
find them when they're being selfless in a real, honest
way and seeing them do the right thing. Even Ava
Ava's going to grow it like this much each season,

(41:34):
you know, because she's still all about self. But when
you see those real moments that they're playing so real
because of this veneer that you put on it, it's
just rich. It just it just hits you as a viewer.
I agree. I really like. I actually I really like
when you activate a viewer and you make them to
trying to look around a corner. Yes, I remember doing

(41:56):
on Fargo that I was doing these dolly pushes that
the dolly grip some slower, even slower, annoyingly slow, like
annoyingly slow, and there you're agitating the viewer. You're you're
poking at them, You're getting them kissed off, or you
know whatever. It is apprehension. You know, it's an interesting thing,

(42:18):
and I think that a mockumentary has the ability to
really make the viewer a participant rather than a passenger.
Do you feel like, like on the Office, are the
cameras in Abbot elementary? Are they? Are they characters? Do
they have a perspective? Yeah? I think so. I think
certain actors have different relationships and thretained cameras. Yeah, like

(42:41):
Tyler James Williams. He talks about that that there's one
camera operator, Jeremiah, who catches him all the time. It's
like and I look up, there he is, there, he is.
Our camera operators are really great, um friend and Jeremiah
and Drew really good camera operators. And I think they're
all looking for something all the time. In your first

(43:02):
meeting with Greg Daniels on the Office, you talked about
the office being the tofu hot dog, the good food
wrapped like junk food. Do you think that applies to
Abbot as well? Yeah? I suppose it does, you know,
but I wanted I wanted Abbot to look. I mean,
you know, the office had its a look that people

(43:22):
came there from nine to five, punch the clock. The
only one who really wanted to stay or you know,
is Michael and Dwight. And that's if you know. Dwight
wanted to stay longer because more time with Michael. Yeah,
everybody else is like just punch of the clock, they're
ready to go home. So it kind of had a
flatter look you look forward to getting out of Abbot.

(43:45):
I really wanted it to make these people look like heroes.
So we certainly lighted a lot prettier and shoot on
prettier lenses just to make these people look as good
as they deserve. To any favorite memories so far shooting, Oh,

(44:05):
I remember, I'm the pilot. We were trying to get
the kids to be quiet, and this is during COVID, right,
and they're six years old and seven years old, and
they've never been Most of them have never been on
a film set before. None of them had been in
school for like a year, ye right. None of them
had been in a room with thirty other six year

(44:28):
olds in two years. So they were going crazy, rest
going crazy, and it was It was the greatest. It
was so cool, and you know we're old trying okay,
quiet quiet, please quiet please? Yeah, right, yes, seriously quiet quietly,
got quiet down, and Quinton and I are just trying
in adies are trying to get me be quiet, and

(44:50):
Cheryl leave. Ralph walks in the room and she says,
good morning, class. My name is Cheryl Lee. I am
your teacher today. What do we do when I say yet,
we'd be quiet? We did really good casting here. This
is great. We're gonna be hit. Quin and I were like,

(45:10):
oh my god, you well you apparently you guys didn't
get the memo like the hardest things to work with
or what animals and children? How is that still? They?
I mean, talk about the challenges of that on a
day to day basis, On a day to day basis,
they make everybody smile. There you go. They make everything

(45:33):
harder and everything better every day. It's so cool. Add
kids do it and everything gets real, real, real. One
there's you know, they have a they pumpkin, you know,
sit there quietly at you know, act like you're coloring,
but don't make any sounds. You know. Oh, you can
only use one one pen. One pen color because we

(45:54):
hear your pen go down, you pick up another one,
or we hear you move in your chair. So there's
a really used by day, you know, used by day
with the kids is that they're gonna get bored and
therefore we all need to do our work and we
need to have it together. We need to have a plan.
So the actors are very aware of that. They see
them turn and getting bored and restless. And exactly these

(46:19):
actors are. They act like their teachers, and they they
they embody their teachers to get what we need out
of the kids. Out of the kids are the greatest.
You know. There was a little boy in the pilot,
this boy named Abraham whom Janine's telling him to turn
around and be quiet, and then starts counting to three
and he just does this. He just did that on

(46:42):
his own. He just did that on his own. So okay,
I'm not ignoring you, ignoring you. And he's um and
he's been he's been in the show so much in
the background. We've used him for stuff that because he's
really smart, he's gonna do great work. We've given him lines.
We given you know, so many kids, so many lines,

(47:04):
and when they get their chance. Oh they're so you know,
I remember Abraham came up to me, you know, in
the first season he says, so, mister Randall, sir, is there,
how what can I do to prove myself that I
deserve a line? I can handle a lot. I'm like, dude,
You've already done it. I'm just waiting for the moment
to give you a line. And now we're giving just

(47:26):
finding these kids that you know, they focus on you
and they make eye contact even even though you have
a mask on, and they you could see them paying attention.
And we're giving all these cool kids these really cool opportunities.
I think it's really fun. That's awesome. It's really cool.
Speaking of awesome, a few weeks ago, the show Abbott

(47:47):
Elementary basically it sweeps the Golden Globes. Can you talk
about this? How did that feels? I mean, it's really cool.
I mean feeling the love that we're getting is incredible.
And you know, it's funny because I look into the
other shows that we're competing against, and they're not twenty
one minute thirty second shows. They're they're twenty eight minutes,

(48:08):
they're twenty two minutes. They're thirty one minutes, they're sixteen
minutes whatever a show needs to be, right. What I'm
so proud of is that we're making we're making this
show under the constraints of network television, which I don't
think has been done successfully like this in quite some time. Again. Um,
so that that I find very rewarding and being you know,

(48:29):
competing against you know, Barry and the Bear. You read
you're listening to who our actors are up against, and
they're they're they're all sitting there at the table just like,
oh my god, I'll look against blah blah. It's it's
it's crazy, it's really cool. It's so nice to feel

(48:50):
the love. It's I think that the reason the show
has such such such success is it resonates with everybody
because everybody's had a teacher, everybody's had this really relationship,
you know, and Quinta has put together a really cool show,
Like we've been here together since the beginning, and she's
incredible and just an incredible leader. She knows everybody's name

(49:14):
on set. She's a great leader and a really good
human being. So that's awesome. Yeah, it's good to see
those people rewarded. Yeah, and you know it is you
bring up a great point about network television. It is
so has becomes so rare because the constraints are real.
It forces you into a very specific type of form,

(49:36):
a type of storytelling, given the time constraints and how
the acts have to be structured for commercial Where. How
do you feel like Abbot Elementary can help future network
television shows and how do you think it and where
do you see network television going? Why do you keep
working on them? I mean, you know what I like

(49:58):
about it being on network television is like some of
the subject matter that we're dealing with can go to
every home in America, whatever political, you know, socioeconomic type
of house. That is. We're talking about things that I
think are are important, and I think it's really fun.
It's really fun to push the boundaries like that. I

(50:20):
did another show called The Mick. I did the pilot
for the show called The Mick YEP and it was
like the show could have been on streaming or cable,
but I really enjoyed the fact that it's it's on
network and it's really fun to see what you can
get away with, Yeah, by pushing those boundaries. And what
I also like is it's it's reaching a lot of people.

(50:42):
That's an awesome answer, because I think with the decentralization,
if you will, if that's the way to say it,
with all the streaming services, it's true, there's a lot
of amazing work and you can see things now being
done that you couldn't before. That's a good thing. But
it's also a good thing to have the challenge of

(51:05):
making a show that attempts to be more universal, or
at least, you know, attempts to appeal to a universality
and not a niche market. I think that's that's really
well said. Good for you, thank you, Yeah, good luck
on the pilot. I'm sure it'll be a freaking gangbuster,

(51:28):
huge success. Like seemingly everything you touch you look amazing.
I love your face, and uh, it's so good to
catch up. Let's open a bottle of wine. Oh I
love that. Let's open a bottle of wine. So I
got I go. I go away in three weeks time

(51:50):
the Grand Canyon. So I'm prepping for three weeks. I
go away for three weeks while the rest of the
pilot preps. I get off the river. On the twenty
seventh table, read on the twenty eight, start shooting two
days after that, so it's gonna be busy. You'll be
rested and relax. I'll be rested. Well, let's let's let's
open a bottle of line when I get back. I'm

(52:12):
so happy for you. Thank you so much, my pleasure.
Good to see you, brother, You too, Randall. Oh man,
this was so special. It is so amazing to see

(52:34):
you again and hear all about Abbott. You know what
I'm gonna do. Someday, I'm gonna make my own documentary
about your life, but I'm probably gonna need you to
shoot it anyway. Listeners, thank you for being here. I
hope you enjoyed this week's Off the Beat strike that
I know you did. How could you not, because I

(52:56):
I really did. Make sure you tune in next week
and leave a comment on our Instagram page at Off
the Beat if you would, or go to Apple Podcasts.
I can't tell you how helpful that is. Also, let
us know who you want to see on the podcast.
We'll see you next week. Off the Beat is hosted

(53:25):
an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive
producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Diego Tapia. Our
producers are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris, and Emily Carr. Our
talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary and our intern is
Sammy Katz. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by

(53:47):
the one and only Creed Brett,