Eric Hutchinson on Roger Federer, Paul Simon, Seinfeld and...people who liked high school??

This week, it's singer-songwriter Eric Hutchinson! S.E. shares the story of how her and her husband came to find Eric's music. Eric talks about the song-writing process, how not to write a song that's already been written and some of the wild (and hilarious) story sources for some of his songs. The pair also talk and debate the best singer-songwriters of all time, the surprising connection between Seinfeld and Paul Simon, their complicated feelings around kids music and censorship and why there still isn't a song of the summer! Also ... S.E. sings! Stay tuned for a very lyrical lightning round! Eric is on tour through November 2025! Check out his updated shows here. Eric’s latest album, “Cliff Notes — Best of Eric Hutchinson 2014-2024,” is out now.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys. Before we get into my terrific conversation with
Eric Hutchinson, I want to give you a little listening recommendation. Now,
we don't talk about politics here on Off the Cup,
but when you want to, when you're in that mood,
I've got a podcast for you. It's hosted by my
friend Andy Astroy. It's called The back Room with Andy Astroy,
and it's so fun. It's really insightful. It's politics but

(00:22):
also pop culture, and it features terrific interviews with prominent politicians,
media personalities, journalists, authors, academics, filmmakers. I love going on
the pod with Andy because he's got a unique voice
and strong opinions. He's really funny, he's engaging, and the
chats are informal and intimate, but I think really informative.

(00:46):
The Backroom with Andy Ostroy posts new episodes two to
three times a week and they can be found wherever
you get your podcasts. So check it out and now
onto the show.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
I feel like we end up writing pop songs about
like four so I've spent a lot of my career
trying to write other songs and a lot of times
people are like cool, I don't know what to do
with this song. I can't play this at a wedding.
I can't get drunk to the song. But I'm interested
in that sort of gray area of life.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Welcomes off the cup my personal anti anxiety antidote, and
boy do we need it right There's a lot going
on in the world, but we can take a break
from it all right here. And music is always such
a great escape, isn't it. Are you one of those
people who listens to sad songs when they're sad? I

(01:37):
don't do that sad songs to me, doubling down on
the sad doesn't generally work for me, but I know
a lot of people who do that. I escape into
music all the time, though, and this being a podcast
where we do talk about mental health, I can tell
you when I'm at my most anxious, it's classical music
that really fixes me up. For some reason, listening to

(01:59):
lyric it's too much stimulus. It's too emotionally triggering for me.
So I need the classical to really calm me down,
and it works. But I love all kinds of genres,
and I think we had Paul Stanley of Kiss on
the pod and he said it right I think he
was quoting Duke Ellington and he said there's only two
kinds of music, good and bad. The rest. I mean,

(02:21):
all the genres can be good and they all offer
me something. But I really really love singer songwriters. Pop
music is great as his country. I love them both,
but so much of it today is written by other
people for other people, So it's really hard for me
to feel connected to those artists. I might love listening
to them on the radio, but I don't feel a

(02:41):
connection unless I know someone has written their own song.
And so I'm so thrilled for today's guest because I
am a fan. He's so talented and when I reached
out to interview him, he said yes, and he lives
in New York, so we get to do this one
in person in studio, which, as you know, is always
so fun. He's a renowncinger songwriter. He's toured with everyone

(03:02):
from Kelly Clarkson to Jason maraz One Republic to OAR.
It's Eric Hutchinson.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Thanks, welcome to YUP, Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Thanks for being here.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
I love the little bio. It makes you know nice
you're here.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
It's nice to hear someone talk about your career, right, yeah,
you know.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Yeah, just having a nice little bio is like, oh,
it does sum up your life a little bit. It's
a little highlights.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
But the beauty of this as we get an hour
to really talk about your life deep. We're going deep.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
How did you find out about my music? I don't
even know.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
My husband, who's the next room, lived in DC.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
Okay and where I'm from.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yep, he was working in politics. I was in New
York media. We sort of split our lives before we
got married, and he was a big fan and might
have seen you at nine thirty I'm not really sure,
but turned me on to your music, and I fell
in love instantly because Eric, you do all the things.
You have an incredible voice, which, thank you. I need that.

(04:01):
No offense to Bob Dylan. I need a great voice.
It's fine, Derek. Derek just cringed because I'm on record.
It's already out there that I don't like him. It's okay, Well,
if I may.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
I read a book about Bob Dylan, the one that
they made the movie out of. I went back and
read the book, and the biggest takeaway from that was
even from the beginning, like fifty percent of the population
did not like Bob Dylan because of his voice, Like
that's been the thing. Not from the beginning, people were like,
he's kind of annoying, Like yeah, okay, just sort of

(04:31):
over time, the other gotten louder and louder.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Okay, we feel better. But you do all the things.
You have an incredible voice. I love your lyrics. Your
songwriting is incredible. But you also and I don't know
if you know how this sounds to you, but you
write a really catchy song. I mean, your melodies are
so good. In fact, when you listen to them, they
sound familiar, like you've already heard them somewhere, but you haven't.

(04:56):
They are yours, and they're so good, and they always
make me wonder how no one written this yet, because
it's so perfect, these combinations of notes and lyrics. It's
too perfect.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Thank you. I mean, that's the first thing I do
when I write a song, as I spend a couple
of days trying to figure out if it's someone else's
song or not.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
Are you serious?

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, for sure. I know a lot of songwriters that
do that. But a lot of the times why it
sounds good to you while you're writing is because you've
already heard it somewhere else before.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
You know, this is fascinating because I remember reading Paul
McCartney wrote yesterday, Yes, and he was convinced it existed somewhere.
So he was calling up like Tony Bennett, like everyone
he knew and like humming him.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yes, I mean, it would have been so much harder
back then. Now I just see, know, sort of type
it into Spotify. I'll just sort of it's easier to
like figure it out. But back then, you know, you'd
be like going to the library looking at the encyclopedia.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Or making a phone call and calling someone. And he
was shocked that no one had heard that melody before, right,
And so yeah, I mean it's not a it's not
a diss to say your song sounds so familiar.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
It's just no, I love that I'm obsessed with songs
that it's sort of hard to imagine the world existing
without those songs. Yes, Like Nora Jones, you know what's
the big one?

Speaker 1 (06:16):
Well, there's come Away with Me. But yeah, on the
other one, don't know why, don't know why? Right, Yeah,
I'm just.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Like I hear that song and I'm like, how is
that song only in the twenty first century, you know,
like or I just learned recently that Frank Sinatra's New York,
New York that song is from like nineteen eighty, you know,
like he was doing most of his career. That song
wasn't even on his radar yet or anything. And so
I love that kind of stuff. So I do, like

(06:41):
I try to have a song and ideas for songs
that feel like, how is this not an idea yet
or how That's why sometimes to my detriment, you know, like,
I try really hard to not write songs that I
feel like I've heard before. Sure, but a lot of
people want to hear songs they've heard before, or you know,
there's a lot of big ideas that people or like, well,
I'd like a breakup song, and I'm like, I don't

(07:02):
really do those. You know, there's plenty of them out there.
So I like the idea of the songs feeling familiar.
It's like a warm hug.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
It feels like a warm hug. Your songs feel like
a hug, and I love them. And what's great is
they're also very layered, so you can listen once and
think this is great immediately, but then over time, there's
so much more.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
Well, you said about like sad songs when you're sad,
and that was a big shock to me. At my
first album came out, I made it, and to me
it was a very sad record about not being able
to like settle down or find love or anxiety, and
it was such a shock to everyone. Be like, I
love this album. I put it on when I'm cleaning
the house, and I'm like, the lyrics are very much

(07:45):
like me being lost in my twenties, But that's not
what people are picking up on or whatever. Even like
my most popular song rock and Roll is like a
is sort of a cynical look at like going out
to the clubs and and but people don't hear that.
They hear like it's a fun song about going out
and meeting people.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Well, I think Nate Raylift said the same thing about Sonovich.
People hear it as like a drinking song, and he's like, no, no, no,
this is I quit drinking and this is the song
of me and how hard it was to quit drinking.
I mean, listen, you put him out there, then it's mine. Definitely,
it's mine, right. You no longer have ownership over my
interpretation of it.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yeah, I've almost stopped trying to explain what songs are about.
And my shows, I'll talk, but I could tell ten
different intro stories about each song depending on what I
want to talk about, but in generally, yeah, I don't
like to talk too much about them because I don't
want to take away what other people are thinking.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
And their connection to it. Yeah, well I like that.
So on this pod we talk a lot about career
arcs and how we navigate our careers, but also mental
health parentings. You're such a perfect guest in so many ways.
But do you do a lot of podcasts?

Speaker 2 (08:55):
I do a fair amount of podcasts. I guess I'm
happy to be asked, And it just depends what kind
of what the vibes like.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Well, what do you look for, what do you what
do you like in a podcast.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
I've been reflecting because Mark Maron announced that he's going
to stop his podcast, and I've really been thinking about
how much he sort of helped shape the modern podcast
because he was very therapized, and you know, like I
just feel like he sort of created this thing of like,
let's talk long format for a while, and I'm gonna
maybe ask you some questions you wouldn't normally ask. Yeah,

(09:29):
and it's sort of a throwback to like old seventies
TV talk shows and things like that. But I just
think I learned a lot about artists and and myself
from listening to podcasts, especially Mark Maren's, but other ones too,
where I started to realize, like, oh, right, all my
heroes are like artists and musicians and writers and and
they're all kind of broken people, you know. And maybe

(09:52):
that's really obvious, but I feel like it's kind of
a newer idea for our culture of like people are
messed up inside. Maybe yeah, the older generation would say,
like we talk about it too much now, but I
feel like podcasts have really helped bring that stuff into
the world.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
I think you're right, And I think it's sort of
a perfect storm where people of a generation you know,
from you to Mark say, because he's older than us,
but you know, we've been through some stuff, We've gotten
therapy as generation, right, and now we have this medium,
this platform that didn't exist for the generation before us

(10:32):
to talk about it all. And so it's like all
the things and now we're at an age where we're,
you know, our lives are changing in my case. You know,
for women, our bodies are changing, we're maybe changing the
way we think about our careers, and so it's all
happening at the same time. And I think that's why
you've seen such a sort of explosion of these kind

(10:52):
of podcasts talking about mental health, career, this age in.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
Quotes, you know, yeah, and what we're all going through.
I also think I was talking to a friend of
mine and her mom, you know, who's a boomer generation,
and I also feel like we're the first generation that's
each generation has had like these traumatic things going on
where they didn't have time. I feel like we're the
first generation that has the luxury of time to sit

(11:18):
around and go to therapy and think about our family
generation and traumas and things like that. And just I
feel like, yeah, we have more time than ever. There's
more and more things. There's apps, we can get everything
delivered to us, we can do you know, we have
lots of time, that's true. Yeah, So it's either going
to binge that new TV show, or we're going to

(11:40):
go on a podcast and talk about your feelings.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yeah, and listen, we normalize talking about your feelings here,
like when you talk about mental health. It makes it
easier to talk about mental health.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
For sure. And that was something I started bringing more
into my music. And that was not something I grew
up with necessarily. And you know, I think I grew
up in a world you go to a therapist when
you've got a problem, or you tell everyone crazy, or
you know, yeah whatever, you know, So that was sort
of what my thought was freudy and you know, sitting around, Yes,

(12:12):
maybe a little more off. I don't know, uh.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Huh, yeah. I'm very alarmed before we get into sort
of your life, I'm very alarmed. We don't have a
song of the summer.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
It is July.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
What is wrong? What does this say about our country
right now?

Speaker 2 (12:27):
I always think it's like a viral video. You can't
pick the song of the summer. It just kills. It
will just appear, you know, when nobody saw Chapel Roone
coming true and then all of a sudden she was everywhere.
And I don't know, it's like it'll just it will
come from the heavens at some point. Okay, but you
know it could be August. It could be for.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
Me, that's late for me.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
But okay, all right, I just what has been your
song of the year so far. Is there a song
that's kind of I'm trying to think I know what
mine is. Actually, as I say that, I have a
six almost seven year old daughter. Yes, the song that's
probably number one on my Spotify right now is Apitae
by Oh Don't even Rosie and Bruno Mars.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
I thought it was Rose.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
Someone told me it's Rosie.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
My son loves that song. Yeah, I mean it's written
for a child.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah, it's a drinking song. Actually, yeah, it's a Korean
drinking song.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
But yeah, I've heard that song probably a thousand times
so far.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
Same. I'm just looking at my current list my song
of the year. Well, I'm into Chapel Roone, Greasy Abrams.
I'm really enjoying listen. I gotta say Benson Boone is
churning out hit after hit after hit for me and
my son.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
I feel like there was Benson Boone before he did
the flips off of Yes the Grammys, Like apparently people
knew he could do that. I didn't know that. It
was like such a simple thing, and now it's like, oh,
that guy does flips. We like his music. I don't know.
I once did a show with uh was it? I
can't remember the band, but we were doing a college show.
It was like a bunch of that was random acts

(14:06):
together and I was talking to him backstage and he's like,
I'm about to go on. I'm like cool, and then
I'm talking to him and then a second later he's
sprinting onto the stage. He does like five flips in
a row, lands directly in the center and starts singing
on the microphone. Panic at the disco. That's who it was.
Oh they're great too, And I was like, that's how
you make an entrance, you know, yes, but I feel like, yeah,

(14:28):
Benson Boone is he's he's done the flip and then
everything else came after, even though already had a massive hit.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
But I think it did. But he's he's been, he's
been really fun to listen to. I just discovered Tours. Yeah, okay,
the British band of Brothers.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Okay, I don't. I just know the name and yeah,
they're like I feel like they're one of these bands
to me that I hear the song and there's like
three that I know, Yes, half the words do without trying,
but I don't know what they are or who they are.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
I'm really loving them right now, and they're very much underground,
and I don't want everyone to discover them, but but
let it part out.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
We'll keep them just to you underground.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah. So you mentioned a daughter, and I remember when
my son was in the womb and then firstborn, I
was very I took very seriously what kinds of music
I played for him and introduced him to. There were
a lot of a lot of beatles, lots of bells, am,
lots of Simon and garfunk call. I wanted harmonies to be,
you know, something he could hear and he can't he can't.

(15:24):
What did you choose as a musician yourself to introduce
your daughter to at a very very young age.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
I think, in general, just the idea of music is
important to me. I wanted to get out as soon
as I could of the child music world, but seeing
that she loved it so much, I wasn't going to
get mad at it. But I sort of believed that
music I saw it was written like this, that like
music is like speaking a language.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
And saying that like music runs in your family is
sort of like saying that speaking French runs in your family.
You know, if you're speaking French from day one, they're
going to know how to speak French. So it's like
to me, if there's just music around, and that's what
it was like for me, was there was just music playing.
My parents weren't like performing music around the house, but
there was always the radio or records and CDs and

(16:18):
things like that. So I've just tried to play as much.
And but my daughter's getting to a point now where
she already she wants to go against whateverything I am showing.
I like, of course, but you know, I know it's
the long game that one day I'll be gone. She'll
be like, ah, this dumb song reminds me of my dad,
you know. So like every song she's being exposed to

(16:39):
is going to be interesting. And so we listened to
like a radio station in the morning and she we
just she wants to know what the people look like.
That's like the one. I don't know if your son
is like this, but like there's so much like she
wants all the information about what is this. I want
to see a picture. Is this an old picture? Is
it a new picture? Are they dead or they live?
Because I know you realize how many artists are dead.

(17:02):
I'm like playing the song, you know, and she's so
we have a lot of talks about that sort of thing. Okay,
but the Beatles were, you know, religion in my house,
so I've certainly like played it up. But she definitely,
you know, has to like back it off. But she
knows ten Beatles songs, so yeah about you know at least,

(17:23):
so that's good. But yeah, in general, she got a
record player for the first time after trying not to forever.
I live in the city, I didn't have the space.
But then we were at a hotel and like I
saw my daughter like messing with this record player that
was in the lobby, and I was like instantly on
the internet ordering one for us. So I'm kind of

(17:43):
getting back into that. But I love a lot of
old soul music. She just learned a Nat King Cole
song for the singing class she did, and I was
just like thrilled with that. So love that. Yeah, I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
I've been thinking recently, Arthur chanres of music that are
not appropriate to play for a young child. For example,
for example, if you're a fan of gangster rap or
death metal, yeah, okay, maybe you're you are a producer
of this music and then you have a kid. Is
it appropriate to introduce this music to like your two

(18:19):
year old?

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, I've thought about this a lot. Do Chi is
a person we're having a tough time with because there's
I mean, she likes her a lot. We me and
my wife really like her a lot, but she doesn't
have a lot of clean versions of things like that.
Kendrick Lamar tends to have a lot in there. We Yeah,
I don't depends how you feel about censorship. I guess

(18:40):
one of my least favorite things that I'm like have
like a visceral thing is kids Bop. Actually as a
music person, like I just I really I would much
rather play the real version and have a conversation about
why they said this word or that word, as opposed
to I just find kids Bop to me is just
like sucking the soul out of everything and trying to

(19:02):
I don't know. I feel like there's one world and
we all live in it. There's not kids world in
adult world, So like, why don't we just let the
kid get used to this song and if they don't
like it right now, maybe they'll get used to when
they're older, so but I agree. You know, how do
you put on Gin and Juice by Snoop Dog even
right now? What's the song? My daughter's into some song
and I'm like, we're gonna have to eventually explain what

(19:24):
this is about.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
Oh yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Oh it's Taste by Sabrina Carpenter. Yeah, just just sitting
there singing it. And I'm like, but that's everybody, right.
Do you have a song like that where you were like.

Speaker 1 (19:33):
Listen, I was listening to like a Virgin and Papa
Don't preach in first grade.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
Sure, and.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
I turned out okay, but like you know, I didn't
have the Internet where I could just go and find
out what all of this meant. I had to guess,
and so for years I didn't know what a virgin meant.
I didn't know that, And I'm in first grade humming
it to like my poor sixty year old teacher, and
there's nothing she can say about it, Like these.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
Songs are on the radio totally.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, So yes, I had those, but we were living
in a different time. It was a bit of a
different time. So first let's get into you. I like
to start by asking what kind of kid were you.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, I was a young kid in facts. I was creative.
I was an organizer. I would I I'm the oldest
of four, and I would corral people in the neighborhood
to like put on a play. We did a staging
of The Wizard of Oz on my front porch. I

(20:42):
organized my brother and sisters to like be in a
music group with me. So I was very much like
the ringleader. And I'd have up to, you know, ten
kids in the neighborhood that I'd be doing things with.
And I don't know I was.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
Were you confident then?

Speaker 2 (20:58):
No, not especially. I think I was kind of anxious.
But similar to today, I like to like put together my
team that I can be confident with and feel like
I know why everybody's here. If I'm in just sort
of a random group of people, I tend to hang
back and sort of see what the dynamics like. But
when I've like assembled people and I'm in charge, and
I feel like I have an ability to like or

(21:20):
I have the need that I have to sort of
run the room, you know. And that's what having my
band that I tour with is like it's been when
I'm making albums is like that so I still am
very much like I'm putting together. It's a small team.
I don't want to bring in on this, but yeah,
I don't know. I was. I wrote my first song
when I was eight years old. I was just kind
of always making up songs. And my music teacher, Miss Burnett,

(21:43):
saw that I was like humming these songs, and she said,
you know, why don't you come in, like after lunch
and I'll show you what we do when we have
an idea for a song. And I came in and
she notated the song out. You know, I told her
what it was, and I still have it and I
think about it older, I get because I'm like, Okay,

(22:04):
that was a person saying like I noticed you doing this, Yes,
let's take a moment for it. And that's what we
do with music. We write it down, we have an idea,
we capture it. And so I'm very thankful for that.
And you know, I didn't really think about I just
assumed everyone had a music in their lives. It wasn't
until I started doing a lot of interviews and radio
things where people are always asking me that that I

(22:25):
started thinking about, Oh, yeah, I guess you know, and
it's like fascinating to me when I meet somebody who's
like my parents only listened to talk radio, like I
didn't listen to any music. And my grandmother was a
professional musician. She played the viola in Washington, DC area.
She she her main thing was she had like a

(22:46):
string quartet and she would go to like schools and
perform for them, or she'd play a lot of weddings.
But then she also got hired by touring acts, you know,
like when tour, when people are on tour, usually high
string sections in each city because it's a lot cheaper
and easier, And then they just read the chart and saying,
so my grandmother played over the years for Stevie Wonder.

(23:09):
I was just looking at his list that she finally
wrote it out before she died. But Stevie Wonder and
Jackson Five, Ray, Charles, Aretha Franklin, John Denver, Tony Bennett,
all these people before I was around or able to
appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (23:25):
So there was just music was in culture and arts
were very important.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
Well in high school, you were voted most likely to
be an SNL star. Yeah, why Why.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Because the people who were running the yearbook knew I was.
I had a very big school.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yes, and Montgomery Montgomery Blair.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yes, it was a big public school. And I always
I never related to like high school movies because it
wasn't we didn't have the quarterback of the football team,
wasn't the most popular guy in school, because we had
a whole hallway that was full of kids from the
Philippines who like didn't give a shit about that person,
you know, or so like our school was just really

(24:09):
big and there wasn't like a center and so yeah,
that's uh. I was making movies and beings and like,
you know, I went to school for filmmaking, and I was,
you know, a comic kind of person, so I guess,
but I think that I can't remember who with someone specifically.
I think just kind of, yeah, cook the books a

(24:30):
little bit to get me on there. But that was
my other dream to be on SNL. And now my
wife works on SNL. I'm getting to live vicariously through her,
and I've learned I probably would have been very bad
at that show because it's really hard and you have
to be good at doing things at night, which I'm
not yet at and quickly and yeah, well.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
I have your superlative photo right here.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
Oh wow, there it is, and that's my blonde hair.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
And your yearbook for photo from senior year. Thank you
for yes, Yes, for sure. I made an album about
being in high school because I had some unfinished feelings.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
About it all. So I don't like high school.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
Neither did I. I don't understand the people who were
like high school was awesome.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
Well, I'll tell you I figured it away. I figured
it out. People that like high school like most things,
they're like, high school was great, college was great, my
marriage is great, my kids are great. They're just like
happy people, you know.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
I just people you're talking about my husband in the
next room were like, oh I loved high school and everything.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, yeah, amazing insights. I yeah, I did not particularly
love high school.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
What does that mean for us? Do we hate everything?

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Means we have to process things more, we have feelings
sense it is, you know, it has to I don't
know what I think of something right away, you know.
So I made a whole like kind of album out
being back in high school in the nineties, and I
made it in the style of all the nineties music,
and that sort of helped This is Class of ninety eight. Yeah,

(26:07):
kind of helped process some of that stuff.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
I'm in therapy to process some of that stuff. Okay,
so you end up going to college in Boston's where
I'm from, and then you sign with Madonna's Maverick Records.
But what happens.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
I got signed to Maverick Records, and I was very excited,
and I didn't realize I'd been trying for several years.
I've been just doing whatever I could. I didn't know
anybody in the music world. Even though my grandmother was
a viola player, she didn't have any connections. So I
was just like blindly trying to figure out how to
be a musician. And I finally get signed to this label,

(26:48):
Maverick Records, which is yes, Madonna had started the label.
Now her manager was running it, and I didn't realize, Like,
as I was having all these meetings, I was just
so excited that the next part of my life was happening.
Let's say goodbye to all the losers that were holding
me back, yep. And they didn't realize that all the
walls and the whole place were on fire while I
was like signing it. So I got into Maverick Records

(27:11):
and I started working on some music with a couple
of producers. I was staying out in La there were
you know, the label was giving me a hotel and
it's the dream. Yeah, it was like, this is amazing.
And then Maverick Records folded. I get a call from
my manager who's like, you can stay in the hotel tonight.
You can't stay in the hotel tomorrow. Everything's on hold.

(27:34):
They're going to like it's being swallowed up by Warner Brothers.
They're going to go through the whole catalog and they're
going to decide what they want to do. I hadn't
even made any music yet, so like there was nothing
to like be like, Okay, this sounds good or not.
It was just a random signing. So that fell apart.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
And how devastating was it?

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Quite?

Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Quite? Who's just using And I was probably twenty five,
But it felt like okay, that was that was the chance.
And yeah, it didn't happen, and I have to talk
to all those losers again that were holding me back.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
Right yep.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
But eventually, but eventually, so the one thing that Maverick
gave me it turned out they had like a pay
or play in the contract there was. They had to
give me a check to go away pretty much to
cancel my contract. So they gave me this check, and
I at this point, i'd moved back home. I was
living with my parents for a while because I was

(28:35):
just trying to figure things out, and I spent a
lot of time thinking about, Okay, what do I do
with this check? Do I start a new chapter of
my life? Do I try to put a down payment
on a house and just kind of, you know, move
on from all that?

Speaker 1 (28:51):
Was it a sizable check.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
It was forty thousand dollars.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
It's a good amount of much.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
It was a good amount of money. Yeah, And for
that for me, that was like, you know, what I
was making in a year or something crazy and probably
more I was. I was not making anything, and I
just kept feeling like I couldn't. I'd been trying for many,
many years to make a proper album and I could
never do it. And I just felt like, I don't

(29:15):
think I can move on with my life. I'm going
to always feel like what if, you know? And so
I decided to like use this money to make the
album myself, and I reached out to some people through
my space, and I was able to contact a couple
of professional, you know, professional people in the world who
were willing to take my money and help me, and

(29:39):
I made this album just kind of as a last
ditch effort. This sounds like that, sounds like this was
the album and I finished it and I really liked
it and was really felt like a very exciting time
for me. But I didn't really know what to do
with it after that. I was I've now broke again

(29:59):
because I'd spent with all the money making the album.
And my old manager used to really make fun of
me for He's like, you spent all of the money.
These people saw you coming a mile away. They were like, sure,
we'll help you, kid.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
But we need it all. Yes, it's gonna cost all
of that money. Yeah, but there's so many good songs.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Thank you sounds like this.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Okay, it's all right with me. I love oh, I
love all over Now. All Over Now is one of
my favorite songs of yours.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Love it, Thank you gorgeous.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
It's a gorgeous, fun, great song and it does well
the album.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
So do you remember Prez Hilton very well? I know
pres Oh, Okay, me too. So a friend of mine
from high school. I didn't know what to do. I
just moved to New York City. I was dating my
now wife, and I had really no prospects that they
had this album done that I felt I had to do.
And now I was sort of not sure what to do.

(30:54):
And I'm going around doing my shows and things, whatever
I can put together. And my friend from high school says, Hey,
Perez Hilton's always posting on there, and I feel like
he'd like your music. I'm just going to send it
to him. I'm like, great, let me know how that is.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:09):
I didn't really know Perez except my sister liked him,
but this was the height of the blog culture and
he was getting just so many eyeballs. And so my
friend called emailed him and said, like, this is my
friend Eric. He just finished an album. Here's some songs.
I think you'd really like it. You should put it
on your blog. Wow. And he did. And it was overnight,

(31:29):
Like I was in California. I woke up my flip
phone that already melted into the table with so many
ten nine text messages from people saying, oh my gosh,
and like overnight he had posted a few songs and
it had just started to explode on iTunes and it

(31:49):
was a great day, one of the best days of
my life, and all of a sudden, everybody was coming
out of the woodwork to want to be involved.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
So you know, there's that thing about is it luck?
Is it talent? Is it timing?

Speaker 1 (32:03):
Right?

Speaker 2 (32:04):
The older I get, the more it's a lot of luck,
you know.

Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah, but it's also what you do in those moments. Yeah,
you know, the Maverick falls apart, you still wanted to
go write that album, and you made that album because
you didn't know. If I don't do this, I don't
know how I'll look back and not have regrets. And
that worked out.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, But I just think I know so many talented
people that have had different paths than me, and I
often just wondered sort of why. But the main thing
is everyone I know who is persistence, you know, as
I'm sure you know, and it's just anybody who keeps
doing it and showing up. I'll take that ten out
of ten over talent.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yeah, yeah, tell me the story of watching you watch him.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
So I did say I'm not going to talk about
what my songs are about, but I'm going to talk
about what my song is about it's a great story.
So my wife woke up one day and turned on
the television and she caught a Wimbledon final, which we
now as the tennis world, think of as one of
the best matches ever. It's Rafa Nadal versus Roger Federer

(33:15):
in Wimbledon, and my wife didn't know either of these
people were. She laid eyes on Roger Federer, and the
way she puts it, she says, a piece of my
heart that I never knew existed opened uncomfortable for the
very first time. Yeah. This was after we got married,
and she asked me to write her vows because she's

(33:36):
not good at that kind of thing, and so I
was like cool, I like tennis, great, yeah, and it
just escalated really quickly. My wife is an obsessive person,
and she just went zero to sixty of like, oh,
this Roger Federer guy's interesting too, Like I need to

(33:57):
watch all of his matches. Yep, I need to take
all of them to heart, and like everything is very personal.
And suddenly you know, we're waking up at all hours
of the day to like watch the matches live Australian Open.
She's starting to travel to go see him, and this
is kind of the first time in his career where
he's actually starting to lose some So like she picked,

(34:20):
she missed like the super golden age for you. I mean,
it would have been easier because when she when he won,
I don't know. I always say, it's like, do you
have a friend or maybe you're this person that has
like a college football team and they're just their life
is that in the season, you know, and if they lose,
they're not going to go out, And that's what my wife.
My wife was like. So she just became so deeply,

(34:42):
deeply tied to Roger Federer and it was just it's fun.
It was funny. And honestly, when you want some of
the best times we had, we'd go and we saw
him play all over I had a show and do.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
You with her to watch her boyfriend?

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Yes, exactly, But that was this is how crazy she
was about him. She was like, oh my god, I
would never want to hook up with him because, like
I know, he has a wife and four kids and
I would never like want to disrupt that for him,
like that's his life. I would never want to do that,
you know. So it wasn't even like.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
She's also married.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
Yeah, that's beside the point, she con sides up. Yeah,
and so she just, you know, it's like it's it
really took over our lives in a way that I
wasn't expecting, and just her, she just couldn't control herself.
It was just really and we try to talk to
our daughter about it. Now she doesn't because it's over.

(35:30):
She doesn't understand what it was like. But it was
like this by the end, we had to have these
coping mechanisms and all this stuff. We're like, Okay, if
we think he's gonna lose, maybe we'd turned the game off,
you know. And she's my wife is generally a pretty happy, exciting,
fun loving person, but this just like channels. She's also competitive,
so it just like, yes, locked in all of that

(35:53):
to say, at some point I realized I was in
this fucked up love triangle with me and Roger Federer,
and he had no idea he was even a part
of it. And so I just wrote this song as
kind of a joke for my wife called watching You
Watch Him, which is, you know, all about being in
love with somebody who's in love with somebody else who's
not going to take care of them. Yes, when you.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
Say all the games, then it gets hot tells he
was the victim.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
Watch and so I made the song. But it's I
really like writing songs that have a duality to them,
where like if you have the secret key that can
open it up and make it about something different. Yeah,
So I love doing that, and that's what one of
these songs was like. So most people don't know that.
I've started talking about it in my shows and things
like that, but uh, yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
A great story.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, and it's a great song. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
There's a part of the song. Okay, I don't know
if I don't want to do this, but there's one
of the song at the end where you make a
choice and you do the you do this thing where
you go from the chorus just watching you watch him,
but then you do watching you watch.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
All right? What have we got a cappella background here?
What do you what's your I.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
Don't have any background. I don't know, but but listen,
that is religious for me. When you go up there
and that choice you made. I don't know if it
happened in the moment, I don't know if you guys
workshopped it. How did that come, because that is a
religious moment in that song.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Thank you of like.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
The sky opens up and oh my.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
God, yeah that's cool. Sometimes we we'll like do a
full stop live with that part. You know, just have
it for a second. And I can't remember other than
I mean, you say religious, but it is sort of
a church type.

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Doesn't it feel gospeling?

Speaker 2 (37:50):
And you know, yeah, yes, I can't remember how I
appreciate that that but uh yeah, I like that part
and just it was a different way to in the song.
And oh but I seen something.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
It's so evocative because there's a desperation in it. You're
like at the end and knowing what the song's about,
which is funny, but like it's such an evocative the
way you put those notes and those words.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
Well, you know, once I was writing the song as
a joke, but once I thought about it, I was like,
you know, I've been in more serious versions of this
in my life also, and I was able to tap
into some of those things. And the other thing is
every time I write music, I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna
make this a little more chill, something that's easier to
sing live, and I never do. It's like I just

(38:38):
I need that yeah thing that you feel it, you know,
I need to feel it when I'm singing. I wanted
to push, and it just makes touring very difficult because
I have to really take care of my voice and
be able to sing all this stuff. But I just
don't know any other way to do it. I can't
do the kind of mumbling right singing thing. Well, I

(38:59):
do that my normal speaking voice, and then when I'm singing,
I sing big.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
What do you do when you're in a bad mood?
Does that make you creative? Does that make you want
to withdraw? What do you do when you find I'm
just in a shitty mood right now?

Speaker 2 (39:28):
Well, it's sort of like you were saying, I can't.
I can listen to sad music when I'm sad, but
it's dangerous. But I don't feel creative. I'm not one
of these people that feels like, oh, you've got to
be heartbroken to write a song, or I certainly can't
really do it in them. Usually when i'm depressed or something,
I'm just depressed and I'm not going to try to
work on anything. Yeah, And it's only sort of coming

(39:50):
out of that moment that I will try to process that.
I made a rule somewhere I was doing. You know,
at one point, I was doing maybe two shows a
year or something. I was on the road a lot,
and I had all these early songs that I'd written
that were sort of beating myself up, and I realized,
so I have this negative feeling about myself, and then

(40:12):
I encapsulated on the song, and then I go out
every night and I display that for strangers. Yeah, and
I was like, I don't really like this cycle that
I've created, and so I started a new rule where
I wasn't allowed to say anything bad about myself in life,
but also especially like in my songs. That's great, And
so most of my music since then is trying to

(40:36):
find the silver lining or what to learn from it.
You know, I will write songs as the angry version,
but I just it's not what I care to put
out into the world anymore. Wherever maybe, but it depends.
There's certain ideas where I'm like, I know I can
get to the heart of this more. But like I

(40:59):
have a song called Deer that's written to my younger
self kind of giving me advice, and that came from
a place where I was really down. I'd had a
relationship kind of explode and I was just very lost
and I was angry, and I wrote a lot of
like angry fuck you songs to this person, but I
didn't I didn't feel better. The fuck you songs weren't

(41:20):
making me feel better, and I was like, what do
I actually want out of this? I want to feel wiser,
I want to feel bigger. I want to feel like
I won't make these kinds of mistakes again. I wish
there was a way I could go back to my
younger self and talk. And that was the idea of like, Okay,
this is a song about self empowerment and what to

(41:41):
look out for. And that's one of my favorite songs,
and certainly one of the songs I think the people
who come to my shows want to hear and connect
with because everyone's got that baby version of themselves. They're
just like, there's this you're doing there. Don't worry about
that thing, worry about this thing. Here's what the prioritize.
So I think, Yeah, so much of my music now
is rooted in depression or anxiety or just feeling lost

(42:07):
in the old Yeah, lost searching, and I'm trying to
make sense in the songs.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
You know. Well, I love that and it's so nice
that you have that as an outlet. I'm writing a
book about my mental health right now. It's about me,
and that's very hard to do, and it's not something
I've ever done before. You know, my previous books and
all of my other writing is about politics in the world.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
Much easier to talk about other people's.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
Isn't it. Yeah, And so I find, you know, when
I'm feeling great, the last thing I want to do
is write about my mental health and my struggles. But
it is in a way it's important for me to
do that and get it on paper as a writer
also as a person.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
But it's really hard.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
It's really hard to channel my struggles, my anxiety, depression,
whatever makes sense of it on a page and then
come out with what's the point? There has to be
a point to this. What did I learn from this?
Where did it get me? You know? How did I
travel through this? Do you ever not want to write
about a song about your mental health, about your anxiety,

(43:09):
about your struggles?

Speaker 2 (43:10):
Sure, yeah, yeah, I try to write songs about There's
just so much, so many aspects to life, you know,
and I feel like for me, the challenge of I'm
not feeling creative or I'm not sure how to do
something is usually to change my environment. Whether that's I mean,
the biggest thing for me is I've just learned to
shut down being creative if I don't feel like it.

(43:31):
And I actually have a new song I'm working on.
That's all about waiting for something to happen, you know.
And I heard this line that nothing in nature blooms
year round, and I really like that idea. You know,
there has to be a period where something is just
growing in the ground and from the outside you're like, well,
you're not doing anything so oil, You're just sitting there.
Where's the plant? Right? But it's incubating. And I think

(43:55):
I spend a lot of that time defending myself to
myself and to other people of like, I'm working right now.
It looks like I'm having a NEGRONI, but I'm working,
and I can't tell if this is going to end
up in something I'm going to do or not. Yeah. Yeah,
But I feel like exercise, walking, running, exercise is absolutely
huge for my mental health but also in my creative process.

(44:15):
It just absolutely gets me feeling a spark or just
the synapse is firing in a different way. So a
lot of times if I'm not feeling it, or I'll
feel like I have a bunch of ideas after a run,
or even like taking a cold shower or getting in
a pool, or talking to a friend or eating something spicy.
Anything that would like kind of change your immediate feeling

(44:36):
and kind of take me out of my body is
interesting for me. Kind of What about drugs? Love them?
You have any?

Speaker 1 (44:44):
No, No, I don't, but you know, hearing you talk
like that, I'm sure that's why a lot of freedom
people turn to.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, I've been a late adopter to marijuana. I enjoy it,
and I think it makes me much kinder to myself.
And I don't know. I mean I had to, like
I had a hard learning curve because I would first
like start I guess I can't even imagine what cocaine
is like, because like I would just eat a gummy

(45:11):
and then be like, I have a million good ideas
and I got to get all these started right now.
And I'd wake up the next morning and be like,
oh my god, I fired off like twenty emails. Nothing
I love more than starting a project so like I
was just firing off emails to people like oh my god,
I'm waking up the next day they're like, so you
want to play Mount rushmore, Like yeah, that shouldn't be

(45:33):
that hard, you know. So it took me a while
to just be like, have all the ideas, maybe just
jot them down and then you can sort them out later.
But even then I still remember the seed moment of like,
oh I felt like a great idea and I can
be connected to that. Yes, yes, Like there's this thing
I really want to do that nobody else wants me
to do. But I really want to play my song

(45:54):
rock and Roll on repeat, like I want to perform it.
You come to the concert, you know, I'm going to
play that song only I'm going to perform it the
entire show. And it's art, man, it's art, performance art,
it's performance art. And I mean, because people have done
sort of these types of things, I'll play the song
four times in a row or something. But I'm really

(46:15):
interested of like you come to the show and I
play the same song, maybe we've fin some ways to
make it different, and I just want to see what
happens interesting. But most people are like no, I don't
want that, even though that's the song they want to
hear mostly, is it really sure? I mean, that is
definitely my most requested song, but I think it's a

(46:36):
song people that have been following me for a long time.
That's not the song I have to hear. But you
know it's nice, you know, if you.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
Do that show, I want to come right. I want
to know what it's like to just go to a
show for that one song.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
I think it's Yeah. It's like, you know, you're texting
your friends and you're like, hey, I'm going to go
see this concert and this guy's gonna play. He's gonna
sing the same song for the whole show.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah, I'm I'm open mind, and you're like.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Eight, let's take an edible and figure this out. You
can go get a drink for a while, you can
talk to your friends. Like it doesn't you're not missing anything,
but maybe you're missing everything.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Or maybe you're missing everything. Okay, what do you make
of Because we're the same age, we didn't have social
media as we were coming into our careers. We're navigating
the new normals. What is social media? Places like TikTok
done to music?

Speaker 2 (47:23):
It's funny because you reached out to me through TikTok
Yes did you find me from that random?

Speaker 3 (47:28):
It was?

Speaker 2 (47:28):
I had like a mini viral song.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
No saying something like, well, I don't really want to
be doing this on TikTok, but here I am doing
this on TikTok And like I said, I had known
your music but then saw you always on TikTok okay,
and that's why I reached out. I was like, maybe
you know wants to pump pod.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
The short answer is, I think pop music is always
finding ways to just get to the point and and
like you know, it's it seems grotesque to me now
or like not why I got into it, But it's
the same thing as what my parents or my grandparents
thought of rock and roll music, and it always feels

(48:09):
like a dumbing down. What is hard for me, though,
is to just want to engage with it in the
same way. But that I did. I posted like a
really crappy video of me singing one of my songs
and it caught on. It wasn't like crazy, but it
had a little a mini viral thing on TikTok and
I was like, all right, this is why it's fun
because when it does hit suddenly all these people are

(48:32):
interested and like, I had just so many comments from
people saying, I know every word of the song. Where
have you been bubbles? Nice? Yeah, you know it's interesting and.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
You're engaging with fans.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
But then I posted another video, same exact setup, like
I taped it the same day, different song, but same
exact setup, no engagement whatsoever. So it does That is
the part to me that is tiring, is it does
feel very much like just pulling on a slot machine,
and you're like, I don't really feel like there's anything
that I can do either way on this, but you know,

(49:05):
TikTok's what's going on. I would love to have one
of my songs catch on and have all the young
girls singing it to the car. Totally sure, I'll take that.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Yes, let's manifest it.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yeah, I don't want to be the old person in
the room. But social media and the phone in general
are tiring to me, and I'm on them a lot,
but I really don't like being around other people who
are on theirs all the time. Like I'm just yeah,
but that's just where we're at.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
But that's just how old we are. Yeah, that's rage.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Sure, that's where we're at. It's okay, I don't know.
How do you feel about social media?

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Well, in a way, it's democratized news, which is great, right,
you know that I can know what's going on in
Syria when we don't have reporters embedded in Syria right
through social media. That's terrific.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
Okay, now your real answer, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
But I fucking hate it for everything else that it is.
It's a cesspool that strangers feel comfortable either talking about
your body or saying I hope you're raped, or sending
death threats, like, none of that is fun. I hate
how much disinformation is on social media because I'm in
the business of information and it's really hard to get

(50:17):
past the conspiracy theories and disinformation. I hate the immediacy
which an idea can spread, unvetted, unedited, unchecked, no standards.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
That's hard.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
And I hate I hate what it's going to mean
for my kid, you know, and all the influences he'll
have to filter through on social media that we didn't
as kids.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
Have you seen there's this new movement are you into?
Like the Jonathan Height world? And apparently there's this movement
of getting your child a landline and that like young
kids are loving it.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
Really, yeah, just to talk to their friends.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Yeah, and that's how they can talk to their friends,
you know, instead of the phone. And because I mean,
I can appreciate it because we stayed in the hotel
with my daughter and she was sharing a room with
her with her grandpa yep, and we're like, you can
call us, and she loved it, and she's like, I'm
going to call you in the morning, and like, you know,
that's so cute. But they're saying that, like, yeah, so
there's a reason you need to be home and to communicate.

(51:10):
I don't know, I really I feel like embracing whatever
is going on is the secret to staying youthful. Yeah,
And I don't want to just kind of shut my
ears to it all. But that being said, most of
my favorite people are not on social media and I
just have to like talk to each other and catch up,
which is so nice that but it takes more work
and so I.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Don't know, but you know what's nice about that. It's
so true. I have a friend who's not on anything,
and so we have to physically call each other and
then I get the luxury, the pleasure of telling her
what my life has been like, which I don't get
to do often because usually I'm talking to someone who's
seen it all on Instagram or whatever. They're very aware.
I don't get to tell the story of how that

(51:51):
happened or where we went, and vice versa. So it
is it is nice when you have an analog.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
And I mean I ironically I make a list, writing
down my feelings and singing them for people. But I'm
actually a very private person and I don't I'm very
controlled of like this is what I'm presenting to you,
but I have my own life and.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Because this is how much of me you got.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Yeah yeah, And I am not that interested in posting
my vacation and all these other things. It just doesn't
appeal to me at all. I'm an introverted person. I
also understand that I think the Internet or social media
appeals to people who are extroverted because they're like, I
want to be out there, I want to share, I
want to be talking all the time, and it's just
not my it's how I think about things.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Yeah, well that's good.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
I guess.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
I want to go to a lightning round right to
finish off this terrific conversation. The first question is a quiz.
You went to montgom Reeblair High School. Who is Montgomery Blair?

Speaker 2 (53:11):
I think he did something in the Lincoln administration, all right,
I don't know, Secretary of State now I was a seward, right,
I don't know what he did.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
So he was made famous by being the lawyer who
represented dred Scott in the dred Scott case. But then
he became postmaster general under Abraham.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
There we go, Okay, postmaster general.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
It's a big job.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Yeah it was then. Yeah, yeah, they had the post office.
What else are you going to do? That was social media?

Speaker 1 (53:37):
That was all media. That's right, Okay. Who is the
best singer songwriter of all time?

Speaker 2 (53:43):
I mean a person I don't think it's thrown in
this category, but is absolutely a singer songwriter. Is Stevie Wonder? Yes,
fantamastic favorite and has written a lot of political music,
a lot of protest music, but always within this umbrella
of hope and positivity. And there's a lot of his

(54:04):
deeper catalog that once I discovered that really I think
helped me find my own singing voice and my own
way of approaching songs. So I mean He's amazing. Paul
Simon is my other like yat, he's my number one say.
I love how he can take very everyday ideas and

(54:25):
make them feel really poetic and important and less small. Yeah,
and just there's I love that of like I love
Seinfeld as well, who's not a singer songwriter, But I
just I love making little, the little minutia of life
into art or something.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
I love that. And I've not ever thought about connection
between why I like Paul Simon and Seinfeld. That's terrific.
I love the Paul Simon songs Simon and Garfunkle My
Little Town because of just that. It's so simple. It's
about this very simple upbringing. It's I think rich I
was talking to Richard Marks about it. He said, it's

(55:05):
like the same chord over and over and over again.
It's not like a complicated song. Oh, but it's so good.
I think A lyric from that song was my high
school yearbook quote. Really Yeah that cool twitching like a
finger on the trigger of a gun. Yeah, isn't that
described you in high school?

Speaker 2 (55:21):
Just to get into the world. Wow, that was your
year book quote?

Speaker 1 (55:25):
Yeah? I was pretentious, Yeah, I was a pretentious sounds more.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
I was thinking, that just sounds like, yeah, you're ready
to go. You're like, I can't wait.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Well, I hate high school. As we said, yeah, I
couldn't wait to get out into the world. I was
twitching like a finger on the trigger.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
Of a gun. That's a nice it's nice.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
To me, right, Okay, what's something you recently failed at?
And that could be professionally or personally.

Speaker 2 (55:48):
I have to push back because I just really don't
care for the term failure great talk to me. I
just think it's used by people that don't try things,
and it's what people are afraid of. I see, I
try to see. I don't know. I mean, there's things
that I'm like, I wish that had worked better, But
I like trying things and seeing if they work or not.

(56:09):
Like that is exciting to me, and you always get
more information back and you can figure it out. I think,
to me, the failures that I'm disappointed in are when
I have not stuck to my goal or my vision
and been talked out of it or compromised. Those are
the things that I look back and regret. But like
if I made some song exactly how I wanted to

(56:29):
make it and it didn't work. I'm like, I know
why I did that. You know, yep, not failure, But
I don't know. Let's see what is something I have?

Speaker 1 (56:37):
I mean, I feel as a mom. Now, I don't
like that word for it, all right, all right, all right.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
I have a little note in my notes that just
says you are raising your daughter every day and because
some days I'm like, I haven't done anything today, and
then I see the note. Yes, but yeah, I let's
see something I have failed at. I mean, there's just
there's a lot of things I avoid because I don't
think I'm good at them, and I probably will not

(57:03):
be anymore. Yeah, Like golf is a thing I'm not
interested in because I feel like it just takes so
much time just to get bad at it right, and
everyone takes it real seriously. And I don't know. I'm
trying to think of something else.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
You don't have to have something. I really like your.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
Answer, Thank you. It's great.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
Favorite New York City venue to play.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
The venue I want to play is Carnegie Hall because
obviously yes, and so I'm trying to figure that one.
I don't care. It could be one song opening for
somebody else, that could be whatever. So I'm trying to
get to that. But my current favorite venue and I
have never played there, and I don't know if I
need to, But is the Blue Note in the Village
is it's got just the best programming in my eyes.

(57:46):
It's this little tiny club, maybe three hundred people. They
did two shows a night, seven nights a week, and
whenever I'm in there, I'm in there at you know,
Monday at ten thirty pm, and it's packed, and it's
half Torrin and it's half locals yep. And I'm like,
this is why I came to New York City. This
is what I've had in my head of like, this

(58:07):
is what I'll be doing. And I just love the
room and the programming they're doing is really interesting. They're
they're doing jazz, but they're also leaning a lot towards
more like modern R and B and things like that.
So they're doing these really cool people that are willing
to do a week there and do a bunch of
small sessions. Cool.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
So did you ever go to Smalls?

Speaker 2 (58:25):
Yes? I love Yes. I just walked by there last
night actually, and there was a ton of people waiting
to get They're still there, Yeah, still.

Speaker 1 (58:31):
There oh, I don't know why I thought it closed.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
It not still there. I think they have like a
one or two other like sister Venues.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Oh god, I loved Smalls.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
Yeah, well that's good to know.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
What's the worst kind of crowd to play.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Drunk?

Speaker 1 (58:47):
Great?

Speaker 2 (58:47):
Yeah, well there's a fine line right of like happy,
like you know, I when I we did it, I
don't like to perform super late. I'm tired, you know.
Like we did a show at like ten o'clock and
in Annapolis last fall, and I was like everyone was
just wasted by the time we got on stage and
we can't like get them together. But att thirty, they've
had a little bit to drink, they're a little bit lubricated.

(59:10):
They're ready to have fun.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Perfect amount.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:12):
Yeah. What was your favorite TV show growing up?

Speaker 2 (59:16):
The Simpsons? Okay, yep, ye, Saved by the Bell, great classic,
and Yes Seinfeld Yep's Big yep yep.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
Okay, this is the last question. It's really important. We
ask it at the end of every podcast. When is
iced coffee season?

Speaker 2 (59:32):
Whenever you want it to be.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Oh, that's the right answer.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
I'm actually an iced tea person, so you're allowed.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
That's fine.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
But the correct answer is around Duncan Stan.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
Yes I am, I'm from Boston. Yeah, I had to
be well, Eric Hutchinson, this was so nice.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Thanks for Finny. This was a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
No, I'm a fan and I hope.

Speaker 2 (59:55):
To see live at some point. Let's do it. Okay, great?

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Thanks. Next week on Off the Cup, I sit down
and talk to Jenny Garth, host of the I Choose
Me with Jenny Garth podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
I've lived so much of my previous life with my
eyes down and hat down and trying not to connect
and trying to hide out, and I decided I was
done with that. I just decided I'm fifty three now,
I've been through a lot. I have so many things
I'd like to share with other women who are going

(01:00:31):
through similar things.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as
part of the Reason Choice Network. If you want more,
check out the other Reason Choice podcasts, Politics with Jamel
Hill and Native Land pod. For Off the Cup, I'm
your host Si Cup. Editing and sound design by Derek Clements.
Our executive producers are me, Si Cup, Lauren Hanson, and
Lindsay Hoffman. Rate and review wherever you get your podcasts.

(01:00:58):
Follow or subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday.