Jemele Hill on the WNBA, mental health in sports, and why there's no escaping politics

This week, S.E. sits down with sports journalist, commentator and Spolitics podcast host, Jemele Hill. S.E. and Jemele have a lot of shared knowledge and experience, both coming and finding their place in the TV journalism world. They talk about where those worlds intersect, where they diverge, and how politics is, despite anyone's best efforts, inescapable. Jemele brings us back to her cub reporting days, newsroom antics, and how she climbed her way into a white, male dominated world. She talks about facing backlash, stepping into her courage to get louder, and riding the media wave. And prepare yourself for one of the most controversial lightning round answers we've ever heard!

If you like this conversation — which you will — you have got to go listen and follow Jemele's fantastic politics, Spolitics, wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Sports was seen as the toy department when I was
into business, like oh sports, eh, right, that not to
be taken seriously.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome to off the cup, my personal anti anxiety antidote.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
Let me tell you, being a woman in my business
is tough.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
It's for all the reasons you can think of, the sexism,
the agism, harassment, undermining insecurities, but it's also just hard
sometimes to be a woman with opinions about things that
men care about. That's true of politics, it's especially true
of sports, and as you know, I live in the
world of politics where putting my finger on the hot

(00:41):
stove is literally what I'm paid to do. I'm hired
for my opinions on controversial, polarizing, emotional issues, and that
doesn't always ingratiate me with readers and viewers and listeners
who disagree. That's the job, but that manifests some times
as nasty comments, comments that are vulgar, that are about

(01:04):
what I look like or how I dress, but also
threatening comments, hate mail, death threats, and sometimes some very
scary situations, and very few people luckily know what this
is like. My next guest, I'm sure does. Jamal Hill
is a world famous sports journalist, a woman with opinions

(01:25):
in a male dominated field. She also puts her hand
on the hot stove. And although it may seem like
sports is lower stakes than politics, it is not.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
I know this.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
I also covered sports when I was coming up, works
at Sports Illustrated, I worked at NASCAR dot Com, maxim
and I'm sure she'll tell you sports isn't always just
about sports. It's gender, it's race, it's politics. It's all
the issues that get us really worked up and emotional, angry,
sometimes passionate, and she does.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
It with a bravery that very few people have.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
I've always really admired her, and sometimes our work even
crosses over and we get to do TV together.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
Which is fun.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Jamel has written for The Raleigh News and Observer, the
Detroit Free Press, the Orlando Sentinel, The Atlantic.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
She was an ESPN ESPN two host.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
She's an Emmy winner, up podcaster, author of Uphill, a memoir.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Welcome to Off the Cup, Jamel Hill, what any tremendous intro?
Thank you so much. That was really kind of you
to say all those things. I don't know that I've
ever been called world famous.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
You are.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
You're a world famous sports journalist. I mean that's undeniable everything.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah, I mean sometimes that always for reasons I would think.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
But yeah, I guess you mean, I know what you mean.

Speaker 4 (02:44):
I know you can relate.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
I can't.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
And That's what I'm excited about for this podcast because
I interview a lot of people, a lot of famous people,
people with incredible careers, and you clearly fit into that category.
But I don't know that I've interviewed someone yet for
this podcast who who knows this life the way you
know this life. And by this life, I mean what
we do for a living and being women in it.

(03:08):
And so I just know we have so much to
talk about and we're gonna get.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
To all of it.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
But first I just got to know, Jamille. I need
to know your take because my for you page is
completely overwhelmed by Caitlin and Sophie Cunningham, the drama and
the shoves and the and I'm here for it. I
am here for it. I want to know your take,

(03:34):
especially because people you know, people I know, rich Eison,
Dave Portinoay, I know these guys.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
I like these guys.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
All these men are running to talk about WNBA. They're
talking about how it's the best league in town, it's
the greatest league to watch.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
Blah blah blah, blah blah. You've done this a long time.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
What is your take on what's going on in the
WNBA and also the way the men are covering it?

Speaker 1 (04:02):
Well, I can't speak to Rich because who I know
and I like, yeah very much, because I haven't heard
a ton of his commentary about.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
Kaitlyn clarker what's happening in the WNBA.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
I have unfortunately seen games, and I can't say I'm
a fan. Tell me, and I will just make this
broad generalization. I think the men are struggling to talk
about the WNBA, and mostly it is because they haven't
been talking about the WNBA. So there's a certain amount

(04:34):
of institutional knowledge that they lack that shows up. And
one of the ways it shows up is in this
moment where we're coming off another scuffle that involves Kaitlyn
Clark and the pearl clutching and the oh my god.
Is what is really amazing to me because this league

(04:54):
from its inception, My first professional beat I ever covered
was a WNBA, and so this was back in nineteen
ninety eight when I was in Raleigh.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
The Charlotte team.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
Charlotte's about two and a half hours from Raleigh, and
because this new league was starting, I asked my bosses
if I could cover the Charlotte WNBA franchise because I
thought it was such a unique moment in our sports
history that you would have women who are able to
play professional basketball on American soil and be propped up
in this way and in a way that they never had,
and so have a woman cover that and have a

(05:25):
woman covering this, I think was important. And I already
covered a lot of college women's basketball at that point,
so this was just sort of a natural evolution. So
I learned a lot about the league, its origins, the players,
how it started, most importantly understanding how the game is
played in the sense that it's a much more physical
league and the NBA they have really toned down the physicality.

(05:47):
I mean, I was an NBA fan of the eighties,
where you had the bad Boy Pistons, you had the Celtics,
you had teams that were you know and even bleeding
over into the late eighties.

Speaker 4 (05:55):
Early nineties with the knicks and the heat and how
they played right like it was a physical game.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Oh yeah, correct, Those were physical games, you know, Charles Oakley,
Anthony Mason like, people knew that there was a certain
brand of physicality attached to the NBA, and they went
through a period where because all the games were like
ninety to eighty, they were like, no, no, we need
we need some more offits okay, So they relaxed a
lot of the physical rules and fans complained about it.
They still do complain about it. They're like, oh, that's

(06:20):
two tiki tak, it's not physical enough. What happened to
playoff files and blah blah blah blah blah and thenforcers
and goons. The WNBA is how the NBA used to
be during that time, and this says, well, it's it's
a physical league. And because we have a lot of
people in their minds, especially men, have it in their
minds of how women are supposed to compete and because

(06:43):
I think they have to admit, some of it makes
them uncomfortable seeing how women compete.

Speaker 4 (06:48):
And that comes through in their commentary.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
So when they're talking about these women, a lot of
you know, they're calling them names, and especially when it
comes to Caitlin Clark, the babing and the coddling of
her is insulting. This woman is a competitor, like with
that whole rumble that started with her with the fever
and the sun. In some ways, Caitlyn instigated that because

(07:11):
she's gonna talk her trash and she's gonna wag her tongue.
She and I love it, and I'm here for it.
I embrace it, do all the things as long as
we keep that same energy for everybody. So don't say
it's cool for Kaitlyn to do it, but then when
somebody else does it, then it's like, oh, I can't
believe they're doing this to Kaitlyn Clark. It's like Kaitlyn
Clark will be insulted by the baby and the coddling

(07:34):
and people basically wanting someone to lay down.

Speaker 4 (07:37):
Their jacket over the puddle so she could step off.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
She doesn't want to be rescued.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
She doesn't want to be rescued, and they keep trying
to do this. So a lot of the commentary is
about how Caitlyn Clark needs to be protected. Why she
didn't ask for that. She asked, She asked.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
For the smoke.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
She wants the smoke, all of it, okay, And so
let her get it all right. And so that's the
part that really insenses me about hearing the coverage. And
then on top of that, this whole narrative that the
players are jealous of Caitlyn Clark, which is I'm like, guys,
are we talking about the WNBA or are we talking
about Real Housewives of Atlanta? Hey, y'all making a scene

(08:14):
like we talking about Real Housewives of Atlanta. We're not
talking about Yeah, Okay, their job, her job is to score.

Speaker 4 (08:20):
Their job is to stop her.

Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
And because and she even said this in the Time
magazine piece that was done on her when she won Athlete.

Speaker 4 (08:26):
Of the Year.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
Now, when she was in college, the way she was guarded,
she was like, frankly, it was soft because the depth
of competition is not there in the WNBA. Every night
she's facing somebody who was a college star, and you
know what, they don't want to be.

Speaker 4 (08:40):
Embarrassed by her.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
So yeah, they're picking her up ninety feet because they're
not trying to get a low go three shot in
they face. That is not them being jealous of Kaitlin Clark.
That is them guarding Kaitlyn Clark. And yes, because she
pushes off sometimes again she talks her trash, they gonna
get physical with her because that's what you do with
a shooter. So I have been very annoyed with how

(09:02):
and this also is what bothers me and talk about
a double standard. There are men that I have seen
comment on Caitlin Clark on the WNBA in the last
let's say two years, probably longer than that, because they
really started when she became a phenomenon, just period, just
starting from the college level. They will say in one breath,
I mean, I never watched it a WNBA, or I
don't watch women's basketball, but here are my opinions that

(09:22):
you should take seriously. Exactly. I'm like, I'm sorry, excuse me,
because I can tell you something right now. And see
I can't get on nobody's air waves and say, you
know what, I never watched the NFL, But let me
tell you what I think about Patrick Mahomes. They would
laugh me out the building in the women's sports arena.
Because men hold a lot of these prominent positions in

(09:42):
sports media, it is entirely acceptable that their lack of
knowledge is like weaponized and competence.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
Like, of course you don't watch it, of course you
don't we know you call.

Speaker 4 (09:51):
Us, but still tell us, still give us your opinion.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
What would happen if someone saw you at a basketball
game on your phone playing Solitaire?

Speaker 1 (10:02):
I mean they they gave stephen A all the crap
for that. And I can say having been at you know,
obviously being at ESPN, being at twelve years and with
having my own show, it's like I used to say
that about being my co host. We used to talk
about this and All Air Off talked about this. My
former co host, Michael Smith, dear friend of mine, Mike

(10:23):
could mispronounce somebody's name, he could get a stat wrong
and it'd be fine.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
I do that.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
It's go right for Cosmo. It's why you on my TV.
It's you know, so any woman who got caught doing
that what stephen A was doing and listen, I get it,
Like I'm not going to pretend that every single second
of every sport of it is compelling.

Speaker 3 (10:42):
But yet it's no, you can't make mistakes. You're not
allowed to.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
Be You're not that like they have they have clown
stephen A. You know, he left it. He left. Listen,
they getting all the repshots in right, and that's fine,
But I could promise you if it was a woman,
and it would be entire thing pieces about why women
belong in sports coverage, why women shouldn't be there, this
is why women. I'd have to hear all the things.

(11:06):
So he got off light compared to what I will
receive if they call me playing solitaire. And by the way,
my game is Bejeweled, So they probably would.

Speaker 5 (11:14):
Have called you.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
They'd have a whole thing to say about that.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Oh my god, I'd be paying from some places.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
It's like, all right, well, I'm glad I got you
on that.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
It's that team is so fun to watch now with
with Caitlin and Sophie, and I love sid Colston is
like one of the funniest.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Oh she's the funniest woman ended up Boba, Like I want.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
To watch her on the bench more than I want
to watch her play, because her antics on the bench,
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
She is.

Speaker 4 (11:38):
She is incredible.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
But I will say this, and this can be my
last word on it, is that I thought last year
Indiana they have pushed her out a little bit some
at times, and I think they were still trying to
figure out team chemistry, team dynamics, those kind of things
because people have to realize that once they draft Kaitlyn
Clark is like training camp is not even a month later.
Like it's a very quick turnaround. So they got off

(12:02):
to a very bad start and because of that, I think,
you know, the fact they were able to recover from that.
I think that Olympic break was actually really good for them.
And I know people are like, she should have been
on the Olympic team. I was like, trust me, it
will serve her well not being on this Olympic team.
She'll be on the next one for sure. Yeah, but
it will serve her well because of the needed transition.
She needed the break.

Speaker 4 (12:21):
And so this year what I love about having Sophie them.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
Having who is known for some goonish behavior, and I
love it and I'm here for it, much like Marina Maybrey.

Speaker 4 (12:33):
No goon Okay, she is somebody not to be played with.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
And so to see them all mix it up together,
I thought it showed Indiana was sending a message like, hey,
you not just gonna punk us like we here, And
so I think that that's good for their team chemistry
and I think it's good for their personality. Yes, good
for the sport.

Speaker 4 (12:55):
And so these men sitting up there talking about what
a bad look is for the lead.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Same men again who constantly complained about the NBA players
are too friendly, it's not enough physicality in the league.

Speaker 4 (13:06):
Okay, keep that same energy.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Okay, let's go back a little bit before we get
into your career. What kind of kid were you?

Speaker 1 (13:25):
So nobody who knows. We would be surprised that I
would have that attitude about seeing the physicality because I
was a rough and tumble kid.

Speaker 4 (13:32):
I was the neighborhood tomboy.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
You know. I loved playing sports. You know, people asked me, well,
when did you start liking sports.

Speaker 4 (13:38):
I was like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
It was just naturally always been a part of me.
It was like its naturalist breathing. It's like, you know,
I love competition. I love playing sports. Being the neighborhood.

Speaker 4 (13:47):
You know, we play street football, we play freeze bag,
we played baseball.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
We play a ton of things.

Speaker 4 (13:52):
And I was always in the mix.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
Because I was a pretty athletic girl, and baseball wound
up being my sports. So I played fast pitch, softball,
play slow pitch too in you know, coming up, I
played shortstop, play center field. Always had a strong arm,
so yeah, back then, I actually had some wheels now,
but so, yeah, I was. I was a kid who
just enjoyed competition and I love sports, and back in

(14:17):
those days, you had to actually read about your sports
teams in something called a newspaper. Yeah, I know, you
held it in your hand.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (14:26):
Like.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
And so, because I was a big baseball fan, the Tigers,
Detroit Tigers were the first team that I really loved.
And my mother used to clean houses, and so she
cleaned the houses for this like elderly white man who
lived in the southwest part of Detroit, and he got
a subscription to the News in the Free Press, the
two local papers, and so she had to bring me
along because like childcare ha ha ha, what is that,

(14:49):
especially especially when you are as poor as we were,
Definitely wasn't a feasibility.

Speaker 4 (14:56):
So I would have to go with her.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
And so I would sit there like at his kitchen table,
and I would just read the sports sections front to back,
back to front in both papers. So that's sort of
what developed a curiosity with journalism, was reading about sports.
And I put it together like, oh you can you
can actually write about sports.

Speaker 4 (15:11):
This is interesting to me.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
And so I was already a voracius reader. Anyway, as
a kid, I was a cool nerd as I like
to think.

Speaker 4 (15:19):
And so yeah, I didn't get I didn't get stuffed
in any.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Lockers because I would. I'm like, remember I was a
competitive athlete. Yeah, I got it to plenty of fights
with boys.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
Trust me, they ain't want it.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Uh huh.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
So yeah, like I mean, I was curious. I was
somebody who really understood the powered language, the power words,
and the power of storytelling very early because of the
voracious way that I read book, was always in the library,
was always reading, journaling, writing like this was very much
a part of my existence.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Was writing the focus when when you were coming up,
you know you're thinking, Okay, when I get out to
the world, I'm gonna I'm I want to do this
in written form? Or did Jeb broadcast in mind as well?

Speaker 4 (15:59):
I ever wanted to do broadcast? Never and no it
just to do it and here sold out.

Speaker 3 (16:08):
Well listen.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
I mean, I came up as a writer and never
imagined I'd be on TV. In fact, se was the
byline I chose in college because I thought I'll be
gender neutral and anonymous, because no one's ever going to
see me, I'm just going to be this writer. And
then once TV calls and for me, I said yes
because it promoted the writing and it got me more
writing jobs.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
But eventually it pays better, and so you know, you
end up who says no. It's tough to say no.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yeah, because I think for a long time I thought
to her, a dude, yeah because of that. Yeah, because
you because you you wrote for Sports Illustrated. Correct, I did.

Speaker 3 (16:44):
I wrote a long a long time before I got
on TV.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
I ran because I remember reading you there because I
had a Sports Illustrated.

Speaker 4 (16:51):
So that was so that was my goal.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
My goal was never ESPN. My goal was Sports Illustrated.
Like I wanted so badly to work for Sports Illustrated.
They were number one on the vision board. And I
tell journalists, younger journalists when they asked me about my
career and how to break in the industry, and I
tell them I was like, I'm not trying to be
a jerk, but like, I'm literally not the person you

(17:14):
should ask, because I've known since the tenth grade that
I wanted to be a sports writer, not just a writer,
not just you know, like I wanted to specifically be
a sports writer.

Speaker 4 (17:24):
I started writing for my high.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
School newspaper covering sports, did some journalism programs eleventh and
twelfth grade. I was working answering phones in the sports
department of the Detroit Free Press. I joined the National
Association of Black Journalists when I was sixteen.

Speaker 4 (17:40):
Because their convention was in Detroit.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
And when I went to Michigan State, a majored in journalism,
you know, started off in sports, and then, you know,
then they told it was actually not super easy to
find newspapers that had sports internships. A lot of them
had news internships, as you know, but having a sports
one was a little bit somewhat unique for the time.
You know, we're talking about the early mid nineties. And

(18:03):
my first sports internship was at the Playing Dealer in Cleveland.
So I did a lot of minor league ball, covering
the Canton Akron Indians and yeah, as they were known then,
obviously the Guardians now, and so that team, that Cleveland
team was really good in baseball that summer, and so
I got to cover a lot of stuff, and then
you know, went to Raleigh cover sports.

Speaker 5 (18:24):
There.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
They hired me out of my internship, and so my
entire time I'm thinking I'm working to be as Sports Illustrated, right,
I mean I love those stories. I just couldn't imagine
like writing on that kind of platform, doing these long
form stories. Yeah. Gary Smith was like that was my guy,
you know. I loved him so much the stories that
he told. And when I was twenty two, Sports Illustrated

(18:49):
actually offered me a job. When I was twenty two
and working in Raleigh, I had just won.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
It took you a really long time to get there.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Well, I never did, so, I often all. I got
the call. And the reason Richard D. Meck that was
his name, and the reason I didn't go was because
they were offering me the gig as writer reporter and
as you know, that was more like fact checking, right,
that kind of stuff. And I wanted to write for
Sports Illustrated. And it was the first time I ever

(19:19):
been to New York.

Speaker 4 (19:20):
They flew me in.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
I think they put me up at the the It
was called the Park of Meridian then it was we
had how Central Park. You're right, it's this love of
Meridian now. Yeah. And so as much as I was
enamored with the place and in love with working there,
I was on a really good trajectory in Raley.

Speaker 4 (19:37):
I was writing whatever I wanted. I had just won a.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
State award for Best Sports Feature, and I just as
like to stop that to fact check. I don't want.
It was because it meant living in New York. Now, granted,
they was trying to pay forty seven thousand dollars a year,
and while it was more than when I was making,
it's also New York City. So I was like, oh,
so I'm gonna be living with six other people.

Speaker 3 (19:58):
I got it.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
So but I turned him down, and I remember Richard
said this to me, and I never forgot this. He said,
I'm glad you turned it down. We can afford you now.
I promise you we won't be able to afford you later. Awesome,
that's what he told me. And uh, you know, I
never as much as I was still thinking like, okay,
maybe today's of the day, but I will one day

(20:20):
work for sports Illustrated, that moment never happened. And I
can't say that it was. It was bad that it
didn't happen, but it is amazing to your point about
like how your dreams and how things evolve, you know,
as you know, back then it was much more of
a much more of a staunch demarcation line between print
and broadcast, yes, right, and print.

Speaker 4 (20:41):
People didn't fool with broadcasts.

Speaker 3 (20:43):
Like that exactly just and it does everything.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, now everyone does everything. But then it was the
idea we thought, we thought of ourselves as the real journalist.

Speaker 3 (20:54):
So clothes run TV right exactly.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
With that little pretty hair, and you know, all they're
doing is regard entertaining our stories, like we had some
real beef with them, right in terms of it was
looked down upon if you jumped to television. And that
started to change, And I would say like the mid
two thousands in my career where I saw more of
my colleagues doing TV doing radio, And when I transitioned

(21:17):
into column writing in Orlando, which was my first column job,
that's when I started to see the potential of TV.
But even then I still didn't entertain it. Like when
I got to ESPN, they didn't hire me to be
a television person. They hired me to be a writer.
I was writing for ESPN dot com and it was
only after talk about a name. I guess that lives

(21:38):
a little bit now in infamy. It was seeing Matt
Lawer's contract that changed my mind at that time. I
think he had negotiated a deal where he got like
twenty three twenty four million dollars a year and all
this you think, right exactly, And I was like, that's
possible in television. I'm not saying I'm gonna make twenty three,

(22:00):
but if I made two, I'm good.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
If I write one.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
If I made six hundred thousand, like it just it
blew my mind that they would be paying that kind
of money for somebody on TV. I was like, I've
been looking at this all wrong. And so after kind
of after that, it put a battery, uh, you know,
in my back, and I went full throttle into doing television.
So yeah, the lesson your kids, it's all right to

(22:24):
go for the money.

Speaker 3 (22:26):
Yeah, I mean, and I'm sure you made the same
calculation I did.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
As long as I could keep writing, I would, you know,
I'd go, I'd do TV, and I write for TV.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
I always wrote my own scripts.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
But it was also, you know, I would always approach
any new contract with yes, but you must carve out
all my writing elsewhere because I'm never giving up the
you know, book writing and columns.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
I'm never giving that up. So I made the same calculation.
The money is great.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
It's a much more stable job because you get these
contracts that can last for several years, and you get exposure.
Your writing gets exposure.

Speaker 3 (23:04):
It's all.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
All of that is good, but it comes with some
really not great parts. I'm sure you know what I'm
talking about. Don't go anywhere. There's war with Jammel Hill.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
After the break. I'm wondering if you look back at
that decision to say yes to TV.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
In that moment, do you ever look back and think, Oh,
I kind of regret walking down this path, or do
you take all the good.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
With all the bad?

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Oh? No, I don't regret it because it changed my
life and say, oh, yeah, it changed my life. And
I don't mean that from the standpoint of oh it
made me more know or it made me more famous,
Like I don't care about that party. The part that
changed for me was being able to break certain generational
elements in my family. And I read about this in

(24:10):
my memoir is you Know? You asked me what kind
of kid I was? And while everything I said was
obviously true and I wrote about it in my book,
the other part of it was that my mom had
substance abuse issues. You know, I grew up on welfare
like it was a lot of issues, trauma that ran
through my family as a child, and I think the

(24:31):
lack of financial stability that I experienced growing up was
what was deep rooted and it was also very traumatic
for me to deal with. So the one thing that
TV gave me was wealth.

Speaker 4 (24:43):
That's what it gave me.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
And that might seem to some people shallow, but when
you're coming from where I came from, that means a lot.
It meant a lot to me That I was able
to buy my mother a house, it means a lot
to me. Or not a house, excuse me. I was
able to buy her a car. It meant a lot
to me that, you know, essentially retired her like a
decade ago or so it might be longer, like about
a decade ago. And so that that's what TV got me.

(25:08):
I could never as much as I love writing and
it will always be my passion, my foundation and very
much in my DNA, writing wasn't gonna give me that. Yep,
I don't think so, because, as you know, there's only
so much to going to pay a writer. For sure,
you write a best selling book, it comes to a movie, Like,
there's other ways you can certainly make that happen, but
with TV it's a quicker path, you know.

Speaker 4 (25:30):
It's like it's like you can get to the money
to do that.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
And so even now, like living in Los Angeles and
having the life I've been able to create for myself,
none of that happens without TV. So as much as
it does bring you a lot of drama, as much
as yes, it has brought me death threats, Yes, it
has brought me mysogyny and racism and all these other
things that I would prefer not to be caught the

(25:53):
N word every other day. I would literally prefer that.
Yes it's true, but that to me is pales into
what the life I've been able to build for myself
as a result. Yeah, I get that. I don't regret it.

Speaker 3 (26:07):
Yeah, yeah, And there's no shame in that. I mean,
I get that.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
When you were at ESPN, tell me how it came
to be that you started waiting into politics.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
Was this your decision where you pushed to do this?

Speaker 2 (26:21):
Did it happen organically because politics and sports were just
crossing over constantly?

Speaker 3 (26:26):
Like how did that happen? In that ESPN chapter?

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Well, the one thing I'm grateful for is coming up
the newspaper way. You I essentially professionally grew up in newsrooms,
and you know, newsrooms are electric.

Speaker 4 (26:40):
It's where conversations head.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
It's the best. Like the fact that journalists now they
don't even get that same experience anymore.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
There aren't newsrooms, honestly because.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
The one there aren't newsrooms. People are working remotely, and
you know, it's just not the same the energy of
a newsroom. That is what sucked me in and made
me want to be away.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
I'm so glad you said this, and I want you
to continue, but I'm so glad you said this because
people today, if they're of a certainty, under a certain age,
they have no idea what you're talking about. And when
I tell you, like, the first newsroom that I worked
in was in college, from my college newspaper. It was
an independent paper. I eventually became editor of the Arts

(27:19):
and Entertainment section. And over in the other corner is
the editor of the sports section, and he's constantly throwing
footballs at my desk to try to hit my computer right.
And then over here in this corner is the editor
of the news department, and I'm prank calling him from
my desk to his desk constantly.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
And when I tell you, like it was the most
fun I've ever had.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
I have not had that much fun at work since
that newsroom up until four in the morning. I would
have stayed up until eight in the morning, didn't care.
It was the best experience, and you fed off each other,
and you were in the trenches together and you learned
from each other. These are still some of my best friends.
People today are robbed of that experience.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
It is not the same.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
I mean, I just immediately about one hundred memories came
flooding back. As I said, I went to Michigan State.
I worked at the State News, which was our independent
college newspaper. I was managing editor, I was campus editor
at a bunch of different reporting jobs, and it was
the same for me. Is that, Hey, we pulled silly
pranks on each other. We had this tradition that we

(28:31):
called cookie Day. So every we had a staff representative,
and so that person came around and collected whatever money
that we had that we could give up dollar, a
couple dollars, some change, whatever. They took. All the money
pulled together from the newsroom went to the grocery store
and bought nothing but sugar, like all the cookies, all
the candy, all the treats, all the potato chips, and

(28:52):
we ordered pizza. This was like some hunger game shit
like it was. So then the person that went to
get and it would come in drop it on this
one table that we had in the back of the
newsroom and it was a free for all.

Speaker 4 (29:05):
You guys, you got one plate as much food.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
As you can. Everybody was like fighting for it. I
was like, why did we do this? Because that's just
dumb stuff you do in college.

Speaker 4 (29:13):
It's just what it is, right, And so that energy,
as you.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Said, because you're not just these are people that you know,
I'm sure many of your colleagues that you were with,
then they go on and do amazing things, like a
lot of my friends went on and became reporters and editors,
or some just left the business and did cool business stuff.

Speaker 4 (29:30):
And so like that energy of a newsroom is really
hard to replicate.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
And so but I'm thankful that I grew up in
that culture of newsrooms, because one ain't nothing like a
newsroom argument like people think arguing on TV.

Speaker 4 (29:45):
I was like that ain't nothing compared to a news room.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
So true, it's like that's where you I mean, little
did I know then that I'm fine tuning my skills
about debating and discussing and that kind of thing. I
said that in the barroom argument, like when journalists go
out to a bar, is like, we're gonna be arguing
for days, so we'll.

Speaker 3 (30:02):
Shut the place down, right, we will shut the places down.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
And so that is one of those sort of hidden,
like really wonderful things about journalism. It reminds me of
when I hear players who retire talk about this all
the time. Is that sure they can play in the games,
and they missed the games and the competition, but they
really miss as.

Speaker 4 (30:23):
The locker room.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
And so our version of the locker room.

Speaker 4 (30:25):
Was the newsroom.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
And so I really miss the newsroom and I kind
of always will. But I forgot your original question.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
It's my fault. I asked you about about the moment politics.

Speaker 4 (30:38):
Oh it right?

Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, yeah, yes, so naturally of course one, as I mentioned,
sports was seen as the toy department when I was
in the business, like, oh, sports running not to be
taken seriously. And so my first few internships and even
they were in news and so like I covered cops.
Like my first internship was at the Line and News

(31:00):
and Limeo cover cops. And then the next summer I
covered features for the Detroit Free Press. I was there
they their reporters went on strike and they had to
send me to the Philadelphia Inquirer, where I covered news,
and I remember my big front page story was, I
mean RIPM and everything was when Jerry Garcia died and
so there was a huge visual in Philly and I

(31:21):
got on the front page and I was so excited,
not excited he died, but very excited to be Yeah,
on the front page. Got it. And so like I
do have a news background. Yeah, and just in general,
I think the number one element you have to have
to be a journalist is curiosity. So while I did
love sports and I paid attention to everything happened in sports,
I'm also a citizen. I'm also a.

Speaker 4 (31:41):
Person living in American Yeah, paying attention.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
And some of my favorite columnists were people who are
not sports columnists, like and I read the Washington Post religiously,
you know. It was my favorite publication to read coming up.
So of course I were at the Post and the
Times and not just their sports section. I'm reading this
thing covered the cover. So I've always naturally had an
interest in it. And in my family, we talked about
politics a lot, and you know, there was so many

(32:05):
family arguments, Oh lord, you about politics, right, So that
also was part of that curiosity, and so a ESPN
this did not happen a lot. And I always find
it interesting to the degree which people think we talked
about politics versus how many times we did, Like, oh yeah,

(32:25):
I mean I'm on TV. I did daily television every
day for five years. The number of times where we
talked about some issue where sports and politics were colliding,
maybe I don't even think it got to ten percent.
It was maybe five percent. But the reason ESPN felt
political to a lot of people was I think it's
a number of reasons. One, I think some people outside

(32:49):
of ESPN, so called sports media critics, really were able
to elevate their platform by coming after ESPN. You go
after the biggest kid on the blot, right. So one
of the turning point points when I was there is
when Caitlyn Jenner won the Arthur ash Kurage Award at
the SPIS And you know, I understood why she was
able to get the award Arthur ashe is a real person,

(33:11):
But the SP's were made up. You know why the
sps exist. They exist because in the summer, once the
NBA Finals is done and you have baseball, there's this
lag between the end of the NBA and the starter football.
So ESPN basically manufactured an event and an award ceremony
to kind of get you through the lag. So I'm like,
it's a made up show. It's like yeah. So for
people lost it when Caitlyn Jenner got this award, and

(33:35):
it made sense why she did because you know, anybody
who pays attention to the trans community, like the suicide
suicide rates are high, and there's other mental health issues
going on in that community, and she had been a
real advocate in talking about these issues, and especially when
it came to younger transgender people and being an athlete

(33:55):
having a certain position. Gavin the war all hell broglus
all of a sudden esp and you know, lost their
mind and keep in mind, is one of the highest
righted SBCs I've ever had, save that award. So that
was like sort of one one thing that happened. And
then Colin Kaepernick cappening exactly right, And when Colin Kaeperdick
happened to twenty sixteen, when he took a knee during

(34:18):
the national anthem to bring awareness to protest against police
brutality and all these social justice issues happening in the country.
You know, suddenly the sports and the politics are colliding
in ways that a lot of people don't like.

Speaker 3 (34:30):
And how could you not cover that? Right?

Speaker 1 (34:32):
Like, which is what I say.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
I was like, Hey, it's what are you meant to
ignore the biggest story involving your sport and the rest
of the country.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
Like, well, the NFL is the most popular sport in America, right,
you have this happening. You know, you know how people
feel about the national Anthem. Donald Trump is campaigning at
the time, bringing in Colin Kaeperdick, putting a bullseye on
an NFL player. So all of this stuff is colliding.
And what I want people to real it wasn't like

(35:01):
you were turning on ESPN and we're suddenly breaking down immigration.
That's not what was happening. We were talking about sports
as it intersected with politics in really big ways that
we can't really ignore. But unfortunately, sometimes for people even
a little bit of politics, and to me, it gets
back to what your politics are. It's not that they

(35:23):
care that sports and politics mix, it's that if they don't,
if they don't agree with the issue, then it's a problem.
Because I wrote this when I was at ESPN, I
gave him a lot of credit for it because this
is a thorny issue to step into. But Tim Tebow
and his mother did a pro life ad during the
Super Bowl, and while yes, I'm pro choice, right, that's fine,

(35:45):
but I gave him a lot of credit for doing
that because that is an emotional issue and for him
to stick in him and his mama to get in
this issue, I was like, Hey, the same way I
would applaud someone who was pro choice who did this,
I'm a plat outing him for doing this. Yeah, I
don't agree, but like for an athlete to step out
there and put themselves out there in that way, that's something, right.

(36:07):
Colin got a lot of praise and all that, and
that's fine because people love Tim Tebow. But then when
you flip to say someone like Kyley Kaepernick, who is
also standing up for what he believes in because of
this still debatable issue among people about how black people
should be treated by the police.

Speaker 4 (36:25):
Then that's a different story. Then all of a sudden,
it's shut up.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
Is like just plays never understood that. I've just never
understood that. I think the idea that people shut themselves
off to the rest of the world in politics because
they become a professional athlete or a professional singer. I mean, listen,
you can make smart and not smart business decisions involving politics, that's.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
Up to you.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
But the idea that someone should have no opinions about
the world they are, they are occupying, they are also citizens,
it just never made sense to me.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
So I have a weekly podcast, cost Politics, right that
it is sports and politics, that's exact.

Speaker 4 (37:07):
So we're you know, getting into the mix of it.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
And as I was thinking about this podcast, you know,
I went back and looked at some history and it
was pretty interesting because for a long time, a lot
of the you know, our first initial wave of presidents,
they used sports to connect with people. You know, it
was it was a pretty funny story I came across.
I think it was George Washington who used to get

(37:31):
people drunk and play games to get them to vote.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Right, And it seems not legal, but Okay, Now, back
then it was cool, like.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
You did it. Andrew Jackson was very much into horse racing,
huge horse racing guy because he was a huge gambler,
kind of a degenerate, but I'm not judging. So, like,
there was this track where that presidents used sports to connect.
Presidents had sports interests themselves.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
And you know they were chiming in.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
Like the whole reason that there started to be this
conversation you know about safety in football.

Speaker 4 (38:09):
It came from the White House, it came from politics, right,
And so.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
I think it was Theodore Roosevelt because there was a
significant number of football players who were dying on the
field and he stepped in because his son started playing
football and said, no, no, we need to have a
conversation about safety.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
Otherwise this I'm going to ban this sport.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
Right, There's always been this collision. Yeah, But what changed
how people felt about how athletes are able to speak
about it with the issues that impact them their community
is when black athletes started using their sports platform to
talk about the conditions and their community to talk about
their treatment in America.

Speaker 4 (38:50):
Right then shut up in driple came.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
Then they wanted athletes to be quiet and so I'm
just watching this wave of that very much depends on
who's saying it, what they stand for, and whether or
not people agree, agree, but this whole entire idea. So
when you asked me about, like, when did you become
involved in politics, It's like at ESPN, I generally only

(39:13):
talked about it when it intersected with sports. And the
other thing is ESPN had very specific policies about not
talking about politics on social media. Now, obviously I violated
one of those. Okay, obviously I did, right, And because
there was a lot going on in this country, I

(39:35):
was a little agitated and a little human and I'm
just like, hey man, I don't feel like talking about
who going in the afcast, So let me say this
on Twitter. As I have to tell people, I did
not open up sports centers saying Donald Trump is a
white of purposes. I did not do that, Okay. So
it wasn't that I necessarily went out with this purposeful

(39:57):
plan to start talking about politics. It's like the politics
found me because I live here and it found me,
and the rest, as they say, is history.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
How like, how much.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Backlash do you get when you talk about politics from
the sports community, versus from people in politics.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
That is a great question, and I'm so glad you
asked me this, because the majority of the backlash that
I get is not from the political circles, because I
think there's a certain amount of discourse that you're used
to in politics.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
If I if I have a position in the political sphere,
the people that disagree with me or whatever, they're just
like it's just because of the politics, Like I don't
agree with you because you said.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
This, and you're not the only one talking about it
or saying no.

Speaker 4 (41:03):
I'm not right.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
And so as I've often said this about what I
said about you know, Donald Trump, that sort of you know,
got me in trouble. It's like it's one of the
most unoriginal things I ever said. I wasn't the only
person saying that, right, But because it's the sports center
acre who says it, yep, then that's what made it
register differently and resonate differently.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
With some people.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
So a lot of the flack that I get that's
a little bit more mean spirited is from sports fans
who feel like I have no right or place to
say these things, and especially when it comes to pointing
out certain political aspects of sports that are happening like.

Speaker 4 (41:41):
I can't imagine.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
Like on the current episode of Politics, my guest is
an athlete named Leja Clarendon, who who was the WNBA's
first trans and non binary player. A lot of people
to know this, she just retired. She played in the
league for twelve years, and so not only just talking
to her, and I know there's this evolving conversation, constant
conversation about where trans people belong in sports, and I

(42:06):
know people feel very emotionally about that. But I also
in this same episode, I have a whole commentary about
FIFA because they chose, you know, the Club World Cup
is going on right now in America, and they chose
to not play any of their anti racism ads slogans.
They're not allowing the captains to where some of like

(42:30):
they had like a bunch of unity different unity sayings
they had on their like you know, unite against you know,
gender disparities like this regular regular like the n racism slogan.

Speaker 4 (42:41):
Yeah I was in the NFL, right, but FIFA.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
Decided not to do it. And then you and this
is the same feace for President who just two years
ago was asking the world leaders to join them in
a fight against racism, because that's something that they've had
a real problem with in Fibia in terms of how
the fans, what they say, the slurs they use, their
how they treat be like like it's been a real issue.

(43:05):
So why did they stop it when they came to America?

Speaker 4 (43:07):
Cut to the FIFA president being at Donald Trump's.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
Office, You're why, you know why they did it?

Speaker 1 (43:13):
Right? So, but these are the things that sports fans
they sometimes don't like to recognize some sports fans, and
I get it, like they look at sports as entertainment.

Speaker 4 (43:24):
They look at this as the escape. And I hate
to be the one to be to.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Be the Debbie Downer that tells them, like sports is
not happening in some separate universe that is inoculated from
all these.

Speaker 4 (43:35):
Other problems like right showing up in sports.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
What do you think is? I mean, the United States
over the next five years has some very big international
sporting events taking place here at a time where you
got ice kidnapping people, So like, what's you think? I mean,
this is a conversation we're gonna have to have. You
got travel bands in place of countries that are represented
by these athletes that are coming here.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
You can pretend sports is walled off and this sacred
space where you know you can escape into.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
But that's not reality, that's not.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
Reality true, And so I find that the sports people
are much more hesitant. I get these conversations, and especially
you know, coming from a black woman, right, Yeah, but
you know, depending on what you're talking about, like they're they're.

Speaker 5 (44:19):
Fine if some of their favorite very right wing people
talk about sports in a certain manner that is more
befitting of their politics, and.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
If they'rely fine, it is the same. And with Hollywood.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
You know, I'm center right, no longer a Republican but
a conservative and coming up in the party. You know,
conservatives Republicans would shit on Hollywood, right, these out of
touch celebrities, they have no idea what they're talking about.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
Stop talking about politics.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
You guys sound like idiots and your liberalism and your
leftism until until some act comes out for Republicans. Then
it's come to the convention.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
And be there to pick up. Right.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
Then then suddenly we love you Clint Eastwood. Then we
love you Ted Nugent, we love you Kid Rock. I mean,
you know, they were fine with celebrities, as long as
they were saying the right things. It was so hypocritical
and I never understood how they could talk out of
two sides of their mouth. Hollywood stupid and no one
should care what they have to say unless it's Kid Rock.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
I mean, come on, it makes me embarrassed to be
from Michigan. I'd tell you, but yes, no, you're But
that's the way it works. I mean, it's a degree,
that's a game, but it's a double standard, and it's
a game that at various points both sides have played
this game right where it's just like, listen, we're either
going to be the marketplace ideas or not. And I

(45:51):
always say this period when it comes to athletes, even
if there's athletes who I have, I am completely politically
opposite of. They have a right to say what they're
gonna say, right, I do have the right to criticize
what they say. But the one word that you're never
going to hear me say is they need to shut up.
What I'm going to do is attack what they have said,
but I'm not going to tell them to stop talk.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
I don't know a journalist, a good journalist, who would
ever say shut up.

Speaker 3 (46:16):
It's always tell me more.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Yes, it is like why do you feel that way?

Speaker 3 (46:21):
Never stop talking? Okay, all right, one more question before
we get to a lightning round.

Speaker 4 (46:27):
Ooh, I love a lightning round.

Speaker 3 (46:28):
So do I, so do I. Sometimes it's funny.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
Sometimes I'll mention a lightning round on this and a
celebrity will go, oh, I hate these, and.

Speaker 3 (46:34):
I'm like, this is the funnest, easiest part.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Of the whole. Yeah. Anyway, the best part of the
lightning round is like, that's where the real controversy happens.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
Jamel, You're so correct, it feels like low stakes.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
And then suddenly you're in the most interesting part of
the Podcaes you name.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
The wrong show that's the best sitcom of all time,
and suddenly you're in trouble.

Speaker 4 (46:55):
You're correct, I'm prepared help.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
But before we get there, I just want to bring
up sort of the organizing purpose of this podcast, which
is to talk about mental health, not insofar as like
it's a mental health podcast, but I like to create
a space where mental health can come up as we
talk about the challenges of our jobs, our lives, etc.
And I talk about a lot because I struggle with
anxiety and so it's important to me. A bunch of athletes,

(47:21):
Naomi Osaka, who I've interviewed about her anxiety, Simone Biles,
Michael Phelps, Jalen Rose have opened up about their mental health.

Speaker 3 (47:30):
And I know you do a lot with Charlemagne and
he talks about it too.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
How important do you think it is for people of
their stature in sports to publicly talk about their mental
health struggles.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Well, it is very much one of those changes in
sports that I've found to be really comforting and really dynamic,
because when I was first coming up as a sports reporter,
and really even to the midway point in my career,
athletes never talked about mental health.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
They certainly they kind of went along.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
With this idea that they are basically made a vibranium
physically and mental. You know that nothing gets to them,
that nothing affects them, even though in covering them you
could see that that was not true, that there was
clearly a lot of issues they were struggling with. I'm
really especially happy that a significant number of the people

(48:23):
leading this conversation are people of color, are black people,
because the mental health conversation in our community has been
one that has needed to evolve and the fact that
we're using different language around things, and even I could
see its showing up in the commentary where, you know,
and it's something that I have to evolved in. Two, Like,

(48:44):
I've definitely stopped calling players soft. Like from number one,
I just stated back and thought about it is I
can't do what they do, like for me to call
themselves because even even if by some definition in their
feel they are considered soft, they way tougher than I am.

Speaker 3 (49:02):
So I'm like call them solf, you know.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
And so I think that like how we question and
athletes mental capabilities and something as sports writers, that we
need to develop different language around. And I've seen that,
you know now, especially when an athlete discloses that they're
struggling with mental health, like there's much more care and
consideration for that. So I'm really proud that these athletes

(49:28):
have been able to.

Speaker 4 (49:29):
Be vulnerable in this way.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
Listen, I didn't go to therapy till I was in
my forties, okay, until I was in my mid forties,
and so it was really helpful and beneficial for me.
In fact, I think I opened my memoir talking about
the whole reason I went was because my mother told
me I needed therapy, and I wanted to prove her
wrong by going to a therapist who I assume would
be like you all right, yeah, go ahead, like it's

(49:53):
a check up. Yeah yeah, yeah, like your mom's wrong.
I was like yeah, whatever. And while and while, you know,
I sort of went into it trying to prove against
a attention, I found it to be beneficial and really
helpful and and it helped me to centralize my thoughts.
And it's cool that you talked about your anxiety because

(50:16):
I don't know if this is just the product of age,
but as I got older, I got more anxious, Like
I wasn't that way before twenty years ago. Yeah, I
don't know if it's just you're just more aware, or
if it's just the pressures of this world or just
where your career is, like all of those things, Like
at nights, all aware, it's like my brain it's yeah,

(50:36):
it's yeah, you're right, it's all of it.

Speaker 3 (50:38):
It's all those things.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
It's our jobs, all those certain age, it's all the fame.

Speaker 4 (50:42):
Yeah, it's all that.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
Because some nights I'm like, my mind will not shut
off saying and it's it could be brutal, It can
really be brutal. So understanding that there are other people
going through it, understanding the language around it and what
I'm experiencing how to express that has been beneficials But
I'm beneficial. But I'm glad that athletes in particular are

(51:06):
leading the way because it's encouraging everybody else. I think
to take a deeper look at how they talk about
mental health and frankly, what their all mental health is.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
I've never thought about it from that perspective of as
the sports writer. How it's made journalists talk differently about athletes.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
That's really interesting.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
Yeah, I agree, And I say this too, like anytime
a man of a certain generation comes out to talk
about mental health, that's so so good, and especially a
person of color, because the barriers in those communities to
getting mental health help or higher.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
There are just more obstacles. Structurally, there are more obstacles,
there's more stigma.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
So when a Jalen Rose or when a Charlemagne talks openly, nakedly,
rawly about their mental health, I hear I hear doors opening.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
You know, I just know the ripple effect it's going
to have.

Speaker 4 (51:57):
Yeah, and I think it's important because they're black men
doing it.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Because when you look at where suicide and depression rates
have escalated, it's among that group, and a lot of
it has been you know, And I would say this
doesn't just impact black men, but I would say men
in general. As you know, men have been conditioned to
suppress their feelings, to just get it done and to
just overlook trauma and just to keep going. And not

(52:21):
that women aren't encouraged in the same way, but like
there is a bit more acceptance when we decide to
be vulnerable, and there are not a lot of spaces
for them to do that, and so it's been changing.

Speaker 3 (52:31):
I feel it changing.

Speaker 5 (52:33):
It is.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
I feel like it has definitely changed. Like I think
the generation of men after them are much more in
tune with this issue.

Speaker 4 (52:39):
I think maybe their generation was. I think you're right positive.

Speaker 3 (52:43):
Well, thank you for talking about it with me. I
appreciate that. And as promised, let's get to a lightning round.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
Okay, you're walking into, as you know, the most controversial
part of the podcast.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
I do favorite musical artists or band and then.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Of course you come right off the top rope with this. Okay,
so I'm gonna say my favorite band is The Roots.
The people don't realize The Roots are band. Yes they
are a rap root, but they are a band, Okay
they are. That's why they down fallon because they're a band.

Speaker 4 (53:24):
Yeah right, I'm gonna say it's a route all right.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
Favorite musical artists I'm gonna say, And this is tough. God,
people in Detroit are never gonna forgive me because I
immediately went to Aretha Franklin and in fact, you can't
see it, but I'm wearing her T shirt right now, right,
I can say the Franklin T shirt on her. Yes,
I love her. But I'm gonna say in terms of

(53:48):
soundtracks to my life, it's gonna be Mary J.

Speaker 4 (53:50):
Blige.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
It's so good.

Speaker 4 (53:54):
I love Mary.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
I was like, Mary speaks to my soul. Oh all
the heartbreak I went through the in the y mid nineties,
I was like, Mary was there for every moment.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
And I love that she's gotting.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
You know that she's getting her flowers as an actress
and she was doing so much. Yeah, okay, good, good
approve favorite movie about sports? What is the best movie
about sports?

Speaker 1 (54:18):
Okay?

Speaker 4 (54:19):
And it's key that you said movie and not documentary, correct,
because that those those are two different categories.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
Yes, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna what is the movie
that I will watch over and over and over again.

Speaker 4 (54:38):
I'm gonna go with Remember the Titans, good one. Remember
the Titans. It's a really good one.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
And I know a lot of people.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
Will say Rudy.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
I gotta be honest, I didn't love Rudy. I mean
it's a cool story, like shout out to Rudy and everything,
but my hatred of Notre Tame it runs so deep
I can't even see the beauty of it. Right, Okay, Yes,
I went to Michigan State and growing up like I
was a Michigan fan actually growing up.

Speaker 4 (55:09):
And like the way we hateed Notre Dame.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
Are you kidding me?

Speaker 4 (55:11):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (55:12):
Some things never leave you.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
Okay, something you've.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
Not yet achieved but want to, Well, I will say,
I want to write a best selling fiction, novel fiction.
I want to be on that New York Times best
bestseller list. Yeah, I didn't with my memoir.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
I want.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
I do have a story in mind that I'm sort
of tinkering with and been tickering with it like it's
one of those I got to shit to get off
the pot.

Speaker 4 (55:39):
With it, you know, I really do.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
And so I recently took an advanced storytelling course to
try to get you know, to try to get things going.
But like, I want to write a best selling a
New York Times best selling fiction.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
And you know what you will.

Speaker 4 (55:56):
Right now. You went out there in the university manifesting.

Speaker 3 (55:59):
Right here off the cop what's the worst vacation you've
ever been on?

Speaker 5 (56:06):
You know?

Speaker 1 (56:08):
And this is only because I was broke. It really
wasn't because of the company I was in.

Speaker 4 (56:13):
But my the first time I ever went out of
the country was it was my junior year of college.
Me and three other my girlfriends.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
We pulled together our money and we went to Canco
and so we were staying in this horrific hotel.

Speaker 4 (56:29):
We had, you know, two queen beds, so we two
to a bed.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
We had no money. I don't even know like how
we scraped. Oh I know, I sold plasma in part
to get money to be on this trip. That's a
broke quick I show. Did I stayed selling some plasma college.
I was like, man, it's a wonder that I get
my veins.

Speaker 3 (56:52):
All right, you got margaritas with lasma money?

Speaker 1 (56:57):
I sure did. Went to Senor fraud, got into Tequila
lib the Tequilakaga Libe, Senior frogs.

Speaker 4 (57:04):
We got so drug Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
And while it was.

Speaker 4 (57:07):
Great to be out of the country and do all
these things, it was just the poverty of it. As see,
the poverty of it.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
It was like you're like, never again, never you know.

Speaker 4 (57:15):
What you're saying it never again.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
And that's probably why I probably go a little overboard
now when it comes to vacations, because like I don't
have you know, a lot of people they like clothes,
they like bags, especially, you know, you know, the women
like the shop.

Speaker 4 (57:30):
I hate shopping.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
But the one thing I'm gonna do is I'm going
in when it comes to a vacation a thousand percent.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
Yep, Sam, Yeah, yeah, That's where I also like to
get all my experiences.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
Speaking of what was it like being on below Deck?

Speaker 4 (57:47):
Below Deck was amazing.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
I did it twice. I did it once. My my girlfriends,
my best friend from high school, she actually cold reached
out to the below Deck casting director because on Facebook
they actually advertised for like, hey, if you want to
be on below Deck, and she reached out and it
was a week before my birthday and she said, Hey,

(58:09):
I need you to be by your phone at this
particular time. Somebody's gonna call you. Oh and it was
the below deck casting director, and so we talked about it.
I was like, I was a huge still am a
huge fan of the show. So Thailand was the first time.
The second time, and this was during the thick of COVID,
this is pre vaccinations. We went to Croatia and that

(58:31):
was a couple's trip. So the one thing that is
is true is like you don't notice the camera people
after a while.

Speaker 4 (58:39):
I mean, one, they sat you up pretty good.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
I mean, the yacht is awesome. The yachta is insanely good.
I had Captain Lee and I had Captain Sandy. Both
of them were great. And you know, before you walk
onto the boat, what happens is they're in a marina
and there's usually a restaurant or a bar. So we
were doing shots before we walked onto the right and
so cause they get you tied up right, so when
you get to that boat, you ain't feeling no pain, right, Yeah,

(59:07):
a lot of liquor consumed. The best part about Croatia
and why I think I'm gonna have to say that
was My favorite one is because they picked Croatia because
at that time the spread of COVID there was very low,
and we had to quarantine in a house for seven
days and we were tested multiple times, so we started
jokingly calling at the Croatian trap house. It was. It

(59:29):
was a lovely house, but there was the whole reason.
We were like, no, this is where the reality show
could be. It was during when so this is twenty twenty,
so like the presidential debate happened during that time.

Speaker 4 (59:40):
We had to get up at like two am to
watch it, so it was it was crazy.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
Yeah, but we had we blew through.

Speaker 4 (59:45):
Our liquor allotment it like two days and so we
got them.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
We're in a.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
House all day, like we cannot leave, so what else
we gonna do but get drunk, Like yeah, all we
did was drinking play cards, like the whole time. We
had such a black That was such a great and
amazing trip. Yeah, so I'm just thankful in both cases
they've asked us to be back on it repeatedly.

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
We just haven't had the time. And just getting a
group together.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
As hard because it is an an expensive trip, but
it's just you're getting the boat at a very discounted rate.

Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
But you know what I would say is that I'm
grateful for all the things they didn't show.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
I find what they showed. I'm grateful for what they did.

Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
I can imagine.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
Yeah, yeah, what is the most overrated La food establishment?

Speaker 3 (01:00:36):
It can be fast food, it can be restaurants seen oh.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Well, I mean La like the Mexican food here, the
sushi food here, it's just so phenomenal. Also the Thai food.
But in terms of a place, you know, this place,
I think it is a little overrated, only because and
I get why it's become a landmark, like Rosco's Chicken

(01:01:03):
and Waffles is a landmark, right, A lot of people
love it, But.

Speaker 4 (01:01:07):
There's a lot of actually really good places that are
much better than Roscos.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
And before I lived in La, because there's a Roscos
that's close to the airport, I would have to hit
this Roscos all the time.

Speaker 4 (01:01:17):
And then as I got to learn La and got
the windows some other places, I was like, ooh, Roscos
has got an over rate.

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. I you know, every time I
go to La, I have to go to the in
and out on Lastopolvida.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
Yeah, like myself right there about airport, right, because we
don't have one out east, and I love it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
What what do you think of in and out?

Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
I love it in and out, But I guess it's
like anything else when you live in the city, when
you live in the city where something like that you
know is known. But I used to do the same
when I came to La had to stop at that
particular in and out, either when I landed or when
I left, or sometimes both. Yeah, right now that I've
lived here, ask me how many times I've been. I've

(01:01:58):
been here since twenty eighteen. I've probably been the in
and out twice. Why is that?

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
Yeah, that's what we do, right, It's it's readily available,
so I'm just not going to look at it. I'm
overlooking it now.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
So now the allure it's changed me. I was just like, oh,
because I know it's right down the street, it's like
so good. Now it's not really the same, but it
is still very good. And when I got married in
twenty nineteen, you know, of course we had to sit
down dinner and all that for the reception, but you know,
you always have to have some good drunk food because

(01:02:31):
that in and out. So we had we had an
in and out truck.

Speaker 3 (01:02:34):
Yeah, so that's what I'm so jealous.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Yeah, okay, final lightning round question. It's the question we
ask at the end of every episode because it's the
most important to me. When is it iced coffee season?

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
In my opinion, never, I have never had ice coffee
because the concept of it to me is it is
something about it that is off. Isn't the word like
it is? It bothers my spirit, the idea of ice coffee.

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
Okay, you have the incorrect opinion, but I love that
it's strong. So tell me you're incorrect strong about ice coffee.
I love that you feel about it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
Tell me I do I refuse? I refuse. I don't
give a damn how good y'all say it is. I
don't want cold coffee. I want my coffee like my husband.

Speaker 5 (01:03:23):
Hot.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
Okay, that's how I want it. I don't needed cold
coffee for what?

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
For who?

Speaker 5 (01:03:33):
What?

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
I love it because you know, if you come on
here and you mess with our iced coffee, okay, you
better come with a strong opinion and defend that, and
you did, so it's okay.

Speaker 3 (01:03:47):
You're allowed. You're allowed. I only like it hot.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
It's just like I don't even only drink it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
That's what's in here. I only drink it ice.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
Oh but see, this is where I'm a hypocrite and
I'm gonna call myself out. I'll eat coffee ice cream,
that's the coldest it is. But I don't want to
drink cold coffee. I don't want to drink that. It's
just like I don't know, I don't want to drink that.
It's like if I want some cold, I want like
some lemonade, write an adult beverage. I don't want coffee cold.

(01:04:19):
It's the last thing I want.

Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
Gold.

Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
I'm really glad that you you came with the strong
opinion that you defended, You stood on business here, and
I appreciate that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
I appreciate that even though you're you're wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
I know in your mind you're thinking, like, what a moron,
But that's now I'm kidding.

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
We've done so many of these and we've gotten every answer.
We've gotten. Well, ice coffee season is June first to.

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):
All get you know, but there's a season for this.
We've done.

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
Not every opinion, okay, is there because because it's all
all year, it's every day, it's not ye, right, season
for ice coffee.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
Or or it's never. But we've gotten it all. We've
gotten it all.

Speaker 4 (01:04:56):
You are not alone, and I'm proud to stay up
with team Never this taste.

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
Yeah, you are not alone.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
But Jamelle, this was so fun and so it was
just so great to talk to you in this context,
not you know, across the table about tariffs, but.

Speaker 3 (01:05:12):
You know, right, Yeah, thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (01:05:19):
Well, this was a pleasure, and thank you for having me.
I appreciate you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
All right, I'll see you around. I'll see you around the.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Studio when you do a see an index tonight tonight,
Oh you know tonight. Okay, Well, well, good luck with that.

Speaker 4 (01:05:32):
Thanks.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
Next week, I sit down and talk with actor Bradley Whitford,
who almost didn't get his famous role in The West Way.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
Warner Brothers is saying, what do you not understand? Brad
Whitford is not going to get this part.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as
part of the Reason Choice Networks. If you want more,
check out the other Reason Choice podcasts, Politics with Jamel
Hill and Native Land pod. For Off the Cup, I
am your host, Si Cup. Editing and sound design by
Derek clements Our Executive producers are me Se Cup, Lauren Hanson,
and Lindsay Hoffman. Rate and review wherever you get your podcasts,

(01:06:14):
Follow or subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday.