ALEX HONNOLD: ONE Interview Before Free-Soloing Taiwan’s Tallest Building LIVE (This Episode Will Change Your Relationship with FEAR)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Climbing still always has some edge to it because fundamentally
you could die. I think that it changes your relationship
with fear because you experienced it a lot. Fear is
just feeling some sensations in your body. If you're used
to that stage of discomfort, you're kind of like, oh,
that's just another day.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I am so
thankful that you're tuning in for a very special episode.
Today's guest is someone that I've written about in my
book Think Like a Monk. It's someone that I've mentioned
in count Lead Daily Jay Meditations on the Calm Map.
It's someone's story that I've been fascinated with for quite
some time. I'm speaking about Alex Honold, one of the

(00:36):
greatest climbers in history, an athlete who's expanded our understanding
of courage, focus, and human potential. From his Oscar winning
free solo ascent to his upcoming live climb of Taipei
one oh one, Alex continues to push the boundaries of
what's possible. He's the founder of the Honold Foundation, using

(00:56):
his platform to bring solar energy to communities in need. Today,
we're diving into the mindset that makes it all possible.
Please welcome to on Purpose, Alex. Honold Alex. It's great
to finally meet you.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
Oh thanks, Yeah, it's an honor. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
I was so happy to hear that you'd actually already read. Yeah,
just find the book where I mentioned you, which truly
your story your mindset has been fascinating to me for years.
That book came out in twenty twenty, and so I'm
so excited that I actually get to sit down with
the real human behind it today and get to actually
learn from the master as opposed to my interpretations and

(01:33):
my conceptions.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Of what you may be doing. I think your interpretations
are pretty good. That's very kind.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
That is very kind of you.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
That means the world.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
I wanted to start with this, getting straight into it.
On January twenty third, you're climbing the tallest building in Taiwan.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Why Why because it's awesome? Because I get to basically
because yeah, it's good. It'll be so fun. I mean, yeah, basically,
it's really hard to get permission to go on building,
and if you get permission, you kind of have to
say yes. You know, it's like so many other sorts
of life experiences where you're kind of like, well, it's
a hard thing to do, but you get permission, you
kind of just have to go do it.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
And you've been wanting to climb this building for quite
some time.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Right, Yeah. I actually scouted it for a different TV
thing that fell apart in twenty thirteen, I think, So
for the last you know, twelve years, I've known that
it was possible. I knew that it's I mean, the
building is honestly uniquely suited for climbing. It's kind of perfect.
It's amazing. It's it's a really beautiful building. I mean,
I don't think that many people know what it looks like,
but it's I looked at it before. Yeah, it's singular,
it's striking. I mean you saw how it sticks out

(02:34):
of the city scape. I mean it's incredible. So it's
it's just so cool. But so twelve years ago or so,
I scouted it and realized that I could do it,
and it was like, this is amazing, but never got
the opportunity. And so now I get the opportunity.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
I love that. And is this building that fascinating to
you because of the architecture, because of this city scape?
Is that how you choose what you feel inspired to climb.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
I mean a little bit. I think in general with
rock for me, you know, there are always a bunch
of the different things that go into choosing a cool objective.
But part of it is, you know, the aesthetic beauty
of it, like is it striking? Does it? Does it
catch the eye? As it beautiful? I mean, part of
it is in rock climbing is sort of like the
mythology of it, you know, like the climbing history, like
is it important to climbers? And so I think with

(03:19):
buildings it's kind of the same way, like is it striking,
is beautiful? Is it possible? Which in this case it's
kind of in the perfect sweet spot where it's possible
and it's challenging, but it's not insanely challenging. Because if
you're going to do something for a TV program, it
has to be well, you just have to be able
to do it on command, you know, and so so
you don't want it to be you know, cutting edge cutting,

(03:40):
like the hardest thing ever done. You want it to
be kind of in a sweet spot where like this
is challenging and it's going to you know, keep me focused,
but it's not insanely difficult. You start climbing really young, right,
well tennish, which actually nowadays elite climbers all start even younger.
But yeah, I was lucky enough to start as a kid.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
And was it always the plan for it to be
a professional pursuit.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
No, no, just no. My parents are both professors, and
you know, they were supportive and like, go do the
thing that you like to do. But I mean, especially
when I was young, climbing was way more fringe, way
more niche, and so nobody was a professional climber, you know.
But thankfully as I grew up, that kind of climbing
has also grown up quite a bit. Climbings in the Olympics.
Now it's just way bigger of a sport, so it's
a little less unusual, and there's just more money in

(04:23):
the now so you can actually make a living.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
And you know, was there a moment that you felt
that you You're like, oh, I'm actually good at this,
like this is real? Like when did that happen for me?

Speaker 1 (04:32):
Not? Really, it's no. I mean for years I thought
that I would wind up being a mountain guide or something,
or you know, I just wanted to I figured out
get some kind of job within the climbing world. And
then you know, I picked up some sponsors and started
getting my gear for free. And I was living in
a van by myself, so it's pretty pretty low overhead.
You're kind of just living and and then eventually you're
kind of like, oh, I'm making a living doing this

(04:53):
thing I love to do. And then eventually you're making
a little more and and then I was like, oh,
I mean it took years until I really thought of
myself as a professional climber. You know, at first, it
was just kind of like, I'm basically a homeless person
living in a van who happens to get climbing shoes
for free. And you're like, oh, that's cool. But that's
different than feeling like you're actually gonna make a living
as a rock climber.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
And so you were doing this even when it there
was there was no money. Was this was what you're
what you were chasing. You were working another job and
doing this on the side.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
I mean I did work, you know, like I worked
in my climbing gym when I was a kid, and
you know, I worked a little bit on the side,
but no, basically I've just been trying to climb my
whole life.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
Well, what was the first climb that you did that
was challenging and risky or some sort of like real.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
I mean, I think as I started to dabble outdoors
because I grew up in suburban California, like in Sacramento,
and so I would just ride my bicycle to the
climbing gym. And so for the first you know, eight
years of my climbing life is just going climbing in
the gym. So, I mean it's super fun and you
can learn all the skills that way, but it's not
particularly extreme or anything. It's not like, you know, it's
not what people think of as an adventure. And then once

(05:57):
I learned how to drive and then started borrowing the
family car and started going outside more, then I started
having some of the adventures that I think characterize you know,
what people think of as a is extreme rock climbing
and all that.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
What's the experience for you? Like, is it the thrill?
Is it the fascination? What part of it gives you
life and brings you a life?

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Like, what part of it gives you joy? I mean,
I think at the core is just the movement of climbing,
Like I literally just came here from the climbing gym
because I had a little time. Yeah yeah, I didn't
watch my hands, but but yeah, it's like there's a
there's a climbing gym relative in nearby, and I was like, oh, perfect,
So just a quick session basically just rapid fired problems
around the gym. Bolting gyms are just short and you know,
it's safe. And I just did an hour as fast

(06:41):
as I could and now I'm tired and I'm like,
what a nice day. So it's really just the movement
of climbing, I think, is the the at the core
that's the joy of it. But then beyond that there's
the challenge, you know, like overcoming fears, uh you know
as a professional climber. I mean the travel involved in it,
like seeing the world, being outdoors in nature, having beautile experiences,
all your friends. I mean, there are all these other

(07:02):
things that are amazing about climbing. But I think the
thing that always brings me back to is that just
like climbing, you know, it's like running or swimming or
other sort of like elemental movement patterns. It just feels
good to do the thing.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Ye tell me about the actual skill of climbing for
someone who isn't a climber.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, I'm climbed at all.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
I have. I don't think I've climbed at all. I'm
trying to think about it in my life. I don't
think I've ever climbed, and so I would love to understand,
like talk to me about the actual skill of climbing,
is if you were training me.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
Even as a kid, you never climbed on things.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, of course I love climbing on things. I wanted
to do park l my kids. My parents would never
let me. Park all was like my fascination. I saw
kids doing park cour was like, that's so cool. I
love climbing trees. I love climbing walls.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yeah, I love gates. I've climbed like that, but I
mean I've never well, I think that's the same thing basically.
And that's actually I think one of the interesting things,
you know, with this building thing coming up, people are like,
woyw do you climb a building. I'm kind of like,
was a kid, I climbed all the buildings an my home.
I climbed all the trees. I fell out of trees
quite a lot.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
Me too.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
And you know, I'm kind of like phisicad my wrist
doing that. Yeah there, Yeah, yeah. I broke broke mound
three times as a kid falling off play structures and
once in the climbing gym. But but yeah, I mean
basically most kids, it feels like love that kind of play,
and I think it's pretty normal to play on things
in that way. And so it's interesting that now as
adult people like, why would you do that? And you're

(08:17):
kind of like, because it's awesome, because it's so fun.
It's like the same reason the kids like to do that,
because it's it's it's cool. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Absolutely, I mean I still love a ropes course, like
you know, if I have, but I get the playbit.
But what are the skills that you've had to build
to actually be able to do this professionally? Because there's
a difference between I love the play and then you know,
I'm going to climb the eleventh tallest.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
Building in the world.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
Like, what's what's the training, what's the skill level? Talk
to me about the mastery from zero to where you
are today. What are the steps that it's taken.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
To I mean, yeah, I'm like, in some ways, you
just go and do the thing all the time and
you get better at it, you know. On the other hand,
it's like I've been Yeah, I've been climbing probably five
days a week for thirty years. Oh, You're bound to
slowly get better at something if you put that much
effort into it. But yeah, I mean, I guess the
I mean it comes down to movement, like how well
do you move your body, like transferring your weight over

(09:10):
your feet. Like in theory, your legs should be driving
you for most things. I mean, people think of climbing
as plunging with your arms, but really you should think
of it as climbing a steep, steep staircase, So you
should be driving with your legs, and you should be
using your hands almost like you went on a handrail,
like for balance. You know. Obviously if a climb is
more than vertical, then you have to hang on with
your arms more. But still you should be driving as
much as you can through your feet. So it comes

(09:31):
down to technique and you know, body position, where you
how you use your hips, all that kind of stuff.
But you know, in some ways I think that over
complicates though. It's like, really you just go and you
and you try, you know, you just go climbing.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
I love, I love how casual you make it. Someone
I'm thinking, like in my head, I'm thinking, well, you
never skip leg day because you need to work on that. Like,
are there certain muscle groups that you just need to
be proficient at and prolific at so that you can
be a better climb.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
I mean, climbing is very full body, so it's like
basically use everything. I mean, if you could just like
turn the dials on something, if you could turn your
finger strength to infinity, then you'd be a great climber.
You know. It's like basically if you can hold on
things very very well, then basically you can you can climb.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Well, how do you build your finger strength?

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Well? Sadly, I'm I'm fingersing. It is probably my biggest
weakness as a climber. It's probably the one thing that
there's probably the thing that I'm worse at and overall,
especially you converder my peers Like other professional climbers, I've
always been sort of better with sort of full body,
Like I think I have good technique and so I
can transfer a lot of weight to my feet and
sort of keep them off my fingers because my fingers
aren't that strong. But in general, you build finger strength

(10:35):
the same way you build any other strength. You basically
load your fingers, and finger strength is actually your forearm strength.
It's like your you know, because you control your hand
like through your forearm grip strength, and so you just
build up by you know, hanging from small edges or
hanging with more weight on you just you know, you
build up.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
How many hours do you spend training per week?

Speaker 1 (10:55):
I can probably spend you know, three to five hours
in a session climbing, and I can do that maybe
five days a week or so, is it? But that
doesn't totally do you know some of the days that
I go, you know, quote unquote climbing, I'm going soloing
in the mountains or something, and so of that time,
a chunk of it is hiking into the thing, some
of it's climbing the thing. Some of it's like eat
lunch on top and trying to figure out where the

(11:17):
next how to get off the mountain or whatever, you
know what I mean. Like there, sometimes you can have
a six or eight hour day in the mountains and
you're kind of like strolling, but it's all very low intensity.
You're kind of like wandering through the mountains and figuring
out what you're doing.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
It's not like it's like it's not intense the whole
time is Yeah, it's not.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
Like Michael Phelps training in the pool or something, you
know what I mean, you're like wandering around the mountains
like slightly confused, trying to figure out. And I mean
sometimes you walk into the mountains, it turns out it's
cold and raining, and then you walk back and you're
kind of like, well, I didn't actually climb anything. And
that's just the way it goes when you count like
hours of training. And actually, so in the past, I
used to have a training journal where I did keep
track of hours, and now I don't really keep track

(11:51):
of time because that's not really the best metric. I
don't think it's more around effort and you know, like
what you've actually done. Yeah, it's some days you spend
a ton of time, but you don't do that much,
and then other days, in a couple of hours, you
can get completely destroyed because you're going super hard.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
What's what's when your favorite place you've got lost?

Speaker 1 (12:09):
That's a good question. I don't know. I mean I
live in Las Vegas and Red Rock Conservation are is
like this big world famous climbing destination, like just outside
of town, and I live near it, and I climb
in Red Rock all the time, and I still get
lost all the times, like really complicated sandstone canyons with
like folds of rock and you know, tricky. It's just yeah,

(12:29):
I mean it's crazy because every season I'm like, where'd
the trail go? I'm like, oh, I live here and
I hike this all the time, and I'm like, how
much still lost? But you know, that's that's the joy
of being outdoors. Really.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
When you talk about the mindset as well, you were
saying half of it is, you know, the beauty of
the landscape of the rock formation, and you said the
other half is just your fascination with overcoming fear and
the mindset piece. I imagine being lost while doing something
you love is quite a special feeling. It seems that
you've made friends with I.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Mean I've never really actually there only been a couple
of times where have been like a lot lost like it.
Once actually climbing a thing in South Africa, I thought
I was going to have to drop into now I forget,
what's the neighboring country to the north. We were right
on the border, like north of Johannesburg. I forget what
the next country north is, but basically I thought I
was gonna have to drop over the border, like into
another country basically go find a village, because we were

(13:18):
up on a mountain basically, and you could see villages
off in the distance. But I was like, couldn't find
my way back to where I was supposed to and
just kind of like I'm just going to go fully
you rogue here and just have to like borrow somebody's
phone and try to find a way to contact the
people that I'm supposed to be But ultimately I found
my way eventually showed up hours late and totally torn
to shreds from like crawling through the bushes all confused.

(13:39):
But so I've only had a few experiences like that
where I'm lost lost For the most part, you always
have a sense of where you're supposed to be going.
You're just not on the trail or you know, you
can't find the best way. Yeah, but that, I mean
that is kind of the joy of climbing. You just
have tons of experiences like that where you're like, oh,
doing some crazy thing.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
I read that in twenty sixteen, euroscientists conducted a brain
scan and that you're a MiG dealer responded much less
to fear than the average person. Did you always feel
that way growing up? No?

Speaker 1 (14:07):
But I well, so this is part of a long thing.
But I would suspect that you're a Migdala probably responds
less to fear than the average person, just in the
same way like yours of meditation will do the same thing.
It's like you're just not going to respond to stimulus
in the same way. And so for me, I see
that as basically I've been getting afraid. I've been consistently
experiencing fear all the time as a climber, you know,
for years. And so then the test that they did

(14:29):
for that particular brain skain, you know, you're an fMRI
And then you look at these black and white photos
and I'm like, well, obviously looking at photos while I'm
lying down inside of sealed too, it's just not scary.
You know, if you spend your whole life getting scared
all the time, that's not scary. And in the same
way that I'm sure if somebody scans your brain it's
going to be different. Than average because you spend a
ton of time working on it. Basically, you're kind of

(14:49):
like that seems totally reasonable. You know. It's like, I
don't know, it's a shame because there's a scene in
Free Solo. You know, they show a little clip from
that when and basically everyone watching the movie comes out
of like, well, there's something wrong with his brain, and
you're like, no. The takeaway is that if you practice
something your whole life, you get better at it. It's like,
that's that's the real lesson.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Yeah, that, I mean, now looking at it from your perspective,
that makes a lot of sense in that you're right
that when you're doing those tests it will rarely be
as scary as something you've done in reality.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, I mean it's like I get tons of questions
on fear and like managing fear and all that, and
you know, my answers have obviously changed over time, and
I've like thought about fear time in my life, and now, honestly,
I'm always like, you know, it's been thirty years I've
been climbing all the time, and climbing is really scary,
Like you're always scared at least a little bit as
a climber, because there are always consequences in climbing. Even
if you're climbing with the rope and you're using protection,

(15:40):
you're still always a little bit on edge because you know,
you're like, what if the rope cut? Like what if
you know a didn't time, I not, like, there are
always these what ifs, and so you're always a little
bit afraid. And so I think that it changes your
relationship with fear because you're just scared all the time.
I mean, you know, not like deep fear, but there's
always an edge to it, and so I think that
puts all the other fear in life sort of in perspective.

(16:03):
You know, it gets you good at managing fear because
you experience it a lot.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
How do you moderate it or regulate it in that
moment when you've got to place the next step, you've
got to reach for something else, you've got to keep moving.
Because I think that's you're spot on by the way.
I love the way you're talking about fear, because I
think you're absolutely right that if you're constantly in a
state of discomfort, but you have the right mindset, because
a lot of people in the state of discomfort but

(16:28):
then they overthink or they procrastinate what they get.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Still, I think it's like if it's their first time
in a state of discomfort, then it's pretty overwhelming. But
if you're used to that state of discomfort, you're kind
of like, oh, that's just another day, you know. And
I think that's the thing with climbing, is that a
lot of the time, you know you're a little bit scared,
but you just totally ignore it because the rational part
of your mind is like, this is fine, Like your
harness is like everything is safe, the rope is safe,
You're totally fine, and so you just ignore it. But

(16:51):
then occasionally you're like, oh, I'm scared because I'm in danger,
So that you're kind of like, oh, I should think
about this and sort of evaluate it, like is you know,
am I going to be okay? Is it should I
should take different actions? Should I try to mitigate this
in some way? So, I mean, you know, it totally depends.
But that's the thing is the climate is you're constantly
balancing those kinds of things like is this fear well
found it? Should I act upon it in some way?

(17:11):
Should I do something? Should I not?

Speaker 2 (17:13):
You know, yeah, and so so your relationship with fear
seems just very neutral in the sense of you having
a conversation with it. It's like every other Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Well I sometimes. I mean, fear is a sensation in
your body, same as lots of other things, and so
I've used this analogy before, but I'm kind of like,
it's like hunger. You know. It's like when you experience hunger,
You're not like, oh my god, I'm hunger. I need
a sandwich right now. You're just kind of like, okay,
I should eat at some point. And I feel like,
I think because people experience fear much less frequently, it

(17:42):
feels more overwhelming. But you know, if you experience fear
with the same regularity that you experience hunger, then you're
kind of like, okay, like I'll deal with that in
due time, like when it makes sense, I'll manage that.
But fundamentally, feeling fear is just feeling some sensations in
your body or something like. It's not like, doesn't matter
more or less than any other thing that you feel
in your body, really, unless it's telling you you're about

(18:04):
to die, Yeah, in which case you should pay attention. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
Absolutely, Do you do you feel that that what you
just said about the more frequently you were exposed to fear,
the less fear affects you. Does that translate from the
physical sensation to when you're having emotional relational challenges as well.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
Probably less so than my wife wishes, you know, you
know what I mean, right, I think it does a
little bit, probably because you know, to some extent, managing
fear is managing fear. Yeah, but it is a little
bit of what you practice. Like, I think I'm really
good at dealing with like physical fear, like physical risk
and things where I'm like, I feel like I'm in
danger less So I mean public speaking I was horrified

(18:42):
of for a long time, but again with tons of practice,
it has gotten much more comfortable. It's fine. And then
like relationship all stuff, I'm sort of like, oh, that's
I mean, my wife would say, there's still long ways
to go. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Talk to me about the difference between like the fear
of what you do, which most of us would see
as dad is scary, and then public speaking, which is
known as one of the scariest things, you know, I mean, like,
talk to me.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
About the difference. No, I think it's really similar. I mean,
I think most people are. I mean, I was definitely
more afraid of public speaking than climbing. But obviously, you know,
I love climbing. I spent a whole life doing it,
but public speaking is horrifying. Though that said, now that
I've had a lot of practice with it, I would
say that it's not that scary, whereas climbing still always

(19:26):
has some edge to it because fundamentally you could die,
you know. With public speaking, it like feels like you
might die, but you're just you know, it's fine, Like
you can always go out and like make a fool
yourself and it doesn't really matter.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
Well, that's that's what I'm saying, right, Like, the reason
why we get scared of doing things that where there
isn't a cost is because we almost make it out
like there is.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
A high stake to it. Yeah, but I think that
with a little bit of practice, you realize that there
just isn't that high a stake. Like, you know, when
you haven't done it before, you're like what if they
laugh at you? And then you're like what if they do?
Like who cares? You know, it turns out it's totally fine,
doesn't matter, you know. But with with some of the
physical fear of stuff. You're kind of like, well, I
mean it does matter if you fall through death or
you know, so those you know that will always have

(20:09):
some edge to it.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, and so how do you process that in the
moment when those when that's what you think?

Speaker 1 (20:15):
I mean, it depends sometimes, you know, first, take some
new breaths, compose yourself sort of like try to deal.
I mean, the thing with climbing is that there's never
any time pressure to it, so you can just stand
there basically wow, you know, even if you're clinging to
the rock, like maintaining a static position is typically not
like that hard, so you can just hold on, take
some new breaths, take your time, get composed, and then

(20:37):
try to decide whether or not. You know, It's like
sometimes you get really scared for no particular reason, and
then other times you're kind of like, oh, it turns
out that i'd you know, misjudge the rock quality and
this is much more dangerous than I thought it was,
and like maybe I should bail. And so, I mean
I've bailed off all kinds of things where you climb
part way up something you're like this is not for me,
and you just climb back down.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
That's interesting to hear. So you you're okay with knowing
your edge and knowing a limit, there's not.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
And the thing with free sooling is that you always
have to stay well within your limits. You know. It's
like because like when you're coming with a rope, you're
always trying to push yourself like sort of beyond your
limits that you can learn and grow and everything. But
if you're free sooling, you stay well within your comfort
zone because obviously you just can't fall off. And that's
what this next clime is, right, Yeah, this next time
is free sooling. But it should be I mean, it's interesting.

(21:21):
It should be well within my physical comfort zone, like
you know, I should be able to physically comment. But
the sort of exciting thing for me is that I've
just never climbed a building like that before, and so
so I think even though I'm very confident in my
physical ability to do it, I'm still kind of like, well,
I'm doing a new thing, and so that's always a
little bit exciting.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yes, yeah, I love that. Well, I feel like what
I really appreciate with how we're talking about fear right
now and through your reflection on it, is that there's
a sense of recognizing that anytime I do something new,
I'll feel a sense of discomfort or fear, and that's
a good thing, yeah, because that means I'm I'm trying
something new well.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
And that's the whole thing is like are you experiencing fear,
Are you experiencing nervousness or excitement or you know, because
a lot of those things are the same sensation in
your body. Really, you're like, oh, I'm like a little
nervous or I'm feeling like butterflies and I feel tingling
and I'm on edge and I feel heightened, and you're like,
am I afraid or am I excited? Like I don't know.
I mean, it's hard to exactly pinpoint some of those
kinds of things, and so so I think it's you

(22:21):
just don't want to put too fine a point. I'm like,
I'm scared because you're like, oh, you're just sight yeah,
you know, like I know that when I get to
the bottom of the building, Like actually, surprisingly, the first
move off the ground is one of the harder moves
on the climb, and you kind of have to like
jump up and catch this thing and like start climbing
and like basically taking the first step onto the buildings
like one of the hardest. And I'm sure I'm going
to be a little nervous and a little tight and

(22:42):
just kind of like, oh, this is you know, with
cameras and people in a whole spectacle. I'll be like,
that's crazy. Yeah, it's just going to be like, you know,
I'm nervous. But does that mean I'm scared. I'm like,
I mean, we'll see. I don't think so, but I
think it'll be exciting for sure. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (22:55):
No, I mean not that I've done anything that I
think is that hard by anything I've ever done for
the first time.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, it's scary, even if I've done it for a long.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
Time, it's still nerve wracking. Like I said, not comparing
anything at all, But yes, for me, if I was
going into a longer meditation than I've ever done before.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
This new step, absolutely I'm still nervous. And again, what
is what is the longest meditation you've done? What's considered
like a long meditation.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
So we would do a minimum of four to eight
hours a day in blocks or so in full chunks,
like you could do four together or eight together. Yeah,
sometimes Yeah, but the longest.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
One eight hour.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
The longest one I've ever done is probably just under
twenty four hours. Yeah, the longest.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
Wow, how deep did you go? It was one of
the talk about that.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
It was one of the best most because what we
learned through length of meditation was not to show how
long you can meditate. It was the ability to have
to disconnect from the body because you have to go
beyond the body to be that present in the moment
because you'll start and I mean yours is much harder,
but like you start feeling an ache or a pain,

(24:05):
you start itching, you start mentally getting from one.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
So you got totally you've got to go beyond the
body in the mind twenty four hours, a get hungry
if you go to the bath, Like.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
No, you're fasting to make it easier. But but yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
But does that make it easier? I mean it makes
it easier to but you know, because just fasting for
twenty four hours is its own challenge.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yeah, we would do it often enough, so it wasn't.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
It wasn't.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
Again, it's what you just said about, but when you're
practicing it, it's it doesn't sound that crazy for me
to say out loud. Because I know other monks you've
done it for three days and seven days, and you know,
for for longer than far.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
People meditate for seven days. Oh absolutely, for.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
Really they're like they're like there's some people that I mean, yeah,
I'm like a complete beginner when it comes to you know,
the realm of real you know work that some of
these incredible people that I got to.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Meet have done. Seven days is a long time to sit.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
Yeah, it's a long time to sit. Maybe not good.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
It feels like more than you might need. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
Well, it's always like that interesting thing where I remember
when I was starting to do cold plunges in the beginning,
I'd always be like, what's the right amount of time
to be in a cold plunge?

Speaker 1 (25:12):
And when I was zero, I was gonna ask you
you forever? No, No, I don't do that kind of
thing you do. But it's because I'm kind of like
I don't think it matters, Like I don't think it
makes me a better So, you know, if I was
convinced that this would like change my life, and then I'm like, yeah,
I'm sure you do that, you know, mind ever matter whatever.
But there are a lot of things like that same
with meditation, where I'm like, if I thought this was
the path and like that would help me send, you know,

(25:34):
like climb harder, and I'm like, yeah, I would do that.
But if I don't think so, then I'm like, no,
I take a hot shower. I love that.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
I love that, But no, It's what I was saying
was that when I first started to do it, it
was there's the ego number because it makes you feel better,
but then there's the number that's actually good for your health.
So I think most health experts would say three to
seven minutes in there is amazing, But then people be like,
I was in there for fifteen minutes, but it's almost
like it doesn't it's not that active to be seven
minutes because your body's regulated and now it's not a

(26:03):
challenge or a shock.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Anything, and after twenty you're dead. So exactly, it's not benefit.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
It's not actually happened. So has there ever been anything
you like, I really want to climb that, but actually
it's too risky and I wouldn't even bother like you said,
you bail.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
The dons, Okay, So actually so in the context of
the building, So when the idea of climb skyscraper for
a live thing came up you know whatever twelve years
ago or someone when we first scouted. The first thing
I scouted was the Birch Khalifa It which is the
tallest building in the world. You buy and it's possible
you can climb it. I mean I was able to
do the moves on it. But it's a it's cutting edge. Basically,
it's like very very hard and how high did you get?

(26:38):
I could climb the building, uh with a rope, you know,
I climb the outside, but it's it's just very hard.
And also it's hard in the wrong ways. It's like
very slippery and very very finicky, like you could imagine
is slipping off in an a moment. So basically I
was kind of like it was kind of like the
Alkapa Freesling or something. I was like, sure, if I
devoted myself to this, I like moved to do Bay
and just like liveing on this building. It's like, yeah,
it's possible, you know, like it can physically be done

(27:01):
with the proper commitment everything, but for a TV program,
And I was like, no, this is crazy. Like I'd
actually started thinking about using like a like a d
day style parachute, you know, like old school military parachutes,
Like a modern parachute is like a wing, has a
direction to it. So it's actually not that helpful for
something like a building because you'd have to be able
to get a clean exit away from the building and
turn away from it and face the correct direction because

(27:22):
if you're if you deployed your parachute and you went
into the building, you just crumble and collapse and die.
So anyway, but so like a drop parachute, just like
an old school like what you imagine, like g I
Joe using that just goes straight down. When I was
playing on the Berge, I was kind of like, well,
maybe I'd do something like that because then if you know,
you did slip, at least you could just basically plummet
straight down the face of the building like it might
kind of be okay, you know you maybe you break

(27:43):
your ankle at the bottom, but you're not going to die.
And so you know, I started considering ideas like that.
I was like, this is all crazy, this is too
much like this is too extreme basically, and so I
mean that's an example of a climb where I'm like, yeah,
it's possible, like somebody could do it, but it's just
way outside what I think is reasonable. And then when
it went and scouted type out one to one, it's
kind of like, oh, it has all the same features

(28:05):
of a striking building that's like the biggest thing in
the whole landscape. It's amazing, But the style of climbing
is way more secure, like the things that you're grabbing
are way less slippery, and the shape of them works better,
like you just hold on better. I was just like, oh,
this is the type of challenge I'm looking for.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder
whether now after this, they're going to start building buildings
for you to climb.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
That's what's good happen. I don't think our takes even
I don't even think it crosses their mind, like what
humans can hold on the outside, because it's interesting. I mean,
some buildings are just completely impossible because there's a smooth
metal and glass, and then other buildings are like a ladder,
you know, it's almost like a jungle gym where it's
like too easy, as kind of trivial, like anybody could
walk up and do it if they wanted to. Like
the new York Times building in uh, New York City

(28:49):
has been climbed by a handful of random people and
like some just random dude off the street just climb
like half the building because it's like a scaffolding. Basically,
they're kind of like, well, that's not the challenge that
I'm looking for, because IVE spent my whole life practicing
this thing. I want to do something that's hard enough
that it feels meaningful to me.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
How do you prepare for a climb? So you scout
it out, but how do you how do you then prepare?
Like how are you preparing right now for?

Speaker 1 (29:26):
Yeah? I actually just started all my training type stuff
for it. It's funny. I did the scout in September
because they have to do it far enough out to
you know, assemble the crew and plan the filming and
all that kind of stuff. And so it was funny
because I was super psyched at the time, Like you
go and scout and you're like, God, this is so cool.
I'm so excited, Like I want to do this next week.
You know, I'm like, let's do this. I'm ready. But
then I kind of had to just sit on it

(29:46):
for you know, a couple of months, just because it's
scheduled for January and so and so. Now sort of
two and a half months out, I've started like properly training.
You just don't want to start like really training too
far out because then you'll just get like injured and tired.
And you know, it's like you kind of want to
peek at the right time, and so yeah, I'm just
I don't know like all the all the ways you
normally train, like eating really well, sleeping really well, exercising

(30:08):
a tremendous amount, and just kind of trying to ramp
up my volumes that I feel incredibly fit when the
time comes.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
And that's so interesting that you said you have to
peek at the right time. So have you learned how
to do that over time? I assume, because in my head,
I'm thinking, Oh, wait, for something this big, you'd prepare
six months in advance by love where.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
You're say, yeah, yeah, like a training block, normally you
can only sustain say three to six weeks of hard
effort before you kind of need like a dload time.
Like basically you can only build for a certain amount
of time and then you need some kind of natural
rest and then you can start building in and so
ideally you sort of like naturally build up over time.
But if you were, say six months out from an event,
you'd have to have a pretty sophisticated like I'm going
to train really hard for a month, but then rest

(30:48):
for like a week or two and then train really hard.
You know, you need like a complicated plan. In this case,
I have a relatively simple plan and that I'm basically
just ramping until the building. And I kind of started
my train maybe a little prematurely. I was all psyched,
and so I think I'm gonna take a little dload
time around Christmas, which actually works perfectly with holidays and things,
because I think I'll basically wind up doing six weeks

(31:09):
or so and then have like a week at Christmas
where I kind of chill, and then do another three
or four weeks and then do the thing. It's not
just like well, it just seems it's all kind of perfectly,
you know, I think it should be perfect, but we'll see.
So far, so far, I'm responding well and feel really strong,
and yes it's great, but.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, no, I'm excited to see it, like I'm so
I'm so thrilled it's to do it live is just
you know, you're giving us a real treat, Like I think.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
You know, it's interesting though, because like for me, the
live thing doesn't if anything, it makes it more chill
because normally, when you shoot a documentary, you go and
you do the thing and then you have to go
back and film on it and you have to shoot
pickups and shoot audio and like do all this extra
work basically, and so you know, it's a tremendous amount
of effort. But for the live event, I'm kind of
like I'm gonna go and I'm gonna do it, and
then I'm gonna fly home and I'm done. It's totally amazing.

(31:57):
So as soon as like do the climb, I'm totally done.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Like I'm saying, for us, it's more fun because we
get to be there with you.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah. Yeah, But I just don't, you know, I basically
don't totally care, you know, about like other people experience,
like because oh you don't really you know, oh interesting
sort of like if it was a film about it,
like that'd be fine for me too. The live thing. Basically,
I want to I want to do a climb that
I'm proud of, Like I'm excited about climbing it and
the way other people experience that. I'm kind of like,

(32:25):
you know, yeah, I mean I don't want to say
I don't care because I want other people to have,
you know, a good time from it, but like, you know,
that's not the priority, you know what I mean? Yeah,
Well you do it because you love it. Yeah, I
mean that's that's kind of the thing, and I think.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah, that's brilliant, what a great place. I think everyone
wants to live that way. You do it because you
love it, It doesn't really matter.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah, It's funny like when it first got announced as
a project, there was you know, the sort of expected
online hate and stuff from people in the climbing community
being like why would you do that? That's stupid, Why
climb building is too risky, or like you know whatever,
you know, criticism for various reasons. But I was kind
of like, man, wait till you see the thing. It's
so cool, it's so fun. You know, if you had

(33:05):
the opportunity to do this, you would do it too,
because like any climber would say yes to this because
it's super fun and any you know, like getting an
opportunity to do something amazing. It's like why would you
ever say no to that? But my goal for the
you know, if I can say I have a goal
for the building, I mean other than climbing it is
just to actually have fun doing it, because I'm kind
of like, that's what I want people to see from it,
like this is awesome, you know, not like there's some

(33:27):
death defying stunt. It should be like this is amazing,
Like this is so fun, this is joyous. You know, yeah, absolutely,
we'll see. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
I love how playfully you make it because appealing to
that part. I think we can all relate to that
when it was just when it was playful, when it
was exciting, when it was.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
Yeah, I know, it's like that. The thing is it
gets wrapped in all this like it's extreme and you're
kind of like, yes, I mean yes, it's very high consequence,
like if I make a mistake, if I totally watch something,
I could die, and you're like, yeah, that's you don't
want to downplay that too much. But at the same time,
it's pretty fun. And the thing is that those are
the same consequences if I don't pay attention when I'm
driving or like whatever else. There are plenty of the
things you do in life where if you botch it,

(34:01):
you're going to die. And yet people take some of
those things for granted it's like, oh, that's just normal life.
You're kind of like, well, you know, it's like you
got to be intentional around where you're taking your risks.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, do you think that's a helpful mindset when you
are doing things as well? To recognize it, to see
it more? Is I guess grounded in real and normal
in terms of when you're processing things. Is that a
helpful mindset?

Speaker 1 (34:24):
What do you mean?

Speaker 2 (34:25):
Like, even just the way you describe it, which I
agree with, You're like, yeah, well there's crazy risk in
this as well. And you're right, like in driving for example,
and texting and you know, all that kind of stuff
or drink driving or whatever.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, dream and driving to me is the thing people
are always like, oh, climbing seems dangerous, and you're like, well,
the thing with climbing is at least you're choosing the
risks that you're taking. And obviously I'm training for them.
I'm preparing for them. You know, I have like imagery
of the building at home, so I can visualize the moves,
you know, Like there's a lot that goes into it.
Whereas people go out and party on Friday night and
then they drive home, they're like, what else, you know,

(34:58):
it's just a Friday and partying, and you like, well,
those you're taking a tremendous amount of risk sort of unintentionally. Yeah,
I mean, and those are the types of things where
we're like, you know, it's like if you're not choosing
to take those risks, I don't know. I mean, I
think that's kind of worse.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Talk to me about the visualization because I'm such a
big fan of visualizing.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Yeah, I read about it, meditation technique.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
Talk to me about where you just said you have
a picture of the building.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
Well, yeah, so I mean in rock climbing, like when
I'm climbing hard routes, let's say, you always just imagine
the route, you think about it, you remember the moves.
Part of it is to physically remember what to do,
like left hand, right hand, like drop the left and hip,
you know, turn the knee, things like that, like the
mechanics of it. And then part of the visualization is
like what will it feel like, particularly around freesoling things

(35:42):
that you're not going to be able to practice necessarily,
So some of the visualizing is just you know, like,
how will it feel to put my foot on something
that's really slippery when you know I'm going to die
of its lips, and so you're just kind of imagining
the sensations and all that that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
So you can't as part of free selling, you can't
go and climb this building at any point in order
to practice.

Speaker 1 (35:59):
Well, I can go practice it with a rope, okay,
but the thing is you just don't know, because when
you have a rope on, you don't really mind if
your foot's going to slip or something. But then when
you take the rope, boy, you're kind of like, well,
is it going to feel different? Like, I don't know,
And you can't totally practice that, so you kind of
have to do that mentally, just imagine it.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
And yeah, you get a sense while you're on the rope,
almost as a dress rehearsal, Yeah, feeling, and then you're
having to remember that feeling.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
Yeah, and sort of imagine the potential feelings because it.
Part of the benefit of visualization, I think is that
you're like, what if it's humid that day, what it's
particularly dry, and like with the building It's interesting because
with glass and metal, you know, the texture is obviously
really different than rock, and so I'm not sure if
I want it to be humid or if I want
it to be dry. Like with rock, you normally want

(36:40):
it to be super dry because it's human it's too
slippery on the rock. But with a building, because it's
so slippery to begin with, I think you actually want
some humidity so it doesn't feel as slowly like you
want your skin to stick to it a little bit,
and so you want like a little bit of dampness.
But obviously you don't wetness. You don't want it to
be wet because then it's really slipvery So anyway, just
thinking about stuff like that, I mean, that's all part
of visuals, and I think, but what I was going

(37:01):
to say is that with rock climbing, you know, you
don't normally have footage of any of this type of stuff,
so you just imagine it. You remember, you think about
the climb with this building. You know, we already went
into a scout and they're practicing the camera positions. They
fluid drone up and down the building to I figure
out the angles and all that kind of stuff. And
so I never I don't think I'd ever done this before,
but I kind of reached out the production team was
kind of like, send me, you know, selects of the

(37:22):
whole building so I can remember all the all the
different sequences better. And so they sent me just some
visuals of the building, but then they also sent me
some clips of me climbing different things, and I was like, oh,
this is actually tremendously useful because I can see, you know,
how I'm doing it and what I can do better,
and just you know, I was like, oh, this is great.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
I love that you use visualization as a technique.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Though every climber does. It's a really big part of climbing.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
And you're visualizing the process, the texture, the feeling, everything, Yeah,
every detail that you could possibly imagine or not from.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
And sometimes you imagine, you know, the experience, like the
consequences of it are like what if you do fall,
Like I mean, like particularly with freeswing all cab, like
with I've spent so long kind of working on that.
I mean, I thought about, like what if I fell
from here, fell from there? Just because and even though
those are terrible things to visualize, because you fall into
your death in horrible ways because you know, in a

(38:10):
lot of places, falling off a mountain it's not like
a clean it's not like I fell and then you
hit the ground. It's like you bounce, you know, hundreds
of feet or a thousand feet, and it's a disaster.
And so but it's important to think about that stuff
ahead of time so that when you're up there, you
don't suddenly for the first time. You know, it's not like, oh,
if I fell here, it would be horrible. It's like, No,
You've already thought about that, you visualize it, you processed it,
and you've chosen to set that aside and execute the

(38:33):
climb anyway.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah, you've already sat with the discomfort of that feeling
in a safe environment exactly, So now you can track
them and bring that with you to this day.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Yeah, now you don't have to think about it while
you're up there. Yeah. I mean, ideally, you think through
all that stuff ahead of time. And so far with
the building, I haven't gotten too deep in all that yet,
just because I'm still kind of a ways out and
I'm sort of focused on the physical side, and it's
just not quite as close to my personal edge. I
think I'm pretty sure, Like I just I think it
should be well within my comfort zone. I think. So
there's just not as much time to vote to like

(39:03):
what if I die? But you know we'll see no no.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
I But I love the visual do you what's interesting
to me? Because I'm thinking about all of us and
I you know, I think the smallest things in the
world would be easier if so. For example, I've been
public speaking for years and I've always asked for a
picture of the stage so that I can visualize myself
walking out so that I don't trip over when I
go out there, so that I and I think about

(39:28):
all that. And I'm giving a very human example of
something like that that I hope my listeners can take
away going Okay, well, how do I use that? I'm like, yeah,
I visualize myself giving presentations. I visualized myself doing difficult
things for the first time. I visualized pretty much everything.
I use it as a technique.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
You're a trained visualizer us. It's easy tool for you
to pull out of the box, for.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
Sure, but I would really encourage people to do it
because hearing you talk about it, I'm like, yeah, you're
visualizing all the details and what I love that you
haven't once said, and I want to ask you about this,
is you didn't just say, oh, I visualize myself getting
to the top and celebrating. It's like, no, I visualize.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
Care about that? Yeah, yeah, I thought you didn't.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
That's talk to me about that, because I think that's
what today when we do about manifesting and visualizing, people
have this visualized way.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
You want to visualize success, right, and it's like, who
cares about that? Because like that'll just follow like if
that happens, great, if it doesn't. Whatever. Yeah, it's funny,
I haven't visualized that. Actually, I mean it's not totally true,
because the top of the buildings is an incredible little spire.
It's like a small rule. Yes, it's basically the space
between us. It's just a little dom. And so you
just stand on this, Yeah, you stand on this tiny
little pinnacle and it's incredible in the views and saying,

(40:33):
but you know, I've already gone up there, like climbed
up through the hatch just to like check it out
and repel off the side and things, and so you know,
I know it's amazing, and I know that it's going
to feel amazing to stand up there. So I don't
really like visualized that because I'll just you know, it's
like when it happens, it happens. But no, you visualize
this stuff that's important. But actually, I mean talking about this,
you think, I think in some ways, if you're talking
to like the late person audience, whatever, I think maybe

(40:56):
it's worth not framing it as visualization because you know,
over the years, as a climber, I've always just kind
of thought of as daydreaming. You know. It's like because
also as a climber, you spent so much I'm hiking
to and from cliffs, and I spend a lot of
time by myself walking around, you know, in the mountains,
and you just spend a lot of time daydreaming basically,
like thinking about climbing. And so you know, occasionally, like

(41:17):
a project like this, I'll intentionally visualize whe I'm like, okay,
I'm getting ready for a thing. But basically, anytime I
go wandering in the mountains, I spend a tremendous amount
of time just thinking about you know, like your mind's
always wandering on something, it might as well be wandering
through climbs that you're excited about or things that you're
thinking about, or projects that you have, like things on
the back burner that you didn't quite do that you
want to go back to. So you know, I mean,

(41:38):
I think it's less daunting to think of it as like, oh,
when you're out for a hike or like out for
a walk with your dog, you just daydream about things
that matter to you. Like that is visualization. Yes, you know,
like you can make it more focused, and you can,
you can do it more intentionally, but at the core
is just it's just imagining stuff.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yes, yes, I like that. And the truth is all
of us are imagining, but most of us are imagining
worst case scenario, imagin in the meeting and going, oh god,
I'm gonna get fired today or you know that that's
how we imagine.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
I wonder about that because so I don't really have
that so much. I didn't think you did. Yeah, and
I do kind of wonder if I'm just like just
a little less neurotic than average, like as a base hardwired,
you know what I mean. Like it's interesting. I've I've
read it, you know, I just read your book. I've
read a ton of like self help type stuff over
the years, and like all kinds of and generally I

(42:25):
read and I'm like, I'm already living my best life,
Like I love my life. I'm doing what I love
to do, and like I love that. And so I mean,
for whatever reason, I love reading books like that because
I feel like if I get one little nugget that
like helps me, it's like totally worth it. But at
the same time, I'm just kind of like, I don't
know if this book was written for me, you know
what I mean, Like, I don't feel like I'm struggling
with a lot of the things that that it seems

(42:45):
like some of these types of books are written for,
Like I'm not struggling with with inner turmoil around a
lot of this type of stuff. I'm kind of like,
is that you know, basically is that nature and nurtures?
Like is that just the way it is? Or or
is that a lifetime been outside being scared? And I
don't know. Yeah, I mean, I mean I've feel like,
how much natural anxiety do you have? No?

Speaker 2 (43:06):
I feel similarly to you, Okay, like you.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Just never felt afflicted by Like that wasn't how I
operated in general.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
Yeah, it was just not how I and I think
it's because I was exposed to so much of it
when I was young. So I think it is the
exposure of being overexposed to discomfort, anxiety, pain, stress. But
I've seen that go both ways. So I've seen that
lead to people becoming free of it or having less

(43:32):
of it, or being able to know how to manage it.
I've also seen it go towards people anxiety, and then
I've seen also people creating great success in order to
protect themselves from it. And so there's almost like it
can go in three ways. And so it's not that
simply being exposed to discomfort makes you stronger. It depends

(43:53):
on how the person reacts to it. It's almost like
there's this old story which I love, which is like
when you put three different things in boiling water, differ
and things happen to them. So it's like you put
you put a potato and boiling water, it gets softer.
You put a egg and boiling water harder. You put
coffee beans in boiling water, they let out the best scent.
And so there's this old story that goes which one

(44:13):
of you are you, you know, an egg, potato? Are
you a coffee bean? And so it's almost like the
pressure of hot water. What does it do to you?
And that's always been an interesting thing of do we
get to choose that or are we wired that?

Speaker 1 (44:25):
What does that look like? Yeah, but I think about
this stufe more and I have two little kids, and
so you know, like questions of nature versus nurture, I
just think about a lot more because you're kind of like,
you know, are we having any impact on these SHOs?
Like are they just fully baked as Oh you find it?
I'm intrigued this. Well, they're so young, it's her to tell,
but you just see so much innate in them when
you're like you're just your own little person, and you know,

(44:47):
they're probably things that we could do negatively to like
negatively impact their development, But I don't know how much
we're gonna do positive, you know what I mean. I'm
kind of like, I think they're going to be fine.
But in some ways it takes away a lot of
the stress of parenting where you're just kind of like,
you know, I'm not trying to like shape them into anything,
like I think they're going to be freaking great. We're
just trying to make sure they're happy and safe and
you know, like have their material needs met and things

(45:08):
and let them blossom into whatever they're gonna bostom into.
But we'll see. I mean, I'm just starting and I
don't really know anything about doesn't we're just winging it.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Yeah. No, I remember a friend, like I were not
parents yet, but I remember a friend like they raise
their kid with like their kid would be like playing
with fire and like jumping up and down and running around,
and it's like and I would I didn't this. I
was much younger then, and I didn't know their style,
and so I would get scared when their kid was
near a candle or something.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
It'd be like, nope, let the kid be near a candle.
Like they'll figure it out themselves. Yeah yeah, well yeah,
I'll just talk about risk taking all that. I mean,
I definitely I think with the kids, you know, obviously
I don't want to see them get grievously injured, but
I don't really mind seeing them get a little bit
injured because like see them fall down all the time,
Like that's fine. It's like I mean, as a climary,
you just fall down all the time, and like you

(45:55):
just get you know, booboos, NonStop, and so like with
the kids, you're just kind of like, yeah, it's fine
to get hurt all the time, just but we're there
to prevent catastrophic injuries and like and and now we
kind of see that already with the kids, where you're like, oh,
you know, they just seem a little bolder than than
some other kids their age maybe. But then you wonder,
is that nature? Is that nurture? Is that because we
allow them the latitude to explore like that, or is

(46:16):
that you know, because it's my daughter and whatever, you know,
I don't know. It's like my wife and I are
already sort of adventurous people or like, and so our
kids are too. I don't know, We'll see.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yeah, can you can you be a climber and be
a perfectionist?

Speaker 1 (46:31):
I think yeah, I think you can be. I mean
in some ways, I actually think I think I'm a
recovered perfectionist in some ways, well, I don't know. I
mean I think that my mom is like a major perfectionist,
like like like psycho, and so I think we were
sort of raised that way. It's like that's the that's
the norm. But I mean, but the reality is like
I'm a very lazy person, like I just often do

(46:54):
the bare minimum and things that I don't care about
or like the minimum requirement to you know whatever, and
so I don't know, like how do you reconcile like
perfections tendencies have been incredibly lazy, like I don't know stuff,
and so now I think I don't know. I think
I've hit a real sweet spot where it's like I
work really hard on the things I care about, and
then everything else I just don't stress.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that's that makes a
lot of sense. I mean that to me seems to
be a trait of highly high performers and successful people
in general that they're able.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
To know or focus on the thing that matters, yeah,
and what not that you guys absolutely and what not
to waste time on. And it's taking me a long
time to get there, I think, you know, because I
think through early life you're just so hung up on
like appearances and what you should be doing, what you
think you ought to be, you know whatever, and then
eventually you're just kind of like, you know, I'm only
good at a couple of things. I was just focus
on the thing I'm going at and just do it. Yeah,

(47:48):
just and just be happy. Don't it talk to me.
I wanted to go back.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
You were saying that right now, you're working out, diet, sleep, Like,
walk me through what that routine looks like. I love
I love learning about people who living credible lives and
their different systems that they have in place to be
able to pull off great feets.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
I mean, yeah, it's all normal stuff like eat well, exercise,
what do you Yeah, so I'm eating a vegetarian basically,
you know, mostly whole foods. I don't know, Like dinner
last night was like tofu roasted broccoli and cauliflower and
some like some purple sweet potato thing. I think that

(48:26):
was an oh, and some and Brussels sproudes. But it's
basically just a bowl of like vegetables. And it's interesting
because even like a couple of months ago, I would
have thought of that as a sort of inadequate dinner,
you know, But like the last several weeks, I've basically
just been eating like whole foods and no sugar and
like wholes and meals, and I'm kind of like, you know,
I've just kind of like adapted to it. Like this
feels good and I feel great, and you have sleeping
well and.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
How much do you try and sleep? And when do
you sleep well?

Speaker 1 (48:49):
Basically, I mean the babies have been waking up actually
are we have like a there'll be two and four
in February, so right now is like one in three
quarters or whatever. But for whatever, he's just waking up
with the mid all the night a bunch right now,
which is like a new I think it's like an
envilnmental phase. You know, it's like she's suddenly made a leap,
but she's saying way more. But you're like, god, go
back to sleep, like oh man. But so we basically

(49:11):
sleep from like ten to six every day, like roughly
eight hours every day, but then sometimes a little more
or less. But then you know, you know, the other
night I got up at three and then just like
made a bottle for my baby and like it did
a whole nother bedtime for it three in the morning,
like basically like read her a story and put her
back to bed. It's kind of like, huh, what an
unusual night. Yeah, so you know, I can't take it

(49:32):
too seriously. It's not like but you know, it's it's
enough though. I mean, we're sleeping a well.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
And vegetarian over a meat diet.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Because I'd always cared more about the environmental impact, like
just the the impact on the earth. But i also
feel like it's a little cleaner and I'm not like
super uptid about it. Like I'll eat fish and generally
I'll eat meat if it's gonna be wasted, you know,
if like somebody has a serving, I'm like, oh, what's
better than throwing it away? But I just don't buy meat,
and I don't really do dairy.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
I think you find that affects your performance too.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
I think I'm kind of like it in tolerant a
little bit, and so I'm kind of like it's probably
not like the best, but yeah, it's just but again,
it's also better for the earth. I'm kind of like
it seems better, right. Interesting. The main thing for me
is noting desserts, like not eating extra sugar. It just
keeps everything. Yeah don't then that's well, I actually so interesting.
I'm maybe like two weeks into eating really well right now,

(50:24):
and you just lose the cravings. Yeah, you feel once
you get past that.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
I go through periods of being completely off and then
I have like you know, during Christmas.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
Time, I'll probably yeah, exactly, gravel a little bit again.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
But when I'm off, I feel like my taste MUDs changed.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Yeah, you just feel so much better. Yeah, I know.
It's all the things you read about in books that
you're just like, nah, that's stupid, and then you actually
experience it and you're like, well, it does seem like
it's true. Man.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Imagine it's the twenty second of January.

Speaker 1 (50:51):
What do you do?

Speaker 2 (50:52):
What's your ritual the night before? Is it different?

Speaker 1 (50:55):
Do you have a ritual? But the night before at
big time, I mean the day before be arrested. I
might do some cardio or something, go for like light
run or go there. There're a bunch of really cool
mountains like in the city, so you can go run
around them. They're like monkeys in the jungle and so
it's really cool, so you can like run around in
the mountains a little bit. So I'll probably do some
cardio or something, but basically no strengous like size, and

(51:15):
then I'll just go to better loon, you know, just
try to eat well and go to sleep. Basically, you
just want it to be normal because a normal day
it's chill and then you wake up the next day
and you do the thing.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
Yeah. It se whenever when I'm hearing you speak about it.
Which is really refreshing is that it's such a it
feels like such a natural part of your life.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
Well I think that's how you want to make it. Yeah, yeah,
because then it doesn't feel extreme, you know, it doesn't
like it doesn't require some crazy things that you do,
like this is this is what you do. This is normal.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
Yes, And I can I can liken it too. And
I'm only translating it because I always think about our listeners,
but I can translate it to in the past, if
I was sitting down with someone that I was a
huge fan of and I built that up, it would
actually make me a bad interview totally, because you're you know, yeah,
and I would do that when I first started this show,

(52:05):
and and over time people saw me relaxing and easy
in and sometimes I said to me, I was like,
it's not that I wasn't super excited, it was just
I had to continue to do my job.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
Keep it chill, keep it chill. I got this, Yeah, exactly,
so exactly what you're saying. So with with freesoling all
cap like I knew it would be the biggest thing
I'd ever do, Like I knew, I mean, I didn't
think the film would be as successful as it was,
but I knew that it would be far beyond anything
I'd ever done, because it's you know, it's a future
documentary and whatever, and I knew the climb would be insane.

(52:36):
But at the same time, you know, the main challenge
of freesoling is psychological. Like I had climbed del Cap
with ropes, you know, many years before. I'd without falling
off many years before. Like technically I was physically able
to do it many years before. But the psychological challenge,
the believing you can do it, and you know, when
your life is on the line, that like that's a
that's a bigger challenge. And so I didn't want to

(52:57):
build it up even bigger in my mind because you're, like,
the challenge is already psychological. I don't need to like
pile on and make it even harder. And so a
big part of my strategy with ol Cap was to
make it part of my normal year. And so, like
right after I freesol it our Cap, I went on
this exhibition to Alaska, which is like a normal As
a professional climber, you go on trips to places, you

(53:17):
try to climb new walls, whatever, And so it allowed
me to look at my seventy season that year. It's
kind of building up for Alaska. And actually in the
Alaska trip was because I went on an exhibition later
in that year to Antarctica, and I was kind of like, oh,
I haven't been on skis in a while. It would
be nice to like do some glacier travel and climb
some big granite spires on snow because it'll be good
for Antarctica. And so I was kind of like, oh,
U seventy season just building up for Alaska, which is

(53:39):
building up for Antarctica. And so I took a lot
of the pressure off having to achieve on El Cap
or whatever, because I'm like, oh, either way, this is
practice for these other things coming up. And I mean,
I knew that the other things don't freaking matter comt
of f resoling our cap, but you know, it's like
it's good to keep it, keep it feeling chill. So
I mean, I've always been into sort of stacking my
goals in that way, trying to make sure that you

(54:01):
don't let them get too big. You know, it's like
you keep it all I don't know. Yeah, so the
building's kind of the same way where I'm like, obviously
that's more important than some of the other things I'm
working on right now, but I do have a bunch
of other climbing projects that are sort of intermixed with
the training, and so it keeps it all feeling mellow.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
Yeah, when you when you sum it like l CAP
or anything like that, where you where you reach the top,
how do you find you process that feeling? Like, what
does that feel like to you? Is it gratifying? Do
you experience it?

Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yeah, you know, I'm psyched. I'll be like this is amazing. Yeah,
I mean with ol Cap, it was such a long
and it was so on the edge of what I
thought was possible, and so it meant a lot. You know,
it meant a lot to me. I put so much
into it, and the pressure with the film crew and
all this stuff. I mean it was insane. So it
definitely was like this is this is amazing. I mean
the building too. I'm sure I'll send at the time
and be like this is awesome. I'll be so psyched,
But then you know, I'll take the elevator down and

(54:53):
be like, Okay, what a day. I was, like, what
a joy. I'm sure I'll be glowing like until I'm
back home. But then as soon as I fly back
to to my own Las Vegas, I'll be back to
normal climb projects like things that because I wouldn't be
at all surprised. Basically, there's several other things I'm trying
to do at home as a sort of build up
and training for the building, and I wouldn't be surprised
if I don't manage to do any or all of them.

(55:15):
You know, we'll see which things I managed to do,
and so as soon as I finished the building, I'll
just be back to try to finish my training goals. Basically.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
Yeah, is it right you were talking about waking up
and the baby being awake at night. Is this the
first time you're doing a climb as a father and
a husband.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
No, No, it's not. I mean I've done a handful
of things that that are cutting edge with the kids. Actually,
I did kind of my hardest like free solo to
date for the Spear Like it'll be this cool like
in saying there's a bunch of the same crew from
Free solo, so it's like the same same co directors
and stuff, and so it's really fun to get run
back together and we and I free sold this wall
in Jordan in the Middle East. It's like twelve hundred

(55:49):
foot sandstone wall, and it was probably I told my
wife it's like probably top ten hardest things I've ever sold,
in which she was like, top tens, like kind of
hard because I've actually done way more than what's in
the public, like like on film, because just building up
del Cap, I did like a ton of things that
were that are very hard. And so this thing for
the sphere that was probably the first thing I've done

(56:10):
with kids where I was like, this is actually kind
of cutting edge and pretty hard. And before doing it,
I was kind of like, is this going to be different,
you know, like am I going to be up there
thinking about my kids being like, oh god, this is
so scary now? But I got up there and I
was like, this is awesome. So it's like, is this amazing?
While it's a really classic greed, it's it's famous, and
it's uh, it's it's really high quality. And so I
was just up there and being like this is so amazing,
and I felt great.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
It's what you can experience that in the sphere in Vegas.

Speaker 1 (56:33):
In the next next fall, I think, so I got
years of cool. Yeah yeah, well we'll see. Uh. I
think it's hard to film for something like that, you know,
it's hard to shoot on these crazy cameras. So we'll
see how it turns out. But in theory, next uh,
next fall would be a thing like that. Just this
might all need to get gout. But like, I don't know,
ask someone who's smarter than me.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
Yeah, I just I just I just went to watch
Wizard of was then. But it was insane. Yeah, I
heard really incredible. I was so blown away by it.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
And I can't imagine, you know, yeah, that's the things
I think seen Solong like that would be. I can
say it would be amazing. Yeah, real experience.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
So it's interesting you said that you know you've done
to hear you say you've done crazier, harder climbs that
have never been documented.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Well, not harder than El Cap, but leading up to
El Cap actually, so let's see. I mean I can
remember so leading up to ol Cap, I had three
other routes that were very h I mean, they're similar,
they're not as hard and they're not as big, but
they kind of led up to it, and one of
them got filmed for YouTube basically, and then the other
two never nobody ever even saw them, you know, like

(57:54):
like one of my friends saw one of them with
binoculars from the parking lot. This is one area, but
like basically nobody saw any of the other side one
of them. Not only did nobody see it, like nobody
was even in the climbing region. I went in and
I'd been planning on prepping it for several days, but
then my van ran out of propane and it was
like this insanely long, windy road to go back to town,
and I was kind of like, oh, I can't cook,
and so I was like, screw it. So I just

(58:14):
did the soul the next day so I could drive
back out and just leave because I didn't want to
because I couldn't cook and I didn't want to take
a whatever. So I was like, well, that's the ultimate
like rushed solo. You know, you're kind of like nobody
saw it. Nobody, there was no plan. I just like
got it done and left. Yeah, So I've done a
lot of things like that over the years.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Well, do you do you have conversations with your wife
before you decide what you're going to climb and stuff
for is this kind of like this is what I'm doing?

Speaker 1 (58:38):
And yeah, no, for the most part. I mean when
we first met, I mean like, if you've seen the
free film pre solo, it all sounds pretty you know,
like like I don't care at all about her feelings,
and I think that's gives a slightly wrong impression, just
because at that point, I've been dreaming about al Cap
for you know, eight years or something, and then i'd
met I actually met my now wife at the exact

(58:58):
same time that we started filming for the the documentary.
So we filmed for sort of two years to make
that documentary, and so that was the first two years
of our relationship. And you know, I was like, oh,
she's amazing and this is great, but you know, it's
some random PERSONI I got six months ago. Like it's
not going to get in the way of a life dream,
you know. But now it's totally different because I'm like, oh,
we've been together ten years, we have kids, we have
a life together, like you know, I live with like

(59:20):
my in laws, and then you know, it's all, it's
all much more tightly woven, and so her opinion matters
a lot more for projects.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
Now, how did you know she was the right person?

Speaker 1 (59:29):
I know, she's just she's so great. I mean, I
think when I proposed there was I said something along
the lines of, you know, like this is great. Can
we just keep doing this forever? You know, Like was
like why not? Yeah. I've never been into the big
like romantic gesture type of thing because I kind of
think the day to day life is like one of
the things that I think is great in our in
our late like we have what we call sleepovers at night,

(59:51):
Like basically at night we always chit chat for a
really long time, which is detrimental to our sleep, but
it's like but whenever we go to bed, we always
have like you know, we chitchat for a while. And
I'm like, oh, it's so nice. You know. It's like
you want to have a buddy that you chitchat with
your whole life, Like I don't know, I want to do
that forever. I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Man, does she find obviously what you do inspired? Like,
how what's her take on it? Like if she was
here right now? And I was like describe what Alex does,
like how it feels for her.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
What would you say, I don't know. I don't know.
I mean, you know, she must be at least slightly
impressed by it. I mean, she didn't meet me at
a book for but at the same time, yeah, well, actually,
though she didn't really climb at the time, her friend
was into it, and so her friend basically dragged her along, like,
come to this event, and she had just gotten disillusioned
with dating apps. And she was like, the next person
I see that I think is cool. I mean to

(01:00:35):
give him my number. And so afterward I was like
signing books and she just gave me her number and
I was like cool, and so I texted her and
then I never married. You know, long story short. Yeah,
yeah it was cool. But yes, obviously she must care
a little bit, but I don't think she cares that much.
She climbed too, Yeah, yeah, now she's she basically kind
of started climbing roughly the same time that she had
just started when we met. And so now it's been

(01:00:56):
ten years and you know, now she's quite a good climber.
Well that's awesome. Will you ever do a climb together? Well,
we climb together all the time, not like extreme climbing,
but yeah, we try to climb together as much as possible.
Now with the two kids, it's a little harder for
us to go out together. But then now, I mean
sometimes we go on sort of climbing trips as a
family and then the kids just run around the forest

(01:01:16):
and play and we boulder. It's like we're going to
do a family bowlding trip in France in the springtime.
It's like a really famous bowlding destination. But it's amazing
for the kids because its basically a sandy forest with
you know, nice soft trees and sand everywhere, So the
kids just roam and play. It's like, really cool.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
Is there a part of the world that you're fascinated
by that you haven't visited yet?

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Act she's Southeast Asia. I mean, I wouldn't say I'm fascinated,
but I've never been. I always wanted to, and there's
tons of climbing. It's also kind of hot and humid,
and so I'm sure I'll go at some point. But honestly,
I traveled quite a lot before before I had my
wife and kids. You know, I was kind of a
broad like maybe three months a year or something for
climbing trips and a lot of that. Now I'm kind

(01:01:56):
of waiting until the kids are a little older, because
I'm like, if I'm going to travel, I'm want to
take the kids, and I want them to be old
enough to remember it and have a real life experience.
So I think, in general, are traveling is a little
bit on hold until kids are older, and then I'm
like really excited to show them some of these places.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Do you believe your work has a message or a
mission beyond personal joy and fulfillment and thriving in play
or is it truly that?

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Is it? I mean, not that big of a mission.
I mean, so part of the reason that I started
the Honol Foundation a long time ago, I mean, I
started this foundation, the sports community solar projects around the
world was that, you know, I had a lot of
work opportunities that I didn't necessarily need to take because
I didn't need the money because I was living by
myself in a band. I was kind of like, you know,
I don't need to make this. I mean, this is

(01:02:41):
a lot of the stem from one specific experience where
I shot this commercial for a bank, and you know,
and they wound up airing the commercial a ton And
this wasn't even like it wasn't even for me as
like a famous climb or anything. It was like Sagrades
or whatever, like screen actors girls. I just signed the
normal contract, but they wound up using the ad a ton.
It aired all the world, and so I made, you know,

(01:03:02):
like six figures or something off of like a day
and a half of shooting. And I was like, well,
there's no justice in that, you know. And the thing
is is that it was work that I would have
done for free, because it's like you're going out with
your friends and you're climbing in some spire and they're
shooting with a helicopter and it's super you know, it's crazy,
it's like super fun work. You're like, this is a
total life experience that you would do as a rest
day anyway, you know what I mean, Because like when

(01:03:22):
you're shooting commercial like that, it's not like you're training.
It's not like it's hard, and so you're doing it
as a rest day and you're like, well, either I
would have sat in my van and read all day,
or I can go like climb the spire with my
friend with a helicopter. It's insane. So you're like, obviously
you want to do things like that, but I was
kind of like, I don't need the money from it.
I don't like need to do this type of work.
And so part of starting my foundation was kind of like, well,
it's a nice way to funnel all that, you know,

(01:03:43):
sort of funnel the notoriety, the you know, the money,
like all that stuff can just go into something that
seems slightly more useful because I like saying yes to
those types of opportunities. But it's like, but it feels
kind of you know, it's not like I'm saving up
for a yi, you know, like I don't I don't
need that, and so it's nice to have like a
reason to to funnel it all into something.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
Yeah, that's awesome. And then I know, you just launched
your podcast Planet Visionaries as well, right with yeah Planet Initiative.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Yeah, yeah, actually we didn't just like we launched the
new season. I've done I think three or four seasons
with them now, but yeah, that's like one of my
favorite you know, we're i mean, you know, like interviewing
people that are interesting and yeah, so with Planet of Visionaries,
I'm interviewing. Uh, you know, conservation is like marine bolag
is like basically people who are doing something useful in
the world. And every time I have one of the conversations,

(01:04:33):
it's like, oh, you come out of it feeling yeah,
you know, inspired, Yeah, like recharged in a good way.
It's kind of nice. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
And so how you pick Are those people you know,
in a friendly with or are they people that you're
just fascinated by.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
You know, they're they're often people working through the rollers
Perpetual Plant Initiative. Uh, these rolics actually just funds a
surprising amount of conservation work like that. People don't really
know that, but uh, but so a lot of them.
You know, somebody like Sylviet Earl, who's like her deepness,
she's a she's like the Jane goodall of the ocean.
She's been a Rolex testimony since like nineteen fifty years,

(01:05:05):
so I don't know, she's like I think she's ninety.
She's still like scuba diving and you know, creating marine
protected areas around the world, trying to like help protect
the ocean. And so interviewing people like her, you know,
they're just like part of this whole whole world, and
then occasionally I interview folks like I've interviewed a few
like grantee partners from the Huna Foundation, like some of
the organizations that we've supported doing community soul around the world.

(01:05:27):
I've interviewed for them just to highlight the type of
projects that they're doing and why those tubs of projects matter.
I mean, we're kind of always looking for good guests,
if you know, you know somebody absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
I was actually because I became friendly with Munia recently
from Rolex and she was telling me about the show
and everything that they were trying to do with the
So I actually, there's there's a guest. I always his
name escapes me, but I met him recently and he
was fascinating. So I left to Yeah, I thought of
him to Munia too, and I was like, oh, I'm
going to see Alex. I'll just tell you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
Yeah, we were doing you know, the first season or
two is like roll somembassadors and things like that, and
then you're kind of like, well, there are only so
many and it's like and so you started like broadening
it out a little bit. We're kind of like, really,
anybody who's doing inspiring work protecting the planet. Yes, it
is worth. I mean in many of the guests that
I talked to, it's like it's interesting because they're doing
conservation in a slightly different way or you know, a

(01:06:18):
slightly different approach. I don't know. I like to think
of the interviews as like kind of mini little Ted
talks or something where it's like, what's the little nugget
that you're trying to give to the audience, Like like,
in what way can they see the world differently as
a result of having listened to this? So I don't know,
it's it's it's pretty fun, fun interviews.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
I mean, as you know, yeah, absolutely absolutely, yeah, I'd
love to. I'd love to. I wanted to ask you, Alex,
I wanted to share one more thing, but I'm going
to wait for it to come through actually because I
believe we have this, So I'm just waiting.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
For it if a good time. Okay, thank you so much,
thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:06:54):
Wow, so pro I need to tell it proper, like
where's so we had to do it for moments like this,
so Alex, you know, we were so excited about what
you're doing. And you know, as I said, I'm such
a fan from before that it's it's really a joy
to learn. It's I find it so refreshing when I

(01:07:15):
sit with someone who kind of bursts every myth that
you have about the thing, right, like I think we
all have certain It's like what you said, the questions
you usually get asked, or the kind of hype that's
built up around this is how this person breaks through
fear and what they do. And then when I sit
with you, I'm like, oh, I love how the way
you approach it is flow is play, is real, is

(01:07:38):
life is joy?

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
Is you know?

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
And and that's not what I would know or anticipate
if I didn't sit with you deeply and have a casual
conversation with you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Yeah, it's extreme.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
Yeah, and I love that it isn't like you know,
it's beautiful when you're when your bubble gets burst and
the myth breaks because you get to understand a human
on a deeper level. And so we'd reached out to
your mentor Tommy, who'd sent a letter for you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Tommy sent a letter. Yes, oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Would you like to read it? Would you like me
to read it out loud?

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
What would you prefer? What's better for you? You should
read it. It's for you, so I'll read it to you. Yeah,
so he says. And all we asked him was for
a letter for you because you were coming on the show.
Oh I'm already do I need to leave deeply uncomfortable,
all right, So this is what Tommy said. He's a
dear Alex.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
When this podcast asked me to write you a heartfelt letter,
I had to laugh. A Few things make one of
the most mentally strong men in the world squirm more
than public affection, especially from someone close. But I'm doing
it anyway because people should know the man behind the
fearless facade. When I climb with you, mountain shrink to
half their size. At first, I thought it was your

(01:08:46):
systems and efficiency, but over the years I've realized it's
something deeper. You're unwavering belief in a positive outcome more
than free soloing. That is your superpower. When you believe
things will work out, they almost always do. You've helped
me see that so much of what feels heavy or
scary in life is mostly imagination. Whenever I come to

(01:09:08):
you with relationship worries or questions about how my kids
are growing up, you reframe things until they suddenly feel manageable,
And every time you've been right, you bring humor and
lightness to places no one else could, helping the people
around you believe they cannot only survive, but thrive. Your bluntness,
your unfiltered honesty, might feel harsh coming from someone else,

(01:09:31):
but from you, it builds trust. Everyone close to you
understands it comes from a genuine desire to see people
reach their potential. I also wish the world understood your generosity.
You create abundance in everything you do and then give
it away to friends, to family, to everyone around you.
We come from a culture that values obscurity, one that

(01:09:52):
assumes fame diluteses intention. Maybe that's why calling you an
entertainer feels strange. But you've shown that you can go
big without losing who you are, and if the world
is going to be entertained by anyone, I'm glad it's you.
Knowing you and calling you a friend has been one
of the greatest lucky events of my life. I love you, man, Tommy.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
That's that's really nice. I was kind of like, did
he write this? And then as he got into I
was like, oh, no, he wrote this. Yeah, I'm like, no,
that's incredible. I'm like, that's the nicest thing. That's so nice.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
It nearly prot is to my eyes reading that's the
first time I already.

Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
I've not seen it before now either it's yeah the time,
I am shocked, and you know, I'm like, what a
nice man. I wonder when he wrote this. He actually
stopped by her house just the other day. They were
driving for family Thanksgiving and so they just stopped for
a night, just a camp along the way. I'm like, oh, so,
how did you climbing? I mean, well, he was one

(01:10:49):
of my childhood hero is, Like he's one of the
most famous climbers in the in the world. And even
when I was a kid, you know, he was he
was one of the best climbers ever. So I always
looked up to him. It was like, oh, one day,
you know you like him. And then at some point
we just met on the road, you know, both like
two climbers, and I think we were maybe in Squamishes
Spun British Columbia. But then but then I sort of
sought him out for a couple of climbing objectives and

(01:11:11):
then once we started climbing together, it was like game
on well.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
I loved what he said about you having the ability
to reframe things, and would you say that to your
Super Bowl.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
Well, I mean I think that's just normal. I don't know.
I was like, why I build it up is bigger
than it needs to be. Yeah, yeah, it's funny, he said.
He does jokingly call me an entertainer because I've done
TV shows and things now, so he's always like, oh,
you're an entertainer, and I'm like, no, because you know,
I'd like to at least think of myself as like
more of a high performance athlete or whatever. I used
to jokingly call myself a high performance clothing model because

(01:11:44):
when you're a professional climber, it basically means you're sponsored
by a parel companies. And so I was like, oh,
I'm a clothing model, but I send you know, like
I go hard. And now Tommy's like, oh, you're an entertainer.
You're just like a TV personality, and I'm like no,
but send it, you know. But the thing is, I
don't mind being a TV person as long as you
can actually the thing you're trying to do, which is
like climb hard, climb well, like do things that you're
proud of Yeah. Absolutely, but Tommy, what a sweet man?

(01:12:07):
What else tuck out to you? What else is? What
else is well resonated with you? Yeah? No, no, no, it's
just all.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
It's a beautiful live It's very heart felt for a
man who knew you were going to run out of
the room.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
When you I know. That's actually yeah that Yeah, nothing
makes me swirm like public affection essentially if somebody class
that's so true. Yeah, no, I'm so I'm so impressed
that he wrote this. Well you can keep it. Oh yeah, no,
like I should put this on my wall.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Yeah, definitely, yeah, absolutely, frame.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
Like what a nice uh holding well do you do
that for guests? Occasionally? Very read? We don't do it
for everyone for the right time a guest, Yeah, for
the right guest, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:51):
Who he feels at an exciting moment doing something new,
doing something fresh, like interesting, but it feels right.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
That's such a nice that's such a nice idea.

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
It's one of my it's one of my favorite things
to do because I feel like, like you said, like
I think in our day to day we love people,
but we don't say it like that. And you don't
get many chances in life to reflect and so I know,
I love reflecting on people, and I've appreciated when people
have done it for me, and it's yeah, it's one
of my favorite things to do. I have this activity
I do with when I'm doing workshops in companies sometimes

(01:13:21):
where I'll take a group of leaders who, despite achieving
great things, their biggest worries that they're bad parents because
they're so busy. And we always have their kids write
a note to them and it's stuck under their chair
and it's really special because.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
That Yeah, and you also get to see what kids
actually value versus what.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
You think they value. So you're thinking, like, oh, when
I bought them that big gift, when I took them
on that fancy vacation, it's like that kid just remembered
You've read a story to them before they went to
bed last night, Like that was the win. The win
wasn't some you know, grand gesture or some big event
in their life. It was this tiny moment where you
actually present. But Alex, oh, co on, you're gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:14:02):
Say something, I'm just like, no, I'm so touched. It's funny.
I mean, you know, I just read I think like
a mark. Yeah, and someone one of my friends are
just asking me like, oh, what are your takeaway is,
like what do you feel like you gain from And
I was like, oh, there's a lot you know around
like kindness, compassion, things like you know, caring service, like
all these types of like feel I was like, you know,
I think I have a lot of room for improvement
all of those things, like, you know, because there's a

(01:14:22):
lot in the book that I'm kind of like, yeah, no,
this this is fine. I got that. And then you know,
basically the whole second half of the book, I'm kind
of like hmmm, like that's that's not quite my sweet spot.
And we're like, yeah, like there's there's something to be
learned there, just like oh it's yeah, just give something
to think about. Yeah, like sweet Tommy.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that, Alex. We end every
episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions
have to be answered in one sentence, and so, Alex Honold,
these are your final five. The first question is what
is the best advice you've ever heard or received.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
I'll just go for it. Just try that's my advice.
It's worked for you. Yeah, yeah, I mean this is
more than one sentence. Six, but yeah. I mean it's
better to try something and fail than to not try it.

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
Yeah, does second question? Does failure even? Do you even
ever think about failure?

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
Well, a failure means death, and yeah, you think about
it a lot. No, I don't know. Can I give
more than one sentence? Yeah, I mean yeah, because it's
interesting because in climbing failure, like basically, as a climber,
you fail all the time, NonStop, Like is the climber,
You basically try projects and you fail on them over
and over and over until the one time you succeed,
and then as soon as you succeed, you move on

(01:15:35):
to the next thing. And so like yesterday, I failed
on a project that I've been working on on and
off for like five or six years or something. I've
been trying it forever. It's like my life brudge, and
I almost did it yesterday, and hopefully I'll do it
on Sunday, which is the next day I get to
go back there. But basically I will spend years, literally years,
failing on something and then I'll do it once, which
will represent about, you know, thirteen minutes of high performance activity,

(01:15:58):
where like try really hard me less than that. I'm
not sure how long it takes to climb. But it's
like in the minutes and then after you know, years
of failure, I'll have six minutes of success and then
I'll move on to the next thing. It's like, so
as a climber, it's like you don't really define it
as success and failure because you literally you spend all
your time failing.

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Again they exposure therapy.

Speaker 1 (01:16:18):
Yeah, it's like you're just always failing. But that's the
whole point. The whole point is you go out and
try things that are hard for you. So by that definition,
you're not failing, you're just going climbing, Like climbing is failing. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
Question number three, what's something that you used to value
that you don't value anymore?

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
Sort of saying, I mean maybe like the public acclaim
to some extent. I think you know, when you're alone
in your van, you're kind of like, I just want
to like be known. Basically as you can get laid,
You're like, oh, I just want to meet somebody whatever.
And then once you actually have something that you're like,
I don't really need all that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
But how long did you spend in that van?

Speaker 1 (01:16:51):
I think I live in the van twelve years. Twelve years?
Yeahs and yeah, I mean I had some girlfriends on
off and various sayings and yeah, but basically lived in
the van from at twenty to thirty. Yeah, maybe a
little more than that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
Were you happy then?

Speaker 1 (01:17:03):
Oh? Yeah, it's great, But I just knew that I
wouldn't want to do that my whole life.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
What was it that made you happy then? But knew
it wasn't What you are?

Speaker 1 (01:17:10):
Living in a van is amazing when all you're trying
to do is climb at at your limit, but barring
even the obvious, like you'll lose motivation, you just don't care.
You know, after ten or twenty years of doing something NonStop,
full tilt, you're like, you know, do I need to
do another twenty years of that? And I knew that
one day I had one family, and you know, it's
like my aspirations to diet eighty with grandkids around me,

(01:17:31):
and it's hard to do that if you live alone
in a van. That is that really the dream? Yeah? Yeah,
I think so. That's the way some of my grandparents died,
and I'm like, that's a great way to go.

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):
Would that make you feel content? Like, if you were
looking back on your life at aight, what do you
think would stand out to you?

Speaker 1 (01:17:48):
Well, my grandma, my last grandma, died at ninety five,
I think, you know, surrounded by family. I'm kind of like,
that's a good way to go, Like I would be
delighted to have that, have that playoff.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
Yeah, that's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:18:01):
Yeah, I named my daughter after my beloved grandmother. Oh really, yeah,
I mean and really like, is there anything better? You know,
it's like when you when you're dying of old age
surrounded by family and you had a good enough relationship
with them that they're naming their children after you, Like
great success and call it good.

Speaker 2 (01:18:17):
Absolutely, Alex. Is there anything that I didn't ask you
that you wish I did?

Speaker 1 (01:18:23):
No, I don't know, but I have all kinds of
questions for you, but we can chat after it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Alex. It's been such a joy getting
to know you. I feel like I totally got such
an education in what it really means to be fearless
in a way that I didn't expect. And those are
my favorite types of conversations where I'm pleasantly surprised, blown away, inspired,
and excited to see what you do on the twenty
third of jan And even though you won't care, I'll

(01:18:47):
be really for you and I'm watching. But thank you
so much and I hope we can stay in touched.

Speaker 1 (01:18:53):
Oh no, I appreciate that. That's a total pleasure.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
Thanks Alex, I appreciate that was awesome, man, Thank you
so much.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
Great.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
If you love this podcast, you loved my episode with
Lewis Hamilton. Lewis and I talk about why you should
stop chasing society's definition of success and how to be
more intentional with your goals. You don't want to miss.

Speaker 1 (01:19:13):
It like, it's not about being perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:19:14):
It's about just every day, one step at a time,
trying to be better, trying to do more. I'm learning
a lot about myself, how to break myself down in
order to be able to be better.

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