March 14, 2025 • 46 mins
What’s a recent rejection you faced?
What keeps you going after rejection?
Today, Jay takes us inside the iHeart Studio at the Doha Web Summit for a candid, unfiltered conversation with his best friend of nearly two decades, Nanda. Nanda joins Jay for an impromptu discussion that takes us on a journey through their friendship, personal growth, and the pivotal moments that have shaped their lives.
Jay and Nanda reflect on the transitions that defined them—from Jay’s life as a monk and the challenges of reintegration into the corporate world, to Nanda’s bold decision to leave his successful career in law to pursue his true passion. They dive deep into the importance of humility, resilience, and self-awareness, sharing powerful lessons on navigating failure, taking risks, and reinventing oneself with purpose.
In this episode, you'll learn:
How to Overcome Career Transitions and Reinvent Yourself
How to Handle Failure and Rejection with Resilience
How to Develop a Winner’s Mindset Without Burnout
How to Balance Ambition with Spirituality
How to Make Big Life Decisions with Confidence
Your journey is unfolding exactly as it should—every challenge, every transition, and every unexpected twist is shaping you into the person you're meant to become.
With Love and Gratitude,
Jay Shetty
What We Discuss:
00:00 Intro
03:13 19 Years of Friendship
04:05 How It Feels to Restart Your life
07:12 The Beast Mindset
09:30 Humans Function in 2 Ways
12:38 Taking a Risk for a Career Shift
19:00 Failure to Success Mindset
21:35 Start Investing in Yourself
24:55 How to Raise Resilient Kids
27:50 Your Life Becomes the Stories
31:48 Navigating Male Friendships
36:19 The Winner's Mindset
38:39 Living in the Spirit of Gratitude
42:04 Pause to Celebrate Success
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everyone, It's Jay Sheddy and I'm thrilled to announce
my podcast tour. For the first time ever, you can
experience on purpose in person. Join me in a city
near you for meaningful, insightful conversations with surprise guests. It
could be a celebrity, top wellness expert, or a CEO
or business leader. We'll dive into experiences designed to experience growth,
(00:25):
spark learning, and build real connections. I can't wait to
meet you. There are a limited number of VIP experiences
for a private Q and a intimate meditation and a
meet and greet with photos.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Tickets are on sale now.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Head to Jsheddy, dop me Forward, slash Tour and get
yours today. And what I found is that pressure doesn't
attract success and joy, and being passive doesn't attract success
and joy, and the only place that does is peace.
And peace is me saying I'm going to do everything
(01:01):
I can and then leave the result up to what
the universe is, what God wants, whatever the energy is
around me. But I'm going to do everything I possibly
can because I think there may be a lot of
people listening right now who are doing something where they
studied for it. They were educated for it, they worked
hard for it. Their parents maybe even were really impressed
(01:23):
that they did it, and now they're at an age
where they're going I think I want to change my career.
Like I don't think this satisfies me anymore.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
The number one health and wellness podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Jay Seti, Jay Shetty Only.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I'm your host,
Jay Shetty, and I am so grateful that you've decided
to join me today. This is a very special episode
because I'm in Qatar at Web Summit and right now
I'm sitting inside the iHeart studio and there are people
around the studio who have headphones on who can listen
(02:00):
to the podcast. Hello everyone outside. We've never done this
before ever, which is awesome. And I'm really excited because
my best friend of nearly the last two decades now
is in the house. He recently moved to Dubai. We're
in Doha. He's flown over so that we can hang
out because we now need to schedule our hangouts because
(02:20):
that's what happens with adult friendships. And I'm so grateful
because I thought I'd invite him on the show today
so that we can share some of the most pivotal
moments of our friendship careers life over the last two decades,
and I thought it would be a special treat for you.
So welcome to the episode, Nanda, who is in the
studio with me. Nanda, thanks for joining me.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Jay. I can't believe that we've known each other for
nineteen years and we speak probably three times a week,
and you choose to drop about half an hour ago
that I'd like to bring you onto the podcast, like,
give me an opportunity to prepare. This is my big moment.
And literally I'm meeting a berg and you're like, actually,
I think you should come on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Number That's exactly what happened.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
We were having a casual conversation, even though we have
three casual conversations a week.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And I was just like, yeah, you know, it would
be really fun.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
We've never done this before and it would be a
really good idea, and I thought it'd be fresh for
my amazing community to hear about our friendship life, the
journey that we've both been on, the journey that I've
been on through your perspective. And yes, just so everyone knows,
Nanda's had no time to prepare. We both came up
with this. Well, no, he didn't come up with this idea.
I came up with this idea thirty minutes ago. And
(03:34):
here we are, so let's de it. I've known Nanda
ever since before I became a monk, and I remember
actually saying that to you.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I wanted to do that.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I then even talked to you when I was leaving
the monastery and all the challenges of reintegration of my
health and everything else, all the way through to which
we'll talk about some of these events of spending time
in New York together in the early stages of my
career LA and now all the way through to Dubai, Doha,
and so where should we starting under.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
It's just incredible to think nineteen years is a long
long time. And I certainly remember the first time I
did meet you back in two thousand and six, and yeah,
that journey that you just talked about. The thing that
just jumps to me is I think people already know
a little bit about your desire to become a monk.
And when I first met you, you were out of
the box thinker. You were like, Okay, I know I
(04:24):
can crush it in the corporate world, but I want
to do something different. So I really want to start
with when you left the ashram. And the reason I
want to start with that is because I remember that
conversation very very clearly. You're heartbroken because you went in
with a very clear idea of I'm doing this for life,
like I'm signed up. We spoken about it many times before.
For those of you that don't know Jay, he's an
(04:45):
all or nothing guy, so a real extremist in the
sense of if I'm going to achieve something, I'm going
to go all in. So I want to want you
to really share how did that feel, because I guess
that was the first inverted commas failure for something that
was really caught who you were and what you wanted
to do. As you're offering to the world.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Well, I want people to know also that now we're friends,
but in the beginning of our relationship, you or my mentor,
because you'd been practicing spirituality for far longer than me,
and so when I first came in, you were someone
that I turned to for advice, and of course I
still do that today as a friend, but at that
time it was very much so you were sharing with
me experience insight, and so it was natural for me
(05:26):
to come to you at that time. And I've always
described it like a divorce because I think that's the
only analogy that makes sense for someone who doesn't know
what it feels like to become a monk and leave.
It feels like I got married for three years to
the love of my life and then I figured out
that it wasn't going to last and that it wasn't
going to work. So the heartbreak you'd feel from a
(05:47):
breakup or a divorce is the heartbreak I felt from
leaving the monastery. Because, let me paint a picture for everyone,
I really didn't know what I was going to do.
I think a lot of people feel like I had
a plan, or I had a strategy, or I.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Knew what I was going to do. I had no clue.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
And if I'm completely honest, I was really scared about
going back to the workplace because I was worried. I
was thinking, wait a minute, do I have to go
back into consulting or financi or business because that's what
I would have done. Will I be able to make
it in that space? How will I be able to survive?
I've been doing what I love for three years, which
is study wisdom, teach it, share, do a lot of
(06:27):
philanthropy work. That's what I've been doing. How am I
going to do that in the workplace? So I had
no clarity. I was moving back in with my parents,
which felt like a failure. I remember the community having
judgment over my decision.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Right. It wasn't like I came back to a fanfare
of no.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
There wasn't. Yeah, in a bizarre way, there were certainly
some people that were like, oh, really, you think you
can do this? And so when you didn't end up
doing it because of the health challenges and other reasons
that came up, yeah, I'm sure it would have been
a real kick in the face. And I think we
speak about this all the time in terms of plot twist,
(07:07):
but the way the journey has then unfolded is really remarkable.
But I certainly remember those early days where it was
like I just need to pay my bills, Like what
am I going to do? Like what is my core
skill set here? And I'm sure you shared it in
other places, but all the different jobs you were applying to,
all the rejections you got, we wore Yeah, we read
(07:27):
it in books all the time, but this is real,
this is real life, and for me it's been an
inspiration seeing you on this journey. And one of the
things I want to talk about in this podcast and
in the five minutes you gave me to prepare was
was this idea of the beast mindset that you can
clock into. And we speak about this all the time.
Jay has this belief that everyone can unlock this part
(07:50):
of their brain that really fulfills their potential. And I
think that in those times of challenge, that's when your
backwards against the wall, you really found out who you were,
and I guess you also found out who your friends
were in that moment.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
I always look back to a piece of advice that
Thomas Power, one of my other mentors in life, would
often say to me. He'd say that when you're in
moments of pain, that's when you'll find your potential.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
And whenever you used to.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Say that, I used to be like, yeah, yeah, all right,
like yeah, I used to be like okay, like I
know my potential. I'm pretty okay, I'll figure it out.
And then when I was in those moments, so at
that time when we're talking about right now. I was
rejected from forty companies and I didn't even get an
interview at those companies. And I'm someone who got a
first class degree, yep, and so not getting an interview
(08:40):
at forty companies. And I'm saying this not for you
to think, oh, Jay, you're amazing. I'm saying this because
I actually feel a lot of you might be in
this position right now where you're trying to make a
transition in your career. You're trying to make a new job,
you're trying to sell a new product, you're building a
new business, and all you're getting is rejection after rejection
after rejection. And that experience gave to me was two things.
(09:02):
One was all you need is one yes. All you
need is one yes. All I needed was one company, Accentia,
to say we're going to give you a shot.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, and we're going to put.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
You on a graduate scheme at twenty five, twenty six
years old, but we're going to give you a shot.
So that's one thing. And the second thing I learned
is that it's all a game of odds. Yes, it's
all about the law of odds. And what I mean
by that is it is simply as basic as the
more doors you knock on, the more open. So if
you've not had any open doors, you just haven't knocked
(09:35):
on enough. And so I think I learned those two
really critical skills. And then fast forward a few years later,
which we'll get to, when I was four months away
from being broke, it was the same principles I had
to go back to, was all you need is one yes,
and if no doors have opened, you just haven't knocked
on enough.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Well, one of the interesting things about that is in
order to knock on doors, you need humility because the
likelihood is you're going to not on the door and
it's not going to open. It's going to take that much.
And in the monastery, obviously we focus very much on
the principle of humility. And again it sounds great in
the books, but can you actually live it, Like if
this is really my service in life, and I'm obviously
(10:15):
thinking about it now, like I transition from law to
what I'm doing now, which is as a leadership coach
and an entrepreneur and trying to sell that's not natural
to me. It's really uncomfortable, actually, And the reason it's
uncomfortable is because I have to go to people and say,
would you like my service? I'm very happy to provide
the service, but yeah, I think it requires real humility
(10:37):
and continuing to do it, not from a place of desperation,
but really from a place of service. And I think
I think you nail that, and that's why, as we say,
the universe reciprocated.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, it's a really fine point you brought out, and
it's challenging because I think we operate from two places
as humans. One is passive, yes, and so we're like, oh,
it will happen when it happens. If the universe providesids,
it will work out just the way it's meant to.
And we say these phrases, but beneath them there's an
insecurity and an uncertainty. And the opposite way we function
(11:11):
as humans is we're pressured. So we think, oh my gosh,
that person's already sold their company and they're only thirty five,
and oh my gosh, that person just made one hundred
thousand dollars doing that, and oh my god that So
there's pressure. So we either function from being passive it
will happen when it's happened, or pressure, Oh my god,
it's not happening for me. And what I found is
that pressure doesn't attract success and joy, and being passive
(11:36):
doesn't attract success and joy, and the only place that
does is peace. And peace is me saying I'm going
to do everything I can and then leave the result
up to what the universe is, what God wants, whatever
the energy is around me. But I'm going to do
everything I possibly can. And it goes back to your point.
(11:57):
And by the way, I've seen you do this, and
I think it's in I wanted to talk about it
through stories that people may not be familiar with. You
were a really successful lawyer. You were doing great, and
you decided that it wasn't fulfilling you. And I actually
want to ask you about that because I think there
may be a lot of people listening right now who
are doing something where they studied for it, they were
(12:18):
educated for it, they worked hard for it, Their parents
maybe even were really impressed that they did it, and
now they're at an age where they're going I think
I want to change my career, like I don't think
this satisfies me anymore. And it's harder when you've done
something like law which took years of training, years of
building up. How did you get comfortable with giving up
(12:38):
your feeling around sunk cost bias? For anyone who doesn't know,
sunk cost bias does an economic term which means I've
already invested so much time, money, or energy down this path.
And usually what it does is it keeps you on
that path because you think I've invested too much to
let it go. That's why people don't change careers, It's
why people don't break up from relationships, It's why people
don't do any of those things. For you, what finally
(13:01):
gave you confidence to say, you know what, even though
I'm really good at law, even though I make a
really good living, even though I have a family and
two kids, I'm still going to take a risk Because
in my eyes, me going off to become a monk
was a risk, but you pivoting your career at that
age was also a risk.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
What got you there, it was a huge risk, and
it was in terms of the investment in the sunk
cost was a three year law degree, a one year LPC,
a two year training contract, and then ten years post
qualified in law. So that's a lot of years of
studying to try and become a specialist in something. And
at that point, I think two things happen. You get
the golden handcuffs, i e. The salary goes up, and
(13:40):
whilst the salary is going up, your standard of living
has also gone up. So you've then got the mortgage.
As you know, at that point, I was already married
with two kids as well, so it was a huge risk,
but I think it came. I mean, I certainly got
some courage from you, and I'm really grateful for those
walks around central London when you were in that period
of transition and you're incurring me. And I remember you
(14:01):
specifically saying, hey, Nanda, you know when you're at your
best is when you're talking to people and when you're
coaching people and when you're public speaking, So why don't
you do that? And I'm like, oroh, that's not a career.
That's not a career. Unless I'm speaking in court, that's
not a career. So you really helped me think outside
(14:21):
of the box, and you touched on the cultural nuances
and you joke about it all the time, right, like
as an Indian, it's a doctor, a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
What's the third or a failure?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Right?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Exactly, so you were already winning.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
I was already winning in life. That was My mom
was happy, my dad is, My grandparents were happy, like
I was the chosen one. When I go to family events,
and all of a sudden, what I found was they
were resisting to change, not because they didn't love me,
but simply because they'd also come to the country and
so security was their primary driver. So out of love,
they were like, why would you want to do this?
(14:55):
You're now so close to where you ultimately want to be.
But of course, I think that's where spirituality really comes in,
because it makes us think about, well, where do we
really want to be and what really makes us thrive.
So in my case, I found a huge amount of
courage from the fact that the bits that I enjoyed
in law were like when I'd talk to clients or
when I would do conferences within the legal industry or
(15:18):
business development people people people. So I was like, okay,
I like it. Fortunate enough, I managed to go ton
to a four day week. On my non working day,
I worked and I got myself qualified as an ICF
credit coach. I started working and I got the feedback,
the validation to say, this is a runner, this can work,
and so yeah, the rest is history. But it wasn't
(15:40):
easy by any means. But I often say you need
cheerleaders around you at that time because self doubt is
going to be all over you. And so I'm so
grateful to you because I really feel like you were
a pivotal person, just as I was a pivotal person
for you when you were younger at that particular time.
You reciprocated tenfold because you were there for me and
(16:01):
maybe believe it's possible.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, no, because I saw it, and I think you're
so right.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
This is why our friends are so important in being
honest with us, in noticing our strengths, being honest about
our weaknesses, noticing our values. And I always say to people,
if any of you are struggling with what you should
do for work, sometimes just go around to your friends
and meet them one on one and say, Hey, have
a really honest discussion with me. What do you think
is my number one skill? What do you think I'm
actually good at? And your friend might be like you
(16:27):
plan the best parties, like that's what you're good at,
or you know what, whenever it's whenever there's a big event,
coming up. You're really good at event planning, and all
of a sudden, I've done this with my sister, and
I've seen that my sister's always organized lots of retreats,
she's organized lots of events. She's really talented at that.
It isn't her career, and I'm constantly nudging her in
that direction and saying, hey, have you thought about wedding planning?
(16:50):
Have you thought about birthday planning? Have you thought about
event planning?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
And so.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
But what I loved about watching you make that transition
was that I think a lot of people think, oh,
when I get a million followers, then i'll make a transition.
Oh when I make X amount of money, then I'll
make a transition, And you were actually making it while
you were there, and the sign of success was good feedback.
And so I think not postponing that transition, that pivot,
(17:15):
that switch. And I love what you said because I
think this is true for everyone. You have to have
one foot in either boat. Yes, at the beginning, so
you were gone down to a four day week. One
day became coaching, Studying weekends became that going doing the exams,
the course, and when you've got one foot in each boat.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Once you're confident enough.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
You didn't take the other thing, you take the other
leap exactly, rather than what I think a lot of
us do is we've got two feet in one boat,
the other boat so far away, and you go, oh, no,
it's all about the jump. It's all about the leap,
and you kind of amp yourself up, then you jump,
and then you fall into the water, and now you're
drowning because you're like, wait a minute, I don't even
know where the other boat is. And so I don't
want to glorify risk because I think a lot of
(17:55):
people will be like, you have to take a risk,
you got to do something big, you got to take
a leap. And I'm like, well, well you've got to
be a little bit measured and a little bit practiced
as well.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I meanf you've got a mortgage to pay, it absolutely.
But I think this point around understanding the difference between
your self awareness and external feedback and getting that balance right,
because yeah, we can amp things up in our own head,
and we can think we're the greatest speaker and the
greatest coach or the greatest podcast host, but actually the validation,
of course comes from the outside world, and you know
(18:27):
if you're doing a good job, but you're going to
find out very quickly. I think you're going to find
out quickly. But you're also going to feel really good.
For me, Like, even if I was doing a good
job in law, I didn't feel good. So that for me,
that internal compass was always very clear. This wasn't what
I was meant to be doing. And we speak about
this all the time in terms of finding purpose, and
it's a big pressure, Like people come up all the
(18:48):
time saying how do I find my purpose? But it
very much is a journey and it's not going to
be something that you sit down one day, meditate and
have that aha moment, like you've got to go and
do things. Yeah, and you've got to be aware of
like what have I been doing? So you'd always say
to me, actually, none, as long as I've known you,
you've always been doing public speaking, right like whether through
(19:10):
when I met you, that's what you're doing exactly. So
that was my go to So it was an easy
thing for me to do. So it's actually knowing that
and then having someone to validate that and support you
along the way.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, I've read something recently which I think is called
the Pigmalion effect. I don't know if you've come across it,
but it's this idea that we're better at doing things
when we think people believe in us. Yes. And so
it's when they told teachers that these kids are performing well,
and so teachers started to treat them better. Yes, and
then the kids performed better even though they weren't any different.
(19:43):
And that's a quick version of it. You can check
it out. But what was really interesting about it was
we can also do that to ourselves. And so it
works when we set higher standards for ourselves. Yes, we
start treating ourselves in that way, and it goes back
to your beast mode point of you rise to your standards.
And I think a lot of us don't know what
that means, because I think when we set high standards,
(20:06):
we usually feel we fail. Yes, we usually feel, oh no,
I'm going to feel like I failed, So I might
as well just set a lower standard exactly. And one
thing I've noticed in high performers that I really appreciate
is high standards matched with high grace. And so if
you look at the best people in the world. I
love this commencement speech that Roger Federig just gave. I'm
sure you saw it. And he talks about how in
(20:28):
his career he's lost a ridiculous amount of points. I
can't remember the exact number, but he's lost a ridiculous
amount of points, like almost forty percent of points or
forty five percent of points. And you think, wait a minute,
how could one of the greatest have lost forty five
percent of points? And he says, because all I've got
to do when I lose a point is focus on
(20:49):
the next one. And he said, if I sit there
and I'm constantly thinking about the last point and how
I should have responded, and how I should have hit it,
and how I should have placed it, now all of
a sudden, my attention's gone on the next point, and
now I've lost the next point. And that just continues.
So I love that idea that greatness came from having
a high expectation of winning every point. But then they're
(21:10):
having enough grace to say, actually, if I focus on
the last point, I'm going to lose the next point
as well.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah, And I think it's interesting that you know, you
were moved by that commencement speech, because every single commencement
speech follows that same pattern. If you've noticed, yes, right
it is. It is failure to success, and yet somehow
we are surprised that all of these people have failed.
And it's the same for me. It's like if people
think Jay's failed, I'm like, yeah, he's had like crushing
(21:38):
blows along the way, but he kept going. And it's interesting,
like law, you know, is a real perfectionist mindset. It
comes from a strong academic background, and so that is
what you're judged on, and so you're not meant to
make mistakes. But as we all know, mistakes are how
you make the journey.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, and that's how you learn. It's going to happen
along the way. And I think one thing that I remember,
which was really important part of our friendship, and I
wanted to talk about certain events.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
It was definitely that.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
So I started working at Accentia, and I was working
at a client that was close by to your law firm.
So every lunchtime we'd go on like an hour walk
around London and we'd have these conversations nearly every day.
While I was at this client.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
By the way, just in case my former employers are listening,
I was I wasn't meant to have been gone for
an hour, right, I think it was probably meant to
be a client.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I think this is true for me.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
But we've gone this hour walk and these are the
conversations we'd have, and it shows you how important that
friendship is, how important that connection is. Yes, and I
think we were both looking for an escape. But the
thing is we weren't just then making our time together entertainment.
Our time together became these conversations.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
You had done your you know, you were thinking about
doing your coaching diploma, or you'd just done it at
that particular point, and I just remember this idea of
you need to invest in yourself in order to move forward.
So at the time you were really getting too psychometrics,
it was disc was the one that you would be
rolling out constantly, and then it was MBTI and more recently,
as you know, I just got qualified in a particular one.
(23:04):
And what I loved about that was it showed me
that validation is very important to me. So even from
a personality perspective, that is important to me. So how
do I process that information. I should be aware that
I'm going to be looking for that validation, but also
know that potentially it could trip me up because if
I don't get that validation, what do I do? Do
I stop? So? I think, you know, really investing in
(23:26):
yourself is so critical, and we were taught it obviously
from a spiritual perspective from a young age as we
were coming through the monastery and so on. But even
in normal business life, the moment you stop learning and growing,
I think, is the moment you start to feel like
you're losing momentum in life and lose that joy.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
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use the code on Purpose. Well, what's really interesting is
(25:19):
that when you go to school, right, you start nursery
at whatever three four years old, and then you're basically
at school to eighteen. And if you go to university
or college, then you're there till twenty one or maybe
a bit older if you do law or medicine or
whatever it may be, or a postcrad. And what's really
interesting is that from the moment you're three or four
years old, Every year up until twenty one is pretty
(25:42):
much mapped out. Yes, so you don't actually have to
think when you complete fourth grade what comes next? You
go to fifth grade, and then you go sixth grade,
and then you go to seventh and then eighth and
then ninth and tenth.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
And you never had to think. There's no ownership, ownershment.
There's no ownership.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
And what ends up happening is as soon as you
get to twenty one and you let's say you get
a job, you can grad job, you start a job. Now,
all of a sudden, your whole trajectory is up to you.
Do you stay at this place? Do you network for
a promotion? Do you take on extra curricula? Do you
quit your job and get promoted somewhere else?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Do you switch?
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Do you all of a sudden at twenty one years old,
it's like, well, now we're not going to tell you
what to do for the next fifty years. And so
I think everyone is at a disadvantage, yes, because you
haven't had to use your brain for all of those years.
All of a sudden, you have to use your brain,
and now you're scared, so you're asking everyone around you.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
What should I do?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Is this the right path for me? Should I quit
my job? Should I get married? Should I not? Should
I write? And that confusion. I have a lot of
empathy because of that, because we weren't made to make
decisions early enough.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Now.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I'm not saying that a four year old should be
deciding what they're studying at university. That's not the point.
But there has to start becoming a little bit of
ownership about direction and about choice, because that's how you
build confidence in yourself. So most of us have never
made a made your life decision until twenty five thirty
years old. No wonder we're crippled by the anxiety and
(27:05):
the stress and the pressure that comes with that because
you didn't have to think about anything that was that
complicated for like eighteen years.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
It actually links really well to the discussion we're having
last night around so as I mentioned, I've got two kids,
and you know, the question is how do you raise
kids in this world? Oh? Yeah, it was a really
fascinating discussion. This idea of pushing them to take responsibility,
you know, not remaining under the shelter of your parents,
(27:33):
because although it's going to be uncomfortable for them. That's
the only way they're going to learn. That's the way
you're going to get the life skills to be an
independent thinker, to be someone who's really going to go
out and be able to make those difficult decisions. Also,
self awareness, Yes, you can get through a psychometric but
the real self awareness is going to come through challenges. Yeah,
and putting yourself in situations is like, am I going
(27:56):
to sink or swim? So I remember you saying this
to me when I was talking about my own son,
is like, No, there's got to be a certain degree
of challenge. He needs to know that if he falls,
you're there to catch him, but you're not there like
holding him. Yes, because otherwise he's not going to learn
to stand.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, it's knowing that. I think all of us need
to know that we're loved whether we win or we lose. Yes,
that's what all of us want. All of us want
to know that I am loved or all of us
want to know that you are loved whether you win
or you lose. And so your child, yourself, your partner,
(28:32):
what they want from you is that you love them
no matter what. But they need to be able to
win or to lose of their own choices, of their
own accord.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
And I remember one meeting that we had.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I remember when you actually flew out with me to
New York when I first moved there, and you slept
on my couch. Yes, And I remember, well, maybe i'll explain,
Maybe you can tell him what you had for breakfast, because.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
I think it was a banana from Whole Foods. So
Jay's cooking skills are awful. My cooking skills are one
one tier below that. So we were just having conversation.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Now I think we're on the same level.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Okay, Yeah, I mean I could pick out the banana,
But no, I was coming out to New York and
I was expecting, like, you know, the Huppton post thing
had just happened. It was actually it was a beautiful apartment,
like it was you know, it was a one bed,
it was, it was it was nice, like five hundred feet. Yeah,
it was cozy, I think, I think is the right
way to define it. But yeah, I was there. I
(29:28):
was there, sleeping on your couch. And it's beautiful to
think where you've come from that particular point. But go on,
you were going to say there was something particularly about
that meeting.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
No, I was just going to say that it was
one thing that you realize as you live life is
that life becomes the stories. Yes, And I remember a
few years before that, I was at a friend's wedding
in Ibitha, Yeah, and I was sitting having dinner on
the beach at my friend's wedding, and I was sitting
(29:59):
with this man who has around seventy years old, and
he was sitting there almost like in a movie scene
of He was in one of those beach rocking chairs.
There was a little fire pit that we were around
with me and my wife, some of our Janevie, and
someone else from the wedding, and we were sitting with
this man and he just had these crazy life stories.
And I remember sitting there and just thinking, I really
(30:19):
hope that when i'm his age that I'll have stories
to tell, and not stories to tell to the world,
even just stories to tell to my friends. And I
think what happens in our busy, distracted life, the events
in our life become events where everyone's there. Whereas we
have a lot we talk about this a lot that
as I have got older, group events are great, but
it's the one on one investments over the years that
(30:42):
give you stories and memories.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Who remembers the.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Big birthday party that one hundred people were at or
fifty I don't ever think about those things. I don't
talk about those things. But I can remember when you
were sleeping on the couch and we were waking up
and we were walking to the you know, the grocery
store picking up groceries coming back like I can remember that,
or I can remember the walk we used to go on.
And I think it's so important that as we get older,
I think sometimes we think I want that big birthday
(31:05):
party again, I want that feeling of being a kid again.
And it's almost like those one to one relationships are
so powerful. And I think one of the things I
really value about our friendship is I think it's become
harder for men to find these relationships in our community
and outside. It doesn't matter whether you're in a spiritual
community or not. It's just harder for men to find connection.
(31:27):
And I think for us, one thing that really helped
was you were always really vulnerable and honest and open
about your life when we first got to know each other,
and as you were my mentor It was very new
for me because mentors and teachers are generally people who
you think have it all together and you're learning because
they have it all together. And not only do I
(31:48):
disagree with that, you helped burst that bubble very early
on because you'd be really open about your challenges or
whatever you were going through. And I try and do
that with my community today. I'm really open and honest
about well. I always talk about how like me and
my wife don't have a perfect marriage. There's loads of
stuff when we'll talk about it, or you know, I
haven't had a career where everything's been easy, but I
find that as men it's harder. How have you found
(32:11):
that over time, and like, how have you navigated that
and what are your thoughts on male friendship and how
you strengthen that bond because I think a lot of
men are feeling lonely right now in the world.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, so, you know, the definition of kind of the
modern man is like a hotly contested debate and just
this idea of vulnerability. For me, I think I was
naturally wired like that, Like I like honesty and transparency,
and you know, if you're sincerely asking, I don't see
why I wouldn't be open. Actually, I think I've learned
(32:43):
the opposite. I think I was probably too open in
this world. And so something that I've learned over time
is you can't place one hundred percent faith and trust
in someone when you meet them for the first time.
You know, it's a process that you have to build
over time.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
That's a hard lesson as well.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
It is a hard lesson because and it's a painful lesson.
But we spoke about this in the past as well, like,
you know, would you want it the other way? Would
you want to be so closed and then gradually gradually
open up. I feel like, yes, there's a risk to
the way that I am. People may judge me for
being open about things, but actually I think it's it's
(33:21):
the way forward because it's what feels natural for me.
And obviously as I've got older, it's about understanding the
right people, the right time, the right place, and ultimately,
am I being vulnerable to serve that person? Because one
thing I've learned with coaching is sometimes people are vulnerable
really just to unload, right, And it shouldn't be about that.
(33:41):
It should be very much about I'm trying to serve
that person. If I can be relatable and show them
I'm not on a pedal staal. I've gone through similar challenges.
But this isn't about me, it's about you. I think
that can be really helpful and you don't need to
be a coach for that. I'm talking about basic because
you talked about friendships. I think that's where friendship comes from.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
And I think that's also how you don't become harsh
in a world that may feel harsh, like I would
rather turn up fully as I am consciously and then
however someone responds to that, Now I'm clear on where
we're at, yes, Whereas if I come all cagy and
holding back, now, I don't know whether that person's mirroring
my energy or they might be hiding something. And so
(34:22):
if I come out and I'm just fully myself and
I'm loving and I'm trusting and I'm open, then I
get a quicker sense of where someone's at and whether
our energy matches, not whether they're a good or bad person,
just on whether our frequency matches. Whereas if I lower
my frequency, thinking I'm protecting myself now, actually I'm working
against myself because I can't quickly figure out and I
(34:43):
think That's what I look at, is what's the pace
of figuring it out, like when you can speed that
up because you're fully yourself. Now you have a great
sense of Okay, trust this person. I can see where
my barriers are with this individual. And I think setting
boundaries has become such a healthy thing for adult friendships
as well.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
I think we talk about this a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
When you grow up in a big community, everyone thinks
they know you, and everyone claims to know you, and
everyone claims to be your friend, and it's really hard,
and you know, sometimes people can turn oh I went
to college with that person, or I went to school
with that person too. Oh no, no, I knew that
person really intimately. And so I think it's really important
that we set healthy boundaries. I think what's helped me
with my male friendships. And I have a lot of
(35:24):
young male friends who guys that I mentored like you
were mentoring me at the time. And I think for me,
it's always been these one on ones. I think it's
really easy as a bunch of guys to hang out,
watch your game, whatever it may be. But when you
can have these one on ones where there's space for
both of you to truly put the guard down, and
it's almost like taking your armor off. Like the thing is, men,
(35:45):
you've got to recognize that there is a desire to
be strong and be this warrior. But at the end
of the day, you've got to take your helmet off,
you've got to put the shield down, you've got to
put the sword down, you've got to take the armor off.
And that's when you can see each other's wounds and
be open about it and talk about it. And I
think I consider myself to be a warrior mindset, as
you were talking about earlier. But a big part of
(36:05):
that warrior mindset is also having that safe space where
you don't have to have the shield and the guard
up all day long and you can finally put it down.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Is that changed for you over time?
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I think I dealt with that in the beginning of
my career, where I had to be so intense about
growing and building and it's not about being mean, it's
about having a winner's mindset. I think there's a difference
between having a winner's mindset being mean and harsh. And
I was developing that winner's mindset, and I realized that
it took me a long while to realize how to
(36:35):
be with my wife and still have a winner's mindset,
but recognize it shouldn't be projected onto her.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
How do you reconcile that winner's mindset and that drive
and that ambition with the spiritual principles that you live by,
because people externally would feel like that's a real contradiction.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
So how do you do that.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I think there's a difference between being ambitious and aggressive. Okay,
I think you can be an ambitious without being aggressive.
I think aggression is something that spills over on to
other people. It's how you treat other people. It's how
you greet other people. It's how people feel when they're
around you. They feel scared, there's fear. Aggression is ambition
(37:14):
in its lowest form. And then ambition is something about you.
It's now your expectation of yourself. It's your desire for yourself.
It's what you expect and want of yourself. Aggression is
when you want everyone else to now mirror that. And
I actually remember Gorannga Das, who's my monk teaching. Of
course you know him very well as well. He actually
taught me this very early on. Because for anyone who
(37:37):
knows him as you do. He has an impeccable schedule,
so he wakes up at two am every day, meditates
for two hours before everyone wakes up to meditate, and
then will meditate, then go and cook for all the monks,
then come back. So my point is he's a superhero
as the superhuman, and anyone who tries to imitate him fails.
(37:58):
I've been there, hands hands up, been there. But the
more important thing is he told me that really early on,
that he had to realize that his expectations had to
be of himself, and that a good leader doesn't create
high expectations for others, but operates at the highest values
and expectations for themselves, and everyone rises to that because
(38:20):
they see the example. So anyway, going back to what
we were talking about with this spiritual point, for me,
ambition and spirituality should never have been put as opposites. Yeah,
and somewhere in our narrative, and this is probably one
of my favorite things. The famous quote that goes around
is money is the root of all evil, and everyone
(38:41):
knows it. You hear it everywhere, but the actual text
says the love of.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Money is the root of all evils.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
That's a really massive piece of context that is missed
in one of the most famous quotes and money of all.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
That also, the money is God's energy, correct and therefore
and therefore can be used in in service just like
everything else. But I wanted to talk about how do
you continue to live in that spirit of gratitude like
all of the achievements I've witnessed really since well when
did it all kick off? Twenty sixteen? I guess so,
(39:16):
like in the last nine years, every single time there'd
be something huge happened, like a huge guest comes onto
the podcast, I would always say to you, bro, like
this is nuts, Like this is nuts. Remember we're in
New York, Like this is nuts, And you'll always come
back and say, yeah, Bro, this is just the beginning,
Like that is your line, This is just the beginning.
(39:38):
So I really want to tap it because I don't
know what I'm ever going to get this opportunity again,
but to tap into that mindset of this is just
the beginning. What does that mean for you? And where
do you get that consistent drive and determination Because on
one level, you've made it right. You have a great family,
(39:58):
you've got great friends, including me, You've got everything that
you need, but you are you know, you continue to
reinvent yourself. So what is your driver? Where does that
come from?
Speaker 1 (40:10):
I really believe that if you get too familiar with greatness,
beauty or success, that makes you feel unsuccessful. And what
I mean by that and this idea of just the
beginning is I look at my life today as if
I would if I was looking at it from twenty
(40:30):
years ago. So when we were sitting up there in
the iheartbooth just upstairs right now, and there's a picture
of my podcast art next to like Malcolm Gladwell, who
I love and I grew up reading, and he's been
a guest on the show. And then there's Breakfast Club
with Charlemagne, who I love, and there's just all these
amazing people. I have to look at that from eighteen
(40:53):
year old Ja, yes, and twenty five year old Ja,
because when I look at it as that, my mind
is blown and I'm like, no way, Like I can't
believe this is my life. And when I sat down
on the stage, I was like I took a moment
just personally. It wasn't in front of it was internally
on just like how grateful I was to be able
to have this opportunity. And my point is I have
to look at it from the kid who watched Fresh Prints.
(41:13):
I have to look at it from the kid who
use this person's product. I have to look at it
from the kid who watched the tennis match and now
gets to interview Novakdjokovic. I've got to watch it as
the kid who watched a movie and now gets to
sit down with Michael B. Jordan, Like I have to
watch it from that perspective. But if I only look
at it from this perspective of oh, here I am,
this is my life. Now, this is normality, all of
(41:34):
a sudden it will start to feel really insignificant. And
I think that's what happens a lot where whether you
get to wake up and look at a beautiful view
every morning, looking at your partner that once you believed
when you first met them was the most beautiful person
on the planet, if you don't look at that way again,
no wonder you get distracted and whatever else. Is so
for me, it's always looking at it from it's just
(41:56):
the beginning, in the sense of let me fast forward,
let me rewind, and then the other it's just the
beginning is going I've got to have the beginner's mindset
even in this moment, because otherwise this is all going
to go away. I've got a tree to it.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
I've got to have the same hunger.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
I've got to have the same hunger as I had
on day one.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Yeah, it was Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right, and
I've seen I've seen that if you get too comfortable
in any given situation, very quickly, that dies and you
just have to keep doing. You have to keep doing
different things. What I wanted to ask about that was
how do you go and apply that? So I think
for you, people listening may think, well, jeah, that's all
(42:34):
right for you, because you know, every every month you
seem to have another epic moment, and yeah, sure you
can reflect back on eighteen year old Jay. So practically,
what does that look like for someone is and you
gave an insight into that, maybe it's your partner or
your kid's eyes, or you know, the view of just
you know, walking past the tree that you see every
single day with gratitude. But essentially is what we're saying,
(42:56):
It is having real gratitude for what you have and
and zoning into that in a real way.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
I think it's romanticizing your life. You have to be
really present in it to see how beautiful every moment is,
and not every moment is beautiful. But I think when
things were tough, i'd say something else. I wouldn't be
saying this, like, I don't think when things are tough,
I'm like, oh, be grateful for what you have. I
think that can be bad advice and can kind of
be off putting as well. When things were bad, I'd
be like, I can't wait to tell this story one day.
(43:23):
So when I was going through the failures and things
were going wrong, I'd say, I can't wait to tell
this story one day when I get to the other side. Yes,
And that gives you momentum to get to the other
side because you can't wait to tell that story. And
so I think it's a mix of mindsets and tools
that you bring out in different moments. So when things
are going well, slow down and smell the roses. There's
a reason why I smell the flowers. There's a reason
(43:44):
why that phrase is famous because when things are going well,
you can just move through them like it doesn't matter.
But when things are going badly, if you say to
yourself I can't wait to tell this story on the
other side. All of a sudden, you get momentum from
the other side rather than being like, oh god, this
is the worst thing I've ever gone through.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
But do you feel that you do celebrate your successes?
So we talk about football a lot, and we talk
about sport generally quite a lot. And we talk about
you know, world champions who have won Premier League after
Premier League and they say they lifted the cup and
then immediately it was like I enjoyed it for like
ten seconds and then it was on to the next thing.
So what does it mean to celebrate success? How do
(44:22):
you celebrate success?
Speaker 1 (44:23):
I used to have an amazing football coach that would say,
if you win, celebrate for a night and then get
back to training.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
And if you lose, cry for a night and then
get back to training great. And I love that advice
because it put the emphasis on get back to training yes.
And So I've had some amazing successes in my life
and I don't feel they've been fleeting, but they've just
been a marker that you're on the path. And the
greatest success, the greatest joy you're celebrating success comes on
(44:51):
the pursuit.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
It's the journey.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
It is that journey like that, oh you know, it's
a journey, not the end. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah, And it's like that is the part that you
have to celebrate. And that's what I mean, celebrating the
moment and going this makes my story better. Celebrating the
moment and saying I'm going to stop and appreciate this
moment of sitting on stage. Let me stop and appreciate
the fact that this is happening for me. And by
the way, sure it's easier now, but all of those
things were happening. You know. It wasn't like the first
(45:16):
day I did it. It was this either going back
to the right the beginning, when I've loaded my first
video and it got you know, five hundred views in
my first month on YouTube, by the thousand subscribers.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
I was so happy about that.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
I remember I never looked.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
At the thousand subscribers and went, why is it not
a million? And so it was there then, and I
remember our friends were like, well done, mate, this is
probably it. Yeah, no, no, no, it was this is
probably it.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
No, I don't swearming you've done it as you've hit
the cat.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
So but yeah, anyway, we could do this for hours.
I've got to run to main stage now.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
None that.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
I am so grateful to you for joining me on
a last minute request. It's been a really fun conversation.
We'll have to do this again. Amazing, And I'm so
glad you shared your journey because I think there's so
much for everyone to learn with whether our journeys are
public or private, whether whether they're you know, in the.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Public eye or not.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
We all have to make these decisions, and I think
you shared so many great valuable insights today.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Main Stage weights mayeah, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
If you love this episode, you love my conversation with
doctor Joe Dispenser on why stress and overthinking negatively impacts
your brain and heart and how to change your habits
that are on autopilot.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Listen to it right now.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
How many times do we have to forget until we
start forgetting and start remembering, that's the moment of change.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Who cares how many times
Speaker 1 (46:40):
You fell off the bicycle if you ride the bicycle,
now you ride the bike.
Hey everyone, It's Jay Sheddy and I'm thrilled to announce
my podcast tour. For the first time ever, you can
experience on purpose in person. Join me in a city
near you for meaningful, insightful conversations with surprise guests. It
could be a celebrity, top wellness expert, or a CEO
or business leader. We'll dive into experiences designed to experience growth,
(00:25):
spark learning, and build real connections. I can't wait to
meet you. There are a limited number of VIP experiences
for a private Q and a intimate meditation and a
meet and greet with photos.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Tickets are on sale now.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Head to Jsheddy, dop me Forward, slash Tour and get
yours today. And what I found is that pressure doesn't
attract success and joy, and being passive doesn't attract success
and joy, and the only place that does is peace.
And peace is me saying I'm going to do everything
(01:01):
I can and then leave the result up to what
the universe is, what God wants, whatever the energy is
around me. But I'm going to do everything I possibly
can because I think there may be a lot of
people listening right now who are doing something where they
studied for it. They were educated for it, they worked
hard for it. Their parents maybe even were really impressed
(01:23):
that they did it, and now they're at an age
where they're going I think I want to change my career.
Like I don't think this satisfies me anymore.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
The number one health and wellness podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Jay Seti, Jay Shetty Only.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I'm your host,
Jay Shetty, and I am so grateful that you've decided
to join me today. This is a very special episode
because I'm in Qatar at Web Summit and right now
I'm sitting inside the iHeart studio and there are people
around the studio who have headphones on who can listen
(02:00):
to the podcast. Hello everyone outside. We've never done this
before ever, which is awesome. And I'm really excited because
my best friend of nearly the last two decades now
is in the house. He recently moved to Dubai. We're
in Doha. He's flown over so that we can hang
out because we now need to schedule our hangouts because
(02:20):
that's what happens with adult friendships. And I'm so grateful
because I thought I'd invite him on the show today
so that we can share some of the most pivotal
moments of our friendship careers life over the last two decades,
and I thought it would be a special treat for you.
So welcome to the episode, Nanda, who is in the
studio with me. Nanda, thanks for joining me.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Jay. I can't believe that we've known each other for
nineteen years and we speak probably three times a week,
and you choose to drop about half an hour ago
that I'd like to bring you onto the podcast, like,
give me an opportunity to prepare. This is my big moment.
And literally I'm meeting a berg and you're like, actually,
I think you should come on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Number That's exactly what happened.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
We were having a casual conversation, even though we have
three casual conversations a week.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And I was just like, yeah, you know, it would
be really fun.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
We've never done this before and it would be a
really good idea, and I thought it'd be fresh for
my amazing community to hear about our friendship life, the
journey that we've both been on, the journey that I've
been on through your perspective. And yes, just so everyone knows,
Nanda's had no time to prepare. We both came up
with this. Well, no, he didn't come up with this idea.
I came up with this idea thirty minutes ago. And
(03:34):
here we are, so let's de it. I've known Nanda
ever since before I became a monk, and I remember
actually saying that to you.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
I wanted to do that.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I then even talked to you when I was leaving
the monastery and all the challenges of reintegration of my
health and everything else, all the way through to which
we'll talk about some of these events of spending time
in New York together in the early stages of my
career LA and now all the way through to Dubai, Doha,
and so where should we starting under.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
It's just incredible to think nineteen years is a long
long time. And I certainly remember the first time I
did meet you back in two thousand and six, and yeah,
that journey that you just talked about. The thing that
just jumps to me is I think people already know
a little bit about your desire to become a monk.
And when I first met you, you were out of
the box thinker. You were like, Okay, I know I
(04:24):
can crush it in the corporate world, but I want
to do something different. So I really want to start
with when you left the ashram. And the reason I
want to start with that is because I remember that
conversation very very clearly. You're heartbroken because you went in
with a very clear idea of I'm doing this for life,
like I'm signed up. We spoken about it many times before.
For those of you that don't know Jay, he's an
(04:45):
all or nothing guy, so a real extremist in the
sense of if I'm going to achieve something, I'm going
to go all in. So I want to want you
to really share how did that feel, because I guess
that was the first inverted commas failure for something that
was really caught who you were and what you wanted
to do. As you're offering to the world.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Well, I want people to know also that now we're friends,
but in the beginning of our relationship, you or my mentor,
because you'd been practicing spirituality for far longer than me,
and so when I first came in, you were someone
that I turned to for advice, and of course I
still do that today as a friend, but at that
time it was very much so you were sharing with
me experience insight, and so it was natural for me
(05:26):
to come to you at that time. And I've always
described it like a divorce because I think that's the
only analogy that makes sense for someone who doesn't know
what it feels like to become a monk and leave.
It feels like I got married for three years to
the love of my life and then I figured out
that it wasn't going to last and that it wasn't
going to work. So the heartbreak you'd feel from a
(05:47):
breakup or a divorce is the heartbreak I felt from
leaving the monastery. Because, let me paint a picture for everyone,
I really didn't know what I was going to do.
I think a lot of people feel like I had
a plan, or I had a strategy, or I.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Knew what I was going to do. I had no clue.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
And if I'm completely honest, I was really scared about
going back to the workplace because I was worried. I
was thinking, wait a minute, do I have to go
back into consulting or financi or business because that's what
I would have done. Will I be able to make
it in that space? How will I be able to survive?
I've been doing what I love for three years, which
is study wisdom, teach it, share, do a lot of
(06:27):
philanthropy work. That's what I've been doing. How am I
going to do that in the workplace? So I had
no clarity. I was moving back in with my parents,
which felt like a failure. I remember the community having
judgment over my decision.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Right. It wasn't like I came back to a fanfare
of no.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
There wasn't. Yeah, in a bizarre way, there were certainly
some people that were like, oh, really, you think you
can do this? And so when you didn't end up
doing it because of the health challenges and other reasons
that came up, yeah, I'm sure it would have been
a real kick in the face. And I think we
speak about this all the time in terms of plot twist,
(07:07):
but the way the journey has then unfolded is really remarkable.
But I certainly remember those early days where it was
like I just need to pay my bills, Like what
am I going to do? Like what is my core
skill set here? And I'm sure you shared it in
other places, but all the different jobs you were applying to,
all the rejections you got, we wore Yeah, we read
(07:27):
it in books all the time, but this is real,
this is real life, and for me it's been an
inspiration seeing you on this journey. And one of the
things I want to talk about in this podcast and
in the five minutes you gave me to prepare was
was this idea of the beast mindset that you can
clock into. And we speak about this all the time.
Jay has this belief that everyone can unlock this part
(07:50):
of their brain that really fulfills their potential. And I
think that in those times of challenge, that's when your
backwards against the wall, you really found out who you were,
and I guess you also found out who your friends
were in that moment.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
I always look back to a piece of advice that
Thomas Power, one of my other mentors in life, would
often say to me. He'd say that when you're in
moments of pain, that's when you'll find your potential.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
And whenever you used to.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Say that, I used to be like, yeah, yeah, all right,
like yeah, I used to be like okay, like I
know my potential. I'm pretty okay, I'll figure it out.
And then when I was in those moments, so at
that time when we're talking about right now. I was
rejected from forty companies and I didn't even get an
interview at those companies. And I'm someone who got a
first class degree, yep, and so not getting an interview
(08:40):
at forty companies. And I'm saying this not for you
to think, oh, Jay, you're amazing. I'm saying this because
I actually feel a lot of you might be in
this position right now where you're trying to make a
transition in your career. You're trying to make a new job,
you're trying to sell a new product, you're building a
new business, and all you're getting is rejection after rejection
after rejection. And that experience gave to me was two things.
(09:02):
One was all you need is one yes. All you
need is one yes. All I needed was one company, Accentia,
to say we're going to give you a shot.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, and we're going to put.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
You on a graduate scheme at twenty five, twenty six
years old, but we're going to give you a shot.
So that's one thing. And the second thing I learned
is that it's all a game of odds. Yes, it's
all about the law of odds. And what I mean
by that is it is simply as basic as the
more doors you knock on, the more open. So if
you've not had any open doors, you just haven't knocked
(09:35):
on enough. And so I think I learned those two
really critical skills. And then fast forward a few years later,
which we'll get to, when I was four months away
from being broke, it was the same principles I had
to go back to, was all you need is one yes,
and if no doors have opened, you just haven't knocked
on enough.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Well, one of the interesting things about that is in
order to knock on doors, you need humility because the
likelihood is you're going to not on the door and
it's not going to open. It's going to take that much.
And in the monastery, obviously we focus very much on
the principle of humility. And again it sounds great in
the books, but can you actually live it, Like if
this is really my service in life, and I'm obviously
(10:15):
thinking about it now, like I transition from law to
what I'm doing now, which is as a leadership coach
and an entrepreneur and trying to sell that's not natural
to me. It's really uncomfortable, actually, And the reason it's
uncomfortable is because I have to go to people and say,
would you like my service? I'm very happy to provide
the service, but yeah, I think it requires real humility
(10:37):
and continuing to do it, not from a place of desperation,
but really from a place of service. And I think
I think you nail that, and that's why, as we say,
the universe reciprocated.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, it's a really fine point you brought out, and
it's challenging because I think we operate from two places
as humans. One is passive, yes, and so we're like, oh,
it will happen when it happens. If the universe providesids,
it will work out just the way it's meant to.
And we say these phrases, but beneath them there's an
insecurity and an uncertainty. And the opposite way we function
(11:11):
as humans is we're pressured. So we think, oh my gosh,
that person's already sold their company and they're only thirty five,
and oh my gosh, that person just made one hundred
thousand dollars doing that, and oh my god that So
there's pressure. So we either function from being passive it
will happen when it's happened, or pressure, Oh my god,
it's not happening for me. And what I found is
that pressure doesn't attract success and joy, and being passive
(11:36):
doesn't attract success and joy, and the only place that
does is peace. And peace is me saying I'm going
to do everything I can and then leave the result
up to what the universe is, what God wants, whatever
the energy is around me. But I'm going to do
everything I possibly can. And it goes back to your point.
(11:57):
And by the way, I've seen you do this, and
I think it's in I wanted to talk about it
through stories that people may not be familiar with. You
were a really successful lawyer. You were doing great, and
you decided that it wasn't fulfilling you. And I actually
want to ask you about that because I think there
may be a lot of people listening right now who
are doing something where they studied for it, they were
(12:18):
educated for it, they worked hard for it, Their parents
maybe even were really impressed that they did it, and
now they're at an age where they're going I think
I want to change my career, like I don't think
this satisfies me anymore. And it's harder when you've done
something like law which took years of training, years of
building up. How did you get comfortable with giving up
(12:38):
your feeling around sunk cost bias? For anyone who doesn't know,
sunk cost bias does an economic term which means I've
already invested so much time, money, or energy down this path.
And usually what it does is it keeps you on
that path because you think I've invested too much to
let it go. That's why people don't change careers, It's
why people don't break up from relationships, It's why people
don't do any of those things. For you, what finally
(13:01):
gave you confidence to say, you know what, even though
I'm really good at law, even though I make a
really good living, even though I have a family and
two kids, I'm still going to take a risk Because
in my eyes, me going off to become a monk
was a risk, but you pivoting your career at that
age was also a risk.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
What got you there, it was a huge risk, and
it was in terms of the investment in the sunk
cost was a three year law degree, a one year LPC,
a two year training contract, and then ten years post
qualified in law. So that's a lot of years of
studying to try and become a specialist in something. And
at that point, I think two things happen. You get
the golden handcuffs, i e. The salary goes up, and
(13:40):
whilst the salary is going up, your standard of living
has also gone up. So you've then got the mortgage.
As you know, at that point, I was already married
with two kids as well, so it was a huge risk,
but I think it came. I mean, I certainly got
some courage from you, and I'm really grateful for those
walks around central London when you were in that period
of transition and you're incurring me. And I remember you
(14:01):
specifically saying, hey, Nanda, you know when you're at your
best is when you're talking to people and when you're
coaching people and when you're public speaking, So why don't
you do that? And I'm like, oroh, that's not a career.
That's not a career. Unless I'm speaking in court, that's
not a career. So you really helped me think outside
(14:21):
of the box, and you touched on the cultural nuances
and you joke about it all the time, right, like
as an Indian, it's a doctor, a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
What's the third or a failure?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Right?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Exactly, so you were already winning.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
I was already winning in life. That was My mom
was happy, my dad is, My grandparents were happy, like
I was the chosen one. When I go to family events,
and all of a sudden, what I found was they
were resisting to change, not because they didn't love me,
but simply because they'd also come to the country and
so security was their primary driver. So out of love,
they were like, why would you want to do this?
(14:55):
You're now so close to where you ultimately want to be.
But of course, I think that's where spirituality really comes in,
because it makes us think about, well, where do we
really want to be and what really makes us thrive.
So in my case, I found a huge amount of
courage from the fact that the bits that I enjoyed
in law were like when I'd talk to clients or
when I would do conferences within the legal industry or
(15:18):
business development people people people. So I was like, okay,
I like it. Fortunate enough, I managed to go ton
to a four day week. On my non working day,
I worked and I got myself qualified as an ICF
credit coach. I started working and I got the feedback,
the validation to say, this is a runner, this can work,
and so yeah, the rest is history. But it wasn't
(15:40):
easy by any means. But I often say you need
cheerleaders around you at that time because self doubt is
going to be all over you. And so I'm so
grateful to you because I really feel like you were
a pivotal person, just as I was a pivotal person
for you when you were younger at that particular time.
You reciprocated tenfold because you were there for me and
(16:01):
maybe believe it's possible.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, no, because I saw it, and I think you're
so right.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
This is why our friends are so important in being
honest with us, in noticing our strengths, being honest about
our weaknesses, noticing our values. And I always say to people,
if any of you are struggling with what you should
do for work, sometimes just go around to your friends
and meet them one on one and say, Hey, have
a really honest discussion with me. What do you think
is my number one skill? What do you think I'm
actually good at? And your friend might be like you
(16:27):
plan the best parties, like that's what you're good at,
or you know what, whenever it's whenever there's a big event,
coming up. You're really good at event planning, and all
of a sudden, I've done this with my sister, and
I've seen that my sister's always organized lots of retreats,
she's organized lots of events. She's really talented at that.
It isn't her career, and I'm constantly nudging her in
that direction and saying, hey, have you thought about wedding planning?
(16:50):
Have you thought about birthday planning? Have you thought about
event planning?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
And so.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
But what I loved about watching you make that transition
was that I think a lot of people think, oh,
when I get a million followers, then i'll make a transition.
Oh when I make X amount of money, then I'll
make a transition, And you were actually making it while
you were there, and the sign of success was good feedback.
And so I think not postponing that transition, that pivot,
(17:15):
that switch. And I love what you said because I
think this is true for everyone. You have to have
one foot in either boat. Yes, at the beginning, so
you were gone down to a four day week. One
day became coaching, Studying weekends became that going doing the exams,
the course, and when you've got one foot in each boat.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Once you're confident enough.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
You didn't take the other thing, you take the other
leap exactly, rather than what I think a lot of
us do is we've got two feet in one boat,
the other boat so far away, and you go, oh, no,
it's all about the jump. It's all about the leap,
and you kind of amp yourself up, then you jump,
and then you fall into the water, and now you're
drowning because you're like, wait a minute, I don't even
know where the other boat is. And so I don't
want to glorify risk because I think a lot of
(17:55):
people will be like, you have to take a risk,
you got to do something big, you got to take
a leap. And I'm like, well, well you've got to
be a little bit measured and a little bit practiced
as well.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I meanf you've got a mortgage to pay, it absolutely.
But I think this point around understanding the difference between
your self awareness and external feedback and getting that balance right,
because yeah, we can amp things up in our own head,
and we can think we're the greatest speaker and the
greatest coach or the greatest podcast host, but actually the validation,
of course comes from the outside world, and you know
(18:27):
if you're doing a good job, but you're going to
find out very quickly. I think you're going to find
out quickly. But you're also going to feel really good.
For me, Like, even if I was doing a good
job in law, I didn't feel good. So that for me,
that internal compass was always very clear. This wasn't what
I was meant to be doing. And we speak about
this all the time in terms of finding purpose, and
it's a big pressure, Like people come up all the
(18:48):
time saying how do I find my purpose? But it
very much is a journey and it's not going to
be something that you sit down one day, meditate and
have that aha moment, like you've got to go and
do things. Yeah, and you've got to be aware of
like what have I been doing? So you'd always say
to me, actually, none, as long as I've known you,
you've always been doing public speaking, right like whether through
(19:10):
when I met you, that's what you're doing exactly. So
that was my go to So it was an easy
thing for me to do. So it's actually knowing that
and then having someone to validate that and support you
along the way.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, I've read something recently which I think is called
the Pigmalion effect. I don't know if you've come across it,
but it's this idea that we're better at doing things
when we think people believe in us. Yes. And so
it's when they told teachers that these kids are performing well,
and so teachers started to treat them better. Yes, and
then the kids performed better even though they weren't any different.
(19:43):
And that's a quick version of it. You can check
it out. But what was really interesting about it was
we can also do that to ourselves. And so it
works when we set higher standards for ourselves. Yes, we
start treating ourselves in that way, and it goes back
to your beast mode point of you rise to your standards.
And I think a lot of us don't know what
that means, because I think when we set high standards,
(20:06):
we usually feel we fail. Yes, we usually feel, oh no,
I'm going to feel like I failed, So I might
as well just set a lower standard exactly. And one
thing I've noticed in high performers that I really appreciate
is high standards matched with high grace. And so if
you look at the best people in the world. I
love this commencement speech that Roger Federig just gave. I'm
sure you saw it. And he talks about how in
(20:28):
his career he's lost a ridiculous amount of points. I
can't remember the exact number, but he's lost a ridiculous
amount of points, like almost forty percent of points or
forty five percent of points. And you think, wait a minute,
how could one of the greatest have lost forty five
percent of points? And he says, because all I've got
to do when I lose a point is focus on
(20:49):
the next one. And he said, if I sit there
and I'm constantly thinking about the last point and how
I should have responded, and how I should have hit it,
and how I should have placed it, now all of
a sudden, my attention's gone on the next point, and
now I've lost the next point. And that just continues.
So I love that idea that greatness came from having
a high expectation of winning every point. But then they're
(21:10):
having enough grace to say, actually, if I focus on
the last point, I'm going to lose the next point
as well.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah, And I think it's interesting that you know, you
were moved by that commencement speech, because every single commencement
speech follows that same pattern. If you've noticed, yes, right
it is. It is failure to success, and yet somehow
we are surprised that all of these people have failed.
And it's the same for me. It's like if people
think Jay's failed, I'm like, yeah, he's had like crushing
(21:38):
blows along the way, but he kept going. And it's interesting,
like law, you know, is a real perfectionist mindset. It
comes from a strong academic background, and so that is
what you're judged on, and so you're not meant to
make mistakes. But as we all know, mistakes are how
you make the journey.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, and that's how you learn. It's going to happen
along the way. And I think one thing that I remember,
which was really important part of our friendship, and I
wanted to talk about certain events.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
It was definitely that.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
So I started working at Accentia, and I was working
at a client that was close by to your law firm.
So every lunchtime we'd go on like an hour walk
around London and we'd have these conversations nearly every day.
While I was at this client.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
By the way, just in case my former employers are listening,
I was I wasn't meant to have been gone for
an hour, right, I think it was probably meant to
be a client.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I think this is true for me.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
But we've gone this hour walk and these are the
conversations we'd have, and it shows you how important that
friendship is, how important that connection is. Yes, and I
think we were both looking for an escape. But the
thing is we weren't just then making our time together entertainment.
Our time together became these conversations.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
You had done your you know, you were thinking about
doing your coaching diploma, or you'd just done it at
that particular point, and I just remember this idea of
you need to invest in yourself in order to move forward.
So at the time you were really getting too psychometrics,
it was disc was the one that you would be
rolling out constantly, and then it was MBTI and more recently,
as you know, I just got qualified in a particular one.
(23:04):
And what I loved about that was it showed me
that validation is very important to me. So even from
a personality perspective, that is important to me. So how
do I process that information. I should be aware that
I'm going to be looking for that validation, but also
know that potentially it could trip me up because if
I don't get that validation, what do I do? Do
I stop? So? I think, you know, really investing in
(23:26):
yourself is so critical, and we were taught it obviously
from a spiritual perspective from a young age as we
were coming through the monastery and so on. But even
in normal business life, the moment you stop learning and growing,
I think, is the moment you start to feel like
you're losing momentum in life and lose that joy.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
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use the code on Purpose. Well, what's really interesting is
(25:19):
that when you go to school, right, you start nursery
at whatever three four years old, and then you're basically
at school to eighteen. And if you go to university
or college, then you're there till twenty one or maybe
a bit older if you do law or medicine or
whatever it may be, or a postcrad. And what's really
interesting is that from the moment you're three or four
years old, Every year up until twenty one is pretty
(25:42):
much mapped out. Yes, so you don't actually have to
think when you complete fourth grade what comes next? You
go to fifth grade, and then you go sixth grade,
and then you go to seventh and then eighth and
then ninth and tenth.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
And you never had to think. There's no ownership, ownershment.
There's no ownership.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
And what ends up happening is as soon as you
get to twenty one and you let's say you get
a job, you can grad job, you start a job. Now,
all of a sudden, your whole trajectory is up to you.
Do you stay at this place? Do you network for
a promotion? Do you take on extra curricula? Do you
quit your job and get promoted somewhere else?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Do you switch?
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Do you all of a sudden at twenty one years old,
it's like, well, now we're not going to tell you
what to do for the next fifty years. And so
I think everyone is at a disadvantage, yes, because you
haven't had to use your brain for all of those years.
All of a sudden, you have to use your brain,
and now you're scared, so you're asking everyone around you.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
What should I do?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Is this the right path for me? Should I quit
my job? Should I get married? Should I not? Should
I write? And that confusion. I have a lot of
empathy because of that, because we weren't made to make
decisions early enough.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Now.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
I'm not saying that a four year old should be
deciding what they're studying at university. That's not the point.
But there has to start becoming a little bit of
ownership about direction and about choice, because that's how you
build confidence in yourself. So most of us have never
made a made your life decision until twenty five thirty
years old. No wonder we're crippled by the anxiety and
(27:05):
the stress and the pressure that comes with that because
you didn't have to think about anything that was that
complicated for like eighteen years.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
It actually links really well to the discussion we're having
last night around so as I mentioned, I've got two kids,
and you know, the question is how do you raise
kids in this world? Oh? Yeah, it was a really
fascinating discussion. This idea of pushing them to take responsibility,
you know, not remaining under the shelter of your parents,
(27:33):
because although it's going to be uncomfortable for them. That's
the only way they're going to learn. That's the way
you're going to get the life skills to be an
independent thinker, to be someone who's really going to go
out and be able to make those difficult decisions. Also,
self awareness, Yes, you can get through a psychometric but
the real self awareness is going to come through challenges. Yeah,
and putting yourself in situations is like, am I going
(27:56):
to sink or swim? So I remember you saying this
to me when I was talking about my own son,
is like, No, there's got to be a certain degree
of challenge. He needs to know that if he falls,
you're there to catch him, but you're not there like
holding him. Yes, because otherwise he's not going to learn
to stand.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, it's knowing that. I think all of us need
to know that we're loved whether we win or we lose. Yes,
that's what all of us want. All of us want
to know that I am loved or all of us
want to know that you are loved whether you win
or you lose. And so your child, yourself, your partner,
(28:32):
what they want from you is that you love them
no matter what. But they need to be able to
win or to lose of their own choices, of their
own accord.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
And I remember one meeting that we had.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I remember when you actually flew out with me to
New York when I first moved there, and you slept
on my couch. Yes, And I remember, well, maybe i'll explain,
Maybe you can tell him what you had for breakfast, because.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
I think it was a banana from Whole Foods. So
Jay's cooking skills are awful. My cooking skills are one
one tier below that. So we were just having conversation.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Now I think we're on the same level.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
Okay, Yeah, I mean I could pick out the banana,
But no, I was coming out to New York and
I was expecting, like, you know, the Huppton post thing
had just happened. It was actually it was a beautiful apartment,
like it was you know, it was a one bed,
it was, it was it was nice, like five hundred feet. Yeah,
it was cozy, I think, I think is the right
way to define it. But yeah, I was there. I
(29:28):
was there, sleeping on your couch. And it's beautiful to
think where you've come from that particular point. But go on,
you were going to say there was something particularly about
that meeting.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
No, I was just going to say that it was
one thing that you realize as you live life is
that life becomes the stories. Yes, And I remember a
few years before that, I was at a friend's wedding
in Ibitha, Yeah, and I was sitting having dinner on
the beach at my friend's wedding, and I was sitting
(29:59):
with this man who has around seventy years old, and
he was sitting there almost like in a movie scene
of He was in one of those beach rocking chairs.
There was a little fire pit that we were around
with me and my wife, some of our Janevie, and
someone else from the wedding, and we were sitting with
this man and he just had these crazy life stories.
And I remember sitting there and just thinking, I really
(30:19):
hope that when i'm his age that I'll have stories
to tell, and not stories to tell to the world,
even just stories to tell to my friends. And I
think what happens in our busy, distracted life, the events
in our life become events where everyone's there. Whereas we
have a lot we talk about this a lot that
as I have got older, group events are great, but
it's the one on one investments over the years that
(30:42):
give you stories and memories.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Who remembers the.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Big birthday party that one hundred people were at or
fifty I don't ever think about those things. I don't
talk about those things. But I can remember when you
were sleeping on the couch and we were waking up
and we were walking to the you know, the grocery
store picking up groceries coming back like I can remember that,
or I can remember the walk we used to go on.
And I think it's so important that as we get older,
I think sometimes we think I want that big birthday
(31:05):
party again, I want that feeling of being a kid again.
And it's almost like those one to one relationships are
so powerful. And I think one of the things I
really value about our friendship is I think it's become
harder for men to find these relationships in our community
and outside. It doesn't matter whether you're in a spiritual
community or not. It's just harder for men to find connection.
(31:27):
And I think for us, one thing that really helped
was you were always really vulnerable and honest and open
about your life when we first got to know each other,
and as you were my mentor It was very new
for me because mentors and teachers are generally people who
you think have it all together and you're learning because
they have it all together. And not only do I
(31:48):
disagree with that, you helped burst that bubble very early
on because you'd be really open about your challenges or
whatever you were going through. And I try and do
that with my community today. I'm really open and honest
about well. I always talk about how like me and
my wife don't have a perfect marriage. There's loads of
stuff when we'll talk about it, or you know, I
haven't had a career where everything's been easy, but I
find that as men it's harder. How have you found
(32:11):
that over time, and like, how have you navigated that
and what are your thoughts on male friendship and how
you strengthen that bond because I think a lot of
men are feeling lonely right now in the world.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
Yeah, so, you know, the definition of kind of the
modern man is like a hotly contested debate and just
this idea of vulnerability. For me, I think I was
naturally wired like that, Like I like honesty and transparency,
and you know, if you're sincerely asking, I don't see
why I wouldn't be open. Actually, I think I've learned
(32:43):
the opposite. I think I was probably too open in
this world. And so something that I've learned over time
is you can't place one hundred percent faith and trust
in someone when you meet them for the first time.
You know, it's a process that you have to build
over time.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
That's a hard lesson as well.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
It is a hard lesson because and it's a painful lesson.
But we spoke about this in the past as well, like,
you know, would you want it the other way? Would
you want to be so closed and then gradually gradually
open up. I feel like, yes, there's a risk to
the way that I am. People may judge me for
being open about things, but actually I think it's it's
(33:21):
the way forward because it's what feels natural for me.
And obviously as I've got older, it's about understanding the
right people, the right time, the right place, and ultimately,
am I being vulnerable to serve that person? Because one
thing I've learned with coaching is sometimes people are vulnerable
really just to unload, right, And it shouldn't be about that.
(33:41):
It should be very much about I'm trying to serve
that person. If I can be relatable and show them
I'm not on a pedal staal. I've gone through similar challenges.
But this isn't about me, it's about you. I think
that can be really helpful and you don't need to
be a coach for that. I'm talking about basic because
you talked about friendships. I think that's where friendship comes from.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
And I think that's also how you don't become harsh
in a world that may feel harsh, like I would
rather turn up fully as I am consciously and then
however someone responds to that, Now I'm clear on where
we're at, yes, Whereas if I come all cagy and
holding back, now, I don't know whether that person's mirroring
my energy or they might be hiding something. And so
(34:22):
if I come out and I'm just fully myself and
I'm loving and I'm trusting and I'm open, then I
get a quicker sense of where someone's at and whether
our energy matches, not whether they're a good or bad person,
just on whether our frequency matches. Whereas if I lower
my frequency, thinking I'm protecting myself now, actually I'm working
against myself because I can't quickly figure out and I
(34:43):
think That's what I look at, is what's the pace
of figuring it out, like when you can speed that
up because you're fully yourself. Now you have a great
sense of Okay, trust this person. I can see where
my barriers are with this individual. And I think setting
boundaries has become such a healthy thing for adult friendships
as well.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
I think we talk about this a lot.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
When you grow up in a big community, everyone thinks
they know you, and everyone claims to know you, and
everyone claims to be your friend, and it's really hard,
and you know, sometimes people can turn oh I went
to college with that person, or I went to school
with that person too. Oh no, no, I knew that
person really intimately. And so I think it's really important
that we set healthy boundaries. I think what's helped me
with my male friendships. And I have a lot of
(35:24):
young male friends who guys that I mentored like you
were mentoring me at the time. And I think for me,
it's always been these one on ones. I think it's
really easy as a bunch of guys to hang out,
watch your game, whatever it may be. But when you
can have these one on ones where there's space for
both of you to truly put the guard down, and
it's almost like taking your armor off. Like the thing is, men,
(35:45):
you've got to recognize that there is a desire to
be strong and be this warrior. But at the end
of the day, you've got to take your helmet off,
you've got to put the shield down, you've got to
put the sword down, you've got to take the armor off.
And that's when you can see each other's wounds and
be open about it and talk about it. And I
think I consider myself to be a warrior mindset, as
you were talking about earlier. But a big part of
(36:05):
that warrior mindset is also having that safe space where
you don't have to have the shield and the guard
up all day long and you can finally put it down.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Is that changed for you over time?
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I think I dealt with that in the beginning of
my career, where I had to be so intense about
growing and building and it's not about being mean, it's
about having a winner's mindset. I think there's a difference
between having a winner's mindset being mean and harsh. And
I was developing that winner's mindset, and I realized that
it took me a long while to realize how to
(36:35):
be with my wife and still have a winner's mindset,
but recognize it shouldn't be projected onto her.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
How do you reconcile that winner's mindset and that drive
and that ambition with the spiritual principles that you live by,
because people externally would feel like that's a real contradiction.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
So how do you do that.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
I think there's a difference between being ambitious and aggressive. Okay,
I think you can be an ambitious without being aggressive.
I think aggression is something that spills over on to
other people. It's how you treat other people. It's how
you greet other people. It's how people feel when they're
around you. They feel scared, there's fear. Aggression is ambition
(37:14):
in its lowest form. And then ambition is something about you.
It's now your expectation of yourself. It's your desire for yourself.
It's what you expect and want of yourself. Aggression is
when you want everyone else to now mirror that. And
I actually remember Gorannga Das, who's my monk teaching. Of
course you know him very well as well. He actually
taught me this very early on. Because for anyone who
(37:37):
knows him as you do. He has an impeccable schedule,
so he wakes up at two am every day, meditates
for two hours before everyone wakes up to meditate, and
then will meditate, then go and cook for all the monks,
then come back. So my point is he's a superhero
as the superhuman, and anyone who tries to imitate him fails.
(37:58):
I've been there, hands hands up, been there. But the
more important thing is he told me that really early on,
that he had to realize that his expectations had to
be of himself, and that a good leader doesn't create
high expectations for others, but operates at the highest values
and expectations for themselves, and everyone rises to that because
(38:20):
they see the example. So anyway, going back to what
we were talking about with this spiritual point, for me,
ambition and spirituality should never have been put as opposites. Yeah,
and somewhere in our narrative, and this is probably one
of my favorite things. The famous quote that goes around
is money is the root of all evil, and everyone
(38:41):
knows it. You hear it everywhere, but the actual text
says the love of.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Money is the root of all evils.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
That's a really massive piece of context that is missed
in one of the most famous quotes and money of all.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
That also, the money is God's energy, correct and therefore
and therefore can be used in in service just like
everything else. But I wanted to talk about how do
you continue to live in that spirit of gratitude like
all of the achievements I've witnessed really since well when
did it all kick off? Twenty sixteen? I guess so,
(39:16):
like in the last nine years, every single time there'd
be something huge happened, like a huge guest comes onto
the podcast, I would always say to you, bro, like
this is nuts, Like this is nuts. Remember we're in
New York, Like this is nuts, And you'll always come
back and say, yeah, Bro, this is just the beginning,
Like that is your line, This is just the beginning.
(39:38):
So I really want to tap it because I don't
know what I'm ever going to get this opportunity again,
but to tap into that mindset of this is just
the beginning. What does that mean for you? And where
do you get that consistent drive and determination Because on
one level, you've made it right. You have a great family,
(39:58):
you've got great friends, including me, You've got everything that
you need, but you are you know, you continue to
reinvent yourself. So what is your driver? Where does that
come from?
Speaker 1 (40:10):
I really believe that if you get too familiar with greatness,
beauty or success, that makes you feel unsuccessful. And what
I mean by that and this idea of just the
beginning is I look at my life today as if
I would if I was looking at it from twenty
(40:30):
years ago. So when we were sitting up there in
the iheartbooth just upstairs right now, and there's a picture
of my podcast art next to like Malcolm Gladwell, who
I love and I grew up reading, and he's been
a guest on the show. And then there's Breakfast Club
with Charlemagne, who I love, and there's just all these
amazing people. I have to look at that from eighteen
(40:53):
year old Ja, yes, and twenty five year old Ja,
because when I look at it as that, my mind
is blown and I'm like, no way, Like I can't
believe this is my life. And when I sat down
on the stage, I was like I took a moment
just personally. It wasn't in front of it was internally
on just like how grateful I was to be able
to have this opportunity. And my point is I have
to look at it from the kid who watched Fresh Prints.
(41:13):
I have to look at it from the kid who
use this person's product. I have to look at it
from the kid who watched the tennis match and now
gets to interview Novakdjokovic. I've got to watch it as
the kid who watched a movie and now gets to
sit down with Michael B. Jordan, Like I have to
watch it from that perspective. But if I only look
at it from this perspective of oh, here I am,
this is my life. Now, this is normality, all of
(41:34):
a sudden it will start to feel really insignificant. And
I think that's what happens a lot where whether you
get to wake up and look at a beautiful view
every morning, looking at your partner that once you believed
when you first met them was the most beautiful person
on the planet, if you don't look at that way again,
no wonder you get distracted and whatever else. Is so
for me, it's always looking at it from it's just
(41:56):
the beginning, in the sense of let me fast forward,
let me rewind, and then the other it's just the
beginning is going I've got to have the beginner's mindset
even in this moment, because otherwise this is all going
to go away. I've got a tree to it.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
I've got to have the same hunger.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
I've got to have the same hunger as I had
on day one.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Yeah, it was Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right, and
I've seen I've seen that if you get too comfortable
in any given situation, very quickly, that dies and you
just have to keep doing. You have to keep doing
different things. What I wanted to ask about that was
how do you go and apply that? So I think
for you, people listening may think, well, jeah, that's all
(42:34):
right for you, because you know, every every month you
seem to have another epic moment, and yeah, sure you
can reflect back on eighteen year old Jay. So practically,
what does that look like for someone is and you
gave an insight into that, maybe it's your partner or
your kid's eyes, or you know, the view of just
you know, walking past the tree that you see every
single day with gratitude. But essentially is what we're saying,
(42:56):
It is having real gratitude for what you have and
and zoning into that in a real way.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
I think it's romanticizing your life. You have to be
really present in it to see how beautiful every moment is,
and not every moment is beautiful. But I think when
things were tough, i'd say something else. I wouldn't be
saying this, like, I don't think when things are tough,
I'm like, oh, be grateful for what you have. I
think that can be bad advice and can kind of
be off putting as well. When things were bad, I'd
be like, I can't wait to tell this story one day.
(43:23):
So when I was going through the failures and things
were going wrong, I'd say, I can't wait to tell
this story one day when I get to the other side. Yes,
And that gives you momentum to get to the other
side because you can't wait to tell that story. And
so I think it's a mix of mindsets and tools
that you bring out in different moments. So when things
are going well, slow down and smell the roses. There's
a reason why I smell the flowers. There's a reason
(43:44):
why that phrase is famous because when things are going well,
you can just move through them like it doesn't matter.
But when things are going badly, if you say to
yourself I can't wait to tell this story on the
other side. All of a sudden, you get momentum from
the other side rather than being like, oh god, this
is the worst thing I've ever gone through.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
But do you feel that you do celebrate your successes?
So we talk about football a lot, and we talk
about sport generally quite a lot. And we talk about
you know, world champions who have won Premier League after
Premier League and they say they lifted the cup and
then immediately it was like I enjoyed it for like
ten seconds and then it was on to the next thing.
So what does it mean to celebrate success? How do
(44:22):
you celebrate success?
Speaker 1 (44:23):
I used to have an amazing football coach that would say,
if you win, celebrate for a night and then get
back to training.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
And if you lose, cry for a night and then
get back to training great. And I love that advice
because it put the emphasis on get back to training yes.
And So I've had some amazing successes in my life
and I don't feel they've been fleeting, but they've just
been a marker that you're on the path. And the
greatest success, the greatest joy you're celebrating success comes on
(44:51):
the pursuit.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
It's the journey.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
It is that journey like that, oh you know, it's
a journey, not the end. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah, And it's like that is the part that you
have to celebrate. And that's what I mean, celebrating the
moment and going this makes my story better. Celebrating the
moment and saying I'm going to stop and appreciate this
moment of sitting on stage. Let me stop and appreciate
the fact that this is happening for me. And by
the way, sure it's easier now, but all of those
things were happening. You know. It wasn't like the first
(45:16):
day I did it. It was this either going back
to the right the beginning, when I've loaded my first
video and it got you know, five hundred views in
my first month on YouTube, by the thousand subscribers.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
I was so happy about that.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
I remember I never looked.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
At the thousand subscribers and went, why is it not
a million? And so it was there then, and I
remember our friends were like, well done, mate, this is
probably it. Yeah, no, no, no, it was this is
probably it.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
No, I don't swearming you've done it as you've hit
the cat.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
So but yeah, anyway, we could do this for hours.
I've got to run to main stage now.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
None that.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
I am so grateful to you for joining me on
a last minute request. It's been a really fun conversation.
We'll have to do this again. Amazing, And I'm so
glad you shared your journey because I think there's so
much for everyone to learn with whether our journeys are
public or private, whether whether they're you know, in the.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Public eye or not.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
We all have to make these decisions, and I think
you shared so many great valuable insights today.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
So thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Main Stage weights mayeah, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
If you love this episode, you love my conversation with
doctor Joe Dispenser on why stress and overthinking negatively impacts
your brain and heart and how to change your habits
that are on autopilot.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Listen to it right now.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
How many times do we have to forget until we
start forgetting and start remembering, that's the moment of change.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Who cares how many times
Speaker 1 (46:40):
You fell off the bicycle if you ride the bicycle,
now you ride the bike.
Host
Jay Shetty
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